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From Wall Street High to Rock Bottom: Sean Mueller’s Redemption Story: Fuel To Change · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
And, you know, thankfully I came to the conclusion that my kids
0:03
are going to walk me around even if I'm broke, they're going to
0:06
rather have me alive and broke rather than an insurance check
0:09
and this massive hole in their heart.
0:11
And that was, that was really the first time in several years
0:15
that I actually put integrity ahead of any other choice,
0:19
especially success. Because, you know, up until that
0:22
point, when I was at that corner, that intersection of
0:25
success and integrity, I was unfortunately choosing success.
0:29
I was trying to keep that identity alive.
0:31
And it almost killed me. And thankfully, you know, that's
0:35
just thinking of my sons. It kept me alive and gave me a
0:38
chance to actually correct those character traits that got me to
0:41
that point. What happens when your worst
0:44
fear becomes your reality? Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome
0:47
to the Nightmare Success In and Out podcast where we explore how
0:50
to overcome your fears and nightmares and set yourself
0:53
free. We're going to be exploring this
0:54
topic with guys that was in Livermore with and others who
0:58
survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
1:01
sometimes sad, there's some humor, but hopefully you can
1:04
come away with a nugget of something that'll help you knock
1:07
down some of the prisons you built up in your own mind.
1:10
All right, welcome back nightmare success in that.
1:12
Listeners, This is where you come from.
1:13
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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How do you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free.
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And folks, don't forget to follow.
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Subscribe share this thing out, like it up.
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It really helps the show and I appreciate it.
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So who are we talking to today on Nightmare Success?
1:29
Well, we are talking to Sean Mueller and he's got incredibly
1:33
interesting story. It's all around the hedge fund
1:37
world. And when this all happened was
1:40
the time period of the Bernie Madoff world and and everybody
1:44
who had just gone crazy on Wall Street.
1:46
Well, Sean happened to be in that business and they were
1:50
handing out sentences at that time and double, triple,
1:53
quadruple what they would. And in the time before this and,
1:57
and Sean got wrapped up and all that.
2:00
A little bit about Sean. He was a hedge fund manager and
2:04
he began his finance career after being hired as a
2:07
stockbroker without a college degree.
2:10
He later founded and managed his own hedge fund called the
2:14
Mueller Capital, raising over 100 million before a series of
2:18
ethical blind spots driven by performance.
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First thinking culminated in a 14 year sentence in state prison
2:26
for securities fraud. After his release, Sean returned
2:31
to higher education, earned a Bachelor of Arts and
2:33
Communication, graduated summa cum laude, and being named a
2:37
finalist for Undergraduate Student of the Year.
2:41
He's got a book coming out, folks.
2:43
It'll be a good one. It's called Fuel to change.
2:46
Turning set back into strength. Today, Sean speaks to
2:50
leadership, compliance and professional audiences about
2:53
ethical decision making under pressure, the psychology of
2:56
misconduct, and how setbacks can be transformed into lasting
3:01
string. He also serves on the University
3:04
of Colorado Denver Prison Education Program Advisory
3:07
Board, which is wonderful. We're going to want to talk
3:09
about that because that's just stuff that helps people while
3:12
they're in to get equipped to come out for re entry.
3:14
And re entry isn't easy and we we know that I can't wait to
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story. Welcome in Sean Mueller, How are
4:46
you? Hey, good.
4:47
Thanks, Brent. Good to be here.
4:48
Well, it's, it's great to have you.
4:50
So Sean, your story, you know, we talked a lot on the phone the
4:53
other day about just how this all happened and, and you know,
4:56
the moments that happened that where you had decisions to make
5:00
and, and those decisions you take a left turn or a right turn
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and what how that changes the pathway of your life.
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Take us back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about Sean,
5:09
growing up before all this happened.
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Siblings, parents, where you were?
5:15
Right. So Brent, my dad was born in
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Kansas during the Great Depression, grew up on a farm.
5:22
My mom grew up in Ireland and was raised in an orphanage run
5:26
by Irish Catholic nuts. Both had obviously difficult
5:30
childhoods. They both grew up without moms.
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They met during World War 2 in England and came to America,
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started a family, had seven kids.
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Dad worked a blue collar job. We always had a roof.
5:44
We always had food. Obviously growing up, you know,
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with seven kids, that's tough to, you know, have any extra.
5:52
So I was constantly seeing capitalism on TV and the movies
5:57
and realized, wow, seemed like those people had no problems in
6:02
life because I just justified. Well, they have money, so they
6:05
must be doing all right. So I started reading stocks and
6:09
business books when I was about 12-13 years old.
6:12
Really wasn't a great student in high school, but still got to
6:16
college. Got to college realized wow this
6:18
is this is horrible because I was having to sit through
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psychology, philosophy, sociology classes and in my head
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I was there to learn how to make money and I didn't feel like
6:30
those classes were doing me 8 in favor trying to help me get to
6:33
that point of making money. So unfortunately, I started
6:37
skipping those classes and going to the school library, reading
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more business books. And after a couple years of this
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couple of semesters, I'm realizing this is an absolute
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waste of time and money right now.
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I need to move on. And so I got a job and you know,
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it was, it was interesting because then I realized after a
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couple years of working full time, I need to go back and get
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a degree because I want to be a stockbroker and no one's going
7:01
to hire me without that degree. So I did a first semester.
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Suddenly I was a really good student because I understood
7:07
what I was there for and was willing to play the game.
7:10
I'll go to your classes, I want the degree.
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Well after a semester, unfortunately I ran out of money
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and had to get a job. I saw an ad for a stockbroker
7:20
job, said you needed a degree, Applied for it anyway, went to
7:24
the interview, ended up getting the job because they realized I
7:28
understood about the market more than a typical starting broker
7:31
would. They gave me a shot and it all
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worked out, but unfortunately the more I got into that
7:38
business, the more I just kept reading about stocks and
7:42
business, doubling down on that one sided education.
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And after a few years I ended up taking over the firm's
7:48
management position. I was the principal.
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Did that for a bit and realized I wanted to trade stocks and
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open up a hedge fund a while after that and it was just
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straight success right from the get go.
8:01
Right from the start of it I was trading stocks, options, futures
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short term. Sean, let's talk a little bit
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about the the rise because you know, at a young age you came
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from a, a family that had, you know, 7 kids.
8:14
I can't imagine that's a lot of kids.
8:16
Where did you fall into the order of that with seven kids?
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I was the procrastinator, so I was the youngest.
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I waited in line. Oh my gosh.
8:23
OK, All right, All right. So, so when you get to this,
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when you get to this stock market as a, as a, a guy that,
8:33
that is, you know, a new stockbroker, but you've, you've
8:37
been studying this stuff since you were 12 years old.
8:40
When you start seeing that, hey, I'm having success with this.
8:44
This is starting to be something that I can, I'm making money.
8:47
I've seen my parents work hard. What?
8:48
What's going through your mind? Yeah, so it was kind of
8:52
interesting because when I was 18, the 1st Wall Street movie
8:57
came out with Gordon Gekko and Bud Fox.
9:00
You know, as I was sitting in that theater watching that, you
9:03
know, listening to Gordon Gekko's greatest good speech, I
9:07
was just like, man, this is that is.
9:09
So for me, I'm. I'm going to be, I'm going to be
9:12
one of those guys that makes it. I'm just going to do it with
9:15
integrity. No one sets out to think, oh,
9:17
yeah, I'm going to break the law.
9:19
You think, yeah, I I can go about this.
9:21
I'm just going to work hard. I'm intelligent and I'm going to
9:25
be a success. And when I was first a broker,
9:28
the first, you know, I started in May of 94, in the first
9:32
several months, actually, that was a struggle.
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I made $5400 that year, the whole year.
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And I ate an apple for lunch and two chicken pot pies for dinner.
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It was, you know, I wanted it bad.
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And so I stuck with it, you know, kept making the 2 to 300
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phone calls a day. There's no Internet, there's no
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emails and just getting after it.
