Latest / The Parenting Podcast / Chat with Cheryl: What If the Mess Means You’re Doing It Right? | Ep. 155

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Chat with Cheryl: What If the Mess Means You’re Doing It Right? | Ep. 155 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:06
  If I'm being really honest, there have been so many times I've looked at my kids and thought, why is this so hard?
• 0:19
  I'm Cheryl Lang, and this is the Parenting Podcast.
• 0:22
  And today, I've got a mom in the studio with me who's wrestling with the same questions.
• 0:29
  Why is parenting so messy?
• 0:31
  Why don't our kids just get it?
• 0:35
  And how do we guide them well without getting lost in the frustration?
• 0:41
  I'm so glad you're here.
• 0:43
  Let's join the conversation.
• 0:53
  Cheryl: Listeners, I'm excited because we have another friend of mine and of TPP.
• 1:00
  Cheryl: Kyla Pace is in here with me recording today.
• 1:02
  Kyla: It's great to be here.
• 1:03
  Kyla: Thank you.
• 1:04
  Cheryl: Oh, Kyla.
• 1:05
  Cheryl: I'm so glad.
• 1:06
  Cheryl: Tell us a little bit about You and your family.
• 1:09
  Kyla: Sure.
• 1:09
  Kyla: Yeah, I'm married to Tim.
• 1:11
  Kyla: We have four kids two girls two boys Our girls are 15 and 13 and our boys are 12 and 9.
• 1:21
  Cheryl: Oh, wonderful.
• 1:22
  Cheryl: So what would you like to talk about?
• 1:24
  Kyla: Well, I.
• 1:25
  Kyla: I was so impacted.
• 1:27
  Kyla: It was a couple episodes ago, but it was your episode on apple nailing, which had a weird title, but oh my goodness, it just struck my heart.
• 1:35
  Kyla: And I identified with so much of what you said, particularly you and Christy talking about parenting being a process, not an event.
• 1:45
  Kyla: Just help me work through that because I feel like I need to understand that more.
• 1:49
  Cheryl: Oh, that's good, Kyla.
• 1:51
  Cheryl: All right, for our listeners who may have forgotten or need a refresher, or haven't listened to that episode.
• 2:00
  Cheryl: Apple nailing is just a really good illustration.
• 2:03
  Cheryl: It's a picture in parenting, whenever we're trying to go for the quick fix for the Outward, shiny, polished apple that appears good to us and to others and not work on what's really inside their character and their hearts, right?
• 2:23
  Kyla: Yes
• 2:24
  Cheryl: And then that's very related to process versus event style parenting.
• 2:31
  Cheryl: Yeah Because it is true.
• 2:32
  Cheryl: We say it all the time.
• 2:34
  Cheryl: Thank you.
• 2:34
  Cheryl: Because this is a chance to kind of explain it.
• 2:37
  Cheryl: Okay, there are a lot of things in life that can be put together with certain steps.
• 2:45
  Cheryl: Let's say, uh, getting a degree to be a doctor.
• 2:50
  Cheryl: There are certain steps you have to take, and if you go through the hoops, and if you do them well enough, and you dot your I's and cross your T's and pass the test and do the study and get certified, you become a doctor.
• 3:04
  Cheryl: Right.
• 3:04
  Cheryl: So that's an event thing, and we all get that.
• 3:08
  Cheryl: That's much easier than the parts of life that are process for example my character is a process I wish I could just tweak something and I become humble or just do something and then I would be unselfish.
• 3:26
  Cheryl: Right.
• 3:26
  Cheryl: But the problem is character is developed over a long process and time.
• 3:33
  Cheryl: And so it's the same with our kids.
• 3:36
  Cheryl: All of us want the one, two, three, how do you do it?
• 3:39
  Cheryl: For example, a baby that won't sleep at night.
• 3:43
  Cheryl: There are some steps, and different people have different methods, and those are kind of.
• 3:48
  Cheryl: Uh, event, but when we're talking about the overall work of parenting, if we see it as the individual separate things we do, or The steps we take, we're looking at just the surface and the real parenting, that you as a good parent and others, what we really want to do is develop our children's character and work on relationships and develop, help them with their worldview and that they don't just pass the test in life, but they are.
