Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 423] Nirvana, Pearl Jam & Soundgarden: How Grunge Took Over Rock with Gillian Gaar

Transcript

[EP 423] Nirvana, Pearl Jam & Soundgarden: How Grunge Took Over Rock with Gillian Gaar · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: Did you get the feeling that these bands were going
0:02
Speaker 1: to explode the way they did?
0:04
Speaker 2: I thought that bands would get to like a Sonic
0:06
Speaker 2: Youth type of level. Because Sonic Youth signed to a
0:09
Speaker 2: major label, they signed to DGC. And that just seemed
0:11
Speaker 2: to be the ultimate. Because you'd be on a major
0:14
Speaker 2: label that would release your records, and you'd sell 100,000
0:16
Speaker 2: to 200,000. That sounded pretty good. You could tour and
0:20
Speaker 2: not play a club, you could play a theater. And
0:22
Speaker 2: you wouldn't need a day job. You'd be set then.
0:24
Speaker 1: Then came Nirvana's Nevermind.
0:26
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. we're totally booked rock and roll well i
0:31
Speaker 2: think i'll leave you to your reading little hand says
0:33
Speaker 2: it's time.
0:33
Speaker 1: To rock and roll we are totally booked welcome back
0:43
Speaker 1: to booked on rock conversations with authors musicians and insiders
0:48
Speaker 1: revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs albums and
0:51
Speaker 1: artists i'm eric senich thanks for Joining us once again,
0:55
Speaker 1: and we want to thank all of our Patreon supporters
0:57
Speaker 1: as well. You can get the Backstage Pass, get every
1:01
Speaker 1: episode commercial-free in audio and video, along with early access
1:05
Speaker 1: to new episodes. If you'd like to grab the Backstage Pass,
1:08
Speaker 1: it's just $ 5 a month. Click the link in the
1:10
Speaker 1: show notes or go to BookDownRock.com. Now, on to the
1:14
Speaker 1: show and our returning guest, Jillian Garr. She returns to
1:18
Speaker 1: talk about her brand-new book, Grunge, the Story of... of
1:21
Speaker 1: the music that redefined rock. The longtime Seattle journalist takes
1:25
Speaker 1: us back to the Pacific Northwest scene that exploded in
1:28
Speaker 1: the early 90s and changed rock music forever. Drawing on
1:32
Speaker 1: rare photographs, memorabilia, and her own interviews with many of
1:35
Speaker 1: the people who were there, Gar traces the rise of Nirvana,
1:39
Speaker 1: Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, and the band's venues
1:43
Speaker 1: and labels that helped turn a regional underground movement into
1:46
Speaker 1: a worldwide phenomenon. Welcome back, Jillian.
1:49
Speaker 2: Hello, it's great to be back.
1:51
Speaker 1: How long were you in Seattle at that time? Were
1:55
Speaker 1: you there for the whole rise of grunge?
1:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I came up here to Seattle with my
2:02
Speaker 2: parents in the 60s. So I was, you know, we
2:04
Speaker 2: last then. So yeah, I was there from start to finish. Wow.
2:09
Speaker 1: You still live there now?
2:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
2:11
Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
2:12
Speaker 2: Beautiful Seattle right now.
2:14
Speaker 1: Wow, that's cool. Well, so you know about this scene,
2:17
Speaker 1: and I guess the first question is, you know, we
2:19
Speaker 1: know the songs, we know the bands, but how important
2:22
Speaker 1: also was that community being in place first to help
2:28
Speaker 1: really launch that whole scene?
2:30
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say it was key because it just kind
2:33
Speaker 2: of grew out of friends playing together. At that time,
2:38
Speaker 2: like the mid-80s, there was no thought of getting big success.
2:44
Speaker 2: But Bruce Pavitt, who co-founded Sub Pop Records, his idea
2:48
Speaker 2: was that, well, you know, scenes in your own town
2:50
Speaker 2: are interesting, too. You don't have to go to New
2:53
Speaker 2: York or L.A. as people were doing. I mean, sometimes
2:57
Speaker 2: it worked out always like Duff McKagan went down to L.A.
3:01
Speaker 2: from Seattle and he ended up at Guns N' Roses.
3:05
Speaker 2: So not bad for him. But then I like to
3:08
Speaker 2: point out I'd forgotten that people cite Duff as the
3:11
Speaker 2: success story. But you were more likely. To have the
3:15
Speaker 2: experience of Mike McCready, who was in a metal band
3:18
Speaker 2: called Shadow. And they went down to L.A. and didn't
3:23
Speaker 2: make it big and came back up to Seattle. And
3:26
Speaker 2: I think that was the experience for most of those bands.
3:29
Speaker 2: Mike ended up okay because he joined a band called
3:31
Speaker 2: Pearl Jam. Yes. So that worked out. But that was
3:34
Speaker 2: in Seattle.
3:36
Speaker 1: I didn't know he went to L.A. to form that
3:38
Speaker 1: band and then came back.
3:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. In fact, even, I mean, you look back,
3:42
Speaker 2: you know, it's a community. And in 86, you have
3:44
Speaker 2: Green River that recorded for Sub Pop. And then they
3:49
Speaker 2: break up. And some of them go into Mother Love
3:51
Speaker 2: Bone and the others go into Mudhoney. And then Mother
3:55
Speaker 2: Love Bone comes to an end when Andrew Wood dies.
3:57
Speaker 2: And then Girl Jam. So see, it keeps evolving out
4:00
Speaker 2: of that same community.
4:01
Speaker 1: Sure. And there was the independent record labels and the
4:04
Speaker 1: fanzines and local radio and It really was a community
4:08
Speaker 1: that supported each other.
4:10
Speaker 2: Well, also, I was saying this the other day, and
4:13
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about it in these terms, but when
4:16
Speaker 2: you're looking from a distance, you can kind of see
4:18
Speaker 2: the patterns. In one way, that was just kind of
4:20
Speaker 2: natural because there weren't that many clubs where you could
4:23
Speaker 2: play original music because clubs usually like bands that played
4:27
Speaker 2: songs everybody knew, so they could dance and buy more alcohol.
4:30
Speaker 2: And there wasn't as much of a draw for original music. So...
4:34
Speaker 2: There would be maybe at any one time only two
4:37
Speaker 2: or three clubs that had bands with original music. So
4:40
Speaker 2: you'd see the same people at all the shows because
4:43
Speaker 2: these were the only clubs that offered original music.
4:46
Speaker 1: Did you get the feeling that these bands were going
4:49
Speaker 1: to explode the way they did?
4:51
Speaker 2: I thought Mudhoney was going to be the big band. Oh, yeah.
4:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
4:55
Speaker 2: Which shows. So that's why I'm not, you know, the
4:58
Speaker 2: owner of a record label. I didn't really understand how
5:02
Speaker 2: success like that could be possible. I didn't know how
5:05
Speaker 2: it worked. And I think maybe Bruce and John thought
5:09
Speaker 2: that could happen, but I think even they didn't anticipate
5:12
Speaker 2: the tidal wave of 92. What I thought was that
5:16
Speaker 2: bands in Seattle, because they were starting to get signed
5:18
Speaker 2: to major labels, the Soundgarden and Alice in Chains had
5:20
Speaker 2: been signed to major labels before Nirvana came along. And
5:26
Speaker 2: I thought that bands would get to like a Sonic
5:28
Speaker 2: Youth type of level. Because Sonic Youth signed to a
5:31
Speaker 2: major label. They signed to DGC. And that just seemed
5:34
Speaker 2: to be like the ultimate. Because you'd be on a
5:37
Speaker 2: major label that would release your records. And you'd sell 100,000
5:40
Speaker 2: to 200,000. That sounded pretty good. You could tour and
5:44
Speaker 2: not play a club. You could play a theater. And
5:46
Speaker 2: you wouldn't need a day job. And that just kind
5:48
Speaker 2: of seemed to, you know, you'd be set then.
5:51
Speaker 1: And then came Nirvana's Nevermind. That's what changed everything. Yeah, yeah.
5:59
Speaker 1: You write about this Deep Six compilation. Talk about this.
6:02
Speaker 1: This had Green River Soundgarden, the Melvins, a band called Malfunction,
6:06
Speaker 1: Skin Yard, and the U-Men.
6:08
Speaker 2: Well, I think this is where it's sort of the
6:11
Speaker 2: first document where you see the scene coalescing because Sub
6:16
Speaker 2: Pop 100 came out the same year, but that wasn't
6:18
Speaker 2: just a New York compilation. Bruce Pavitt brought in indie
6:21
Speaker 2: bands from all around the country and I think even
6:23
Speaker 2: one from Canada. But these this couple that had come
6:29
Speaker 2: from Boston and ironically they were inspired by another Seattle compilation. Um,
6:35
Speaker 2: the name escapes me. I should think Seattle syndrome. There
6:38
Speaker 2: were two volumes that had the indie bands at that time.
6:41
Speaker 2: And they thought, they thought, wow, this is interesting stuff
6:43
Speaker 2: going on in Seattle. Let's go out there and make
6:45
Speaker 2: a compilation ourselves. So they went out there and, and
6:49
Speaker 2: opened a studio, um, which didn't last that long, but, um,
6:54
Speaker 2: they began the, uh, Because they had cheap rates, that's
6:57
Speaker 2: how they got to know the local bands. And that's
7:00
Speaker 2: how they met Soundgarden and the other bands around at
7:03
Speaker 2: that time and took suggestions from them. Who else should
7:06
Speaker 2: we put on this compilation? And they were looking for
7:09
Speaker 2: new indie bands that weren't releasing records. I think for
7:13
Speaker 2: a number of bands, well, except the Melvins and the
7:16
Speaker 2: You Men, I don't think any of the other bands
7:19
Speaker 2: on there had released a record. Malfunction might have. Maybe
7:24
Speaker 2: they had a tape, but I'm not sure. So for
7:26
Speaker 2: a lot of them, it was their debut appearance. The
7:29
Speaker 2: U-Men were a bit older. They were sort of slightly
7:32
Speaker 2: from the old guard. They were still an indie rock band,
7:34
Speaker 2: but I would say they were pre-grunge, and they didn't
7:40
Speaker 2: fully make the transition. They sort of fell apart before then.
