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The 4 Energy Zones Every Leader Must Master · Harder Than Life

• 0:07
  I'm Kelly Siegel, and this is Harder Than Life, a podcast about self-love, self-awareness, business, and health. We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple, practical advice you can start using today. Let's get living.
• 0:23
  Welcome back to the Hunter Life Podcast. Today's guest, Klaus Kleinfeld, is the only leader to have successfully served as CEO of two Fortune 500 giants on different continents, Siemens in Germany and Alcoa in the United States.
• 0:38
  Over his nearly 40-year career, he steered global companies through transformational change, advised U.S. presidents and world leaders, and driven innovation in industries ranging from manufacturing and technology to biotech and urban development.
• 0:54
  Today, as founder of K2 Elevation, Klaus invests in cutting-edge tech and biotech firms while mentoring leaders to excel without sacrificing their health and happiness. He also has a book out, Leading to Thrive, Mastering Strategies for Sustainable Success in Business and Life, that we're going to unpack today. Welcome, my new friend.
• 1:15
  Thank you very much, Kelly. Pleasure to be here. As I said before we hit record, my life just keeps unfolding in the most amazing ways. And we've had to reschedule a couple of times. And today is going to be a masterclass. So people, get your notepad out. Mr. Kleinfeld has forgotten more about business than I'll ever know. And I'm going to do my best to try to share it with you.
• 1:35
  In 2020, my friend, I first heard of EQ, emotional intelligence. And now I just had to separate from somebody at my IT company because of a lack of emotional intelligence. Why, in your estimation, is emotional intelligence more important nowadays than intellectual capacity?
• 1:59
  Well, I wouldn't say it's more important, but it's something that very often gets overlooked, you know, and I think that in many ways it is as important and sometimes, I mean, it's lacking more than the intellectual skills because we have a measurement for the intellectual side, but we don't have one for EQ.
• 2:16
  The reason is because what EQ in the end does, it measures the capability that you can put yourself into somebody else's shoes. And I think communication, effective leadership communication is literally about two things. You can use the approach of a gun, you know, hold the gun to somebody's head and say, do something.
• 2:37
  You know, you can do that. That's the, I would say, old style, you know. It rarely works these days because talent can choose and we are all hunting for talent and they will leave in the end, you know. So, therefore, the approach of basically attracting people through giving them an idea on why this is better to work for you, what they can achieve themselves, what they can do to others, you know, what they can bring to the world –
• 3:04
  And my view has become a very, very, very critical skill that you need in this enormously brutal war on talent. Thank you for that. How can the listeners become more emotionally intelligent?
• 3:18
  First of all, you have to be aware of this. Secondly, you have to understand, you know, to convince somebody you have to get through on their mind. So communication is about the other side. You have to convince the other person. It's not about whether you convince yourself with your own arguments. You have to convince the other person to make a change in their attitude and ideally make a change also in their behavior.
• 3:45
  So you also have to know how the other person processes information and there are different styles. I mean, some people are more open to facts, you know, and you just go through a logical chain and that convinces them. Other people are much more about the feel, you know, how does it feel to me? And you have to understand that if you want to be effective, you have to really, the more you adapt to the person who you want to convince, the better off you are.
• 4:15
  What are some of the tests? If I'm a business owner, which a lot of my followers are business owners, if I'm a business owner, how can I measure emotional intelligence?
• 4:25
  Well, in the end, I think I would start with how do you measure your effectiveness on leadership? You know, so because in the end, I mean, as leaders, as leaders, my definition of leaders is very simple. A great leader is somebody who can make people do what you want them to do at a certain point in time. And as I said, there are two ways. There's the carrot and the whip. You know, the whip works. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it works.
• 4:51
  rarely works in environments today because of the talent competition. So we are with a carrot. So the question is, what's the carrot? In some places, the carrot is, you put in front of them a rich compensation package, but that also only goes so far. And the question is, you know, what else is there? And that goes back to the thing, how can you sync what your company does with what an individual wants to achieve in their life? You know, very often I've seen,
• 5:20
  when I wanted to convince top software engineers to come or stay, to give, it was not about compensation. It was very much about what do I do? What technical problem do I solve? What skills do I provide? How do I train them? What software tools can they work with? What type of computer hardware can they get their hands on? That was the thing that drove them most. And what problems do I solve, you know?
• 5:45
  And so it really depends. But the more you think about it, what is the motivation on the other side? That is the better off you are as a leader. Yeah, I find it's the personal why. Why do they go to work every morning? Exactly. I actually have a list of that. When I met with my team and I gave them their year-end bonus and their 401k matching, I asked each individual person,
• 6:12
  what their personal why was for 2025. And I refer to it in meetings. And one of my leadership team goes, why do you always do that? And I was like, oh, I forgot to share with you guys. So I had to share it with the rest of my leaders and say, here's all of our people's why, so you might wanna manage to this. And they're like, oh, that's brilliant. And it works, it does.
• 6:33
  So I was reviewing the book notes this morning, just to brush up for today, because we rescheduled a couple times. And I believe in fate and God. And I went right to the building or high-performance teams. And I zeroed in on the, you kept people too long. And that's what I do, because I literally...
• 6:57
  I believe in everybody. I believe most people are good. Most people are giving their best. And I hold on to people so much longer than I should. So will you enlighten the reader or the listeners on why that is? Because I'm sure there's many of us out there.
• 7:14
  Well, if my wife were here, this is where she is. She is my biggest critic. I mean, this is one of the biggest weakness I have, certainly. And funny enough, I mean, that you say you have the same. It is not uncommon. A lot of leaders say when you ask them, even very successful ones, that I waited too long in making changes. And that's definitely true on me. The process of choosing people to get onto my core team is rigorous, right? So very rigorous. But the moment they are in...