• 4:27
  Cheryl: Growing and becoming the kind of people that God created them to be and also the kind of person that we would like them to become.
• 4:38
  Cheryl: And I hear that,
• 4:39
  Kyla: yeah, and that, that makes sense in my brain, but practically and day to day thinking, I'm struggling because I, I pretty much have three teenagers in my house.
• 4:51
  Kyla: Which comes with lots of hormones, lots of attitude, some sass, some competition, and it's a daily grind and I feel my brain is saying It's a process.
• 5:02
  Cheryl: Yeah,
• 5:03
  Kyla: but my reaction my emotions seem to be ramping up with my kids, and I will give you a practical Example like a couple weeks ago.
• 5:12
  Kyla: We went on a trip to Arizona you
• 5:15
  Cheryl: escaped the yucky weather here
• 5:17
  Kyla: Yes, we went to sunny 70 degree weather.
• 5:21
  Kyla: We got to do some fun things We swam we saw family.
• 5:26
  Kyla: We even went to see the Grand Canyon for the first time.
• 5:29
  Kyla: Nice And I had a lot of excitement but on our trip, it was just difficult.
• 5:39
  Kyla: The kids, it was the competition and it's who sits where in the car.
• 5:46
  Kyla: It's who's ready in time to go to the pool.
• 5:50
  Kyla: It's we're on the edge of the Grand Canyon.
• 5:54
  Kyla: They're looking at this magnificent thing, the Grand Canyon, and they're fussing over who got what snack and who got to see it first.
• 6:04
  Kyla: And they're irritated because I want to take some pictures.
• 6:08
  Kyla: And it's just frustrating because in my mind.
• 6:13
  Kyla: Why can't it be more peaceful, more joyful, more easy?
• 6:18
  Kyla: It's just a grind.
• 6:21
  Kyla: Okay,
• 6:21
  Cheryl: and our listeners may wonder, why is Cheryl laughing?
• 6:24
  Cheryl: Because you're just describing my life as a parent.
• 6:28
  Cheryl: I totally identify with you.
• 6:30
  Cheryl: you and I tend to be non confrontational people.
• 6:33
  Kyla: Right.
• 6:34
  Cheryl: And what you just said, can't we all just be kind and enjoy the Grand Canyon?
• 6:39
  Cheryl: You know, let's, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
• 6:43
  Cheryl: and the problem is real life.
• 6:45
  Cheryl: Right.
• 6:45
  Cheryl: And so If you took pictures there, and they're Instagrammable, it will look so nice.
• 6:52
  Cheryl: And see, that's the problem.
• 6:54
  Cheryl: We think of parenting being fast like Instagram photos.
• 6:58
  Cheryl: We would like it to be.
• 6:59
  Cheryl: just quick and easy And the problem is real life just isn't like that.
• 7:05
  Cheryl: And that's just a lie.
• 7:06
  Cheryl: And if you want to really work on your children and their character and who they're becoming, then you have to see this is all part of the process.
• 7:19
  Cheryl: All of these things.
• 7:21
  Cheryl: are revealing what their hearts are and their character they're not suddenly thinking, Oh, I think I'll be selfish.
• 7:28
  Cheryl: They're revealing that they are selfish.
• 7:29
  Kyla: Right.
• 7:30
  Kyla: Well, and I kind of wanted to ask about personality.
• 7:33
  Kyla: Because you and Christy, in that episode, we're talking about people pleasing.
• 7:38
  Kyla: And it's hard because the facade and the apple looks all shiny.
• 7:42
  Kyla: What's going on with heart?
• 7:44
  Kyla: Well, I'm a people pleaser.
• 7:46
  Kyla: I don't like conflict.
• 7:48
  Kyla: Even as a kid, I would go with the flow.
• 7:51
  Kyla: I have For the most part, strong willed, opinionated, uh, rough around the edges kids, not All of them, but a lot of them, and it just rubs me the wrong way, but I hear you saying they're individuals.