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Thankfully, you know, as I started the first four year in
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96, then everything starts to click.
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I'm opening accounts, you know, I'm starting to make money.
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I could pay my bills and it and it felt like a dream was coming
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true and I was just so busy. I was single at the time, doing
10:12
nothing but work. So was there any fear on your
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part, Sean, when you're a young guy breaking 30 years old around
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that time period and you're thinking, I, I'm good, I'm
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really, I, I would say that you probably have got a, a good
10:27
amount of head steam of confidence.
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Was there any fear of you going out on your own, starting your
10:32
own fun? Not a whole lot.
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But by that time I was married and, you know, wife was
10:38
intelligent, good looking, had a great sense of humor and the
10:42
intelligence she had. She understood what I was trying
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to do and what I wanted to achieve.
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And by the time I went out on my own, I was starting to have some
10:49
success, but nowhere near the success I had with the hedge
10:52
fund. And when I got to the hedge
10:55
fund, you know, I was making money month after month.
10:58
I didn't have a losing month. I was known as the guy who never
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lost money. And that's a, that's a pretty
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easy identity to just say this is who I am.
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And wherever I went, you know, it was, it was a good time.
11:12
People were excited to see me. I was making a money.
11:16
It was awesome. It's who I who I thought I was,
11:18
was I'm a success. Yeah.
11:21
I, I, I want to talk about that because this is something we
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talked about when we were talking on the phone is that
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somewhat becomes addictive, you know, intoxicating.
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You know that you're, you're the guy that's making things happen.
11:33
You're the guy that's making money for people.
11:35
People start talking, people start wanting to be in your fund
11:38
because that's the guy and you started going places and we're
11:44
recognized as that guy. What did that feel like to you
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as, as something you've been working for?
11:49
I think you talked about that you went to this conference and
11:53
you didn't know that people knew about your successes.
11:56
Walk us through that. Yeah, that was it was it was
12:00
tough because these are all my choices.
12:02
I'm not justifying any of this. But when you're starting to
12:07
realize, you know, people understand me as a success while
12:10
you've been working your entire life to breakthrough and become
12:13
one of those people that are recognized as a success,
12:17
especially in your industry like finance, where that's all in New
12:21
York and that's really the the mainstage.
12:23
I knew I was becoming a big deal in Denver, but there was one
12:27
particular month where you know, I'd had a string that it was
12:31
really starting to attract a lot of attention and it was
12:34
institutional investor attention by the prime brokerage I was
12:37
dealing with at the time was Bear Stearns.
12:39
They had an emerging manager book that they'd sent out to
12:43
their their global high net worth clients.
12:45
They put me in that on my returns in there, the fun
12:47
strategies in there. People were calling from all
12:51
over the world to try and get invested in my font.
12:54
And my head was growing faster than faster than anything.
13:00
And what kept me centered in those days was my wife and I had
13:05
just had our first son when I opened the hedge fund.
13:08
And each night I was making sure I was leaving the office at 6:00
13:11
so I could get home for dinner, you know, give my son a bath,
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you know, play with him a little bit, read to him until he fell
13:18
asleep, scratch his back and then collapse into bed myself.
13:22
And that kept me centered because when I got home, I
13:25
wasn't the hedge fund manager. I was just dad and it, it really
13:29
kept me balanced. And my clients were playing
13:31
along with it because I was researching and trading during
13:35
the day and they were telling their friends about me.
13:37
So I never had to market the fund.
13:40
Every everything was working out and that particular month when
13:44
I'm in that book, I go to New York for a marketing trip that
13:47
the brokerage had set up a number of meetings for me and
13:51
everybody wants it and it was incredible.
13:53
I get back to Denver full head of steam.
13:56
I'm going to expand. I get called back out to New
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York for another trip for marketing.
14:01
That time I actually got to go to a black tie affair out there
14:04
at the Waldorf. And Bono was being recognized as
14:07
the Humanitarian of the Year award.
14:10
Bono, the singer for U2 favorite band.
14:14
I get to meet him beforehand at a private party.
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Just I'm in this room with maybe two dozen other people thinking,
14:20
wow, this is, this is crazy. This is awesome.
14:23
And the next day before we leave New York, I stopped by another
14:27
major brokerage that I was working with and I walk onto
14:30
their trading floor. There's a few 100 traders in
14:32
there. You know, it's a madhouse just
14:34
like you see on TV. There's guys sitting shoulder to
14:37
shoulder screaming into phones, screaming across the room.
14:40
And my day-to-day guy brings me into the block trading area.
14:44
And I've been trading 100,000 to 1,000,000 share blocks with
14:47
these guys without ever even meeting each other.
14:49
And they're realizing who I am and their gift standing up,
14:52
giving me hugs. All the other people on the
14:55
floor like, hey, who's who the heck's that guy?
14:57
And you know, the words getting around all that's that trader
14:59
from Denver. And at the time I was 1% of the
15:03
daily volume of the ETF, the QS. So, you know, I, I was moving
15:08
some pretty serious weight. And, you know, one by one, a lot
15:11
of people are coming up shaking hands.
15:14
Some of them were giving me hugs depending on our relationship.
15:16
And it was, it was complete validation for all of the work,
15:22
all of the stress. And it's like, wow, I made it.
15:25
And everything inside of me was like, you got to hold on to this
15:29
and keep this rocket going. Yeah, because you thought you
15:32
had made it and, and, and personally, I'm sure that you're
15:35
living a lifestyle that you you would hope to live.
15:39
Yeah, it it was starting to definitely ramp up.
15:41
It was more of, you know, I was working so many hours, you know,
15:46
6:00 to 6:00 every day. And I get home and my life was
15:50
about, you know, being a dad at home.
15:52
And unfortunately, that same month, we decided to get season
15:57
tickets to the Avalanche, which is the NHL team here.
16:01
We love the sport. We love the team.
16:03
It's great action. Well, some of those games were
16:06
during the week. And suddenly, you know, I'm,
16:08
we're going out during the middle of the week and I'm
16:11
getting home at 11 O clock at night, full of adrenaline, not
16:14
falling asleep right away. And, you know, I'm showing up to
16:17
work the next day kind of tired. And, and really the main factor
16:21
was not having that balance of getting home and just being with
16:24
my son and, you know, kind of letting Summit air out of my, my
16:29
big head and letting the ego drain down like, hey, this guy
16:33
did. This little guy doesn't care
16:34
that you're a hedge fund manager was suddenly, you know, I'm
16:37
going to the the hockey games and people are, you know, I'm
16:41
seeing people I know there. And instead of getting deflated
16:44
ego, it's, you know, pumping my ego up even more.
16:47
And it just turned into a mess. And so at the end of that month,
16:50
I hadn't had many trading days. And I'm realizing at the end of
16:54
the month, I have a loss and I'm just absolutely panicked.
16:59
I don't know what's going on. You know, it was just, it was
17:03
miserable and panicked. Well, let's, let's talk about
17:06
that, Sean, because that's one of the things that that was
17:10
almost like it scared you because you had been on such a
17:14
roll where you, all you had done and and been known for is these
17:19
wins continually winning, winning.
17:22
Everybody wants in. Everybody wants in.
17:24
What are your thoughts when you, when you see that loss?
17:27
What goes through your mind about who and what and how am I
17:31
going to handle this? Yeah, there was, there was,
17:34
there was lots of panic. That's the main word I'm keeping
17:36
using. There was just anxiety oozing
17:40
out of me and thinking if I tell my clients I had a loss, I'm no
17:44
longer the guy that always makes money and they're going to pull
17:47
their money. They're going to pull my money.
17:49
My business is going to collapse.
17:51
I'm going to lose, my wife's going to leave.
17:53
I'm not going to be around my son as much.
17:55
Everything I've worked for to that point was going to
17:58
disappear. And this is all inside my head
18:00
and after everything collapsed. And I'm also justifying it by
18:04
saying I've got enough of my own money in the fund to cover this
18:08
loss and I'll just make the money back up next month.
