Latest / Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast / PODCAST: Episode 780 - Tom Osman Interviews Bär McKinnon of Umlaut on Creativity, Weirdness and New Sounds

Transcript

PODCAST: Episode 780 - Tom Osman Interviews Bär McKinnon of Umlaut on Creativity, Weirdness and New Sounds · Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast

• 0:00
  It's just a lot of organizing and scheduling and it's, it's
• 0:02
  just, it's really time consuming.
• 0:03
  And then you've got the personalities and the, and then
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  it's like D can you interact with other people well enough
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  to, to, to make, to make them play your music for, for little
• 0:13
  or no, you know, mostly, most of the time it's been no money, you
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  know, and it's just like, what is their motivation?
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  What is their incentive? And you're just like, can you be
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  that charming person or is the music good enough or whatever?
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  But it's but ultimately to to have a band is is is, it's a lot
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  of work. Hi, this is Tom for Ghost Cult
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  and I'm delighted to be joined by Bear McKinnon, formerly of
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  Mr. Bungle and of I was going to say now of Umlaut, but actually
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  you've had Umlaut for I would say longer than you were in Mr.
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  Bungle. Is that, is that right to say?
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  I guess that's right. At this point, Umlaut's been
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  going for quite a while, 20 years.
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  Yeah, yeah. It's, I don't know, it's, yeah,
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  it's been very off and on. Yeah, OK.
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  Yeah. So, so, so it's not, it's, it's,
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  there's no kind of, that's why I, I, I never really quite put a
• 1:06
  number on these things. And I, I kind of get a little
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  bit embarrassed by the, by the numbers.
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  I'm like, because because it's sort of there's, there's an
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  implication I feel with that. Oh yeah, you guys must have done
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  this. You must have done, gone there,
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  must have done that and and that's not the case that as as
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  maybe it should be. So that's fine.
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  That's, that's a fair perspective, yes.
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  Nonetheless, you are going to be releasing your latest album,
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  Desolate on OverDrive Records. Now, is it correct to say that
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  it's July the 25th? Is that the day?
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  Yeah. That's that's right, yeah.
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  OK. And the first thing I should say
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  before we get into any questions, I love the album.
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  I think it's tremendous. I was, so I'm currently in
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  Oxford at the moment, but I kind of spend my time going between
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  Glasgow and Oxford, which is about 350 miles or 500
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  kilometers if you prefer. And on the last drive that I
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  had, I was listening to Desolate and like, I think the whole
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  album is great and we can get into particular parts of it.
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  But in particular for me, the although I'm not great with
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  remembering the names of the tracks, the Tarnished Legacy,
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  the first track and STFU, I love these songs so much.
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  So it's like I listened to the album and then I was just
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  repeated listening to those two tracks and singing along.
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  Oh, wow. Like at full volume.
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  But I was thinking anyone that's driving past me, that's seeing
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  me like shouting along to these songs might think I look quite
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  weird. But yeah, it's.
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  Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you.
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  It's a great album. That's.
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  Thank you so much. I appreciate that.
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  It's funny because we, we didn't know where to put the, the
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  tarnished legacy for a minute. It was kind of like it was sort
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  of the, the one that almost was kind of an oddball, I guess,
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  amongst the rest of it to, to our, our minds.
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  But yeah, that's, that's huge. That's a huge compliment.
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  And I'm, I'm honored that because, you know, I, I would
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  hope that that would be the case for people that they go like,
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  oh, these are really, you know, that they, people would really
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  be able to sink their teeth into them and, and then get that
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  enjoyment out of them. You know, that's kind of that
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  was sort of the point in a way. It was just like, just do some
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  there anyway. I was, I guess some songwriting
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  stage of things. I hit on a few things that I was
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  like, wow, I almost was having these kind of out of body things
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  going like, well, I can I can hear this on a larger scale or
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  stage or something. You know, there was like, and
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  you know, anyway, I've been I've had the other the side thing.
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  I'll try to be quick about this, but I've also had like this day
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  job for for several years where, you know, people would say to
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  me, why don't you just write a hit, you know, or like, or
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  they'd say an old friend would say something like, why don't
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  you just do a song like a Faith No More song that, you know,
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  sorry to drop that name right out, right out of the gate.
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  But like where it's just like the bass is just playing like
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  one note or something. And not that those songs are are
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  that necessarily, but you know, I think on some level this it's
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  it's I, I like catchy songs. I like things that just don't,
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  that aren't kind of messing around.
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  They just kind of get right to the point and give you the give
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  you the stuff that you that you love about it.
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  Like, you know, so that's kind of what's what's going on with
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  those two songs in a way. Well, that's also like, I think,
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  I think in terms of the album as a whole, because there are all
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  kinds of other highlights. For me, that's an element that I
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  really appreciate is that you've got this eclectic, varied
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  instrumentation and writing, you know, like you'll, you'll jump
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  from, from one part into another.
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  And which is not to make it say, make it sound like it's
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  fragmented, like it, it goes together very nicely.
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  But it's like, I guess, you know, if we're going to go back
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  to Mr. Bungle. And I know that you like, you
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  know, from listening to you doing interviews, you tend to
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  downplay your role. But I have the feeling that once
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  it was towards the end, like with the California time, you
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  were more involved with the songwriting.
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  Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah.
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  They were encouraging me more and more.
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  It's funny, I used to say I used to refer to him and Trevor used
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  to get the shits with me because I'd I'd be like, Hey, what are
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  you guys doing? Or this or that?
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  I would, and it's so in my language, I would sort of be
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  distancing myself or I felt like a little bit like I wasn't maybe
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  in the club because I wasn't there from, you know, the, the
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  earliest days. And he would, I remember one
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  time he sent, I think it was around the Disco Volante era.
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  He was like he, he had, he'd he'd sent me like a demo of
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  like, or some of the ideas that were going around before the
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  album had gotten underway. And, and, and the, the title of
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  the on the cassette, you know, if you was just like, you're in
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  this fucking band. So, you know, and they they
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  would sort of encourage me. We went along, you know, because
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  I would they yeah, they would just try to sort of support me
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  and and and instead of just being this like, you know, this
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  just a horn player or something. Yeah, you know.
