Latest / Stuff You Should Know / Why Do People Believe In Faith Healing?

Transcript

Why Do People Believe In Faith Healing? · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and this is stuff you should know. We're about to
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: lay our hands all over you. Who knows what will happen?
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe nothing, who knows? Yeah? That was gross? How so
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: lay your hands on me? That a bon Jovie song? Uh? No?
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Hold on? Who was that? Was that? Bon job? Oh?
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Thompson Twins? Maybe Jerry, did you hear she just said
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: duff Leppard. No, I don't think that's pour some sugar
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: on me, good cob. What it's wrong with you to
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: pour some hands on me? No? Lay your hands on me?
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: On me is like, Uh, I think it's a Tompson
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Twins song or something like that. Well, that's not the
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: one I'm thinking of. I don't know what you're thinking of.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the bon Jovi song. I'll be the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: bon Jovi song is dirtier than this song. Uh. Then
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Thompson Twins, Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Yeah, Thompson
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Twins were real clean cut, not bon Jovi. Ended up
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: weirdly seeing bon Jovi in concert. Uh two times. I'll
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: bet that was rid. I'll bet you're like, what am
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I doing here? Well? One time they opened up for
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: thirty eight Special? How did I get here? Wait? Wait, wait, wait,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: wait a second, I'm sorry you walk right that's that way? Yeah?
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Does that mean you intended to be at the thirty
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: eight Special concerts? Oh yeah, dude. Yeah. It was like
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: twelve all right, way into the southern rock scene back then,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and still am to some degree. I still like me
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: them some thirty eight Special. Uh. And then bon Jovi
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: opened up. It was before they were uh, you know,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: before they were bond VI, like they were opening up
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: for bands. Well, sure, yeah. And then I saw them again.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: I won't name names, but I saw them again in
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: high school at the peak of their fame, when a
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: person at my high school had bought two tickets and
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: could not get any of the girls at school to
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: go with him. Weird, during the height of bon Jovi's fame. Yeah,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: and so this guy must have been a real dog.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I felt bad for this person, and so I went
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: and saw bon Jovi with this person. And that's just
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the kind of guy I was back then. These days,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I would have said buzz off. Are you still friends
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: with this guy? Okay? Does he listen to the podcast? Uh? Maybe? Well,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: let's just edit out me calling him a dog. Then
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he grew into a fine specimen. Okay. Well,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: as you know, I can play all of bon Jovi's
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Slippery when Wet on the Quaker oat Boxes in my
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: air band. Oh that's right, yep. Although I never saw
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: him in concert, well, I gotta say that that second Uh, like,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: I never would have paid to go see them, But
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: it wasn't bad. Yeah, I wouldn't think it would be.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're they're pros. They know what they're doing.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: You know. So the first concert not so great. I
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: mean for an opening band. You know, I got Runaway.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: That was kind of the only notable song they had
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: at the time. Um, that Tom Petty's song. No, No No, No,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: She's a little Runaway. I didn't know it was. I
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: thought that was Thompson Twins. This has been a great
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: open Yeah, especially for people who are interested in faith healing.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: You're like, who are these guys. Let's get to it,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: shall we? Yes? Okay, so we're talking today about faith healing.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: We've actually talked about some of this before, I would
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: refer everybody to our two thousand eight twenty minute long
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: how Prayer Healing episode works? Remember of that. Nope, that
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: that whole that cardiology study about intercessory prayer didn't ring
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: a bell with you at all. A little bit that
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: was that's where it found. It's it's purchased originally. So
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: this is much much bigger, broader picture that we're looking at. Right,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: But when you talk about faith healing, there are basically
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: two types that people kind of lump into two different categories.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: One is prayer. Right, There's this idea and it's it's
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: a pretty widely held idea among people all around the
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: world of different religions, of different cultures that by praying
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: to God, you're kind of beaming some well wishes to
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: God in the hopes that He acts as a bit
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: of a satellite and beams them down onto the person
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: you're you're praying for, whether it be like that they
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: they the ants that have taken up residents in their
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: cast go away, or um, that they get over their cancer,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: or that they have a better day than you know
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: they're having, um, whatever it is. If you step back
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: and look at it, what you're talking about is completely
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: senseless as far as science is concerned. And it's a
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: form of faith healing. It's it's saying I believe that
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: by praying, I can affect something about this this person's
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: physical or mental state, and that's one form of faith healing. Yeah,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and for me, I'm not a religious guy anymore as
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: people know. But uh, if someone says to me for
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: any reason that they're going to pray for me, depending
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: on who it is in the mood I'm in, it
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: can vary from me just sort of quality, Like I
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: would never confront someone over that or say don't do that.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in that. You don't bear your teeth
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and hiss at him. But it might in my own
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: brain either be like whatever all the way to you
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: know what, I'll take that, thank you. Well, depending on
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: what kind of um procedure you're going in for, somebody
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: says that you may want to be like whoa, whoa,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Just hold off on that one. Okay, what do you mean?