• 7:43
  they are in. So I start with trust then. In a way, they've earned their trust through a certain process, but then I have trust in them. And in most cases, this doesn't disappoint me. But what you see is the organizational requirements very often also change. I mean, it's a dynamic world. So what was good in this role yesterday might not be enough next year anymore. And then you sometimes see that the person is not getting up
• 8:12
  to this, you know, and I always hope that it will work. But in the end, the first, and I have my rule of three now, you know, so that when I very strongly work with feedback, I think feedback is very important and you have to give feedback as soon as possible, as close to the action.
• 8:31
  Do it one-on-one, not with other people around, you know. So do it one-on-one, be as precise as you can, but also do it with respect to separate between here are the hard facts on performance. This is my description on performance. But before you go there, it is very often very useful to say, hey, I love your style. I love you as a person. We are friends very often. I mean, I'm sure you have that set. Yeah.
• 8:56
  You had people walking the way with you for quite a while, you know, and you still feel that they are not going to make the next step or not the right people in the role anymore or have been promoted in a role where it's not a fit.
• 9:11
  I tell you, as long as you make the respectful and separate the person, I mean, affection to the individual, the respect for the individual, from the performance in the role. And be crystal clear, the role requires X, Y, Z, but I'm not seeing that. And we've tried this out, and I typically then wait, strike one, wait for a second one, and then with strike three, I basically go for a change.
• 9:37
  That has done me well, but I still very often waited too long. And what another interesting thing is many people shy away from this conversations. I think it helps if you use this hard fact separation from my emotions to you have not changed. I'm very positive to you as an individual. I mean, your achievements don't go away, but there's no fit with the current role or with the requirements.
• 9:58
  that this role has going forward. Very often I've seen once this is all on the table, there is actually a relief on the other side because people sense that they are not making the cut and it's extremely painful to them as it is painful to you if you leave them in the role for too long.
• 10:17
  What I heard was right person, right seat, attack the person, not the issue, and the brilliance behind every single- The other way around, attack the issue, not the person. Oh, that's right, attack the issue. You're right, sorry. I was gonna get to the funny one with the third one, was listen to your wife. Because I'm gonna tell you, my girlfriend listens to my conversations with my leadership team, and she always points out, you realize that you're talking about so-and-so a lot lately.
• 10:44
  And I'm like, oh, and I don't even realize that there could be an issue there. And she points that out. So your wife does that too. Same thing. Same thing. Pick a good partner, guys. Pick a good partner. Same thing. Same thing. I mean, and typically I think the reason why is because it's Sunday morning, you know, I have a routine.
• 11:02
  that I take the dog and go for a long walk in the forest, you know, and, and I tell her, look, I can't do it. I have to get on a couple of calls, have to do a few things, you know, so I'd be free from noon at noon, you know, and she'd say, well, what's going on? I said, Oh, you know, John, blah, blah, blah. And then she looks at me and he said, Klaus, remind me who hired John. It's terrible, terrible.
• 11:30
  It's horrible. Horrible. We still love her. So everything that I read in this book, I mean...
• 11:38
  It's uncanny. I'm reading the 9% from Candy Valentino. It's uncanny how it's all the same. Literally, running a business is the same. We use the carrot, the stick, the three-strike rule, everything that you're saying, I use every day. So for successful business people, you can get one process and run it through a lot. But the one that, besides EQ, the second one is energy. So you speak energy.
• 12:08
  very in-depth about energy versus time management. So how did you personally transition from time management, which is what a lot of people talk about, to energy management, which I absolutely love because there are certain days I'm dead by 10 o'clock in the morning, and it's like...
• 12:28
  What happened? Exactly. As so many things in life, my transition was abrupt because a friend came in the door and said, you've been all wrong, Klaus. You know, he was working with me, you know, and he knew that that didn't go down well with me. He really poked. It was late in the evening already, you know, and I was still in the office.
• 12:47
  He said, you got it all wrong. So what's it? What did I get wrong? It's not about time management. My mantra at that time was life is like an ultra marathon, you know, and I was running marathons, funny enough, you know, didn't make that connection, you know, but I was running marathons and enjoyed them, you know, and.
• 13:05
  And he said, no, it's all about energy. And that's got me into this. And when you think about it, it is so obvious. It is so obvious, you know. And then the question comes up, okay. But that was the other thing that I saw. I saw also in the corporate world, people were burning out. But I also saw it in the young generation. And when people were doing their startups, people were burning out even at a young age.
• 13:30
  And I thought, this is terrible. And what concept are they following? They seem to be pushing, pushing, pushing, and not understanding is also about regenerating. I mean, downtime is productive time. And then I thought, what's happening in the high-performance sports world? And the high-performance sports world,
• 13:48
  It's the counter that's happening. The top performers, instead of staying shorter, they stay longer. They get older. They get older. And that got me looking into what are they doing? And you see that this whole high-performance group all work with energy management. Then the question is, what gives you energy? What is energy? And you say, oh, there's only four sources of energy. Ah, that's simple. There's the physical side. There's the emotional side. There's the mental side. And there's the spiritual side.
• 14:18
  And then on top of it comes the binding, which is the why of the purpose. You know, so so and once I got this, I then said, well, now I have to dive in deeper to understand how can I make sure I get more energy and how can I make sure that I conserve energy, that I don't lose so much energy. I'm happy to talk about more.
• 14:39
  Yeah, please keep going on the four energy. That's my next one. Go on the four energy quadrants. Try to work in practical examples of it because people hear this from me nonstop. I do Thursday episodes where I break down exactly what I do. Now, I'm a little intense. I run 120 miles an hour and I run hot. But I recharge. And then I'm very, very tired.
