Latest / C3 Connecting, Coaches, Cognition / From Walkthroughs to Wins with Justin Baeder

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From Walkthroughs to Wins with Justin Baeder · C3 Connecting, Coaches, Cognition

• 0:15
  Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin and I'm here with Sandy Heiser.
• 0:20
  We're so excited to welcome Sandy to the podcast. Sandy, can you tell us a little
• 0:25
  bit about yourself and how you ended up here?
• 0:28
  Sure, I'm happy to be here. This happens to be my 30th year in education.
• 0:33
  I started as a high school social studies teacher, but I taught high school,
• 0:39
  middle school, and I became a middle school instructional coach in 2009.
• 0:45
  And it really changed the way I looked at education.
• 0:49
  I loved that job so much. From there, I ended up going into administration.
• 0:53
  So I've been an assistant principal at the middle high school level.
• 0:58
  I've been a middle school principal.
• 1:00
  And then currently, I am serving as an assistant principal at Skyline High School here in St. Brayne.
• 1:08
  So you really bring an administrative perspective along with your coaching perspective,
• 1:13
  as well as that middle school perspective as well.
• 1:16
  So you're going to really help us to deepen our conversations on C3.
• 1:20
  Yeah, I hope so. I definitely know the administrator side of things,
• 1:26
  but really do try to approach it with a coaching perspective as much as I can.
• 1:30
  Yeah, thank you for that.
• 1:32
  We would like to welcome Justin Bader to C3. Dr.
• 1:35
  Justin Bader is the director of the Principal Center, an organization dedicated
• 1:39
  to enhancing instructional leadership in K-12 education with a Ph.D.
• 1:44
  In educational leadership and policy studies from the University of Washington
• 1:49
  and a master's in curriculum and instruction from Seattle University.
• 1:53
  Dr. Bader combines academic expertise with practical experience.
• 1:57
  He previously served as a principal and teacher in Seattle Public Schools.
• 2:02
  Dr. Bader is the creator of the Instructional Leadership Challenge,
• 2:05
  a program that has supported over 10,000 school leaders across 50 countries
• 2:08
  in making daily classroom visits a consistent practice.
• 2:12
  He is also the author of Now We're Talking, 21 Days to High Performance Instructional
• 2:17
  Leadership, and co-author of Mapping Professional Practice, How to Develop Instructional
• 2:21
  Frameworks to Support Teacher Growth.
• 2:23
  Welcome, Justin. Thanks so much for being on C3. Can you tell us about yourself?
• 2:27
  Sure thing. Well, thank you, Courtney.
• 2:30
  I'm honored to be here and excited to talk about instructional leadership.
• 2:34
  I'm driven by, I don't want to say regret, but reflection on my own time as
• 2:40
  a teacher and principal and, you know, always wanting to be the one who gives good feedback, right?
• 2:46
  I think every principal wants to give good feedback. Every instructional coach
• 2:50
  wants to give good feedback.
• 2:51
  And we all have that, you know, kind of if I knew then what I think I know now,
• 2:56
  maybe things could have been even better than they were.
• 2:58
  But I had a great experience as a principal, got to work with a lot of great
• 3:02
  teachers in Seattle Public Schools.
• 3:05
  And for the last 13 years, I've been an independent consultant and author at
• 3:08
  the Principal Center where I try to help administrators get into classrooms
• 3:12
  and have good feedback conversations that change teacher practice.
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  And as a result of that, make better decisions at the school level.
• 3:20
  I think that's a lot of the connection for me is decision making at the school level.
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  If we can get into conversations with teachers every single day,
• 3:29
  every decision we make as leaders is going to be better. So that's kind of where I'm coming from.
• 3:34
  And I know I can tell this is resonating with Sandy. She's an administrator,
• 3:38
  so I can see her eyes lighting up of like, tell me all the things.
• 3:43
  Well, it's that time too, right? I was in classrooms today doing some informal
• 3:47
  observation. And it's goal setting time as well.
• 3:49
  So it's so relevant what you're talking about. Well, I think so much of what
• 3:53
  we do in the evaluation process from goal setting to formal observations to
• 3:58
  written evaluations is so high stakes precisely because we have so few at bats, right?
• 4:06
  We might do one or two formal observations and that's it for the year.
• 4:09
  So there's a lot of stress, understandably, around this process for teachers.
• 4:14
  There's a lot of stress for administrators.
