Latest / The You Project / #1904 Is Your Phone Giving You ADHD? - David Gillespie

Transcript

#1904 Is Your Phone Giving You ADHD? - David Gillespie · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's it's Tiff, it's doctor Gillespie,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's it's me, Fatty Harps. It's the you project. We'll
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: start with the pugilist who's going through some emotional and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: hormonal and psychological and sociological issues. Nothing big, just just
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: ticking all the fucking catastrophe boxes. It's a day to
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: day proposition and I'm scared to ask, but what's the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: what's the update?
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: I opened my eyes in the morning and I just
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: wonder who I'm going to be?
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: Who am I going to be today?
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Well you look, I mean, you look happy and
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: how fucking big? I just looked at your face. How
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: big are those glasses?
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: But fucking cool?
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Are they very studious?
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah? How smart do I look?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Very?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Oh twice a smart? Yeah?
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: Thank you twice?
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Is big?
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: Thank you?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: You should You should get goalsspar at some stage to
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: do a deep dive on Perry menopause so he can
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: tell you what to do for the next few years.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: Can you fix me? You fix me?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Ship is anywhere, dear beause, no perimenopause.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: She's just like she's walking down the corridor to the
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: door that says menopause, and I'm not throwing her under
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the bus. This has been spoken about ad nauseum on
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the podcast everyone, so I don't think, oh my god,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: that's divulging her private matters. No, she spoke about it
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: at length. How are you feeling today? Do you still
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: want to punch someone or are you better?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: It was another night of crap sleep, so and that
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: doesn't help me. Crap sleep and very tired and no energy.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: But I went for a really light, short three.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: K jog before and I feel good after that.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: But it's just trying to balance that with not blowing
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: myself out completely.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Well, if you want to increase your dough for me.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: And there's a new product out called Scrollamine, which you
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: were calling scroll of Mine, which is ridiculous, and David
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: and I corrected you.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: I'll make I've got it on film. I'll make a
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: thing and put it on your Instagram.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: That's no, I hate you. You meant to make me
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: look good.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Even Meliss is the boss and I'll go straight to
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: the top with this one.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Third on the ladder, Doctor Gillespie, welcome to the show.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: We haven't even spoken to you. How are you?
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Good? No, just you know for new listeners. I'm
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: not a doctor, despite what Craig says, but we will
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: talk about medical stuff today despite not being a doctor.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Well, of course we will. How are your hormones going?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Are you?
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Are you any menopause?
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Man?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: You know the thing called called andro pause? Have you
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: heard it?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Is there? Really?
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: No?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard of that and probably haven't experienced. I
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: don't know, feel normal the same way as I always do.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you do live a very healthy lifestyle. What's
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: news on planet you? How's how's everything going? You still
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: do you need me to come up with my money?
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Will be't help you? Just transfer some of it from
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: room to room?
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: You pay me?
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Can I can? I? No, I can't say it. I
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: can't say it. I was going to say something about
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the U Project conference, but I can't say it. But
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: maybe sooner I'll be able to say what I'm going
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: to say. Everyone is there's a reasonable chance there's a
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: reasonable chance that not doctor but David Gillespie will be
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: at the conference, if not this year, next year. But
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: we're trying to get it. We're just my guys are
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: talking to his guys.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: People are talking, Yes, Tiff, is he going to just
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: stand behind a black screen so no one can see
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: his face.
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: We know what it looks like.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Then no, I will be behind a black screen.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well tell everyone why you said that, Tiff.
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Because we've never, ever, ever ever seen his face. This
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: could be some AI David Gillespie never true camera on.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: It could be it probably is.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: What's happened.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Imagine the lawsuit when the real David Gillespie gets hold
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: of some.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Of these episodes. Well what Tiff is saying everyone, which
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: you're probably gleamed, but just if you haven't, I'll be clear.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: David leaves his camera off and he's never, ever, in
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: any episode, for one minute, ever had it on. So
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Tiff and I have ours on and we can see
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: each other's very handsome faces, and but we look at
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: a black square, to be honest, more accurate, a rectangle
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: with his name in it? Is that? Why is that?
