Latest / Pioneer Mind Podcast / Author Dan Cherry - Montana History, "Bighorn to the Big Hole
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to the Mark Workman Show. I just we just always love doing these episodes. It's just it's a great time for me to you know, just keep doing what I'm doing here. I'm learning so much doing these podcasts and and I'm hoping to keep improving them. And you know, again, I've not hidden the fact that the subject matter for me a lot of times is my oil field or AI, technology, crypto kind of focuses for me in terms of industries that I like to do and like to promote my own customers in terms of the oil field and what we do there and how I I feel like our energy development and is is really saving America in in my opinion. It's it's really a mission, it's not just a business. So you know, I'd like to promote those type people. But you I've not s I did an episode a few weeks ago about reading. It was an hour-long episode of just about reading books and the importance of reading and personal development. And all of you know that I end every show with learn an instrument, learn a language, read a book. You know, I'm always trying to encourage people to Grow and mature and and keep learning Because I really believe we should be lifelong learners the rest of our lives learning something. So I really want to promote that. So one of my other interests is books, obviously. And today we have a guest with us. I'm excited about this. I met this man, he has been trying to row to Texas or Mexico or something for the last couple years. I don't know if he's made it quite to Mexico yet, but he's he's gotten pretty far. but I met him at the club and he's on the rowing machine, and I struck up A conversation with him, He's a native Montanan. We've gotten to know each other, and we kind of hit it off on the idea of writing books. I do a lot of writing, but I'll never publish. I'm just a wimp. this guy's got courage, and he's written an historical fiction that is related to our area from Fort. Shaw, Big Hole, the Custer Battlefield, you know, all the all the different regional things going on here. And so he's written in historical fiction. And I'm just glad he's here today. And I hope to do more of these kind of things with authors. I I I'm kind of excited by the fact that I can do this. And and so I just want to just thank Dan for coming today and welcome to the show. Thanks, Dan. And so tell us a little bit about yourself. speaker-1: Well, thank you. Yeah, like you said, I'm a native Montanan, born in Shoteau, but my family moved to Fort Benton. I mainly grew up in Fort Benton. but the point of all that is that I grew up in the midst of really rich history, everything from the fur trade and Lewis and Clark, early explorers coming up to the Missouri, to well Charlie Russell, you know, really integral to central Montana history and history of Montana as a state. and so much others, you know, the the mining, the vigilantes, the gold g gold history, Helena, Virginia City, Aldergulch, Shabannock, etcetera. so we've got so much history that I just I guess I was born in the right place, you might say. Yeah. I've also enjoyed a number of other pursuits. back my book gives us short bio, you know, before I got a real job I worked as a mule packer and backcountry guide. I just you know, I I love to hunt, but I think the real drive behind the hunt is not just the love for the wildlife, but the but the habitat. Montana has such a variety of habitat and country from the eastern plains to the highest peaks. you know, and hunting gives you motivation to get out and enjoy that. but it gives you an appreciation for the history of how all that country has been explored, settled, utilized, you know, by the nomadic tribes. And so with that love of history, I've also always had a bit of a creative bent. So among other things I've been driven to put some of those ideas into writing. speaker-0: Yeah, cool. Well, you know, when you think about the word history in Montana, my wife and I will comment all the time and it just happened. We're not that old. You know, think about the Persians or China or whatever, you know what I mean? We're talking stuff that's 1907 or this is 1877. You know, it's really not that long ago, right? you know, it the history we call Montana history history, use that word, but 'cause it is in the back, it's backwards behind us, right? Sure. But at the same time, it it's just not that old. It's still pretty relevant. Don't you think so? speaker-1: I it is. And i you know, I've been back east a little bit. some of my training as a firefighter allowed me to go to a national fire academy at the FEMA and US Fire Administration headquarters in Maryland. And there of course you're surrounded by history of not only American Civil War but the American Revolution. I and even back there they would talk about some of their buildings being two hundred, two hundred and fifty years old and Europeans think that's young. Yeah. You know. speaker-0: They actually mock us, you know. they they we're renting this apartment today. It's on sale, you know, it's it's r you can easily get it. When was it built? In year eight. You know, they speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: kinda mock us because we're so young, you know. You know, and we're having speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: our two fifty two hundred and fifty anniversary and it's just amazing where this nation is gone. in that period of time, you know, but it it's so important to look at history. So when when you're looking at historical fiction, you decided to write an historical fiction novel, and you love for history, why historical fiction? speaker-1: a number of reasons. One is I just I I loved I've loved history all my life and I've always enjoyed historical fiction. I you know, I've enjoyed nonfiction, historical nonfiction tremendously. And as they say, sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction or at times maybe as entertaining if not more so. But the beauty of fiction is you can It's kind of like a blank canvas. You can take the reality, maybe not a blank canvas, because the settings are already there, the events, the places, the people involved. But you can make your own character and set that character down in the middle of it or bring that character into it and create events that in in my case explain, you know, kind of an artist's conception of how certain things might have happened. in the case of my current book, Bighorn to the Big Hole, it uses an historical a fictional character to tie those two events together in Montana history. They were only a year apart. and it actually I you know, I didn't start this series as a series, you know, I I just it actually begins with a book set during the time of the American Civil War. I put it out to coincide with the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of some Civil War events and explain speaker-0: Is that historical fiction as well? It is. Okay, okay. So that is the genre you like. speaker-1: It is. I find it pretty challenging to write fiction and to write novels. I'd I'd probably rather write nonfiction and you know, it's easier for me to just gather information and organize it than to write imaginary, you know, depictions. speaker-0: Is that because you're putting