Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Succession with Costume Designer, Michelle Matland

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Succession with Costume Designer, Michelle Matland · The Art of Costume Podcast

• 0:11
  And of course the storyline is that that T-shirt was in his
• 0:15
  mom's house from when he was there during a summer away from
• 0:20
  his dad. So we had to believe that it
• 0:23
  would still fit him, but that it still said youthful hopefulness.
• 0:29
  And I did think it was hilarious that people responded to it.
• 0:43
  Hello and welcome to the Artificial podcast.
• 0:45
  I'm Elsa Joy Glass. And I am the eldest boy of
• 0:48
  Williams Co. Spencer Williams Hello eldest
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  son. I am the eldest son.
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  What's going on? Elizabeth, I haven't seen you in
• 1:01
  forever. How's it going?
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  It's going good. I finished my first show with
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  the theater. How did it go?
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  It went well, it went well and now now I'm working on the 2nd
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  which is Rodger and Hammerstein Cinderella.
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  So. So you have a fairy godmother to
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  take care of. I do.
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  The first one was the mountaintop which is a two
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  person play and now it's like. Now you're climbing the
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  mountaintop, yeah. It's the whole a whole cast, an
• 1:37
  ensemble. It's it's a lot.
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  Oh man. Well, I'm excited to see how it
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  goes. You know how I feel about you
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  getting into what you've been wanting to do is work in
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  costumes. So I think everyone listening is
• 1:51
  probably just rooting for you and cheering for you.
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  That's amazing. Thank you.
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  Thank you. What have you been up to?
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  Oh, you know, just a couple things.
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  Lots of things. Well, I went to the Costume
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  Awards not too long ago, which is very, very fun.
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  Saw lots of cool people. I hung up with Laura Montgomery
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  once again and we had a good time.
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  It it was, it was a night full of fun, fun things, you know,
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  seeing so many designers that we've talked to.
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  Laura and I had a good time. We ended up afterwards like
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  going out for drinks with a bunch of illustrators.
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  For example, Jen Hancock was driving us around.
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  That's amazing. She was driving us around in her
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  like little car with like a car full of like, costume designers
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  and illustrators. It was, it was a night.
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  It was, it was such a good time. But yeah, I was just so happy
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  for everyone who won, who were nominated.
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  And then also I've been working on a museum exhibition as well,
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  which is at this moment now open.
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  So if everyone heads over to the ASU Fit a Museum in downtown Los
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  Angeles, the Art of Costume Design and Film exhibition is
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  open. Is open Tuesdays through
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  Saturdays from 4:50, I believe. And we have so many great
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  costumes this time around, so you gotta check them out.
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  All the Oscar nominees, Barbies there, poor things.
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  Some personal favorites of mine like Ballad, the songbirds and
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  snakes and the Iron Claw are in there.
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  So lots of lots of great costumes.
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  And also we're gonna be doing some events in a museum as well,
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  some designers coming up on late night Thursdays at the museum.
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  So come check that out if you're in downtown Los Angeles.
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  But yeah, it's been it's been a whirlwind.
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  My brain is feels officially melted.
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  So amazing. I love whenever, whenever you're
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  able to help out with the show or put a show together at the
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  museum, you do such a good job. Thank you.
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  I mean it's it's really, I don't have as much of A role this time
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  around since I started a little late, but I did get to help a
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  little. But the incredible team of
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  curators. Christina Frank, Christina
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  Johnson, Kevin Jones and the marketing team.
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  And it just takes so much to put that small exhibition together.
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  But it's such like a staple of the Los Angeles community.
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  I'm just so excited that ASU is continuing on that tradition so
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  everyone can check it out. I'm very, very happy and proud
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  of it. I That's so exciting.
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  I wish I was there to see it. But talking about downtown
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  Spencer, we need to go to another coast to downtown New
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  York. At least I think it was in
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  downtown New York. I don't know Spencer, but we're
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  not from New York. Clearly.
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  I think I said some some wrong things in the missus maisel
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  episode. I'm not from New York.
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  But Spencer, what did we watch this week?
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  Oh man, I am so excited to say that we are talking about
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  succession this week. This incredible show that has
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  won about two million awards. All of us are watching it,
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  watched it. It's such a good show and I'm so
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  excited that we get to talk about it, 'cause it was not
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  originally on my radar for this year and it fell into.
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  We had an opportunity come up and you and I jumped at it.
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  We were so excited. I.
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  Was so excited, 'cause I it's never something I ever
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  considered us doing an episode on.
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  Mostly because we were just talking about this.
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  Like the costumes are incredible.
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  It's the strong aesthetic of succession that is that like,
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  draws you in that isn't. That's what's incredible about
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  the costumes. I'm like, I don't like, I don't
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  really think about a singular like so many things.
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  You think of like, oh, this costume, this scene, like with
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  Succession, you're just like, Oh my gosh, like everything is what
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  was incredible. And you think of just like the
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  whole the series as a whole when you think of its costumes.