7:43
Speaker 2: But it brought together all these bands that, as I
7:46
Speaker 2: think I wrote, they didn't all sound the same, but
7:48
Speaker 2: they had a similar aesthetic. So that's why it worked thematically,
7:52
Speaker 2: the album did. And, uh, I think crucially you had
7:55
Speaker 2: the Melvins who I think were the originators of grunge.
7:59
Speaker 2: That's where I would say grunge started with the Melvins.
8:03
Speaker 1: I've heard that before.
8:04
Speaker 2: Yeah. And they were not even in Seattle. You know,
8:06
Speaker 2: they were in Aberdeen and Modestina, uh, smaller towns, but
8:11
Speaker 2: they were playing punk stuff. And, uh, then they slowed
8:14
Speaker 2: it down. And, uh, the drop detuning seems to be the,
8:18
Speaker 2: the key here. Um, Buzz Osborne of the Melvins showed
8:22
Speaker 2: Soundgarden the drop detuning and how it works in records.
8:25
Speaker 2: And so Soundgarden began writing songs in that, which means
8:29
Speaker 2: tuning your bass string down so the music has a deeper,
8:31
Speaker 2: heavier sound. And so you could say the Melvins invented grunge.
8:36
Speaker 2: But remember, music evolves. It always builds on what came
8:39
Speaker 2: before and your own influences. And the Melvins didn't invent
8:43
Speaker 2: the drop detuning. They got it from Black Sabbath. So
8:46
Speaker 2: did Black Sabbath invent grunge. But then who were Black
8:49
Speaker 2: Sabbath's influences. And it goes, you know, it keeps going back.
8:55
Speaker 1: Green River, you mentioned them. They brought together musicians who
8:58
Speaker 1: would eventually end up in Mudhoney and Mother Love Bone
9:02
Speaker 1: and later Pearl Jam. When you look back at Green
9:05
Speaker 1: River's music, is there something that you hear there where
9:08
Speaker 1: it was already taking shape, where you see that they
9:13
Speaker 1: become important to those later bands? Was there something there?
9:17
Speaker 2: Well, kind of what you see in that band, especially
9:19
Speaker 2: towards their end, is the kind of split that would develop.
9:23
Speaker 2: Because Mark Orme was more on the indie rock side,
9:27
Speaker 2: and Jeff Ahmet and Stone Gossett, they wanted to go
9:31
Speaker 2: in a more commercial direction. And so you could, at first,
9:36
Speaker 2: those disparate influences worked together, but then they started working
9:41
Speaker 2: against each other. And the band wasn't happy and they
9:44
Speaker 2: wanted to go in different directions. And I think subsequent bands,
9:47
Speaker 2: they may really show that, you know, Mudhoney really still
9:50
Speaker 2: is a indie rock type of thing. Um, Blue Chair,
9:55
Speaker 2: Iggy Pop, it's, it's Sonics, even all that kind of
9:58
Speaker 2: stuff on that side where, um, the other guys, first
10:02
Speaker 2: they were Mother Love Bone, which had more of a
10:04
Speaker 2: metal feel, although with Andrew Wood, he kind of sent
10:08
Speaker 2: it up. He wouldn't say it was hair metal exactly
10:11
Speaker 2: because Andy Wood just always had his tongue in cheek
10:14
Speaker 2: and he was just very big and flamboyant and who
10:17
Speaker 2: knows what would have happened if If Andy had not
10:21
Speaker 2: died and that band had gone, there wouldn't be a
10:24
Speaker 2: Pearl Jam. Or if there was eventually a Pearl Jam,
10:27
Speaker 2: it would not be the Pearl Jam of today. So
10:29
Speaker 2: many kind of what-ifs.
10:32
Speaker 1: I throw out those what-ifs all the time, and I'm
10:34
Speaker 1: always fascinated by those. Yeah, how that could have changed
10:37
Speaker 1: the course of music history.
10:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you never know.
10:40
Speaker 1: Jack Andino becomes increasingly important to the Seattle Sound as
10:44
Speaker 1: both a musician and a producer. What did he bring
10:46
Speaker 1: to the recording process that allowed these bands to sound raw,
10:50
Speaker 1: and powerful without simply sounding poorly recorded.
10:54
Speaker 2: Well, he was a musician himself, which I think is
10:57
Speaker 2: a help for a producer because I think you can
10:59
Speaker 2: relate to the musicians better and you know how you
11:01
Speaker 2: want to sound. And he was self-taught. And I mean,
11:06
Speaker 2: the reason they used him was not necessarily because he
11:08
Speaker 2: had this great reputation at first, but because he was cheap.
11:11
Speaker 2: And then when Reciprocal Studio started, they had inexpensive rates.
11:16
Speaker 2: So that was how he ended up working there. And
11:20
Speaker 2: even some of that was kind of by chance. Nirvana
11:23
Speaker 2: is supposed to have wanted to record there because they
11:26
Speaker 2: like the sound of Soundgarden's records. And so when they
11:29
Speaker 2: made their first demo at Reciprocal and Kurt called, Jack
11:33
Speaker 2: and Dino had just, he picked up the phone and
11:36
Speaker 2: he made the booking. And, you know, you think he
11:40
Speaker 2: wasn't the only engineer working at that studio. He called
11:43
Speaker 2: himself an engineer. He didn't like calling himself a producer.
11:46
Speaker 2: You see that on his on those early sub pop records.
11:49
Speaker 2: I know in another time I talked to him, he
11:51
Speaker 2: said he didn't really feel he merited the title of
11:54
Speaker 2: producer yet. He wasn't experienced enough yet, though, to get there. But,
11:59
Speaker 2: you know, what if another engineer had worked with Nirvana
12:03
Speaker 2: that day? There was that element. Even though it was
12:06
Speaker 2: the same studio. I mean, in a way, you can
12:11
Speaker 2: almost compare it to Sam Phillips and Son Records in Memphis.
12:16
Speaker 2: It was a similar kind of thing. You know, Sun
12:19
Speaker 2: Records is, Sun Studios hallowed ground now and you could
12:23
Speaker 2: tour it and I've toured it. But, you know, it
12:26
Speaker 2: wasn't a very big place and it didn't have top
12:29
Speaker 2: of the line equipment. It had the best that Sam
12:31
Speaker 2: Phillips could afford. And that was the same at Reciprocal.
12:36
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if Sam even had four track. Mine
12:39
Speaker 2: just had two track. But Reciprocal had eight track. Woo.
12:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, big time.
12:46
Speaker 2: And even then, even then in the 80s, though, I mean,
12:48
Speaker 2: you could go to another studio and they would certainly
12:50
Speaker 2: have at least 16 and more than that. And yeah,
12:55
Speaker 2: it was I haven't been inside reciprocal, but I know
12:58
Speaker 2: Jack and others have told me it's very small and
13:00
Speaker 2: the control room is very small, too. So but working
13:05
Speaker 2: in those kind of environments, I think also forces you
13:08
Speaker 2: to be more imaginative and creative to sort of get over,
13:11
Speaker 2: get around the the. technological obstacles that are inherent to
13:18
Speaker 2: working at a lower end level.
13:21
Speaker 1: Let's talk Mudhoney again, because there's that song, Touch Me,
13:24
Speaker 1: I'm Sick, which is, that's one of the defining early
13:27
Speaker 1: sub-pop singles. What was it about that song and the
13:31
Speaker 1: way Mudhoney wrote and recorded that song that made it
13:34
Speaker 1: sound so, it sounded so immediate and unlike most rock
13:37
Speaker 1: records that were being made at that time?
13:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there I think you pinned it down by
13:42
Speaker 2: saying it sounded unlike most rock records at the time.
13:45
Speaker 2: I think, you know, that's a huge thing, a song
13:47
Speaker 2: that doesn't have to be rock. But I always think
13:50
Speaker 2: of Tracy Chapman's Fast Car as the same kind of thing.
13:54
Speaker 2: And that more would talk about teen spirit. We could
13:56
Speaker 2: certainly see it with Touch Me, I'm Sick. I mean,
14:00
Speaker 2: there was nothing like that on the radio. And certainly
14:05
Speaker 2: it's a folk song or, you know, acoustic-based folk song.
14:09
Speaker 2: That in itself wasn't new, but there was nothing else
14:11
Speaker 2: like that out at the time. And, you know, people
14:14
Speaker 2: would describe pulling their car over like, what is this?
14:18
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, Touch Me, I'm Sick had that same
14:22
Speaker 2: kind of raw, unexpected feeling to it. I also think,
14:28
Speaker 2: you know, it's a song. I mean, it's a song
14:30
Speaker 2: about sickness. It's kind of an anti-love song. you know,
14:34
Speaker 2: it's not about so many songs, even, even indie rock
14:38
Speaker 2: songs are about love or relationships that you are in
14:41
Speaker 2: love or you want to be in love or you're
14:43
Speaker 2: in love, but it's troubled or something like that. And
14:47
Speaker 2: this sort of flips that on its head, you know,
14:51
Speaker 2: sickness and disease. And, um, I've always thought maybe there
14:56
Speaker 2: was the early eighties. And then as we went into
14:59
Speaker 2: the decade, you know, that was the era of AIDS that, uh,
15:02
Speaker 2: at that made the news and everyone was concerned about it.
15:05
Speaker 2: And especially in the early years, it was uncertain, how
15:08
Speaker 2: was this transmitted? So people were thinking more, I think,
15:11
Speaker 2: about disease. And I think that was kind of a
15:14
Speaker 2: subtle tie-in.