• 15:05
  judicious with who has access to me because they're called energy vampires i can't handle i cannot be with somebody who sucks the life out of me that is and it's not about somebody it's even about the environment you know sometimes the environment sitting in a shitty place you know and and that's why you see this is my home office
• 15:25
  You know, and this is my energy sources, you know, that's my Feng Shui, you know. So, so, okay, let's start with the physical side. Physical side is most well understood by most people. It's about workout, moving the body, drinking while sleeping, you know, breathing also that, that, that is that side.
• 15:42
  You know, I'm not going to go into that because most people understand it, you know. But the thing already where it stops is on the emotional side. Most people don't understand that the emotion is completely in your own control. So because the emotion is what is your response to an outside kind of situation. So by the way, that's the emotional intelligence you're talking about. Just to point out.
• 16:09
  Exactly. But that's part of it, you know. But that means that you can train yourself not to fall into the trap of some people basically trying to drain your energy. They don't necessarily do this intentionally. It just happens. Or in high-stress situations, you know, where I've had many high-stress negotiations where I knew what I wanted, you know. And the other side was trying to exert something from me and tire me out.
• 16:39
  And by triggering certain things, you have what I use is because it should not be noticeable. I can't say I take some time out and I'm going to do some meditation outside. You know, I use breathing. I use basically breathing.
• 16:55
  Breathing and without the other side noticing that I'm completely concentrating on my breathing. I'm partially ignoring what they say. Yes, I do listen, you know, but but but and I'm not going to fall into their traps. I'm going to tell them what my line is, you know, and I'm going to sit there and say, you know.
• 17:13
  This is not about me. This is really what they want me to respond. I am in control of my own emotion. That's really, really important. The other thing that's really important is on the mental side. The mental side is the focus.
• 17:29
  And I think that distinguishes really good leaders from others. Most of the leaders who have achieved something are very good on shifting their focus. There's a story about that encompasses this very nicely about the old shoemaker who has two sons, wants to pass his business on, doesn't know who of the sons to pass it on, sends them to Africa.
• 17:51
  The one sends back a note and says, well, father, I have very bad news. Everybody's barefoot. There's no market. The other one sends a note back, father, amazing news. Send me as many shoes as you can. You can send this is this market is endless. Everybody is going barefoot.
• 18:09
  You know, so and that I've seen this many times myself, but I've also seen it in other leaders when they look at a certain situation, they don't just listen to the common wisdom, to the common view. They actually look at it very often also with a different lens and say, on purpose, is there something else? Is there an opportunity where...
• 18:28
  People see a challenge. I see an opportunity. And that also comes down to simple things like you get a news from, I mean, if you are in a top job, you get a lot of crappy things. All the bad things bubble up to you. Not all the good things, you know, but all the bad things do bubble up to you because your organization is not able to.
• 18:48
  to handle them themselves. So you can easily fall into the trap that you think, wow, we are in a complete disaster zone. Unless you have a capability to say, well, let's focus on what really matters. This thing works, this thing works, this thing works, this thing works. That's not okay. That's completely broken. I can fix that. Done. So the reframing, the reframing is an important thing. There's a, now that we're talking about it, there's a great analysis around two potential plane crashes. One crash, that's a Brazilian plane,
• 19:17
  And when you compare what happened, what is the conversation between the pilots, you know, the conversation on the Brazilian plane, they didn't even talk to each other. They didn't develop a mental model. Whereas the other situation was a plane that was more damaged even. They developed a concept of what is working instead of what's not working and said, well, everything that we have on a chestnut is working.
• 19:42
  Right. We can fly a chestnut. It happens to be a jet, you know, but we can fly a chestnut. We can land a chestnut. We land this thing like a chestnut. You know, the rest is not working and they survived, you know. So classical case reframing mental focus and the spiritual side is not at all talked about in business. You mentioned it just just a minute ago, and I'm glad that you mentioned it.
• 20:08
  And most people say it's about, is there a bigger purpose? Is there a bigger why, you know, in the world? But I also would say, allow the word God in your world, you know, or whatever you call it, you know, because I can, from my own experience, say this is an enormously powerful source of energy, particularly in very, very dark times, you know.
• 20:29
  And then the binding force of all of this is the purpose, because what purpose does to energy is it takes this diffuse energy and focuses around one or a number of things like what a laser does to light. And that then breaks through. And what you just said, you get up in the morning and you feel tired at 10.00.
• 20:50
  If you have a purpose, this does not happen to you. You actually wake up in the morning. You are reminded there's this thing that I want to do. Get out of the bed. Let's get going. You know? There was so many good gems in that. But you know the one that I laser focused on? Because it's very fitting for everything in life, which was find the area that
• 21:14
  which is working and or which you agree on. If we could do this in the United States in politics, what do we agree on? We agree that we all believe the United States of America to be the greatest country on earth. Let's work out from there and go backwards. But instead we start from the places we disagree on, what's not working, and we try to come in –
• 21:36
  But the emotional also can make you physical. It all runs together. It's so beautiful. But I don't think you went into the four energy quadrants.
• 21:45
  Oh, yeah, that's now the dynamic of energy, you know. So we first have to, which is actually the most important thing, is to understand where do you get energy from, where can it go out, and what mechanisms do you have to basically trick the system, you know. The second question is, you know, now how do you, going through the course of the day, you know, how do you manage, and are they the dynamics?
• 22:09
  So you have four quadrants, you know, you have the performance quadrant, which basically allows you to have high energy and positive energy, you know, you perform. What happens then if something unexpected comes, you know?
• 22:27
  So you immediately shift into overdrive, you know, and you are now in the survival zone. You know, you're basically saying, oops, something bad happened. Now, the cool thing in survival zone is our flight and fight mechanism in the body kicks in. So adrenaline pushes out. For a certain while, you become superhuman.