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  Because I think that for people who listen to this, I, I, I
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  think I don't know if you, if you, if you would agree with
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  this. It feels to me like this somehow
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  feels a little bit like it has more in common with California
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  than other umlaut releases that you've done.
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  And I think like that dimension that Mister Bungle had of
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  jumping from one part to another and it making sense is something
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  that you've got here with with Desolate.
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  And it also has that kind of like positive summary feeling.
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  But it's in a way that's very surreal and bizarre, which I
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  think is part of what so many people, myself included, loved
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  about Mr. Bungle. Particularly that latter period
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  where it was like, oh, this is like Beach Boys music, but it's
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  Beach Boys music that's on POT and is drunk and hanging upside
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  down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
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  I appreciate that. Thank you.
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  Because I, because again, you know, I, I think people here
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  have heard from me and I've probably, I've probably said it
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  a few times. I'm not trying to give any
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  actually. I was just going to, I was sort
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  of realizing like some of these this, this, this chaotic stuff
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  on the walls behind me. I'm like, this is probably
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  somebody going like, why is that that foam thing crooked or
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  whatever? And anyway, I'm, I'm constantly
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  trying to fix these damn things up and then anyway, but and then
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  they fail a little bit. But but back to the music.
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  It's like on some of us, like maybe it's a bit, it's just been
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  this thing of me, just this like I, I really appreciate bands
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  that are, that are, that are in earnest and doing things that
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  are very and take themselves very seriously and, you know,
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  and, and aren't kind of messing around with a listener too much.
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  Not to say that I don't like a bit of a, of a tangent.
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  God knows I, I speak in tangents really, but it's, I don't know.
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  I guess on some levels it's like I wanted to do some, some songs.
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  I want him to just to sound like as serious as a heart attack as
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  like where the listener might come away going like, Oh my God,
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  what happened to him and what, what did he go through?
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  And is it real? Or is it, is he just doing a
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  character and whatever? And so, you know, I, I, it was
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  so I and, you know, and, and then there's other times I'm
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  just, I'm just a total clown. And I'm, I'm pretty good at that
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  too. Well, I'm not good at it, but it
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  just happens. Yeah.
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  So, yeah, it's. So I, I guess it's like I love
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  catchy bits and I love hooks in songs and I'm, I'm, I feel like
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  in a lot of ways with, with some of this, the things I'm doing,
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  whether it's melodies or whatever, I'm going, I'm kind of
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  like I'm trying to 0 in on the hook, you know, and, and, and
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  just be that thing like what is going to make this listener go F
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  yes, like this is what I wanted to hear and this I'm going to
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  come back. I want to come back to it, you
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  know, and also strangely enough, and some of the songs I we get,
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  we have like a nice little tasty morsel of a hook, like at some
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  point or maybe even in the middle of the song, and then you
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  only get to hear it once. And I'm just like, now I have to
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  play the song again to hear the thing again or whatever.
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  And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, I guess a lot of times I'm
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  trying to do that because, you know, I, I've, I've complained
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  to Angus about stuff like say, for, for example, and I
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  apologize to people that heard me say this 1000 times.
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  But like Zappa, say Frank Zappa, I'm like, I have nothing but
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  respect and and, you know, astonishment at what he he did
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  musically and and otherwise. But but when he's like, don't
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  you eat that yellow snow? Don't you go with the Huskies as
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  like when he's doing it seems like kind of a jokey vocal.
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  I'm just like, I kind of just, I'm like, I'm kind of losing
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  interest and that's just my taste.
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  But I'm not to say that that's that I'm right in that because I
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  but anyway, so like there's a lot of times.
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  Yeah, I'm, I'm not trying to, I don't know, I guess with this is
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  probably the most songs where it's just kind of it seems like
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  as far as songs go, even though it's not like I'm, you know,
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  being a clown on the rest of the UMA stuff.
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  A lot of this sort of recent stuff has been kind of emotional
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  or seemingly sort of serious or something.
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  But yeah, that particular track, the tarnished legacy, kind of
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  like I'm like, what even is this?
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  Because this, because it seemed like it's sort of an oddball in
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  the album listing. And then Shane the bass player
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  was like, he's like, yeah, just let's just have it be the first
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  track. It's the first just out of the
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  gate. Just get the weirdness out of
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  the way or something, or the the strange one out.
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  So that sort of was, was the thinking there and I was like,
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  all right, maybe that's the way to go, even though I would have
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  buried that song a little bit later in the in the running of
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  it. So people kind of sort of
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  surprise them and then they're like, oh, oh, I like that, you
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  know, because a lot of times you have like 10 track album, the
• 9:44
  8th song or the 7th song or kind of the throwaway ones, you know,
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  it's like the filler or something.
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  So yeah, no, that's, that's awesome that you're that you
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  were like listening to those and like kind of really vibing on
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  those. So that that's cool.
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  Yeah, there's a couple of things.
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  Good. There's a couple of things out
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  from what you said that I wanted to to sort of to go into in more
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  depth. So just in terms of of the
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  tarnished legacy and that almost being kind of like an
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  afterthought of where to put it for me, it listening to the
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  album as a whole, having that at the start and having this, the
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  refrain about it took me a long time to forgive you.
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  And that's now it's all I ever do.
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  And then when you get to SDFU and it's about now it's but it's
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  like the I, I only what was it that it's it's about saying
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  sorry as well. Yeah, I overused the word.
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  Sorry. Yeah, now it's lost it's
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  meaning. Now it's lost it's meaning.
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  So to me it's it's almost like it's a nice circle that it comes
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  round to that it's like it's not clear who the people are, but
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  they felt like they were sort of connected.
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  So it was kind of like this nice arm that.
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  Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  And then it's like, I like the idea of, you know, of, of a
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  lyric, you know, it's like, it's like people asking about like, I
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  was just talking to a good friend recently about like the
• 10:52
  idea of doing, doing an interview about an album or
• 10:54
  talking about the music. And you know, I, I mean, I know
• 10:58
  this is maybe even as well a cliche.
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  It's like the idea of like, you know, once you've, once you've
• 11:02
  recorded a thing or made a thing and then you, it's out in the
• 11:05
  world, it's like it's not yours anymore.