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  Yeah, I mean, it's also been like heavily written about too
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  on Vogue and all these other outlets that the costumes,
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  costume designers, especially Michelle Matlin, who did
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  basically every episode about the pilot, the show and her
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  team's work really inspired this trend called Quiet Luxury, which
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  I think really just nails. Exactly.
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  The aesthetic of succession, it's like it's it's not over the
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  top in the sense that it is quiet, but they are all very
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  luxurious. You know, if you look at Shiv or
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  Kendall, you could just tell that they're just elevated and
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  expensive, but they're still business people and they fit
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  into their environments. But you know, we'll dive into
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  all of that. But I totally get what you mean.
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  Just the Succession vibe, the aesthetic, it's very
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  interesting. Absolutely.
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  And Spencer, before we dive into this, why don't you give us a
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  summary? I will, and I'm so excited to
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  say that we're covering all Four Seasons in this one episode, so
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  I hope you're all ready for it. So Succession Although he has no
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  plans to step aside as a head of way, Star Royco, the
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  international media conglomerate controlled by his family
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  patriarch Logan Roy, is contemplating what the future
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  holds. He has lingered in the limelight
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  longer than he even thought he would, and now family members
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  want to run the company as they see fit.
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  Despite a best laid succession plan, tempers flare over Logan's
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  intentions. Kendall Roy, Logan's eldest son
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  from a second marriage and a division president at the firm,
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  is the heir apparent. As Kendall attempts to solidify
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  his eventual takeover, he and the three other Roy children
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  face a difficult choice as company control and family
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  loyalties collide. And that is succession.
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  That was a long. One.
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  Yeah, it was Four Seasons. You had to condense Four
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  Seasons. At a pack.
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  Yeah, if you haven't seen succession, pause this.
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  Go watch it like you can't understand succession without
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  seeing succession. Right.
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  Well, unless you live in contemporary America for
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  watching our news cycle. Yeah, yeah.
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  But succession's more fun. Succession.
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  Yeah, Succession's more fun. Yeah, let's not worry about that
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  at all. Let's go.
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  Behind the costumes, we have series creator Jesse Armstrong
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  and costume designers Catherine George for the pilot and
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  Michelle Matlin for every other episode ever created of
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  Succession. You will know Michelle's work
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  from The Girl on the Train, but you might be even more familiar
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  with her work as an assistant costume designer on Sabrina.
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  And she heavily worked with Anne Roth on Signs Cold Mountain,
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  Mamma Mia, Julie and Julia The Post, and she's even worked on
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  SNL. Yeah, I mean, Michelle Matlin's
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  kind of done it all. This is like one of Anne Roth's
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  assistant costume designers that we're talking about.
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  So you know, she's she's seen some things and done some
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  incredible work. She has, she has.
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  And today I am so excited. Spencer had the opportunity to
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  interview her about her work on succession.
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  Spencer I'm so excited for this. I am so excited Michelle Matlin
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  got to call in on her phone for us to have a quick chat about
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  succession and we went through basically all Four Seasons in
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  this quick phone conversation. But we really get to get into
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  each of the Roy siblings, all three of them.
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  I realized I forgot a sibling, but that's OK.
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  And also of course, Logan, Jerry and some iconic moments.
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  But I'm sorry you couldn't be there, Elizabeth, but I'm
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  excited that we still get to be here and chat about it now, so.
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  Me too, everybody. Enjoy Spencer's interview with
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  Michelle Matlin. But then don't go anywhere,
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  'cause we got to talk about our favorite costumes.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not forgetting about that.
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  I am so excited to welcome to the podcast costume designer
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  Michelle Matlin. Hey Michelle, how's it going?
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  Very well. Hello.
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  Hi. I've been listening to some of
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  your podcasts. I really am enjoying them.
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  Oh, wow, that's so nice of you. That makes me happy.
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  Well, we've been wanting to talk to you for a long time, and now
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  that succession has come to an end, it's just felt like now is
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  the time to just reflect on the whole thing.
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  Absolutely. And where are you at right now?
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  Are you in New York? I am right now in Pennsylvania
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  looking at a lake. It's bright and sunny and
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  there's still snow on the ground here, so very different than
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  where you are, I'm sure. Well, let's dive into
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  succession, which I still can't believe it's over.
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  You have been with the show since season one.
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  Now that some time has passed, how are you feeling now?
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  It's all over? Are you looking back at just
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  relieved? Do you miss it?
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  I think anyone who was associated with the show will
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  and if they give an honest answer will say they really do
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  hearts. I mean truly miss the
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  collaborative work that went on there and it was such a happy
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  place to work despite the storyline, which got very dark
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  at times. I think that the cast and the
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  crew really enjoyed the The Four Seasons.
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  But I I think what's brilliant about Jesse is he knew when the
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  story had hit it's timely finish and he respected all of the
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  characters and their storylines so much that he knew when it was
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  time to close the door. And I that we all I think, saw,
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  you know, that the story had come to its final, you know,
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  outcome. Yeah, and that's always the
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  best, too. When you could go out on top
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  almost. Did you and your team know that
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  this show is going to be such the phenomenon that became when
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  you start working on it? Well, I think, I mean,
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  obviously, intellectually, I don't think anyone can recognize
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  creatively. I think we knew that it was a
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  very special place that we were allowed to really tell a story
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  through the costumes and the sets and the props.