18:11
And when you, when you start using that type of thinking,
18:15
you're gone, there's, there's no turning back.
18:19
That's that's one of those points where I wish I would have
18:21
had, you know, just somebody to talk to or they're just like,
18:26
dude, what are you doing? And normally someone has it
18:28
inside their head telling them, Hey, you're breaking the law,
18:32
you idiot. Stop.
18:33
And I was moving so fast, not really thinking about anything I
18:37
was doing other than keep this pedal floored.
18:40
You're on a route to success and you're going to get there.
18:44
Just keep this train moving, not even realizing how far it
18:48
actually come. How long does it take for when
18:52
that happens to you? You take that loss, you start
18:54
trying to cover with your own funds, and you're just trying to
18:59
cover, and then you've got to double up.
19:00
Whatever you did, you know this month you've got to make double
19:03
what you did because you got to cover and make more.
19:06
How long did that go before the nightmare landed on you that you
19:11
knew that something was going to happen?
19:14
Yeah. So that was there was a number
19:16
of things that all were going into that as well.
19:18
So just like you said, I'm going to make this back next month,
19:23
you not only have to make that month's profit, but you have to
19:26
make up last month's loss. You're ever the trading strategy
19:30
that got you there. Now all of a sudden is not going
19:32
to work because you just doubled what you have to do Terrible.
19:38
And so during that time, I also had an institution that wanted
19:42
me to manage some of their money and they wanted me to manage
19:46
that so that they're getting the statements directly.
19:48
And so I'm going to be trading for them as well with the hedge
19:51
fund allocating trades. And that worked out great.
19:54
That stayed for three years. I was making them money month
19:58
after month and they're getting the daily statement from the
20:01
brokerage. So this has given me fuel to
20:04
think, well, I'm doing it for them, so I'll be able to get
20:07
back on track and do it for the fund.
20:10
Unfortunately for the fund, I've gotten away from the strategy
20:13
that got me there and I'm trying to take, you know, bigger,
20:16
bigger trades. I'm holding trades overnight.
20:19
All of a sudden I'm holding trades for days at a time
20:22
instead of just, you know, 1020 minutes.
20:24
And it was just, it was a ball of mess and none of it.
20:29
It was all in my head thinking, yeah, I can make this work
20:32
because I'm looking at the information I need, you know, of
20:37
this other fund that I'm managing profitably.
20:39
I'm looking at that as proof that I could turn this other
20:42
fund around and you're not going to do it.
20:44
And so eventually, with that other fund, that eventually
20:47
comes to an end after about three years.
20:50
And that's actually what I was living on at the time, was the
20:53
income from that fund. And I realized at that point,
20:57
wow, what the heck's going to happen if I can't turn around,
21:00
You know, my hedge fund. And I realized, you know, I had
21:03
a life insurance plan that I'd taken out several years before
21:06
that that even paid off the event of a suicide as long as
21:10
there was more than three years after the time you take it out.
21:14
And, you know, at first, you know, I didn't, I didn't think a
21:17
whole lot about it. But as I'm starting to get more
21:20
desperate, I'm realizing, well, how the heck am I going to take
21:22
care of my family if I can't turn this around?
21:24
Because at that point I'm realizing I'm going to prison if
21:27
I get caught and I'm like, well, then I won't be able to take
21:32
care of my family. I'll just have to use this life
21:35
insurance plan. I'm going to have to take my own
21:37
life and take care of my family. I mean, that's that's how it's
21:41
screwy. My thought process got thinking,
21:44
Hey, this is actually a viable alternative.
21:47
Not realizing, you know, the, the massive hole I'm going to
21:51
leave in my kids heart, you know, just the destruction I'm
21:55
leaving for my wife, you know, is it was horrible.
21:58
And that's, that's how I lived for a while.
22:01
Just every day getting up thinking, hey, I got to go in
22:04
and make this work. Operating from a place of panic.
22:10
Yeah, you were thinking, I've got to think this work or your
22:12
alternative was, if it doesn't, I'm going to use this life
22:15
insurance policy, which is crazy how you can get to a rock bottom
22:19
place like that. And that could be a rational
22:21
thought that makes sense to you. But there's so many of us that
22:24
have been at that rock bottom moment where we actually do
22:28
contemplate that as making sense.
22:31
Do they just when when this arrives on you, Sean, do they
22:36
just show up at your door? How does how does it all come to
22:40
to a a point? Yeah, that was that was April of
22:45
2010. I've got eight people working
22:49
for me. We're all sitting around the
22:50
trading desk. It's the middle of the trading
22:53
day. We're trading stocks back and
22:56
forth, yelling back information. And on the caller ID, it says
23:02
it's the SEC on the phone, which is the Securities and Exchange
23:05
Commission. It's the regulator for, you
23:08
know, the investment industry. And I'm realizing this is this
23:12
is the call I've been dreading. This is it.
23:15
And it's, you know, obviously they're not calling to
23:17
congratulate me on being a great guy.
23:20
So before I even pick up the phone, I'm realizing there's a
23:24
big chance that I'm, I'm going to be dead soon.
23:27
And sure enough, you know, they're talking, they're asking
23:31
me about my business, asking me about my clients now, the money
23:36
who I trade through. And you know, we're on the phone
23:38
for maybe 10-15 minutes and got off the phone.
23:42
They didn't want anything at that time.
23:44
They're just like, all right, well, we really appreciate you
23:46
answering our questions and you have a good day.
23:48
I'm thinking, all right, I'm evidently just solved that
23:51
problem. And I went back to trading like
23:54
nothing was going on, didn't even miss a beat.
23:57
And the next day, phone caller IDICC, this is probably going to
24:03
be a problem. And they wanted to see the
24:05
statements. They wanted to actually see the
24:07
statements from brokerage. And I realize this is this is
24:11
bad news. And they said you got a week to
24:13
give us these or we'll subpoena the documents.
24:17
And I went home that weekend knowing going to I'm not going
24:20
to be alive next weekend. You know, the Wednesday comes,
24:22
the Wednesday night I told everybody at work, hey, I'm not
24:25
feeling great, just take the rest of the week off.
24:27
And that was that. I went in the next day and I
24:29
dropped my kids off at school, which I never did because I was
24:33
always at work by 6:00 AM that particular day, you know, I did
24:37
and hugged him goodbye. Got to the office, you know, got
24:41
tied up some loose ends and I sent out an e-mail to all my
24:44
clients and some friends that was scheduled to go out, you
24:47
know, probably about 20-30 minutes away from that time,
24:51
thinking I'd already be gone, you know, admitting to
24:54
everything I did. And I left, you know, a note on
24:57
my desk along with a thumb drive for the SEC.
25:00
Hey, this is what happened. This is what I did.
25:02
No one else knew about this. This is all on me.
25:06
I'm beyond sorry. I'm so sorry and walked across
25:12
the street to the parking garage.
25:13
It was about 5 stories high. Just I'm looking out over the
25:17
city and I go man, God, some life.
25:19
And I say that out loud sarcastically.
25:22
And I jump up on the ledge trying to immediately just lean
25:25
forward and ahead on these goofy Ferragamo shoes with a square
25:29
trip, square tiptoe, which I don't even like these shoes so I
25:33
don't even know why I wore them that day.
25:34
But I'm leaning out over the ledge and no matter how far out
25:39
I'm leaning, these stupid shoes would not let me lean far enough
25:44
out to actually fall off this ledge.
25:47
I'm like, this is nuts. And I look up and there's a bus
25:50
coming down the street. I'm like, well, surely I can't
25:54
jump in front of this bus. That's that's crazy.
25:56
I'm not going to wreck these people's day.
25:57
I'll just wait for it to pass and then I'll get back up on the
26:00
ledge. And you know, in this time
26:03
frame, you know, that statement got some life like this is
26:06
anybody's fault besides mine. It actually clicked in my head.
26:11
Dude, you, you did this. These are all your choices.