15:15
Speaker 1: Bruce and Jonathan at Sub Pop talk about their ability
15:19
Speaker 1: to market that music. They signed Mudhoney, they signed Soundgarden.
15:26
Speaker 1: They deliberately promoted the idea of a distinctive Seattle sound.
15:30
Speaker 1: So how much of that that coming explosion was driven
15:34
Speaker 1: by their ability to realize how to market that scene
15:37
Speaker 1: to the rest of the world.
15:39
Speaker 2: Well, they signed bands that they liked. So not, they
15:42
Speaker 2: didn't sign bands just because they thought they could be popular.
15:46
Speaker 2: Like say a major label signed someone because they expect
15:48
Speaker 2: to sell X amount of units, but, uh, indie labels,
15:52
Speaker 2: you know, it's more from the heart. Yeah. We really
15:54
Speaker 2: like this. So they're a lot more, they're personally invested
15:57
Speaker 2: in having this stuff do well. And, um, you know,
16:01
Speaker 2: they're different personalities, but in, for the most part, certainly
16:05
Speaker 2: then they just, they just seem to blend so well. I,
16:07
Speaker 2: I did a book on sub pop records. So I
16:10
Speaker 2: talked to each of them, Bruce and John at length.
16:13
Speaker 2: And it was just interesting to see how they, how
16:16
Speaker 2: they came together because Bruce had been putting out a
16:19
Speaker 2: fancy and cassette zines and sub pop 100. And then
16:22
Speaker 2: he wanted to just move to putting out records entirely. And, uh,
16:28
Speaker 2: he was very influenced by, um, labels that had a
16:31
Speaker 2: strong image like you could say sun or a blue
16:35
Speaker 2: note the jazz label motown obviously a big one he
16:39
Speaker 2: wanted to have a label that was as important as
16:42
Speaker 2: the bands to where the kind of label where people
16:46
Speaker 2: would pick it up because it was on that label
16:48
Speaker 2: even if they didn't know the artist so he was
16:50
Speaker 2: already thinking about what we call branding and um They
16:55
Speaker 2: were both very interested in Soundgarden and John was desperate
16:58
Speaker 2: to get more involved in the music scene and wanted
17:03
Speaker 2: to do something with Soundgarden. But he knew that Bruce
17:06
Speaker 2: was also talking to them. So, you know, there was
17:08
Speaker 2: this sort of rivalry. But then Kim Thiel brought him
17:11
Speaker 2: together from Soundgarden and said, look, you guys both want
17:16
Speaker 2: to work with us. Why don't you do it together?
17:18
Speaker 2: You each have something you could bring to the table. John,
17:21
Speaker 2: most importantly, had money. He made a big investment in
17:25
Speaker 2: Sub Pop at the beginning borrowed money from family and
17:29
Speaker 2: so on and put that in. So when I talked
17:34
Speaker 2: to Nils Bernstein, who he did publicity for Sub Pop later,
17:40
Speaker 2: he pointed to that, how right away Bruce and John
17:42
Speaker 2: just began promoting this idea that there was all this
17:46
Speaker 2: stuff going on in Seattle, like when they brought Everett
17:50
Speaker 2: Shrew over to write about it for Melody Makers. And
17:53
Speaker 2: there were all these shows that they could take him to.
17:55
Speaker 2: And it just sort of, it gave the impression that
17:57
Speaker 2: there was a cool show in Seattle every night, which
17:59
Speaker 2: was not the case. That wasn't how it worked. That
18:01
Speaker 2: was sort of put on for him. But then Nils said,
18:05
Speaker 2: like positive affirmations, it came true. They just kept promoting
18:10
Speaker 2: this idea that we have these world-crushing bands or the
18:13
Speaker 2: hyperbole they'd use. And then, yeah, it happened. I mean, actually,
18:17
Speaker 2: I guess kind of ironically, when those bands broke through,
18:21
Speaker 2: none of them were on SubPuff anymore. So there was
18:23
Speaker 2: that delay. Though Sub Pop did benefit from that. Bleach,
18:28
Speaker 2: Nirvana's first album, got into the Billboard Top 100, which
18:33
Speaker 2: was the first time any Sub Pop record had made
18:35
Speaker 2: it that high.
18:38
Speaker 1: Wasn't Nirvana, there was a story that Nirvana was getting
18:43
Speaker 1: so big that they couldn't afford to pay what the
18:47
Speaker 1: bigger labels were going to pay. And that was frustrating
18:51
Speaker 1: for them.
18:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sub Pop, they got in a crunch because, well,
18:56
Speaker 2: like Soundgarden eventually moved up to a major label. And, well,
19:01
Speaker 2: let's see, Mother Love Bone was never on Sub Pop. But,
19:04
Speaker 2: you know, there were things happening in Seattle. So the
19:06
Speaker 2: majors were coming, sniffing around. And, yeah, they were trying
19:10
Speaker 2: to lure bands away with big advances. So Sub Pop
19:14
Speaker 2: would try and compensate. And they had to hire lawyers
19:16
Speaker 2: to deal and negotiate with major labels. And they just,
19:22
Speaker 2: they began having big financial troubles.
19:24
Speaker 1: Because they couldn't have anticipated things getting that big. No.
19:28
Speaker 1: That they'd even have that problem.
19:30
Speaker 2: No. I mean, they got to the point where Mudhoney's
19:34
Speaker 2: Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge, the band wasn't sure they
19:37
Speaker 2: wanted Sub Pop to put it out because of all
19:39
Speaker 2: their difficulties. But because of their friendship with Bruce and John,
19:43
Speaker 2: they agreed. And that's when things began to turn around.
19:46
Speaker 2: But yeah, Nirvana, certainly in Nirvana's position, they knew that
19:54
Speaker 2: maybe a major label might take over Sub Pop or
19:57
Speaker 2: there were questions about that. If they stayed with Sub Pop,
20:00
Speaker 2: Sub Pop could negotiate. They're going to a major label.
20:03
Speaker 2: And they just thought, why don't we just cut out
20:04
Speaker 2: the middleman? Why don't we sign to a major label ourselves?
20:09
Speaker 2: instead of staying with Sub Pop or having Sub Pop
20:11
Speaker 2: do that. And yeah, Bruce didn't want to lose them,
20:14
Speaker 2: but in the end he agreed. And you know, you
20:17
Speaker 2: could say, again, kind of these what if moments, maybe
20:20
Speaker 2: that was the best thing to have happened because if
20:23
Speaker 2: they'd stayed on Sub Pop and at least the next album,
20:27
Speaker 2: which wouldn't have been Nevermind, but it would have had
20:29
Speaker 2: some of the same songs, you know, it probably wouldn't
20:32
Speaker 2: have been that million seller. And, you know, in a
20:35
Speaker 2: way you could say they actually made more money by
20:37
Speaker 2: having Nirvana leave the band. Oh, leave the label, leave
20:40
Speaker 2: the label. Because once Nirvana hit, then as we just mentioned,
20:44
Speaker 2: sales of Bleach went out and they put out Incesticide,
20:48
Speaker 2: this compilation that had tracks from the Sub Pop era.
20:51
Speaker 2: They got money from that. And I think the buyout
20:54
Speaker 2: offer also gave them like a percentage of Nirvana's next album.
20:58
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was actually a better move financially for
21:04
Speaker 2: Sub Pop that Nirvana left, kind of ironically.
21:08
Speaker 1: Was there a buzz about Nirvana? Because I've heard that
21:10
Speaker 1: they just became great almost overnight. At first, their early gigs,
21:14
Speaker 1: they were okay. And then all of a sudden, you'd
21:16
Speaker 1: go see them maybe a month or two later, and
21:18
Speaker 1: it was like, wow, this band is definitely going places.
21:21
Speaker 2: Well, by the way, let's see. When did this come out?
21:24
Speaker 2: I'm trying to sort all this. I guess it would
21:25
Speaker 2: have been in late 89. I mean, they put Bleach out.
21:29
Speaker 2: And then they had a session where they recorded a
21:31
Speaker 2: couple songs, and that was for an EP only available
21:35
Speaker 2: in Europe. the Blue EP, B-L-E-W. And it had some
21:39
Speaker 2: new songs, Stain. And I don't know if Even in
21:44
Speaker 2: This Youth was on that one or not. Been a Son,
21:47
Speaker 2: that was at Stain. And they're a lot more melodic.
21:51
Speaker 2: I mean, they're still kind of heavier songs, but Nirvana,
21:55
Speaker 2: I felt, of those big four bands, they had the
21:56
Speaker 2: strongest pop sensibility. So if you were listening, you could
22:01
Speaker 2: see they were moving in this other direction. And then
22:05
Speaker 2: in the spring of 1990, they first record with Butch
22:08
Speaker 2: Big for songs that were going to be on the
22:11
Speaker 2: next sub pop album. And, you know, they're very, they're
22:14
Speaker 2: a lot more poppy than, than Bleach. A lot of
22:17
Speaker 2: those tracks have been officially released now. They were on
22:19
Speaker 2: bootlegs for a long time, but I think now they're
22:22
Speaker 2: on Nevermind reissues. So you can hear them. And yeah,
22:27
Speaker 2: they don't have the, like, what's a lithium, I think
22:30
Speaker 2: is one. Yeah. they don't have the glossy sheen that
22:39
Speaker 2: they got when they did it for Nevermind and they
22:42
Speaker 2: also don't have Dave Grohl's drumming which when I listen
22:46
Speaker 2: to that album again it's almost like he makes the
22:49
Speaker 2: drums a melodic instrument instead of a percussive instrument I
22:55
Speaker 2: know he fronts Foo Fighters and plays guitar but after
22:59
Speaker 2: seeing him with Foo Fighters and seeing him with them
23:01
Speaker 2: Crooked Vultures on that tour, you know, you're reminded, yeah,
23:06
Speaker 2: this guy's really a drummer. I mean, I would almost
23:09
Speaker 2: say he's a better drummer than a, than a guitarist.
