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The 3 Conversations Every CFO Must Have With Their CEO with Alex Curran · The Diary of a CFO

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87 % of CFOs have said that AI will be important
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to their finance operations this year. And then
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7%, 8 % of them were only actually able to point
0:11
to any measurable return. 87 % wanted, but not
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even 10 % actually have it. Alex Curran is the
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CEO of Aptitude Software. She has spent more
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than a decade working with some of the world's
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most complex finance organizations. And today,
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she sits across the table from CFOs grappling
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with a fundamental shift in what's expected of
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the finance function. Over her 20 years at Aptitude,
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she set up the company's North American office
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and spent more than 10 years building its U .S.
0:38
and Canadian business. The CFO ends up being
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caught between a CEO asking for real -time answers
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and a system that actually can't produce them.
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What's really important to that is that the AI
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topic in general strengthens that partnership
0:52
between the CFO and the CEO. It brings them closer
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together because the stress is in the strains.
0:58
and the asks become louder. Now, what would you
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say are three things that CFOs should understand
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about handling the pressure of delivering an
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AI strategy that demonstrate ROI? It's the data,
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not the model. I think the models are absolutely
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extraordinary, right? But what's failing underneath
1:13
them is that the data that you see in these finance
1:15
functions, it's either siloed or it's batched
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and summarized before AI has even ever seen it.
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You've got to have the right technology underneath
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it to support it too. Understanding the difference
1:26
between what an AI native technology solutionism,
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one that's AI enabled, is key core fundamental.
1:33
And then I think the third point would be...
1:38
Today's episode is brought to you by Fynapse,
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app, I will drop the link in the show. Welcome
2:07
back to the Diary of a CFO podcast. I'm your host
2:09
Wassia Kamon, a sitting CFO with a background
2:11
in accounting and FP &A. I started this show
2:13
because I believe the way companies build and
2:16
lead their finance function determines whether
2:18
they scale or fall apart. Each week I sit down
2:20
with CFOs, CEOs, and strategic business partners
2:23
to talk about what that actually looks like in
2:25
reality. Building the right teams, getting the
2:27
systems and control in place, and partnering
2:30
with the business hopefully without burning out
2:32
in the process. So super excited to have with
2:35
me my guest, Alex Curran. She's the CEO of Aptitude
2:39
Software. Alex has spent more than a decade working
2:42
with some of the world's most complex finance
2:44
organizations. And today, she sits across the
2:48
table from CFOs, grappling with a fundamental
2:51
shift in what's expected of the finance function.
2:54
Yes, if you feel it, I do. Boards want faster
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answers. Businesses want real -time insight.
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AI is raising expectations again and again, yet
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many finance teams are still operating on accounting
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systems built around batch processes, fragmented
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data, and month -end cycles. That puts Alex in
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a particularly interesting position for this
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conversation. She sees firsthand where CFOs are
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struggling to close the gap between the finance
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function they have today and the one they are
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now being asked to build. We are going to talk
3:27
about what CFOs are getting wrong about AI, why
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the underlying accounting engine has suddenly
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become a board level issue, and what needs to
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change if finance is going to move from reporting
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what happened to helping shape what's next. We'll
3:42
also expel Fynipes after two new finance ERP
3:45
and why Alex believes a new generation of finance
3:48
technology is emerging to solve problems traditionally
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ERP were never designed for. Today she's here
3:56
to give us the CEO side of the story because
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from where Alex is a difference between a great
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CFO and one who never quite lands becomes down
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to a few specific conversations. Today she will
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tell us what those three conversations are. why
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they matter and where most CFOs keep them. Welcome
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to the show, Alex. Hey, thank you. I'm delighted
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to be here. So yeah, thank you very much for
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having me on today. Of course. I'm always, always
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wondering how people get into the world of accounting
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or involved in the industry at all. So please,
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please take us back to your early career and
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what drew you to the corporate finance, what
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drew you to aptitude and what kept you there.
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Yeah, look, I think to your point, right, accounting,
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finance, maybe not the most overly of exciting
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kind of topics. But I think, you know, aptitude
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has always been in a number of different sectors.
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And I think gaining awareness of how different
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sectors work, how different companies operate
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fascinated me. And then you combine that with
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being able to follow my passion for sales. That's
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where I started. I'm a super competitive individual.
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I think that combination was incredibly attractive.
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And I think then you add to that. looking at
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the products that Aptitude was proposing and
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selling into those different sectors. We were
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helping organisations become compliant with different
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regulatory standards that they were really struggling
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with. And you could see the relief when you met
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with them, you explained that you could help,
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and then you proved it by actually helping them
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and getting them live. And that was, I think,
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for me, really rewarding. I think in addition
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to that, I'm quite pacey. I move at pace and
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I think aptitude has always or has a legacy of
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moving very quickly, moving very fast, punching
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above our weight and building products that the
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market actually wants, but actually staying ahead
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of the market and building something, being at
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the forefront of the market. being able to get
6:21
ahead of the competition. So again, I think all
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of that combined was very attractive. And I think
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that has kept me there. But I also think, for
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me, we couldn't do any of that without the team
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and the people, right? So we work super hard.
