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How trails enhance our quality of life and boost the economy · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:12
  Jeff Cranson: It's Earth Week, or at least we're just a few days off Earth Day 2024, and I thought it might be a good time to focus on some of the things that transportation involves that help us get outside, get into the woods or on the trails.
• 0:33
  Jeff Cranson: And who better to do that than Julie Clark, who is the chief executive officer at the Traverse Area Recreational Transportation Trails, known as TART, and she's been there for about 14 years and accomplished some wonderful things.
• 0:50
  Jeff Cranson: There are several great trail organizations across the state that are, you know, raising money and working with local and state government and sometimes the federal government to achieve their dreams and make the outdoors more accessible to everybody.
• 1:08
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation with Julie.
• 1:11
  Jeff Cranson: So, once again, Julie, as I mentioned in the intro, is the Traverse Area Recreation and Transportation CEO.
• 1:18
  Jeff Cranson: That stands for TART Trails is what we call it.
• 1:21
  Jeff Cranson: Let's talk a little first about you and your career trajectory and how you landed in Traverse City and in this position.
• 1:32
  Julie Clark: Yeah, I think I landed in Traverse City like most people do.
• 1:35
  Julie Clark: It lured me.
• 1:37
  Julie Clark: I had been in Charlotte, north Carolina, with husband and family.
• 1:42
  Julie Clark: We'd been looking all over the United States for a place to land Charlotte.
• 1:48
  Julie Clark: We loved it, but there were things that we, you know, didn't fit a growing family for us and so during that year plus long search of looking everywhere, we decided we wanted a place first, before a job, and so we started looking at places and then the job for the executive director at the time came up.
• 2:11
  Julie Clark: I had worked with a firm, corbin Design, and Mark Vanderclip, out of Traverse City on signage for the trails program that I ran in Mecklenburg County.
• 2:21
  Julie Clark: So that's Charlotte and I'd heard all about Traverse City.
• 2:26
  Julie Clark: It always looked really pretty, though I did laugh because Mark would share like I went skiing in May and that sounded weird.
• 2:35
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so North Carolina to Northern Michigan is a different definition of climate change, isn't it?
• 2:40
  Julie Clark: Right, and I did it.
• 2:41
  Julie Clark: We did it all backwards, right.
• 2:42
  Julie Clark: I came from Indiana, went to Florida, went to North Carolina and wound up in Michigan Like I'm doing it all wrong, apparently, because this is where we want to grow old and this is where we want to retire.
• 2:54
  Julie Clark: So, yeah, so I found a job that actually, through again knowing it through Mark, saw that there was a position opening.
• 3:04
  Julie Clark: Actually, through again knowing it through Mark, saw that there was a position opening.
• 3:07
  Julie Clark: This was back in 2010.
• 3:13
  Julie Clark: So Charlotte had just hit the cliff financial cliff so it was a good time to think about moving.
• 3:15
  Julie Clark: The kids were little and, like I said, we went place first.
• 3:18
  Julie Clark: So I remember doing like a lot of climate research on we have in florida, north carolina.
• 3:25
  Julie Clark: We knew drought, we knew it well.
• 3:27
  Julie Clark: We knew fire, well, um, and we didn't want that.
• 3:30
  Julie Clark: And so we, we looked at that.
• 3:32
  Julie Clark: I admit we also looked at breweries per like capita and that was pretty exciting and the water.
• 3:39
  Julie Clark: The water and the clean air, uh, were super important to us.
• 3:42
  Julie Clark: And so, um, when I got the opportunity to interview and came up the minute, we flew in, you know, and we saw what we saw those woods and those waters my husband leaned over and said don't screw this up, that's how we knew.
• 3:58
  Jeff Cranson: Well, I guess, yeah, if you lived in a city built on banking, that was a good time to get out for sure.
• 4:02
  Jeff Cranson: Turns out yeah Well.
• 4:05
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about I mean I've come to know you and your position as, I mean, truly tireless.
• 4:11
  Jeff Cranson: I know it's a cliche, but you really are.
• 4:13
  Jeff Cranson: What feeds your energy and your passions for the trail work?
• 4:18
  Julie Clark: Oh gosh, the people, whether it's working with partners, my team, the community right.