• 22:49
  Really superhuman. And every one of us has seen that. And what happens is your focus normally is like this, broad. But the moment something really problematic happens, it goes like this. You literally don't see the other things. You focus on something. You feel like, wow, I got the power. I don't need sleep. The whole rest of the body physically shuts down. Digestion shuts down. And you can do amazing things.
• 23:12
  So, but this only lasts for a certain while. If you don't move back into the performance or the renewal zone, right? You burn out, boom, you drop down into the burnout zone, right? And the come back from the burnout to survival or even to performance zone, impossible.
• 23:30
  are very, very difficult, right? So what you have to find, you have to find ways how you get yourself quickly from the survival zone back into the performance zone. The way you do it is by finding mental models, for instance, by saying, oh, okay, this looks bad, but I've seen this picture before and I know what to do.
• 23:50
  And I'm going to do X, Y, Z. The example that I have in the book as a case study is Sully Sullivan landing the plane on the Hudson. Masterpiece of energy management. Why could he do something that literally no one has been able to do before? And one of my colleagues was on the plane. That's why I will never forget that day. Never forget that day. And it was amazing what Sully did. Why could Sully do that? Because Sully...
• 24:19
  was the trainer for emergency routines. He had trained this in the simulator multiple times. So he knew the moment two engines go off, for him, he didn't go into panic. The only thing that he said is brace for impact.
• 24:34
  You know, so that's what he said. And then, boom, he landed the damn thing. You know, so, and no problem. No problem. So, but in his mind, he had a mental model. He went into panic. Wow. First one engine goes off, then the other engine goes off. Wow. He's panicked.
• 24:50
  puts an SOS out, then he realizes, I can't reach the next airport, Titorboro. I have to go here, into the Hudson. He looks to the left, turns the plane around, no engine working anymore, lands the damn thing. But to do that, you know, this was trained, rehearsed multiple times. He knew he went from survival zone back into performance zone, calmly landed it.
• 25:16
  That's beautiful. So to go through it for the listeners, performance, survival, burnout, and renewal. I think the performance, survival, burnout, you did a great job explaining it. Let's dig a little deeper in the renewal. And then specifically, if you get into burnout, because in today's marketplace with having to be
• 25:34
  working 24 7 you're battling ai you're battling ransomware you're battling employees it's just it's it's a lot going on a lot of people that are listening are in a burnout phase how do they get from burnout back to renewal they have to if they are in the burnout phase burnout phase as i described does not stay for long if the physical the the body literally pushes out adrenaline
• 26:01
  Adrenaline makes you superhuman, but you burn it through. You get sick. And literally, you physically burn out. Right? So this is almost inescapable. You have to find a way to go back either to performance zone or to renewal zone. Right? Conceptually, that's important to know. It's also not bad to be...
• 26:23
  kind of regularly going into survival zone because it pushes the boundaries. You learn more, you know, so that's fine. That's fine. But at the same time, the moment you are there, you have to find a way to quickly go back, right? That's really important. Then the question comes, are there routines, for instance, you know? Routines is something that could help you to go quickly back. And there are
• 26:47
  I mean, the tennis players have this thing, 20 seconds is allowed by the tennis association between the serve. So every top tennis player has a personal routine, how they recharge between the serves. And you can see this is trained. They take the balls in some odd way. And the moment they do that, I mean, they are not on the court mentally anymore.
• 27:08
  They are somewhere in their mind and they play a video back with some loud music that shows them how the best time in their life when they were on the court, the surf was going well and they were great. And the energy goes back 20 seconds. And then the next surf, even if it's the last point that they can make, if they are really great, they've completely blocked out the rest and they are a different person.
• 27:33
  every serve. And that's the same thing, by the way, that all of the high performance teams do. So that's important. It's also important to say, I mean, if you want to recharge, you know, as I said, recharge, I mean, is productive time, you know, recharge time or downtime is productive time. And don't think of it like, oh, you know, I'm wasting time, but it doesn't have to be long. I mean, one of my mentees who works in Hong Kong,
• 28:00
  has a fantastic recharge routine. You know, he basically takes his phone, gives it to his assistant. He's on the 80s floor, you know, and says, I'm just going down. He takes the elevator down, takes a walk around the block, you know, in Hong Kong. There's always something going on. A great, great town, you know, goes back up, you know, during that time, it's probably 10, 50 minutes max and he's like,
• 28:22
  You know, he says, I completely reset. I completely reset. And if in those 10, 15 minutes something happens, you know, look, I mean, normally the world doesn't go down in 15 minutes, right? So, so great routine. There are other people who say, you know, I close my door. I do a breathing exercise. You know, the special forces, all of the special forces use box breathing four times, you know, breathing in on the count of four, holding count of four, breathe out count of four, holding count of four.
• 28:52
  amazing amazing all use it oh there's not one single one so that's something you can do then there are some other breathing techniques that you can really easy you don't need anything for it right so those are things that i would highly highly highly recommend and when you're on burnout when you are in burnout and it's really difficult you know
• 29:14
  It's so good. And right about right now, I'm in this, personally, I'm in this kind of in-between phase where my IT company and cybersecurity firm is growing with AI, the brand is growing, the podcast is growing, and I've been working hard for six and a half years. And I'm like, when am I gonna see some results? And I believe in invisible results. And all the things that you're saying, I do. I take it a step further, this phone,
• 29:41
  This like is, we have got to figure out a separation from these phones. I took a phone vacation clause for 11 days last year. Now I put it in for seven days every year between Christmas and New Year's. I turn my phone off and put it in a drawer for seven days. It was weird doing it, but I highly recommend if any of your fans or anybody's listening to this that's tuning in for you, take a phone vacation.