• 11:06
  And it's kind of like an insofar as like, if I feel a certain way
• 11:10
  about a thing or I'm like, oh, it wasn't blah, blah, blah, or I
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  wanted it to be another thing or that it's like, it's got nothing
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  to do with it. It's like it's whatever the
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  listener, you know, feels about it is, is, is, is what it is.
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  It's sort of like, and so, and the way I realized this, I love
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  the idea also with with music where it's like you're listening
• 11:28
  to a song you like, I don't know, it really speaks to me or
• 11:30
  like it really resonates, you know, it's like, you know, so,
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  so the idea that like, you know, we go around and we're and we
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  have, we're we all, we all, we're all kind of in our own
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  little like vessels, these bodies and we're having these
• 11:43
  experiences and things. But and when we and there's,
• 11:45
  there's feel like it's a unique thing and like, I only, you
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  know, everybody has their own struggles and different things
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  they're going through. But you know, in a lot of ways,
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  the the real revelations when we when we hear like our experience
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  coming through another person's mouth and we go, oh, wow.
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  And then suddenly it realized like, wait, maybe there's more
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  things that we actually share and we're vibing on.
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  And it's like, you know, instead of this being this separation of
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  like everybody's unique and this, everybody's having their
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  own things, which is also true. I, I, I'm not trying to diminish
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  that, but it's just more the idea that like the, the feeling
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  or the, the, this, the inclusivity of like of kind of
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  a, a general kind of language. And then if you hear a thing and
• 12:24
  then it's, it's resonating with you and you're like, and then
• 12:26
  you think about it and it reminds you of a, of a thing
• 12:28
  you've a person has gone through.
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  I love that kind of overlay, you know, and that universality,
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  even though it's more of a global thing, it's not really so
• 12:35
  much about the universe. I don't know.
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  We are, we are sort of Stardust looking back and and thinking
• 12:40
  about ourselves. But yeah, so it's like I so
• 12:44
  there's all those things in it, but you know, it's like like the
• 12:47
  serious kind of side of it. It's just like, you know,
• 12:50
  sometimes I I love the idea of and I'm still still trying to to
• 12:54
  get to it and do it more as well.
• 12:55
  It's just like, you know, it's just just because, because we've
• 12:59
  all heard those artists or, or a musician or a song or some kind
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  of thing. We're we're just like, it just
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  sort of hits you and you're like, wow, Oh my God.
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  Like that's either something that I've gone through or
• 13:10
  whatever or that it's but that it's real, you know, it's just
• 13:14
  like, yeah, it's like, and and that's that's that was a really
• 13:19
  seemed sort of like has been a theme in some of the in recent
• 13:23
  years as far as like the the songs I write.
• 13:25
  It's like because I'm not really a so much of A storyteller
• 13:28
  really. But but it's like I can.
• 13:30
  But you know, the real emotions that, that I can kind of get
• 13:33
  into the music and whatever. I, I love that kind of thing
• 13:36
  because 'cause it's all too easy for me to just be a clown and
• 13:39
  joke around. And I do that most of the time
• 13:41
  anyway. It's just like, you know, to the
• 13:43
  point where people are like, you're always joking around.
• 13:46
  Why can't you be serious about a thing?
• 13:47
  I remember somebody criticizing that and I'm like, I'm just
• 13:50
  nervous and I'm, you know, if I laugh, it's it's when I'm under,
• 13:53
  under a certain amount of stress, you know, it's like if
• 13:56
  I'm having a bad confrontation or interaction with a coworker
• 13:59
  or whatever, it's like I might laugh and it's like, it's not
• 14:02
  really that I'm mocking the person, although that might be
• 14:05
  in there a little bit, but it's more that I'm just, I'm
• 14:07
  incredibly nervous, you know, and uncomfortable and a thing.
• 14:10
  And it's just sort of like this this release.
• 14:12
  But yeah, I just like I, I love that those, those songs spoke to
• 14:17
  you and that you kind of, you know, those resonated with you.
• 14:19
  And because it's like, when I really think about the, the
• 14:22
  overall, the umlaut, kind of like whatever the arc of it or
• 14:26
  what it used to be when it started out and to what it's
• 14:29
  become now, It's just, it's, it's just like, you know, I, I
• 14:33
  said in some other interview that it was like, the one good
• 14:35
  thing about the pandemic was that there was no FOMO in so far
• 14:38
  as like, remember was that thing I had this thing was like, Oh,
• 14:41
  wow, every touring musician that I could be looking at going
• 14:44
  like, Oh God, I wish I could be doing that.
• 14:46
  I'd love to be doing that. Just like flopping around on
• 14:48
  some stage somewhere. And then I'm like, Oh, wait,
• 14:50
  nobody's doing anything right now.
• 14:52
  It's like, and I was like, wow. And it was just this, this kind
• 14:55
  of calm, calming kind of like thing for me.
• 14:58
  And that's maybe that maybe that's petty or, or any number
• 15:03
  of things on some level, but I'm like, I just, that's OK.
• 15:06
  That's all I was going to say about right?
• 15:09
  I got to learn how to stop. For myself, I'm one for going on
• 15:14
  tangents and I think you've, you've said at least three
• 15:16
  things there that I want to, to reference back to.
• 15:18
  Let's see if I can manage to do it.
• 15:19
  First of all, in terms of the, what you're saying about that
• 15:23
  kind of like individual experience in music and then
• 15:25
  that sort of, you know, the, the global perspective of the
• 15:27
  universality. I was having a conversation with
• 15:30
  another musician a while ago and I was sort of asking her, why is
• 15:33
  it that I'll listen to bands like Today is the Day, for
• 15:36
  example, who are like really extreme.
• 15:38
  The music's really intense. It's often very kind of violent
• 15:41
  and hateful. And I listen to that music and
• 15:43
  it like kind of makes me feel warm inside.
• 15:45
  And she said basically, well, it's because it's because you
• 15:48
  can relate to it. It's like you feel that that
• 15:50
  person feels something that you feel and there's a connection
• 15:52
  there. So I guess that was kind of that
• 15:55
  it seems in a way like a sort of an obvious thing, but it's like
• 15:57
  you don't, you know, think about it until someone points it out
• 16:00
  necessarily that like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily matter what
• 16:02
  the mood is, but it's like if you feel something and you go,
• 16:05
  oh, that other person understands me in a way, even if
• 16:07
  they've never met me, that can be a very powerful thing.