26:14
This is no one else's fault except yours.
26:17
This is this is you. You're accountable for this.
26:20
And you know, I'm disgusted. I'm even more disgusted with
26:23
myself. I hopped back up on the ledge.
26:25
The bus is gone by this time. The part of town that my office
26:29
was in, it's a really, really nice area of Denver.
26:33
And there's already police sirens, fire truck sirens.
26:38
They're all surrounding the building.
26:39
There's a police car already pulling up behind me on the
26:42
parking garage. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is
26:44
crazy. Fire truck.
26:47
You know, all the firemen are getting out there.
26:48
They've set up the trampoline underneath.
26:51
I've got nowhere to go. And I realize I'm not even going
26:55
to be able to jump off this building because these guys,
26:58
they're going to catch me. And, you know, I decide right
27:03
then and there I'm, you know, obviously not going to die right
27:07
now. And I'm not a hedge fund manager
27:09
anymore. I'm going to have to make some
27:12
huge changes. And it's going to happen behind
27:15
prison walls. Wow.
27:16
So what happens next, Sean? They put, I guess the guys pull
27:19
you down from there. They did.
27:21
They arrest you at the parking garage.
27:25
So, you know, that that was the first cop that showed up behind
27:29
me. I really have to hand it to him.
27:31
He he was just talking to me, asking me, hey, what's going on?
27:34
And I'm realizing the fireman below me.
27:38
And so I just actually sit down on the ledge at that point and
27:41
we're just talking through it. And, you know, I'm telling him
27:44
just, you know, surface level stuff, asking me.
27:48
He's asking me what what got you here?
27:50
What's going on? Can't be that bad.
27:53
And I told him, Hey, my firm's blowing up.
27:55
You know, my life is over, dude, your, your life's not over.
28:00
I mean, you've got kids to live for.
28:02
Think about them. And you know, I had been during
28:06
the last couple seconds of that and I'm like, jeez, I, I can't
28:10
leave my kids like this. They're, I mean, that hole is
28:12
never going to fill in their heart.
28:14
And, you know, thankfully I came to the conclusion that my kids
28:18
are going to walk me around even if I'm broke, they're going to
28:21
rather have me alive and broke rather than an insurance check
28:25
and this massive hole in their heart.
28:26
And that was, that was really the first time in several years
28:31
that I actually put integrity ahead of any other choice,
28:35
especially success. Because, you know, up until that
28:39
point, when I was at that corner, that intersection of
28:42
success and integrity, I was unfortunately choosing success.
28:48
I was trying to keep that identity alive.
28:49
And it almost killed me. And thankfully, you know that
28:53
just thinking of my sons, it kept me alive and gave me a
28:56
chance to actually correct those character traits that got me to
29:00
that point. What was the thing that happened
29:02
next, Shawn, from from that moment there on the parking
29:04
garage? How long does it take you to get
29:07
to the point where you're indicted?
29:09
Did you go to trial? So I had to go when you're when
29:13
you stand on top of a building like that, you typically have to
29:15
go to a hospital and stay a few days to make sure you're, you
29:19
know, going to be OK and you're not going to hurt yourself or
29:21
anybody else. And so.
29:22
Not going to do that again. Yeah, that three day period was
29:26
kind of tough, but it was also like kind of the where the
29:29
lights started getting brighter again.
29:30
Like, hey, there's a future without being a hedge fund
29:33
manager. You still can make this some
29:36
sort of life, but you have to make some major changes because
29:39
this guy, I did not want to live with that guy anymore.
29:42
I did not want to be that guy anymore.
29:44
I was disgusted with myself. And so I was actually
29:48
investigated for several months after that, you know, every day
29:52
thinking I was going to be arrested any day.
29:54
But you know, I was, I was cooperating as much as I
29:59
possibly could with the DA's office, with the investigation.
30:02
Just, you know, it was the only thing that was kind of soothing
30:07
my guilt of, you know, I've I've got to somehow make this as
30:10
right as possible. And you know it, it was tough.
30:13
And you mentioned about the sentence, you know, I did 14
30:16
years, but originally the DA office offered me a 60 year plea
30:21
deal and I was like, wow, this is that'd be a long time to do.
30:25
I was fourty 2 years at the time, fourty 2 years old at the
30:27
time. And eventually, you know, we
30:29
sell settled on a fourty year number, but it was actually
30:33
anywhere from leaving it up to the judge, anywhere from
30:36
probation to 40 years. And I was thinking with the
30:39
amount of cooperation I did, you know, taking accountability, you
30:44
know, here I am, I'm going to change.
30:48
I'm probably not going to do 40 years.
30:50
And unfortunately, when I went to sentencing six months later,
30:55
he he gave me the full, full 40 years.
30:58
Somebody in Colorado, you have a parole eligibility date for
31:02
nonviolent offenders. So it's half of that, you know,
31:05
20 year parole eligibility. If you don't get any write ups,
31:09
you know, it takes another five years off that and you can do
31:12
programs, you know, and get a couple more months.
31:14
And so as I'm getting closer to the end of my sentence, CU
31:18
Denver brought in his prison education program.
31:21
It was a two year program, nothing but communication
31:25
classes. And it was turbocharged all of
31:28
the growth I'd already been doing from reading hundreds of
31:30
books, You know, I got to train dogs, which taught me a lot more
31:34
about compassion and empathy that, you know, I was practicing
31:37
in my prior life and college education.
31:40
Just turbocharged all of that growth and synthesized all the
31:44
thoughts, all the growth. Yeah.
31:47
Sean, I want to talk about the whole prison experience because
31:51
you know, there's a lot that's heavy.
31:54
I mean, you're looking at 40 years even though that you can
31:58
look at it as OK, then that calves it and that's 20 and then
32:01
five years of good this and that's 15.
32:03
That's still a lot of time when you went into prison.
32:07
In fact, let's take a break there because I want to talk
32:09
about how you handled and ate, ate that elephant that time and
32:14
then how you then turbocharged yourself on how you wanted to
32:18
get out. So we'll take a break here.
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world's first support group devoted to people navigating the
32:59
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33:02
I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group, and I can tell
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For more information, go to prisonist.org.
33:19
That's Prisonist dot org. OK, so Sean, you go in and
33:24
there's got to be a lot of things that between you walking
33:28
in. I, I, I'm assuming your personal
33:30
life is kind of up in in the air.
33:34
Your wife probably didn't know anything about what was going
33:36
on, but she certainly know about it.
33:38
Once this the investigation started and then you got
33:41
sentenced, what were you thinking about how you were
33:45
going to do this unknown world of walking into of a world that
33:49
you never expected to be in? Right.
33:52
Yeah, it was, it was quite a quite a mind adjustment for
33:56
sure. And yeah, it was at that point,
33:58
you know, my wife, her entire world had changed upside down.
34:02
You know, we knew we were getting divorced at that point.
34:04
She was going to have to start over.
34:05
And you know, it was it was tragic what happened in her life
34:09
because she had a really nice life going.
34:12
You know, she was healthy, great mom to our kids.
34:14
And, you know, her world turned upside down and she had to
34:19
figure out how to support the kids right off the bat.
34:21
And, you know, none of this would have happened.
34:24
None of my growth could have happened if she didn't be the
34:29
person she actually was because she she took complete control of
34:33
that, drove that vehicle, kept the kids safe, raised them.
34:37
It was awesome. So going to prison, you know,
34:41
I'm knowing I'm going in. You know, my case was all over
34:45
the press. I didn't know what to expect
34:48
when I got there. And I'm showing up as a
34:50
middle-aged white guy with glasses.
34:52
Am I going to be looked on as, you know, someone who's got a
34:55
crime that you won't, you don't want to be known for in prison
34:58
like a sex crime or something like that?
35:00
Is there going to be violence or thrown at me before they even
35:03
asked me what I've done? You have no idea what's going
35:07
on. And at that point, you know, I,
35:10
I still had in the back of my head, you know, if someone, you
35:12
know, tries to take my life, well, well, prisons over and
35:16
it's, I'm not going to have to do that 40 year sentence.