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: So there was a study, Yeah, there was a study
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: on intercessory prayer and it was a pretty good study
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: using the scientific method that cut people up into three
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: different categories. It was and I think two patients all
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: receiving the exact same procedure coronary bypass surgery at six
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: different hospitals, and three groups of people, um who I
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: think like represented Catholics, uh nondenominational Christians, and I think
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Carmelite nuns were all approached and asked to pray for
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: these people. These carmelized nuns, carmel lite nuns, they're not
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: nearly as delicious they're they're regular nuns. So the the
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: three groups prayed for these people, and they said they
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: prayed for them based on their first name and last initial,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: so please help John C. To feel better. And then
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: they specifically, all of them prayed specifically for a successful
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications. Those
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: are the two the two requirements that they used their
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: first name, last initial, and then they include that however
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: else they wanted to pray is just totally fine. And
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: they studied these groups that were actually prayed for and
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: they divided them up into three groups. Right, there was
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: a group that did not receive any prayer. There was
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a group that did receive prayer, but we're told they
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: may or may not be receiving prayer. Then there was
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: a third group that was that received prayer and were
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: told that they were receiving prayer. And then when they
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: went back and looked at these two patients, they found
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: that the group that received prayer and knew they were
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: receiving prayer fared worse than both to the other groups,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and that actually the group that didn't receive any prayer
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: at all fair the best of the three. So if
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: you're going and getting a cardiac bypass surgery, you may
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: want to say, just just don't pray for me this
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: time around. Okay. Yeah, And was this a Grabster article? Yeah? Um,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: he points out in what we may get touch on
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: this a bit more later, but he points out that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: it's just it's really tough to scientifically study intercessory prayer.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: And I don't remember if we covered that ten years
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: ago or not. Um, but it's just, you know, sample
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: sizes are tough. Um. The measuring of the health outcome
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: like is hard because did they live for a week,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: did they live for the rest of their you know,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: what would have been a long long life. Uh. He
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: mentions the sharpshooter effect, which is there are so many
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: potential outcomes that anyone can group something together and say
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: what we learned this, and then you know who's doing
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: the praying, How hard are they praying, how long are
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: they praying, what God are they praying to. It's just
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: it's tough to study something like that. And if if
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: prayer actually does have an impact, if there's a group
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: that's a control group that's not being prayed for, how
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: do you control for like the friends and family who
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: are actually praying for them and interfering in the study.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: So there's you know, people have taken this quite seriously.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: They studied it seriously, but they've they keep running up
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: into these conceptual walls as far as the structure of
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: the study is concerned, and no one's been able to
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: figure it out. But that coronary bypass study was about
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: as close as any of them came. But even still,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: that one was fraught with methodological methodological problems. So intercessory prayer,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: out of all of the types of faith healing, are
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: probably the most investigated through science and scientific studies pure
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: viewed journal studies. The other side of faith healing is
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the kind that probably comes to mind when somebody brings
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: up faith healing and that is usually an evangelical preacher
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: putting his hands on you and casting out the demons
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: or casting out the disease, or doing something to where
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: the power of God is coursing through that person and
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: getting rid of your disease or condition or whatever. That's
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the other type of faith healing, and that's the one
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: that most people think of you. In the last however,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: many minutes that was had a great band name, and
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I wonder if you can guess what it was, cast
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: the Demons Out? No, that would be the album title
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: profitbly Lay evangelical Preacher, No no, no conceptual balls. Oh nice, Okay,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: that would be kind of like a Thompson Twins cover band. Uh.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: So you said he in the terms of the faith healers,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and you generally see this more as a man that
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: does this um in my research at least, But there
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: was a woman UM in the sixties and seventies it
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: was very popular named Catherine Coleman who UM was a
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: faith healer. And you know, it looks like she should
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: have been on the on he haa or something with her.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: This just great lacey long dresses that they were in
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies. Uh, and in nineteen sixty seven,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: they did a case study and again these are problematic
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: but because of sample size, but they studied twenty three
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: people that she supposedly healed, um and they found out
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: later on that none of them were healed. And in fact,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: one woman, they do this this old trick where they're like,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: you know, get out of your wheelchair and walk over
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: to me. Uh. And this woman in a wheelchair had
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: spinal cancer. She threw off her back brace and ran
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: across the stage. Uh. And then they followed up with her.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Her spine collapsed the next day and she died four
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: months later. So these mentioning that because all of these
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: people are when you go to one of these performances,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: everyone thinks that they're healed, and no one here's the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: follow up story that's in that auditorium, right, Yeah, And
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of the success stories are anecdotal for sure,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: with with little or no follow up, and when there
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: is follow up, it's usually finds that that's not the case.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: But so how about this, chuck, Let's go take a
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: commercial and when'll come back, we'll tell we'll tell everybody
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: what it would be like to go to a faith
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: healing sermon and then after that we'll talk about the
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: skeptical view of the whole thing. Alright, so we promised to,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: um tell you what it's like to go to one
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: of these faith healing Um what do you call them?
