Latest / Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney / Is your wedding business truly accessible? With Lisa Heywood

Transcript

Is your wedding business truly accessible? With Lisa Heywood · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

0:00
Lisa: I have a question on my booking form that specifically asks, you know, whether
0:05
there's any access requirements and it starts that conversation and I think
0:09
that's one of the most important things in accessibility is to start the conversation
0:14
because especially I think if you're a disabled person, it's quite refreshing
0:18
for somebody else to say, well, what can I do to make things easier for you?
0:23
Becca: I'm Becca Pountney, Wedding Business Marketing Expert,
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Speaker and Blogger, and you're listening to the Wedding Pros
0:30
Who Are Ready to Grow podcast.
0:32
I'm here to share with you actionable tips, strategies and real life
0:35
examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level.
0:39
If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion
0:43
and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business, doing what you
0:46
love, then you're in the right place.
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Let's get going with today's episode.
0:52
Today I'm chatting with Lisa Heywood, owner of Folk Dance with Lisa.
0:55
She runs fun, inclusive barn dances and Ceilidh's for weddings,
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parties and community events.
1:00
I've actually attended a Ceilidh run by Lisa and I promise
1:03
you it's a whole lot of fun.
1:05
In her day job, Lisa works to make the music industry more accessible
1:08
and she recently realized that she should be bringing her learnings
1:11
into the wedding industry too.
1:13
So she reached out to me about coming onto the podcast and I knew I had to say yes.
1:17
Lisa, welcome to the podcast.
1:20
It's lovely to be here.
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Thank you so much for agreeing to do this.
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I'm really looking forward to having this conversation.
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There's so much for us to dive into.
1:28
But before we talk about accessibility, first of all, I want
1:32
to understand a little bit more about you and your wedding business.
1:35
Because how on earth does one end up Working in barn dances.
1:41
Okay.
1:41
Lisa: So it's a bit of a family thing.
1:44
So my parents were both in a Caley band.
1:46
So I spent a lot of my childhood sort of tagging along to their gigs.
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I sometimes reflect.
1:53
on how I have been to more weddings in my lifetime than any normal
1:57
person has because, you know, ever since I was sort of a teenager,
2:01
I used to help out with the band.
2:03
And then I got into doing what I do now in sort of 2010.
2:06
I never expected that I'd sort of take on the baton, but yeah, I
2:11
sort of got into it at university.
2:13
So my role in the band is as the caller, which means I teach the dances.
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So it was kind of like a cross between like an MC and a dance teacher.
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But really the focus is on facilitating people having fun rather than, you know,
2:28
being like a hard taskmaster making sure that they get all the dance moves right.
2:32
So yeah,
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Becca: that's how it all started.
2:35
And is there a significant difference between a barn dance and a Ceilidh
2:40
because I've always thought they're kind of one and the same thing.
2:42
What is the difference?
2:43
Lisa: It really depends who you ask and where you are.
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So Ceilidh, as you may guess from the spelling, is not an English word.
2:50
It's a Gaelic word.
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Scottish Gaelic, if it's got the DHS on the end or Irish Gaelic if
2:57
it's just ends with an I and yeah.
3:00
Barn dances is kind of more of the English term for it, although sometimes
3:04
people associate it with kind of Americana and like hoedowns as well,
3:08
but I think in a practical sense.
3:12
they're pretty much the same model of thing.
3:15
The dances, the dance moves,
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Becca: the music might be slightly different.
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Love it.
3:18
And it was so much fun when I did it.
3:21
So just talk me through, if someone is listening to this and they're thinking,
3:23
sounds like a fun idea for a client's wedding, what does it actually involve?
3:29
It's you, it's a band.
3:30
Talk to us about that.
3:31
So I've got my
3:32
Lisa: band, the Rainbow Folk, which we've got a couple of different lineups.
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We usually go out as a two piece or a three piece.
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And yeah, basically we turn up an hour, an hour and a half.
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Before we needed in the reception and then we'll just bring
3:44
our own PA system and lights.
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We set up in the room where the Kaylee is going to happen.
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And then we usually do two sets of 45 minutes or an
3:55
hour with a break in between.
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Quite often people choose to maybe cut the cake in between the sets or,
4:02
you know, have a little bit of food.
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And yeah, basically we just get up all the guests up on the dance
4:07
floor and we usually kick in sort of after the first dance.
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Or we can do a first dance that is a Kayleigh dance if the couple prefer that.
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And it's just about getting everyone up, having fun, laughing together,
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like the number of smiles that you see on the dance floor is amazing.
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So it's just a great thing to get everyone sort of bonding and
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Becca: breaking the ice.
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Is a really great way to get people on the dance floor.
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And, you know, sometimes you swap partners or you dance with different people
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and it just brings everyone together.
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All of the weddings I've ever attended that have had barn dancers
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or Kayleys have been so much fun.