23:12
Speaker 2: So he's obviously still a good guitarist, but he just
23:15
Speaker 2: added so much personality to those songs.
23:19
Speaker 1: Until then though, Nirvana was a band that people around
23:22
Speaker 1: town were like, Hey, a good band, but nobody saw
23:23
Speaker 1: them as like, Oh my God, this is going to
23:25
Speaker 1: be the one that's going to, you know, break out
23:27
Speaker 1: and be huge.
23:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Even the record label didn't.
23:31
Speaker 1: No, what was the word around town when they did
23:35
Speaker 1: sign to a big label? Were people saying, oh, they're sellouts?
23:39
Speaker 1: Because that was Kurt Cobain's concern.
23:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that came more from outside the region,
23:46
Speaker 2: not so much Seattle. I don't remember hearing that, really.
23:49
Speaker 2: I mean, by then, Soundgarde was on a major, Alice
23:54
Speaker 2: in Chains was on a major label, Screaming Trees also
23:58
Speaker 2: by then, and Pearl Jam around that time. So it
24:03
Speaker 2: wasn't like they were the only band from that scene
24:05
Speaker 2: that got on a major label. Like I think when
24:07
Speaker 2: Green Day signed, I think that was a bigger thing
24:09
Speaker 2: because I don't think there were any other bands from
24:12
Speaker 2: that scene that really got signed to a major. They
24:15
Speaker 2: don't come to mind anyway. But in this one, you
24:17
Speaker 2: kind of had a history of them doing it. I
24:20
Speaker 2: guess the other thing was that those other bands that
24:22
Speaker 2: had already signed to a major label, they'd released records
24:25
Speaker 2: and they did okay, not great. So I think also,
24:29
Speaker 2: you know, people didn't expect Nevermind would be this huge
24:31
Speaker 2: thing because, you know, Soundgarden's Louder Than Love hadn't done
24:35
Speaker 2: that as well as the majors hoped. So I don't
24:39
Speaker 2: think there was that expectation. And even DGC, it's funny
24:44
Speaker 2: when that was coming out, the execs at DGC had
24:46
Speaker 2: hoped Nevermind might sell, you know, half as much as
24:50
Speaker 2: Sonic Youth's Goo, which sold 200,000. So they thought 100,000
24:55
Speaker 2: was even optimistic.
24:57
Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. That's right. That was the story. that they
25:01
Speaker 1: hoped to maybe a hundred thousand, 200,000. And it just
25:03
Speaker 1: blew up. Yeah. DGC. It's the first time I ever
25:06
Speaker 1: saw that, that label, that name was on the cassette for,
25:11
Speaker 1: for nevermind. Yeah. And then of course I I've heard
25:14
Speaker 1: people from Seattle. They just, it became, it became so
25:19
Speaker 1: over the top with, it was so commercial and it was,
25:22
Speaker 1: it was everywhere now in TV commercials, the flannel and
25:25
Speaker 1: the outfits. I mean, at that point, I can't remember
25:30
Speaker 1: who it was was saying, but like some people were
25:31
Speaker 1: just literally moving out of Seattle because so many people
25:34
Speaker 1: were from outside of Seattle were moving there. It just became, uh, what, what,
25:38
Speaker 1: what do you remember about that?
25:40
Speaker 2: I don't remember people moving out. I remember coming here
25:43
Speaker 2: because they thought they could get signed. And a lot
25:47
Speaker 2: of them were, I mean, by then the major labels and, Oh,
25:50
Speaker 2: we lost out. We got to pick up everyone we can. So, um,
25:54
Speaker 2: a lot of those bands though, you know, they got
25:56
Speaker 2: signed and they got dropped after an album or two when, when,
25:59
Speaker 2: Somehow they didn't produce another Nevermind. But, you know, that
26:03
Speaker 2: doesn't always happen. That's a rarity. But, yeah, it was
26:08
Speaker 2: crazy how it just expanded beyond the music so soon.
26:14
Speaker 2: Like I said, talking about with the flannel and the
26:16
Speaker 2: grunge wear. And like I mentioned the other day, like
26:21
Speaker 2: in Vanity Fair, they had a photo spread of some
26:26
Speaker 2: movers and shakers of the New York scene. And they
26:30
Speaker 2: were in grunge wear. And I just, Liz Smith, the
26:34
Speaker 2: gossip columnist, I don't know if people remember her. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
26:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
26:38
Speaker 2: But she was, I remember she was wearing a pair
26:41
Speaker 2: of Converse high tops. I think they were red. And
26:45
Speaker 2: you look at them and they're brand new. I thought
26:47
Speaker 2: those have come right out of the box. Sure. You
26:50
Speaker 2: knew Liz Smith wasn't wearing those when she went to 21.
26:54
Speaker 1: I worked at a bookstore at the mall here in Connecticut.
26:56
Speaker 1: Across the hall was Abercrombie and Fitch. And it was awesome.
26:59
Speaker 1: All flannel. Everything was back in the mid-90s. It was
27:03
Speaker 1: all flannel. And you'd see Beverly Hills 90210, they're wearing flannel.
27:11
Speaker 1: It was just everywhere. It was everywhere. Alice in Chains,
27:15
Speaker 1: one of my favorite bands from that era. And they
27:19
Speaker 1: had their roots in Seattle's glam and metal scene. But
27:21
Speaker 1: by 1990s facelift, they had a much darker, heavier... identity
27:28
Speaker 1: what changed musically for jerry cantrell and lane staley as
27:31
Speaker 1: the band found the sound that we now associate with
27:33
Speaker 1: alice in.
27:33
Speaker 2: Chains well they were looking around a way else was
27:36
Speaker 2: going on and i've read that they were really impressed
27:38
Speaker 2: with soundguard and their approach to making music so they
27:41
Speaker 2: just took their songs in a in a heavier direction
27:46
Speaker 2: i'll say you know in a darker direction i think
27:48
Speaker 2: they're the darkest of the bands uh of those the
27:51
Speaker 2: big four bands i mean especially i suppose unfortunately because
27:54
Speaker 2: of the subject matter you know a lot of it
27:56
Speaker 2: with abuse and death and I'm terribly up.
27:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. Lane, Lane Staley said, I think every song you
28:01
Speaker 1: wrote was about drug addiction.
28:04
Speaker 2: Well, you know, some of them, yeah, pretty, uh, I
28:06
Speaker 2: think I would say that, you know, what's your drug
28:08
Speaker 2: of choice? Well, what have you got?
28:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:11
Speaker 2: I think of, um, I think of the book, I
28:14
Speaker 2: say like a disaffected Marlon Brando in the wild one,
28:18
Speaker 2: the wild ones.
28:19
Speaker 1: Yes.
28:19
Speaker 2: Classic film, you know, where they ask him, what are
28:21
Speaker 2: you rebelling against Johnny? He goes, what do you got?
28:25
Speaker 1: Boy, that lyric. Yeah. Tragic. And what a voice. And
28:30
Speaker 1: it's sad the way that ended. And so many of
28:32
Speaker 1: those singers are gone now. But you have Eddie Vedder, who's,
28:35
Speaker 1: you know, he's and Pearl Jam still going strong. I
28:38
Speaker 1: was listening to them today and the range, you know,
28:42
Speaker 1: the body of work now that they have and what
28:43
Speaker 1: they've done over the years. They came together remarkably quickly
28:48
Speaker 1: after Eddie Vedder. arrived right from San Diego. They heard
28:53
Speaker 1: the instrumental demo, or he heard the instrumental demo that
28:56
Speaker 1: Stone Gossard, Jeff Amet, and Mike McCready had made. What
28:59
Speaker 1: did he bring to those songs that you think transformed
29:02
Speaker 1: the group of musicians into Pearl Jam?
29:05
Speaker 2: Their rise is pretty incredible. I was reminded when I
29:09
Speaker 2: was writing the book that Eddie comes up to sing
29:13
Speaker 2: with them, and two weeks later, they're doing their first show.
29:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
29:18
Speaker 2: And that's in 1990. And a year later, they released 10. So,
29:23
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, they both had backgrounds in music and
29:26
Speaker 2: bands and so on. But, well, I would say it
29:29
Speaker 2: was his voice. You know, when I was at the
29:32
Speaker 2: Rocket magazine, this is when I first noticed this. We
29:35
Speaker 2: used to have a thing every six months would have
29:37
Speaker 2: a local music issue where every story... was about local
29:40
Speaker 2: music and we had um tape reviews we just invited
29:45
Speaker 2: people to send in their um review their music on
29:49
Speaker 2: tape um because cassette was the coin of the realm
29:53
Speaker 2: then and uh would review well i don't know if
29:56
Speaker 2: we reviewed all of them but they just get short
29:58
Speaker 2: reviews we'd make a long thing of set reviews this
30:01
Speaker 2: band and you'd write a couple sentences and one thing
30:04
Speaker 2: I noticed is that it's easy to be a good
30:06
Speaker 2: instrumentalist but it's a lot harder to be a good
30:08
Speaker 2: singer and so some of these like a song would
30:12
Speaker 2: start and it would sound pretty good but then the
30:13
Speaker 2: singer would come on and it just you know it
30:16
Speaker 2: didn't make it so so there's something there's something more
30:21
Speaker 2: there's something about the human voice um and how well
30:25
Speaker 2: it sounds that uh you know it's harder to get
30:29
Speaker 2: and they must have just recognized it as a unique
30:32
Speaker 2: song or a unique sound, sort of fit what they
30:36
Speaker 2: were doing.
30:37
Speaker 1: Those early shows I've read about, they'd be playing in
30:39
Speaker 1: front of maybe like 10, 20 people, but they were playing,
30:43
Speaker 1: and Eddie in particular, were playing like they were playing
30:45
Speaker 1: to Madison Square Garden. They just put everything into it.