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  I mean every, every department was at their best I think and we
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  really enjoyed the time. But the idea of a phenomenon of
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  course is something so extraordinary that you probably
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  don't see it coming until you're right in the middle of it.
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  So, and I think that the IT took a little time for the audience.
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  I heard people say, I don't like those people.
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  They're so dark, they're rotten, they're evil, whatever.
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  And then as the next year, I would run into the same neighbor
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  and she'd say I'm addicted now, you know, You know, you didn't
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  really want to see the underbelly.
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  Well, I mean to start, so there's been so much
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  conversation about these costumes.
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  You know, we heard the trends, Quiet Luxury, it's a very
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  trending show in terms of the costumes and fashion.
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  So what did your research and preparation look like on
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  succession, and did that evolve throughout the series?
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  Yes, it definitely changed when we started my assistant, Co
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  designer, Associate John Schwartz and I would go downtown
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  and hang out outside of these buildings where the most
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  important gentleman would be getting out of their limos and
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  the lower echelon would be coming out of the subway.
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  You know, carrying their extra phones and busy and you know
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  getting their coffees for the boss.
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  And we you could definitely see the hierarchy and we really look
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  closely in the hallways of those buildings to see how those
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  subtle differences could be seen or exhibited or shown and
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  developed through the clothes. Because obviously we know that a
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  suit is a suit and a tie is a tie.
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  But what makes upper echelon so identifiably different?
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  What is it? The quality, the fabrication?
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  We don't know exactly what it is when you see it from afar, but
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  then you start studying that and you realize it is so incredibly
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  transparent and that everyone is a wannabe at some point.
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  And like the Toms of the world, you know, he started out
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  wearing, you know, middle of the line.
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  He was a Midwesterner, you know, went to a lower end college.
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  But he knew what he needed to figure out and how to try to
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  impress and that's part of his storyline.
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  So everyone's costumes developed over time and as the seasons
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  developed story wise, we were allowed to adapt and change
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  those costumes. And that's what made it really
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  fun for us. Be able to find the nuances of
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  all of these people and how we all change and adapt as we make
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  our journey, you know? So it was great fun to be able
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  to start to change the clothing. I can tell you we spent a lot of
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  time analyzing, discussing creatively but also technically
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  what, where are these people from?
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  Why are they here at this place? What are they trying to prove?
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  What is the clothes say? So the actors and I in the
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  fitting room would have endless dialogue, and we really tried to
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  tell the truth about wherever their character was.
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  So was this a high note in Kendall's life?
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  Was this a little place? Had he been broken again?
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  What do those clothes say? What are the colors say?
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  How do you tell that story without such broad strokes that
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  the audience feels like we're diminishing the subtlety of each
• 17:28
  of these actors and what their characterization is so?
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  So now I really want to talk about some specific characters
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  and I connect a lot with Kendall because he loves a good baseball
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  cap. His fashion is very interesting.
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  So can you talk about your collaboration with Jeremy
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  Strong, who played Kendall, and how the two of you told the
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  story of his character through costumes?
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  Well, Kendall, as we know, Jeremy as we know, 'cause it's
• 17:55
  been talked about quite a bit, is a very involved.
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  He directs everything he knows is involved in the creation of
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  his character. He uses everything that he
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  studied about this person in the moments, and he doesn't shed
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  that immediately, you know, I mean, I think he really was
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  portraying Kendall in his soul for four years.
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  That's a long time. He would text me at 3:00 in the
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  morning with an image of something he saw or a boutique
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  that he had passed by or a person he being on a, you know,
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  coming out of a movie theater. And he was very invaluable in
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  creating these costumes. And he knew Kendall better than
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  anyone, always. So he was in some ways kind of a
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  corporate imposter when he was in his suit.
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  And he knew what that meant. He knew what it looked like.
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  He knew how to stand. He knew how to hold himself.
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  He knew how to walk, how to carry a a cup.
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  Everything was involved in the creation of the man on the
• 19:15
  screen. And then he shed that and he got
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  down to his more sort of natural skin, which were those muted.
• 19:25
  Tom Ford, you know, Earth tones, the Laura piano of all the
• 19:31
  Cuccinelli's. But for him, the label, although
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  he didn't want it to be emphasized in any way on the
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  product, he knew what it was. He knew the cost of it, and I
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  think so does Kendall. So it was the truth that he was
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  telling through the clothes. He also is a fashionista, so if
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  anyone knows what's going on in the fashion world at the moment,
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  he does. I mean, he's the arbiter of of
• 20:04
  affluence. Yeah.
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  And he knew it, and so did Kendall through him.
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  That's so funny. And Kendall just he always had
• 20:14
  such such interesting costumes. And actually one of my favorite
• 20:17
  moments, if we could just have a moment of humor, was actually
• 20:21
  Kendall's performance of L to the OGI.
