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Can You Put Sports Into an ETF Yet? · Trillions

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. This is basically betting
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: on how well the team is going to do. So
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in a way, it's just like sports betting, but betting
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: on the strength of these teams. I think looking at
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: it through the lens of stock picking, essentially, and you're
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: basically just team picking here.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Trillions. I'm Joel Weber.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I'm Athanasios Saravagas.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: There are a bunch of new ETF filings this year
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: that have been all about sports. And now there's even more.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: There's some new research from Bloomberg Intelligence about volatility shares,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: which is filed for 32 funds using CME futures that
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: will be linked to official NHL performance data. 32 funds
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: because there are 32 teams in the NHL. Every team...
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: could potentially have its own ETF. Hope you like hockey.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: But that's not all. This year, we're seeing this convergence
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: of the sports world and the ETF universe. One biggie
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: to watch, prediction market ETFs, which were filed earlier this year.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: We've talked about them on previous episodes if you want
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: to go deeper. One that we haven't talked about as much,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: another sports-related ETF filing with its own unique twist, the
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: subversive all-season sports ETF, which is an actively managed exchange-traded
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: fund that aims to basically just win a bunch of
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: sports bets. Nothing is actually approved yet here. These are
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: all just filings. But clearly, sports betting and prediction market
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: apps have shown ETF issuers what can happen when you
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: do this base well. The question, though, is also, why
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: do this in an ETF? Eric Balchunas is off for
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: this episode, so we've tapped one of our favorite ETF
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: regulars on Trillions, Athanasios Saraphagos, is an analyst with Bloomberg
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Intelligence on Eric's team. We'll be filling in for him. Ethan,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: pleasure to have you back on Trillions.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me back on.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: This time on Trillions, the sports conversions. So, Ethan, one
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: of the things that's been happening with ETFs this year
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: has been a number of filings that are all sports related.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: And we've talked about a little bit of that before,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: but now there's a whole new range of filings that
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: just hit. So I want to discuss those with you today,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: as well as the rest of the space. What's in
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: these newest filings?
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  Speaker 1: So these new ones, basically, think about it like stock picking,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: but you can actually bet on an NHL team. And
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: it's not like betting if they're going to win or
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: lose a game. It's literally betting on the strength of
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the team. So if you think like the Rangers are
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: going to have a good year, you can actually buy
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the Rangers ETF You have.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: To care about the NHL, first of all. That's the prerequisite. Yeah.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: You definitely need to know about hockey, which I admittedly
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: don't know that much about hockey. But they picked these
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: because there's already some futures that launched on the CME
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: that are tied to these. And I think if these
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: do well, we likely could see the other leagues come in,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: NBA and NFL. But this is what they're starting with.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: 32 different ETFs, 32 different teams. Again, it's sort of
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: just looking at the team like you're looking at a stock,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: their roster, maybe, you know, with their schedules coming up,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you know, if they have momentum, all that, and you
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: can just bet on it, or you can even short it, right?
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: So let's say you like the Rangers, but hate the Canucks,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: or so you can actually just short and play different spreads.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's this convergence of sports betting and ETFs
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: that is now sort of all coming together.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, Ethan, what's actually in this ETF? I mean, these
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: are filings, right? So nothing's real yet. But like what
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: would you own if you were to purchase a share
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: of this?
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: I think you own nothing, right? Because what's interesting, there
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: are stocks out there that you could buy shares in
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: a sports team, right? Like Manchester United or the Braves even.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: So you actually like have claimed ticket sales and things
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: like that and you could benefit from it.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: There's like revenue that you can capture.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Totally. So if the team does well or you can
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: even buy stock in MSG, right? And that's not just
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: the Knicks. But if they do well and ticket sales
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: go up, you have a piece of that. This is
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: basically betting on how well the team is going to do.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: So in a way, it's just like sports betting, but
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: betting on the strength of these teams. So if you
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: like changes they made in the off season, or if
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: you think they have a week schedule coming up, you
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: can actually buy the team that you like. I think
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: looking at it through the lens of like stock picking, essentially,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: and you're basically just team picking here.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: What do we need to know about futures-based ETFs?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I think one thing to think about with these is, illiquidity, right?
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Like if they're not going to be really popular, you know,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: how are market makers going to handle these? Two, what
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: happens like the off season, right? So, you know, they
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: don't play- Oh, Stanley Cup, what's going down? So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: obviously there's news that comes out, there's trades and they
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: can move in that, but it's going to be a
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: couple of months of it just doing nothing. And then
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: obviously with futures, there's roll costs. These are going to
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: roll every month. They're going to reset at the end
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: of the season. So there's spreads in there that you
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: have to know Or be cognizant of. But that said,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I honestly don't know how these would behave. This is
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: literally a new area of the market. So, you know,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: how someone might hedge this, how it might be formed.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe just the bigger team ones have more interest in
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: some of the smaller ones. But yeah, it's definitely going
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: to be pretty interesting to see how these... It also.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Seems kind of complicated. Like, why not just use a
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: bookie or a sports betting app or... A prediction market app,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: you know, like why do we need an ETF for this?