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Is that? Because you don't think we're going to be
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: able to cope with your face? What is that about?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah? The beauty, it will just blow your way. No,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: I just I can relax more when I'm not on Telly.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I hate seeing myself on Telly, even even this Telly
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: and I need to be relaxed to do this well,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: and so I prefer to do it, and you let
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: me do it.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: So I do well. You do a very good job.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: But I can hear water splashing, so I'm operating the
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: assumption that you're in the bath.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: So I really I think the water must be splashing
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: at TIFFs place.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I can see her. There's no water involved.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: So you wrote an article recently about the fact that
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: which I have not read, but I only heard about
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: it just before we went live. My bad didn't do
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: any research because I thought you'd rock up as you
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: often just do and go nah, let's talk about this
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: or that. But completely my fault. But the relationship between
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: using our phone and ADHD that it might be correlated.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Well, the title of the article is is your phone
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: giving you ADHD? And for the ADHD listeners who just
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: want to get to the point, the answer is yes,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: thanks and see you later. We'll catch you next week.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. The answer is yes, yeah, that's
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: been David Gillespie. You see every second Thursday, all right.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: So yeah, but let's dig in for the rest of
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: your listeners and get to the bottom of it. This
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: is prompted. The reason I wrote this article is there
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: was an article last week in all the papers about
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: the new South Wales government announcing that they were going
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: to allow GPS to do ADHD diagnosis, which until now
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: and in every other state is still restricted to specials
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: I think psychiatrists too. So you have to you have
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: to lay down some some serious green to get an
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: ADHD diagnosis. And what they're saying is, well, that's backing
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: up the system because the number of diagnoses is growing
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: like crazy, and you know there's many, many more people
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: who need the diagnosis than who are capable of, you know,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: being diagnosed by the existing health workforce. So we're going
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: to our GPS do it. I guess the underlying question
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: there is why do we suddenly have so many people
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: needing diagnosis? And it's a question that's been raised in
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of places in the UK and the US,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: and that's because when you look at the numbers they're
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: pretty horrifying. If you look in the UK, recorded ADHD
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: diagnosis shot up twentyfold, so not just twice, twenty times
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: between two thousand and twenty eighteen.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: So thousand percent.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's not nothing. That's that's a lot, and
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: it's climbing an average of eighteen percent every year, so
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: that's a very very significant. The US are similar similar
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: stats there there are I think diagnosis went up. No,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't put their numbers in there, but they're similar numbers,
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: same sort of numbers from memory. And if we look
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: at medications, which is people might say, well, what does
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: an ADHD diagnosis get you, Well, it gets you access
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: to medication, which we've talked about before, which is essentially
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: unfetter means. So an ADHD diagnosis gets you access to
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: stimulant medication, and we're going to talk a little bit
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: about why and what the mechanism is there and why
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: that works. But if we look at medication sales in Australia,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: which is the most reliable source of statistics when you
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: come to when it comes to medicine in Australia, because
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: you can't fudge medication sales and they're published public data.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: So there were two per thousand people in two thousand
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: and four, two thousand and five receiving medication for ADHD,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: So two thousand and four, two thousand and five, two
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: per thousand by twenty twenty three, twenty four that was
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: twenty two per thousand, so an elevenfold increase between two
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: thousand and four and twenty twenty three. That's pretty crazy.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: We've got numbers going nuts when it comes to ADHD.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: And the big question, both in the US, the UK
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: and here is why why is that happening? Why is
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: this medical condition that was barely recognized, barely known before
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: the turn of the century suddenly affecting so many people now.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Part of the official explanation you get for that is, ah,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: it's because there's more publicity about it. You know, you
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: and I talking about it today, we're talking about it.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: It will make people interested in it. They'll go and
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: I'll see their doctor, et cetera. So there's more public
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: awareness about the condition. Some people say, oh, it's the
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it's the modern gluten free. You know, it's
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: the trendy thing to have. It's gone from a disease
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: that you didn't want to have because it was viewed
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: as a pretty disease of the lowest socioeconomic classes, because
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: it was generally considered to be caused by economic stress
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: and you know, difficulties in families and so on and so.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: But now it's transitioned to a disease where you know,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: it's sort of the disease de jure. So that's one
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: explanation that's banded about. Another one is that the diagnosis
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: has gotten a lot looser and doctors are just diagnosing