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We believe deeply in what we're building. We
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enjoy it. And I think 20 years in, 20 years later,
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that is absolutely still what gets me out of
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bed. So, yeah, great question. Oh, that is awesome.
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Because it is quite rare to see someone 20 years
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at the same companies these days. So it speaks
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a lot to what you said around the people and
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the culture and also the product you keep bringing
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to the market. But you set up Attitudes North
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American Office. What would you say are some
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of the things you learned from that experience
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and have taken forward? Any culture shock? as
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well in the project. Yeah, great question actually,
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why don't I start there. Maybe not a cultural
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question, but definitely a language question.
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I think kind of everyone assumes that we both
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speak English, but I remember on a number of
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occasions kind of walking into shops and, you
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know, asking where the lift was or, I don't know,
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asking where, I don't know, actually like coriander
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as an example, they call it cilantro. And people
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were just giving me the weirdest looks because
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the words that we use are very, very different.
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So that was definitely a bit of a shock for me.
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But yeah, I think, back to your question, I spent
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quite a bit of my career, so probably 10 plus
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years in North America, working in the US and
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Canadian markets. I would say very, very grateful
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to have had that opportunity, even given the
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opportunity to go away and move out there. and
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grow the business and literally I moved out with
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a suitcase, a pad of paper and a pen and then
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hit the phones. So it was blood, sweat, tears,
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but so much fun building something from scratch
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and doing that in the nicest possible way with
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a small, largely unknown UK PLC. and going out
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there and doing it well was enormously rewarding.
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And yeah, I learned an incredible amount. And
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I would say a few things have stayed with me.
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So I'd say the first one, the value of partners.
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So our big four relationships have been able
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to get us close to clients that we would never
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have been able to kind of reach on our own when
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we first landed in the US. And the power of those
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partners and the power that they can, it's not
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just the power, I think it's like the growth
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that they can enable for any company, as an organization,
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as a CEO, you can't be reliant on just direct
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sales, like use your ecosystem around you. And
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I think the second thing is And I think that
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goes back to what has always attracted me about
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aptitude, and that's making sure that you're
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listening to the customers, the market, making
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sure that you're building products that meet
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the needs of the market. And I think that the
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third is the pace, right? The US market moves
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faster than anywhere else, and it leads. and
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what happens there then kind of shows up everywhere
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else kind of 18 months later. So being really
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close to that market really helps. with product
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development and obviously innovation in terms
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of product development that then obviously translates
10:00
into what we deliver and what our customers can
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then benefit from. So yeah, great experience.
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Loved every minute of it and learned so much
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to help me in my CEO role. That's amazing to
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hear, especially when you said I just came with
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a suitcase and had to get to work. Like curious
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to hear how you see the CFO role change just
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in that decade? Because I remember starting my
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career in accounting and finance and the CFOs
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was not what was not expected the same thing
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that the CFOs are, you know, expected today,
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especially how, you know, they accelerated like
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the pace of change in the office of the CFO.
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So what would you say are some of the pressures
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that you see from the finance leaders you're
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now listening to? Yeah, I think Yeah, totally
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agree with you. I think what the CFO was expected
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to do maybe, you know, 10, 20 years ago is very
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different to what they're expected to do now.
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I think long gone are the days where they are
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expected to be the, or allowed to be just kind
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of the historian, kind of the custodian of the
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data, where they're allowed to just kind of close
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the books on a monthly basis. basically, yeah,
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automate accounting, but that that those days
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are gone, I think the direction of travel isn't
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new CFOs providing or being that historian, they
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are very quickly moving towards needing to be
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that co pilot and having that co pilot relationship
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with their CEO. And I think what we've seen that,
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that transformation, that kind of change in role
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happened over the last five years, but the speed
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of change, has accelerated and what's changed
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I think is the clock. I think AI has removed
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the luxury of time. I think AI has definitely
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increased the pressure that boards are placing
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on the wider business because they want to see
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scenarios, modern forecasts in the moment, not
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in the pack, the board pack kind of next month.
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And I think quarterly rhythms are disappearing.
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I think now expectations need to be set in weeks,
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if not days. And there's a growing, growing push
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for a continuous close or even zero day, day
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close. And I think set against that, if your
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finance function is taking 15 days to close with
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complex reconciliations, manual processes, I
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think that ends up being quite a drag on a business.
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And that, again, doesn't go back to the team
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not doing a good job. I think the challenge that
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organizations are finding is that the architecture
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that has kind of underpinned finance teams for
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so long basically won't enable them to go faster.
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And I think lots of organizations are seeing
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that traditional ERPs can't get them to that
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kind of co -pilot. pilot status. And I think
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that pressure is becoming real across every sector,
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every region, across every CFO office that we're
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talking to and that our partners are talking
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to. So how do you feel about that? You know,
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you being a CEO, what are now your expectations
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from your own CFO, right? Like, what do you now
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feel like, yeah, as a CEO, I'm going through
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this, so I'm expecting my CFO to do? like what
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would you say is that for you? Yeah, so I would
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say that I want my CFO to look at the systems
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that support the function. I want the CFO to,
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we've all seen the SAS apocalypse. happened over
13:56
the last kind of six to 12 months. I think there's
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a realisation that the pace of technology is
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changing much faster than anyone has ever seen.