• 8:10
  Kyla: They have their own personalities.
• 8:12
  Kyla: I guess I'm saying I don't relate to their reactions a lot of times and how difficult they make things.
• 8:20
  Kyla: How can I
• 8:21
  Cheryl: adapt?
• 8:23
  Cheryl: Well, and I can identify with you because what we're talking about, our basic temperament is the same.
• 8:30
  Mm hmm.
• 8:31
  Cheryl: We tend to be nice people.
• 8:33
  Cheryl: The problem that that leads to is the people pleasing thing, which is wrong.
• 8:37
  Cheryl: Mm
• 8:37
  hmm.
• 8:38
  Cheryl: And, it makes unhealthy relationships.
• 8:41
  Cheryl: That's the problem.
• 8:42
  Cheryl: People pleasing, we don't tend to draw boundaries.
• 8:45
  Cheryl: We Do things that look nice.
• 8:48
  Cheryl: We shine our apples all the time, even when that's not genuine.
• 8:52
  Cheryl: Right.
• 8:53
  Cheryl: But at least you know where your children stand.
• 8:56
  Cheryl: Right?
• 8:56
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 8:57
  Cheryl: When you have one that just looks you in the face and says, no.
• 9:01
  Cheryl: you know what you're dealing with and here's the problem You and I in this struggle we are projecting ourselves our wishes On to an individual that's beautifully created and happens to be different from us.
• 9:17
  Cheryl: Right.
• 9:18
  Cheryl: And my more compliant, uh, people pleasing children, there were deep waters that were not dealt with and they were submerged instead of coming to the surface so we can talk about it.
• 9:32
  Cheryl: Right.
• 9:32
  Cheryl: So from a positive viewpoint they're pouring it out all over each other and then you can deal with it instead of covering it up and polishing the apples.
• 9:42
  Cheryl: And so the way you deal with those pictures to say, just stand there and quit poking your sister and smile.
• 9:49
  Cheryl: that's Apple nailing, but it's okay for an Instagram picture.
• 9:53
  Cheryl: But that's not what we want to do.with actual life issues And
• 9:56
  that
• 9:57
  Kyla: really reminds me.
• 9:58
  Kyla: There are a couple of episodes on self care because I am a more low energy person with a lot of high energy, loud kids, extroverted.
• 10:08
  Kyla: Almost everyone.
• 10:09
  Kyla: but my husband, three or four of my kids are extroverted.
• 10:14
  Kyla: So I really have to create margin to have the energy, otherwise I'm drained.
• 10:19
  Cheryl: okay, I'm a much higher energy person, but I fall in the same trap.
• 10:23
  Cheryl: I can just maybe fill the bucket a little higher.
• 10:27
  Cheryl: But the problem is both of us again We just have to find somewhere to have the margin to deal with the reality of our life right, for example, I was handed the reality of Widowed parenting.
• 10:41
  Cheryl: Mm
• 10:41
  hmm.
• 10:42
  Cheryl: Well somewhere I had to find How I could fill that bucket when suddenly I was having to do anything And so what did I have to do?
• 10:52
  Cheryl: I had to lop things off.
• 10:55
  Cheryl: I had to give up things.
• 10:57
  Cheryl: And I had to, kind of.
• 11:00
  Cheryl: lower my standards, particularly in the apple polishing areas.
• 11:04
  Cheryl: I had to lower my standards of what I thought I could accomplish.
• 11:07
  that's really good
• 11:08
  Cheryl: Otherwise I didn't have enough to bring to my children.
• 11:11
  Cheryl: I'm not going to give all the details here, but you and I have tried to mash through this struggle and I've watched you make decisions about what you're going to do throughout your week with your family, how y'all are allotting your time, some of your educational choices to give you more margin so that you can invest in your own self care, like you mentioned, and so you can bring it to the table for your kids.
• 11:38
  Cheryl: Right.
• 11:39
  Cheryl: Right.
• 11:39
  Cheryl: So.
• 11:40
  Cheryl: If you don't have any margin, you are going to be drained.