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: it more because of the change in the diagnostic criteria
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: for it, which happened in twenty thirteen. All of those
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: things maybe, but they're all kind of wooly explanations for
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: something that has got some pretty hard numbers behind it.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And I think anyone who realistickly thought about it and said, well, look,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: maybe at the edges, those things are causing those rises,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: but there must be something seriously underlying this. And the
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: clue to the fact that there probably is is that
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: what is often diagnosed with ADHD is anxiety, and anxiety
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: diagnosis has also gone through the roof, so in that time,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: in the last probably decade, it's more than doubled in Australia.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So we've got anxiety going up, we've got ADHD going
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: absolutely off the charts. What could the possible explanation for
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: that be? And I don't buy this business about diseased
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: azure or doctors just being a little bit more free
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: and easy with diagnosis. That's just not happening. It might
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: be happening a little bit, but it's not really. And
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this in the past
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: about the last time or when ADHD was first sort
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: of recognized as being a condition that needed treatment. So
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: remember I talked about the Bradford Home in New York
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: where there were kids after the Second World War who
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: were sent because they were suffering from what would today
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: be described as ADHD. So they were hyperactive, they were
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: difficult to deal with it. They described them as rambunctious.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: And these were kids coming from broken homes, from depression
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: era homes with parents who had been sent off to
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: war and so on, and who were having a hard
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: hard time of it. And they happened across aqure. For
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: the idea was in the home that they'd keep them there,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: isolated from all the nastiness. They'd feed them, they'd clothe them,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: they'd let them play in the woods, and it actually
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: helped you keep them there for three months you would
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: be able to turn them around. But they happened across
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: something really really odd, which is that amphetamines that at
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the time were being used to force soldiers who are
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: suffering from combat fatigue otherwise known as PTSD or what
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: we would today describe as PTSD or anxiety, could be
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: given amphetamines and they'd get them through it. Wouldn't cure anything,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: but they get them through it, they'd be able to
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: fight again, et cetera. Trying these drugs out on kids
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: who had symptoms of ADHD, and let's just remind ourselves
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: what those symptoms are, which is really difficult to focus.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: So in boys that manifests as hyperactivity, if you like,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: you know, scatting around from one thing to the next,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: you know, wanting to move physically, difficulty with impulse control,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: et cetera. In girls that often manifests as day dreams.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: You know, a bit of a day dreamer, you know,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: whenever you can't get them to focus on anything, they're
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: looking out the window. Their brain's not on the subject.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: So those are the symptoms. And what they found was
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: if you gave amphetamines to those kids, bang brand new
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: works out of the box. Just give them this drug
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: and they can focus again. Their cognition goes back up,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: they can do their schoolwork, they can do everything, just
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: back to normal again. And the trouble was it only
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: lasted about four hours. So you give them the amphetamine
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: for as long as the amphetamine stays in their system,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: they're all good, and then as soon as it wears off,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: they're back to the way they were. In fact, possibly
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: even slightly worse if you started to do it for
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: long enough. So at the time, the doctors said, this
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: isn't a solution. It's a band aid. We'll use it
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: in an emergency situation, but it isn't actually solving anything.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: They didn't know the mechanism. But we do know the mechanism.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Now we now understand how the brain works and in
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: this respect and why an amphetamine would make a difference.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: So what's happening in ADHD is that the set point
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: that the brain has for how much dopamine it thinks
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: it needs to focus is driven upwards by exposure to
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: things which push up dopamine. So stress pushes up dopamine,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: and addictive behaviors or substances push up dopamine. So those
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: kids were experiencing large amounts of stress, that was what
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: was pushing up the dopamine set point. But if they'd
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: been in an environment, whether or exposed to a lot
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: of addictive substances, etc. That would have been pushing And
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: it's just just an adaptation of our brain to help
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: us deal with a high dopamine producing environment, either because
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: it's extremely stressful like in combat, or it's surrounded by
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of addictive things, so that set point keeps
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: getting pushed up and up and up in those people. Now,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: when the set point goes up, you need more and
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: more dopamine just to hit the baseline required for focus.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Dopamine's job, by the way, is to make us focus.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: So in the reward system, it's to make us focus
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: on rewards. So make us get out of bed and
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: chase something, you know, preferably sex, because producing the next
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: generation is the purpose of being alive at the end
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: of the day. And so yeah, sorry for the philosophers