• 4:26
  Julie Clark: What I love about TART and all the jobs I've had professionally it's always been a public service job and so what TART does is listen to community members, community leaders, to try and help them accomplish their goals.
• 4:43
  Julie Clark: It feels really good Some days.
• 4:46
  Julie Clark: Maybe I wish I didn't have to think or feel so much because you know you go to bed thinking about it.
• 4:55
  Julie Clark: I can't go anywhere without like measuring a trail or looking at a radius or whatever.
• 5:00
  Julie Clark: But I really love the service part of it and trying to help community meet their goals.
• 5:06
  Julie Clark: And then I'll admit some days, rage man, that's what gets me up because I want a better world.
• 5:11
  Julie Clark: So yeah, I get up because I'm feisty and fired up.
• 5:18
  Jeff Cranson: So this doesn't seem too parochial because I'm focusing on one particular trail organization, because I'm focusing on one particular trail organization in one part of the state, talk about how what you do ties into a much broader plan and network across the state.
• 5:33
  Jeff Cranson: And you know what Fred Meyer endowed with the Meyer Foundation and the various trails.
• 5:35
  Jeff Cranson: I mean things are going on everywhere and you guys are focused on mostly Grand Traverse and Leelanau counties.
• 5:43
  Jeff Cranson: Or do you go beyond that a little bit?
• 5:45
  Julie Clark: We're now headed into Antrim with the Nequema Trailway.
• 5:49
  Julie Clark: So yeah, Antrim, Grand Traverse and Leelanau exactly.
• 5:52
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so what's your bigger vision?
• 5:55
  Julie Clark: Well, that was part of the appeal of Michigan too is that Michigan really understood its outdoors and natural resources in ways that some of the other states we came from didn't.
• 6:06
  Julie Clark: This is it's part of Michigan's appeal and heritage and what I think communities are most passionate about right our water, our woods and our access to them.
• 6:16
  Julie Clark: The Trust Fund is a great example of putting that into practice.
• 6:21
  Jeff Cranson: That's the Department of Natural Resources, trust Fund.
• 6:24
  Julie Clark: Yeah, Michigan DNR, although I always like to point out who funds more trails.
• 6:27
  Julie Clark: That's the DOT.
• 6:28
  Jeff Cranson: T hank you.
• 6:31
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you for that well, yeah.
• 6:35
  Julie Clark: So for me landing in northern Michigan, you might think, right, we're remote, we do our own thing in our own pocket of the world.
• 6:42
  Julie Clark: So, not true?
• 6:44
  Julie Clark: The plans that the state has and the rail trails that the Michigan DNR, you know, has built.
• 6:49
  Julie Clark: There's always been an interest to make these bigger connections.
• 6:54
  Julie Clark: Probably comes from that.
• 6:56
  Julie Clark: I don't know from our cultural history of making those kind of larger connections whether you're going way back to the, you know, indigenous folks that were here to now.
• 7:07
  Julie Clark: It's always been about those connections.
• 7:10
  Julie Clark: And so I found an incredibly passionate group of folks all around the state and funders, whether that's DOT, dnr on the private side.
• 7:21
  Julie Clark: That's new.
• 7:22
  Julie Clark: The private investment in the trail network throughout the state has just been phenomenal, very different from where I came from in Florida and North Carolina
• 7:33
  Jeff Cranson: Why do you think that is?
• 7:34
  Jeff Cranson: I mean in part because of where you are now.
• 7:37
  Jeff Cranson: You've got, you're in a place with a lot of retirees, obviously, and they become benefactors for this kind of thing.
• 7:44
  Jeff Cranson: But it's more than that, right.
• 7:45
  Julie Clark: Oh my gosh.
• 7:45
  Julie Clark: I mean Detroit.
• 7:46
  Julie Clark: We did something right the Riverfront Conservancy.
• 7:49
  Julie Clark: I think what got me exposed to all this I'm going to thank Governor Snyder for that was and the DNR director at the time, rodney Stokes.
• 7:59
  Julie Clark: I was put on the blue ribbon panel for parks, so that was back in 2010.
• 8:05
  Julie Clark: And just being exposed to all the different work that's being done around the state and the Detroit Riverfront Conservancy and their work building the trail down there, for example, that was the first time I understood how important private dollars were in the not only the building but the maintenance of our trail network.