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we debate this on the team all the time.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: And normally when you think about the success of an ETF,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: it's because it's made something easier, right? It's giving you
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: access to crypto or bonds in Latin America or something
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: like that. I use the CalSheet app, right? And it's very,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: very easy. It's very seamless. You can easily fund it.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: You can have all sorts of different bets. I read
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: through this methodology document of these NHL ETFs. And there's
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: 55 different inputs. So basically- 55?
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. What do they count as inputs?
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: There's like intra-game stats. So like basically if there's a penalty, right?
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Or how many goals your team scores, how many blocks
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: your goalie has, all that impacts the score. Then there's
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: sort of end of month stats. How many, are they
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: on a win streak, right? All these things sort of
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: factor in. So it's very, very complicated. Some of the
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: things that I think about is like, well, a lot
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: of times when the game is on, the market's closed, right?
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: And something with like cow sheet, that's always continuously running, right?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: 24 hours a day, you can bet during the games.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like when you're watching a game, you want
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: to maybe make bets in that moment. This is a
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: little bit harder with the ETF. So this is maybe
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: a longer term play. Like a diehard fan. Yeah, exactly.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: You really love this team.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: This is our year.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you buy the jersey and you buy the ETF,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Maybe the shares of the ETF come with jerseys that
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: you buy.
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  Speaker 1: That's actually a pretty good selling point. I would buy
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: the ETF just for the jersey.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: We're going to be in the merch business, but also
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: in investment management. So why... Why the NHL again? Is
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: this just because CME has some hockey heads and decided
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: to do some futures for the NHL?
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know. I'm thinking it
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  Speaker 1: was probably easier to get a licensing agreement with the
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: NHL versus the NBA and the NFL. Also, the hockey
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: season is pretty long. I know MLB is longer, but
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  Speaker 1: I think they had to start with a season that's
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: really long versus the NFL. So yeah, I think this
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: is why they started with the NHL teams. I know
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: probably most people are looking at it like, well, why NHL?
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  Speaker 1: But I think this is probably the reason why they
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: went with that one.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: But maybe it makes a good case study to start
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: with that too. And then you can take the results
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: to the big guys. Yeah, for sure.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: If this does well, if anything, probably NBA and NFL
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  Speaker 1: will be even more popular, right? So I think this
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: is a good sort of put, you know, dip your
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: toe in the water, see how these work, see if
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: there's any kind of remote interest.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. So just a reminder, where does the filing go
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: from here? It's hitting the SEC and now it's going
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: to enter a little bit of autopsy period?
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: For sure. They're going to get, you know, there could
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: be comments. The thing is, while this is probably a
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: good likelihood is because it's CME backed, right? These futures
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: already exist, which are approved. So with that, I think
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: there's probably a good likelihood these could get launched. If
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: there wasn't any sort of backing like that, I would
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: probably be a little bit more skeptical. But I think
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: these have a pretty good chance of getting approved.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: And there are 32 of them because there's one per team.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Yep, exactly.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: 32.
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  Speaker 1: If we don't have enough ETFs already.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I can't wait to see what the tickers are. They've
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: got to be like all over the place. Okay, so
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: the CME development with NHL. and these new ETF filings
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: is certainly like maybe one type of way that ETFs
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: are getting into sports. But there's other things that have
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: been happening this year. Why is all of this happening
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: in the first place? And like, why are ETFs even
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: looking at sports as like sort of this next great frontier?
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: So recently, there was this really great Bloomberg News article,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: and it was actually looking at Gen Z's sort of
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: view of asset classes and a lot of them were
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: thinking of sports betting as an asset class right so
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: actually looking at this not only for fun but actually
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: like i'm going to put real money into this i'm
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: going to add this as an investment so i think
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: that is happening along with just etf filings are getting
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: a little crazy yeah right and.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: That's what it something's happened maybe it was bitcoin where
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: it was just like you know what we really can
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: put anything into an etf And now it's like, how
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: much of the sports universe can we put into it? Oh, totally.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: They put single stocks, right? So we're back to this
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: very speculative investing culture. People want to make bigger, bigger bets.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: They're willing to go more all in on stuff. And
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: I think you know, leverage is sort of tapped out.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: They have all these single stock ones. Now it's like
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: sports betting. And this coincides with the growth of things
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: like Polymarket and CalSheet, right? And you're seeing sort of
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: the volumes there. So I think if they just put
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: in the ETF, it's like, well... And I don't know
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: how they'll leapfrog this, but let's say if you're underage, right,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and you can't open a sports betting account or a
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: sports book, you could buy an ETF, right? That sort
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: of kind of does the same thing. Yeah, so I
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: think this is just feeding that behavior.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: So let's just lay out the various things that are
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: also in filing stage. So there's the futures-based stuff that
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: the NHL is doing, prediction markets, and what's the likelihood
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: of that in Bloomberg Intelligence? You guys would classify that
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: as a novel idea, right?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think the NHL ones are novel too.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Novel too.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Yes. So this one, I know it's a fine line
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: between like prediction markets and like what these NHL ones
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: are doing versus like the prediction ones more binary, right?