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: among the audience, but you know, biochemically, that's where we're at.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: And so dopo mean's job is to get us focused
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: on that goal and get us moving. And on the
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: on the other side of the equation, when something dangerous
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: is happening, dove mean's job is to get us focused
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: on getting away from it. So the reward there is
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: staying alive. So that's what happens, and that said point
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: goes up in a high DOVA environment to make sure
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: that we don't overreact to every little thing that's happening
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: where there's lots of things happening. The problem is that
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: when you do that to your brain, the amount of
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: dopamine require to just keep you focused normally goes up,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: and you can't stay focused normally, and so you get
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit scattery, and your brain's jumping around and
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: you can't maintain the focus required to stay on one
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: line of thought. Now, people with ADHD describe this feeling
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: like it's like they just can't stay on the one
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: line of thought. It's like when you're trying to think
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: about something and then another thought. In truths, if you've
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: ever i don't know, read a particularly invigorating book or
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: you know that that has your board to tears and
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you can't You read a paragraph and then you realize
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: you can't remember what the paragraph was about because you
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: will thinking about something else while you were reading it.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: That kind of thing, but all the time with everything,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: so you just can't maintain a train of thought. And
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: that is a symptom of not enough to overmean in
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: your brain. To keep you focused on a single thought, so.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Just hitting the pause but for one moment. So ADHD
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: expressing in different people is almost a response to something
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: happening in their external world. So a situation, a circumstance, environment,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: experience over time, and over time they for one of
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: the better term get well, they become, you know, a
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: person dealing with ADHD. So not genetic at all.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Well, as with everything, there's a there's a genetic baseline component.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: We all have different propensities to everything. Some of us
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: are more easily addicted than others, some of us more
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: easily have difficulty with stress than others. That's the nature
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: of evolution, which is that on purpose. You know, this
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: is why we don't clone ourselves to reproduce. We want
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: the mixture of the na of mixing two people together
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: that enables us to be adaptable in any environment. And
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: so the same thing's going on here with propensity, it's
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: a normal curve. Most of us are in the middle.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Most of us are around about the same. Some of
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: us are much more in danger than others, and some
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: of us are much less in danger than others.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, makes sense, So go ahead.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: So the issue is Okay, well, if that's what ADHD is,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: if we boil it right down to the biochemistry, what
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: is ADHD. It's dopamine being too low for the level
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: that the brain expects. In other words, the level that
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: the brain expects being too high for the available dopamine.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: If that was right, then we'd express we'd expect anxiety
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: to be a problem as well, because anxiety is caused
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: by exactly the same setup. Biochemically, What happens when the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: dopamine set point is too high is that we overestimate risk.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So we look at an environment, and you and I
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: might be standing there looking at the environment at the
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: exact same set of facts. You would see danger if
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: your if your set point was too high, and I
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: would say, there's absolutely nothing to worry about. So, and
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: by the way, this is a thing between males and females,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: even if their set points are the same, is males
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: have a lower baseline set point than females. So they'll
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: look at the same fact scenario and a male will
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: say nothing to worry about here, and the female will say, actually,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: that looks pretty damn risky to me. I'm not doing it.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: And that's why significantly I think it's three to four
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: times as many teenage males are injured in accidental injuries
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: and deaths than females because males are looking at the
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: same situation as the females are saying there's nothing to
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: worry about here, and the females are saying, yes, there is.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing it anyway. Slight slide track there.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I think we call that the doing dumb shit variable.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: That's right, lowered impulse control, which is yeah, is why
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: teenage male deaths are much higher than teenage female that's anyway,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: slightly off the point. The point is anxiety and ADHD
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: you would expect to travel together because of that biochemistry,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and in fact they do. And this is what puts
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: paid to the arguments about oh, this is just the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: disease of the day, or doctors are just going crazy
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and over diagnosing this thing. Is If that's true, then
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: they're doing it to anxiety too, and I don't think
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: anyone wants to be diagnosed with anxiety. So the problem
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: then is there's something else going on. What could be
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: pushing all of us collectively massively twenty twofold in the stats,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: all of us higher. What could be pushing our set
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: point higher. And the answer is one we discussed before,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: which is we have distributed a means of pushing that