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I call them performances. But um, it depends on what
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: type it is. It could be a service, a sermon,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: a revival. Um. Yeah, probably a revival is usually a
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: good way to put it, which is also a sermon
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: in a service. Uh. One thing you're gonna have in
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: your pocket is some cash, money or a checkbook, alright.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Imagine they probably take credit cards these days, because there
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: is generally some kind of money changing hands at one
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: of these events, whether or not you have paid a
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: fee to get in or made a quote unquote donation
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: while you were there to get up on stage and
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: have your your chance to faint in front of thousands
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: of people. Right. So usually, UM, we'll take Benny Hin
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: as an example of what these things can be like.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: So Benny Hin is a he's a faith healer. Um,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure I believe he's nondenominational. But all of
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: this stuff traces back. Actually I didn't realize this. I
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: don't know if you did or not. But all evangelical,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity actually finds its source in one
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: place in nineteen o six called the Azeusus Street Revival.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Have you heard of that? Yeah? And and we should
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: point out you said charismatic. Um Ed is quick to
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: point out that charismatic religion doesn't mean boy, that that
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: person up there preaching shore has a lot of charisma.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: It's actually a form of Christianity that is rooted in uh, Pentecostalism. Yes,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: that that basically means that they believe that God is
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: in the building that day and literally can do things
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: in that room. Yep. So there's a lot so and
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: this is actually I didn't realize this either until I
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: started researching this article. There's a pretty big schism actually
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: in Christianity today between Pentecostalism, which is a form of
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: charismatic Christianity, and traditional Christianity. And with Pentecostalism and charismatic Christianity.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Because you believe that God is in the room, you
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: also believe that God can operate through you, and there's
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: certain gifts that are available to you. There's the gift
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: of knowledge, which is just you just know stuff because
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit or God is telling you this. There's
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the gift of tongues called gloss alalia, where you suddenly
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: start speaking in tongues. We cover that in earnest I
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: don't think so. Man. If not, we definitely should. We
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: did snake handling, which definitely fits a great one charismatic.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: It definitely does. But the basis of charismatic is that
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: God is part of your everyday life and can do
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: things to you, imbue you with divine ours. And one
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: of those divine gifts is called the gift of healing. Now,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: not everybody has it, but potentially anybody could have it
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: if if you your soul has been baptized anointed to
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: where you are saved. Plus basically, and that's a big
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: theme that you find in charismatic religion is that the
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: more somebody speaks in tongues, the more somebody is able
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: to heal through faith. The more somebody is wealthy, I
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: think we need to do a prosperity gospel episode by itself,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: but this ties into that as well. The idea of
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: all behind all those things is that those people who
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: are the wealthiest who speak in tongues, the most who
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: can faith heal? Are the are the ones who are
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: UM who are saved more than other people. That's charismatic religion.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: The other side, the traditional origin religion that you're probably
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: familiar with, is like WHOA, the scriptures, the Bible, that
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: stuff doesn't talk about any of this, and it does,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: it is not in the way that you guys are
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: interpreting it. So there's a real there's a collision going
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: on in Christianity today between people who say God is
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: part of your everyday life and other people say, no,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: God is in scripture and that's where you where you
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: find your answers to God, not in you know, Holy
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Laughter or gloss Lalia or anything like that. And so
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: there's this kind of traditional Christian group in America that
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: is losing ground very quickly to charismatic Christians who are
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: UM gaining more and more members, and one of the
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: ways that they're doing that is through faith healing. Is
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: that true? Is it growing? Yeah? Apparently one and every
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: four American Christians is a UM Pentecostal. Now interesting, I
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: think it's the fastest growing group in America by far.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So none of this is new. This this all started
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. As far as faith healing goes. Uh,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: people like John Alexander Dowie, Um, people like uh ru
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: uh Hepapa Tippappetta. So I like the second one more tip.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I'll bet Rule likes it more too. Uh. Frank Sandford
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: not Fred Sandford, Benson Idahosa. These are all faith healers
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: who have done everything from said I can he'll like
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: raise people from the dead too. I am actually Jesus Christ.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: So it kind of has run the gamut throughout history.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: People like Benny hen and um, who's the other guy, Yeah,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Peter pop Off are some of the well not they've
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: been around for a while too, but they're they're the
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: the newer version of this nineteenth century um huckster. Yeah.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: And so so as I was starting with the Benny
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Hint thing, that Benny Hints service or revival is about
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: twenty four hours long. Man, they maybe actually a little
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: longer because I think it can. It's usually of six
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: services each about four and a half hours each. Okay,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: so we're talking like twenty seven hours of this revival.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: And the whole thing is basically stage. You're created or
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: carried out in a way that you you're getting more
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: and more excited, more and more jazzed, and and from
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: the perspective of the believers who are there, the Holy
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Spirit is now coming to this place. And you've got
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: all this, like all the its appearances going on through
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: holy laughter where people are just ecstatically laughing and they
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: feel so great, or they're speaking in tongues and they're
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: writhing on the floor. The Holy Spirit is present in
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the building. Right and after everybody is good and worked
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: up and the Holy Spirit is present, finally Benny Hin
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: will come onto the stage and the revival really truly begins.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Then then that's when the healing starts. Yeah, but here's
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the thing. Like growing up in church, like the Holy
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Spirit was in the room every Sunday, but it's just
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: a different thing with these more um. I guess any
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: kind of preaching as some kind of a performance um
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: or sermon is. But like in the nineteen twenties is when,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: especially with Amy Simple McPherson, is when these really highly produced,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: dramatic stage shows started to kind of take place. I
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: was I was reading about her. It blows my mind
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: that she does not have multiple movies made about her. Yeah,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: she was extraordinarily interesting and she was based in l
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: A too. That means we're really surprised there should be. Uh,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of I would cast who should
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I his career? Should I make Jennifer Lawrence would probably
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: do a pretty good Amy simple McPherson. You think, yeah,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: I think so. I think she could carry that. All right, Well,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: stay tuned. We'll see if you have the casting powers
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: as well. What if it turns out to be Hugh
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Jackman very brave performance? Um so she Yeah, she really
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: got things going in the nineteen twenties and she used
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: everything from props like ships and and trojan horses to motorcycles. Um, Benny, hen,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I mean did you watch did you go into too?
