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Author Tom Clavin Discuses His Newest Book - "Vengeance" · Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: All right, thirty five minutes past the hour. He is
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: one of our favorite authors. I don't know, maybe we've
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: had Tom on six or eight times over the years,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: talking about six or eight different books. Tom claven and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: the book is Vengeance The Last Stands of Custer, Crazy
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Horse and Sitting Bull. Tom, welcome back to the show.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: How are you.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm fine, Thank you for having me back.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: You know inside your subtitle is I think an interesting word,
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  Speaker 1: and it is the plural last stands because we think
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  Speaker 1: of Custer's last stand. But you've expanded this story. Tell
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: us why.
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  Speaker 2: That was a big reading for writing the book, because
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  Speaker 2: it's a little big one is also called, of course
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  Speaker 2: Custer's Last Stand, and so many things I've written about
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  Speaker 2: it having so Custer centric. But it was the last
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  Speaker 2: stand for Crazy Horse in the sense that the victory
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: that a little big one, meant that the US Army
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: was going to come after him with a vengeance. Same
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: thing for Sitting Bowl. It was the beginning of the
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  Speaker 2: end of their not it's just there their careers, but
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  Speaker 2: they are their lives really because a year later that
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  Speaker 2: the Crazy Crazy Use was killed and eventually Sitting Book,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Sitting Bowl was murdered, so it was the last stance
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  Speaker 2: for the Plains Indians too.
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  Speaker 1: In addition to Custer, What was it that drew you
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  Speaker 1: to this story? Because this story has been written of
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  Speaker 1: so many times in so many different ways. Why did
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  Speaker 1: you take a swing at this?
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  Speaker 2: I think one reason why is I asked myself, why
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  Speaker 2: haven't I written about the Little Big One battle before?
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  Speaker 2: When you think about it, there's numerous books about Gettysburg,
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  Speaker 2: There's numerous books about the Alamo, There's numerous books about
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  Speaker 2: a Little Big One. But I wanted to put my
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: stamp on it. What do I think about this? These characters?
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  Speaker 2: What are the people? Are there's the information just that
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  Speaker 2: overlooked or not revealed before? Are there interesting angles to explore?
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  Speaker 2: Are their characters other than the main ones Custer and
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  Speaker 2: crazy horses and sitting bowl that are interesting characters to
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  Speaker 2: write about? So I started asking all these questions and
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, the one hundred and fifty anniversary is
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: coming up in June twenty twenty six, Maybe this is
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  Speaker 2: the appropriate time to write a book.
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  Speaker 1: Where do you uncover information that is maybe not so
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  Speaker 1: readily available for a story that's this old.
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  Speaker 2: You know, that's a good question, because in a way
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  Speaker 2: it's kind of mysterious to me too. I start, I
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  Speaker 2: start unraveling like a big ball string. I started researching,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: and keep pulling the string and pulling the string, and
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  Speaker 2: you know, going from different institutions of research to another.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of material now on available online that
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  Speaker 2: wasn't the case ten years ago or fifteen years ago.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of all histories that are available now
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  Speaker 2: that weren't available before. So it's kind of like, I'm
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: not aware of what I'm doing when I'm doing and
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  Speaker 2: I know that sounds kind of weird, but I'm researching.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not constantly aware of what I'm doing.
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  Speaker 2: I'm just following my nose where it leaves me.
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  Speaker 1: Where do you find the information about the Indian side
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: of this? You know, clearly you've got the story of
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  Speaker 1: Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Are is there history as
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  Speaker 1: well chronicled as the history of Custer?
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  Speaker 2: Not quite, because the history of Custer and that's that
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  Speaker 2: point of view and that side of things all a
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  Speaker 2: lot of it's written down, and was written down at
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: the time, and written down soon afterwards, and writ written
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  Speaker 2: ever since. So much of the Indian point of view
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  Speaker 2: is oral history. And thankfully, in the years after a
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  Speaker 2: little big war and there were you know, anthropologists, researches,
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  Speaker 2: other people that track down some of the Indian participants
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  Speaker 2: in the battle and recorded their stories. So there are
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  Speaker 2: all histories that exist, not from Crazy Horse himself because
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  Speaker 2: he that's the way, like I said a year later,
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  Speaker 2: but sitting bowl for example, he would be interviewed by
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  Speaker 2: newspaper journalists and you could find these newspaper interviews and
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  Speaker 2: in the decades after he was some of the scouts
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  Speaker 2: that were uh that wrote for Custer who survived, gave
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  Speaker 2: all history. So they were that material out there.
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  Speaker 1: Thank goodness, Tom, what what one thing stands out in
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  Speaker 1: your mind that you personally learned about these three main
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  Speaker 1: characters in doing your research.
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  Speaker 2: You know, one of the most surprising things to me
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  Speaker 2: is that you know it's Custom's last stand. We know
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  Speaker 2: that George Armstrong Custer died at a little big hore
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  Speaker 2: in battle, but it was such a powerful impact on
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  Speaker 2: the Custer family because he was killed, his brother Tom
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  Speaker 2: was killed, his brother Boston was killed, his nephew Oudie
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  Speaker 2: Reed was killed, his brother in law Jimmy Calhoune was killed.