• 4:16
  And my general take is that the more we make this a normal thing to do,
• 4:21
  the less stressful each individual interaction is.
• 4:24
  And that really increases the chances that it'll be a good interaction, right?
• 4:28
  That it'll be a good conversation. It's like it's kind of like saying,
• 4:30
  all right, you are going to meet the love of your life, but you only get to
• 4:33
  go on one date and then you have to make a decision.
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  It's like, well, that sounds like a good setup for a reality TV show,
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  but not how I would want to live my life.
• 4:40
  Oh, my gosh. You're so right. And you're so and and I feel like with all the
• 4:45
  administrators I've ever worked with, the area where they typically feel the
• 4:50
  most unsure is teacher evaluation every time.
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  So your work is so important.
• 4:58
  And it's full of high stakes decisions that are based on only a fraction of
• 5:04
  the information that exists, right?
• 5:06
  If I'm good at observations, I do everything I'm supposed to do,
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  I'm still going to see what 0.1% of a teacher's teaching in a given year.
• 5:15
  And if I'm really consistent in getting into classrooms, I might see 1%.
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  And yet we have to make decisions on the basis of that tiny,
• 5:22
  tiny proportion of the whole that we see. So yeah, I think the more we can get
• 5:29
  perspective from teachers, the better decisions we're going to make.
• 5:32
  Yeah. Well, with that, why don't I start off our first question?
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  You've written about the importance of feedback being both clear and actionable.
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  So what do you see as the key ingredients of a feedback conversation that actually
• 5:46
  leads to a shift in practice?
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  I think the first key to a feedback conversation that changes practice,
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  and this is going to be kind of step zero, is it has to actually happen.
• 5:57
  And when I talk to people about their goals for classroom walkthroughs or their
• 6:03
  goals for feedback conversations, they often describe to me a very complex process
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  that doesn't seem very doable.
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  And I think we often let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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  So we generate these very complex processes that don't seem likely to be sustainable,
• 6:21
  that don't seem likely to occur on a consistent basis.
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  So I think the first design consideration when we're planning how we're going
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  to approach conversations is, is this something that realistically we can do
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  over and over again, every single day, or pretty close to every single day?
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  And from there, we can build in the elements that are going to have the impact that we want.
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  But often we work the opposite direction and we think, how could I achieve all
• 6:46
  of my wildest dreams as an instructional leader in one conversation,
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  go, and then we develop a process that's so complex, so cumbersome that it just doesn't happen.
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  And I think that's the number one scenario, the number one circumstance that
• 6:59
  people find themselves in is that they have a really great process that they never actually do.
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  Yeah, and if you can't carry it forward, why are we going through the motions?
• 7:09
  We have to launch, right? Exactly. So many leaders worry about balancing encouragement
• 7:14
  with constructive critique.
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  How can feedback conversations strike the right tone so that teachers feel supported
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  but also motivated to make change?
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  I think there does come a time when we need to share critical information with
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  someone, either because they are not aware of it and we need to make them aware
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  so that they can decide what to do, or after they're aware,
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  if they haven't done anything about it, so that we can push for that change that needs to occur.
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  I think most of the time, though, these conversations can happen without that
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  kind of positive and negative judgment on the part of the coach or administrator.
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  And that's the best case scenario to me, because I think in order to change
• 7:56
  their practice, we want teachers to have as much ownership as possible,
• 8:00
  right? We want teachers to say, okay, I am a self-directed learner.
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  You can help me a lot by being in my classroom and talking with me about my practice.
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  But I, as a professional, am going to improve faster if I retain ownership of that practice.
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  And that doesn't always work, right? People sometimes don't retain ownership
• 8:17
  of their practice. But that's what we want to strive for, right?
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  That people can be professionals.
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  That people can be self-directed.
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  So i think the framework that i
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  use for thinking about that issue is is
• 8:31
  one of autonomy and i think of it like a two by two grid and
• 8:34
  i've gotten published in an article here or there but
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  i think about attention and control and i think for most teachers they don't
• 8:43
  get paid very much attention to and i remember in my final year in the classroom
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  thinking you know what nobody's really paying that much attention to what i'm
• 8:50
  doing day to day as a teacher so i think the norm is that people don't pay very
• 8:53
  much attention to teachers most of the time, right?
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  They're in their classroom with their students and nobody else is paying attention.
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  So if you are getting into classrooms, if you are talking with teachers,
• 9:01
  you're definitely in that small percentage of people who are approaching it differently.