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So if you're listening to this, definitely check out Lisa and her band.
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If you're interested in bringing something different to your client's wedding days.
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Now, at least as I mentioned in the introduction, this isn't all you do.
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You also have your day job and work.
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I believe that that's in the music industry.
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Just tell us a little bit more about what you do in your day job.
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Lisa: So I work for an organization called Drake Music, who work at the intersection
5:03
of disability, music and technology.
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So it started off as kind of a project to make adapted instruments
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using technology to make music more accessible to people who couldn't
5:14
access traditional instruments.
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And it's kind of blossomed into this many armed project.
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So I've been working in the artist development arm of it.
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So it's working with professional disabled musicians to help them sort of.
5:30
advance their careers, explore new creative ideas.
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And I've very much been embedded in access since the beginning of
5:39
my work with the organization.
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But I've actually just taken on a new role literally this week as the access
5:48
coordinator for the organization, which means that I get to do lots
5:52
of stuff around policy and processes to do with making things accessible.
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Becca: I think it sounds fascinating your day job and I think it's so so
5:59
important that we look at these things.
6:01
Now there's a couple of words that we've been using That I think we're gonna be
6:04
using a lot through this episode, and I wanted to make sure that we're clear
6:08
for the listeners exactly what we're talking about and what we're covering.
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So the first of those words is disabled or disability.
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So when we talk about that in this episode, whatcha meaning by that phrase?
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So I think when
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Lisa: people think of a disabled person, they automatically probably think of
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a wheelchair user that's kind of, you know, the little dis disabled symbol
6:29
that you see on toilet doors and stuff.
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But it's so much broader than that.
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And so.
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At this point, I want to introduce the idea of the social model of
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disability, which is the idea that people aren't disabled by
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something being wrong with them.
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They're disabled by society not being accessible to them.
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So we tend to kind of grow up with what we call the medical model of
6:54
disability, which is the idea that there's something wrong with a person
6:57
and that thing needs to be fixed, and then everything would be all right.
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Whereas the social model says, well, actually it's, you
7:06
know, it's okay to be deaf.
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It's okay to, you need to use a wheelchair.
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That's not the problem.
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The problem is that society isn't accessible.
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So the fact that we don't have things that are BSL interpreted, or we don't
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have hearing loops in our venues, or you know, we don't have ramps you
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know, the fact that there are stairs.
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is disabling to somebody who is using a wheelchair.
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But if we provide a ramp or a lift, then we can make that accessible to them.
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Becca: Okay, great.
7:35
So what we're talking about today then is more of the social model of
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disability, which is where people are facing barriers in society, which then
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brings us onto this accessibility idea.
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What do you mean by accessibility?
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How are we helping people overcome some of those different barriers?
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Lisa: So accessibility, again, it's a hugely broad area.
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But it's basically how can we overcome those barriers or how can
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we remove those barriers so that.
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you know, a disabled person can access a service or a
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building or something like that.
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And some people might think of accessibility in terms of the law,
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you know, we've got the Equalities Act, for example, that means that
8:15
certain public buildings have to be accessible to wheelchair users.
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But to me, you know, we need to go beyond just the letter of
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the law and the bare minimum.
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It's about, you know, Disabled people having an equal experience
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to a non disabled person.
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So, for example, your building might be wheelchair accessible via
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the back entrance, where there's a ramp or there's level access.
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Thinking about somebody getting married, If the person getting married is a
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wheelchair user, do they really want to have to go through the back entrance,
8:51
through the kitchen, or whatever, to get to, you know, where they're going?
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We want to make them feel as special as a non disabled person
9:00
would feel on their wedding day.
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So it's, it's not just about, you know, getting married.
9:05
getting the bare minimum.
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It's about actually giving them an equal experience,
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Becca: I think.
9:10
Absolutely.
9:10
Now, as we spoke about before, you work in the wedding industry, you've
9:14
been to lots of weddings, and I know that you're working hard yourself
9:17
to try and make sure your wedding business itself is more accessible.
9:21
So what things have you put in place?
9:23
What are you doing to ensure that you are accessible to all?
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Lisa: So I'd say there's two kind of two categories of access that I think about.
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One is just general things, which can really apply to anyone.
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So So it's about putting information on your website about accessibility, what,
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what you can offer, who can people contact if they have a question, also making sure
9:45
that your website itself is accessibility.
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And that's includes things about like the contrast of the colors.
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you know, can people read it easily?
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Are your links set up in such a way that somebody using a
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screen reader could access them?
10:01
So one of the things that screen readers do is they try to replicate how
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a sighted person might use a website.
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So if you're thinking about you go on a website, you don't
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read every single bit of text.
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You're likely to just jump to You know, the link to the page, which
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has the information that you want.
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So screen readers have a mode where they can just jump through all the links.
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If all of your links say, click here, that is not enough information
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to know where that page is leading.