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  Think it's so gold. I mean is, was there a story
• 20:26
  behind this look when you all came up with it?
• 20:30
  Well, this once again was Jeremy having done like, I think he
• 20:34
  must have stayed up at night Googling, you know, what was the
• 20:38
  the piece that was going to make that moment?
• 20:42
  And then we would talk about it and then we would, you know,
• 20:46
  sometimes it was too much or too obvious and we would come up
• 20:51
  with a plan to tone it down to a more truthful storytelling.
• 20:56
  But it was all about his knowledge of the offbeat and yet
• 21:06
  his deep examination. And then of course, ours
• 21:10
  together of what what money really means and how.
• 21:15
  How do you aspire to it in the cases of the Greggs and Tom, and
• 21:20
  how do you acknowledge it naturally in the case of the
• 21:23
  Logan you know and his family? Such a fun moment I've I've seen
• 21:29
  that music video probably 1000 times, probably more than you've
• 21:34
  seen it. I now want to turn to Shiv Roy,
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  played by the incredible Sarah Snook, who is absolutely
• 21:41
  wonderful and her character. She had such a complicated final
• 21:46
  season and Sarah actually had quite an interesting journey in
• 21:49
  the final season that as well. So how did you approach Shiv in
• 21:53
  the final season, and how did that differ from when we first
• 21:56
  met her as a political consultant?
• 21:59
  Well, here's the thing about Shiv that I think is
• 22:03
  fascinating, if you look back on the seasons as you go along.
• 22:07
  Her decision to leave her family business at a very young age, if
• 22:16
  you think about it and become this sort of public Democrat,
• 22:22
  you know, good, you know, save the world and wanting to look
• 22:27
  the part of sort of middle income folk.
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  So all of her clothes were, you know, Bloomingdale's instead of
• 22:35
  where she ended up in boutiques on Madison Ave., where she,
• 22:39
  early on, could easily afford it, but she wanted to assimilate
• 22:43
  into the world of the people. That's interesting.
• 22:48
  I never thought of that. And then what we did was when
• 22:53
  she decides to come back, she started becoming that Katherine
• 22:56
  Hepburn silhouette that was sort of mildly masculine at the same
• 23:01
  time sexy and beautiful 'cause she is.
• 23:05
  And I think that what we're trying to say there is the to
• 23:09
  create a sort of veneer so that when she went back into the
• 23:14
  corporate world with her brother, she felt she had some
• 23:18
  stature, a uniform, she became an equal or fought to become an
• 23:23
  equal. And as you're talking about the
• 23:25
  last season, of course all of this is falling apart and all of
• 23:30
  her clothes are becoming less representative of the strength
• 23:37
  that she had before. And it was by choice.
• 23:41
  And I know that some of the audience got very upset with us
• 23:44
  because she didn't look as fabulous and put together, but
• 23:50
  her life was coming apart in so many ways.
• 23:53
  And then of course, in Sarah's real life, this miraculous
• 23:59
  moment of finding out that she was pregnant.
• 24:02
  And what do you do with that? How do you tell that story?
• 24:06
  And it's funny enough, Jesse and I spoke early on about this.
• 24:10
  As soon as he was notified, you know, 'cause at first she wasn't
• 24:13
  telling him what, of course, And only a very, very few people
• 24:17
  knew. And he actually said, and this
• 24:21
  is such a great side of Jesse, what would you do?
• 24:28
  What would you do with the character?
• 24:30
  And I said, well, you know, we don't shoot like Law and Order
• 24:34
  where you can hide somebody behind a desk, you know, and
• 24:37
  just shoot them from the front and hope nobody notices and, you
• 24:40
  know, wear a trench coat all the time.
• 24:42
  So he decided after we chatted that he would write it into the
• 24:46
  script. And I think it was the perfect
• 24:49
  thing to do because it also helped in the drama of the
• 24:54
  storytelling. And then at the very end, when
• 24:57
  we see how this whole thing plays out and they're in the car
• 25:03
  and they take each other's hands, it's so I thought so
• 25:08
  incredibly moving because you don't know what that means.
• 25:14
  You know, is this a reconciliation?
• 25:16
  It is. She going to make do with the
• 25:19
  place that she's been given. I mean, if there were a Season
• 25:22
  5, there'd be a long storytelling in that.
• 25:26
  Yeah, I have to agree with you. I've been thinking about that
• 25:29
  final season ever since I finished it, and I guess we'll
• 25:32
  never know. But I like to make up a lot of
• 25:34
  theories on my own head. Yes, exactly.
• 25:39
  Well, my favorite character was always Roman.
• 25:42
  I am Team Roman all the way, and I like him a lot too, because he
• 25:45
  shows a lot of his emotions on his sleeves.
• 25:48
  And I think quite literally actually, his sleeves always
• 25:50
  rolled up open collars sometimes a bit, you know, you could tell
• 25:54
  he's really stressed sometimes. So how did you approach Roman?