• 16:10
  And I think with the latest records, I think part of what's
• 16:13
  kind of like emotionally satisfying is that there is the
• 16:16
  playfulness and there is the absurdity in amongst all of
• 16:20
  that. You can you can hear the
• 16:21
  sincerity as the listener and you have these these like very
• 16:25
  rousing kind of anthemic moments.
• 16:27
  But also to your point, you don't necessarily stick with
• 16:29
  them for as long as the listener might expect.
• 16:32
  It's not like when you've got a song on the radio, you go like,
• 16:34
  oh, OK, so like now the verse parts done, now we're going to
• 16:36
  have the chorus and now we're going to go into this bit in
• 16:38
  this bit. Like you've got the elements
• 16:40
  that are emotionally resonating, but how long they're going to be
• 16:43
  there for or where they're going to appear is uncertain.
• 16:46
  And that's kind of part of the one of the album.
• 16:48
  It's like, whoa, I wasn't expecting like in the track Cold
• 16:52
  Sore, for example, like the fact that you've called it Cold Sore,
• 16:55
  it makes it sound so kind of incidental.
• 16:57
  But that ended up, for me, being one of the most emotive tracks.
• 17:00
  And I think it. Was it was even in it wasn't
• 17:03
  like a vocal part of that. I think it was something to do
• 17:06
  with I forget exactly what the instrumentation was, but there
• 17:08
  was like a break that came in in the middle of the song and I was
• 17:11
  like, wow, that really like I really feel that one.
• 17:13
  So that kind of that's cool emotion, but also the surprise
• 17:18
  of it, yeah, I think is really nice.
• 17:20
  It's kind of like part of what makes the album so charming.
• 17:22
  Thanks. Yeah, it's and even even that
• 17:25
  was since that wasn't that was kind of a kind of one that we I
• 17:29
  wasn't sure if we were going to have in there as well.
• 17:32
  Like Angus was really pushing for us to to include that one
• 17:35
  because I was just like, I don't know, it's sort of an old, old
• 17:38
  track and but it's it's. Yeah, it's an interesting one.
• 17:42
  Like it's and you know, it's. Yeah, it's a very old one, but
• 17:46
  I'm like, I because I, you know, that was that was really Angus
• 17:48
  is kind of like work as far as like, or that's that's on Angus.
• 17:54
  I think in a lot of ways for and Shane and Shane as well for sort
• 17:57
  of really lobbying to to include that one on the album because
• 18:00
  it's kind of like a little bit of a time capsule from, you
• 18:03
  know, from the 90s. But yeah, that's really cool.
• 18:06
  I, I guess it's, it's, it's always that thing where I keep
• 18:09
  coming back to this thing where I, you know, you make a thing
• 18:12
  and you and you and, and I've got all, all kind of opinions
• 18:15
  about like whether a thing might be to whatever, to standard or a
• 18:21
  little generic or this or that. And then, you know, it's like,
• 18:24
  and, but it doesn't, but you know, it's, it's kind of like
• 18:28
  when you said the, you know, you, some of there's a certain
• 18:30
  emotion that comes through and you're like, it's, it's, it's,
• 18:32
  it might be a very violent or kind of intense thing, but
• 18:35
  you're like, oh, that kind of calms me down.
• 18:37
  It's like I've had those same feelings, like listening to some
• 18:40
  black metal or some kind of thing or like this band weakling
• 18:44
  that from back in the 90s. It was kind of a metal kind of
• 18:47
  like band like like Emperor and back in the day.
• 18:50
  And it's like, it's like, how, how is that?
• 18:52
  How could that be where you have this kind of like chaotic, like
• 18:54
  a very intense thing. And it's like, I think it, it
• 18:57
  probably speaks to something to do with, you know, probably some
• 19:00
  union kind of like thing where like the shadow side of like,
• 19:04
  you know, we go around, we're trying to be nice people, we're
• 19:06
  trying to be functional. We're trying to be not assholes
• 19:09
  or whatever in life as people and in society and whatever.
• 19:14
  And then, you know, and meanwhile there's this kind of
• 19:16
  simmering kind of like, no, well, it's not, it's not even a
• 19:20
  simmering thing. It's just like it's part of it's
• 19:22
  like the light in the dark. You know, you need, you need the
• 19:24
  light to have the dark, you need the dark to have the lightness
• 19:26
  and that kind of thing. And it's like it's never just
• 19:28
  like all happy and, and, and rainbows all the time and just
• 19:31
  perfect kind of things. It's like just, if we're honest
• 19:34
  about, you know, feeling a certain way and, and even
• 19:37
  amongst like our most benevolent and kind of like good-natured
• 19:42
  kind of, you know, or just, or whatever behaviors like there's,
• 19:47
  there's, you know, it's just a anyway, it's just this is all
• 19:50
  very thought cystic maybe or something.
• 19:53
  But yeah, it's, I think it's all part of it and it's, and it's,
• 19:57
  it's just the contrast, you know, it's like, it's the, it's
• 19:59
  the brutal sections of a song that make the, the gentle parts
• 20:02
  of a song, you know, sound nicer and then and vice versa and all
• 20:05
  these kinds of things. But yeah, I, I don't know, I
• 20:07
  think even like with the with one of these old songs that we
• 20:10
  did. A secret disposable boyfriend,
• 20:13
  which is like it's it's basically like a suicide
• 20:16
  fantasy, you know, and it was just like, and it was just like
• 20:18
  it was a breakup song, but it has like but it the but the
• 20:23
  narrative of the vocal and the lyrics is like it's it's the
• 20:26
  girlfriend saying it to the to the, you know, the soon to be
• 20:29
  ex-boyfriend. Some of the lines and then it's
• 20:31
  other times it's just, it's just, you know, the boyfriend,
• 20:35
  like in his head, thinking about things and then other, other
• 20:38
  lines. And so it's kind of it's, it's
• 20:39
  unclear like what, who The Who the narrator, so to speak, is in
• 20:43
  that song. And I, I like playing with those
• 20:45
  kind of themes a little bit as well, where it's just like,
• 20:48
  wait. And then you're like, but it's,
• 20:49
  but it's just never really come up in interviews where like,
• 20:51
  hey, is that just one viewpoint in that song?