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So if you've got links within the text on your website, you need to make
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sure that they actually say, I dunno, they just say something that gives
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an idea of where that link goes to.
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Might be.
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More information about my prices.
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rather than click here and that's the only bit that's linked for information
10:58
Becca: about my prices.
11:00
Great example and that's something that we could be implementing almost immediately.
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I'm already thinking about places on my website where I probably have just got
11:08
click here and haven't thought about click here for more resources, click
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here for more information about me.
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So I think that's something that we can all go and reflect on.
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And what about the events themselves?
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I know on your website you say that you make your and your Kayleys accessible
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to all to be able to join in with.
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What are you doing practically there?
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Lisa: So one of the, the first steps, and again, this is kind of something
11:29
that everybody can do is that I have a question on my booking form that
11:33
specifically asks about any, you know, whether there's any access requirements.
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And that helps me to be prepared to know, you know, what, what I need to
11:44
do and it starts that conversation.
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I think that's one of the most important things in accessibility is to start
11:51
the conversation because especially I think if you're a disabled person
11:55
and you're constantly having to ask, Oh, can you accommodate this?
11:59
Can you change this?
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It's quite refreshing for somebody else to say, well, what can I do
12:05
to make things easier for you?
12:07
So, you know, that, that has opened up some really interesting
12:12
questions with my clients.
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So I've had people who have said, can you keep giving the instructions
12:16
all the way through the dance?
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Because, you know, we've got people with memory problems.
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Who, you know, will need prompting all the way through.
12:26
Or I've had clients say, just be aware that I'm not going to do
12:31
every dance, even though I'm one of the people getting married.
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Because, like, I have, you know, sort of issues with energy levels.
12:38
You know, I don't want to feel pressured.
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to be in every dance.
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And so, you know, I use those to help prepare me.
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And then also I've done quite a lot of research by talking to disabled
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people to find out what, you know, sort of accommodations I can make.
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So I run a group for other disabled people.
13:01
people working in Caley's and Barn Dances.
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I've had people come and do talks for me about, for example,
13:06
wheelchair access at Caley's.
13:09
And then I'm also, this is definitely kind of going above and beyond, but I'm
13:12
currently running a research project, which is a survey for disabled people who
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have been to Caley's to see, you know, are there any good examples of access?
13:21
What sort of barriers do they face?
13:23
And hopefully that's going to give us a much better idea of what sort of changes.
13:27
We can make
13:28
Becca: incredible.
13:28
You're doing so much great work, Lisa.
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And again, I think there's so much here that all of us can start
13:32
putting into our own businesses.
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Just a simple question on a booking form that leads to a conversation.
13:37
So if you're listening to this episode, you may realize already that you need
13:41
a pen and paper to start noting down some of this stuff, because there are
13:44
so many great ideas that Maybe you haven't thought about yet that you might
13:47
want to implement into your business.
13:48
So go grab your piece of paper, pause the podcast episode, and let's
13:52
get that to do list written down.
13:54
Now we talk about how important it is to start the conversation, Lisa,
13:56
but I think this is actually where lots of wedding business owners
14:00
and just society in general stop.
14:02
because they're actually afraid of getting the conversation wrong.
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And I know even just preparing for this podcast, it's really
14:08
important to me to get it right.
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It's not an area that I have anywhere near as much knowledge about as you do.
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And so I think sometimes we're scared of saying the wrong thing
14:17
or using the wrong language.
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So have you got any pitfalls, things that we can avoid or encouragements
14:22
for us to have these conversations?
14:23
Lisa: So I think the first thing is just to remember that you know, anybody
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who is disabled, they are the experts in their own access requirements.
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So just don't make assumptions.
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Don't think, Oh, this person is a wheelchair user.
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So they must need this.
14:43
You can certainly make suggestions and say, Oh, we could offer this, or we
14:46
could offer this, but don't kind of say, I know that you need this because
14:51
actually they might not need it.
14:54
So.
14:55
The really important thing in having that conversation is just let it be guided
14:59
by the person that you're talking to.
15:01
I think, you know, in general, when we're talking about language, for example, if
15:05
you're talking about it on social media or something like that, my first thing
15:09
would, don't be afraid to say disabled.
15:12
Most people prefer that term to things which, terms which dance
15:17
around the subjects like differently abled or, you know, things like that.
15:22
Again, going back to the social model, you know, it's society
15:25
which is disabling people.
15:26
So It's fair to say that somebody is disabled by the barriers that they face.
15:32
And again, on that note, you know, try to avoid focusing on, you
15:36
know, the sort of deficit model or somebody's medical diagnosis.
15:40
You know, the idea that somebody suffers from something or is wheelchair bound,
15:47
you know, because actually wheelchairs can be really, you know, freeing for
15:51
somebody who, you know, needs that.
15:54
So we might say a wheelchair user.
15:59
The other thing that's useful to know is the difference between person
16:03
first and identity first language.