30:49
Speaker 1: Did you see those early shows, Pearl Jam, playing?
30:51
Speaker 2: I miss them. I mean, when you're mentioning that, I
30:53
Speaker 2: think of, I saw one of Mother Love Bound's last
30:57
Speaker 2: shows with Andrew Wood. You know, not as robust a
31:01
Speaker 2: singer as Eddie. Good. But he was just such a
31:05
Speaker 2: playful character. And it was at this club called The Vogue,
31:08
Speaker 2: which was, you know, typical rock club. And I think
31:11
Speaker 2: it was a last minute show. That's how I remember it.
31:14
Speaker 2: I remember someone calling the Rocket and saying, hi, and
31:17
Speaker 2: you want to see Mother Lockbone tonight? We'll put you
31:19
Speaker 2: on the list, which usually means they didn't sell enough
31:22
Speaker 2: advance tickets. So there weren't that many people. But yeah.
31:26
Speaker 2: the way Andy stomped around. He even said, hello, Seattle,
31:31
Speaker 2: like he was playing Madison Square Garden. So that was
31:35
Speaker 2: definitely a thing that Seattle bands did, would throw themselves
31:41
Speaker 2: into it, no matter how many people were in the audience.
31:45
Speaker 2: I think maybe in those first Pearl Jam shows, in particular,
31:49
Speaker 2: I think for the guys from Mother Love Bone, it
31:53
Speaker 2: must have felt like, you know, a renewal. Like, okay,
31:56
Speaker 2: here we've got the second chance because they had the
31:58
Speaker 2: devastation of Andy's death, but now they have this new singer.
32:02
Speaker 2: And I think that also fueled the determination in them. Like, yeah,
32:06
Speaker 2: we're going to put this over the top.
32:08
Speaker 1: Jillian Garr, the author of Grunge, the story of the
32:10
Speaker 1: music that redefined rock. When Nirvana began making Nevermind, talked
32:15
Speaker 1: about Butch Vig, they were moving from that raw sound
32:19
Speaker 1: of Bleach towards something much more polished. What did he
32:22
Speaker 1: hear in Kurt Cobain's songs? And what did he do
32:25
Speaker 1: in the studio that made that difference, that made them
32:29
Speaker 1: sound so powerful? Again, without losing the band's edge.
32:32
Speaker 2: Well, again, you have a very distinctive voice. I would
32:39
Speaker 2: say maybe Kurt had more personality in his voice than technique.
32:45
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're just talking about technique, you might
32:46
Speaker 2: say Eddie Vedder is a better singer. but Kurt has
32:50
Speaker 2: that indefinable something that you don't know what it is.
32:54
Speaker 2: You can't name it or put your finger on it,
32:56
Speaker 2: but there's something about that, that, that grabs your attention.
33:00
Speaker 2: And what I think is, is fascinating is, uh, how
33:04
Speaker 2: much big heard their demo. Well, it wasn't even demo
33:08
Speaker 2: their rehearsal of teen spirit. And they're just trying to
33:11
Speaker 2: give them an idea of what the song sounds like. And, uh,
33:15
Speaker 2: I've heard that demo and it's very rough and raw. Um,
33:19
Speaker 2: But he was excited by it. There was something in
33:21
Speaker 2: there that he thought, wow, this is great. And I
33:23
Speaker 2: think as he told me, he just couldn't keep himself
33:26
Speaker 2: from pacing around while listening to it. And then when
33:29
Speaker 2: they came down to L.A. and they had a couple
33:31
Speaker 2: days rehearsal before going into the studio, yeah, there was
33:34
Speaker 2: just something that grabbed him about that song. And he
33:38
Speaker 2: suggested some arrangements that they could do, different arranging of
33:42
Speaker 2: the song and what to put in the chorus, just
33:46
Speaker 2: sort of moving those things around. He also got Kurt
33:51
Speaker 2: to do vocal overdubs, which Kurt didn't like to do.
33:57
Speaker 2: But he wanted to keep that edge, as you say.
34:00
Speaker 2: He would explain to Kurt, well, you guys sound so
34:04
Speaker 2: big and powerful live. I want to capture that on record.
34:09
Speaker 2: And he felt the best way to do that was
34:11
Speaker 2: to have these overdubs. But the key to that, and
34:14
Speaker 2: here we can thank the Beatles for that, is that
34:17
Speaker 2: he knew Kurt was a big Beatles fan. And so
34:19
Speaker 2: he said, well, you know, John Lennon overdubbed his vocals.
34:22
Speaker 2: John Lennon didn't really like overdubbing either. So they had
34:26
Speaker 2: that in common. But when Kurt heard that, he was like, okay,
34:31
Speaker 2: I agree. Okay, he agreed to it then. So I
34:34
Speaker 2: think that also does make them sound big and powerful.
34:39
Speaker 2: It's a very thick record when you think about it,
34:42
Speaker 2: all that back. And then, of course, you had Dave Grohl,
34:45
Speaker 2: who could do harmonies. And none of their other drummers
34:48
Speaker 2: had been a singer before. So that added to it.
34:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what makes a great producer, too, is things
34:55
Speaker 1: like that, I suppose, too. It's just to be able
34:58
Speaker 1: to talk Kurt into doing that, saying, hey, John Lennon
35:02
Speaker 1: did that. Because I've heard that story before, and I
35:04
Speaker 1: love that. I mean, those are the types of things,
35:06
Speaker 1: I guess, that a producer has to think about to
35:09
Speaker 1: get the most out of the band and understand each
35:14
Speaker 1: person that he's working with and try to get them
35:18
Speaker 1: to do things they don't normally do. When you first
35:20
Speaker 1: heard Smells Like Teen Spirit, like the final version on
35:23
Speaker 1: the radio, the produced version, did you say, oh, wow,
35:26
Speaker 1: this is going to be something special? I remember hearing
35:31
Speaker 1: it for the first time on local rock radio. It
35:37
Speaker 1: took me a few listens.
35:38
Speaker 2: No, I thought when I heard it, it was the
35:40
Speaker 2: kind of song that after you heard it, you wanted
35:42
Speaker 2: to hear it again. Right away. Yeah. That whole period
35:46
Speaker 2: reminded me of being in college and living on campus
35:49
Speaker 2: and walking across the campus. And as you'd walk by
35:52
Speaker 2: the dorms, you'd hear whatever the popular song of the
35:55
Speaker 2: era was. And so the neighborhood I lived in, it
36:00
Speaker 2: was not college campus related, but it was a similar thing.
36:04
Speaker 2: You just heard it everywhere. It was one of those
36:07
Speaker 2: records where you pretty much didn't have to buy the
36:09
Speaker 2: record because you heard it all the time anyway. I
36:12
Speaker 2: remember being in bars and they'd be playing the album
36:15
Speaker 2: on tape. And then when the tape was over, they'd
36:18
Speaker 2: just turn it over and play it again.
36:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you talk about his vocals. The thing at
36:24
Speaker 1: the time was, what the hell is he saying? They
36:26
Speaker 1: couldn't understand the lyrics, but you're just feeling he's communicating
36:30
Speaker 1: with you through the emotion in his vocals. The angst
36:33
Speaker 1: and the energy and just the raw power in his
36:38
Speaker 1: vocals and the band as a whole.
36:40
Speaker 2: Like at the end of Teen Spirit when he's saying
36:42
Speaker 2: a denial, and you can probably figure out what that is,
36:44
Speaker 2: he's saying a denial. And you don't know what it
36:47
Speaker 2: is he's talking about, but it's just so powerful. You
36:50
Speaker 2: just are drawn in and you relate to it yourself. Yeah.
36:53
Speaker 2: Because the emotion is there.
36:57
Speaker 1: I've told this story before when Nirvana came to New Haven,
37:02
Speaker 1: Connecticut in 1991. Here it is. It's September 26, 1991.
37:06
Speaker 1: It was this place called The Moon, which is now
37:09
Speaker 1: I think a bank. And I think it fit like
37:11
Speaker 1: 200 people. And if I had only known, this is
37:14
Speaker 1: pre-internet era, so I had no clue. And they weren't
37:17
Speaker 1: huge yet. The song was about to blow up. And
37:21
Speaker 1: they were playing right there. And it's on YouTube. It
37:24
Speaker 1: blows your mind because they were literally a month or
37:27
Speaker 1: two away from being on MTV and the cover of
37:30
Speaker 1: magazines and all that. And there they were in this
37:32
Speaker 1: little club, 100, 200 people. I mean, and I could
37:35
Speaker 1: have literally walked from my campus to go see there.
37:38
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh my God, I look back on that,
37:40
Speaker 1: you know, but, but that's just an example of how
37:43
Speaker 1: quickly they blew up. I mean, they went from, you know, just,
37:48
Speaker 1: you know, just plugging away, playing the little clubs. And
37:51
Speaker 1: like you say, let's hopefully we can get a couple
37:53
Speaker 1: hundred thousand copies sold and we'll call it a day
37:55
Speaker 1: and move on to the next album.
37:57
Speaker 2: It's funny to think about now, but teen spirit wasn't
37:59
Speaker 2: supposed to be the breakthrough single. That was, going to
38:03
Speaker 2: pave the way for the other singles, which would be
38:05
Speaker 2: more successful.
38:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just to set up the rest. Yeah, exactly.
38:11
Speaker 2: No one anticipated that. And then people at the label
38:15
Speaker 2: would get reports that all kinds of stations with different
38:19
Speaker 2: formats were playing that. Not just rock stations, but other stations.
38:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, then they went into in utero and they wanted
38:28
Speaker 1: something much less polished. Then never mind chose Steve Albany
38:33
Speaker 1: to record it, and you write about that in the
38:36
Speaker 1: book as well. When some of his mixes were considered
38:39
Speaker 1: not commercially accessible enough, there was somebody brought in to
38:43
Speaker 1: remix Heart Shaped Box in All Apologies, Scott Litt. Did
38:47
Speaker 1: that create a genuine conflict for Kurt Cobain? Because he
38:52
Speaker 1: didn't want to be commercial again. He wanted to make
38:54
Speaker 1: an album that was going to distance those Fairweather fans.
38:59
Speaker 2: You know, Kurt said a lot of contradictory things in
39:01
Speaker 2: his life, so I'm not entirely sure how they all
39:06
Speaker 2: really felt. I mean, at the time when that album
39:09
Speaker 2: was first completed, they all liked it. But then, you know,
39:12
Speaker 2: doubts set in. And was it genuine concern over how
39:15
Speaker 2: it sounded? Was it, as Albini speculated, that they were
39:19
Speaker 2: being leaned on? I mean, maybe kind of both. I
39:23
Speaker 2: guess also it would depend on what kind of sound
39:25
Speaker 2: system you're listening to things on. I mean, Well, I
39:30
Speaker 2: heard Albini's mixes, and they're out there too, I think
39:32
Speaker 2: they're even on one of the reissues. I would say, yeah,
39:37
Speaker 2: they do sound raw, or I didn't think they sounded
39:39
Speaker 2: that much different, but maybe to a label executive, they
39:42
Speaker 2: didn't quite have the same sheen. I mean, certainly they
39:45
Speaker 2: don't have the same glossiness as Nevermind. That's true. But yeah,
39:52
Speaker 2: he did give in and went along with it. And actually,
39:55
Speaker 2: Chris is right. In the first version, there's an effect
39:58
Speaker 2: on Kurt's guitar and heart-shaped box. And yeah, it doesn't work.
40:02
Speaker 2: And Chris didn't like that from the beginning. So he
40:06
Speaker 2: was glad that was taken out. And I do think
40:08
Speaker 2: it makes the song better. I mean, it's still an
40:11
Speaker 2: uncompromising album, I think.
40:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And what was your thought
40:17
Speaker 1: when that album came out?
40:19
Speaker 2: But then it's interesting thinking back to times when it
40:22
Speaker 2: just seemed this was so important. And I don't know
40:25
Speaker 2: if I could get that excited about a record release now. But, well,
40:30
Speaker 2: for example, earlier that, I think it was in July,
40:33
Speaker 2: I went to see a whole show at a local
40:37
Speaker 2: club in town. And it was the same night Leonard
40:40
Speaker 2: Cohen was performing. And I think the Nirvana guys were
40:42
Speaker 2: there seeing Leonard Cohen at the Paramount. I was at
40:45
Speaker 2: East Lake East seeing Hole. And by then I'd interviewed Courtney. So,
40:48
Speaker 2: you know, we chatted a bit after the show. And
40:51
Speaker 2: then later I read that there was a reporter there
40:57
Speaker 2: who said he was from New Musical Express and he
40:59
Speaker 2: talked to Courtney and Courtney took him back to her
41:04
Speaker 2: home where she, you know, she's living with Kurt. They're
41:05
Speaker 2: living by like Washington and plays him an advance of
41:09
Speaker 2: in utero. And I was so envious of that. I thought,
41:12
Speaker 2: Oh God, that could have been me. I could have
41:14
Speaker 2: got that interview. Yeah, this album had had the controversy
41:18
Speaker 2: about the mixes and what it's going to be like.
41:22
Speaker 2: And someone at the Rocket who had connections had somehow
41:27
Speaker 2: got an early mix and had brought it to the
41:31
Speaker 2: office on cassette. And we were allowed to each borrow
41:34
Speaker 2: it and take it home and copy it.
41:35
Speaker 1: Of course. Wow.
41:38
Speaker 2: And so I know when I brought it home, I
41:42
Speaker 2: think I unplugged the phone. I turned the ringer off
41:44
Speaker 2: because I did not want to be disturbed. I just
41:46
Speaker 2: wanted to listen to this. And, um, yeah, some of
41:50
Speaker 2: it was pretty, you know, raw and abrasive, like scentless apprentice. Uh,
41:54
Speaker 2: you have, um, serve the servants first, then it goes
41:57
Speaker 2: into scentless apprentice, which is, there's some songs that are
42:00
Speaker 2: like that. No, that's just screaming within you had other,
42:04
Speaker 2: you know, the lighter songs of heart shaped box and
42:08
Speaker 2: dumb and, uh, All Apologies, which, though they all have
42:12
Speaker 2: a darkness to them. They all have, especially the lyrics
42:15
Speaker 2: of Heart Shaped Box. I mean, I know some have said, oh, well,
42:18
Speaker 2: it's this kind of love song, but it's very dark.
42:22
Speaker 2: You listen to those lyrics. I think it's about, you know,
42:24
Speaker 2: kind of a suffocating relationship myself. It was exciting, though,
42:29
Speaker 2: to be able to hear that before it got out there,
42:31
Speaker 2: before they even had copies for the media.
42:32
Speaker 1: Oh, I could imagine. Did you get a chance to
42:35
Speaker 1: interview Kurt?
42:36
Speaker 2: No. I was at the... live and loud concert that
42:41
Speaker 2: was taped for MTV that aired on New Year's Eve.
42:45
Speaker 2: He taped it on December 13th. And I was backstage
42:51
Speaker 2: and I ran into him with Courtney and he just
42:53
Speaker 2: did not look at all well. I remember thinking, oh dear,
42:58
Speaker 2: how is the show going to go? But he clearly
43:01
Speaker 2: pulled himself together because it's a good performance. And he
43:04
Speaker 2: did interviews with MTV that day that they recirculated a lot,
43:08
Speaker 2: especially after his death. It's where he's wearing the kind
43:11
Speaker 2: of tinfoil lei, the colorful leis. And he seems tired,
43:15
Speaker 2: but he's, you know, otherwise calm and able to have
43:19
Speaker 2: the conversation. He doesn't fall asleep or anything, so he's
43:23
Speaker 2: fine there. I did speak briefly to Chris that time
43:30
Speaker 2: backstage also. I don't know. They were in a strange...
43:38
Speaker 2: I don't know if despite the interviews, that's really come through.
43:41
Speaker 2: I think you have to pick up on comments they
43:45
Speaker 2: made at the time or comments they made later. When
43:51
Speaker 2: I looked at Charlie Cross's biography of Kurt, for example,
43:56
Speaker 2: and he talks about how Kurt got married in 92
44:00
Speaker 2: at the end of a tour. And because of some
44:02
Speaker 2: in-band fighting, Chris wasn't there with his wife for various reasons.
44:06
Speaker 2: But then Chris said something that it just made me
44:11
Speaker 2: so sad. In the book, I said, you know, I
44:13
Speaker 2: think maybe this is the saddest quote from any Nirvana biography.
44:18
Speaker 2: He just says, you know, there really was no direction
44:21
Speaker 2: of the band after that. He says he was estranged
44:25
Speaker 2: from Kurt, and there really was no direction of the
44:26
Speaker 2: band after. So, I mean, despite the positive face they
44:31
Speaker 2: put on things, I think there was also this kind
44:33
Speaker 2: of deep sadness underneath. I mean, I just thought that
44:36
Speaker 2: was a really revealing comment.
44:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know somebody I work with, 23 years old,
44:40
Speaker 1: loves Nirvana. There's a generation of kids that love Nirvana.
44:46
Speaker 1: He connects with this generation as it did for us.
44:52
Speaker 1: And I just remember it so well, that day that
44:55
Speaker 1: he died. So for you, was that shock? Were you thinking,
44:58
Speaker 1: I saw this coming? What ran through your mind that
45:02
Speaker 1: day you heard?
45:03
Speaker 2: Well, see, there was some more context for us because, um,
45:08
Speaker 2: in March, you might remember he had his OD in Rome.
45:11
Speaker 2: So I was going to work at the rocket and
45:13
Speaker 2: it was a deadline day. And, um, I just, I
45:16
Speaker 2: saw the headline, you know, Nirvana star in coma in Rome.
45:20
Speaker 2: And so I go to the office and we're all
45:23
Speaker 2: kind of walking around on eggshells. But then as time
45:28
Speaker 2: passed and there's no update, we just thought, okay, well,
45:30
Speaker 2: he's probably pulled through. And, uh, our managing editor was
45:35
Speaker 2: leaving that day. It was his last day. And he said, gee, oh,
45:39
Speaker 2: I'm glad I didn't want my last day here to
45:41
Speaker 2: be the day that Kurt Cobain died. So it was
45:44
Speaker 2: kind of, in retrospect, it almost seemed like a dry
45:46
Speaker 2: round that it happened in March. And then in April,
45:51
Speaker 2: our ad manager was leaving. April 8th was going to
45:53
Speaker 2: be her last day. And, um, So how could we hear?
45:59
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
45:59
Speaker 2: It was, was the announcement on the radio.
46:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
46:02
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it was sort of like, it was almost
46:04
Speaker 2: like a replay, but this, this sounded more serious. Um,
46:09
Speaker 2: because yeah, there was an actual, it just said a
46:12
Speaker 2: body of an, of a white male in his twenties
46:15
Speaker 2: is found at the Cobain residence. That was the first thing.
46:18
Speaker 2: And it was just on rock radio. And I was
46:21
Speaker 2: at the office and, um, my mother called me. And
46:25
Speaker 2: she said, oh, they're saying on the radio about a
46:27
Speaker 2: body being found. I was like, oh, yeah, we've been
46:30
Speaker 2: hearing that. I don't think there's anything in it. But
46:33
Speaker 2: that made me think, oh, because my mother wasn't listening
46:37
Speaker 2: to rock radio. There was a talk radio station she
46:40
Speaker 2: liked listening to. So I thought, okay, if other stations
46:44
Speaker 2: are picking this up, that means it's serious. That means
46:49
Speaker 2: it's probably not just another rumor. And this is deadline day.