• 20:54
  Or is it like, is it something the other person said or that,
• 20:58
  you know, the, the. Yeah.
• 21:00
  So it's just like, it's, it's kind of fun that to kind of have
• 21:02
  those options and realize that there's no, there's no real
• 21:04
  rules. I mean, things can be complete
• 21:07
  messes and, and it's up to the listener to decide.
• 21:10
  And you know, what a thing is, if it's, if it's trash or if
• 21:13
  it's, if it's great or whatever. But yeah, hopefully, yeah.
• 21:19
  That point about the different perspectives I think goes back
• 21:21
  to kind of what you were touching on before that, You
• 21:23
  know, if we listen to a piece of music, you can you can listen to
• 21:27
  some lyrics and you can interpret them for yourself and
• 21:29
  they can have some special meaning to yourself.
• 21:31
  And then I think sometimes if you actually, and I guess This
• 21:33
  is why a lot of the time artists don't really want to say too
• 21:36
  much about what they meant because it can spoil it for the
• 21:38
  listener. It's like you have this idea for
• 21:40
  yourself and the, the, the, the listener says like, oh, the,
• 21:44
  the, the songwriter says like, oh, well, it was about when my
• 21:46
  mum broke her foot and you're like, that's not what I thought.
• 21:48
  The. Song was about so sometimes it
• 21:50
  ruins it, yeah. Yeah, so to have that, to have
• 21:52
  that what you're describing, where it's like actually the
• 21:55
  person talking can be different because I think that was also a
• 21:57
  thing. I mean, you brought them up, so
• 21:59
  I'll bring them back up again. Like with With Faith No More.
• 22:02
  Like possibly my favorite Face No More album is King for Day 4
• 22:06
  for a lifetime. And one of the things I really
• 22:08
  like about that is that it seems to me that with some of the
• 22:11
  songs, the way Mike Patton's singing, it's like he'll be
• 22:14
  going between two different characters, but he doesn't make
• 22:17
  it obvious. And so you're listening to that.
• 22:19
  You're just kind of like, oh, this is I've got this whole
• 22:21
  world, but it's not really fed to me.
• 22:22
  Like this is the one person and this is the other person.
• 22:25
  And that's kind of effective. Yeah, that's really, Yeah,
• 22:28
  that's a good point. I I think I've had that a few
• 22:30
  times listening to his songs where and again, I, you know,
• 22:36
  people forgive me for this, but I like, there's been moments
• 22:39
  where I've heard, I've heard him like a line in a song and I'm
• 22:42
  like, oh shit, is he talking about me?
• 22:44
  And again, I, I know that's so like, you know, that's like, Oh
• 22:48
  my God, it's like make it all about yourself kind of thing.
• 22:51
  And that's what my ego does really well.
• 22:53
  Everybody. No, it's, you know, and, and but
• 22:56
  I've, but I've had those moments listening to some of that music
• 22:58
  where I'm like, who the hell is he talking about in this thing?
• 23:01
  And then, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's and it's a
• 23:04
  fascinating kind of thing to kind of, you know, to, to, to
• 23:08
  roll, you know, all ran in your head with, you know, and it's,
• 23:12
  but you know, yeah, it's so, yeah, I was just like I said, I
• 23:15
  was having that conversation with this friend and, and it
• 23:17
  was, we were sort of like, and it really came back to that
• 23:20
  thing of like, and again, this is, I understand people.
• 23:23
  Maybe, you know, lesser interviewers might be like, so
• 23:26
  tell me about the album. What's the album about?
• 23:29
  You just go like, you could literally say anything, but
• 23:32
  it's, you know, and then and then they'd be like, whoa, oh,
• 23:35
  he said it was about this thing. It's like, and then and then you
• 23:37
  go, well, were they just pulling my leg the whole time or
• 23:39
  whatever? Were they being sort of earnest
• 23:41
  about it? And then not knowing if a person
• 23:43
  is just trying to be mysterious or if they're just insane or
• 23:46
  whatever, All the, all the above.
• 23:48
  But I, I have AI have a problem, a seeming problem like of just
• 23:53
  trying to, I'm too confessional with a lot of these things.
• 23:55
  Like somebody will just ask me a thing.
• 23:56
  I'll be like, you know, like, oh, finally somebody asked me
• 23:59
  what my little breakup song was about.
• 24:00
  And then I, and then they go into the details and then it was
• 24:03
  like, and maybe it's, it's lessening on some level, but
• 24:06
  yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of a fun thing to do.
• 24:09
  And then, and then it's, it's fun to sort of leave these
• 24:12
  little, or have these phrases like certainly in bumblebee
• 24:14
  shoes, there's, there's a lot of lines in it.
• 24:17
  And then even somebody could be like, what the hell is this
• 24:18
  about? And you know, and then I'm, I'm
• 24:21
  just like, oh, finally, you know, but, but, but also it's
• 24:24
  fine if if nobody does. But it's like there's a lot of
• 24:27
  times when I. I'd like for someone to ask you,
• 24:29
  but if no one does, it's okay, I don't mind.
• 24:34
  What there's a word for what I, what this thing, what it is, is
• 24:36
  I'm doing, it's employing maybe or something.
• 24:38
  No, but it's like, but I, but I do have, I do have times when
• 24:43
  I'm, I'm a little bit self aware of like, oh, this, this line is
• 24:47
  going to compete, confuse somebody and they'll be like,
• 24:49
  what the hell is he talking about?
• 24:51
  You know, and then I'm kind of like, I'm just sort of waiting
• 24:54
  for the, the inevitable or hopefully inevitable question if
• 24:58
  such people are that interested or care or whatever.
• 25:00
  And I can, but, but again, it's, it's interesting that you that
• 25:03
  you bring up that, that point, you know, that sometimes that
• 25:06
  might ruin the mystery of a thing and sometimes it's the
• 25:09
  mystery, you know, that is, is the whole point.