• 25:59
  Well, he was a very delicate balance, I think.
• 26:02
  Whereas some of the other characters, like you said on
• 26:05
  your sleeve, no pun intended, the clothes really were telling
• 26:10
  a story. They were part of the story
• 26:12
  because that's what they wanted. That's what the character called
• 26:16
  for. Roman discomfort, I think in
• 26:20
  himself that we realized so early on his sexual issues, his
• 26:27
  mother issues, his father issues, he was trying to conceal
• 26:33
  that. I think in contrast to his real
• 26:39
  emotions, which were disruptive to his daily self, he tried to
• 26:45
  make himself look like he was always at ease with the sleeves
• 26:50
  rolled up to no tie, you know, sneakers, never a jacket.
• 26:56
  And I think that that was just part of trying to delicately
• 27:01
  show that. It was like a dichotomy between
• 27:05
  his clothes and his person. And his acting is so brilliant
• 27:10
  and he embodies the characters so intimately that he did all
• 27:15
  the acting and the clothes could just be there as a level, almost
• 27:20
  like a uniform to save him from himself.
• 27:25
  That's so fascinating. And I think one of my favorite
• 27:28
  moments of the past year, Michelle, was actually when the
• 27:31
  world found out about Roman's shirt being found out Walmart,
• 27:35
  everyone freaked out and it was sold out just like that.
• 27:39
  I mean, I even tried to get one. Did you have a good laugh at
• 27:42
  that? Oh, we laughed wholeheartedly,
• 27:45
  but the shirt actually came from the kids store cookies in
• 27:49
  Harlem. You know, there's one in Harlem.
• 27:51
  There's one downtown. I think the one that we went to
• 27:54
  was in the Bronx at the time. But what is funny about it is we
• 27:59
  probably had, I don't know, 20 shirts of the same ilk.
• 28:04
  But because Roman really participated, just like so many
• 28:09
  of the actors, all of the actors were involved deeply in their
• 28:12
  costumes. And that makes such a great,
• 28:15
  makes it such a great job for the design team because we get
• 28:19
  to really participate where they really care.
• 28:23
  But he spent a good 24 hours mulling over each T-shirt and
• 28:29
  which one. And of course, the storyline is
• 28:32
  that that T-shirt was in his mom's house from when he was
• 28:35
  there during a summer away from his dad.
• 28:39
  So we had to believe that it would still fit him, but that it
• 28:45
  still said youthful hopefulness, you know what I mean?
• 28:49
  Back before all of this sort of hit the fan.
• 28:53
  So it it was kind of touching and I did think it was hilarious
• 28:57
  that people responded to it. It is funny what people respond
• 29:01
  to. So I'm glad.
• 29:05
  Well, I also want to ask our one character that I feel like we
• 29:09
  don't talk about quite enough is Jerry.
• 29:12
  She's another incredible character.
• 29:14
  J Smith. Cameron wears clothes so well.
• 29:16
  What can you tell us about Jerry?
• 29:19
  Well, she was another person who we took a long journey.
• 29:23
  If you start with season one and then you end up with the end of
• 29:27
  season 4, she's been every woman you can imagine of a certain
• 29:32
  age. She was somewhat nondescript in
• 29:37
  the beginning in terms of her clothes.
• 29:39
  They were just sort of standard women's fare for office gear.
• 29:45
  And as her character developed, her position became as
• 29:52
  successful as she was, became even more so, and she became the
• 29:57
  right hand to Logan. So her positioning of herself
• 30:02
  actually as a woman became as important as being a man in the
• 30:09
  room. And she started to flaunt that.
• 30:11
  And so we started finding more form figures, costumes, clothing
• 30:17
  that enhanced the femininity of her, which is where we had
• 30:21
  really tried to not address that issue in the very beginning.
• 30:25
  And so by the end, she is really very much a woman in the room,
• 30:32
  not just another important suit. And that was really quite great.
• 30:38
  And of course, she's a dear friend and an incredible person,
• 30:42
  so fooling around with her in a sitting room where we go out
• 30:45
  shopping together was always a huge treat.
• 30:49
  I love her that much more now. Honestly, such a great character
• 30:52
  and if there was ever going to be a spin off, I hope it's about
• 30:56
  Jerry, but I'm just putting that out there into the universe.
• 30:59
  Jerry and Ronan. Right.
• 31:01
  Yes, please tell somebody so. I know you've been probably
• 31:08
  asked about this probably 1000 times, but I think the podcast
• 31:11
  listeners would be so cranky with me if I did not ask about
• 31:14
  the famous Tom Wambsgans moment with cousin Greg's date, the
• 31:19
  ludicrously capacious bag. I mean, how did this moment come
• 31:22
  together? Well, it was written on the page
• 31:27
  in those words obviously, just exactly.
• 31:31
  And we knew that to begin with, Tom at some point in his life
• 31:38
  very often was abused and sort of played upon by the brothers
• 31:47
  because he didn't come from the natural background that they did
• 31:51
  where money was accepted. And he struggled with that and
• 31:54
  he was constantly trying to prove himself with suspenders
• 31:58
  and pocket squares and whatever in the early issues.