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And I think what I would be saying to my CFO
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is just because you have implemented a traditional
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set of technologies in the past, looking at how
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AI is disrupting what organisations are needing
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to do, I'd encourage the CFOs to think incredibly
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differently about how and what they're going
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to implement to underpin their finance architecture
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to be able to drive real -time information to
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enable a continuous close and to enable a real
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-time P &L that the CFO and the CEO can then
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collaboratively work on and use that information,
14:42
current information. to then drive the business
14:46
forwards. So I think, yeah, the pressure is on,
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I think also not just for the CFOs, but the CEOs
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to encourage their CFOs to think very, very differently.
14:58
Okay. And what would you say is the most common
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misalignment you see between a CEO and their
15:04
CFO or the finance function? Yeah, good question.
15:09
I would say it's... I would say it's usually
15:12
not ambition, right? I think both sides I think
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typically want the same thing and that's the
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CEO is asking the questions and the CFO wants
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to be able to answer those questions instantaneously.
15:28
But the challenge, the misalignment there right
15:30
now is that the CFO can't answer it because the
15:34
systems that underpin the finance team can't
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support that. And I think what you typically
15:39
see right now within a finance architecture.
15:42
And obviously I'm out speaking to the controllers,
15:45
chief Catholic officers, CFOs all the time. And,
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you know, the common challenge that they have
15:49
is that the data is batched, it's summarized.
15:56
So when someone goes looking for the detail,
15:59
you know... it either takes a long time to do
16:01
or all the details gone. And then obviously then
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you've got the added pressure of AI. So if you
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put AI, sorry, I can't talk, but put AI on top
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of that and you end up getting half an answer
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and in finance, half an answer is worse than
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none, right? Because somebody still has to sign
16:19
it. And what the business actually needs is numbers
16:21
that you can defend to the board and the ability
16:23
to spot something odd kind of. while there's
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actually still time to be able to fix it, not
16:29
weeks later. And again, it's not about how hard
16:32
the team is working, it's about what they're
16:34
working on. So I think for me, the misalignment
16:37
is the systems that underpin finance to be able
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to mobilize and enable CFOs to be able to support
16:45
their shared ambitions because I do think there's
16:48
great alignment. there in most organizations
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that we're talking to. And like how you said,
16:53
we have the same ambitions because I've yet to
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meet a CFO who doesn't want to be able to answer
16:57
those questions. But definitely at the foundation,
17:02
it is hard to answer those questions in a timely
17:06
manner. So would you say that the zero -day close
17:10
is actually a reality? Because I still have a
17:13
lot of CFOs and controllers that I like. Is it
17:16
even possible to have a zero -day close? So I'm
17:19
pretty sure, but I don't know what will be a
17:21
figure. But I'm curious to hear, maybe it's just
17:25
1 % that have a zero -day close. Is it a reality,
17:28
first, before we dive into how we make it a reality?
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Yeah, of course. So I think it can be a reality.
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I think the number of organisations that have
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taken that leap and implemented finance systems
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that enable that reality are limited right now.
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We're working with a number of organisations
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where we have enabled a real -time P &L and they're
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struggling to find other organisations within
17:59
their peer group who have achieved the same.
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And their biggest challenge now is not compliance.
18:06
It's not automation. It's not having, you know,
18:11
poor kind of reconciliations. All of that's fixed.
18:14
Their challenge now is how do they actually operationalize
18:18
that information to be able to serve their wider
18:21
business and actually monetize, you know, the
18:25
data. will use the data to monetize different
18:28
services, launch different products to drive
18:32
their business forwards. But yeah, it is a reality
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if a CFO and CEO are aligned on the fact that
18:40
they need a system change and that they can't.
18:42
reimplement or implement a technology that's,
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you know, 10 to 15 years old, you know, technology
18:48
has moved on leaps and bounds. And I like how
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you said, like, once you have that zero day close,
18:54
you can then move on to do all those other things
18:56
that will help the rest of your business. But
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so many of us are tied into that first step.
19:01
that there is only so much capacity when it's
19:04
time to do other stuff. So curious to hear, since
19:08
you work with CFOs who are facing down the next
19:12
ERP transformation, it is a huge undertaking.
19:17
So how do you guide them through that process?
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Whether it's getting the right alignment, finding
19:23
the right tool, making sure the right tool is
19:25
implemented the right way, because that's another
19:27
hill as well. Yeah, yeah. I think, again, I think
19:32
it's looking at how you kind of move away from
19:38
what you've been comfortable with before. So
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I think, look, historically, there's been three
19:42
choices out in the market. And those ERP systems
19:46
have enabled organizations to kind of run their
19:49
finance processes, their operations through it.