• 25:11
  So not, but I'm, I don't, I'm not that mysterious, other than
• 25:16
  somebody going like, why is he so whatever the way he is or
• 25:20
  whatever. And then maybe it's a little
• 25:21
  more interesting, but it's but it's also boring.
• 25:23
  But anyway. Yeah, well, I am.
• 25:25
  I am going to delve into that a little bit, but I'm going to do
• 25:26
  this in a very long winded way, which is often my style as well.
• 25:30
  Because I wanted to mention, first of all, we have some
• 25:32
  incidental connections. So you're currently living in
• 25:37
  Melbourne, right? Yeah.
• 25:38
  So I was born in Melbourne. Oh, what?
• 25:41
  And also your mother, I think was German, right?
• 25:45
  She was from Hamburg. Is that correct?
• 25:47
  She, I think it was Stuttgart or yeah, or maybe or Frankfurt.
• 25:53
  I'm, I'm not sure, one of those two.
• 25:55
  I'd have to check with my sisters.
• 25:56
  OK, well this is a little bit more tenuous, but I, I lived in
• 25:58
  Germany for a few years. So I lived in Dusseldorf and I
• 26:00
  lived in Berlin and I have no California connection, but I
• 26:05
  have interviewed Nate Goyer. And Nate Goyer has interviewed
• 26:10
  you at least twice. And I've actually met Nate Goyer
• 26:12
  because I interviewed him when I was living in Germany.
• 26:14
  And he said to me at the end he was like, oh, you know, if
• 26:16
  you're ever in Sydney, come and say hi.
• 26:18
  And I'm like, well, The funny thing is I'm actually going to
• 26:20
  be in Sydney in two months time because I'm visiting family.
• 26:22
  So I ended up meeting Nate and going to various record stores
• 26:25
  with him. And I love Nate.
• 26:26
  I, I love his podcast, the Vinyl Guide.
• 26:28
  And one of the things, which is kind of going back to about your
• 26:31
  lyrics, when I was listening again to one of the interviews
• 26:34
  with you, you were talking about at that point, I forget exactly
• 26:37
  when it was, I think it was about maybe 2020, you were
• 26:39
  talking about doing some instrumental music with on louts
• 26:42
  and the kind of self consciousness of thinking, are
• 26:45
  people going to think that because I don't have lyrics that
• 26:48
  it's like it's something less because it's instrumental.
• 26:51
  And, you know, there was a fair bit of the conversation where
• 26:53
  you were sort of talking about the value of music being
• 26:55
  instrumental, which I totally agree with.
• 26:57
  I think there's lots of great instrumental music.
• 26:58
  But I found it interesting to be listening to that and then also
• 27:01
  listening to this album alongside it where it feels like
• 27:05
  the the vocal melodies and some of the lines are so impactful
• 27:10
  that to me, it's kind of amazing to have heard you speaking just
• 27:13
  before saying like, I don't really feel very comfortable
• 27:16
  making lyrics when you're doing it so well.
• 27:18
  So do you like you sort of mentioned you've touched on a
• 27:21
  couple of times since you've been talking that this felt like
• 27:24
  a bit of a departure for you? So was there something in
• 27:26
  particular or particular factors that led towards you focusing on
• 27:31
  these very kind of memorable vocal hooks that you do have
• 27:34
  this time around? Well, I.
• 27:35
  Don't know, I, I think I, there was some, some relationship
• 27:37
  drama that I'd had around 2017 that sort of cracked me open in
• 27:45
  it's, it's kind of like, it's like people have to kind of hit
• 27:47
  a certain kind of bottom I think in a way to before they, they
• 27:51
  sort of wake up. And it was yeah, I don't know.
• 27:56
  And it's, it's without getting too, too nitty gritty or
• 27:59
  whatever. It's like I feel like there was
• 28:01
  something, there was some kind of download or something that
• 28:04
  some kind of something that came through or it was just like the,
• 28:09
  the, the, the horror of, of this, this thing that happened
• 28:13
  with this, this person, this relationship and the, and the
• 28:16
  disintegration of it was like it was so sort of wrenching.
• 28:21
  But I don't know, I guess like that was, I mean, that was, that
• 28:24
  was certainly something that, that, that, that, that was
• 28:26
  there. But there was, yeah, that's, but
• 28:29
  I don't know if that's the main, the whole thing, the whole
• 28:31
  story. But would you say that, like at
• 28:34
  that time, was that in a way kind of like an inhibiting
• 28:37
  factor, Like you didn't really have the perspective to be able
• 28:39
  to write songs about it, whereas now that there's more distance
• 28:42
  that maybe you're able to sort of express some of these
• 28:45
  experiences vocally because you're not like so close to
• 28:48
  anymore? Maybe I guess it's like like
• 28:51
  when I'm, when I'm trying to because I'm because I think both
• 28:56
  of those songs, this is this is kind of a funny thing.
• 28:59
  Both of those songs were kind of like workshopped on on commutes
• 29:03
  in the in my car. So like, it's sort of like
• 29:06
  belting, belting a thing out and then and like belting like a
• 29:10
  melody that comes that's coming through out or just kind of like
• 29:15
  like riffing on a, on a, on a phrase or an idea.
• 29:18
  And then and then finding like the lyric that goes to it.
• 29:21
  Or even starting from like a phrase.
• 29:24
  And then like kind of like just kind of churning it over and
• 29:26
  over again until, until I kind of hit like a, a hook or a
• 29:30
  melody. What is the STF?
• 29:35
  I presume so that sounds for what I think it stands for.
• 29:37
  Yeah, and it's, and again, it's and somebody could say like what
• 29:40
  is that? That is that's not everything,
• 29:41
  that's not in the lyric of the song or whatever.
• 29:43
  And it's like it's kind of like it's it's it's like my it's like
• 29:46
  my future self talk to my past self of like of a way of how to
• 29:51
  have better coped with the situation.
• 29:54
  And coming from such a verbose persons myself, it's sort of
• 29:58
  like it's like if I had just feud or something on some level,
• 30:02
  but it's like that that actually that song was that that were
• 30:05
  that lyric was also was also a theme out of like this theme
• 30:09
  that I keep talking to Angus and people about.