• 30:08
  Even if it's an hour, even if it's a day, but I'd recommend multiple days during the year. I think some people, I mean, for me, taking, funny enough, I mean, for me, and that's partially because I grew up at times when it wasn't around. And when I had vacations and already had big roles, you know, I had to receive large stacks of letters, you know, or faxes.
• 30:36
  Oh, it's a nightmare, to be honest. So for me, it was partially a liberation, you know, to have these things. But I learned in this relatively early that you cannot get dependent and you have to manage it. So what I rather do is I rather have a very, very good executive assistant who basically, instead of turning the phone off, I mean, my phone number is not that prevalent with people. And I try to not have it that prevalent with folks, you know.
• 31:05
  But my assistant or my two assistants, they filter it out. They filter it out and they protect me. And they do it in an intelligent way. So I don't feel I'm missing out on an opportunity. Right. And I also have done that even during the course of the day, you know, when people
• 31:25
  I have a great relationship to my children. They are older now. But even when they were younger, I told them I will have dinner tonight with my family. And I told them my phone is basically it's on. But I expect no one to be put through and nobody to call. My direct team obviously had my number. You know, nobody to call me unless...
• 31:47
  Some some issue is there where the life gets threatened, you know, or somebody gets hurt or it risks the existence of the company. If that happens, you can call me anytime, 24 hours, seven days a week, no matter where I am. And you should call me.
• 32:02
  But if that's not the case, you know, then, I mean, in two hours, even if it's 10, 11 o'clock at night, I'll take the call. If it's really important, I'll do it. No problem. No problem. But the time that I'm there, I want to focus on the family conversations. Compartmentalization, by the way, is another big, big trick. You know, this is the mind thing, you know, on basically saying my thoughts. Because many people I've seen, in spite of whether they have the phone there or not,
• 32:30
  I mean, the monkeys in the head still go on, you know, and they are physically there and through the head goes, oh, you know, all this stuff. And my recommendation, and that's normal. We all have that, you know, but my recommendation is establish like a controller in your head, you know, who says this is my executive assistant who's in the head.
• 32:51
  That person sorts out, you know, which voice gets through. And you say, oh, this voice, oh, sorry, it's not the time. Go back into that door, which is office, called office. You know, and there's another thought, which is about a private matter, about my daughter, you know, you're welcome. Well, you're welcome. I'd love that, you know. And then later on, I opened the door, you know, on my compartment called office. I say, oh, now all of the thoughts are welcome. Please come to me. And we're going to talk about how we're going to grow the company again, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know.
• 33:21
  But that's also, again, a little bit of a training. But this aspect of combat, most of the top leaders are extremely good with compartmentalization to an extreme that when you look at a guy like Steve Jobs, you know, I mean, his way of compartmentalization was described with having his own worldview and going to an extreme, which probably was partially unhealthy.
• 33:46
  They finally found a place where we disagree, but not that it's disagree, it's just I have a different way of it. I have it set up in my company where that at night, so I have dinner with my daughter every night and I have breakfast with my daughter every morning. Excellent. Those are just non-negotiable. And I will not take a call, I won't even look at my phone during that time.
• 34:07
  So at night though, we've got several layers if there's an issue. Cause you know, we're 24 by seven company. There's several layers that if it gets to me, something really bad happened, but people know that I wake up at four o'clock in the morning and I go to sleep at nine o'clock at night. You're not waking me up. It's good luck. So I, the part of the recharge for me is I must sleep seven hours. Yeah.
• 34:33
  And I do, and I take care of my body. But that's not different. That's not different. I'm all only, I have rarely, I don't even remember a time. Well, I do remember one time when somebody called me at night and that was absolutely warranted.
• 34:48
  one of our large smelters was burning over Christmas. And that was absolutely warranted. It was not here in the U.S., you know. And we had to take massive action, which we did. And, I mean, this was a problem, you know. And it was a problem that warranted, you know, to call. But, I mean, I think people normally have the respect when you – I mean, they won't call you just for, I mean, wake you up or something, you know, for some little shit, you know.
• 35:18
  What have you thought about, like I say this a lot, thoughts are magical lies. Like your brain will try everything to spin and spiral. As an entrepreneur, as a CEO, as a high achiever, it's always on. And most of it is junk. Would you tell...
• 35:36
  someone you were mentoring about that, like how do you filter? You talked about compartmentalizing, but do you filter that? How do you do that? Or is your experience different? First of all, it's very normal. You know, very normal. That's just the way humans are. That's the monkey mind that's normal. The real problem comes not because of the monkey mind. The real problem is if you give certain voices credibility and you allow them a thought,
• 36:05
  If you just let them pass through, say, oh, another one of those, you know. So let them pass through. Then it goes through. Okay. Fantastic. Bye. Thank you very much. You know, in a way you have to establish this controller in your, in your hand that sorts them out and tries to pick out which ones are you engaging with? Which ones are the one that you feel worthwhile engaging with? Which ones do you park somewhere and say, or probably write them down? You know, I have a good habit of very often writing stuff down.
• 36:31
  The moment I write it down, it's somehow this thought doesn't come back because sometimes it only comes back because it's not memorialized somewhere. So that's a good one. But the very fact that there is always something going on in your mind is absolutely normal. The only time that that's gone is when you're dead. That's so true. Klaus, what daily habits help you maintain peak energy?
• 36:55
  You heard mine. What are yours? Yeah, a lot. I mean, on the physical side, I mean, much like you, I work out in the morning. And if I don't, wherever I am, my office knows that they have to allow me to have some time that I can work out. Otherwise, I won't be a happy person. And so I always work out in the morning, get up early, work out in the morning.