• 11:44
  Cheryl: Your kids are not going to have you do the long course of parenting where you say, we have to deal with this.
• 11:52
  Cheryl: You know, it's, um, like the old sit down and be quiet.
• 11:55
  Cheryl: type of parenting with a two year old or anyone or Nowadays here and they hand them a device, right?
• 12:02
  Cheryl: And there are places to use devices but I'm saying as a parenting technique instead of working on the child's behavior and their Ability to respond to you.
• 12:13
  Cheryl: There is the harsh just sit down and Be quiet, that's that's not working on it.
• 12:19
  Cheryl: That's a quick fix.
• 12:20
  Cheryl: Now.
• 12:21
  Cheryl: It's so easy to hand this device to them.
• 12:23
  Cheryl: And so they are distracted or entertained.
• 12:27
  Cheryl: And I'm still not working on their character.
• 12:29
  Cheryl: I'm working with a young mom and she has some young children.
• 12:34
  Cheryl: And she's asking how can I get them to wait when we're somewhere at the bank or in a doctor's office or wherever they are?
• 12:44
  Cheryl: And I said, well, part it it's training just like You work out, you go to the gym, it's training, your arms are gonna get stronger over the long haul as you do it.
• 12:53
  Cheryl: And so she has to train beginning with maybe 10 seconds.
• 12:59
  Cheryl: of that two, three year old sitting still when she's asked them to, and then from seconds, 30 seconds, minute, and work up their ability to sit still, or practice when they could hop up and run to say, I need you to just wait just a minute.
• 13:15
  Cheryl: She's practicing their ability to listen to her.
• 13:18
  Cheryl: and to stretch their attention span.
• 13:20
  Kyla: That's really good.
• 13:21
  Cheryl: And see, but the apple nailing of the quick answer would be whenever we're somewhere I distract them, particularly with a device, or bribe them like we talked about, or guilt them, or do something kind of harsh in the way of a threat.
• 13:37
  Kyla: Well, I have a question.
• 13:38
  Kyla: Can you fast forward or project a little bit into the teenage years when there is more independence, some more maturity, if you're seeing behavior, but you're not happy with it, I, I trained you on this.
• 13:54
  Kyla: We worked on this.
• 13:55
  Kyla: We worked on kindness and sharing and patience and thankfulness and gratefulness.
• 14:00
  Kyla: But I'm seeing ugliness rear up as it does moodiness or disrespect.
• 14:05
  Kyla: Okay.
• 14:05
  Cheryl: The different seasons of parenting.
• 14:08
  Cheryl: require different techniques or focus.
• 14:12
  Cheryl: For example, I was talking about your little ones.
• 14:13
  Cheryl: You have more control, but you don't want to control too much.
• 14:17
  Cheryl: And then you're doing a lot of training, bit by bit, like that two, three year old, they're learning slowly how to sit and wait.
• 14:25
  Cheryl: And so you have the control over it, but you're gently training them to be able to wait, so they can, actually develop patience rather than merely be entertained or kind of afraid if they don't they're going get in trouble.
• 14:40
  Cheryl: So there's a place to say, I need you to sit here.
• 14:42
  Cheryl: You have to have obedience sometimes, but I'm talking about, you want to develop patience in your children.
• 14:48
  Cheryl: The quick fix is not going to develop patience.
• 14:51
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 14:51
  Cheryl: Then the middle years, there's a little more leeway.
• 14:54
  Cheryl: If you've done some training, you can kind of work on more teaching and the relationship and i feel there's a Not the pressures that there are maybe in the other seasons.
• 15:04
  Cheryl: And so, philosophically, if we approach the teen years as intentional emancipation, that we are in the middle of the releasing process, whether they're ready for it or not, incrementally, our hands on teaching years are coming to an end.
• 15:23
  Cheryl: We have to let consequences begin primarily to teach we have to let them feel the burn of their consequences and failures as we're walking with thEm.
• 15:35
  Cheryl: Right.
• 15:36
  Cheryl: So, it is hard.
• 15:38
  Cheryl: Because, don't tell a 15 year old, I need you to sit in the chair for five minutes.