• 32:02
  And then you see him with the sneakers a little bit later,
• 32:04
  those big white Tom Todd Todd sneakers that are so iconic
• 32:11
  really. And so after all of the abuse
• 32:17
  that he took from the family and the teasing, the endless
• 32:20
  merciless teasing, I think he found an opportunity here too.
• 32:25
  And that's why he was always so cruel to Greg, because he was
• 32:27
  the lower man on the totem pole where Tom had always been the
• 32:31
  lowest to make fun of Greg and this bag.
• 32:34
  But what I always found interesting was the rest of the
• 32:38
  costume was never even mentioned.
• 32:39
  The fact that she had socks on and a pair of boots and she was
• 32:43
  wearing that silly dress, that was totally inappropriate.
• 32:48
  The bag really did play the whole scene and I never I was
• 32:53
  like, wow, because that's so obvious.
• 32:56
  And we did have also once again, as you can imagine, 20 bags.
• 33:02
  But which one was so obviously ridiculous, but so something
• 33:10
  that a woman in her price point would think was the thing to
• 33:16
  have. So she would never know to buy
• 33:18
  something like Kendall did, you know, buy $1000 baseball cap.
• 33:23
  She wouldn't ever be able to afford it, nor is that even in
• 33:27
  her spectrum of spending. So it had to be something that
• 33:31
  was accessible to a young woman who probably made under, you
• 33:37
  know, $75,000 and that she would have access to, like at Macy's.
• 33:44
  And she would go straight to the department with her first
• 33:47
  paycheck and buy this bag and be so impressed.
• 33:51
  And all of her other secretarial team probably would think the
• 33:54
  same thing. Wow.
• 33:56
  So the big wow. For that, it's such a fun it
• 34:00
  was. On the page.
• 34:02
  Of course, brilliant writing, by the way.
• 34:04
  We have to shout out the writers.
• 34:06
  Absolutely. And for our final character, we
• 34:10
  have to talk about the Titan Does Brian Cox as Logan Roy?
• 34:13
  And when it comes to Logan, the man at the top, what were you
• 34:16
  trying to convey through his costumes?
• 34:20
  Logan obviously had absolutely nothing to prove.
• 34:27
  He was a man who made it. He made it himself.
• 34:30
  We based a lot of the research obviously on the Murdochs and
• 34:34
  those families, the Redstone, but his he picked what was most
• 34:42
  comfortable for him is shawl collared sweaters that were cozy
• 34:47
  from his background, his heritage.
• 34:50
  Yes, of course they were out of the price point that a normal
• 34:54
  man would be able to purchase, but money was of no object to
• 34:58
  him and these clothes were brought to him.
• 35:00
  His suits were custom made, so when he went into the boardroom,
• 35:05
  yes, he could wear slippers should he choose.
• 35:08
  Nobody was going to tell him anything.
• 35:10
  And so he dressed in what he felt.
• 35:13
  He was not trying to reveal anything.
• 35:16
  These were just the clothes that he chose to wear because they
• 35:20
  made him feel at home and he did not have to pose himself to
• 35:27
  anyone or for anyone. He's already a proven man.
• 35:30
  He is the king, I mean. So it was his clothes were
• 35:36
  rather simple to provide because you knew that they just had to
• 35:40
  be top, top of the line quality goods and that they were for a
• 35:50
  man who was completely comfortable in his own skin.
• 35:55
  So he and Brian, you know, played Logan the way he is,
• 36:00
  which is so confident. And Brian Cox has a very
• 36:07
  powerful, strong, sometimes, you know, caustic sense of humor.
• 36:13
  He's a hilariously funny man and he brought all of that to Logan.
• 36:19
  So it for him, I'm sure it was a very easy place to go.
• 36:26
  And so it's a clothing that he wore that he was comfortable
• 36:30
  with. He would let us know if there
• 36:32
  was something he felt that was too over the top, he would
• 36:37
  certainly let us know. But he was very, very amenable.
• 36:42
  You know, get get it together and go go to set.
• 36:46
  Ought to be a family on the wall, honestly.
• 36:48
  Well, well, for our final question, Michelle, I and so
• 36:53
  many people love Succession. It was incredible series.
• 36:56
  And what I love about this show is that it's going to live on
• 36:58
  forever. Auntses will continue to enjoy
• 37:00
  and discover it. So before we end, what did this
• 37:03
  series mean to you, both personally and professionally,
• 37:05
  now that you could look back on the entire experience?
• 37:09
  That's such an easy question to answer because it #1.
• 37:13
  It provided me with an opportunity for my team and
• 37:17
  myself to once again work together, which is amazing.
• 37:22
  I've had the same people around me for years.
• 37:26
  Even the young ones have been coming along with me for a long
• 37:28
  time, so to have my team together was a treat beyond in
• 37:35
  the collaborative creative process.