• 37:17
  And that's one thing. The other thing is ideally, I mean, I try to stay hydrated and eat decently, not drink that much. You know, so sleep has come into my life. I always was telling myself I don't need that much sleep.
• 37:35
  But I have to say, over the last two years, I've been working with this. And I have to admit, I probably underestimated the power of sleep, you know. So I do that. I mean, I have some routines like breathing. I use breathing a lot, you know, just as short routines to recharge. And I have some what I call power moves, so to say, where I remember music for me is a big trigger. I'm a big music fan, very eclectic, love all kinds of music.
• 38:04
  music is a big way to recharge you know even a little piece of music listening to it when i'm in the car somewhere you know and recharging so that's great i mean um so those those are my
• 38:15
  typical ones then on a daily basis. And over a period of time, I block time. One of the biggest, best advice I ever got was an advice from a friend when I rose up to my first CEO position. He said, Klaus, you now have to block time on your calendar for your vacations in the beginning of the year. I said, why? You know, I said, if you don't block it now, it will be gone. And he was so right. You know, you block some time, even though you nibble it off.
• 38:43
  But if you haven't blocked it, it will go away. And then when you look at it, you say, oh, there's not even one full week that I can take off because I've made all of these commitments. I just literally booked Memorial Day off for next year because my girlfriend said, I'm taking you on a vacation. I said, uh...
• 39:02
  The next availability I have is next year. And she says, well, then book off Memorial Day. It's like, that's how it gets away from you. You said something about drinking. And that was, I was going to ask you this, but you brought it up. Do you drink alcohol? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm very mad with signs on this.
• 39:25
  My whole life changed when I just, I eliminated it because it just was always around. And I just one day said, I want to try. I didn't hit rock bottom. I didn't do anything wrong. I just said, I'm going to try life without alcohol. And I loved it. And my life just went. So I ask a lot of high performers what their relationship with alcohol is. And you'd be the first person that says, yes, you love it. So I'm interested because I like hearing.
• 39:51
  I like hearing different perspectives. I love it, but it's very clear that the science, particularly as of the last three years, it's very clear that there's no excuse. It's bad for you. It's a neurotoxin. So you have to know this. So at the same time, there are certain things that...
• 40:12
  uh exist in culture when you are with friends you know just have a nice last night i like a good whiskey or a good red wine you know so when you are with friends and you want to create a social atmosphere where everybody feels well this is completely fine in my view this is part of what we are what we would define as this is how humans are
• 40:33
  but you have to be clear. It reduces your performance capabilities. And that's 100% for sure. 100% for sure. And it's just a neurotoxin, period. I found that, so the reason why, the sleeping. Like I was not sleeping well and I wasn't a deep, recharged, renewable sleep. And now I sleep like a baby and I wake up and I'm raring to go.
• 41:03
  But sleep gets in. I agree with that completely. Actually, you can measure it. You know, I have three sleep measurement devices and all of them. And no matter how you measure it, you can see it in the data, you know. So it has no argument, you know. The other thing is also what impacts sleep for me also is if I eat too much too late.
• 41:22
  right so that that's another thing i mean and i mean i recently was over in spain and i don't know how they do it in spain you know they i mean we we had a reservation at seven and they were looking at us when we went into the restaurant like what are you doing are you coming for breakfast you know so so so because the normal normal normal person would not start eating before nine right so uh but i have adopted i mean i like this in the us that people eat eat dinner early and
• 41:52
  Because if you want the body to really relax, so if the body has to do hard work in terms of digestion, that all takes away from the relaxation. Oh, yeah. My nighttime routine is almost as...
• 42:05
  as crazy or as intense as my morning routine. I don't have screens on, I don't look at my phone, I try to read, everything's pitch black, I don't drink anything, I don't eat anything. It's that. Light is, I mean, in my very early life, I was in the pharmaceutical industry and they gave me central nervous system drugs to oversee. And there I met some sleep experts and they introduced me to
• 42:34
  the impact of light on your body. And since then, I've been sleeping with a sleep mask. And there's two ways, by the way, which the other side very often is not known. So, the blacking out, extremely important. Extremely important and the routine like the one you described, also very important. I call it cocooning.
• 42:55
  so that you have your own thing, you know, and I have when I'm on the plane, I have my earplugs, you know, and my mask, and typically I have a hoodie on, you know, so that I pull over me and then I fall asleep, you know. That's great. The other side is I have a small device. I have it somewhere here, you know, which is blue light, a box, blue light box. And you can, if you use the blue light box, it keeps you awake massively. Yeah.
• 43:21
  I mean, people always say, don't sit in front of your screen because you get too much blue light. That's true. And you can, if you need to stay awake, the blue light actually keeps you awake for really long and alert. Because it all goes down, again, to what the light does to your hormonal system. The light sensor in the retina is connected to your hormonal system.
• 43:48
  You know, and if you trick it that it thinks with blue light, that is the middle of the day, because that's when the blue light has the highest in the spectrum. The sun is most up. And that was when the wild animals were all coming after us. So we needed evolutionally, we needed to be very, very, very awake. And it's still in us. It's still in us.
• 44:09
  Listeners, Art and Live Nation, blue light is in your phone. So do not look at your phone for an hour before you're going to sleep, guys. I know how often someone texts you, got to see it. That's why I turn it on silent. Many people tell you to put it in the other room. I keep mine in for my daughter, but either way.
• 44:26
  We're coming up against it. I got still so many more questions. We haven't gotten any AI. I want to talk a little bit about Siemens because I used to compete with them all the time. I should sell it. What leadership trend concerns you most today? Honestly, I don't have much of a leadership trend that concerns me. I think I've seen rather...