19:53
And there's been a choice of three. You pick
19:54
one, you crack on, and that's it. that the world
19:57
has moved on, right? Like people need to have
20:00
real time information and those traditionally
20:02
RPs are, you know, are not going to be retrofitted
20:06
for the AI era. And, you know, we've seen organizations
20:11
spend millions and several years on transformations
20:14
that have either failed or products or on products
20:19
that, you know, kind of, you know, that weren't
20:21
designed or never right for them. And that's
20:24
the experience I think most CFOs have. are currently
20:27
drawing on. So I think the caution makes complete
20:32
sense. I was talking to a CFO a couple of days
20:36
ago who was very open about the fact that they
20:41
had upgraded their general ledger and they had
20:45
purely upgraded their general ledger to take
20:49
risk off the table. They'd spent millions upon
20:52
millions doing it, years of the team's time.
20:55
And his own assessment was that the finance function
20:59
was, after all of that effort and spend, was
21:02
no better off than when they started. That's
21:05
a lot of money to stand still. And I don't think
21:09
that that level of spend, that time, that effort
21:12
to not move the dial and progress your business
21:16
is something that CFOs can do anymore. But I
21:20
think really positively they have been in that
21:24
position because there haven't been solutions
21:26
on the market that have enabled them to do something
21:29
different. So I say my advice is pretty blunt,
21:32
right? I would say don't buy legacy technology.
21:36
Be brave and look at what else is out on the
21:40
market because that's changed. And I don't think
21:45
many CFOs have realized that. So again, you don't
21:50
have to do it all at once also. I think there's
21:54
a misconception that these finance transformation
21:58
programs also have to be big bang. As an example,
22:04
don't touch your general ledger. Extend the life
22:06
of the investment that you've made, especially
22:08
if the CFO that I've just spoken about has spent
22:10
the last five years implementing it and spent
22:12
hundreds of millions of dollars on it. Leave
22:15
your general ledger where it is. It's designed
22:17
to, it's meant to be light and it's meant to
22:20
just literally be your exact management regulatory
22:23
reporting level. What I would say is bring in
22:27
a market -leading sub -ledger underneath it.
22:29
because that's where you hold all of the complexity,
22:33
that's where you hold all of your accounting
22:34
logic, and that's where you hold all of your
22:36
real -time information. So again, I think there
22:40
are lots of different options out there for the
22:43
CFO, and I think the other thing just to add
22:46
to that that I would say is be careful when...
22:53
You know, you're looking at technology where
22:55
AI is kind of added on on top of old architecture.
22:59
I think what we're seeing in the market is that
23:02
by implementing old tech with kind of embedded
23:06
AI in it, I don't think you actually fix many
23:10
things. I think you just make the mess bigger
23:12
and faster and considerably more more expensive.
23:16
So, again, I would, yeah, there are lots of different
23:19
technologies out there, not just aptitude software.
23:22
So I would go out and have a look at the new
23:26
kids on the block to be able to support your
23:29
finance process. Wow. You touched on so many
23:33
good points there. I just want to go back to
23:35
when you talked about how legacy ERPs cannot
23:39
really help you in what AI is now requiring of
23:44
the finance function. Can you please explain
23:46
a little bit more and also from some of our listeners
23:49
not understanding fully what an ERP supposed
23:52
to do in the first place? Yeah, so look, you've
23:54
got an ERP that does a couple of things. So traditionally
23:59
you think of an ERP that supports your kind of
24:02
operational part of your business. So your HR,
24:05
your procurement, your supply chain, really important,
24:08
you know. pieces of the business, but not necessarily
24:12
pieces, components of the business that will
24:15
drive or change your strategic direction. That's
24:18
on one side. And then on the other side, you
24:20
have your finance ERP. So you've got your general
24:23
ledger, you've got your AP, you've got your AR,
24:26
and you've got fixed assets just as some of the,
24:31
to give examples of some of the modules that
24:33
you see within some of your finance ERP. the
24:38
finance component of the ERP. So that is an ERP.
24:44
And that, as I said earlier, kind of typically
24:46
there are three vendors out in the market, I'm
24:48
sure everyone knows who they are, who have kind
24:50
of captured that market and organizations have
24:53
traditionally just run their business through
24:55
it. But if you look at the finance ERP component,
24:58
if you're looking at one of the big three, you
25:00
know, legacy technology, technology that's been
25:03
around for 10, 15 years, maybe more, very rigid,
25:08
so, you know, very difficult to kind of evolve,
25:11
to amend in line with, you know, launching of
25:14
new products or going into new countries or adding
25:17
different accounting rules. In addition to that,
25:21
they're typically batched, so they process. data
25:25
in batches versus real time and they typically
25:29
don't process high transaction volume. So you
25:32
are and you have kind of aggregated information.
25:35
When it comes to AI, they are not AI native.
25:39
Obviously, they've been around for a long time,
25:41
so they haven't been built up from the ground
25:44
up with AI in mind because AI didn't really exist
25:47
10, 15 years ago. So what they're doing is they're
25:51
embedding AI technology into their old technology.
25:56
And that AI technology will then be sat within
25:59
those products for the next three to five to
26:03
10 years. And obviously we've seen the speed
26:06
and the pace of change. And therefore what we're
26:10
seeing in the market is a a new set of finance
26:14
ERP vendors coming to the market that are AI
26:17
native. And what that means is that they can
26:21
plug and play with any AI technology and therefore
26:24
you're not tied to one particular AI vendor as
26:28
an example. And you need that optionality based
26:31
on obviously the change of pace that we're seeing.