a story to it that has kind of meat and bones that could could be real but isn't? But it really it really could have happened just the way you wrote it with Jed. You know what I mean? Or one one of your characters. I don't want to give away the book, but you know what I mean? It really could happen this way. It brings a reality to it that isn't necessarily real, but it is. speaker-1: Y yes, absolutely. You know, that's the way I I enjoy it is you know, rather than a random story set in a random place, it you know, I I like reality. I like the reality of history. Mm-hmm. we don't always like all aspects of that. You know, there's negatives there that we don't wanna have to acknowledge, but we mu have to acknowledge. but the you know, like the lead character in these books, Basically, I was able to use him as a fictional character to explain real events and how they might have actually occurred. speaker-0: Yeah, can you can you describe the moment when you come up with this book, Bighorn Bighorn to the Big Hole? And the tagline is Fights That Forged a Scout. Okay, so that's the ta that's a pretty important tagline for your book, in my opinion. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Having read it, so it it it is about this scout that has an interesting arc, I I guess is the best is that a good word to use? speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: It's an interesting arc from where he started during Civil War and he gets to Montana and he He's doing all these we would call them adventures because we see it as adventurists and really they're just getting their butt kicked, right? You know, well it's pretty speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: tough. you know, so what what was the moment? I guess when when did you know you were gonna write this about the big hole, about the bighorn and this and this scout? When when how did that come out? What was the genesis of that? speaker-1: probably have to back up and give a little background. Again, the first book was and and the titles follow a certain pattern, but the first book is Shenandoah to Sharpsburg. Okay. Yeah, with a subtitle, The Cigars That Freed the Slaves. I and I don't want to give away too much 'cause it's it is out on it's been out on Kindle for what, thirteen, fourteen years now. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: but I'm doing some updates to it. I actually had a different last name for the main characters and That'll be updated to match the because the same characters show up in the Bighorn to Big Hole book. But speaker-0: So the genesis of this is it you you your previous books led to this writing. Katcha. speaker-1: Yes. yeah. The character main character and his brother were already there in that first book. I didn't write it with a second book in mind. Or if I did it has the it's o you know, it's more it'll be book three in the series. I gotcha. But I just I wanted to I had these ideas rattling around in my mind and I wanted to get out there. You know, it was kind of a vague you know, undefined bucket list type of thing and then we reached the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the Civil War and it went started and it occurred to me if I'm gonna do this I better do it now. So I I kinda had a deadline, and I put the book together. But then I couldn't tell you what year. I was camping near the big hole. battlefield with one of my daughters. She was very passionate about photography and wanted to get some photos down there. And so probably anywhere from twenty fifteen to twenty eighteen. I don't recall when it was, but we'd made a trip down there. And somehow it it just I got to thinking about that battle and and I had read, well, journals like a a lot of my current book is based on journal entries from James H. Bradley. He was a lieutenant, who was at one point was stationed at Fort Benton after it became a military post and then he was moved to Fort Shaw. And he was in charge of the scouts for General or Colonel Gibbon by after the Civil War he was down to the rank of Colonel. He took troops both to the bighorn little excuse me, the Little Bighorn and then a year later to the Big Hole battle. so I had a lot of that information rattled around in my head and it just somewhere in that journey it occurred to me to put a book together that ties the two together because they were only you know, totally separate conflicts, but a year apart in the history of Montana. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: And then time frame wise, you know, taking this lead character from a fourteen year old boy in the during the American Civil War, or in eighteen sixty-two, it really fit for him as an adult to be recruited by Custer, who in eighteen seventy six was back again in the area of Washington DC and Virginia. got into some political hot water and had to testify back there before Congress. But it just i it just all fell together to form the beginnings of a a book that brings Jed Morgan, the lead character, and his brother out and puts him down in the middle of these Montana conflicts. speaker-0: So what what is you know, I I I you can tell by the you can tell by the name of a scout what they do, but can you describe the life of a scout, what their orders will be? If they're scouting, they are actually out in front, most likely, right? Yes. deciding Do are they deciding the direction is best? they're looking for dangers, they're doing all those things I'm assuming. So what how do you best describe a scout? What was Jed's main job as a scout? and was he good at it? speaker-1: yeah, in my book he he was good at it. He just kinda had a natural affinity for you know, for the skills that that would make a scout good, good observation, good ability to handle himself in a conflict, whether it's one on one physical conflict or the bigger scale of things. you know, and anyone interested in this history would would really Well, I I've read a number of journals from people, you know, some that were with Custer's battalion and General Terry's coming from Fort Abraham Lincoln and the Dakotas, or James Bradley. there's another one, believe the cavalryman's name was Zimmer or Zimmerman. several journals are out there that talk about the lives that that they lived. But if you read the March of the Montana column, it's a published version of Lieutenant Bradley's journal. He was in charge of the scouts for Colonel Gibbon, in both both conflicts, the Little Bighorn and the Big Hole Battle. And yeah, he was out and as an advance guard. one thing you'll find, particularly in relation to the Little Bighorn, is that US military relied heavily on Indians. And that that leads to a whole realm of different conflicts amongst the Indian tribes themselves, you know, that was going on long before the white men ever showed up. and the book poses the question, you know, why why did Crow Indians act as scouts against the Sioux or the Ericaras, you know, or from over in the Dakotas? you know, there's long standing enmity between the tribes and conflict and actually the Sioux had taken land from other tribes. you know, of course, they were even raiding on to a reservation that was occupied by the Crows following the Fort Laramie treaties of eighteen fifty one and eighteen sixty eight. so the Crows were happy for any opportunity to operate against their traditional enemies. speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's that's history that is not discussed enough. What you just kinda alluded to, we won't spend much time on it. But the you use the word enmity, that's a very kind word, actually, if you read any of that history about how the tr the different tribes treated each other and the way they approached each other for resources and land and you know, whatever they were going for to keep their own you know, livelihood in place, right? You know, survival was the key word there. And and and we all know that when you get to survival mode, anything goes, right? You know. And so you know, again, we we we don't understand that pre-history a little bit before we got here and we're doing Manifest Destiny and we're crawling all over the West and they're not liking that either, right? Correct. So but the the pre of that is it was is vi the the conflicts between the tribes was real and ongoing. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: You know, and and we get stepped into the fight, basically, in some ways, because of history and we came on the scene and it was already going on long before we got here. speaker-1: Yes, it was. speaker-0: You know, it's pretty interesting. So the a scout would be out forward, Jed's out forward, he's out working would he typically be alone or does he go with a group? You know what I mean? 'Cause I'm wondering if they're sneaky. Are they out there like spies or is that the wrong way to see it? Or are they you know what I mean? Or are they out there with a group have a little bit of a guard with them? speaker-1: They would and again there's you know, there were the White Scouts and the Indian Scouts. the White Scouts would typically be with a small group, never a large detachment. course they you know, it'd be hard to stay out of sight, you know, the dust clouds and any number of other factors, you know, would make a a large detachment of scouts easy to detect. But speaker-0: So their goal was to be undetected. speaker-1: Yes, oftentimes yes, 'cause they wanted to big tac common tactic was to take these tribes by surprise for various reasons. You know, these nomadic tribes could scatter quickly. Yeah. Oftentimes they'd be okay with b abandoning their entire village. okay. Just for the sake of safety. Gotcha. Yeah, and it would be like catching an amoeba or a you know, you know, small grant bands would disperse. And that's part of what led Custer to press the attack at the Little Bighorn. There was a distinct fear that this large gathering of various Sioux bands, Lakota bands, and some Cheyenne's, including n trib well, members that had left reservations to to band up with him. probably the largest known gathering of Plains Indian tribes, at least in the northern plains. And there was a fear that they would disperse before before the US could force basically attack and try to force onto reservations. Right. so this fictional character Jed Morgan, he would have had to pick up quickly on the s scouting skills. But typically the yeah, there would be a contingent of of white white scouts, infantry members or or cavalry members, and then they would they they contracted a bunch of co Crow Scouts to help them and the crows would disperse in all directions and do even more covert scouting, you might say. the and then they would report back. throughout the day or at the end of a day to to Lieutenant Bradley who was in charge of the the whole scouting detail. speaker-0: So it's it's an important it it's maybe one of the most important things to gather information so you know how to make a decision. Is what they were doing. speaker-1: Yes, absolutely. And that's kinda hard probably for a lot of us to relate to nowadays 'cause we're so inundated with information and communication back. speaker-0: Well, you know, we have the this phone is the Library of Alexandria, essentially. speaker-1: sure. speaker-0: You know, my wife and I do it all the time. How much does a rhino weigh? You know, how much is a rhino weigh? I mean, I'm just saying we can know anything so instantly. And we just took for granted how difficult it was to probably gather the right information and make a decision. So scouts were hugely important. And then and and then he gets hooked up with is it Colonel Gibbons? Colonel Gibbons he was go ahead, I'm sorry. speaker-1: What just for background, Gibbon like so many of the military members post Civil War had gone down in rank. A lot of them had attained a higher rank, including Custer. He was referred to as General Custer, but he was a lieutenant colonel in the post Civil War cavalry. Gibbon had been a at least a brigadier general, if not high. speaker-0: Yeah. I'm gonna put a picture up of him and this is it's not it's the kind of the best one I could find, but he he seems really young. speaker-1: That's yes, that's probably a picture from looking at the uniform. I'm I'm guessing that was from his career during the American Civil War. speaker-0: Okay, so that's probably ten years earlier. speaker-1: Probably. Gotcha. Yeah, if you saw a photo from the time of say well, there's a fairly common well known photo of Gibbons sitting with Chief Joseph. Okay. speaker-0: I had that one. speaker-1: Yeah, and he he looks older and of course that's Somewhat after eighteen seventy-seven. But anyway, yeah, it was Colonel Gibbon at the time of the little bighorn and the big hole. speaker-0: conflict. So Jed gets tick called up by him. And speaker-1: yeah. speaker-0: they connected somehow, right? speaker-1: Yes. And that part of that's just imaginary on my part. in the previous book that these characters come from, Jed's older brother Thomas was a cavalryman in the Confederate army, the Ar Army of Northern Virginia. He rode with Jeb Stewart, who was very much a real mm member as well, you know, and of course Jed Morgan ends up in Stonewall Jackson's brigade in the Army of Virginia. But, you know, in that book he has a real distaste for the slavery that his f family practices. his father, of course, hadn't served in the Mexican War fighting for America, but now he's a major fighting for the Confederacy. And Anyway, Thomas being smaller in stature, he fit you know, he fit the parameters. There were limits on how big a cavalryman could be. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: And it's still pretty well known that the horses got pretty depleted during the campaigns that led to the Little Bighorn. Jed being bigger and stronger, he probably wouldn't have qualified for cavalry, but when he and his brother are recruited as scouts by a custer, they come to Fort Abraham Lincoln, which sits on the Missouri River. so it was just kind of a matter of it it just fell into place that he would come upriver by steamboat to Fort Benton, end up at Fort Shaw, and serve with Colonel Gibbon in the post Civil War conflicts. speaker-0: Yeah, so he Gibb he was unknown to Gibbon then. Yeah, in your mind in the book. Yeah. He's so he's unknown. He gets out there as as a scout. And then you have Thomas, is again not telling the story hardly at all, really, is i ends up with Custer and you know, and let's put Custer up there too, but you know, he he has quite a history and a background. I I ask the question all the time. There seems so much emphasis on Custer at times because it's a massacre, right? And it didn't last very long. It was very quick. They were totally they and his scouts didn't do a very good job, in my opinion. Well, am I wrong about that? Because they if he he used Indian scouts, was he duped or was he or what because it just they were just the they were coming across the river and they were doing things to Custer had no idea what he got into in many ways. Right? am I wrong? In many speaker-1: Many ways, yes, but I think to understand, well Custer started out with a Ricker of Scouts, but along the Yellowstone River, Gibbons column met up with the column of General i and to even go back further, I should give give background. In early eighteen seventy six the general overseeing this portion of the country militarily, came up with a plan where he would send three columns. One was known as the Wyoming Column under General George Crook. And just a little bit of background, you know, on June 17th, eight days before the Little Bighorn battle, he was met by the same Indians that Custer fought eight days later. And he was largely fought to a stalemate. he did a from a military standpoint he did a much better job of staying out of the fray and actually commanding his troops and so the the two forces largely fought to a draw, but then Crook decided he was outnumbered, so he took his column back down to well, what's called known as Goose Creek, near Sh what's now Sheridan, Wyoming. just speaker-0: Mm-hmm, gotcha. speaker-1: off the Tongue River and and they were waiting for reinforcement. speaker-0: Don't those distances seem so far? You know what I mean? When you think about engagements and fights and the the logistics it takes to move an army, we talked about that before the show started a little bit. Just think about the distances you're talking about. Fort Shaw to you know, out out to Bighorn to I mean, it's just amazing the distances and how they did that. They must have been absolutely brutally tough people. my gosh. speaker-1: Yeah, I believe so, 'cause yeah, the other two columns, the Dakota Column coming from Fort Abraham Lincoln and Dakota territory, and then the Montana Column under Colonel Gibbon was coming from Fort Shaw. I and I it would not have been r realistic even to a general behind a desk back then f to think that they all three could reach the same point at the same time and surround a a village you know, a gathering of Indians or of what they called hostels. in their minds. But i and I'll get back to that, but that was just background. But but yes, they for them to travel under the conditions, you know, if you read James Bradley's journal, they left Fort Shaw on March seventeenth in a blizzard. You know, and and prospite was a thing with some of They probably speaker-0: It mentions that in the book an many times actually. The frostbite was a big deal. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, frostbite was. Snowblindness was another thing. And various y you know, you'll find that in accounts of various Indians. You know, it snow in fact I I heard one I believe it pertained to the little bighorn, written by a part Sioux historian, but he referred to the month of March. Our month of March. It's what they called the moon of snow blindness. speaker-0: Interesting. speaker-1: so probably a lot of snow but a lot of bright, balmy days. And So y that was just one of the things they dealt with. but they had to camp in that stuff, oftentimes with probably two wool blankets, you know. We have our Kelti or it or whatever your name brand sleeping bag is, you know, down Dayton, you know, all these fancy materials. all the gear that we have for hunting and camping. Y you know, they had canvas tents. Probably just a you know, what they call the shelter half. like a eight by eight sheet of canvas and you put two of together and form a tent. Yeah. Or make a lean to for yourself, one or the other. speaker-0: Well, the I always think of dances with wolves when that one guy's on the wagon and with the the actor, whoever played the army man. Why don't they write? You know what I mean? I just look speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: back on this stuff sometimes because I do read and I and I I'm fascinated by how they made it. They were just so incredibly tough and were would show up in somewhere else hundreds of miles away, like they just were able to do it. You know, they're just tough. speaker-1: Yes, yeah, reading like a lot of these real world scouts, Fred Gerard, Mitch I'll call him Mitch Bouyer, probably pronounced Bouillet. His father was French or French Creed maybe. fact they would, you know, in the April, May, they'd jump in, swim across the Yellowstone River to either do some scouting duties or carry a message across to forces on the other side. and there's a lot of interesting details pertaining to that, but we probably don't have time to sidetrack onto it. speaker-0: But No, i i i again we can do another episode. It's pretty simple. And I mean it part of it is there's so much here sometimes that you know you can't history is is so rich and deep and we're you know I I always feel like you know, I always try to encourage people to read and and I don't think we read enough because we're dependent on the the new digital phone to answer our simple little question, but it doesn't give context, right? And and you're not in your in in in your historical fiction account I I actually think the characters you add put meat and bones on the history. I think it makes it real and makes can almost put yourself there. I even I had a question for you earlier today. I said, Do you kind of think see see yourself in this story? Like do you do not necessarily wish you were there because it would be so tough, but there's something about that. You as a Montana, a native one, packing, guiding, you know the mountains, you know how this works. works here in Montana as a native, do you ever place yourself there in your mind like, I think I'd kinda like that. or not. speaker-1: think so if nothing else to you know, for me to write something fictional or even an account where I of an historical account where I wasn't there, I I almost have to try to not literally envision myself there but but almost try to picture myself as part of it. speaker-0: Yeah, you you you can see the cactus. You can see, we don't have any firewood, so and you gotta go out there on the deserty plains some pl and the out there w what are the you know, what are they burning? They stay warm at night, you know. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You know, and the challenges, you know, so you have to kind of walk that ground a little bit. And you d and you said earlier that maybe you had walked a little bit of it, but mostly the battlefields or what other research did you do as you you know, just to understand the terrain? You know, maybe talk about the terrain from you know, the wide ranging terrains that they had to deal with and and the challenges of that. That's a huge part of the story, is just the terrain of Montana. my goodness. speaker-1: absolutely. You know, yeah, from well you know, if you're at all familiar with the the Mullen Road, which you know, of course there's a Mullen Pass west of south and west of Helena, you know, it it basically went from Fort Benton, it tied Fort Walla Walla and Fort Benton together back in the early s eighteen sixties. you know, and it of course went through Sun River Crossing and Fort Shaw. on down through I believe through the Wolf Creek Canyon and followed the Missouri largely to where Helen now is and then it kinda hooked west over through a what they thought was the best route over to eastern Washington. But even that, you know, say from Port Benton to the where the Mullin Trail ran out. That was tremendous variety of terrain and a lot of ups and downs, a lot of vertical terrain. or where the book ends, you know, up north of the Bearpaw Mountains, you know, if you go north from Fort Benton, you're seeing a lot of flat ground. It's all good wheat land now. Dryland, wheat farming and such, but there's a lot of alkali up there. And that alkali, you know, that's not unique to that area, you know, the troops coming from Dakota Territory encountered a lot of alkaline water. You know, all the troops did. You know, Gibbons column was down more along the Yellowstone so they more frequently had good water supplies. But sometimes they were just drinking out of a pothole on the prairies. And if you wanted to get into details of the little bighorn one factor might be, you know, were their horses exhausted? night before the battle, Custer's troops were camped in a ravine where the only water source was so alkaline, even the horses wouldn't drink it. The men tried to make coffee and it was so bad they couldn't drink it. So I you know, they they dehydration might have been one of the factors there, but kind of referencing back to a previous question, you know, the Little Bighorn battle was really historically was fairly insignificant, you know, in the scheme of things. I and more perceptive historians realize it as such. speaker-0: But doesn't it take a perceptive historian because when I'm asked, you live in Montana? Have you been to Custer at all? They don't talk about anything else in my opinion. speaker-1: Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's something we're known for, especially this year and during the hundred and fiftieth anniversary year of that battle as well as, you know, it occurred right on the doorstep of the nation's first centennial. And the news really hit the east about the time they were celebrating the centennial. speaker-0: So was it just was it just a timing thing then? In terms of the it got it noticed by the press? Or you know what I mean? speaker-1: Well, I think it was more the the magnitude of it. You know, the US military had not suffered a defeat like that, you know. Suffered a lot of defeats during the American Civil War. You know, the Union started, you know, in the first couple of years they hardly won a battle it seemed. And i i and my first book that this is based off of kind of deals with that, you know, the battle at Antietam or Sharpsburg, Maryland. gave Lincoln enough momentum. It it was hardly more than a stalemate, but it gave Lincoln enough momentum to ins issue his Emancipation Proclamation. so that's kind of a hint toward where where both books are going. But You know, in the post Civil War era there'd been some setbacks. But other than the Fetterman fight out of you know, between well, Fort Phil Kearney, located between Sheridan and Buffalo, Wyoming, you know, resulted in a death of Fetterman and eighty a force of eighty people, two civilians and seventy eight soldiers. and that was a shocker to a lot of people, but it didn't really grip the nation the way the Custer battle did. And I part of that, well, I That could be partially due to well, time and other factors, you know, there'd been a lot of conflict and controversy over the Black Hills and you know, the Bozeman Trail. of course Fetterman's fight centered on the Bozeman Trail and the use of it and the conflicts around it. speaker-0: Well, again Montana's just riddled with like that's why I say history. It's so funny when we use the word history. Like out in Fairfield, I used to go out to a place called Cleve. It was a town. Cleve, Montana. Have you ever heard of Cleve? speaker-1: I've heard of it, but I couldn't speaker-0: Yeah, it was on the not the family place, but the one of he was i i it married into the family, so I'd go out there and just check it out and they'd they they would have in handwriting like the mercantile they drew the town. you know what I mean? So you could see on the wall like if you need to go to the mercantile and this and that and it's very old, you know. i it wasn't that old. yeah. And and I I've talked to people, you know, people that came from Minnesota in the early nineteen hundreds and they were eighty-five and you know, on just when I had gotten to Montana and visiting with them and well, how'd you stay warm? Well, we didn't have power, we didn't have plumbing, we burned cow patties, we yeah, you know. Again, our history's pretty young in terms of Montana, you know. I'm sure there's a lot written about it more than I realize, but there there's th the West has still been being kind of written about in a way to to record what happened. It's still being written, in my opinion. You know, for you know. And there's a worldwide fascination with the West, right? Montana, Cowboys speaker-1: yeah, absolutely. speaker-0: fascinated by the West, you know, our our American West history, really. Isn't that true? speaker-1: Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, some of the popular movies of course reflect that and that's more entertainment than history by far. But but yes, I think it's you know, it in fact when I was in college I I took a course and I it was a disappointing course for me, but but I it was titled The Great West in American History. But this professor, you know, got to the end of the semester and posed the question, you know, that China as a nation had had looked at the settlement of our American West and thought that we need to do that. And they were asking Americans how we did that or how how we went about it. You know, and of course if you knew the real history, it's i you know, I don't wanna say it's all one sided by any means. You know, there were lot of atrocities committed by whites as well as the native tribes and a lot of misunderstandings. You know, you had one culture that was based not on land ownership but just the ability to roam freely throughout the land and they had everything they needed with buffalo and and you know, largely buffalo and a few horses and where you know, maybe not a few 'cause horses were wealth and and very utilitarian, you know, so, you know, there was kind of the clash of cultures, but ultimately a lot of broken treaties and agreed in one form or another. Not necessarily treaties broken by the government, but by people who snuck in w under under the radar so to speak. You know, and that both in the Black Hills as one example or using the Bozeman Trail to get to the goldfields through the heart of some of the best hunting grounds that those tribes had. you know, it's under easy enough to understand their animosity. speaker-0: one hundred percent. And I think again we alluded to the prehistory before we got here I don't I don't know if it's new to any culture where envy envy says, I want what you have and I hate you for having it. Envy says it's speaking out loud, it's screaming across the culture. I want what you have, Dan, and