35:18
So great. And you know, but I also knew,
35:22
you know, I, I got into the finance industry.
35:24
Not saying that's the same thing as, you know, going to prison,
35:27
but there's a lot of unknowns there.
35:29
And I had the confidence to know, you know, I got into that
35:32
industry. You know, I experienced some
35:34
success with that. You know, when I get into
35:37
prison, I'm just going to be myself.
35:40
You know, I played sports my whole life.
35:43
You, you're going to be fine. Just get in there, give respect,
35:48
get respect, and you're going to be fine.
35:51
And when I got there, sure enough, a bunch of people
35:54
already know who I was because of the news, the newspapers.
35:58
And it was kind of, it was almost like one of those things
36:01
like, all right, well, that's off the table because people
36:04
already know who I am. And then when you show up and
36:06
you're 65, you kind of stand out and people are like, oh, well,
36:09
that's that guy who did that. And, you know, it spreads.
36:13
And then all of a sudden it's a conversation piece.
36:16
Hey, I heard you were in the stock market.
36:19
Hey, let's talk about that. You know, it's something
36:21
interesting to talk about. I was always respectful, you
36:25
know, got respect. And that's that was the start of
36:30
it. And so, you know, we, we get
36:33
that spectacle from TV like, you know, prison is, you know, this
36:37
crazy place full of violence and just nothing but thugs.
36:40
It's really not like that for everybody.
36:43
I mean, as far as everybody there is not, is not a thug.
36:46
Right. I want to talk to you too, Sean,
36:48
about you talked about the dog program because when I was at
36:51
Leavenworth, they did do the dog program, but it was a year after
36:55
I left and I know some guys that got involved in that and it, it,
36:59
it was so helpful to them. How did that come to you?
37:02
Man, what a break that was. Being a guy that prepares for
37:07
things before I even surrendered, I had looked to see
37:11
like what type of possible jobs there were at the different
37:13
facilities and I saw it. There was a canine behavior
37:17
modification program where the dog lives with you in your cell
37:21
and you train this dog to be a better dog.
37:26
And it was amazing. When I got to the facility, I
37:28
saw dogs and I was like, wow, that's this is really a thing.
37:32
I got to know all the different dog trainers.
37:35
You know, I asked them about the program and everybody wanted to
37:39
do that job because you got to be around a dog.
37:41
You've got a dog. And it was, you know, you got a
37:44
little bit more money than, you know, the normal prison pay.
37:48
And the main thing was that program taught me compassion
37:52
more than anything because when the dogs came in, these dogs
37:57
were there because they're on their last chance.
37:59
The people that owned them, you know, the dog had ate the couch
38:03
or ripped down the drapes. I had one dog that ate the cat,
38:08
killed their cat. And it wasn't even like at the
38:11
top of the lift of the things that did wrong.
38:13
It's like, what is up with this dog?
38:16
And so you're immediately bonding with this dog because
38:19
it's like, hey, I'm on my last chance too.
38:21
I'm going to get you through this.
38:22
And you did. You bonded with this dog and you
38:26
had it usually for four weeks. And the dog went home completely
38:30
changed. The people would write you back
38:31
a letter saying thanks for these changes and you felt like you
38:34
were doing something. And, and it was good for the
38:37
facility as well because the staff and the incarcerated
38:42
individuals alike, everybody benefited from that dog being
38:45
there because the dogs love being petted and everybody
38:48
wanted to pet the dog. It gave them 60 seconds of
38:51
mental release just, you know, nice peaceful interaction, and
38:57
it was awesome to bring that type of happiness to the other
38:59
people there. How did you, because your kids
39:02
were, I'm not sure what ages they were, How did you stay
39:06
present in their lives and that time period that you were
39:09
dealing with? You know, they were, they were
39:11
ten and six when I went in and again, the same thing as their
39:16
mom. Their life turned completely
39:17
upside down. I was a very connected dad.
39:19
I was involved in their lives and suddenly I wasn't and I
39:23
wasn't there. And that's that was brutal.
39:27
And there was out of all the pain and remorse I had, you
39:31
know, I was, I was very remorseful for the crime I
39:34
committed. I was remorseful for the the
39:38
line I did to my wife and to put her in that opposition.
39:42
But just how their world turned upside down, nothing compares to
39:46
that. Nobody suffered more than my two
39:48
sons and their mom thankfully understood the relationship I
39:53
had with them, knew that I still needed to be involved in their
39:57
lives. And so she always made sure when
39:59
I called to put them on the phone and to keep building that
40:03
relationship and really repair that relationship.
40:06
So the crazy thing is, you know, I was transparent, you know, age
40:12
appropriate, wise, everything I did, you know, here's the
40:14
choices I made. This is what I was thinking.
40:17
This was the stupidity of it. You know, you got to be careful
40:20
of justifying things. Always be mindful of integrity
40:24
and who you are as a person. You know, how you communicate
40:27
with people, how transparent are you?
40:29
Be authentic. All of all of those things kept
40:32
rebuilding that foundation. And since that relationship had
40:36
to take place over the phone, you know, I really had to listen
40:40
for what they were saying. There was no, you know, just.
40:43
Oh, yeah, OK, cool. It was.
40:45
I had to really be present, you know, to understand what they
40:48
were saying. And, you know, slowly but surely
40:51
it started to rebuild and it actually got stronger.
40:53
And that was just as my youngest son was starting college.
40:58
You know, he got to his college dorm and I called him one night
41:01
and it was the same time that I was starting to see you.
41:04
Denver program. And so we kind of got to bond
41:07
over starting college again at the same time.
41:10
And I was sharing everything that happened in my life when I
41:13
was 18 years old, you know, going to parties, you know,
41:16
dating girls. Here's what you're going to go
41:18
through. Here's what you're thinking.
41:19
Here's what you're thinking with the parties school.
41:22
Here's what I did right. Here's what I did wrong.
41:25
Here's what I wish I would have done.
41:26
Here's how I would correct it. And so it kind of gave him the
41:29
benefit of knowing his dad screwed up and I was being
41:33
transparent about it. And so I kind of gave them a
41:35
little bit of a buffer zone, like a safety net.
41:38
Well, I'm probably not going to screw up that bad.
41:40
And so our conversations and our relationships were just so
41:45
transparent and authentic that, you know, we can help each other
41:49
through a lot of stuff because there was no BS in any of those
41:52
conversations. It was real and being in a
41:55
present setting, I was around him.
41:58
Yeah, I think that's really something and and the fact that
42:00
you started your college courses when he was going into that same
42:05
world and you were both doing that together as father and son.
42:09
Talk a little bit about that, getting able to take these
42:12
college courses in prison because I know there's a lot of
42:16
different places that I know Washu does that here in Saint
42:18
Louis. What was that like for you?
42:20
It was amazing. So when I got to prison, one of
42:23
the things, one of the goals I had was to complete some sort of
42:27
college program. I didn't want to waste that
42:29
time. And that was one of the definite
42:31
goals I had. But everywhere I looked,
42:33
everybody I asked, there was no college classes available at
42:37
that time. And the only way to do it was
42:39
through correspondence courses. But you had to pay for those.
42:42
And all of my money was wrapped up in the hedge fund, and all of
42:47
that was frozen and taken away. It was seized.
42:50
So I had no money to take these college courses and it was
42:53
really frustrating. And so when I saw a flyer that
42:57
was actually up on the wall in our sell house, I was already
43:00
approved to move to a lower custody facility to go to their
43:05
dog program and to start transitioning out to lower
43:08
custody places. And I saw how the flyer up
43:11
offering this program from see Denver and it just stopped me
43:15
dead in my tracks. And I started thinking about it
43:17
and it said it was a two year program.
43:19
It's like, man, I could either go to this lower custody
43:22
facility where, you know, the security is eased up, you have
43:25
more movement, you know, more freedoms, or, you know, I could
43:29
get in this college program. And, you know, I'm, I really had
43:32
a heart to heart with myself and I really wanted that education.