26:34
Wow. And so what would you say are some of the
26:37
things that an AI native ERP can do? like just
26:41
to give people an idea of, hey, this would be
26:45
basic if this wasn't an AI native ERP versus
26:49
you trying to retrofit into the legacy ERP you
26:52
have. Yeah. So look, I think the new set of finance
26:55
ERPs can do a lot of... A lot of great things.
26:59
So I think they, number one, they remove the
27:04
elongated, costly, expensive project implementation
27:09
timelines. So I think if you look at traditional
27:13
ERP, finance ERP, you're probably looking at
27:16
two to three to five years, tens, if not hundreds
27:18
of millions of dollars to implement. The way
27:20
in which these vendors have set themselves up
27:24
is that they have built these technologies with
27:28
a set of predefined templates, set of assets
27:32
that help to kind of accelerate the implementation
27:34
time. And also they have brought in a lot of
27:38
use of AI to automate configurations. So again,
27:42
I think that's a big tick. Secondly, it gives
27:45
you that optionality. So you're not tied to a
27:49
particular. AI tech, so if you're using Chachapi
27:53
-T, maybe now, but you're then gonna go to OpenAI
27:57
and utilize different, I guess, capabilities
28:01
from different AI vendors. They provide the kind
28:05
of standard APIs that you can plug in and play.
28:09
So again, it gives you that flexibility. And
28:11
then obviously going back to your original, or
28:13
one of your original questions was, is a continuous
28:16
close, real -time close, zero -day close possible,
28:22
the way in which these vendors are setting their
28:24
systems up to process hundreds of millions of
28:26
journal lines, to stream information, to stream
28:30
data, they are making sure that their systems
28:35
and solutions support that zero -day close. They
28:38
are making it possible. So yeah, I think it's...
28:42
Yeah, an important shift and change that we're
28:45
seeing in the market. And I think more CFO should
28:48
go out and evaluate those vendors. And these
28:52
are all amazing. I mean, just to think that what
28:54
used to take three, five years you can do within
28:56
a year of implementation is amazing. And then
29:00
you now can see how every line that comes through
29:03
an expense report can be on the financial statement
29:07
instead of waiting to be batched and approved.
29:10
I think it's It's pretty amazing and exciting
29:12
at the same time, but also scary, right? For
29:15
some people it's like, okay, I'm not sure, am
29:18
I letting go of something? And then opening myself
29:21
to more risks. So I'm curious to hear, how do
29:24
you think AI has impacted those strategic partnerships
29:28
between CFOs and their CEOs, like when they're
29:31
having those conversations around AI? Let's take
29:35
a quick break so I can tell you more about FineApps.
29:38
FineApps is an AI native finance ERP that runs
29:41
in real time, which means it's a new product
29:44
that moves beyond the limitation of a traditional
29:46
ERP general ledger, which takes weeks to close
29:49
the books and can only report numbers from the
29:51
past. FineApps is a super ledger, a unified system
29:54
of four detail summary and reporting that captures
29:57
every financial event in detail. It is not a
30:00
whole product with AI bolted on top. It is truly
30:03
AI native. They have guardrails for agents who
30:06
run inside the system and produce numbers that
30:09
are traced back to the event. So financing might
30:12
always audit ready. If you want to learn more
30:14
about the solution, I do encourage you to visit
30:17
fineapps .app. It is F -Y -N -A -P -S -E. I will
30:22
drop the link in the show notes. Yeah. So I look,
30:25
I think it's. I think it's raised the stakes
30:28
for both of them. And we actually, we funded
30:33
some research on this as part of our autonomous
30:37
finance survey. And I think the numbers were,
30:42
I think it was something like 87 % of CFOs, I
30:46
think, said that AI will be important to their
30:52
finance operations this year. And then I think
30:56
it was something like 7%, 8 % of them were only
31:01
actually able to point to kind of any measurable
31:04
return. And I think that's quite a stark stack.
31:10
87 wants it, but not even 10 % actually have
31:13
it. So I think, you know, how does that kind
31:18
of change the CFO CEO partnership? And I think
31:23
it goes back to, you know, the systems that underpin
31:27
it. So I think the CFO ends up being caught between,
31:31
you know, a CEO asking for kind of real time
31:34
answers, and again, back to the system, right,
31:37
and the system that actually can't produce them.
31:40
But I think, though, what's really important
31:42
to that is that it strengthens, I think the AI
31:46
topic in general, right, strengthens that partnership
31:49
between the CFO and the CEO. And I think, you
31:53
know, making sure that they are working extremely
31:55
close together to make sure that the finance
31:59
function is set up to be able to support that
32:03
ambition is is key core core fundamental. So
32:07
I think it brings them closer together because
32:09
the stresses and the strains and the asks become
32:12
louder. Now, about the 87 % of CFOs wants it,
32:19
but only 7 % can show ROI. What would you say
32:23
are three things that CFOs should understand
32:25
about handling the pressure of delivering an
32:28
AI strategy that demonstrate ROI, like an actual
32:32
return on investment? Not just saying I just
32:34
checked the box, but I'm actually getting something
32:37
out of it. Yeah, I think... So what should, yeah,
32:42
I guess three things CFO should understand about
32:44
delivering that ROI. I would say, first of all,
32:48
what I think it's the data, well, I would say
32:52
that data is key core fundamental, right? So
32:55
making sure that you've got... data in one place
32:58
that's highly granular, that's books record quality,
33:02
that's controlled and governed is important because
33:05
I think it's the data, not the model. I think
33:07
the models are absolutely extraordinary, right?