you know what, I hate you for having what you have. And that's in every culture, it's in almost every human being on the planet. If that's not put in check, you s you get the atrocities, you get the moral outrage of history a little bit when you see things done. And and it is there is greed, there is envy, there is character flaws in leadership or wherever it comes from that lead to these historical events that you're writing about. You know, we underestimate that that's kind of flowing through all of history. But in your book, what would what would be one of like, you know, not telling on Jed, but just I think Jed had some conflicts within him about he was a duty guy. I'm gonna do my job and I'm gonna do a good job. And then at the same time, I don't think he liked everything that was going on. So he was in conflict, right? speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. You know, in the book he you know, in the first book, his empathy for slaves, including his family's slaves, is what led to his initial conflict and and he in effect found a way to change all that. and just as a part of the bridge, you know, Custer was a very successful ultimately a general in the American Civil War, very young. fact the youngest person at that time to be promoted to the rank of general, maybe ever since. A and he had he did some very influential things, particularly at Gettysburg, I believe. He had a huge effect on the outcome of that battle, as well as the subsequent hour course of the American, you know, the nation's history. But then he also went into the Shenandoah under General Phil Sheridan and they had kind of a scorched earth policy. so that's from that book that's where the c the contact with Jed Morgan and his family originates. but then it carries into the current book and it but in the in the current book you'll find that Jed, the lead character, has reservations, you know, part partially in due to or in relation to some customers' post Civil War conflicts. You say the turn the name Washita or Washita, I don't know the correct speaker-0: I think it's Washita. speaker-1: Okay. Yeah, and it's a pretty notorious battle. I I don't I don't think most of the public knows what led up to that. You know, just like the little bighorn, it wasn't a standalone battle. as if cavalry was just riding around looking for somebody to attack. And the same thing with Washita, you know, there was raids and depredations that led to that. Unfortunately the wrong village got attacked and but even within that village there were atrocities committed against white captives that were being held there. So, You know, it's it's it's important to know the whole history, but the lead character in this book he's empathetic toward the people who were attacked unjustly and you know, there's a you know, it references the Sand Creek massacre under Shivington. Really black mark on American history. And some other atrocities. You know, so he he carries with him this infinite emp empathy initially. but then in the book his perspective changes and I I don't know if I should give away too much. speaker-0: No, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. speaker-1: But y you know, and then when he goes to the big hole, you know, all he wants is revenge against any Indian. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: And we're talking you know, we're dealing with two totally separate conflicts. you know, the Sioux and Cheyenne over in western Wyoming, what's now western Wyoming and what eastern or excuse me, eastern Wyoming, eastern Montana and the western Dakotas, you know, from there over to say the Walla Valley where the Nisperse conflict originated. lot of common ground there. The the Nezpers conflict was a result of treaties from early eighteen fifties and then the eighteen sixties that were broken every time. It had to do with greed, you know, settlers first they wanted farmland, then they wanted gold that had been found there. And you know, it finally broke loose. Well, atrocities were committed against members of the tribe. And finally when the tribe was told by the US military, you have to move on to this y you know, the old reservation doesn't count anymore. Or the lands, you know, a lot of them were recognized as non treaty tribes and they were allowed to live in their homeland. They were suddenly given thirty days to move onto a postage damp sized reservation that belonged to different bands within the Nez Perce tribe. And there were other factors, you know, they had livestock that they had to move young calves and colts and, you know, in the spring of the year they were told no, you gotta if you want that, you gotta move it across the I believe it was the Snake River speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: onto this reservation and you know, it just it is you know, as as with early eighteen seventy six, these Indians were told, well, by an order was issued in December of eighteen seventy five that you gotta be on reservations by January thirty first. Which, you know, anybody that's not even realistic in modern vehicles a lot of times. Yeah. You know, and much less to these folks that traveled by foot or horseback. you know, so inevitably conflicts arose. But anyway, two separate conflicts. The lead character Jed Morgan after the first one he develops an animosity and he wants to take it out on the second group that is coming into Montana territory. Right. And his eyes are kinda opened at that big hole battle, seeing the atrocities that are committed by the attackers against Indians who hadn't posted sentries. They thought they were safe where they were and So so yeah, the book kinda reflects a a change in his perspective and a a recognition that Well it uses the analogy of a cottonwood tree that rots from the inside. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that was good. Well, you know, and when you think and and then when you just listening to you talk about this as history in our back and is still affecting today. You know what I mean, in my opinion. This history has not gone away. Like it's still affecting relationships here in the state, right? it it definitely has a history still. Still speaker-1: yeah. speaker-0: absolutely so you know, what are the applications? Can you see of any applications for present day? Now I'm not talking just Montana, but you know, when you realize that, you know, I I mentioned before the show, no, the battle for resources is on for the country world, you know, whether you believe that or not. You know, and we don't need to get into that, but No, there's definitely a battle for, you know, who the top dog or whatever you want to do. I I still think what you mentioned earlier about enmity and envy and greed and those are drivers. And and we're not necessarily operating that as individuals, but sometimes when nation states do or militaries or whatever, it can get really dangerous. You know. speaker-1: yes, absolutely. Y yeah, and I think I well, I've long seen what I consider a a a second or maybe now a third westward expansion, you know. But it's ideological. It's you know, you've got the Maybe I'll call it the liberal mentality where they want to force their values onto speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: other people. you know, whether it's forcing males, pretending to be