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: A YouTube rabbit hole? With these things like he will
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: he's one of the most um physically uh say, charismatic,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: but I don't want to confuse it, but in the
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: true sense of the word charismatic, physically aggressive and charismatic.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And that he's he's running all over the place, He's
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: using his coat, his jacket. Two, he will wave it
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: over the crowd and the first twenty rows of people
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: will fall back into their seats as if blown by
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: back by the spirit. Um. He will you know, put
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: his hands on on a guy who will jump up
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and kick his feet out and land on his back.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: He'll get up and he'll do it again. He'll get
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: up and he'll do it again. And they have what's
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: called catchers on stage, these uh, these kind of big
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: men usually who who catch these people and put them
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: on the stage, help him back up again, and they're
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: all a part of the if you've ever seen well,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you never saw Fletch one, right, No? I didn't. Was
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: there a preacher in Flesh one? No? And Fletch two.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I'm waiting for you like, oh, no, I saw the sequel.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't fledged two. That's what the
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: story was, was what's his face? Arlie Army from Full
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Metal Jacket played a faith healer um who was using
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, we can go ahead and say it here.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: A lot of these people use tricks like earpieces and
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: there's someone off stage reading them cards that people fill
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: in and say, Hi, I'm so and so and I
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: have this ailment. And then they will put in the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: earpiece and they will say I'm thinking of someone. Uh,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: perhaps their name is James or Jim or Jamie and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: they have something wrong with their foot and then all
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, the guy who filled out that card says, oh,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: you're talking about me. Get him on stage, lay the hands,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: and by all accounts, these people are so caught up
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: in this religious hysteri area of the moment and the
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: drama that sometimes they do faint, right, So this is
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: that's I'm glad you brought that up, because I think
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: it's really important to get across. Like, the people who
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: attend these revivals are true believers and they are caught
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: up in What they would say is they would describe
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: all this to the Holy Spirit flowing through them being
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: at this revival, being you know, the part of the
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: energy in the air. What skeptics would say is, well,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: actually this is all just part of a you know, masssteria,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: mass delusion regardless, it's basically two sides of the same coin.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Whether it's divine or whether it's internal. These people are
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: experiencing fainting. They are they are falling backwards, and to them,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: they feel like they're just being lifted right off of
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: their feet. They are like experiencing this holy laughter or whatever.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: They're not they're not faking in in the sense that
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: you and I would be like, Oh, these these people
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: are faking. They're participating in something that is happening, that's
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: connecting them to everybody around them and the people on
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: stage at the very least in the ones that are
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: the most legitimate. Well yeah, they're they're either that or
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: they sometimes they are actual plants. Okay, So so here's
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: so there's let me give you three examples. Benny Hin,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Peter pop Off in Hobart Freeman. They represent three different
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: versions of faith healers. Benny Hin, his thing is is,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: like you're saying, he runs around on stage and waves
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: his coat. His thing is he is healing like a
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: specific disease. At that moment, he'll be like, I can
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: feel the cancer being healed in this room. And then
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: after that he'll be like, who's felt that? Whose cancer was?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Just He'll come on up here and somebody will run
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: up and be like, you just here my cancer. Thanks
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: a lot, right. He apparently does not use He was
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: tracked by a documentary filmmaker and investigated pretty thoroughly back
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: in two thousand. He apparently does not use plants. Um
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: he apparently did. I don't really know enough about the
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: guy to know how true his faith is, but it's
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: it says a lot that he wasn't caught using plants
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: or any kind of technical assistance whatsoever. People have planted
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: people there though, that are healthy, like sting operations at
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Benny Hin shows. Yeah. Yeah, so that they would plant
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: it like a whatever, some new show would plant someone
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: in the audience, have them go up on stage and
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: said they were healed, and he would tout them as
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: being healed. And then when he's interviewed and said, hey,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: this person was a plant. They weren't even sick, and
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: he said that she was sick and you healed. And
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: his response was literally like, well, you know, I'm I'm
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: just a man like you, and I'm trying to do better,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: and I'm always trying to do better. So that's not
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: an answer. So that's actually a pretty pretty common um investigation.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: What they're doing is that's remember how we said like
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that the God or the Holy Spirit gives you divine gifts,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: and one of those gifts is the gift of knowledge. Well,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: what they were doing was challenging the idea that God
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: was giving them information based on the idea, right, God
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have given you this bad information That was a lie,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: so therefore you don't have this pipeline to God. I
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: could see Bennie Hin just being like, hey, as happens, right,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: He's he's famous for the saying that, uh, the second
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: category is exposed legitimate, straight up fraud, and that the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: poster child of that is Peter pop Off. He was
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: he was exposed, exposed at the kind of the height
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: of his earlier career. Yet he still makes a ton
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: of money today selling holy water water. He don't he
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't sell it. If you send a donation and as
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: a thank you gifts, he'll send you your holy spring water.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Get it right, So, and then people who have gotten
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: this holy spring water come on and say, right after that,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: I got a check from the I R S that
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting and now my house is paid off.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you Peter pop Off. Right, that's what he's doing now.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: So he went bankrupt getting caught red handed. The amazing
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Randy James Randy exposed Peter pop Off on Johnny Carson's
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Tonight Show in front of millions of people. Totally ended
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: the guy's career right there. He went bankrupt very quickly afterwards,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: like he was. They were the ones using the earpiece. Right. Yeah,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: So Peter pop Off was getting like you said, basically
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: the premise of Fletch Too. His wife was going through
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: prayer cards, saying people's names, saying the details they'd written
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: down about what diseases they wanted cured and what their
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: prayers were. And Peter Popoff was being fed this information
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: through an earpiece. Well, he was pretending that he was
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: getting this information from God the gift of knowledge and
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: wowing people seven days a week, six days a week
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: at his revivals and making a lot of money. James
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Randy went to one of his revivals Number one, inserted
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: a plant in there a couple of times, a few