16:07
And this is one of those areas where the sort of best practice has maybe
16:12
gone back and forth a bit over the last few years, which is maybe why
16:15
people are feeling a bit confused.
16:18
So person first language would be, for example, to say a person
16:22
with autism, whereas identity first would be an autistic person.
16:27
And the main thing to remember is it's just a very personal choice.
16:31
There is no one right answer.
16:34
Some people prefer different language.
16:37
The one thing I would say is I noticed that there's a general trend
16:40
that in the UK people tend to prefer identity first language and in
16:46
the US there seems to be more of a preference for person first language.
16:52
So in the US I see a lot of people talking from the disability community
16:56
saying person with a disability, whereas in the UK, you'd be more likely to
17:01
find people saying disabled person.
17:04
Becca: Really helpful.
17:04
And I think particularly the part around not bringing it as a negative.
17:08
So just that example of saying wheelchair bound really stands out to me because it
17:13
just sounds like this person has no life.
17:15
They're stuck in this wheelchair, they're locked into it, but actually they don't.
17:19
just a wheelchair user, right?
17:21
And I think when we see the Paralympics coming up soon, and I'm
17:26
looking forward to my kids watching that and just seeing the incredible
17:30
athletes doing incredible things.
17:32
They don't feel bound by a wheelchair.
17:35
They are absolutely incredible people.
17:37
So I think that's a super helpful thing.
17:39
Now, talking about these things is one thing, Doing them is another.
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And I think one of the other pitfalls I'm scared people fall into, particularly in
17:47
our industry, is this idea of tokenism or saying they're doing something, but then
17:52
it actually not being particularly useful.
17:55
Now, I knew we were having this conversation and this situation
17:59
happened to me yesterday, Lisa, that I wanted to share with you to just
18:01
give an example of where I think we can go wrong with some of this stuff.
18:05
So yesterday with my family, I was visiting a very well known theme park.
18:08
I'm not going to mention the name of it, And they're clearly having a drive
18:12
to be more accessible, which is great.
18:14
So I'm going to start with the two positive things I saw.
18:16
So one of the positive things I saw, they've changed one of their film clips
18:20
that they show in their 4D cinema.
18:22
And I noticed one of the characters.
18:25
In that children's film clip only had one arm, right?
18:28
There was no mention of that.
18:29
That just was what it was.
18:30
And I was like, this is great because it's representation.
18:33
There's no mention of it.
18:34
It's not tokenistic.
18:34
It's just happening as part of everyday life in this movie.
18:37
The second great thing I saw was one of the shows that we
18:41
went to had a BSL sign language interpreter interpreting that show.
18:46
There was a sign up saying there's BSL.
18:48
And this one at this time is going to be interpreted.
18:51
So not every show is interpreted, but there was one and it was
18:53
clearly obvious which one it was.
18:55
Okay.
18:55
So there were the really two positive things, which I think were great
18:58
now for the slightly less great one.
19:00
So we went on this ride and to get on the ride, you have to queue
19:03
up all around these different steps, all around this thing.
19:06
So there is absolutely no way a wheelchair user is going to
19:09
be able to get on that ride.
19:10
But I saw, as we were queuing up on the ride, there's been a big sign saying,
19:14
you know, wheelchair access via the lift.
19:17
Okay.
19:17
Now I, I'm not a wheelchair user.
19:19
I was not there with anyone who's wheelchair user.
19:21
So that wasn't something I needed to do.
19:22
I queued up in the line.
19:25
We queued up for a long time.
19:26
And as we got nearer the front of the line, we were
19:29
queuing up alongside said lift.
19:32
And so my children are asking me about this lift.
19:34
I'm like, Oh, that's for the wheelchair users so they can get up the stairs.
19:37
And as we were talking, we were literally stood right by this lift, the
19:39
lift doors opened and a man and a lady who was a wheelchair user were there.
19:45
Now they weren't with a member of staff.
19:47
And so they just, these lift doors opened and they were just
19:49
confronted with this massive queue of people right in front of them.
19:53
No space to be able to get out of this lift.
19:55
Just me and my kids stood there like trying to shuffle out of
19:58
the way to let them through.
19:59
So they then come out the lift, but now there's maybe 15 people
20:03
between the lift and the front of the line to go on the ride.
20:08
So I'm thinking, how on earth are they supposed to get through?
20:11
Then they said, Oh, they said to us to go to this separate entrance bit.
20:15
So we saw this chain.
20:15
So I helped them get to there.
20:17
And then the attendant at the front of the line, who's kind of
20:20
loading people onto the roller coaster, couldn't even see them.
20:24
there at all.
20:24
So they're just kind of hovering there.
20:26
So I said, Oh, don't worry.
20:26
I'll, I'll let them know that you're there when we get to the front of the line.
20:30
So we get to the front of the line.
20:31
I said, Oh, did you know that there's a wheelchair user there?
20:34
She's waiting to get onto the roller coaster.