• 8:28
  Julie Clark: What they did in Detroit they did with private dollars.
• 8:32
  Julie Clark: That was exactly equivalent to what I had just left doing along the Little Sugar Creek Greenway in North Carolina, and that was all public dollars, a complete inverse.
• 8:43
  Jeff Cranson: That's really interesting.
• 8:45
  Julie Clark: Totally, and for me it was a mind bender because I'm like wait, what the private side is doing, like all this work and what I think.
• 8:54
  Julie Clark: I think the thing that maybe is different for us in Michigan is the the private side has always been super engaged.
• 9:04
  Julie Clark: I don't know if it's that kind of bootstrap type feeling we like to have.
• 9:08
  Julie Clark: I always thought it was just northern Michigan and that, you know, get government out of the way, but I don't think that's it.
• 9:13
  Julie Clark: I think the private side has that ability to react more quickly, to be more nimble and to work really collaboratively with state and local governments.
• 9:25
  Julie Clark: Maybe it's the township feeling right Of, like there's so much local government.
• 9:30
  Jeff Cranson: You got to figure out how to work with it.
• 9:32
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, 1,250 townships.
• 9:36
  Julie Clark: Yeah, but there's been just such and like Michigan as the trail state it.
• 9:43
  Julie Clark: Maybe it made it a tagline back in 2014 or whenever that was 2020.
• 9:49
  Julie Clark: I don't remember anymore when Governor Snyder kind of put out that vision of Michigan as the trail state, dnr, dot.
• 9:56
  Julie Clark: I feel like they've always been doing that and it was really nice to see it elevated to that level.
• 10:01
  Jeff Cranson: So that riverfront you talk about in Detroit.
• 10:04
  Jeff Cranson: I used to be down there when there was very little going on, very little activity, and I always thought, man, this river is beautiful and I remember when we had a dedication for MDOT's role in that, you know, with the splash pad and some of the other features that go along with it being an event there and I remarked to somebody that I was standing next to you know, I know it's a cliche, but the same thing that made Detroit what it is in the first place can make Detroit what it is again, and that's the river.
• 10:33
  Jeff Cranson: And an elderly woman sitting there by said I don't think that's cliche at all.
• 10:37
  Jeff Cranson: So that's what's going on.
• 10:39
  Jeff Cranson: And now, with the Gordie Howe International Bridge, you're going to have a connection to crossing to Canada and you could ride trails all the way to Niagara.
• 10:47
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, that's incredible.
• 10:48
  Julie Clark: Yeah, oh, yeah, oh.
• 10:50
  Julie Clark: I can't wait.
• 10:50
  Julie Clark: Actually I've done the route there over in Quebec and it's amazing, so yeah, so that's really cool.
• 10:57
  Jeff Cranson: Well, talk about, I guess, where was TART when you arrived and where is it now and where's it going?
• 11:06
  Julie Clark: TART when you arrived and where is it now and where's it going?
• 11:08
  Julie Clark: Yeah, so what I love about TART is we've always been.
• 11:14
  Julie Clark: We've been around for a long time, right, we started in 2008, 2009.
• 11:19
  Julie Clark: No, sorry 2000.
• 11:21
  Julie Clark: We're 30 years or 25 years old?
• 11:23
  Julie Clark: So bad math there, sorry, 2000.
• 11:26
  Julie Clark: We're 30 years or 25 years old?
• 11:28
  Julie Clark: So bad math there.
• 11:33
  Julie Clark: We were four different trail groups that came together and this is, I think, a really important reminder for me now today.
• 11:37
  Julie Clark: So we started off as four separate trail groups, each doing their own thing, each starting for different reasons, but all having that vision of trails as both transportation, recreation and economic development opportunities.
• 11:49
  Julie Clark: All of them were of that mindset, which is pretty great.
• 11:52
  Julie Clark: We were encouraged to get our act together and join together and be stronger as one, and that's what we did.
• 12:01
  Julie Clark: So those were our first 10 years and Bob Outwell really led that.
• 12:06
  Julie Clark: So when I came on board, bob Outwell had been here.
• 12:09
  Julie Clark: He said Trevor City had lived in.
• 12:11
  Julie Clark: Trevor City was an engineer and he was really focused on trying to move things forward and really had a great bike and ped perspective.