43:37
And so I told my my dog boss, hey, I don't want to do that
43:41
transfer anymore. I'm going to stay here.
43:43
I'll train dogs while I'm in this college program.
43:46
She was like, all right, great. I'm glad you're staying here.
43:48
And my first dog, I brought him to the school with me or trained
43:52
him in one of the commands we used to train the dogs was stay.
43:55
And so I had the dog on the downstate during class and on
43:59
the break, I'd take him outside so he could relieve himself and
44:01
I bring it back in and he'd go to sleep.
44:05
It was cool. But that first class, you know,
44:09
is Doctor Boyce, Doctor Benjamin Boyce.
44:11
And it was crazy, the first assignment we had.
44:14
I get the assignment back and this was a couple weeks into the
44:17
class and, you know, I'm thinking this is a prison
44:20
program. You know, I'm pretty intelligent
44:23
guy. You know, I could just, you
44:25
know, write this down, write it straight on the paper.
44:27
No draft, no outline, straight on the paper.
44:30
Turn. Well, Doctor Boyce did not roll
44:34
like that. He gave me a 75%.
44:37
And I'm sitting in the class going, oh wow, this is not a
44:41
prison program. This is actually ACU Denver
44:43
program. This is college.
44:46
And I realized right then and there I'm going to give my all
44:50
to this program and I'm going to quit my dog job to do it.
44:53
And I'm going to do nothing but be a college student.
44:57
And thankfully the facility allowed me to do that.
44:59
And I trained that dog for the rest of the month, you know,
45:03
turned it in. I was sad to be leaving the job,
45:05
but just ecstatic to be able to concentrate on getting that
45:09
education. And I, I went after it with
45:12
everything and it gave me everything I was putting back
45:15
into it. It gave me back in multiple just
45:18
because of all the self growth that I had done to that point.
45:23
Like I said before that that college education, it
45:26
turbocharged that growth because I could feel, I could physically
45:31
feel myself growing as a person. All of the integrity, the
45:36
humility, the authenticity that I was trying to be use every
45:40
single day. I had to use that all the time
45:43
in school because of everything that was required.
45:47
And it was. It was just an amazing, amazing
45:50
process. Well, what a turn around from
45:53
the guy that was standing on the parking garage with the square
45:56
toe shoes to then just be recharged while you're in prison
46:01
to find this new energy and confidence and belief in
46:05
yourself that that you know, this is me and what's still out
46:09
there. When Sean, when it started
46:11
getting close for you, how, what was the process of you getting
46:15
out? How does, how did the parole
46:17
work? How did all that happen for you?
46:20
Yeah. So that was as we're going
46:22
through the college, there was a few of us going through those
46:25
same changes and realizing how big of changes that were going
46:28
on inside of us. And we started talking about,
46:31
you know, the conversations we're having with our family on
46:33
the phone, they're recognizing our conversations are completely
46:38
different. They're recognizing their spirit
46:40
we have inside ourselves, the energy, the excitement, and
46:43
they're complimenting us back, like, hey, you've actually
46:46
changed. You're talking about different
46:48
things. Your mindset's different.
46:50
You're a better person. And the people around us that
46:55
are in the classes, we're talking to him about this.
46:57
And everybody admitted to going through that same thing.
47:00
Yeah, my family's recognizing those exact same things.
47:03
And so when new students were starting to get into our program
47:06
and the other programs, we were telling them, hey, this is
47:10
what's going to happen. But you also are blessed with,
47:14
you know, getting to use these laptops while you're over in the
47:16
school. So you can't screw this up using
47:19
these laptops for anything else other than school.
47:23
Otherwise they'll take them away from us and we'll have to hand
47:25
write our homework. You know, we're, we're doing
47:27
real college homework. You don't want to have to write
47:30
your homework. And so we're protecting that,
47:34
that facility, the education with everything we have.
47:37
And as we're going along, there's rumors that there's a
47:42
House bill coming up in the Colorado legislature that
47:45
they're going to take a year off your sentence if you're a
47:49
nonviolent offender. They're going to take a year off
47:52
your sentence if you complete an associate's degree, and they'll
47:55
take another year off your sentence if you complete a
47:57
bachelor's degree and more time if you get an MBA.
48:02
I'm getting close enough where it's like, wow, if I get this
48:05
associate's degree, I would immediately be eligible for a
48:08
halfway house. So I'm thinking, wow, I need to
48:13
get these classes done to complete this.
48:16
So when this bill is actually passed and signed, I can benefit
48:20
from this and you know, get out back into the world, complete my
48:23
bachelor's when I get out and start this over.
48:26
And so couple months later, you know, I passed, you know, in the
48:30
state, the State House and the governor passed it.
48:32
And I was the first person to benefit from it to actually get
48:35
a year taken off my sentence and to be immediately eligible for
48:40
that release. And thankfully, you know, I
48:43
passed the halfway acceptance and got out.
48:47
And when I got to the halfway house, I was excited.
48:49
But as I was leaving the facility for the prison, I was
48:53
also like, Oh my gosh, I've done all these changes and a lot of
48:57
it's been because of the school education.
48:59
How am I going to complete this when I get out?
49:01
And so I'm taking that 2 hour bus ride back to Denver, not
49:05
knowing how I'm going to complete my degree, but knowing
49:09
it's something I have to do as part of just living because it's
49:13
that big of a part of me. And when I got out, Doctor
49:16
Harnett from CU Denver, he called me and said, hey, I want
49:20
you to come take a tour the, the campus.
49:22
I want you down here. And so I, I get a pass, I get
49:26
down there and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this, I, I've got to
49:31
figure out how to get on this campus.
49:33
And he goes, well, we're going to get you enrolled.
49:34
Dr. Hartnett, the, the deadline pass for enrollment 2 weeks ago.
49:38
I think I missed this semester. No, that's no, we're going to
49:42
get you enrolled. And the school started a few
49:45
days after that and I was enrolled and I was in four
49:48
communication classes right off the bat, taking a full load.
49:52
The halfway house allowed me to do that for my job.
49:55
They said as long as you stay on the campus and you don't give us
49:57
any reason not to trust you, you can do that for your job.
50:01
And that's what I did. Well, it shot for like, you've
50:04
been in prison for 14 years. You roll out into this situation
50:10
where you're on a college campus.
50:11
What in the world were you thinking in your mind with all
50:15
this sensory overload of being out of prison?
50:17
What was that like for you? Yeah, that that dawned on me
50:21
too, as I'm taking the train ride down there like, well,
50:24
that's cool. You're going to be on this
50:26
college campus. What an opportunity.
50:29
But, you know, I'm 56 years old at that time.
50:33
I'm 65, you know, I'm, I'm bald. I'm going to, you know, well,
50:38
I'm, I'm still thinking, well, I'll just blend in.
50:40
You know, I'll be quiet in class.
50:42
You know, I'm just going to get my, my degree Incognito is what
50:46
I called it. And I show the first
50:49
communication class and it's with Doctor Boyce, the same
50:52
professor I had when I was inside.
50:53
And I'm looking at, you know, the syllabus, you know, the
50:56
first few minutes of class. And I see in like week 6,
51:01
there's this article called Educated Incarcerated
51:04
Individuals, An easy choice. Well, I actually co-authored
51:09
that article with one of my students when I was inside and
51:12
we it was published and I'm panicking and I'm like, Oh my
51:16
God, everybody's going to know I was in prison.
51:19
And I talked to him after class and he goes, Oh yeah, I wanted
51:22
to talk to you about that. And, you know, would you mind
51:25
addressing the class that we can talk about your experience?
51:29
Are you crazy? I'm trying to remain Incognito.
51:32
And he goes, no, Sean, that's that's not going to happen.
51:35
You're 65. You're decades older than
51:37
everybody. And even on the first day of
51:39
class, you're already speaking up in the discussions.
51:43
There's no way people are not going to ask you questions.