20:37
She then tried to move us out the way to shuffle this wheelchair through the line,
20:41
which obviously was never going to happen.
20:42
Then she said, Oh, actually, I think there's a different access point.
20:45
So she wandered round, open the access point for them,
20:48
try to get them onto the ride.
20:50
So she put them in like lanes.
20:51
12 or something like that.
20:53
Then she said to me and my kids, right, you need to go past them
20:56
to get to the next lane, but there was no room to get past them.
20:59
So she kept, this poor wheelchair user then was just apologizing
21:02
constantly for being in our way.
21:04
It was just a catalog of errors, right?
21:07
And there was nowhere for the wheelchair to be stored.
21:10
I just couldn't get my head around it, especially when
21:12
we're having this conversation.
21:13
And I thought to myself, yeah, on paper, they've done the right thing.
21:17
On paper, they've said, you know, here's a lift so the wheelchair
21:20
users can get onto this ride.
21:22
But the reality was that it was still completely inaccessible for that person.
21:27
So not only would I love your reflections on that little, little thing that I saw
21:32
yesterday, but also just to understand how we can make sure we're not just
21:37
saying, Yeah, we are accessible and having the sign, but they're not
21:40
actually being completely useless.
21:42
Lisa: Oh, there's so much tron pic there.
21:45
Yeah, that's just an awful thing.
21:47
And it's what it's goes back to what I said about, you know, giving disabled
21:51
people an equal experience, not just a like, well, we've ticked the boxes,
21:57
but, you know, giving them an equal experience to a non disabled person.
22:02
So that they're not having to constantly apologize or, you know,
22:06
not knowing where to go next.
22:08
I think this ties into something I've been thinking about a lot
22:11
recently, which is that we really want to approach accessibility
22:16
from a user experience perspective.
22:19
You know, think about the customer journey.
22:22
How is that person going to find the next step?
22:26
How is that person, you know, going to get to the accessible entrance?
22:32
Is it signed?
22:33
Is there somebody to show them?
22:35
And another thing that this really ties into, I think, is the
22:39
idea of like disability admin.
22:41
I was literally talking to a friend this morning about this because I was, I was
22:44
going to ask if I could use an example.
22:46
This is one of the first times I really had to think about physical
22:50
accessibility was I organized a training weekend for a sort of
22:54
volunteer project that I was part of.
22:57
And the idea was that we'd go to like a village hall out in the
23:01
countryside, somewhere indoor camp overnight for the weekend.
23:06
And you know, that way it would kind of keep it And it had to be.
23:11
a village hall that was accessible and that was also close to
23:17
an accessible train station.
23:19
And trying to find something that met both those requirements was so difficult.
23:24
And it just made me realize like how much thought has to go into planning anything.
23:31
If you're a wheelchair user, I know so many stations, there are stations which
23:35
are only accessible in one direction.
23:39
And so you can go north, but you can't go south.
23:42
And I know friends who have had to push the emergency stop button
23:47
on trains, cause nobody's been there with a ramp to help them off.
23:50
And they know that if they don't get off at that station, that they'll have
23:54
to travel like, you know, 30 minutes in the wrong direction and then go
23:59
back to get to where they're going.
24:01
And so, you know, in terms of user experience, I think that we should
24:04
not only be making sure that.
24:06
Disabled people have an equal experience.
24:08
I think we should be making sure they have a better experience to
24:11
make up for all of that crap that they have to go through, really.
24:14
So going back to the point about tokenism, I think this ties into something
24:21
that I know, Becca, you love to say, which is take action and do the work.
24:28
And I think in this particular case, it's really important to do the work
24:32
before you start shouting about it.
24:35
Because if you go around saying, Oh, like accessibility is my new thing.
24:40
And, you know, he's, you know, all my marketing with wheelchair users in it.
24:45
And then a wheelchair user books with you and it's not actually accessible, then
24:49
that's going to be really disappointing and a really bad experience for them.
24:53
So, you know, really make sure that access is embedded in your business before you.
24:59
Start shouting about it and really think about the user experience.
25:02
Think about it from somebody else's perspective.
25:05
How are they going to get, you know, through, if you're a venue, for example,
25:10
like, how are they going to get from each part of the day to the next?
25:15
Does, does everything flow for them?
25:18
before you go around saying, Hey, we're so accessible.
25:21
Becca: Yeah, 100%.
25:23
I think it's really important that everyone doesn't just suddenly go away
25:25
and say, I'm accessible on their website.
25:27
Because that's the easy part, right?
25:28
We could write the words, but it doesn't actually mean anything
25:31
if then the user comes and we're not actually following through.
25:34
In fact, it's worse.
25:35
because they're expecting something and then we're not delivering on it.
25:39
Now I know you shared a couple of examples earlier.
25:41
I wondered if you had any other examples where you personally or someone
25:44
you know has made adjustments at a wedding to make it more accessible.