• 30:11
  And and when we're talking about mixing, I'm like it's about
• 30:14
  addition through subtraction. And so that by by that, I mean
• 30:17
  like, you know, on say the very first UMA album, it was like
• 30:20
  it's very overcooked. And it's like all the ideas are
• 30:22
  in there. It's like I kept we kept going
• 30:24
  and there was no kind of like, well, does the mute this?
• 30:26
  Does the music breathe? Like not until recent years did
• 30:32
  I did I sort of have that idea in my head like, oh, the music
• 30:34
  should breathe. It's just like, it's like that
• 30:36
  what we're talking about light and dark and it's just like
• 30:39
  there has to be, you know, some kind of background for thing to
• 30:42
  be seen or, or whatever, you know, it's like, and that's that
• 30:47
  lyric. It used to be like I overused
• 30:49
  the word sorry. Now it's lost its meaning.
• 30:52
  I overused the word sorry, now that it is and it but the but
• 30:55
  the melody used to be this like, and I basically was like, I got
• 31:04
  to just chop off the end of that because this is like, it's like
• 31:08
  boom and just chop that sucker off.
• 31:10
  So like the listener can go like they can catch up with it and
• 31:14
  then be like, Oh my God. Because it's like, and it was
• 31:17
  like by chopping off that of it or whatever it was, what made
• 31:20
  suddenly it was just like, oh, look at that.
• 31:22
  Oh my God, suddenly I have gold sitting right there.
• 31:25
  And it was like, and that was a real kind of thing of like, it's
• 31:28
  what you take out of the music that makes it, that makes it pop
• 31:32
  or whatever. It's never kind of like, what is
• 31:34
  it? What what other thing do we need
• 31:35
  to throw in? It's like, you know, I know
• 31:37
  cooking is a, is a very, you know, often used kind of like
• 31:41
  analogy or something. But it's like, you know, it's
• 31:43
  like you put too much salt in the thing and then this you
• 31:45
  can't get the salt out. So that the metaphor doesn't
• 31:47
  quite work. But it's like, yeah, it is that
• 31:50
  thing where it's kind of like there's something magical in
• 31:52
  that where you could go, you could go, OK, I've got that.
• 31:54
  I think I've got the beginning of something good.
• 31:56
  And you're just like, you got the thing.
• 31:57
  It's all connecting. And it's like, wow, it's just
• 31:59
  nice long melody and whatever. And then it's just like, OK, but
• 32:02
  it's not, there's no, the hook is in the is, is not being
• 32:05
  revealed. So it's like, what do I have to
• 32:06
  take out? And it was so.
• 32:08
  And the, the, the brilliant thing about that is that if
• 32:10
  you're doing that song live or whatever, it gives you actually
• 32:14
  time to get a breath. Yeah.
• 32:17
  And so it's whereas in the past, I'm always like, you know, you
• 32:20
  think more is more and it's just and it's again, I know less is
• 32:22
  more. We all have heard that for time
• 32:25
  in more immemorial. But it's like it was really true
• 32:27
  and I love that. And then even in a mixing sense,
• 32:29
  like there was, there used to be the saxophone part that went
• 32:32
  over the middle of the, the grumpy library where the we're
• 32:36
  sort of like after the singing stops.
• 32:37
  And then it kind of goes into this thing where it's just sort
• 32:39
  of like an instrumental break in a way.
• 32:41
  But I'd spent two days putting the saxophone line on this
• 32:45
  thing. And then Angus was like, Nah, it
• 32:46
  doesn't work. And I was like, you know, it's
• 32:49
  just like, and part of me was like, but I spent two days doing
• 32:52
  the thing and but it was just that kind of thing.
• 32:54
  I'm going like, no, he's right. It doesn't, it doesn't need it.
• 32:56
  And I'm going to listen to his intuition on this and we're
• 32:59
  going to go with it. And then I eventually forget
• 33:01
  what the saxophone part was that I thought was so precious and
• 33:03
  needed to be there. So again, was that another thing
• 33:05
  of like, yeah, what needs to go? Because this, this isn't, this
• 33:09
  isn't breathing and and then the hoof isn't, isn't really there.
• 33:12
  So even and, and well as well with the tarnished legacy, it
• 33:16
  was like, it was a similar thing where it was like, yeah, it's
• 33:20
  just, oh, the other thing I was going to say is like a lot of
• 33:22
  times I'll find like a phrase with a melody and then I'll just
• 33:25
  kind of it'll kind of repeat a lot.
• 33:27
  And, you know, sometimes to not great effect and I, I, I would
• 33:32
  go guilty, you know, but and I, I kind of realized recently,
• 33:35
  like one of the bands that I was getting sort of marinated in as
• 33:38
  a little kid was the band Cheap Trick.
• 33:41
  And I was listening to someone cheap Trick from you, whatever,
• 33:44
  the late 70s, early 80s kind of stuff.
• 33:46
  And I was like, Oh my God, this is where I get this thing.
• 33:48
  They'll take this like, I want, you want me or whatever.
• 33:52
  And then they just like, and it just keeps going on and they're
• 33:57
  just like taking that thing and just kind of move it along.
• 33:59
  And then it's like, and then there's some other little words,
• 34:01
  but he, he back in the day, this guy in Cheap Trick was also a
• 34:05
  terrible lyricist in a way. And then suddenly it gave me all
• 34:09
  this permission to be like, oh, see, look, this is where I get
• 34:12
  it. I can blame it on this guy where
• 34:13
  it's like he's just taking a phrase and repeating it over and
• 34:16
  over again. And maybe on some level it hooks
• 34:18
  into a person's brain and it's easier to remember like a person
• 34:20
  like David Burns said like famously or something.
• 34:23
  He said, like, you wear the same outfit all the time.
• 34:25
  People remember you more easily because whatever.
• 34:28
  So it's like you're sort of like, you know.
• 34:30
  He's the guy that wears that hat.
• 34:31
  Yeah, it's just like, it's just like, and you're and you're just
• 34:34
  like, and hopefully it's not the worst kind of outfit or hat or
• 34:37
  whatever, but you're like, it gives you permission to be a
• 34:39
  lazy guy. Like I just put this on and it's
• 34:41
  like, it's like you always wear this like whatever.