• 37:38
  I can't imagine a better combination of factors, both
• 37:43
  between the cast and the crew obviously, but everyone was
• 37:48
  there to listen and to offer their assistance to each other,
• 37:54
  every department, work together like it was very symbiotic.
• 37:59
  There was never any negative energy.
• 38:03
  It was a wonderful place to live and I learned so much.
• 38:07
  But I guess we continue to learn on everything we do.
• 38:12
  Hopeful, very hopeful to continue.
• 38:15
  Well, costume is our Michelle Matlin.
• 38:17
  It has been such a joy and a pleasure to finally be able to
• 38:20
  meet you even if it's over the phone.
• 38:22
  And I look forward to seeing what you do next and connecting
• 38:25
  next time. It's been a real honor.
• 38:26
  Thank you for joining us. Well, thank you for having me.
• 38:30
  This was really, really great fun.
• 38:32
  I really appreciate it and I do love your podcast.
• 38:35
  Thank you. That's so nice.
• 38:36
  I'm going to I'm going to tell everyone I'm going to text my
• 38:39
  team right after this. Absolutely.
• 38:42
  Thank you, Michelle have. A great day.
• 38:59
  Hi, this is Dan, audio engineer of the podcast here to let you
• 39:03
  know that if you wanted to support the show, you can head
• 39:07
  over to the Art of costume.com/POD store.
• 39:11
  There you can buy some awesome T public merch with the podcast
• 39:15
  logo such as a shirt, coffee mug, stickers and of course a
• 39:21
  baby onesie. Thanks for all your support.
• 39:46
  Spencer That was such a fun interview.
• 39:49
  Wasn't she just amazing? I'm obsessed with her.
• 39:52
  I I just love her work and Succession was so fun.
• 39:56
  And I'm so glad I got to talk to Michelle.
• 39:57
  She's so cool. She was incredible and I cannot
• 40:01
  wait to talk about our one costume to rule them all,
• 40:05
  Spencer. I am so ready.
• 40:07
  Let's do it. The one costume to rule them
• 40:12
  all. Spencer What's your one costume
• 40:18
  to rule them all? So I mean it.
• 40:21
  This was a hard one. I actually struggled with this
• 40:23
  one because there's just so many costumes.
• 40:25
  Four Seasons. How are you supposed to settle
• 40:27
  on one? But there was one that just
• 40:30
  like, stands out to me and I can't stop thinking about it so
• 40:33
  much. So I really wanted to make it my
• 40:35
  Halloween costume, but I missed out.
• 40:38
  So I had to pick Roman's finale costume where we see him at his
• 40:44
  mom's home and he's wearing that shirt, which we eventually you
• 40:48
  were able to get at Walmart. That's not where Michelle Matlin
• 40:52
  got the shirt, but you could actually find out Walmart at
• 40:55
  some point. It's just so funny to me, 'cause
• 40:58
  like Roman, like clearly this is like his shirt from, like maybe
• 41:01
  growing up when he was like, he wasn't like a kid, but he was,
• 41:05
  you know, maybe like early 20s. Yeah, Younger.
• 41:09
  Yeah. And it doesn't fit him all the
• 41:11
  way. And he just looks like such a
• 41:13
  mess with his bandages and this really fun blue shirt and these
• 41:18
  shorts. Like, he just, he's a mess.
• 41:21
  And I love it. It just says so much about his
• 41:23
  character at this time and I just am obsessed with how much
• 41:27
  press this damn shirt got. So that is my one costume to
• 41:31
  rule them all, because I really felt like it controlled the
• 41:34
  Internet for a couple weeks and I love that.
• 41:37
  About. Such a simple costume.
• 41:40
  I absolutely did, and my one costume to Rule Them All is a
• 41:45
  little bit of a collection. Going back to that whole seeing,
• 41:50
  thinking of the aesthetic of the costume design of Succession.
• 41:56
  I side note, I really love a good title sequence for all of
• 42:03
  you out there. I love a good title sequence.
• 42:05
  I think True Blood has the best title sequence of all time
• 42:08
  Coming in at #2 is Succession, because it brings you into the
• 42:13
  world of succession. It doesn't tell you much about
• 42:16
  the characters, nothing about what's going on, but it tells
• 42:20
  you about the world they are living in and the shot of the
• 42:25
  four kids in their like white and tan, like suits and dress
• 42:32
  like this, like it almost looks like a shot from Easter.
• 42:38
  And it's like they're so well dressed and so miserable, like
• 42:43
  you can see like this lifestyle being forced onto them,
• 42:50
  expectations, being forced onto them in these clothes, and I
• 42:53
  think it's brilliant. That is so cool that you brought
• 42:57
  that up and I love this picture and now that you mention it,
• 43:01
  like looking at what I assume is Kendall, because I'm just going
• 43:04
  based off of heights at this point.
• 43:06
  This looks like Kendall on the far left.
• 43:08
  And his suit is like almost a little too big for him.
• 43:11
  And I just feel like he's like almost wearing his dad's clothes
• 43:14
  or trying to like dress like his dad a little bit.