• 15:44
  Cheryl: Sure.
• 15:45
  Cheryl: And have a time out.
• 15:46
  Cheryl: Right.
• 15:47
  Cheryl: Those techniques don't work at this age, that is true.
• 15:51
  Cheryl: So, it comes back to the old, you deal with when there's issue, you talk about when it isn't.
• 15:56
  Cheryl: And, work on the relationship, keep the bridge open with them, and then we have to sit down and talk.
• 16:03
  Cheryl: And you have to have real conversations.
• 16:06
  Cheryl: And they're going to push back on all of it, and that's why you need the margins, you have the energy.
• 16:12
  Cheryl: Let's have a conversation about this.
• 16:14
  Cheryl: And I have to come in humble, genuine to them.
• 16:20
  Cheryl: If I have been impatient, I mean, little ones recognize it, but you're a 15 year old.
• 16:26
  Cheryl: If you are impatient, And snappy and you're doing all those things and you turn around and say you need to be kind and not snap at people.
• 16:35
  Cheryl: Hypocrite.
• 16:36
  Cheryl: Exactly.
• 16:37
  Cheryl: and I've been nailed by my children.
• 16:39
  Cheryl: I've told the stories before, uh, where my kids go, well, you did it.
• 16:45
  Cheryl: And I do a lot of apologizing.
• 16:47
  Cheryl: That's fantastic.
• 16:48
  Cheryl: Right.
• 16:48
  Cheryl: that's the thing.
• 16:49
  Cheryl: that's why We have to come in prepared with margin.
• 16:54
  Cheryl: We're role modeling what we want them to see.
• 16:57
  Kyla: Can you talk a little bit about maybe the minute or two after an offense happens, or you know, my teenager is sassy, and I get angry.
• 17:09
  Kyla: I feel like I struggle, like I want to, I'm tending to match their emotional level, and it goes up.
• 17:19
  Cheryl: Okay, so Kyla grow up and quit doing that.
• 17:22
  Cheryl: we can't make ourselves just do that.
• 17:24
  Cheryl: Right, You can't make yourself have a different emotion.
• 17:28
  Cheryl: that's a natural response But what you can do is slow down enough, realize I'm triggered here, say, I can't respond right now, but we're going to come back to this the way you've spoken to me is unacceptable, but we're going to talk about it later.
• 17:47
  Cheryl: And you go away, get your emotions under control, and then you say, now let's sit down and talk about it.
• 17:55
  Cheryl: I'm sorry, it's time consuming.
• 17:57
  Kyla: Yeah,
• 17:58
  Cheryl: it is.
• 17:59
  Cheryl: Well, Kyla growing really nice apples is time consuming.
• 18:03
  Cheryl: I feel like
• 18:03
  Kyla: a lot of days, I am like, I am going on a walk and I leave with my emotions.
• 18:10
  Kyla: It's simmering and I come back 20 minutes later and it's all gone down, but do I just have to do this over and over?
• 18:18
  Cheryl: Well, do you want your children over and over and over?
• 18:21
  Cheryl: Learn to be kind, get to their heart, realize that they should not people please or they shouldn't be selfish We're working on character and characters only developed over the long haul.
• 18:35
  Cheryl: Also, Kyla, if you didn't have children.
• 18:38
  Cheryl: possibly your heart wouldn't be worked on the way it is with your kids.
• 18:42
  Kyla: Sure, game for me
• 18:44
  Cheryl: If your didn't deal with it there at least wouldn't be all that conflict But then they go into adulthood and they haven't had a lifetime of learning.
• 18:52
  Cheryl: I have to defer to others I can't always do what i want The benefits of that but it's a mixed It's a bag.
• 18:59
  Cheryl: Right.
• 18:59
  Cheryl: It's a mess.
• 19:00
  Kyla: Oh, that's good, Cheryl.
• 19:01
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 19:02
  Cheryl: And so I identify with you.
• 19:05
  Cheryl: Because my teens triggered me.
• 19:07
  Cheryl: They pushed buttons I didn't know I owned.