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  So I think our obligation as instructional leaders is to pay attention,
• 9:09
  to show up, to engage, to talk, to listen, to be curious, and to get teachers
• 9:15
  telling us about their practice and about their thinking.
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  The second axis of the autonomy matrix is control.
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  Control and sometimes we do need to exert control because
• 9:25
  unacceptable things are happening right we do need to be directive and
• 9:28
  say hey this is really not okay you can't do that or you need to be doing this
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  and you're not so it's appropriate sometimes to be directive but i think often
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  when we're directive we take away the autonomy that teachers need to actually
• 9:41
  do the professional work of teaching and make their own decisions right
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  And I think we can look at a couple of different things that can change as a result of feedback.
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  And the most basic one is behavior. So if we have a behavior that is unacceptable
• 9:55
  on the teacher's part and the behavior needs to change, well,
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  that is a time when we could give directive feedback and be critical and say,
• 10:00
  hey, this is not working or this is not acceptable. I really need you to do X, Y, Z.
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  And, you know, we kind of know those situations when we come to them.
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  They tend to be those kind of bright lines that stand out to us,
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  but they don't apply That, you know, that directive frame,
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  that directive relationship doesn't really apply to most of the decisions that
• 10:23
  teachers make to most of what we see, especially for people who are doing fine.
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  You know, if you have someone who's doing fine, it doesn't really help for me
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  to be the decision maker about your practice, right?
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  We need teachers to retain that ownership of their practice so that we can be a reflective partner.
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  So I think of that role as much more of a coaching role, where it's our job
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  to get at the decision-making that teachers are doing and have an influence
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  at the level of decision-making, rather than simply just kind of second-guess
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  and critique what we saw.
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  So i'm very much about that teacher
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  autonomy and i think when we get a high degree
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  of information we're paying a lot of attention but we're not exercising a lot
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  of control over the teacher's practice we're not being directive when we don't
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  need to be that's when we have what i call professional autonomy now in the
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  shift from ignoring teachers and staying out of their classrooms and leaving
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  them completely alone sometimes we go to the opposite extreme and go from low attention,
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  low control to high attention, high control.
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  And I think sometimes we aspire to that because we think it would give us the
• 11:26
  opportunity to help people improve more.
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  But what I think that often turns out to be is micromanagement.
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  When we exert a high degree of control over someone else's professional work,
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  I don't know a better term for that than micromanagement because if it's professional
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  work, the professional needs to own it. And the professional who needs to own it is not me.
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  It's the teacher in the classroom doing the teaching. So I think we need to,
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  as much as possible, avoid grabbing the steering wheel in teachers' classrooms.
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  Unless there's a serious issue that needs an immediate change,
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  I think we want teachers to have their hands on the wheel most of the time. Nope, getting.
• 12:00
  Courtney, this is making me think so much about cognitive coaching right now.
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  Courtney and I are facilitating the foundation seminar right now of cognitive
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  coaching and everything you're saying, Justin,
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  just trying to create self-directed people and have people own their own journey
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  and their own progress. It's everything you just said.
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  Sandy, it's like you were reading my mind. Yes.
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  In your experience, what are some common pitfalls leaders fall into during feedback
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  conversations that maybe make them less effective or even counterproductive?
• 12:35
  Yeah, I think one choice that we make sometimes is to do a postmortem on the
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  lesson rather than to just get the teacher's reflections on the lesson.
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  And sometimes we do that postmortem so that we have the opportunity to suggest
• 12:49
  what could have been done differently.
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  But I think that type of feedback or that type of critique is too late to really
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  make any difference in terms of what actually happens during the lesson,
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  right? The lesson is over.
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  Our opportunity in these conversations is really at the level of teacher judgment, right?
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  When we're trying to improve teaching, we're not just focused on,
• 13:11
  you know, the physical actions, the things that took place on that particular day.
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  Our big leverage on teaching practice is on professional judgment because professional
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  judgment is what guides those decisions every single day.
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  So if I saw something in a lesson that I didn't think was very great,
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  maybe time was wasted, maybe something was unclear, maybe I didn't like the
• 13:31
  way behavior was handled, I can critique that, but I have to recognize that that's a postmortem.
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  It's second-guessing what the teacher did. And what I'm really interested in
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  for the purposes of change and growth and improvement is what's the judgment behind that decision?