• 43:18
  So it's a little like he's trying to be something that he's
• 43:21
  not. That's such a good one.
• 43:23
  Absolutely. And even like like Shiv in this,
• 43:26
  like cute little knee length, like puff sleeve white dress,
• 43:30
  it's like she's playing like the part of like the sweet daughter.
• 43:35
  That's not who she is, but it's the part like she's thrown into
• 43:39
  playing 'cause she's the only girl.
• 43:44
  Oh man, I love this show. I'm so glad we got to talk about
• 43:47
  succession. It it's just one of it's one of
• 43:50
  those shows that is just epically good from beginning to
• 43:53
  end. I can't think of a single
• 43:55
  episode where I was like, well, that was boring.
• 43:57
  I just it's Game of Thrones level good to me.
• 44:00
  It is so good. Absolutely.
• 44:02
  And like, I'll say, like, I'm not a big fan of, like, modern
• 44:06
  rich people problems. But succession gets you like,
• 44:11
  it's so outlandish. You're like, what?
• 44:14
  What? Excuse.
• 44:16
  Me. Modern rich people problems are
• 44:20
  like kind of like a new genre between this and White Lotus.
• 44:23
  I just can't get enough of it. The Gilded Age, I mean.
• 44:27
  That's that's old tiny rich people problems.
• 44:30
  There's a difference. Yeah, rich people problems in
• 44:34
  general is a common theme here. Yeah.
• 44:40
  If you would like to tell us Year One costume to rule them
• 44:43
  All, you can leave us a voicemail at 626-515-1826 or
• 44:49
  e-mail us at the Arctic costume@gmail.com Spencer, what
• 44:56
  are we watching next week? Well, Elizabeth, I'm excited
• 45:00
  about Next, our next episode because we're definitely
• 45:04
  changing it up. I don't think we could change it
• 45:06
  any anymore from Succession as we kind of start to get into
• 45:10
  like a Easter vibe. I don't know, maybe it makes
• 45:14
  sense. Costume designer Antoinette
• 45:16
  Mezam will be joining us next episode to talk about her work
• 45:20
  on the recent film The Book of Clarence.
• 45:23
  And I don't know if you've seen it yet, Elizabeth, but it's
• 45:26
  spectacular. I have not, and I'm so excited
• 45:30
  to watch it. I meant to catch it in the
• 45:32
  theaters. I'm so upset with myself that I
• 45:34
  didn't and I am really ready to see this movie and listen to
• 45:38
  your incredible interview. It's such a fun movie.
• 45:41
  I I feel like I didn't know what to expect when I sit down
• 45:45
  because to me I was like a religious type movie, maybe not
• 45:49
  for me, and I just felt so wrong by the end of it.
• 45:52
  It is fun. It is, it is contemporary.
• 45:56
  There's a hip hop element to it. It's just everything.
• 45:59
  So I hope you enjoy it and I hope you all enjoy it.
• 46:02
  In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe to us on YouTube
• 46:06
  youtube.com slash at the Art of Costumes so you could see visual
• 46:10
  representations of all these costumes as we talk about them.
• 46:15
  And as always, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at the
• 46:18
  Art of Costume Pod on TikTok at the Art of Costume and don't
• 46:22
  forget to hit up our merch store at the Art of costume.com/pod
• 46:26
  store. It's it's starting to get warm
• 46:29
  soon, so maybe it's time to get AT shirt before it starts
• 46:32
  getting too hot. But we still want you to have
• 46:35
  our gear on the ball if you're melting outside.
• 46:38
  Yeah, so a little tank top tour to the beach.
• 46:41
  I like that options, options We do like the Arctic Costume Pod,
• 46:45
  like bathing suit or Speedo. That'd be sick.
• 46:49
  I don't think that's an option. Daniel.
• 46:54
  I think there's a limit. Daniel, we'll have a separate
• 46:58
  meeting about this after. OK, well if you liked what you
• 47:04
  heard, we would appreciate it and love you forever if you left
• 47:09
  us a five star text review on Apple Podcast.
• 47:12
  These really help out and everybody have a fantastic week.
• 47:18
  I cannot agree more, else I want a Speedo.
• 47:26
  The Art of Costume podcast is hosted and produced by Elizabeth
• 47:30
  Joy Glass and Spencer Williams. Our audio engineering and
• 47:35
  editing is done by Dan White. Follow us on TikTok at The Art
• 47:40
  of Costume and Instagram at The Art of Costume Pod.
• 47:44
  If you want to support the show, go to
• 47:46
  theartofcostume.com/podstore. For more podcast updates,
• 47:52
  costume reviews, deep dives and interviews, go to
• 47:57
  theartofcostume.com, A blog dedicated to highlighting the
• 48:02
  best in costume design. Oh my gosh, can you hear my
• 48:24
  stomach rumbling? No.
• 48:26
  Can you hear mine? I'm.
• 48:28
  So hungry I. Feel like every other word.
• 48:31
  My stomach was like and like my. Body's definitely like feed me.
• 48:38
  It's OK. Tell me we're almost there.