• 19:09
  Kyla: Yes,
• 19:09
  Cheryl: scientists tell us, that when we are triggered with our emotions, We can't think logically.
• 19:14
  Cheryl: We're flooded.
• 19:16
  Cheryl: that's why we talk about self regulation and self awareness, And particularly teens, they are flooded with all their hormones.
• 19:24
  Cheryl: if you are hyped up.
• 19:25
  Cheryl: How are you going to have this really good conversation where you can walk them through the situation?
• 19:32
  Cheryl: So the truth is, when I handled it correctly, I had some margin.
• 19:38
  Cheryl: I recognized when I was triggered.
• 19:40
  Cheryl: And with my teens, I chose when we had our conversation.
• 19:44
  Kyla: That's
• 19:44
  Cheryl: really good.
• 19:45
  Kyla: Exactly.
• 19:45
  Kyla: Because we have to drive this ship.
• 19:47
  Kyla: We're parents, we're experienced and loving and they're hormonal and unstable.
• 19:53
  Cheryl: That's right.
• 19:54
  Cheryl: And so the process event thing, remember.
• 19:57
  Cheryl: Every time that all these things are happening, they're just events and I'm glad but sorry to tell you this, you're going to have plenty more times to put this all into practice okay?
• 20:07
  Cheryl: Right, It doesn't
• 20:08
  Kyla: even seem quite fair that their hormones are changing at the same time my hormones are changing.
• 20:12
  Kyla: That's a mean trick.
• 20:15
  Cheryl: but seriously, want to develop a track record with them of being genuine and honest and loving to them.
• 20:23
  Kyla: Right.
• 20:23
  Kyla: And safe
• 20:24
  Cheryl: and a safe place, even when I'm must really confront them! Calm myself down, and think through it, and then come back asking myself, How can I love this child best, in this real situation, at this time?
• 20:40
  Cheryl: Well, Kyla, I want the yucky stuff to come up so while they're at home with me, we can have those conversations or maybe I've let the bridge be really cleared between us, and they feel safe enough to come and say, Mom, I need to tell you something, I need your help, I need to process this with you.
• 21:01
  Cheryl: And then we can talk about it that's NOT! apple nailing Does that make sense?
• 21:06
  Kyla: It really does.
• 21:07
  Kyla: That's excellent.
• 21:08
  Cheryl: Kyla, our time is out.
• 21:10
  Cheryl: I can't believe it.
• 21:11
  Cheryl: This feels like our kind of conversations.
• 21:14
  Cheryl: We've had a hundred of them.
• 21:16
  Kyla: It's good for my heart to process through these things.
• 21:19
  Cheryl: we didn't get into all your questions Could you come back in sometime and let's do another deep dive.
• 21:25
  Cheryl: You want to do that?
• 21:26
  Kyla: Yes.
• 21:26
  Kyla: Absolutely.
• 21:27
  Cheryl: Thank you so much.
• 21:28
  Kyla: Thank you, Cheryl.
• 21:30
  Cheryl: Parents, remember, hang in there, keep loving, keep persevering because it's worth it.
• 21:41
  Parenting has a way of exposing things in me I didn't expect.
• 21:47
  How patient, or not, I really am, how much I want control, and how easily frustration creeps in.
• 21:58
  And like I've shared with you all, some of my toughest moments with my kids aren't just about them, they're about me too.
• 22:08
  The way I react, the things that push my buttons, and the patterns I am still unlearning, but real growth, ours and theirs.
• 22:20
  It takes time.
• 22:22
  It's not about instant results, but steady, unseen progress.
• 22:29
  So if the day felt overwhelming, if you lost your temper, if you just wish you could rewind, take heart.
• 22:40
  Parenting isn't just about raising our kids, it's shaping us too.
• 22:45
  So give yourself grace.
• 22:47
  Repair what needs repairing, and keep going.
• 22:51
  I'm right here with you, and if you need to reach out, you can find me at contact at theparentingpodcast.
• 22:59
  com, or DM me on social media.
• 23:03
  Keep leading with love, and I'll see you next time.