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  What's going on in the teacher's mind that led to that choice that I didn't
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  particularly love? That's what I'm interested in.
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  And yet we have to be very careful about how we ask that because,
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  you know, if we're not careful, that can be, what were you thinking?
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  Why did you do that? And of course, that's kind of a confrontational question.
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  So I think a better way to frame that is curiosity.
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  You know, tell me about what went into that. Tell me, you know,
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  what was kind of going through your mind when that student got up and started
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  walking around the room.
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  And if we press for elaboration rather
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  than justification we learn a lot more and we can
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  figure out okay why did they do what they did it's not
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  enough for me to just say you should have done something different i'm trying
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  to develop a person who will independently have judgment that i'm happier with
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  right that i don't have to come around and second guess because we're on the
• 14:35
  same page as far as the thinking and the decision making but often we don't
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  get to the why behind the decision and asking why directly makes people defensive.
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  So I think we've really got to press for elaboration and ask open-ended questions
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  that get people to share their thinking.
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  I think that's the most valuable thing we can do in a feedback conversation
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  is get the teacher to share their thinking because their thinking is what produced
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  the teaching that we sought.
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  It's so important to give them the space for self-reflection and then to walk
• 15:05
  through that metacognitive process of like, what were the decisions that you made?
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  If you were to go back again, would you make that same decision and really get
• 15:13
  them to recognize those metacognitive cues of what would be different maybe the next time?
• 15:17
  Well, and I think often the answers that we get when we press for elaboration
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  or the insights that we get about the teacher's thinking leave us wanting to
• 15:28
  change something that we may not be able to change in the moment,
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  right? We want to immediately fix it. We want to give advice.
• 15:35
  And when it comes to professional judgment, often there's not a quick fix, right?
• 15:40
  I can't just tell someone, do better, right? Right.
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  It's it's it's a very limited ability that teachers have to just do better when
• 15:48
  we say do better. Like you made a dumb decision.
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  Don't make dumb decisions. Well, that's not very, you know, we would be pretty
• 15:53
  upset if a coach told our kid that on the on the field.
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  And that's not especially useful. So we have to kind of unpack the,
• 16:02
  you know, the background.
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  For example, one reason I think that at the elementary level,
• 16:08
  we often see teachers struggle to teach math is that they don't have a strong
• 16:13
  content background in math.
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  Math was not their favorite subject. They didn't do particularly well in math.
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  And that's not something we can fix by giving feedback. Hey,
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  be better at math. Well, that is absolutely useless as feedback.
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  But what it is useful for is our decision making. We might realize at the school
• 16:29
  level, or I might have a few people that I need to send for training in a particular area.
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  That's the kind of action that we could take that would actually improve the teacher's judgment.
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  Me saying, hey, be better at this or, you know, don't do what you did.
• 16:41
  Do what I would have done in your shoes. You know, that's not going to be nearly as helpful.
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  Yeah, nine times out of ten, most teachers know their areas of weakness.
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  So instead of highlighting them, how do we build capacity and get them what
• 16:54
  they need so they can elevate their practice?
• 16:57
  Yeah. And if it was something that is fixable through second-guessing,
• 17:03
  who's the best person to do that second-guessing, right?
• 17:05
  It's the teacher who is sitting there reflecting with you and is eager to show
• 17:09
  that they're ready and willing to improve. So often we don't need to be the
• 17:13
  ones, you know, grabbing the steering wheel there.
• 17:16
  If people know, hey, here's an opportunity I missed. Here's what I could do
• 17:19
  differently. Here's what I'll be on the lookout for next time.
• 17:22
  Yeah, and building this culture of reflection helps people to start doing that
• 17:26
  on their own and coming into a space ready to admit maybe some things that didn't
• 17:31
  go as great versus a situation where they feel they have to come in on the defensive
• 17:35
  and be ready to kind of plead their case of why things didn't go the way they had wanted. Yeah.
• 17:41
  Absolutely. Absolutely. So you alluded to this a little bit earlier,
• 17:46
  but if you could go a little deeper,
• 17:47
  how can school leaders or coaches ensure that feedback isn't just a one-time
• 17:51
  conversation, but part of an ongoing cycle that results in measurable improvement
• 17:56
  in classroom instruction?
• 17:58
  I think we want that impact and we want it quickly and we want it every time.
• 18:02
  So we think, well, I've been getting into classrooms and observing teachers once or twice a year.
• 18:07
  Well, what if I just did that a lot more often?