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: set point higher to the entire population from twenty ten onwards.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: And that's the phones. The phones have apps embedded on
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: them which are purposely designed to generate a dopamine hit.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: The reason they're designed to do that is because that's
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: how they get the thing they sell, which is your attention.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: There are hundreds of thousands of free apps you can
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: put on your phone. The winner is the one that
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: keeps your attention best. The only way to keep your
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: attention is by using the addictive mechanisms that they know
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: how to manipulate, which is how to generate a dopamine
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: hit in your brain. We've distributed that to every person
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: and made it entirely accessible twenty four to seven. And
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: then we're going to stand back and say we're surprised
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: when the consequence of that is the entire higher population
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: has their dopamine set point moved up to the level
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: where we've all got ADHD.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yep. That's why when I watch a puppy video,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: which is about you know, every eight minutes fifty seven
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: more come flooding into my fucking you know awareness. Yeah yeah, so,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: I mean that is the that's the commodity that they're
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: vying for. Right is our is our brand, Our attention
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: is our focus. And because we can't if we're not
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: paying attention, we can't buy the shit they're selling.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Well, they're metrics there there. When the product is free.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Do you think it's free to make Facebook or Instagram
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: or video games or pornography? None of that's free. It's
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: all really expensive, but you can access it for free.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: You know, when the product's free, you're the product. So
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: so true, and so you don't spend billions of dollars
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: doing this and then hand give it out. They're giving
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: it out because they know it contains an addiction mechanism
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: and that will keep you engaged with it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: So it's like the drug dealers say, you know, the
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: first one is free.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. And so I mean,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I guess there's no I was going to say simple solution,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Like the solution is simple, but it's not easy, especially
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: when you know there's so much I mean.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: I reckon, Well, the reason it's not easy is because
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: it's an addiction ye, I'm going to if if it
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: were easy, that would be proof that everything I just
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: said is rubbish, because then you're not addicted.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't it. Yeah, it's so easy to get up
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: in the morning and without things, king, grab your phone
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: and just see what what do I need to see?
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, and I guess the test for anyone
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: who's wondering about this and sitting there and saying, oh,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I could stop this anytime, you know, that's right, a
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: lot of rubbish. I'm not addicted. Okay, well then do it,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: but don't just delete the app, which you know in
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: the back of your mind you can just put back
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: on tomorrow and you probably will delete your account, delete
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: your account. Do that.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I won't get too many takers on that one, I bet.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's analogous to you know, you're not
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: calling your dealer. You don't call him anymore. That's like
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: and now I'm going to get him shot. So maybe
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: that's a little bit of a stretch. Do you reckon
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: you're addicted tip to your phone? Yeah? Yes, yeah.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Do you ever experience the symptoms I described for eighty
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: h which is the inability to maintain a persistent train
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: of thought all of the time.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was diagnosed two years ago to ish.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, Yeah, And will you given amphetamines
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: to assist with it?
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah? And I don't. Yeah. I struggle with them brand
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: time on them.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: And what I guess I'm getting to here is there's
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: another way, which I'm not denying. See, there's a tendency
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: when you read the literature on ADHD, there's a tendency
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: for people to sort of dismiss it and say this
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: is made up. People are just going trying to get
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: this diagnosis because they, you know, they think it's a
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: good die trendy diagnosis to get or whatever, or doctors
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: are doing it for the money. I don't think either
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: of those things are true. I think it's genuinely real
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: that we are in the middle of an epidemic of ADHD,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: and it is a very big problem because it's just
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: the first symptom of a long line of things that
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: result from that biochemistry, starting with anxiety and depression and ultimately,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: in some cases, psychosis and suicide. So these are not
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: trivial things we're talking about. And when we start talking
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: about large chunks of the population having that first sign
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: the ADHD. We've got real things to worry about. And
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: the other side of this coin, I guess is there
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: are solutions to this. If we go back to what
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: they were doing in that hospital before they discovered the drug.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: They were saying the solution here is spent three months
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: mucking around in the fields. In other words, train yourself
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: to focus on something other than what is causing that
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: don't mean level to rise, and we can do that too.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And as much as I hate recommending herbal Gerbil solutions
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: to anything, meditation is exactly that.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: It is not, David Gillespie, that's AI, what did you
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: do with gospo?