51:46
You may as well just embrace this.
51:48
And thankfully, you know, there was a student that sat behind me
51:52
and she was constantly, and she had thrown out Deserto, which is
51:56
a French philosopher. And I knew that was one of
51:59
Doctor Boyce's favorite. And I was asking her afterwards
52:02
in the next class. I was like, hey, that's kind of
52:04
interesting. You mentioned Deserto and I
52:07
think he even threw in Michael Foucault.
52:09
What's have you taken his classes before or something?
52:13
He shows, oh, yeah, this is my 4th class I've taken.
52:16
It's like, hey, same here. I've, I've taken a bunch of his
52:18
classes too. And she's like, hold on a
52:20
second. This is where I've been doing
52:22
all my communication classes and you've taken all these classes.
52:26
How have I not met you before? I would have remembered you.
52:29
I mean, you're she was trying to be as nice as possible.
52:32
She goes. You're ball.
52:34
I was kind of like, I may as well just come clean.
52:37
And, you know, I told her and she was completely cool and
52:41
accepting about it. And she goes, hold on a second.
52:43
She gets her laptop out and within like 15 seconds, she
52:47
pulled up the article and she goes, this is you.
52:50
And I was like, how? How did you pull that up
52:53
already? She goes, he uses this in all
52:55
his classes, and he talks about the prison education program.
53:00
All right, cool. So the road was kind of like
53:03
paved a little bit. And by the time that weak sex
53:07
will have rolled around to actually, you know, talk to the
53:09
class about it, you know, I'd already told several of the
53:13
students, but I was also comfortable enough with the rest
53:16
of the students to get up and, you know, just authentically
53:19
talk to him about it. And there was no, there was no
53:23
pushback whatsoever. And, you know, they, they saw I
53:26
had, you know, real communication.
53:28
You know, I took accountability, told him about the growth, told
53:32
him about the prison education program.
53:34
And they asked some good questions, some over more hard
53:38
hitting, some of them wanted to know what I was thinking when I
53:41
was breaking the law. And you just share the truth.
53:46
And it was all part of the growth and helping the prison
53:50
education program grow, you know, just bringing positive
53:53
attention to it. Wow, what a great story.
53:56
And and I I think there is. So much in what you all you,
53:59
you, you shared a whole lot right there, Sean.
54:01
And it is, I think so freeing to be able to stand out in front of
54:08
your story. You know, if you don't own your
54:10
story, somebody else does. And what they what they see and
54:14
they own is whatever is that narrative is that's out there.
54:17
But being able to to Share your story, how it happened, what you
54:21
felt like when the choices came, How did that come about?
54:25
All of a sudden people can start relating.
54:29
Nobody lives a perfect life taking accountability and and
54:32
bringing people along to understand maybe helping someone
54:36
when you know they get stuck in the same type of situation.
54:39
And this is where Sean hit his fork in the road.
54:41
All of those things are are freeing to somebody.
54:44
That's because there there is the other feeling of if you're
54:47
an ex felon and you walk into a room, you're always wondering,
54:51
well, I wonder if he knows. I wonder if she knows if you
54:53
show, if you're, if you're standing out in front and owning
54:56
your story, then there's a different type of confidence
55:00
that you share with yourself that I'm, I'm not hiding
55:02
anything. I'm just me.
55:04
This is me, like me, don't like me, this is me.
55:07
And that's, that's what you've been able to do.
55:09
And then I think was that kind of the beginning of you feeling
55:13
like, hey, I ought to kind of do a little bit more of this
55:15
speaking stuff that the confidence you met?
55:19
That you just mentioned that was really, that was a big part of
55:24
it because I was really disgusted with what I did.
55:28
But when I first got to prison, you know, there was, there was a
55:31
lot of people that were just amazed, you know, the dollar
55:34
amounts being thrown around and they want to talk about that and
55:37
glorify that. And I, I wouldn't take part.
55:40
I was just like, no, I'm, I'm telling you, I'm, I'm disgusted
55:44
with what I did. I'm here to fix the character
55:46
traits that put me here. I've I've got to change that.
55:50
And you know, that combined with the fact that, you know, the the
55:54
case was in the media, I was kind of like on a stage.
55:57
And when I was saying I was going to make the changes, now
56:01
all of a sudden you actually have to make the changes because
56:05
you said you're going to, and if you don't, people are going to
56:07
be constantly putting you on blast while you're in the
56:10
facility. Like, Hey, you said you're going
56:13
to change. That doesn't look like change.
56:14
And so you're, you're starting to have to be accountable all
56:18
the time to people who are world class BS detectors because
56:23
they've manipulated people their entire life.
56:25
They know exactly what it looks like when you're manipulating
56:28
their BS and somebody, And so they'll call you on it.
56:31
And some of these guys, you don't want them to call you on
56:33
anything because they're, they're dangerous people.
56:37
So during that time frame, while I'm making those changes, I'm
56:41
realizing, you know, there, there's, there's people around
56:44
me asking me, Hey, how are you doing this?
56:46
I'm seeing you're at peace, you're always reading.
56:49
What are you reading? And I'm starting to share a lot
56:52
of those books, you know, burn. Brené Brown was just so
56:57
influential with all of her research that she shared in
57:00
their books. And that research started
57:02
because of the struggles she had earlier in life.
57:05
And she wanted to know how to just deal with those.
57:08
And she shared that struggle. And I knew it was helping me.
57:11
So it had to be helping other people because she has like 5
57:15
best selling books. So that is actually meaningful
57:19
stuff. And then there was another
57:21
author of Jerry Kalana who wrote Reboot, same thing.
57:24
A lot of struggles earlier in life shared the struggles, how
57:27
he dealt with it, how he grew from it, and he was sharing with
57:32
other people. And I was like, hey, this is
57:34
actually what you're supposed to do when you're learning from
57:36
these struggles and these lessons.
57:38
You have to share it. And it gave me a platform to
57:41
share it when I was in stock. So the other thing that I
57:44
thought was interesting too. Sean is that, you know, you did
57:46
really well at school. I mean, summa cum laude, that's
57:49
that's the top of the the heap. And but then you you got the
57:53
opportunity to serve on the University of Colorado Denver
57:56
Prison Education Program Advisory Board.
58:00
Tell me a little bit about what that what?
58:02
What all does that do? Yeah, so I get to share my.
58:05
Perspective as somebody who's been a student inside, but also
58:10
see how, you know, the university program works on the
58:13
outside. And by being involved in that, I
58:17
can see what the professors are talking about.
58:19
I can see what the administration is talking about,
58:22
and I know what the incarcerated students are talking about and
58:25
what they need and what they want.
58:27
You know how the program could be delivered to them because
58:30
technology is a concern. Security is always a concern.
58:34
That's always the overwhelming concern for the facilities
58:40
saying, hey, this is what we need to keep in mind here.
58:42
This is what they're going to be saying here.
58:43
And that's turned into actually a coalition now.
58:47
It's called CCHAP, which is Coalition of Colorado Higher
58:51
Education Prison Programs, and that's a coalition of all of the
58:57
universities in Colorado that deliver college education to
59:03
incarcerated students. And there's also nonprofit
59:06
organizations like the Alliance of Higher Education Prisons.
59:11
The DOC is involved by the state education department is
59:15
involved, and there's a reentry facility or a reentry program
59:18
here in Denver called EMERGE. They're also involved.
59:21
So all of these different spokes on the wheel that make sure this
59:25
college education happens, they're all at the table that we
59:29
meet once a month to make sure this gets delivered as
59:32
efficiently as possible. And one of the most meaningful
59:36
things I've done in my life this last summer, I got to
59:39
participate in a research project where a few of us
59:43
interviewed the successful programs around the country that
59:46
have delivered higher education inside prisons, states like New
59:50
Jersey of Florida, Maine, Michigan, even all of the
59:55
universities inside those States and Georgetown's another one
59:59
just incredible program talking to them.
1:00:01
Hey, what did you do right? What would you change?