females, into females' bathrooms, locker. Yeah, I mean, there's just unthinkable. things going on and and they want to force that ideaology on other people. so some of it's not real material or physical expansion, but it's still a kind of a takeover of other people's culture and values or an attempt. And there's two sides to that. speaker-0: Yeah. Well that's interesting. I never the way you're framing that, I've never even thought about that. That that there's an ideological manifest destiny occurring. And we're speaker-1: There is. speaker-0: And it it is sweeping the culture very challenging subjects, is what you're mentioning. And and they are challenging. They're challenging it just as individuals, as communities, as churches, you know, you know, and i it it the the the push to f for you know again having control of resources or w what's ever going on is you might be right on the money, showing up with ideology, not necessarily a punch in the nose, you know? That's interesting. speaker-1: Yes. But it i well, there's the punches in the nose as well, you know, and Yeah. And you know, looking back to twenty twenty, some of the y you know, that's probably the worst example of some of the rioting that went on and the speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: destruction in the name of ideology and speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: the disrespect for our our flag, our country. You know, and there's a lot of I think feeble attempts on the part of some organizations to kind of backtrack and salvage their tarnished reputations from that, but you know, athletic leagues and such I I don't want to get overly specific. speaker-0: No, you no, you're not wrong and and we're not even trying to be political. It's just the fact of what's going on in the culture. Yeah. And and the truth of it is is I think we you know, I I I taught a class probably eight ten, fifteen years ago and we're not real men anymore. Real men speak, real men have an opinion, real men work, real men, you know yeah. You know, it was fourteen things that real men actually do, you know. Sure. And I I'm focused quite heavily on young men and I feel like they've been under attack for fifty, sixty years and I wouldn't include myself in that. Sure. In a sense of I can remember things in high school and college that I never even recognized till later. Like they're actually have chosen a winner and it ain't us. You know speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You know what I mean? And then I see my sons fall behind me and the challenges they've had to do, they have four boys and my other son has three boys and a daughter. So we got a lot of grandkids and all those kind of things. But the history that's occurring right now, we're living through They're gonna write volumes about because and you you're the one that said it that it's an ideological revolution in many ways, and you know, who's gonna come out on top of that, you know? So history, we're living in probably some pretty dramatic history and don't even maybe recognize it like we should. You know what I mean? speaker-1: Probably, yes. yeah, I I fully believe that and and I don't know 'cause there's so many various media nowadays, you know, some of it's driven more heavily by media bias, you know, I I think you have to recognize that. so how many me you know, which medium or how many various media will get the biggest voice or s squeak the loudest. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: You know, I think that drives a lot of it. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, you know, bringing it in you know, y y you just realize yeah, my wife and I always say that history is fairly cycli cyclical, that meaning it just keeps repeating. It's the same history, just say doing it the same way over and over again. You know, that's the way we say it. But yeah. And I think there's some truth in that with when you look at your story and the conflicts just in even in these things and the characters you've developed, in your book, that that history kinda is just going just kind of cyclically going over and over again. it's different now with AI. It's different now with you know pe you know, there's a lot of different things going on, but it's maybe the same. It it's hard and we I I am I'm just guessing. I'm not trying to say anything other than that. But it just seems like there's something to all that. speaker-1: You know, it seems to me that's the case. There's you know, who and I'm sure we're all guilty at some level but we we want our cultural values to pervade, to win in the elections. speaker-0: Here. speaker-1: You know, those who want to change it wanna force their values, you know, over the top of what what's currently in place. speaker-0: Sure. speaker-1: so I think yeah, I think there's definitely a cyclical aspect to that. And I might toss out, you know, as a conservative you know, but I I'm also a public lands advocate. You know, finding the right balance, going back, say, to the establishment of the US Forest Service, is one example. Thankfully that was, you know, Teddy Roosevelt and Gifford Pinchot astutely put that under our agriculture department because it's a renewable resource and, you know, serves multiple uses. And thankfully, like our current politicians here in Montana have stood and pr protected public lands for, you know, as they say, keep public lands in public hands. But yeah, even upcoming elections are gonna be heavily influenced, if not decided, by stances on public land protection versus silly ideas like selling it off or or making the states manage as if we have speaker-0: Yeah. It's interesting. i if you don't if you're not reading history and and growing your your depth in in history, then you can't really hardy navigate what you're in right now, in my opinion. sure. You know, you're as an author and as an is historian and the research you've done, it's amazing how you just pull this battle and this guy and Zimmerman and you're just firing names off. You've got quite a depth of knowledge there that again most people don't have and and and that has to help you kind of guide your life even, you know, you're retired now I'm assuming, right? speaker-1: Yes I am. speaker-0: So, you know, even now you're still learning, you're still growing, you're still maturing, and it's still in all the things you've done to prepare for this book are helping you. Wouldn't you say that? speaker-1: Yes, absolutely. You know, I and I just happen to have a personal interest in in that aspect of history as well as a lot of others. so you know I think that all helps, you know, answer your initial questions. What what I don't know if there was a single moment that led to the idea that I should create this book. But all that knowledge i you know, and I've I've gained in researching it more in depth I've gained a lot more knowledge, but just having that general picture of all these different players and characters, kind of contributed to this and then then you look at it, you know, and w we are still like the Black Hills, were a huge source of conflict in the mid eighteen seventies, partially due to an economic depression, the panic of eighteen seventy three. we're still fighting battles over use of public resources and y you know. And we need we need certain resources for national