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: different plants, so disputed his gift of knowledge. But then
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: also made a recording of the radio transmission of his
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: wife and then plays it on the Carson Show. So
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: ends this guy's career. Um, this is in. By two
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: thousand five, he was back to making like twenty four
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: million dollars a year through divine debt relief. How did
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: people not pick up on that in the audience, I
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: don't know. I think it's probably all I know how
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: they pick up on it, And that's part of what
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: makes this so sad is they are so desperate for health,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: good health that they will believe anything. They don't think,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: oh my god, this guy just called my name out
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: of thin air, uh and said all these details that
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: a weight that I wrote down on an index card
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: on the way in and handed to somebody Like, they
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: don't make that connection. So I think that's a pretty
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: good point. They're either desperate to be he old or
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: this is like their genuine belief that some guy has
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: come in and been like, oh, this is what you believe, Well,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: let me figure out how to work that into my
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: into my scam. Either way, it's it's I mean, don't
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: you you shouldn't. Shouldn't. I'm not saying you are. I'm
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: talking to you people out on podcast Lane her like
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: what suckers, what chumps? That's that's not for you to judge.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: These these people are are in some cases being very
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: much preyed upon. Oh yeah, not in all cases, though
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: there are so so far, We've got Benny Hin, We've
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: got Peter pop Off. I know it took me forever
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: to be like that's not a that's not a typographical error.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: But I can't tell you how many times I tuned
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: in to watch Benny Hill. I was like, man, when
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: am I going to learn? They're both? And then the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: third type is um exemplified by a guy named Hobart Freeman.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: You would call these people utterly and complete true believers, right,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: they are the ones who die because they're walking the walk.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Actually not Hobart Freeman. He died in part of complications
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: from gang green and his leg that he wouldn't go
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: get medical treatment from. So he was actually preaching sitting
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: down and not walking at all. But he died. He
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: he prayed over his sicknesses, his pneumonia, his gang green,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and his leg. And he had something called faith assembly
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: I believe in Indiana, and he was preaching that medical
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: not just you know, come and get your your your
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: faith healing. But medical interventions are not. It's not it's
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: a sign of that's that's evil. That's basically a sign
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: of a lack of faith in God. Yeah. I mean
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: he was to the point where he was like, don't
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: even clean my wound, like that's medical treatment, and I
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: refuse that, yea, And so he died. I'm not quite
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: sure how old he was the problem is this is
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: like he's an adult, he can make his own decisions,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: especially in the United States, where religious freedom is vehemently protected.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It yea. The problem with him and his Faith Assembly
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: was that he took like ninety people with him while
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: he was doing this, including babies who were neglected um
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: any kind of medical care, children who were um who
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: died of easily treatable diseases, women who died in childbirth. UM.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Ninety people they decided died and I think between five
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and ten years at Faith Assembly who probably otherwise would
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: have lived had they sought medical treatment as well as
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: as faith healing. Yeah. And this this is where it
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: can overlap with Christian science. Um, they don't believe that
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: medical science is uh. They issue medical science and medical
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: um assistance right. UM. I guess depending on there may
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: be a range. I don't know if I'm not. I
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: don't know any Christian scientists, so I don't know if
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: some of them are if they're a hardline there's and
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: other people that are like, no, well we will take
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: a little medicine for this and that. But ostensibly Christian
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: scientists don't believe in medical intervention. UH. So there is
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: some overlap there, but it's uh what they will say
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: if someone dies, even a child. Is it's either God's
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: will or in the case of faith healing, if it
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't work, they will say that they didn't truly believe
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: they would have truly They put the vain the blame
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: back on the sick person and say, if you didn't, uh,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: if you didn't get healed by my hand, then that
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: means you didn't truly believe in that you aren't devout,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: which is it's that's one thing if like you're a
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: true believer faith healer, but if you're a con man,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: and that's how you're getting out of it is saying
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: you don't have enough faith. What a crippling thing to
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: do to some a person of faith. You know how
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: despicable is that? Well? I think it was, um Benny
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: hens Uh was it Benny Hinder pop Off, one of
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: them's nephew. I read an article by him, and he's
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: still very much a devout Christian, but he saw the light.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: He was a catcher for a while and to catch
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: the people on stage and he was like, it wasn't
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: until I met my wife, uh, and she couldn't speak
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: in tongues and everyone was like, you gotta you can't
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: marry her. She started opening his eyes too. I guess
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: the um the other competing Christianity, which says, you don't
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: speak in tongues, you don't um faith heal and he
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: has put all that behind him and said that, I
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: mean he feels guilt now for this lavish lifestyle. I mean,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: that's the other part of this prosperity thing is they
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: believe that God has is blessing them with all these
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: riches and these Italian villas and the fleet of Mercedes
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: in the driveway and the helicopter, and that it's all
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: God's will. But he had a big, big problem with
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: the fact that they would then in turn blame the
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: people who didn't get healed because they weren't devout. It's
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: really sad. Yeah, it is sad. So there's a few
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: there's a few really bad nag get of outcomes from this.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: One is you might die because you aren't going to
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: seek medical treatment. And even if you're going to a
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: faith healer and you're not say like a Christian science adherent,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: but you you are a true believer in faith healing.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: If you go to a faith healer and they're like,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: we I just cured your cancer, you might be like, well,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go spend any more money on co
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: pays for any follow up stuff. I'll just go home.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I don't like going to the hospital. I hate chemotherapy.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: And then if that treatment was keeping you alive or
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: prolonging your life, um, you might die from because you
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: believe that the faith healer has healed you. Another one
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: is that like you're you're losing money. If this stuff
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: really actually doesn't work, then you're just throwing your money away,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: or put a different way, it's being conned out of you.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: That's another negative outcome of it. Um. And then yes,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the injuries like Catherine Coleman and the woman with the
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: spinal cancer whose spine color lapsed. Should we take a break?