33:09
But what's failing underneath them is that the
33:11
data that you see in these finance functions,
33:15
it's either siloed or it's batched and summarized
33:18
before AI has even ever. seen it. And I think
33:22
that that's a big kind of undertaking for CFOs
33:28
and CEOs to be working through. So I think that's
33:33
something that you've got to get right. And I
33:36
think secondly, if you can't trace it, you can't
33:39
defend it, you can't act on it. and if you can't
33:43
act on it, then there's absolutely no return.
33:45
So I think that's the first point I want to make.
33:48
I think in addition to that, I think it's not
33:50
just the data. Again, right, you need as, I'll
33:53
probably sound like a stock record, but you've
33:55
got to have the right technology underneath it
33:57
to support it too. And I think again, going back
34:01
to... really understanding the difference between
34:03
what an AI native technology solution is and
34:07
one that's AI enabled is key core fundamental
34:10
because you don't want to be stuck with one particular
34:13
AI technology that then changes their commercial
34:17
model and then the spend that you have to increase
34:22
to be able to keep up with how users are using
34:24
it. Again, you want that option to be able to
34:26
kind of flex in and out. And then I think the
34:28
third point would be making sure that you kind
34:31
of keep the human in the loop. I think, you know,
34:34
AI, I think there's a misconception. I think
34:36
you hear lots of noise in the media at the moment
34:39
about the fact that AI isn't, you know, it's
34:42
here to kind of replace humans. In my view, AI
34:46
isn't here to replace your team. You've got to
34:49
trust what it surfaces, but you also then, in
34:52
finance especially, right, you need someone who's
34:54
checked it and will stand behind it. So, yeah,
34:57
I think there's a lot that organizations get
35:00
out of it, but I think you have to get the data
35:02
right, get the technology right, and make sure
35:05
that you keep humans in the process to make sure
35:08
that you can realize the return on investment
35:10
and measure it especially as well. Yeah. What
35:12
would you say are some of the things that, like,
35:14
what is the one thing CFOs struggle the most
35:18
with? I know you mentioned getting your data
35:19
right, making sure you have the right technology,
35:22
making sure you are able to have the right...
35:24
you know, the right human, also the right process
35:27
to have the human in the loop. What would you
35:29
say from your conversations is the number one
35:32
thing that most CFOs struggle? I think it's the
35:35
systems. I think it's technology enabling them
35:39
to do what they need to do. Because, again, I
35:44
don't think you can fix a data without fixing
35:46
the system that holds it. And I think people
35:48
try it. But they put kind of racks on top or
35:52
a reporting layer. or they try and, in addition
35:56
to that, kind of try and clean things up manually.
36:00
But if your systems that you're using, whether
36:02
or not it's for subledger, general ledger, FP
36:06
&A, if it's not being fed by clean real -time
36:10
information and you have a data hub, finance
36:14
data hub that's holding information at a transactional
36:17
level in the first place, Yeah, it's very, very
36:21
difficult to support any kind of AI strategy
36:26
as well. So for the CFO listings who are indeed
36:31
struggling with the technology part like where
36:34
should they begin? Because you know we hear a
36:38
lot that data Like a lot of people I spoke to
36:41
that okay your data, right? You actually one
36:43
of the few people that said okay You probably
36:45
need a better technology altogether that will
36:48
help you with your data and help you with having
36:50
the human Right? Some technology that helps you
36:53
bring those three key elements together. So where
36:57
would you say is, you know, what are one or two
37:00
steps? Where should CFOs begin on that journey?
37:04
Yeah. Look, I think before you select any vendor,
37:08
I think you run through a checklist. I think
37:13
these are some of the questions that now need
37:15
to be asked. I think when you're talking to a
37:18
vendor, I think you need to be talking to them
37:20
about whether or not the AI, is it working on
37:23
the transaction level data? Can you trace every
37:26
number back to the transaction that's been generated?
37:30
Going back to your close point, does your close
37:32
or can the system allow you to run a closed process
37:36
continuously? And making sure, especially if
37:40
you're looking at some of the AI native solutions
37:42
out there, does the governance live in the accounting
37:46
engine itself? And do you get the same output
37:48
for the same input every single time? I would
37:51
say two other things I'd watch out for. Don't
37:53
get locked into a vendor that insists that you
37:56
use their agent or ties you to one model. Again,
37:58
going back to the AI native point, AI is moving
38:02
too fast. Technology is moving too fast to be
38:05
locked in. And then I would also say prioritize
38:08
what we describe as a kind of a glass box model
38:11
where you can trace the lineage of every number
38:14
the AI gives you. I think. you know, it's okay
38:17
and no offense to the marketing teams out there.