security, economic security, et cetera. And you know, there's always a conflict between a hands off approach and a take it all approach. You know, somewhere in the middle there needs to be some common sense and you know, I think, you know, looking at various aspects of history might help reach that middle ground. speaker-0: Right. Well, I'm gonna put up a graphic of where on this is a quick snapshot of Amazon and it's really easy to find, just so you know. I d all I did is I started with Dan Cherry and it literally started feeding me content below and your book came up first shot. So they can they can do the title or your name and they can go to Amazon and and and pick up this book. It's a great read. I I'm a reader by habit, so I my wife always cracks up on how fast. I read but just loved it. I got into the story and I won't tell on some of it, but it was just yeah, it it was good. Definitely a good read. And especially since I lived in Fort Shaw. I had a Fort Shaw address for twenty-four years. So you know what I mean? And and and so I I it it's interesting to be living in some of these areas that were in your book. I thought that was that for me that was interesting. speaker-1: yeah, absolutely. speaker-0: No, and then and then just just this whole area is full of stories and things that are that are really haven't been discovered yet. So but anyway, you can go to Amazon, you can find it there. It's really easy. great read. You won't regret it. we need to support Dan and he's got some more projects coming. Why why don't you just tell us a little bit about that? you got a third book coming up in this series and is we'll maybe lay a little outline without telling them much. speaker-1: Okay. the third book was actually the second one that I roughed out, and ideally it would have come out the first book came out in two thousand twelve to coincide with the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the Antietam battle in the American Civil War. the ne next book would be titled, at least a rough working title, is Goldfields to Gettysburg. it ties a lot of Montana history in not only with the Battle of Gettysburg, but it it kinda takes descendants of the lead character from the first book into modern times and then uses that current main character, that descendant as a history student. he starts digging in and yeah, this is all fiction, but he finds a connection between say the you know, the Montana history of eighteen sixty three and what was going on in the American Civil War in eighteen sixty three. And even ties in Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. But I I know I won't tip the hand too much. But so, you know, I hope to have that out. It's actually through two drafts, but I haven't looked at it in at least half a dozen years. So I'm gonna have to dust that off now and kinda get it into a a working or a functional publishable copy. speaker-0: Yeah. So is writing hard for you? Is it hard to sit down and do it? Or what's the challenge or is it just the research takes ten, twelve years? You know what I mean? Because seems like you have a your brain's flowing with dates and times and names. speaker-1: Y yes, and you'll find in relation particularly to the little bighorn and somewhat the the Nez Perce flight through Montana. my brain's flowing with that because I've been researching that more heavily recently. But but yeah, all all these topics, you know, including the American Civil War that I've had quite an interest in. I've still got a lot of a lot of facts and names rattling around in there. but yes, to I would say the research does take a lot of time. if I were to sit down and write nonfiction, once I gather all the information, I find the writing pretty easy. put it into novel form or fiction, I find it a lot more difficult for the simple reason that it well, it requires you to really picture the the places, the conversations, the you know, everything that happened and You've gotta give enough description to paint a good picture, but not so much that you bogged down and bore the reader and I don't know that I've achieved that. I hope I have, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, sure. I think you're doing a great job. And I think it's hopefully it's just the beginning. You're you're s you're still a young man. I hate to say how old are you? three. You got a long way to go. speaker-1: sixty three. You can wear I hope so. speaker-0: You know what I mean? So it it's I think you got a lot a lot ahead of you. I I would promote everything you're doing too and and help do that. And I I just love the idea that someone creates anything. I think that's a lost art. You know my podcast is the pioneer podcast, and the pioneer is like the scout, whether you re realize it or not. It's a French term that means to prepare the way. Sure. A pioneer pre prepares the way, a pioneer starts every story. Pioneer goes way out front when everyone else is holding back to see it. Let's see if he lives. Let's see if he makes it. You know what I mean? Sure. You go out there and then send us a message back. You know what I mean? Yes. That's what these pioneers are have done. And a lot of times they left because of necessity. They weren't making it. They were stuck and you know, maybe starving to death. Hey, I there's a gold rush out west or whatever. They whatever drew them, they just knew that they needed to pursue opportunity because they getting it where they're at. So pioneers that took off across this country, they absolutely prepared the way for everything that has ever occurred, in my opinion. And you know, and that's what this podcast is about with my oil foot guys pioneering. They're they're digging, they're they're drilling 25,000 foot wells into the dark with guessing. Absolutely guessing. Spending six to eight million dollars on a well so we can drive cars, have shoes, clothes, everything comes from it. And and you know, you can whatever vo point of view you have, I have one that it saves the nation. That's my point of view on oil, gas, and energy. You know, again, I'm a multi-use guy too, but I also know that this is absolutely critical for the lifeblood of the country. So those companies and you know, whatever you think about AI, there there's some people pioneering some things there that good and bad, in my opinion. You know, we need to talk about About both sides, like you said earlier, with the history, there's good, there's a yang and yang with history, you know, the in terms of good and bad, right, are going on. So yeah, it's it's pretty powerful stuff. But you know, again, as an author and what you've done here, and you know, we want to promote the book. I encourage you, anyone who's listening, and we'll put this out there on all the podcasts. You know, check out the book. we we want you to enjoy and Learn as much as you can, be a reader. And I always end with learn a language, start an in learn an instrument, you know. I learned banjo a few years back, guitar a few years back. Wow, you know, that kind of thing. And so just just be a learner and check out Dan's book. I don't think you regret it. thanks for joining us today. And thank you, Dan, for joining us. We just appreciate you coming and and hopefully we can do this again. speaker-1: I hope so. Thank you for having me here. speaker-0: Problem. Thank you, bud.