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I think so? Man, all right, we're gonna take a
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: break and come back and talk a little bit about
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: psychic surgery and a bit more on Christian science right
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: after this. Alright, So psychic surgery is something that we
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: have not mentioned yet. Uh. This is uh. I guess
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: it's a kind of faith healing. But um, if you
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: ever saw or if you know anything about Andy Kaufman,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: or saw the movie Man on the Moon with Jim
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Carey as Andy Kaufman. You remember the scene where or
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: if you grew up in the seven and eighties, you
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: remember seeing this stuff on like sixty Minutes or PBS.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It seems like it was a big thing. Then. Uh,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: these psychic surgeons will um use their hands. Um. Most
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: of the time it's on your like your your belly,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and you'll lay you down with your shirt off, and
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: it looks like they are reaching into your body with
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: their hands and pulling out organs or tumors or something, right,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: pulling out some sort of fleshy, meaty product. Right. So
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: what's really going on with psychic surgeons is it is
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: a complete fraud. They are masters of slight of hand
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and they are covering up um. If you've seen the video,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: they're always covering up what they're doing with the other hand.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: And they have blood packets in their hand, and they
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: have like chicken gizzards or something tucked away that you
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: don't see. And it's just a big slight of hand
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: magic show. And in the Man in the Moon movie,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: it was very sad because Andy Kaufman was kind of
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: at his wits end. I was trying to heal him,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you know, get healed of cancer medically, and he took
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: a chance traveled to where Philippines was at the Philippines,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: and Um, I saw the guy palming the chicken gizzards
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: knew it was a fake. This is a very sad
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: moment in his life and in that movie. So I wondered.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I remembered that being the case in that movie too.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: But I had read like an account of his experience there,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: and from what I could gather, he he left for
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the Philippines feeling like the psychic surgery had worked. That
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: the movie contrived or inserted that part. Yeah, because he
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: spent I think six weeks over there getting almost daily
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: psychic surgery, and he apparently improved. He started to gain
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: some weight as spirits improved, so much so that he
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: left the Philippines expecting to heal. But when he went
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: back to the United States, he died pretty quickly after that.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: It was pretty sad in the movie at least. Yeah,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: it really was, because he starts laughing at like the
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: whole cosmic joke of the whole thing. Yeah, so, I mean,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: what can happen if some of these people maybe he
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: did feel better. Uh, sometimes people do kick cancer. Um,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: and they will say it's because of the either intercessory prayer,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: the faith healing or both. Um. What skeptics will say
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: is no, sometimes people heal from cancer. You know I do.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing that chuck. This is where science has
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: kind of fallen down and allowed faith heeling to continue
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: on basically unabated. They they don't have in science doesn't
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: understand why some cancer spontaneously remits. They just don't. They
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: They know that some types of cancer are more likely
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to undergo spontaneous remission. They also suspect that people may
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: actually developed cancer and their body might overcome it and
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: they will go their whole lives without realizing that they
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: ever had cancer at some point, but they don't understand
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: the mechanisms behind it. Where I feel like science has
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: fallen down is this misunderstood. Frankly, faith based explanation has
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: been has been used to replace another faith based explanation,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: which is that the Holy Spirit healed these people. They're saying, no,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: it's spontaneous remission. Well what is that? Well, we don't
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: really know, but it's not the Holy Spirit. And I
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: feel like that's that's just that that doesn't fly at all.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: And for people who believe in in faith healing when
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: they hear spontaneous remission and they ask, well, you know,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: how does that work? And science as we don't know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: but just trust us. That's what it is. That's not
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: going to change anybody's view if you're a true believer
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: in this kind of thing. Yeah. And it also points
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: out that some of this could be due to the
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: placebo effect, which can remember which show, but we've talked
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: about that before. For sure, we did a placebo effect show.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: It was probably that one. Uh. And that's of course
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: when fake treatments, uh, it seem like they have actual
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: positive effects for the patient. Um. So some of that
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: could be this. Some of it could be they have
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: comfort therefore reduced anxiety, and it has been shown when
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: you have reduced anxiety and stress, then that can um,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: that can help your your case medically. Um. Which is
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: also actually I think why that first study you talked about,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: UM with the bad outcome didn't wasn't one of the
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: explanations possibly that people it increased their anxiety. Yeah, like
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: they gave them performance anxiety, Like they didn't want to
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: let the people who were praying for them down right,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: or let God down. So they actually became anxious, which
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: in turn created negative outcomes or complications from the surgery,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Which is just someone surmising what that could mean, that
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: outcome could mean. Right again again. So like if if,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: if science is taking it upon itself to two challenge
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: faith healing, I don't think it's doing a very good
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: job right now because the polace Evo effect that's not
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: explained very well either. Um, the idea that anxiety can
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: can lead to negative outcomes. These are things that it's like, yes, science,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: you're on the right track. Keep going. Don't just stop there.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: I hope not. I don't think so. But you do
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: get the impression that if you ask a scientist about
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: faith healing, they just throw out, well that that holy