• 18:10
  Well, one thing that we're going to have to accept is that many of those interactions
• 18:15
  are not going to lead to much. And I think that's okay.
• 18:18
  And I think accepting that is really essential to being consistent about it, right?
• 18:25
  To saying, okay, this is not going to be life-changing every single time.
• 18:29
  Sometimes it's going to be a dud.
• 18:30
  Sometimes I'm going to come into the classroom and the kids are working on essays
• 18:34
  and they're doing great. You know, they're using their time productively.
• 18:37
  They're using what the teacher taught them. But there's not really a lot of
• 18:40
  teaching that I can give feedback on.
• 18:42
  And that's okay. If I'm afraid of that reality, then I'm going to avoid getting
• 18:47
  in the classroom in the first place.
• 18:48
  I have to be willing to say, hey, you know, I stopped by today.
• 18:52
  Looks like students are hard at work. I'll see you later.
• 18:54
  That kind of thing is going to happen all the time if you're in classrooms all the time.
• 18:58
  It doesn't happen if we set it up and say, okay, this is the day.
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  This is the high stakes day when you're going to be observed and evaluated.
• 19:05
  Well, then, of course, people put on a dog and pony show to make sure that we see something good.
• 19:10
  But it's kind of fake. You know, it's a little bit artificial.
• 19:14
  And hopefully, it's indicative of what the teacher's capable of.
• 19:17
  But I think everybody knows it's not a normal day.
• 19:21
  Because it's been set aside for this purpose, because it's been so prepared for and anticipated.
• 19:26
  So I think on a normal basis, we just have to expect it's going to be hit or
• 19:30
  miss. We're going to see some things that are really worth talking about.
• 19:33
  And we're going to come when kids are taking a test and there's almost nothing to talk about.
• 19:37
  And what I think some people do in those situations is they try to find something.
• 19:43
  Anything, and that does not work, right?
• 19:46
  If you try to give somebody a suggestion when you don't have any suggestions,
• 19:50
  or you try to give somebody a compliment, when you don't have any compliments,
• 19:53
  people can tell that it's fake, right?
• 19:56
  People can tell that you don't really mean it. You just had to say something.
• 19:59
  You had a box to fill in your mind or on paper.
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  And it just doesn't ring true.
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  And I think because we know that, we tend to just not engage.
• 20:08
  We just tend to not show up at all when we know, and this is not going to be
• 20:11
  real feedback, but I have to give feedback. So I might as well say something kind of pointless.
• 20:14
  Well, you're going to find something else to do as a school leader.
• 20:17
  You've got plenty else to do, and it's going to keep you from getting into classrooms at all.
• 20:21
  So I think we've just got to lower the stakes and be okay with only some of
• 20:25
  the time feeling like we're having a real impact through those conversations.
• 20:29
  I love that, Justin, because you're talking about it's almost as like permission
• 20:33
  as an administrator if you are a little bit stressed or insecure about instructional
• 20:37
  leadership or evaluation.
• 20:39
  It's like you're giving tools to help people get better at it,
• 20:43
  but also like in a way, give yourself some grace, give yourself a break.
• 20:47
  It doesn't have to be perfect.
• 20:49
  Absolutely. And I think we have in our minds this sweet spot where there's low
• 20:54
  hanging fruit for improvement, right? We see something that we can say something about.
• 20:58
  And just by saying it, just by having a conversation, we can make somebody better.
• 21:02
  That does happen, right? That does happen sometimes, especially with new teachers
• 21:07
  who are making kind of obvious mistakes that we'll be able to see,
• 21:09
  give them some good advice on.
• 21:11
  We can actually see some pretty big improvement. but that's
• 21:14
  kind of rare right like you might have a significant number of
• 21:17
  new teachers and you can stay busy with that for a while but if you
• 21:19
  have lots of veteran teachers who are very strong that was my situation
• 21:23
  as a principal i had lots of people who had been in
• 21:25
  the building for 10 years 20 years 25 years and were just really really good
• 21:30
  so they weren't making obvious mistakes there was not a lot of low-hanging fruit
• 21:34
  people were doing really really well and i realized i'm not gonna be able to
• 21:37
  bluff my way through this and if i do try to find things to critique they're
• 21:42
  going to be very, very petty, right?