25:48
Lisa: So if you want examples of somebody else I would just seriously
25:52
recommend going to Disabled Elizas.
25:55
Instagram feed because she is a disabled content creator who recently got married
26:00
and she's done some great reels and things on how they made their wedding accessible.
26:06
One particular example for me, this is an interesting one because it was
26:10
a, it wasn't a direct booking to me.
26:12
It was something that came through a band that I work with.
26:15
So I didn't actually know about this in advance, but I turned up to this gig and
26:19
I saw that there was a wheelchair user.
26:21
And I think that often people just assume that wheelchair users won't
26:27
want to join in with a dance related thing like, Oh, they can't do it.
26:31
They just won't want to do it.
26:33
But I obviously don't think that's the case.
26:36
So I had a chat with that person and just said, you know,
26:39
Hi you know, I'm the caller.
26:41
I just wanted to check whether you'd like to join in with the Kaylee dancing.
26:45
And they sort of said, Oh, I think I'll go away and think about it.
26:49
So I thought back to all this learning I'd done about including
26:52
wheelchair users at Kayleigh's.
26:54
This person was using an electric wheelchair, and I know that there's
26:58
they've got quite different ways that they move compared to a manual wheelchair.
27:03
So they have quite a big turning circle.
27:06
So I was thinking, right, if they want to join any dances, I'm
27:08
going to have to make sure that there's not lots of turning in it.
27:12
And basically this person then approached me sort of a couple of dances before
27:17
the last dance and said, do you think I could join in with the last dance?
27:22
Cause I'd like that.
27:24
And so I just you know, made a few little adaptions.
27:28
I made sure that the basis of the dance would work well.
27:32
It was one where people go down the middle and I thought that would be a really great
27:36
thing to do in a wheelchair is just like go down the middle of a really long line.
27:40
And yeah, they were just so happy with it.
27:43
And like everybody else was clearly really happy that they'd got the
27:46
opportunity to join in as well.
27:47
Like when they went down the middle of the group, like everyone was like cheering
27:52
and yeah, it just, it showed that all of that sort of work doing the learning.
27:59
was well spent because then I got to apply it and make sure
28:04
that that person could join in.
28:06
Becca: Amazing.
28:06
And what I love about having this conversation with you, Lisa, is I
28:09
can just see how excited you are, how, how happy you are to be able to
28:14
make these adjustments and to be able to ensure that everyone can apply.
28:19
Access what you're doing, and that's how we need to look at this.
28:22
We need to see this as a really exciting opportunity, a way to make
28:25
people feel included, a way to make sure everyone can access our services.
28:29
And I think sometimes we see it as a, as a worry is something to be concerned about.
28:34
But actually, I just love how you're talking about it as
28:36
something to be excited about.
28:37
I'm actually part of a theater group talking about people
28:39
wanting to dance in a wheelchair.
28:41
I'm part of a theater group and we've recently had someone contact
28:44
us who is a wheelchair user asking if they're able to be in our next show.
28:48
And I'm really excited.
28:55
And I think it's a really positive thing, a really positive way to be looking at it.
29:00
Now, when people are listening to this, they're probably thinking, right.
29:04
Becca, Lisa, I hear what you're saying.
29:06
I'm getting excited about this too, but practically, what are
29:10
the things I need to be doing?
29:11
So what is it, what's important to think about when we're thinking
29:14
about making sure our individual businesses are more accessible?
29:19
Lisa: So my first thing would be to learn.
29:23
and spend some time learning about the social model of disability, for
29:28
example, and I'm going to send Becca some links where you can read about that.
29:33
And then I think the concepts to base your sort of accessibility journey on.
29:41
So we've got the social model, we've got thinking about, you know,
29:46
the user experience of access.
29:49
And then something else that I like to think about is.
29:54
the idea of anticipatory versus kind of bespoke access, because I think, I
30:01
think sometimes when we're talking about access, people are like, Oh my God, say
30:05
if I'm a celebrant, does every ceremony that I do have to be BSL interpreted?
30:10
It's like, well, obviously not.
30:13
There's no point in having BSL interpretation for a ceremony if
30:16
there's no, BSL users in the audience.
30:19
So you, at that point, you're doing bespoke access.
30:23
You want to make the access bespoke to who is there.
30:28
There are, however, some anticipatory things that you can do before you have
30:33
that conversation about bespoke access.
30:35
And those would be the things like having the access information on your
30:40
website really easy to find making sure that there's a really clear contact
30:46
for questions about accessibility.
30:48
Especially if you're a venue.
30:50
Or some, a business that has multiple staff having one key
30:55
person whose responsibility it is to answer any questions about access.
30:59
Because one experience that I've heard quite a lot about is the experience of
31:05
trying to contact a venue or something like that to find out if it's accessible.
31:11
and the person who receives the email says, Oh, I'm sorry, I
31:14
don't know the answer to that.