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: spirit thing, that's just mass illusion. There's spontaneous remission of cancer,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: so just leave it at that and you get a
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: little pat on the head. I just don't think that works.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: So who knows, Maybe twenty years down the road, when
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: we understand spontaneous remission, we can say no, you were
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: not healed. This is what your body did. I think
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: in that case, then the people say, well, yeah, God
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: made my body do that through the faith healer. I
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: don't think it's ever going to end well. Yeah, and
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: there's also the ace that um, the Peter pop Offs
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: of the world selling are sorry, not selling taking donations
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: for Holy spring water. Um. At one point I think
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: he was a an actual company. And then of course
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: the government starts poking around the books and fraud claims,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: and then he re registers as a as a religious
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: group and their religious protections in this country and exemptions
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: from the i r S such that they can get
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: away with some of the stuff. They don't have to
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: show their books. It's tricky. Speaking of laws as well
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: to um the the there are laws on the books
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: that protect religious groups and I think like nine states
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: from criminal negligent manslaughter, homicide charges for withholding um, withholding
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: medical care from children. Yeah. It's weirdly. Just came up
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: today actually in real time as we record today in
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: the news. Did you see that in Idaho? I didn't.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: The article is called an Idaho and Idaho medical care
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: exemptions for faith healing come under fire. Uh. And this
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: was breaking news like three hours ago. Uh. There's a
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: cemetery in Boise called Peaceful Valley Cemetery, six hundred grave
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: sites and nearly a third of them are children. And
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: while it's impossible to tell how many UM died because
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: of UM negligent parents, uh, they think that a great
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: many of them did. They've tried together corner reports, autopsy reports,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: UM advocates have tried to do this, uh, but basically, UH,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: they estimate that a hundred and eighty three Idaho children
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: have died since the nineteen seventies because of parents withholding
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: medical treatment. And I think they lead the nation in UM, yes,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: as more children die of faith based medical neglect in
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Idaho than any other state. And so they had a
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: rally I think today where they had UM hundred and
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: eighty three child's eyes caskets delivered I think to the
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: capital steps and Boise, and they're calling on reform and saying,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: you know, you can't do this anymore. Like I know
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that parents like these children's can't advocate children's. These children
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: can't advocate for themselves, so it's up to the parents
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: to make sure that they get medical treatment if they
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: need it. And and again though these parents will literally
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: watch their kid die and say it was God's will right,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: And I mean like this, this country was founded on
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: religious liberty, so there's just such a sticky situation where
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: it's like, like, we have the technology to save your
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: child and you're not letting us do it. And in Idaho,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: like you said, is the state that leads that. Other
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: states don't have anything like that any and haven't for
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: a long time. Some have loopholes that allow that, but
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: say like, if if this happens to multiple children of yours,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: like your you've let more than one kid die as
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: God's will, We're gonna actually come after you. And then
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: other states, I think, like Florida and I can't remember
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: the other state basically say yes, we're you're you're we're
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: not going to criminally charge parents who withhold medical care,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: but the court can still come in and be like, uh, sorry,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: t Ys, your kid is getting this life saving medical
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: care whether you like it or not. Well, apparently everything
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: changed in nineteen seventy four. That was um the Federal
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act, and at the time,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: the Department of HHS interpreted that to say that states
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: must implement faith healing exclusions, and so in order to
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: get uh federal funding, a lot of the states passed
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: these faith healing exemptions so they could get funding, and
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: later on the Department said, you know what we were
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: send that interpretation. That's not what we meant. But it
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: was too late at that point. Yeah, And and I
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: think it was two thousand three was when they finally
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: rescinded it. But and so all of these these exemptions
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: are relics from two thousand three at the latest, I
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: think of the nineties, a lot of them were removed
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: to So I have a feeling that's not gonna be
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: around for much longer. They'll probably be like one state
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: that's like the holdout state, and I'll be surprised if
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: it's not Idaho. But I don't think there's gonna be
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: too many states with it around ten years from now
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: or five years from now. I watched a lot of
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: YouTube today, by the way, Yeah, yeah, I used to
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: We used to watch. We used to watch in college.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: We would go to my friend Clay's house and he
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: had VHS tapes of faith Healers and uh Peter pop
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Off for sure. And then although he wouldn't have Faith Healer,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: did you ever watch uh Robert Tilton? No, the name
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: sounds familiar. You've probably seen the fart compilation. He was
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: a televangelist in the eighties. He's still around, I think,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: but I think he might have been one of us
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: went broken then cut rich again. But he was a
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: televangelis in the eighties that had this great, great show,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: um something power. I can't remember what it was called.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: But no, we're talking about I know exactly what you mean.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: You'd probably recognize this guy. But Clay had a bunch
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: of these dubbed and we would we would sit around
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: late at night and watch Bob Tilton speaking tongues and
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: stuff on his show. And he was I watched his