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: So you're betting on a Super Bowl winner. If that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: happens or it doesn't happen, you're going to win or
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: lose all your money.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Some of the issues are starting to do these too.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: And not only with sports, with other like sort of
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: economic news too, but- Yeah.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: The Fed would be central to some of these, I think.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Or a recession, things like that. But yeah,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: you can pick the Super Bowl winner, which again, we're
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: obviously very pro-ETF, right? I don't see the reason why
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: you would do that versus doing it on CalSheet. I
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: don't understand what advantage the ETF is really giving you.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: But yeah, these are in filing. Nothing's been approved yet.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Those ones I think could see more skepticism from the SEC. Again,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: these are all going to be backed by Kalshi and stuff. Yeah,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: there's sort of that end of the sports betting spectrum
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: happening as well.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: And then the other one that we, I think, have
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: briefly mentioned previously, the subversive all-season sports ETF, yet another filing.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Great Matt Levine column about it in Money Stuff a
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: couple months ago. What's that strategy look like?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: This is actually kind of brilliant because I think they've
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: This PM found a way that you could just fund
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: their gambling habits, right? So, this one essentially you would
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: be giving your money to this fund and they'd be
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: making all these different bets, right? Based on some algorithm
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: or they're looking where maybe odds might be.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: It's literally a sports book.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And then so, this PM would make the
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: decisions for you. So, it's almost like a basket of bets, right? So,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: they'll be using some algorithm to figure out what these
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: odds aren't right. We actually think you should bet on this.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: But again... If I'm using the app, I think part
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: of the most fun of betting is I want that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: rush of betting. I don't go to Vegas and give
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: you my money to gamble.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, I could encourage you to do that. It's
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: more fun for me that way.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Don't you want to go put the
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: numbers down on the roulette table? I want someone else
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: to do it.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you money and you can use
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: your Calchi to do it for me.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I don't want to watch someone else have all the fun.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: So that's part of the... The reason why, this could
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: maybe do okay.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if he's really good at picking winners, like,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, it could work out.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Eric had this great analogy. Remember the movie Casino? Sam Rothstein, right?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: He's basically like him. And he's like the best, like,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: bookie in the country. So, like, if he was running
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: an ETF, I don't know, I'd probably give him money
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: to run. But yeah, and so there's that as well
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to sort of a more diversified, quote unquote, basket of
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: bets that they're making.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: How do you think that SEC will look at that
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: one in the novelty scale?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: That one, I think, could probably more likelihood than the
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: prediction markets one. Again, this is all on a scale.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: That one, maybe. And I can actually see people making
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the case that this is somehow uncorrelated asset class, right?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I'm just doing an allocation of these random bets and
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Over the long term, maybe it's uncorrelated and it makes
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: money for me. So I could see it from that angle. Again,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I think that's a stretch. Yeah, that's one. It's a
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: little bit more diversified. I think maybe has a better
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: chance of having some success.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, just to continue to try and zoom out a
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: little bit. What's actually happening here, to me, it feels
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: like we're at yet another, you know, highs of a
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: bull market. And there's a thing that starts to happen,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: which is, things get really experimental and we saw it
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: previously a couple of years ago and it feels like
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: we're back there. What do you think of that?
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, we always, we've wanted a bull market.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: This is what it looks like, right? Yeah. You kind
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: of start to get these filings that are, you know,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: they're really pushing the envelope and I've learned not to
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: dismiss these and they might sound ridiculous. And we thought
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: stuff sounded ridiculous five years ago and now they're like, yeah,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: they're like normal and they're big businesses in the ETF market. So,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: You know, even the SEC, it's not their job to
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: tell you.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: If it's wise.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: They told us this recently. It's not their job. It's
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: not my job to tell you. We're not judging. Yeah, exactly.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Does it help by bringing these products into the market? No,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: it encourages a lot of bad behavior, but we're not
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: here to tell you that. But again, you know, I
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: think it also just shows how much people want stuff
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: in an ETF, right? And just how much the ETF
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: has grown and what they're willing to put into it.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we've totally just moved away from broad diversified
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: baskets of stocks. Now you're literally just picking specific things.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Well, hopefully it's both and maybe one more than the other.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: But it's also just worth mentioning though, I mean, maybe
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: part of the reason for all of this is in
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: your Calci update, you might be betting with $ 100, but
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: once you get into a brokerage, there's a lot more
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: money that you can be playing with.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, no, that's a great point. And think about
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: then options and stuff tied around that, right? So think
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: about how insane just 2x levered single stocks are. There's
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: options on those, right, that are way more levered. So,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: you know, if these hit and now you could have
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: options around these and you have this whole ecosystem built
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: around it, it makes it very easy, you know, to
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: open up in your account. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: pretty interesting time.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: All right. More followings to watch. Ethan, thanks for joining
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: me on Trades.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time, you can
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: or wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: hear from you. Hit us up on social. Trillions is
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: produced by Magnus Hendriksen and Kishav Pandya. Amy Keene is
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: our executive producer. Cheryl Brumley is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Bye.