46:52
Speaker 2: We're going to press. And our ad manager's leaving. You know,
46:57
Speaker 2: the office is unsettled. I was supposed to be doing
47:00
Speaker 2: an interview with Courtney. I was supposed to interview her
47:02
Speaker 2: on April 5th because Holes Live Through This was coming out.
47:05
Speaker 1: Yes. Wow.
47:06
Speaker 2: And I couldn't get her on the phone. I had
47:08
Speaker 2: to talk to Eric Erlinson instead. And he said, well,
47:10
Speaker 2: we'll try and get her to call you.
47:12
Speaker 1: Was that her manager or who was that?
47:14
Speaker 2: Eric. Eric's the guitarist in Holes.
47:16
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, that's right. Okay.
47:18
Speaker 2: Oh, Finn won.
47:19
Speaker 1: Yes.
47:21
Speaker 2: Oh, also a guy.
47:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:22
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow.
47:24
Speaker 1: So, wow.
47:25
Speaker 2: So there was all this going on and the story
47:28
Speaker 2: had to get pulled and they had to put something
47:30
Speaker 2: else in there. And then, um, I had first heard that,
47:34
Speaker 2: I think Charlie got word from like a contact on
47:37
Speaker 2: the scene that, yeah, it was Kurt. And maybe that
47:39
Speaker 2: was Nicholas because in a sort of further bizarre twist,
47:43
Speaker 2: our ad manager had, um, gone out with a fellow
47:47
Speaker 2: named Nicholas Hartshorn, who wasn't a medical student. This is
47:50
Speaker 2: when she'd first started at the rocket. And, um, they
47:55
Speaker 2: broke up, but they remained friends and he was a
47:57
Speaker 2: rock fan and you'd see him at shows and stuff. Well,
47:59
Speaker 2: he ended up being, uh, working for the medical examiner's
48:02
Speaker 2: office and he was the fellow that did Kurt's autopsy.
48:06
Speaker 2: So it's just, it was all very, very bizarre. Um, yeah, I,
48:16
Speaker 2: I have a quote or two from, from him in
48:18
Speaker 2: there just saying how, um, He got the call to
48:21
Speaker 2: go up to the house, and he just thought, oh,
48:23
Speaker 2: this is not going to be a good day. Yeah.
48:26
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, as a reporter, so from that day, I
48:31
Speaker 1: guess what, over the next week or two, I mean,
48:34
Speaker 1: you're covering nothing but that story?
48:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Well, they had a public memorial that Sunday,
48:44
Speaker 2: which I learned later they had it in part because
48:47
Speaker 2: they were having– a service for him at a church,
48:51
Speaker 2: which actually was kind of at the same neighborhood. You'd
48:52
Speaker 2: think they'd have moved it further away, but they had
48:55
Speaker 2: a public memorials that people would go to that and
48:57
Speaker 2: not just, you know, hang out outside the service. Um, yeah,
49:02
Speaker 2: I remember seeing, uh, like the photos, they took photos of,
49:07
Speaker 2: of Kristen and Dave arriving, uh, with their wives at
49:11
Speaker 2: the service. And, yeah, the looks on their faces, especially Chris's,
49:15
Speaker 2: you know, just, just devastated. And then being at the
49:21
Speaker 2: public memorial, they got tape recorded statements from both Chris
49:27
Speaker 2: and Courtney and people probably heard Courtney's anyway, but then
49:31
Speaker 2: she was out there a lot. And well, yeah, she sounds,
49:34
Speaker 2: you know, pretty emotionally destroyed when she's, when she's reading, she,
49:39
Speaker 2: she read most of Kurt's suicide note in that statement.
49:43
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, for the coming weeks, you just saw
49:46
Speaker 2: that as new information came out. Um, and then Kristen
49:50
Speaker 2: from whole died just two months later. And it was
49:53
Speaker 2: just thinking, when is this going to stop?
49:55
Speaker 1: And Dave Grohl, we know moved on Foo Fighters, but Chris,
49:59
Speaker 1: did he, did he form a band shortly after that?
50:02
Speaker 1: But eventually I know you got into politics.
50:04
Speaker 2: Let's see. That was 94. I guess it was in 95.
50:06
Speaker 2: I mean, I know he and Dave considered doing something together,
50:11
Speaker 2: but they just thought people would just, it was just
50:14
Speaker 2: too close to redoing Nevermind. So they didn't want to
50:16
Speaker 2: work together, although they have subsequent projects and stuff. But yeah,
50:21
Speaker 2: he was first in a band called Sweet 75 that
50:25
Speaker 2: with a local singer and gosh, they had various, well,
50:31
Speaker 2: they went through a couple of different drummers. At one
50:33
Speaker 2: point they played with Bill Rieflin, who was in the
50:36
Speaker 2: Blackouts from Seattle band from, way back when. And how
50:42
Speaker 2: would you describe it? It had some Latin influences, some
50:44
Speaker 2: rock influences. I thought it was interesting, but it didn't
50:48
Speaker 2: do that well. You know, they only put out one
50:51
Speaker 2: album and that was that. And then he was in
50:54
Speaker 2: the band Eyes Adrift with Kirkwood from the Meat Puppets
50:59
Speaker 2: and another guy. And that was, you know, I'm not
51:02
Speaker 2: sure how to describe that. Indie stuff, but sort of,
51:06
Speaker 2: there was kind of a trippy edge to it. there
51:08
Speaker 2: were these songs that kind of went on for a
51:10
Speaker 2: long time, uh, meandering, but also saw, um, Chris's debut
51:14
Speaker 2: as a singer. I think, uh, Dottie Donna, Julie jewel,
51:18
Speaker 2: maybe that was on sweet 75. He did a song
51:20
Speaker 2: about his dogs. That was fun. Uh, but yeah, he
51:23
Speaker 2: was in bands that didn't stick around that long. He
51:27
Speaker 2: was in flipper for a while. The band flipper, he
51:30
Speaker 2: toured with them.
51:32
Speaker 1: So he was working for, for a little while there.
51:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, But then, yeah, he got, he'd always been,
51:38
Speaker 2: you know, kind of more politically minded. And after Nirvana
51:43
Speaker 2: got big, I think it was the year this would
51:44
Speaker 2: have been made with 93, he did a big story
51:46
Speaker 2: in Spin about the conflict in the former Yugoslavia. Because
51:52
Speaker 2: those are his family groups. And Croatia and that whole region,
51:57
Speaker 2: you know, it was all in turmoil at that time.
52:02
Speaker 2: I suspect he was the one that got them to
52:05
Speaker 2: do various benefits. which they did over the years. He
52:08
Speaker 2: was certainly the one that would make a little speech
52:10
Speaker 2: when he was there. So it just kind of naturally translated.
52:13
Speaker 2: He was, he was in a kind of lobbying group
52:16
Speaker 2: for the music industry here in Seattle. Um, I know
52:20
Speaker 2: there are talks about it. I think, didn't he run
52:23
Speaker 2: for Lieutenant governor? No, I can't remember if.
52:24
Speaker 1: He did or not. Yeah. You know, he was in
52:26
Speaker 1: politics and he ran for something at one point. Yeah.
52:31
Speaker 2: Recently he's been working with another group, the Cascadia party, uh,
52:36
Speaker 2: He wants to get away from the polarization, sort of
52:39
Speaker 2: kind of fit in the middle type of thing. I
52:42
Speaker 2: think this would have been 2024. I think he kind of,
52:46
Speaker 2: you know, he did run for office because you have
52:48
Speaker 2: to run for office to establish yourself as a party.
52:51
Speaker 2: He knew he wasn't going to make it. I think
52:52
Speaker 2: it might have been president or something. I hope this
52:54
Speaker 2: is accurate. That was just to establish it and make
53:00
Speaker 2: it a bona fide recognized party. And that's a little fringe.
53:03
Speaker 2: And this fall, if you follow him, on social media.
53:08
Speaker 2: He's been making the rounds, appearing at different gatherings for
53:12
Speaker 2: candidates that are running, you know, in support of different candidates,
53:16
Speaker 2: kind of promoting the Cascadia party. These aren't candidates. These
53:20
Speaker 2: are around the state. So it's not even necessarily people
53:22
Speaker 2: he could vote for. He's just involved in the process.
53:27
Speaker 1: Financially, does he get publishing for Nirvana? I would assume so.
53:31
Speaker 2: I mean, he does.
53:33
Speaker 1: I forget who's listed on those songs. Is it all
53:35
Speaker 1: three of them or is it just Kurt?
53:37
Speaker 2: I think it varies. Actually, according to come as you are,
53:42
Speaker 2: that was a big dispute. The book come as you are,
53:45
Speaker 2: you mean it's been another, that a once nevermind got big.
53:48
Speaker 2: Kurt wanted the publishing arrangement changed and they wanted it retroactively.
53:52
Speaker 2: And that created a lot of bad feeling, but they,
53:55
Speaker 2: they sorted that out. I mean, I think my understanding
53:58
Speaker 2: is I think you get performance royalties just or the
54:02
Speaker 2: record sales. But then, yeah, obviously publishing, you get more
54:06
Speaker 2: with that.
54:06
Speaker 1: Sure.
54:07
Speaker 2: And if other people cover that song, then you get
54:10
Speaker 2: a cut of that. So there's that.
54:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Foo Fighters, were you pleasantly surprised by that? You know,
54:17
Speaker 1: that first album when it blew up?
54:19
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I like their early stuff better more
54:22
Speaker 2: than later stuff. Sorry, Dave.
54:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was starting to write songs for uh before
54:29
Speaker 1: kurt because i think kurt was saying it took a
54:30
Speaker 1: little bit of the pressure off him and there's one
54:33
Speaker 1: song that is on the expanded edition of in.
54:37
Speaker 2: Utero right that that yeah marigold.