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: bunch today. It took a stroll dumb memory lane. Yeah,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: it's really funny to watch Bob Tilton, I will say, so,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: what do you mean the fart accomplishing as he fared
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: a lot as well. No, years later someone did a
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: He would make all these funny faces and herkey dierky movements,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: and of course someone later on dubbed in farts every
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: time he closed his eyes real tight or made a
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: funny move, And it's that's funny to watch. But it's
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: also funny just to watch Bob Tilton because he is
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: like it's entertainment. It was hysterical but you know, people
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: would write him big X and go broke and not
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: be able to pay their mortgages because they're sending him
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: money because they His whole deal was the prosperity thing,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: like you you will get rich if you if you
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: send your money, it will come back tenfold. That kind
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: of deal. Yeah, we definitely have to do an episode
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: just on that. Back in the day, real quick, did
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: you um, did you ever watch Cartoon Network when Adult
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Swim was just like an hour long block at night? Yeah? Sometimes,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: so there was like Space Ghost Coast to Coast was
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: like I think their first show. Yeah, our friend Dave
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Wallis was one of the creators right before Space Goest
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Coast to Coast. They kind of dipped their toe in
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: it where they would run old Space Ghost um cartoons
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: just normal, but they would dub in like inappropriate laugh tracks,
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: and it made it like one of the most bizarrely
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: funny things you've ever seen. Like somebody would just deliver
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: a line that was maybe mildly like like n S
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Space Ghost costoon fun, but then like the crowd in
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: this the studio audience would just start laughing. It was.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: It was great stuff. Well, I just love that I'm
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: like almost forty seven years old, and I have put
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: myself out there in public as a learned, researched man,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: and there's nothing funnier to me than uh, Bob Tilton
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: part compilation. Nice. Hey, what's funny? It is funny? That's right. Well,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: if you want to know more about faith heeling, Um,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like, go on to YouTube, maybe goes
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: check one out yourself. Who knows? Who knows what will happen? Uh?
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: And since I said who knows what will happen, it's
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: time for listener, ma'am. I'm gonna call this using us
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: in the classroom. We've got a few of these lately,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: which always makes us happy. Hey, guys, big fan recently
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: saw you in San Francisco. It's sketch Fest and it
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: was even better than what I've been hoping for. Uh.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: And by the way, I want to point out to people,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: when you come see us live, it is better than this. Yeah,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: you get a free dumb dumb sucker just for coming. Well,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: they're funnier, they're more fun, they're funnier shows. Uh. You
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: get to hear say dirty words here and there. Um,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: we drink a hundred percent more than we do in
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: the studio. That's true. Anyway, he went to to San Francisco.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Reason I'm writing is that I'm an eighth grade English teacher.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: My class has been reading about Harriet Tubman for the
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: past few weeks. This morning, I woke up and saw
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: that you release an episode about her. I knew what
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: it was meant to be. It's part of my lesson plan.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: It was a bit nervous with my morning class because
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I hadn't listened to the episode yet, wondering if you
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: might go off on some weird tangent that my students
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: would be confused by. But you did an incredible job.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like that one was pretty tangent free. It
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: really was we we Yeah, we stuck to the story.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: We were both a little awe struck. That's right. Despite
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: all the distractions inherent and being a teenager, my students
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: were absorbed and entertained by your explanation of this amazing
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: person's life and our contributions to America. Today was many
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: of my students first time listening to a podcast, and
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: I'm so happy I was able to introduce them to
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Josh and Chuckla And that is President Rob Carter so,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Mr Rob Carter's Class, I hope you enjoyed yourselves. I
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: hope you started listening to our show regularly. You guys
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: and gals are the best. Yeah, thanks a lot, Mr
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Carter and Mr Carter's Class. Did you call him President
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Rob Carter? No, I'm almost positive you said that was
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: President Rob Carter. Really. Yeah, you just elected that gout
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: of high office, so that would be a weird thing
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: to say. You're welcome, President Carter. I just got a
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: a gift of an edible arrangement from Hugh Jackman. Yeah,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: so maybe he'll get this guy like your president. He
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: can't wait for that. Amy simple McPherson role. I looked
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: at her picture. I know you saw me over here.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: She I would go with Amy Adams. She do good. Sure.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I think just about any actress working today, any of
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the big names, would do a pretty good job with it.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: There's some some pretty good actresses working today. Well, you
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: know what, your your future is not in casting. You
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: don't think so who shouldn't be, Josh, You do not
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: think any of the anyone it should be pretty good, right,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: just you know, throw a dart. They're all talented. They
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: are all talented. Who was the one in um La
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: La Land. Oh wow, I want to say Emma Blunt,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: but that's not Emma Blunt. Emma Stone, Emma Stone. Emily
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Blunt was in Cicaro, right, Yes, and then Amy Adams
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: was in a Arrival. Yes, Yes, she'd probably be pretty
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: good at it too, But I still go with Jennifer Lawrence.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: Sounds like my dad. I feel like your dad right now? Hey, Well,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: at any rate, listen this episode? Shall we Yes? If
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, you can
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: tweet to us at s Y s K podcast or
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Josh onm Clark. You can hang out with us on
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant, or slash
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: stuff you Should Know. You can send us an email
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: to Stuff Podcast at how stuff Works dot com and
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: has always joined us at our home on the web,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know dot com. For more on this
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: M hmmm