• 12:21
  Julie Clark: Right, that bikes and pedestrians should be leading the way in the type of transportation and infrastructure focus for our urban areas.
• 12:30
  Julie Clark: So I came at that time, 2010, and my directive from the board was get asphalt on the ground, make these trail connections that we've been talking about happen, and so that's what we've done over the past.
• 12:45
  Julie Clark: So I've been here 14 years now.
• 12:47
  Julie Clark: That's weird to say yeah, like I only know that because I see my kids.
• 12:55
  Julie Clark: They're very different now, but we started to make those connections so we've doubled our trail mileage, so we're now a little over 100 miles of trail are on the ground in our region and we've been what I think is reflective of our roots as well, as I think my interest is bringing communities together right.
• 13:21
  Julie Clark: Trails are not brought to you by TART trails.
• 13:24
  Julie Clark: They never have been.
• 13:25
  Julie Clark: Our job has always been to try to get the community members and their voices heard.
• 13:31
  Julie Clark: The leadership you know.
• 13:33
  Julie Clark: Sometimes they're really engaged and really wanting to go at it, and sometimes they're a little reticent because maybe they don't know or they maybe don't agree.
• 13:41
  Julie Clark: So how to get to yes and get things moving has always been part of who we were at TART and who I am, and that's been a lot of fun and to build that team around TART.
• 13:54
  Julie Clark: We were pretty small when I came, we had about five people.
• 13:57
  Julie Clark: We have doubled our staff too, and we've been making some.
• 14:02
  Julie Clark: So we did what we said we were going to do.
• 14:04
  Julie Clark: Right, we closed gaps, we started, we closed those trails we talked about, and then we started building more.
• 14:10
  Julie Clark: And then we started listening to communities who wanted connections, whether that's you know out in Glen Arbor, up in Elk Rapids and Charlevoix, and now we're thinking about Thompsonville and you know Frankfurt.
• 14:22
  Julie Clark: And how do we help make these connections happen?
• 14:26
  Julie Clark: I really am excited because what we know.
• 14:32
  Julie Clark: So where's TART going?
• 14:33
  Julie Clark: Our vision is every house a trailhead, so we want people to be able to leave their home.
• 14:39
  Julie Clark: Get out on the trails doesn't mean there's a trail up to your door, but the facilities, whether you're rural or in a town, should feel very comfortable and you should have that safety, which is where, working with road commissions and DOT, we can be your biggest cheerleaders or your biggest pains in the you know what?
• 15:00
  Jeff Cranson: Well, when you talk about to your door, I remember when the White Pine Trail was being developed, a lot of people, a lot of NIMBYs, very concerned about you know who's going through their backyard and it really isn't literally through their backyard, but they feel like it is, and there's no evidence of that that this has turned in ever to you know a rise in crime or people veering off the trail and doing nefarious things.
• 15:26
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, that's just not a thing, is it?
• 15:28
  Julie Clark: No, the data has not supported that.
• 15:30
  Julie Clark: Sure, you can make some bad design decisions, but the trails themselves, it's opposite right.
• 15:38
  Julie Clark: They increase property values, they help reinvigorate neighborhoods.
• 15:42
  Julie Clark: They do provide that economic development.
• 15:44
  Julie Clark: They also provide, as COVID pointed out, some really important opportunities for physical and mental health, and that I think has become so important to folks all around our region and, I think, around the state.
• 16:00
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's a double-edged sword.
• 16:01
  Jeff Cranson: For those of us that like to ride on those trails, it's like where do all these people come from?
• 16:05
  Julie Clark: Yeah, right, and my answer, Jeff, is always like well, you know, dilution's the solution, so we need more trails and we need to make sure that you can get out and active.
• 16:15
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, mine won't be crowded if there's more opportunities.
• 16:17
  Jeff Cranson: You're right, we will continue the conversation right after a quick break.
• 16:25
  Julie Clark: Know before you go.
• 16:26
  Julie Clark: Head on over to MiDrive to check out the latest on road construction and possible delays along your route.
• 16:31
  Julie Clark: For a detailed map, head over to michigan.
• 16:33
  Julie Clark: gov/ drive.
• 16:41
  Jeff Cranson: A lot of what you do you have people that work on this, but obviously you have a big hand in it too is development.