54:40
Speaker 1: Yes that he wrote yeah so we had an indication
54:45
Speaker 1: that he could write songs but nobody knew that that
54:49
Speaker 1: he could write that well and he played all the
54:52
Speaker 1: instruments on that album and yeah it's You know, and
54:56
Speaker 1: now it's like Foo Fighters are that type of band now.
54:59
Speaker 1: It's like a legacy act where you got, you know, people,
55:02
Speaker 1: you know, you got first generation fans and their kids
55:05
Speaker 1: are going. And I mean, you know, they've been around
55:08
Speaker 1: for 30 years.
55:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, 30 plus years now. So cool.
55:15
Speaker 1: I just heard Soundgarden. I don't know if this is
55:17
Speaker 1: a permanent thing, but they performed with a female singer.
55:23
Speaker 2: Yeah.
55:24
Speaker 1: Adam.
55:25
Speaker 2: At the football game.
55:26
Speaker 1: At the football game.
55:27
Speaker 2: I can't remember if, I don't know if that's online.
55:30
Speaker 2: I hope it's online somewhere. I guess this is a
55:32
Speaker 2: big kerfuffle because I actually went out that night. I
55:35
Speaker 2: was planning to stay home and watch the game. But
55:37
Speaker 2: apparently they didn't show that on TV and everyone was
55:40
Speaker 2: mad about it.
55:41
Speaker 1: Oh, I heard, yeah.
55:43
Speaker 2: Well, you would be. I mean, Seahawks game and so
55:45
Speaker 2: big deal and it was them. But yeah, to answer
55:49
Speaker 2: your question, I think they are planning to do performing
55:53
Speaker 2: things like that. I don't know if they'll use her
55:54
Speaker 2: or if they just, We'll bring in different people.
55:57
Speaker 1: Taylor Momsen from Pretty Reckless. Right. Taylor Momsen. Pretty Reckless.
56:03
Speaker 2: Austin Chains did that before they sold on.
56:06
Speaker 1: Well, yeah. Now they have that singer that's been with them.
56:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
56:11
Speaker 1: William.
56:13
Speaker 2: DeVoe, I think.
56:14
Speaker 1: DeVoe. Yeah. Yes.
56:15
Speaker 2: Yes.
56:16
Speaker 1: And they've done well. But Soundgarden, that was after Kurt's death.
56:20
Speaker 1: Soundgarden took the mantle at that point with Super Unknown
56:23
Speaker 1: in 94.
56:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
56:25
Speaker 1: I mean, that album was huge. I mean, what change
56:27
Speaker 1: in their songwriting do you think, in the production, or
56:30
Speaker 1: what was the difference maker on that? I mean, obviously
56:33
Speaker 1: the other albums did well, but that album, really.
56:35
Speaker 2: Well, that's the indepth thing, where if people knew that,
56:38
Speaker 2: then they would just put out albums like that all
56:40
Speaker 2: the time. But it just connected in a way others hadn't.
56:42
Speaker 2: I would say the songs by then, and the production,
56:47
Speaker 2: the sound. I mean, certainly it's a stronger album than
56:52
Speaker 2: Louder Than Love, the major label debut.
56:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, Black Hole Sun. I mean, that was the huge
57:00
Speaker 1: single from that. By 96, that scene, the Seattle scene
57:05
Speaker 1: hadn't really died. The spotlight had simply just kind of
57:07
Speaker 1: moved elsewhere. What actually came to an end? I mean,
57:11
Speaker 1: the grunge as a musical movement? Was Seattle's moment as
57:15
Speaker 1: the center of rock culture? Did it just run its course?
57:19
Speaker 1: Or did the media just no longer, not the Seattle media,
57:24
Speaker 1: but the media as a whole, where they just no
57:26
Speaker 1: longer fascinated with it?
57:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think it ran its course and
57:30
Speaker 2: it was also evolving into other things that weren't as
57:34
Speaker 2: grunge sounding. I mean, um, we had Foo Fighters coming
57:39
Speaker 2: along and then you had the presidents of the United
57:41
Speaker 2: States of America and then you had Slater Kinney coming
57:44
Speaker 2: along and, um, those were all very, you know, they
57:47
Speaker 2: weren't grunge bands. They came from that scene and indeed,
57:50
Speaker 2: they've been in a grunge band. But, um, You know,
57:54
Speaker 2: they were different. And so there wasn't that kind of
57:57
Speaker 2: unifying thing. I mean, Mudhoney was still around. But, yeah,
58:04
Speaker 2: for a while, it was only Pearl Jam that was there.
58:09
Speaker 2: You know, Nirvana was gone. Soundgarden broke up. And Alice
58:14
Speaker 2: in Chains just, they never said they were breaking up.
58:18
Speaker 2: They just didn't record again.
58:20
Speaker 1: Right.
58:22
Speaker 2: As Lane retreated into, you know, his own little world. Um,
58:26
Speaker 2: so yeah, Pearltown was the only band out there carrying
58:28
Speaker 2: the standard.
58:31
Speaker 1: You look back on it now, three decades later, what
58:35
Speaker 1: part of its legacy matters the most to you?
58:37
Speaker 2: Well, there's the personal side. Cause it was just, uh,
58:41
Speaker 2: I remember the fun of that time and that's something
58:43
Speaker 2: you can't do again. Um, cause you're not, you know,
58:47
Speaker 2: in your twenties and thirties. Um, that kind of freedom.
58:52
Speaker 2: It just also how different a music scene was then
58:58
Speaker 2: because he didn't have the internet or cell phones or
59:02
Speaker 2: any of this stuff. Like these bands all had a
59:05
Speaker 2: chance to grow and develop. And now some bands, they just,
59:09
Speaker 2: you know, they want to get, go straight out of
59:12
Speaker 2: the box into, into the charts or something, you know,
59:15
Speaker 2: really worry about the branding and everyone will have a
59:17
Speaker 2: cell phone at their shows holding kind of thing. Something
59:22
Speaker 2: more artificial about that. But the music, then I, you know,
59:27
Speaker 2: I won't listen to those, records for a while, then
59:29
Speaker 2: I'll put them on and it'll remind me just how
59:32
Speaker 2: good that stuff was.
59:33
Speaker 1: Same here.
59:35
Speaker 2: And I guess that's why, you know, you mentioned that,
59:37
Speaker 2: that 23 year old that was into Nirvana and well,
59:41
Speaker 2: there you go. I mean, he's obviously responding to the
59:44
Speaker 2: passion of, of that music.
59:47
Speaker 1: Magical time. I was 19, 20, 21, all while that
59:50
Speaker 1: was happening. And just to see the shift in the
59:53
Speaker 1: world around me here in, this is in Connecticut, you know,
59:57
Speaker 1: you're right there at the heart, of it all. But,
59:59
Speaker 1: you know, when it started to spread to all the
1:00:02
Speaker 1: different areas of the country, I mean, it was something
1:00:05
Speaker 1: really special, which I didn't realize it as much as
1:00:08
Speaker 1: it was happening. But then as you get into the
1:00:10
Speaker 1: late nineties, two thousands, I started to think about, I
1:00:13
Speaker 1: was like, man, I'm we're, we're fortunate to, to be
1:00:16
Speaker 1: that age at that time. It's like, it's just so exciting.
1:00:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:00:19
Speaker 1: It was just, it, you'd go, you'd go to the
1:00:22
Speaker 1: bar with your buddies and, you know, it was just,
1:00:24
Speaker 1: you could see it the way people, the way people
1:00:26
Speaker 1: dress and the music and the music that was on
1:00:28
Speaker 1: the jukebox, the cover bands were now playing all these
1:00:31
Speaker 1: songs by these bands, Pearl Jam, Nirvana. It was just,
1:00:34
Speaker 1: it was a great time. I, like I said, I'm
1:00:37
Speaker 1: just glad that I was part of it. Now this
1:00:40
Speaker 1: book comes out October the 13th. Yeah.
1:00:43
Speaker 2: Next week.
1:00:43
Speaker 1: Yes. Scrunch the story of the music that redefined rock.
1:00:47
Speaker 1: So this episode will be a little bit before that.
1:00:49
Speaker 1: So people can go and pre-order I'm assuming, right? Go
1:00:52
Speaker 1: to Amazon and all that.
1:00:53
Speaker 2: Be stoop.
1:00:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people can find you online. I know I
1:00:57
Speaker 1: follow you on X, right?
1:00:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on there. On Facebook, it's JillianGarWriter, just one word,
1:01:08
Speaker 2: and that's a page you can follow. You don't need
1:01:10
Speaker 2: a request approved or something. And yeah, I'm now on
1:01:14
Speaker 2: Instagram too, just under my name, or I think the
1:01:17
Speaker 2: username is JillianTheGar. But yeah, so those two, That one,
1:01:25
Speaker 2: Instagram and Jillian Gar-Ryder, that's where I focus on the
1:01:29
Speaker 2: professional side. That's where I'll post upcoming events. Actually, now
1:01:34
Speaker 2: on Instagram, I'm just going through all the book covers,
1:01:36
Speaker 2: all my book covers, and then getting through the anthologies.
1:01:39
Speaker 2: I think I might move to the albums where I've
1:01:42
Speaker 2: written liner notes after that.
1:01:44
Speaker 1: Oh, cool, cool. And I'm going to let you go
1:01:46
Speaker 1: because you're going to the movie theater to see Queen, right?
1:01:50
Speaker 2: At Budapest.
1:01:52
Speaker 1: Queen at Budapest.
1:01:52
Speaker 2: The concert film. Yeah. Why settle for your TV screen?
1:01:57
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, yeah. Have a good time there, Jillian. Thanks
1:02:02
Speaker 1: as always for coming on and look forward to talking
1:02:04
Speaker 1: to you again.
1:02:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. Great. Thanks.
1:02:08
Speaker 1: That's it. It's in the books.