31:15
I'll forward you onto this person.
31:18
And then that person doesn't know the answer and they
31:20
forward you onto somebody else.
31:22
And that person doesn't know the answer and they forward you
31:24
back to the first person and you still haven't got the answer.
31:27
And you've been copied into like five emails.
31:30
Again, it's this disability admin thing of, you know, we want to reduce that.
31:36
So if it's one person's.
31:37
responsibility, even if they don't know the answer, if they can take on the
31:42
admin of going and finding the answer and then going back to the client,
31:47
then that's sort of an ideal scenario.
31:50
So think about the combination of things that you can do in a sort
31:57
of anticipatory way like that.
32:00
versus the bespoke things that you can do once you've actually
32:03
Becca: started that conversation.
32:04
And so much of that, especially the bespoke part of it comes down to
32:07
asking that one simple question on your booking form or on your intake
32:12
form that says, is there anyone with accessibility requirements?
32:15
Because then you can make it bespoke.
32:17
And I think sometimes we can fall into that trap.
32:19
I was just thinking, as you were talking, I've got a really good friend who is
32:23
a sign language interpreter, and she recently got a job spec through for
32:26
this company that wanted her to go and sign on stage for all of these talks.
32:31
And her first question back to them was, well, do you have someone?
32:36
in the audience that needs that?
32:39
Or are you just doing it so you look good?
32:41
Because I'm not a dancing monkey.
32:43
I'm there to help interpret to someone who needs to be interpreted to.
32:47
And if they haven't actually asked the question, is there someone that needs
32:50
a BSL sign language interpreter, then I they're kind of doing the wrong thing.
32:54
They're trying to do the right thing, but actually doing the wrong thing.
32:57
Does that make sense?
32:58
Lisa: Yeah.
32:59
I think again, it goes back to that idea of like tokenism.
33:02
Like if you just put something in place because you want to look accessible
33:10
versus doing what somebody actually needs.
33:13
It goes back to, again, to that, to that thing about not
33:16
making assumptions as well.
33:18
For example, not all deaf people are BSL users.
33:23
So, you know, you don't want to ask someone, this is why we ask someone,
33:28
do you have any access requirements, rather than, do you have a disability?
33:33
Because finding out what somebody's disability is, is completely
33:37
irrelevant and useless, really.
33:40
because you can't judge what they need from that.
33:43
You need to be asking what, what are your requirements?
33:47
What can we do to support you to make this more accessible?
33:50
Because it's so
33:51
Becca: individual to every person.
33:53
So, so true.
33:54
Now, while we're on this conversation, again, talking a little bit about
33:57
tokenism, I want to talk and bring the conversation over to representation,
34:02
because I do believe representation matters and we should be doing
34:06
it in our wedding businesses.
34:07
But I also think it's quite easy for us to stray into this idea.
34:10
of tokenism.
34:11
Now, I don't class myself as having any kind of disability, but I did have a bit
34:16
of experience with it a few years ago.
34:18
So you may not know Lisa, but between the ages of three and
34:20
five, my daughter had quite severe hearing loss and wore hearing aids.
34:25
And at that point, we were starting to talk about whether we needed to
34:27
To learn sign language, we didn't know if it was going to be forever
34:30
or whether she would grow out of it.
34:31
As it turned out, it was just severe glue ear and she is now hearing and
34:36
no longer needs her hearing aids.
34:37
But during that time, I did have an insight into this different way of
34:41
living and one of the things I noticed was the lack of representation.
34:45
All I wanted to do was buy her a doll.
34:48
That had a hearing aid because I wanted her to feel like it was normal.
34:51
You know, a three year old girl wearing these pink sparkly hearing
34:54
aids, she feels different to all of her peers at preschool.
34:57
It was really hard to try and find this doll that would wear a hearing aid.
35:00
What I did at the end is I just bought a normal doll and then I
35:02
bought these hearing aid accessories from America, got them shipped over
35:05
and super glued it on to the doll.
35:07
But actually it would have meant the world to her if I could have
35:09
just gone into the shop, bought this doll that had a hearing aid and she
35:13
would have seen herself represented.
35:15
So there is positives to representation, a hundred percent, but also
35:20
we can be slightly tokenistic.
35:22
So talk to me about how we can be representative in our wedding businesses
35:27
without straying into tokenism.
35:30
It goes back to
35:31
Lisa: doing the work before you shout about it, because absolutely
35:36
we would love to see more representation in styled shoots and,
35:42
you know, in marketing materials.
35:44
But if you do a styled shoot with, you know, Disabled person and then your
35:53
business isn't actually accessible, then that's going to be a disappointment.
35:57
That is just tokenism.
35:58
So, I think that one way that you can increase representation before you get to
36:04
that stage is go and follow some disabled content creators and share their content.
36:12
And that's something that I do a lot of.