• 16:48
  Jeff Cranson: Talk about that and how you approach it and approach the relationship building.
• 16:52
  Julie Clark: Well, it's all about relationships, right?
• 16:54
  Julie Clark: Whether you're trying to get something on the ground, trying to get the funding in place.
• 16:58
  Julie Clark: So the way we approach development is very community centric, right.
• 17:06
  Julie Clark: We try to listen and make sure we're hearing what the opportunities are, what the concerns are.
• 17:12
  Julie Clark: Those are both from you know community members, as well as those elected officials and our partners at you know, because the way trails work is it's, it's.
• 17:23
  Julie Clark: They don't magically appear.
• 17:25
  Julie Clark: All the rail lines, they're done Like.
• 17:26
  Julie Clark: The easy trail building days are over, so these are putting you know pieces together.
• 17:32
  Julie Clark: It really is a pretty intricate puzzle.
• 17:34
  Julie Clark: So, working with landowners even if you're not, you know, seeking an easement from a landowner, a lot of the places that we're building are very much you know, within a right of way, and it feels like but wait, that's is that, can you do that?
• 17:50
  Julie Clark: That's my front yard, you know, and that's really important to be listening.
• 17:55
  Julie Clark: So I think one of the things that TART does well and really concentrates on is taking the time to learn and listen.
• 18:03
  Julie Clark: That can be super frustrating because it takes a long time.
• 18:07
  Julie Clark: So development and this idea like okay, let's get 100 miles more on the ground, that's going to take a lot of lift and that's why that community listening part is so critical, because none of this is going to be rushed.
• 18:23
  Julie Clark: It doesn't happen quickly and in fact it's so frustratingly long sometimes that the community can get really irritated or, you know, you can lose momentum.
• 18:35
  Julie Clark: Know, within the first five years.
• 18:50
  Julie Clark: That's unheard of.
• 18:50
  Julie Clark: So things pacing is not necessary.
• 18:51
  Jeff Cranson: You don't have a, you don't have a magic wand to come.
• 18:52
  Jeff Cranson: Well, that goes.
• 18:53
  Jeff Cranson: That goes again to the relationships.
• 18:54
  Jeff Cranson: I mean you're dealing with government agencies at the local level, at the state level, at the federal level, in the department of interior obviously, and you know that the national lakeshore and that's been a great relationship, right.
• 19:07
  Julie Clark: Oh, one of the best.
• 19:08
  Julie Clark: That to me, is like a national example, to watch MDOT and the Park Service and the Road Commission and the private like Friends of Sleeping Bear and TART and the local communities figure this stuff out together.
• 19:21
  Julie Clark: It's phenomenal and the product is phenomenal and the community has embraced it and is super excited about it, and that's why you build things right.
• 19:32
  Julie Clark: You build things so people can use them and love them.
• 19:35
  Julie Clark: They're built for the residents, but we are delighted when the visitors come and use them too.
• 19:40
  Jeff Cranson: Well, so you mentioned the Friends of the Sleeping Bear.
• 19:42
  Jeff Cranson: Is recruiting volunteers?
• 19:45
  Jeff Cranson: A challenge Again.
• 19:46
  Jeff Cranson: I don't think.
• 19:47
  Jeff Cranson: It probably is because of where you are.
• 19:49
  Jeff Cranson: Do you benefit from this being the kind of place that a lot of people that are either semi-retired or retired move and are looking for ways to get involved?
• 19:58
  Julie Clark: Our most valuable resource is our people, right, and the capital that they provide, both in the social, intellectual as well as, of course, monetary, is important.
• 20:09
  Julie Clark: But their brains and their brawn that are out there Volunteers that's been a different change for me from going from like a government position, where I was in Carolina and before, to here where we were built by volunteers.
• 20:25
  Julie Clark: Right, tart started as all volunteers and we're now professionally staffed, but we are utilizing our volunteers tenfold to where we started.
• 20:35
  Julie Clark: Right, we have 400 active volunteers in the TART network that do anything from, you know, kind of stuffing envelopes and writing letters to getting out and actually supporting trail maintenance.
• 20:45
  Julie Clark: So we are very blessed here and that's kind of that public-private.