38:20
If marketing launch a promotional activity, a
38:23
campaign, you know, if a campaign doesn't work
38:27
as effectively as maybe the marketing team had
38:31
hoped, I guess, you know, it's okay, not great,
38:35
but okay. you go out with a number within finance,
38:39
you go out to shareholders, your investors, the
38:41
public markets with an incorrect number, you
38:44
know, the consequences can be disastrous, right?
38:46
So really thinking through has this vendor, you
38:50
know, had the experience working with large publicly
38:55
facing organizations that drive and demand the
38:59
controls of other highly regulated industries
39:01
is key core fundamental as well, because the
39:04
consequences of not being able to prove that
39:09
answer and make sure it's correct are extremely
39:11
serious as every CFO listening knows all too
39:14
well. Yeah, and I love your checklist and the
39:18
question that resonated the most with me is we
39:21
get the same output. for the right input, like
39:26
that part. Curious to hear more about that, like,
39:29
because it is, you know, different model will
39:31
give you different things, but curious to hear,
39:33
like, what, what actually goes in the background
39:35
to make sure you, you actually get it. Cause
39:37
for a human, for example, I know that one plus
39:39
one equal two, right? I know it. If I know where
39:44
the data comes from, I'm able to recalculate.
39:46
If I use Excel, I'm able to retrace a formula.
39:50
And sometimes AI feels like a black box. So curious
39:54
to hear what maybe your solutions or what you've
39:57
seen in the market or in your conversations have
40:00
helped make sure that every time you are asking
40:03
AI for this, you actually get the right result.
40:07
Because you're right. Getting the wrong result
40:09
can really put you in trouble in finance and
40:12
accounting? Yeah, look, I think we've spent an
40:17
awful lot of time, a great deal of time, you
40:20
know, working with some of the largest, most
40:21
complex organizations in the world, helping them
40:23
with regulation, compliance, helping them with
40:27
their subledger capabilities. And therefore,
40:30
you know, when it comes to our software product,
40:33
finance, you know, we've taken everything that
40:35
we've learned through those finance transformation
40:38
projects. and we have made sure that FineApps
40:43
has those frameworks, those controls, the governance,
40:47
the data lineage, the audit capabilities, and
40:51
when it comes to our agents that work within
40:54
it. that software product. We ensure that they
40:58
obviously work in line with those governance
41:02
structures and frameworks, but frameworks and
41:05
governance structures that have been established.
41:09
I guess are proven to have worked with, as I
41:13
said, some of the most largest organizations
41:15
in the world time and again. So I think for me,
41:20
you know, would I recommend a CFO look at an
41:24
AI native software vendor that spent the last
41:27
two or three years in the market? No. But would
41:29
I recommend that they look at an AI native solution
41:32
to support their finance and accounting processes
41:34
with a vendor that's been in the market for 30
41:36
or 40 years and has done this many times before?
41:39
then yes. But again, you've got to be very obviously
41:43
careful within the finance realm in terms of
41:46
how we use agents. within these software products.
41:50
Let's talk about agents. I have one question.
41:53
So if we were to talk a little bit more about
41:56
agents. So obviously agent can do things, break
42:01
things or things like that. Like what is the
42:03
right setup? Like what is okay for an agent to
42:06
do versus not okay for an agent to do for people
42:09
just getting into agentic AI? Yeah, of course.
42:13
Look, I think agents should be used for some
42:16
of the more menial tasks, kind of tasks that
42:19
I think humans can stop doing and start working
42:23
on other interesting things. So, you know, basically
42:26
looking for anomalies in the data that the system
42:31
receives as an example, looking at how and supporting
42:35
reconciliations, looking at automating manual
42:39
tasks. So for me, I think agents should be used
42:43
for those types of activities. in the initial
42:47
phases and I think then the humans can then work
42:52
on how do we use the data that we're generating
42:55
if we are achieving a zero -day close and we
42:58
actually are able to work on current data. How
43:01
could FP &A, how can risk, how can marketing
43:04
actually benefit from that? So I think initially,
43:08
I think as you build trust in those agents, I
43:11
think it's those, yeah, more kind of manual tasks
43:14
as part of your process. Okay. And then as you
43:17
graduate, like once you have the agents do the
43:20
manual, like what is the next step? I think they
43:23
can do lots of different things. I've worked
43:25
with lots of big four organizations and they
43:30
talk about the concept of organizations having
43:33
a fully autonomous finance function where they
43:37
have agents literally running their finance functions.