36:13
My Instagram feed is basically Almost entirely disabled content creators because
36:18
that's where I do most of my learning, you know Remember like you don't have
36:22
to go and read a book if that's not your thing You don't have to you know, sort of
36:28
go and read a really long blog like just having you know, that on your Instagram
36:33
feed, it's such a great way to learn.
36:35
And if you specifically choose disabled creators who are talking from their
36:39
own lived experience, then it can, you know, you can learn so much.
36:43
So I just try every day to share at least one post about access
36:49
or disability on my stories.
36:53
And that's just such an easy thing to do and it kind of, you
36:56
know, helps to increase visibility and the sort of representation.
37:00
And that both you and your audience will learn about accessibility.
37:04
I also think, you know, you can talk about your values on your website, on
37:09
your social media, but again, make sure that you have the action to back that up.
37:15
Amazing.
37:16
Becca: Now, as we start to bring this conversation to a close, Lisa, have you
37:19
got one final takeaway for the wedding business owners, venue owners that
37:23
might be listening to this episode?
37:25
What's one final takeaway that you want people to think about?
37:28
Lisa: I'm going to be cheeky and actually say two, which I think the
37:32
first thing is start the conversation.
37:35
Just give people an opportunity to tell you and, you know,
37:39
be proactive in that way.
37:41
It makes such a difference.
37:43
And then the second thing, I've said it before, just remember
37:46
that disabled people want to feel special on their wedding day too.
37:50
We all know that it's so much admin organizing a wedding.
37:54
So let's not add a load of disability admin to that.
37:58
or give them access provisions that just make them feel less than like
38:03
having to go around the back entrance.
38:05
Let's make sure that we're making people feel as special as they should be.
38:09
Becca: I love that.
38:10
And you know, that it's important to me that we should make all couples
38:13
feel special on their wedding days.
38:15
They're not just numbers to us.
38:16
So it's really important in all aspects of our business that we're looking at how we
38:20
do that, whether they've got a disability or not, let's just make everyone who's
38:24
getting married feel absolutely special.
38:26
Now.
38:27
If people want to learn more, and Lisa, I know that there is
38:30
a lot more for us all to learn.
38:31
This is a great place for people to start, but there's a whole lot more that
38:34
we can be doing and can be learning.
38:36
Have you got any resources, places to point us to where
38:38
people can do more learning?
38:40
Lisa: There's so many that I'm not going to bore you by listing them all now.
38:45
But I'm going to send.
38:46
Becca, a list of creators on Instagram, as well as some handy explainers.
38:51
There's a really great one about the different models of disability
38:53
on the Drake music website.
38:55
So I'll make sure that all those links are
38:58
Becca: in the description.
39:00
Amazing.
39:01
Yeah.
39:01
I will ensure that I put all of those links Inside of the show notes.
39:05
So if you want to access any of those and do the learning, then
39:09
you can go ahead and grab those.
39:11
Lisa, it's been so much fun talking to you about this topic, a topic that I
39:15
was nervous at the start about talking about, but actually I'm so glad that we've
39:19
done it and I think so many people are going to have learned from it as well.
39:23
However, I always.
39:24
End the podcast with the same question.
39:26
So I'm going to pose that to you now.
39:27
What's one thing you personally wish you'd known sooner in your own wedding business?
39:31
Lisa: So I think the main thing that I wish I'd known sooner was just that
39:35
you don't have to be one size fits all and try to be like everybody else.
39:40
It's okay to be yourself and to shout loudly about your values,
39:44
which is what I'm trying to do about inclusion, accessibility,
39:48
and just being a bit different.
39:50
Becca: Love it.
39:51
Absolutely.
39:51
I love everything that you're doing, everything you stand for.
39:54
Thank you so much.
39:55
If people want to find out more about you personally, about your Ceilidhs, about
39:58
your barn dances, and to see the content that you are sharing as well, where's
40:02
the best places for them to find you?
40:04
Lisa: So you can find me on Instagram and Facebook.
40:07
My handle is at Lisa.
40:10
H dot dance, or my website, which is www.
40:16
lisaHeywood.
40:17
net, that's Heywood spelled H E Y W O O D.
40:21
It's the northern way, not the southern way.
40:24
Becca: Amazing.
40:24
And again, I will make sure that we put those in the show notes as well
40:28
so that people can click and find you.
40:29
Lisa, it's been such a pleasure having this conversation with you.
40:32
Thank you so much for your time.
40:34
Thank you so much for having me.
40:36
Wow.
40:37
What a fascinating conversation that was with Lisa.
40:39
I hope you've enjoyed listening to that as much as I have enjoyed
40:43
speaking with her about this subject.
40:45
If you do need to go back, listen again, grab that notebook, note down
40:49
the things that you could be doing.
40:50
I encourage you do some more learning, go through and look at those links that
40:53
Lisa's going to put together for you.
40:55
And if nothing else, consider putting that question on your booking form.
41:00
I'll see you next time.