• 44:46
  that people are open to change. I think the young generation realizes that they are hitting a wall if they are not finding a different way to reframe it. That was one of the reasons why I wrote the book with two chapters, one with the inner game and one with the outer game, as I call it. I mean, the outer game part is a lot about normal business things. How do you lead? How do you build high-performance teams? And
• 45:07
  those type of things. How do you basically energize a whole group of people? But I wanted them to have a framework on also how do you deal with yourself, and that's not just important in business but important in life. I think that there's more in openness. I really do. But I think there's also equally more in need because they push. They are very hardworking. There's a lot of them in the generation that's very hardworking and sometimes pushes themselves too hard and thinks that that's the only way. That's the only way.
• 45:37
  So if you want, if that might be one of the things that I'm concerned about, but there is an answer to it. I think that we don't have to be so binary. I think that two things can be true. I think you can work less and still be efficient. I think you can have work from home, still have work.
• 45:57
  In I just it's not the sum of all all and what works for you may not work for me. And it's one size doesn't fit all. And I love the inner game versus outer game, because really what I see is you're playing a game on. What do you hear everybody say? Work life balance. To me, it's it's it's equanimity of peaceful mind, peaceful heart. And.
• 46:19
  And the peace, I say to people, money won't make you happy, but happiness will make you money. So it's all here, man. It's not a balance game. Sometimes you're going to be out of balance, but if you have the tools.
• 46:31
  and the habits and rituals, you can get through anything. I fully agree. And I think that you have to understand that this work-life thing, that we always think that those are two things. In the end, you're one person. So in you is in you. And I have in my book the study on what do people say on their last breath that,
• 46:53
  And I think that that's a strong wake-up call. And nobody says, I wish I had spent more time in the office. But what they do say, they do say, I wish I had allowed myself to be happier, allowed myself to be happier. Finally, on their deathbed, they realize that happiness is a choice.
• 47:12
  which it is, we're back to emotions, you know. Or they say, I wish I had allowed myself to be listening more to me, not to others, right? And those are things, I mean, fortunately, hopefully this is not our last breath and we have many more to go. So let's make sure that you take your life into your hands and see it as an integrated one. And the good news also is for recharging, you very often don't need that much time
• 47:39
  Right. So so a good recharge routine can give you a lot of additional energy to get through many other challenges. So you say in the book, life is not a dress rehearsal. Why is that such an important reminder for leaders? Interestingly, it's not just for leaders, for humans. Interestingly, even though we know that life has a beginning and an end,
• 48:03
  But in reality, most people don't live by that. They live by, oh, we can't do it today. Let's do it tomorrow or maybe next week, maybe next month. You know, I push it out. And I think that is the big conundrum of mankind and probably has always been. And I don't know whether it always will be.
• 48:24
  But we have a choice as long as we realize this is not the reality. The reality is beginning, end, you know. So make the best out of it and make it as a human. And I don't see work and life as two things. I mean, I live by this principle. I love it. I change it or I leave it.
• 48:42
  on the on the on not only the business side in general you know but also on the business side so i would not work in an environment even when i didn't have money i would not work in an environment that i would not love i i would then decide okay can i change it try it out if i can't change it i do something else beautiful this is so good i say a lot of things like momento mori we're all gonna die and we have to realize this is not infinite this is finite so do things you love be kind
• 49:09
  live every day. What's the one thing you wish you knew before coming a global CEO? Oh, yeah. The one thing I wish I knew was that I will not have one boss, but I will have a board as a boss. And that is so, so different. When we grow up, you know, through the ranks, you typically have one boss. You get to know the person. You know which buttons to push, which buttons to avoid.
• 49:37
  and how to somehow manage the relationship. The moment you rise to the very top, you don't have one individual as the boss. You suddenly have a multitude of people, a board or multiple people who influence the decision-making, you know.
• 49:52
  then you are suddenly prone to group dynamics. And group dynamics are very different. I mean, I would go as far to say, in my experience on my own boards, as well as boards that I've been on, boards have only two stable states. They either love the CEO or,
• 50:08
  or they want the person to go ideally yesterday. And those table states can switch very quickly, very quickly. So you have to find a way how to really understand what are the dynamics on the board, and you have to make it a process. And if you are naive to believe that performance justifies everything, you better calibrate yourself again. That is not the case, absolutely not the case.
• 50:36
  Oh, so you get to the absolute top and realize you got more bosses. That's great. I've spent many years wasting my life away, and I'm going to be 50 this year. And so I do a lot. Hulk Hogan died this week or last week, and I start thinking about, like, he died at 71. I'm 50. It's 21 years. Am I going to make the next 21 years? But this is the question I ask is, what happens when you die?
• 51:02
  And what happens when you die is absolutely nothing. Life goes on for everybody else. So why not live every day? People sit here and say, we only live once. No, no, no, no. You only die once. You live every day.
• 51:18
  So enjoy it. And we might as well enjoy it while we're here. Very true. By the way, this is another exercise, a dark one, but good one, you know, to basically go through this. Many people go through it not voluntarily. They go through it because they got diagnosed with a terminal disease.
• 51:36
  And that forces them to realize the end is near and to reset. But you can also, I mean, we are intelligent beings. An old, long-time teacher of mine used to torture us with the question of what distinguishes humans from all other beings on this planet, gentlemen? You want to know what that is? What is it? The ability to do this.
• 52:04
  Did you know that? It is. Literally. Monkeys cannot do this. See, well, he didn't come up with that. His answer that he wanted us to say was anticipation. You know, humans can anticipate the future. You know, so you better anticipate what's going to happen if you haven't done your homework.
• 52:24
  So that was his thing, you know, and then something bad unfolded. So, but he has a very good point. We can anticipate. We can do this game and say, let me play as though I will be dead now. And I'll then walk around and say...