• 20:51
  Julie Clark: That is pretty cool in Michigan is that private side has always been an important part of the equation.
• 20:59
  Julie Clark: So our volunteers we consider them the lifeblood of TART.
• 21:02
  Julie Clark: We turn to them all the time, whether it's again for ideas, for support in getting events done or getting trails looking great.
• 21:14
  Julie Clark: Because what we know is that these are community trails and the more invested and the more engaged community members are, the better the trails are going to be, because they become theirs.
• 21:27
  Julie Clark: Right, these trails are the communities and the community is clear about that and we love to have our ambassadors out there, our volunteers out there.
• 21:36
  Julie Clark: So it is not hard to recruit.
• 21:39
  Julie Clark: It's actually harder to make sure they're all properly stewarded and engaged, because we want it to be a meaningful experience for volunteers.
• 21:48
  Julie Clark: There's nothing worse than going out and feeling like why am I here?
• 21:51
  Julie Clark: So we want to make sure volunteers are happy and well-fed, if you will.
• 21:58
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so you mentioned that sometimes your motivation is rage and obviously all these things don't happen as easily as you'd like.
• 22:07
  Jeff Cranson: How do you maintain your optimism when faced with challenges that you face sometimes not so much from the bureaucracy of government, but often just citizens who don't really understand or just have a very again nimby approach to things, very parochial interest.
• 22:30
  Julie Clark: How do you maintain that kind of positive approach?
• 22:33
  Julie Clark: Yeah, it's actually pretty easy most days.
• 22:40
  Julie Clark: Because we do so much and we're working on so many projects, it's really easy to find a real quick reminder of how important these trails are to people and the work that people are doing.
• 22:50
  Julie Clark: Right, it's not all you have to do is get outside yourself for a second, get out of your mind, open up your eyes and your ears, and it's really easy.
• 22:59
  Julie Clark: You just, I go for a run in the morning and I watch people run by me and I, you know, get to hear my kids as they, you know, bike out to see their friends.
• 23:08
  Julie Clark: It's so easy to get beyond, for me to get beyond those points of frustration or anger, whether it's, you know, a project problem or a partner problem or a public problem, they're all just.
• 23:23
  Julie Clark: They're just problems meant to be solved.
• 23:25
  Julie Clark: I don't think of myself as, like a math person, but really, there's generally a solution somewhere.
• 23:31
  Jeff Cranson: No, it is.
• 23:31
  Jeff Cranson: I know so many of us have jobs that if somebody asks us what we do, you know and you tell them it sounds like it should take five minutes and it's because you forgot that you put out fires all day long.
• 23:41
  Jeff Cranson: You know you solve problems and I should mention, when you talk about people running by you, you'll find I can tell you as someone who tries to run myself that more and more people run by me.
• 23:55
  Jeff Cranson: Oh yeah, I'm a slogger for sure.
• 23:56
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, your speed drops with the years.
• 23:59
  Julie Clark: That's for sure.
• 24:00
  Julie Clark: But the mileage goes up, that's right.
• 24:02
  Jeff Cranson: That's right.
• 24:02
  Jeff Cranson: That's the important thing.
• 24:03
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, no, thank you so much.
• 24:06
  Jeff Cranson: I really appreciate it.
• 24:06
  Jeff Cranson: I hope we can talk again sometime about some of the projects and some of the cool stuff you're doing and yeah, I think we expect you up here for some ribbon cuttings, because we're doing some good stuff with MDOT.
• 24:16
  Julie Clark: So we appreciate the partnership and we appreciate being able to push.
• 24:20
  Julie Clark: Thank you for letting us celebrate and push.
• 24:24
  Julie Clark: That's what we do.
• 24:24
  Julie Clark: Thank you for letting us celebrate and push.
• 24:25
  Jeff Cranson: That's what we do.
• 24:26
  Jeff Cranson: Well, you've had a lot of support from the previous directors and certainly the current director absolutely gets it.
• 24:33
  Jeff Cranson: He understands the importance of the outdoors to our state.
• 24:35
  Julie Clark: From top to bottom, and we couldn't do it without the local TSCs in there rolling up their sleeves as well, so we're grateful.
• 24:44
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, Thank you, Julie.
• 24:45
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 24:49
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 24:54
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas.
• 25:08
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you.