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  Speaker 2: It was a devastating loss for the entire Custer family.
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  Speaker 2: You can imagine what it was like for the Custer
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  Speaker 2: parents back in Michigan. I think they were when they
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  Speaker 2: were told they lost three sons and grandson and a
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  Speaker 2: son in law. So it was that was that was
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  Speaker 2: kind of surprising to me. Also surprising to me was
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  Speaker 2: that they were women warriors who were part of the
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  Speaker 2: Sioux and shy And coalition, and I tell some of
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  Speaker 2: their stories in the book too, that that how how
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  Speaker 2: a very male centric society they had to you know,
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  Speaker 2: everybody on deck when the cavalry attacked, including women warriors.
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  Speaker 1: When the story first broke across the country, I would
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  Speaker 1: imagine the reaction was pretty strong and very anti American Indian.
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  Speaker 1: But over the years it has evolved and changed. Were
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  Speaker 1: you able to as you looked in research through this,
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  Speaker 1: could you see that? I mean, is it evident that
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  Speaker 1: the feelings that people have about this event have evolved
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  Speaker 1: and changed over time?
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  Speaker 2: Well? I think they also had to, because, as you
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  Speaker 2: mentioned at the beginning of your question, the impact on
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  Speaker 2: American society was very powerful. Eighteen seventy six was a
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  Speaker 2: centennial year and in the midst of all the celebrations
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  Speaker 2: leading up to July fourth, of America's history and America's
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  Speaker 2: greatness and everything else that was America. And then to
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  Speaker 2: get this news coming from Montana that the most famous
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  Speaker 2: cavalry officers of the United States had had been not
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  Speaker 2: been defeated, but killed along with most of his men,
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  Speaker 2: was a very profound effect on American society. So and yes,
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  Speaker 2: as you pointed out, very anti Indian initially. So the
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  Speaker 2: reaction was so powerful and so extreme that inevitably the
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  Speaker 2: attitude had to change over the decades.
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  Speaker 1: Since why does this story endure? Why one hundred and
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  Speaker 1: fifty years later is America so fascinated with and because
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: you know, you've expanded this story beyond Custer. Why the
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  Speaker 1: enduring intrigue?
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  Speaker 2: I think one reason is because when you think about
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  Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds of American battles on American soil, you
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  Speaker 2: think of, you know, the Alamo, Gettysburg, a little Bighorn.
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  Speaker 2: So there's certain signature battles I guess you could call
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  Speaker 2: them that we keep coming back to over and over again.
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  Speaker 2: And I think also because of Custer was a huge celebrity,
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  Speaker 2: I think we sort of forget that he was. He
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: was a major headline maker throughout his career. Civil War,
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  Speaker 2: hero of the fighting, colonel of the planes, and so
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  Speaker 2: because of what happened to him, I think the story
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  Speaker 2: resonates over and over and over again. We keep coming
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  Speaker 2: back to it. Tom.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: When you finish a book like this and you type
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  Speaker 1: the final page, do you know that you've typed the
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  Speaker 1: final page?
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  Speaker 2: Well? The process is that yet? I know what I've
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  Speaker 2: typed the final page, and I sort of have to
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  Speaker 2: give the manuscript up to my editor, and then there's
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  Speaker 2: going to be revisions, and there's going to be corrections,
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  Speaker 2: and there's going to be proof reading. There's a whole
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: process that's involved in it. It's almost like you never
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  Speaker 2: really know for sure when the final final act is
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  Speaker 2: done until somebody tells you, Okay, we're done, We're going
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  Speaker 2: to go. It's going to the printing plant.
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  Speaker 1: What tells you inside that you have satisfied your own
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  Speaker 1: standard for telling the story?
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  Speaker 2: Oh? I never satisfied my on standards telling a story.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like I come close but never reach it.
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  Speaker 1: How you feel about this book.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a very exciting book. I think it's
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  Speaker 2: as accurate as I could be. As well researched, but
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  Speaker 2: there's a lot of intriguing characters, and I think there's
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  Speaker 2: a real taste turner. So I've been told that the
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  Speaker 2: book is well researched but reads like a novel that's
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  Speaker 2: actually a high compliment.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that speaks to the characters that are involved
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  Speaker 1: in that story. As I as I read through much
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  Speaker 1: of it, I was intrigued by those other names that
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  Speaker 1: we don't know from history, that are part of the
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  Speaker 1: history that make up this story.
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  Speaker 2: Tom. Thank you, yes, thank you very much. I appreciate
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  Speaker 2: your time.
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  Speaker 1: Tom Claven with us this morning. And the book is Vengeance,
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  Speaker 1: the Last Stands of Custer, Crazy Horse, and Sitting Bowl.
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  Speaker 1: And like you said, the characters, the names that you
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  Speaker 1: have never heard, the things that you're going to learn
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  Speaker 1: are are remarkable. I think you'll enjoy the book. One
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  Speaker 1: of our great friends here on the program, author Tom
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  Speaker 1: Claven on The Morning Show with Preston Scott