43:40
You have controllers sitting in each of the entities
43:44
that the controllers are agents. They talk to
43:47
one another. They discuss. how to approach and
43:50
how to address certain problems. And then they
43:54
call upon the human, obviously when they hit
43:57
a restriction or something that they need to
44:00
obviously go to a human for a checkpoint as an
44:02
example. So I think the use of agents can go
44:06
broad and very wide, but where organizations
44:10
are right now, organizations are still, I think,
44:13
very focused on even trying to get the basics
44:15
right, automating the finance processes. cleaning
44:18
up the data, making sure that they can actually
44:21
even get to a real time close by making changes
44:24
to their upfront systems to make sure that they
44:27
can support event level accounting. So I think
44:30
moving from that to then having an autonomous
44:33
finance function I think is, I'm not saying it's
44:35
10 years away, but it's probably a long way away
44:38
from where they are today. But yeah, I think
44:40
it's going to be incredibly interesting to see
44:43
the adoption and who moves fast and what the
44:47
impact practice to the wider industry. And that's
44:50
very, that's, that's very exciting for me. Because
44:53
I remember when I started my, my accounting career,
44:56
we're just trying to do a five day close. Like
44:58
that was like, just five days. Can we close in
45:03
five days? That was like the gold standard. And
45:07
to see that now zero day close is like the goal.
45:10
Like when somebody tells me they're closing one
45:12
day, I'm like, let's get on the calendar. Let's
45:14
meet. because it is so, it's super exciting.
45:19
So curious to hear from your seat as a CEO, what
45:22
may be something that now you see as a gold standard
45:26
and probably a decade when you started Aptitude
45:29
in North America, it was just like, eh, you know,
45:33
I didn't see it that way. So curious to hear
45:35
what's exciting for you right now. I think what
45:39
is exciting is that we are seeing the pressure,
45:44
like AI, I would say, we're seeing AI act as
45:47
a compliance standard in terms of how organizations
45:52
are feeling the pressure to make sure that they
45:55
are utilizing AI effectively across their organization,
46:00
starting with finance. And what I think is really
46:03
exciting, and I would say this right, I'm the
46:05
CEO of an AI native finance and accounting system.
46:10
But I'm seeing CFOs acknowledge that the traditional
46:14
ERPs are not going to be able to support them
46:17
in this AI era. You know, for their time, right,
46:19
they were absolutely extraordinary. But there
46:21
is a shift taking place and there is a realization
46:26
that... Organizations that aren't able to move
46:30
in this direction aren't able to properly kind
46:32
of swept the use of AI or have the data at their
46:36
fingertips will be at a disadvantage because
46:39
there are organizations out there who have recognized
46:42
this and are in the process of implementing AI
46:45
native finance solutions to be able to enable
46:48
them to get ahead of the market. And those that
46:51
don't make that change and that are slow to make
46:54
that change will fall. further and further behind.
46:58
So I think it's super exciting right now, not
47:01
just as obviously as a finance and accounting
47:03
software CEO, but actually to see what organizations
47:07
and businesses can do and what they can achieve
47:09
through having these capabilities internally
47:12
and really exciting for their teams as well.
47:15
You know, teams that have spent years kind of
47:17
manually reconciling information, hand ticking
47:20
and tying kind of charts of accounts. Yeah, finally
47:23
are going to be able to actually work. of the
47:26
exciting parts of the business. And I think that's,
47:29
yeah, I think that's it. It's a super interesting
47:31
place to be right now. Yeah, I cannot wait to
47:34
be able to just go on vacation at the end of
47:37
the month. Like that has been the biggest flex,
47:40
like in being in accounting and finance, because
47:42
you literally, like for decades, as long as I
47:45
can remember, you literally structuring your
47:47
time off your vacation around those you know,
47:52
quarter end and month end and all these duties.
47:55
So I'm really, really excited about that. I have
47:59
one last question for you before we leave. What
48:01
is your favorite thing to do outside of work?
48:05
Well, as you can imagine, aptitude takes up an
48:10
awful lot of my time. I'm very passionate about
48:12
this business. I love this business. I believe
48:16
deeply in what we're doing and what that could
48:20
enable for the aptitude team. So therefore, what
48:25
do I do outside of business when I have some
48:27
time? It probably sounds very dull and boring,
48:31
but I spend it with my family and my husband
48:35
also. I have to mention him. But yeah, so family,
48:41
friends, and in addition to that, I'm a firm
48:43
believer in exercise, body and mind. So I very
48:49
much like going to the gym, riding my bike, playing
48:53
tennis, all of the above to make sure that...
48:57
you know, I can sustain the energy that I need.
49:02
So yeah, so yeah, I don't have any crazy hobbies,
49:06
I'm afraid. Well, that's already good. Like right
49:09
now, my hobby is being able to take a nap on
49:12
the weekend. I didn't know at this age, I would
49:16
be looking forward to take a nap. But it's just
49:19
been a thing for me. Good thing. Good thing.
49:23
Yes. So thank you so, so much, Alex, for being
49:28
on the show here. If anyone is listening and
49:31
wants to follow your work and learn more about
49:34
your work, find apps and yourself, where should
49:37
they go? Yeah, of course. So Aptitude Software
49:40
is the organization that I represent. So, yeah,
49:45
LinkedIn, to me, or for our website, which is
49:50
obviously www .aptitudesoftware. And yeah, we'd
49:55
be very much looking forward to hearing from
50:00
you all. Thank you so much. And that's it for
50:03
today's episode. If you got something from this
50:05
conversation, share with someone in your world
50:07
who will benefit from it. Share the show wherever
50:10
you listen, subscribe, so you don't miss out
50:13
on the next episode. This is Wassia Kamon, and
50:15
it has been the diary of the CFO Podcast.