• 21:44
  If you are an amazing teacher, if I force myself to critique you,
• 21:48
  that critique is going to have to be about something very minor and very petty,
• 21:51
  or I'm going to have to pick some sort of big philosophical difference to fight
• 21:55
  over, and that's not going to be good either.
• 21:58
  So that's one extreme. We have people who are great and don't need that kind
• 22:01
  of low-hanging fruit feedback.
• 22:03
  On the other hand, we might have people who are struggling so much that our
• 22:07
  words alone are not enough to get them where they need to be.
• 22:10
  They need some sort of more intensive help, whether that is training,
• 22:15
  whether that is coaching, whether that is somebody sitting in their classroom
• 22:17
  with them and guiding them, whether that is a change in their responsibilities.
• 22:22
  So most of the time, we're outside of that sweet spot. We're outside of that
• 22:25
  range where there's easy feedback that can change practice.
• 22:28
  And we're working with people who either don't need that feedback or it's not enough.
• 22:33
  And I think we've just got to recognize that reality and not try to force those
• 22:37
  other situations into the, you know, the low-hanging fruit situation.
• 22:42
  Well, if a leader wants to elevate their feedback practice, what is one strategy
• 22:48
  or shift you would suggest they try in their very next conversation?
• 22:52
  This is a strategy, but a mindset of curiosity.
• 22:56
  I think assuming that we don't know everything based on what we saw is one of
• 23:03
  the most important things we can do as leaders.
• 23:05
  After getting into classrooms in the first place, if we
• 23:07
  just think okay there's thinking here that i'm not
• 23:10
  privy to we're headed somewhere and you know the students are headed somewhere in
• 23:13
  this unit that i'm not fully up to speed on
• 23:16
  if we can approach that interaction with the teacher with some curiosity we
• 23:22
  will end up in much more productive places because the teacher with their hands
• 23:26
  on the steering wheel will take us there and they'll tell us here's what i'm
• 23:29
  thinking here's what i'm already you know balancing here the trade-offs i'm
• 23:33
  making. Here's where I think we're going.
• 23:36
  Usually that takes us somewhere much more productive than if we just pick something at random to critique.
• 23:42
  So I think that curiosity really is the number one recommendation I have.
• 23:47
  I love that. And just the fact that you, oh, a couple of things going back to
• 23:51
  you talking about just your attention and presence in the classroom.
• 23:55
  Most, many, many teachers who've been in the classroom for a long time are just
• 24:00
  used to evaluation being kind of an afterthought in a lot of cases.
• 24:05
  And then also, so just your presence, your attention, and then that idea you
• 24:10
  just spoke about now, which is just acknowledging that there's a lot going on
• 24:15
  here that I was not part of, is such a big deal for teachers.
• 24:20
  Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're going to shift now to our rapid fire portion
• 24:25
  of the podcast. So in about 15 seconds or less, we don't have a buzzer or anything,
• 24:30
  so no pressure. Where can we learn more from you?
• 24:33
  I have a lot of articles. PrincipalCenter.com slash FAQ has my rapid advice
• 24:40
  on classroom walkthroughs.
• 24:42
  So that's my classroom walkthrough FAQ, PrincipalCenter.com slash FAQ.
• 24:45
  And that's a great place to start. It's got lots of links to other resources. Thank you.
• 24:50
  What's one strategy every coach should have in their back pocket?
• 24:54
  I think I would say patience and recognizing that often people need more than
• 25:00
  we can give in the conversation.
• 25:02
  So our goal in the conversation should be to try to figure out what that is,
• 25:06
  even if it means not really doing anything in the moment.
• 25:09
  If you had 60 seconds with a new teacher, what's the one thing you'd tell them?
• 25:13
  I would tell them, this is a hard job, but it's a rewarding one.
• 25:16
  And it's one that has a long learning curve, but it's worth climbing.
• 25:20
  So please don't quit. Don't give up. It'll be worth it. And you'll get there.
• 25:23
  Thank you so much for your time today. We learned so much and we appreciate you joining us on C3.
• 25:28
  Thank you. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thanks, Justin.
• 25:32
  Justin shared great insight into how to get into classrooms and make the experience
• 25:36
  of giving feedback positive.
• 25:38
  One of the things he stressed is the importance of consistent classroom observations
• 25:42
  and making feedback a normal low-stakes practice.
• 25:45
  How might you begin to do this today? As coaches, how might you support your
• 25:48
  administrators in this task?
• 25:50
  Thanks for listening to another episode of C3. Be sure to follow us on social media.