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I hate even using the word right,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: but if you if you boil meditation down to its core,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: what it is is requiring you forcing yourself to focus
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: on just one thought, and every time you stray from
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: that thought, forcing yourself back to it. You are, by
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: doing that, retraining your brain to focus. And you are
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: also biochemically bringing down that set point. So doing something
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: like Tiff said before going for a run that does
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: the same thing. So there are things you can do
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: to bring that set point down again. But part of
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: this is you have to stop doing the things which
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: were raising it in the first place.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Tiff, do you remember when you got back from your
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: trip to India?
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: It was India, wasn't it you that's to ground for six.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you were the least ADHD sense I've known you,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: like you were the most. I mean, you know sometimes
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: when you talk to people and they're like they've got
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: like fake carm and fake zen, and it's like, nah,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: I'm buy it. This is you just fucking pretending you're
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the Dellilama.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Because it's been a fortune on this stuff and you've
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: got to say you've got something from it.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I'd say, when people tell me they're spiritual, I'm like,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: come on, come on, But you were. You were genuinely
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: very different for about definitely a week, maybe a couple
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: of weeks. Do you remember that months? No? No, no,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: but really noticeably for me, I'm like, you had very
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: different energy.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: I went on Monday night to I haven't been for
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: ages because I keep forgetting until seven thirty.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: It starts at seven.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: Buddhist meditation in Ellwood and I sit down they started,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: and I feel I can almost visualize that the change
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: in my energy like everything, and I float out of
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: there and and it makes me realize almost the visceral,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: toxic load of how I function, like the doing and
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: the thinking and the it's like that coupled with the
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Buddhist teachings is far out.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: It's powerful.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well keep going. That is my suggestion.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: There's other things you can do too, though, I mean
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: if you, I mean it depends what skills you've got available.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: But one of the most powerful things people can do
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: if they have this guide. I can't do this because
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to do it, but if you
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: can play a musical instrument, well, doing that for an
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: hour is very powerful because the focus required to do
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: it is extraordinary. And you can you watch a kid
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: with ADHD come out of a music lesson and they'll
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: feel like you're describing native where where there They went
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: in kicking and screaming, this is the last thing in
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: the world I want to do. I don't know, I
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: don't want to go anywhere near. This is horrible. And
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: then they'll come out on cloud nine like you're describing,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: because they're getting that that pure focus, getting up to
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: that that set point and feeling great, well.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Just becoming a concert pianist.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: So there go just playing the piano. Tiff, does that
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: have that effect?
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: It does, But you know what, lately it has felt
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: it's very taxing as well when you're learning something like
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: that brand new and just with my endg like shitty
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: sleep lately and energy. I'll sit down and what I've
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: noticed like clenching my jaw when I'm doing it all,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: like feeling really tense because I'm just so I don't know,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: it's it's funny, it's been funny. That's just been a
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: recent once my sleep took a big dive again over.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: The interesting thing about sleep is it's often an early
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: warning sign. So there's a really interesting study I talked
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: about in one of my books where sleep was able
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: to predict a depression and anxiety diagnosis two years ahead
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: of other symptoms. So sleep problems was a very very
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: strong predictor of a depression and anxiety diagnosis up to
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: two years ahead of where the symptoms would be, such
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: that a diagnosis would be obvious or correlation. Well, there's
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: a there's a viable biochical explanation. Yeah, Well, the reason
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: that the brain tries to cope with the lack of
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: dopamine by keeping you awake because to stay awake you
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: have to produce dopamine internally, so it's actually the brain
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: trying to get a hit from the dopamine being produced
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: by keeping you awake. So that's that's the biochemistry behind
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: why sleep might be associated with anxiety depression and obviously
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: with ADHD too, because it's on the same it's on
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: the same pathway. So yeah, there is there are studies
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: that show that this in fact occurs, and there's a
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: good biochemical explanation as to why it would occur.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Well, that's some good news for you, Tip, You've got
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: that to look forward to.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Put that on my calendar. Thanks David.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Twenty seven depression midyear. Awesome, mate, thanks for just prophesying
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: over TIFF's incoming mental health issues.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: She'll sort it out, she'll learn to play the piano
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: and that'll be the end of that.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Keep your crystal ball to yourself, will you just fucking around?
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye, affair, but as always, mate, fascinating, Thank
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: You're worried. To see you later.