1:00:04
What do you think needs to happen in the future?
1:00:06
How does this how does this work better asking them questions all
1:00:11
of that and we're. Writing the final report now
1:00:14
that's actually going to be unveiled at a national
1:00:16
conference in April. It's the N chef conference
1:00:20
that's put on by the alliance in Cleveland and we're really
1:00:24
excited to, you know, deliver that what we found and I'll
1:00:27
share that with the rest of the country so that everybody can
1:00:30
grow together. That's that's that's incredible.
1:00:33
I I. I think that's so meaningful
1:00:35
work, impactful work is to take everything that you experience
1:00:39
getting your education on the inside and you getting your
1:00:41
education on the outside and you can basically all those things
1:00:45
intersect to make it better. And then taking all the pieces
1:00:48
of of where everything is everywhere else that's going on
1:00:52
in the nation and try to take the best of the best and all
1:00:55
those things. I think you you have a formula.
1:00:58
What? What's your formula that I saw
1:01:00
you walking and sharing the other day on your social media?
1:01:04
It starts with 43. 9543 and 5 S college education.
1:01:11
That's it, 95%. 95%. Of our incarcerated population
1:01:17
is eventually going to be released back out in the
1:01:19
community. So you have to ask, do you want
1:01:22
them released back out with the same skill set to put them in
1:01:24
prison, or do you want to help them grow while they're in
1:01:27
there? And then 43% lower recidivism
1:01:30
rates for people that to get to experience college education
1:01:34
while they're inside compared to those who don't.
1:01:37
And then $5.00 of recidivism expenses are saved for every
1:01:41
$1.00 invested educating somebody while they're inside.
1:01:46
And those are just three no brainer facts.
1:01:49
It's it's powerful facts, because those are.
1:01:51
Big, you know, and recidivism, you know, is, is so crazy when
1:01:56
you, when we, when we look at it, you know, the 2/3 and three
1:01:59
years and and the 3/4 and five years and how does that all
1:02:03
happen? There's a whole bunch of reasons
1:02:04
why, you know, people, education being one, people not be able to
1:02:08
get housing when they get up, people having to, you know,
1:02:10
struggle through job opportunities.
1:02:12
But the education piece can change a lot of those pieces
1:02:16
because the in those job interviews, somebody who's had
1:02:21
that education confidence experience, they might handle
1:02:24
themselves more confidently on how they're going to go through
1:02:28
that job interview than someone who's just not been able to have
1:02:32
that opportunity. So I think that's a huge, huge
1:02:34
piece of, of what you're helping with.
1:02:36
Sean, if I was going to ask you what your biggest take away was
1:02:40
through all this experience, what, what would you think?
1:02:42
Well, you know, mindset is the. Biggest key for anybody in this
1:02:46
life is what I've learned through all of this.
1:02:49
That's the biggest differentiator.
1:02:52
What's your mindset when you start the day?
1:02:54
What's your purpose? What's most important to you?
1:02:56
And before you know, when I made all these mistakes, I had
1:03:00
embraced success as my identity. I thought everything in my life
1:03:05
was because of my identity. I thought if the success ended,
1:03:08
my identity was going to end. Everything I had was going to be
1:03:13
gone once, once I change that mindset and really analyzed,
1:03:18
hey, what put me here? What do I need to do to fix
1:03:21
these things? That mindset was always my GPS
1:03:24
to get me through the day. And it's, it's allowing me to
1:03:27
get to this point where now I can share those lessons with,
1:03:33
you know, other hedge funds, private equity funds, university
1:03:38
business schools, compliance groups and share them.
1:03:41
Hey, this is my exact story. This is what I was thinking.
1:03:44
This is how this developed. This is why I wasn't thinking
1:03:47
about this or justifying this. You know, those, those
1:03:51
philosophy, psychology and sociology classes that I was
1:03:55
skipping at the the first time I went to school, Those, those
1:03:59
were gaping holes in who I was as a person.
1:04:01
And so when I got to actually experience those classes and
1:04:04
embrace that knowledge, I became a full person.
1:04:08
And it allowed me to, you know, spin my life up instead of, you
1:04:12
know, spinning down, which most people, when they get out.
1:04:16
That's why the recidivism numbers are the way they are.
1:04:18
Yeah. And the other thing I love?
1:04:21
About your story, Sean, is that you know, this, this show goes
1:04:25
into 1200 prisons on the adobo platform and, and just your
1:04:30
story of how you did what you did, what you did.
1:04:33
It will hopefully encourage some people who are on the fence
1:04:38
thinking is it worth it? Is it not worth it?
1:04:40
You know, here's a guy that actually got charged and more
1:04:45
confidence and belief going and changes of mindset and, and to
1:04:50
being able to bolt out of prison as opposed to, you know, there's
1:04:54
always struggles when you get out re entry.
1:04:56
It's always tough. But giving yourself as many
1:04:58
tools as you can is what you want.
1:05:01
And I think this could be helpful for people to hear that.
1:05:04
Yeah, I think the main thing. You know that that system where
1:05:09
your podcast goes on to all of those different tablets in all
1:05:12
those different facilities. Kudos to the guys that are
1:05:15
actually taking that first step of trying to rebuild their life
1:05:19
and actually make those changes when they have the opportunity.
1:05:23
One of the biggest things, and this is in most facilities
1:05:27
across country, but the seven habits of highly effective
1:05:29
people from the Frankly Covey organization, if, if your
1:05:34
facility doesn't have the program, the seven habits, you
1:05:37
have to get your hands on that book and just use that as your
1:05:41
DAILY GUIDE because it'll, it'll change your life and it'll
1:05:45
change your thought process and your habits.
1:05:47
And that starts building. And then another author, a
1:05:50
Weldon Long who did 13 years got out, had a really successful
1:05:55
sales career going. He wrote a book called Power of
1:05:59
consistency, same thing. And gives you an exact detailed
1:06:03
plan of what he did. And it turns out part of his
1:06:06
book was based on his changes were based on Stephen Covey's 7
1:06:10
Habits. And so those those two things
1:06:13
and then Brené Brown, I can't say enough about.
1:06:15
And then Jerry Kalana as well. You just have to find the
1:06:18
authors that resonate with you, that give you fuel to keep those
1:06:22
changes going. Just use the accountability
1:06:25
every day. Surround yourself with people
1:06:27
going through the same things, trying to grow, share what
1:06:30
you're learning with each other and you're building your
1:06:33
credibility first with yourself and then with other people.
1:06:37
And that college education, if you can get it, that's just
1:06:40
going to continue to build that credibility.
1:06:41
So true, so true. I want to give a shout out to.
1:06:44
Homestead Financial, who lets me use this podcast studio and
1:06:49
fancy camera and lights. If you've got home mortgage
1:06:51
needs out there, Greg Aftiev is your guy.
1:06:53
He knows all that stuff. You know as as Sean's getting
1:06:57
his book ready, fuel to change, turning set back into strength.
1:07:00
I've got a book already out there.
1:07:02
So if you're going to Amazon, go check out Nightmare Success,
1:07:05
Loyalty, betrayal, life behind bars, adapting and finally
1:07:08
breaking free. If you got time linear review on
1:07:12
Apple. I love that.
1:07:13
I love reading those things. It helps the show too.
1:07:15
If you want to know what I'm doing, go to brentcassidy.com.
1:07:17
I spell it wrong. I spell it with a Ty, not a DY.
1:07:20
And as I used to say, as I was writing my emails back and forth
1:07:24
from Leavenworth, stay strong. I'll do the same.
1:07:26
Sean Mueller, wow, I love your story.
1:07:29
I love how you just took a hold and and just started walking the
1:07:33
walk and now you're helping people and it's inspiring stuff,
1:07:37
man. Just keep doing it.
1:07:39
Well, I appreciate it, Brent. I appreciate.
1:07:41
You giving me the time and opportunity to talk with you
1:07:43
today. All right, folks, nightmare
1:07:45
success in and out.