• 52:40
  How has the world changed? You just died and you go around and nobody effing notices. Or you see, I mean, the death of some good friend and then you struggle, you know, to change your life, to be at the funeral, you know. But already then you've moved on. You've moved on. You made my point for me. Just same exact thing.
• 52:59
  All this time, we've had such a good conversation. Thank you for being open and vulnerable. We didn't even talk about this K2 Elevation. Can you tell me what, tell the listeners what that is, and then we're going to finish with AI and final thoughts. Sure. Well, K2 Elevation is just the company that I founded as a frame, as an investment firm. So to basically run all my investments through it, or most of my investments through it, and yeah, so have it as a structure.
• 53:29
  So I thought the name K2 meant something about. Well, the K2 comes from, my name is Klaus Kleinfeld. So, so some people had as a nickname had me, Hey, K2 is coming. Right. So, or KK is coming, you know? So in our family company, I mean, everybody refers to me as KK, you know? So, so that's where K2 comes from, you know? And, and I know that there were some search firms that use K2 as acronym, you know, where
• 53:59
  You said you got to be able to anticipate. And obviously it's one of the highest mountains. Yeah, that's where I was going. That's why there's two things. And elevation is a great thing, the K2 elevation. But at the start, it was this word game. Klaus Leinfeld, two Ks, K2, blah, blah, blah. And then K2, the large mountain and elevation. That's how it all came about.
• 54:20
  I love it. The final question, and then we'll get your final thoughts. You said we have to be, as humans, we need to be able to anticipate. So what do you anticipate AI to do to the business landscape in the next one to three years?
• 54:35
  Well, I mean, if you look at ChatGPT adoption rate, it is the highest adoption, I think, that we've seen with pretty much any technology that has been launched. And that gives you an idea of how powerful it is. I would recommend, no matter what business you run,
• 54:53
  You better get your teeth into how you can apply AI in your business. I am convinced that those firms who figure it out first and get this in will be the ones who will be most successful. So get your teeth into it and apply it. And it does not mean that you have to have the all-encompassing. Some people are trying to sell the all-encompassing in a BS experience.
• 55:17
  You know, go for wherever you can find an application, do it piece by piece, try it out, throw it away. You know, not everything works, you know, but try it out, go for it. And the technology accelerates in a pace that we have rarely seen. And it's not linear. Like with all innovations, innovations are step functions. This is a step function. This is a moving step function. So if you don't catch on to the wave,
• 55:46
  you will be going under, you know, so and that's my recommendation to anybody in any business. And it gets accelerated by the advances on the robotics side, particularly the advances on the humanoid robotics, where in the past, I mean, I've been in automation a big part of my life.
• 56:08
  but a lot of the things that could not be that easily done. All right, but this changes with humanoid robotics coming onto the scene now. Yeah, we're working on it, National Technology Management, my IT cybersecurity firm, we're rapidly becoming an AI firm, where we're going to deliver workflows that people have never even thought of. We're gonna make AI easy because we're seeing people struggle with it.
• 56:35
  you know, if you're using it to just do your job, that's not good. It's replacing your job. So let me show you how to 10x your job. And that's what we're doing for people. So it's exciting. I've never been more excited in my life. I think that you're right. And I think one important thing with AI is, I mean, you, the AI still hallucinates. So you have to, I see this again and again, you
• 56:58
  So you have to have some understanding about the field that you are in to catch that, because it could otherwise get you into some trouble. So that's why you have to elevate the skills. And it's also a lot in the way, like with humans, the way you ask questions. So if you do the prompt in the right way,
• 57:24
  you know, then the outcome is really amazing. Sometimes I've seen people say, oh, it didn't work out. And then I say, show me what you did. You say, well, that's a question that leads to nowhere, you know, leads to nowhere. So it's in the question, like in life. I think always it's a lot about the questions you ask, you know, and then you will receive the answers.
• 57:45
  That is so true. That is so true. Like this has been a masterclass. Thank you for sharing. I've learned so much and I know the listeners have. Let's end up with some final thoughts because you have so much to share. What are some final thoughts for the listeners?
• 58:01
  Well, take some time to concentrate on the purpose side of things, you know, because in the end, that's the biggest driver in your life and the biggest motivator on the last day. You want to you want to be prepared, you know, to say I've led a fulfilled life and I've done I've led a good life, you know, so concentrate on that.
• 58:21
  the good life is in you i mean nobody can tell you it has to be you right and to find out who you are and to sort out what voices in your head do you have that you consider yours and what are voices that somebody else put into you and that unfortunately you are following because it was your mother father sister you know a daughter or a teacher you know
• 58:43
  Make sure it doesn't matter where it came from, but make sure you sort them out and say, this is me. This is me, you know, and at the same time, also, I mean, go for it, you know, go for it. You have the right to be an individual in the truest sense, you know, and you don't have to conform with everything as long as you are fine with it. And it feels like you're living the life that you want to live.
• 59:08
  So good. I'm going to follow that up, but I usually don't because it's so good. But I would say love everyone and yourself.
• 59:17
  Yeah, love is the most powerful, we didn't talk about that, but it's the most powerful emotion. And funny enough, I have a chapter in the book about it because I think it's really, really important in two ways. I mean, it can be very destructive also, but it is important. And it also comes down to the aspect we discussed before on respect. You want to treat an individual with respect, no matter what, no matter what.
• 59:42
  And yourself. Yeah, you are 100% right. You're right. A lot of people have negative self-talk. Get that damn thing out. You are worthy. That's why you're here on this planet. And there's something brilliant in you. Just let it shine.
• 59:59
  With that, we're going to say, go out and buy his book, Leading to Thrive. So good. Thank you for being on. Until next week, be harder than life. Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with. Delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit TrustNTM.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.
• 1:00:29
  Thank you.