• 34:44
  And yeah, if it's if it's a memorable thing that it's, it
• 34:46
  could be good. But I, I really do try to live
• 34:50
  by that addition by subtraction where it's just like, because I
• 34:53
  mean, we have these, these digital workstations where it's
• 34:56
  like you can, you can have so many tracks and you can just
• 34:58
  keep throwing another thing on top, another thing.
• 35:00
  And then it just, it's just mud or whatever.
• 35:02
  And hopefully we didn't, we didn't do too much of that, but.
• 35:05
  That is a really good point. Yeah.
• 35:06
  Like, I think I forget if this was a There's probably so many
• 35:09
  times where people attribute quotes to Mark Twain.
• 35:10
  They weren't actually Mark Twain, but was it Mark Twain
• 35:12
  that said that? The like, one of the main things
• 35:14
  about editing is you've got to be prepared to chop out your
• 35:16
  favorite sentence. So it's like, yeah.
• 35:19
  It's like, you know, Mark Twain. So yeah.
• 35:20
  Like with the thing that you were saying about the saxophone,
• 35:22
  you can have something, you go, this is amazing, I want this to
• 35:24
  be in it. But if it doesn't serve the
• 35:25
  piece as a whole, you've got to have that ability to be able to
• 35:28
  say this just isn't working within the context of everything
• 35:32
  else. And I guess that kind of
• 35:33
  principle of subtraction, a lot of the time it comes like, I
• 35:35
  don't want to get rid of this thing.
• 35:36
  I like it, yeah. But the thing as a whole is
• 35:39
  maybe going to be better if you take it away and you leave
• 35:41
  something to the imagination one.
• 35:42
  Of my favorite authors, Charles Bukowski.
• 35:46
  And it was like, it was almost like reading his stuff.
• 35:48
  And I, I was drinking a lot at that point in time.
• 35:50
  This is like, I don't know, it kind of goes with it.
• 35:54
  Yeah, like 1520 years ago or whatever.
• 35:56
  And it was like, and it was just like meditative about it or
• 35:59
  whatever. It was just like as like Zen
• 36:01
  poetry where it's just like the shortest sentence.
• 36:03
  It's like she walked into the room.
• 36:05
  She sat down her drink. It's just like three word
• 36:07
  sentences or whatever. And, and, and it, it's like, I
• 36:11
  always think like also with my writing, if I'm writing like a,
• 36:15
  a letter or a thing or, or, or usually with, if I'm typing like
• 36:19
  a, some kind of thing, it's like I, it's always that it's, it's
• 36:22
  that that same game comes up. I'm like, OK, what do I need to
• 36:25
  take out? Am I, are there words that are
• 36:27
  just cluttering the, the, the idea here?
• 36:30
  And can I get rid of them, you know, you know, kind of thing.
• 36:32
  I wish. So again, I fancy that I would
• 36:34
  be a good editor or proofreader on some level where I would just
• 36:36
  go, yeah, you don't you don't need all this kind of like
• 36:38
  floored, you know, Proustian language.
• 36:40
  And I mean, sometimes you do. But.
• 36:43
  But yeah, I love, I love that that idea of like, sometimes you
• 36:46
  have to throw away your favorite thing.
• 36:48
  You know, it's just like, because it also there's also
• 36:50
  something that feels like you can almost, you know, it's kind
• 36:55
  of like pat yourself on the back in a way.
• 36:57
  Some, you know, just be like, yeah, I I made some sacrifices
• 36:59
  for this. You have a person gets like
• 37:02
  whatever the the the the interview or the conversation
• 37:05
  later, like you have no idea the genius that I took out of that
• 37:08
  thing so that it would work or whatever.
• 37:10
  And the people are going what? And then it's like the person
• 37:12
  go, you know, kind of patting themselves on the back of like
• 37:15
  the sacrifices they made. And it's literally just like,
• 37:17
  haven't they took out something that they thought was so
• 37:19
  brilliant that maybe might not have been so brilliant?
• 37:21
  But yeah, that's, that's an interesting thing and it in a
• 37:25
  lot of ways is a good practice. Like I, I, I'm nowhere near it.
• 37:28
  And I, I, I, I, I, I, I aspire to do it is to just watch my
• 37:33
  thoughts more instead of just like commenting on things like
• 37:37
  all the time. Like my fiance said, like I
• 37:40
  sometimes I'll have like complete conversations in my
• 37:42
  head or short conversations, hopefully in my head where I'm
• 37:45
  like, Oh, I could, I could have pointed this thing out, but
• 37:47
  this, but she would have been, you know, maybe annoyed by it or
• 37:50
  she's like, what, what are you talking about now?
• 37:51
  And it's just like, she might be, you know what, multitasking
• 37:54
  or something already. But, and it's that thing where
• 37:55
  I'm just like, and then I'll later go, wow, I noticed all
• 37:59
  these comments and I managed not to say them because, you know, I
• 38:04
  can be pretty annoying, I think at the best.
• 38:08
  So yeah, that's, that's also a fun exercise.
• 38:09
  I think it's a good, it's a good practice, especially for me, you
• 38:12
  know, and because I feel like I've said to people, I said, you
• 38:15
  know, one day I'm, I'm just going to, I'm just going to be
• 38:17
  like a vow of silence because I've, I finally realized like,
• 38:21
  you know, goes back to the SDFU thing.
• 38:23
  It's just like, and it's part of that thing of like, I overused
• 38:25
  the word and it's like, you know, and I don't, and it's not
• 38:29
  like I'm meant to be a threat of like, what do I'm going to think
• 38:31
  about with silence? And you guys are going to be
• 38:33
  like, please just say, just talk to us though something says, you
• 38:36
  know, it's going to be like, no, and you'll be you'll be better
• 38:38
  for it. And it's not like a cry for help
• 38:40
  or or despair even. It's going to be like, no, it's
• 38:43
  going to be the on some level, I'm just going to be like, I'm
• 38:45
  just going to have kind of finally, because you kind of
• 38:48
  level down to where I'm not just this kind of manic mess all the
• 38:52
  time, you know, I. Had a very interesting.
• 38:55
  It's aspirational, so I can dream.
• 38:58
  You, you, you reminded me of a little incidental situation I
• 39:01
  had once. So when I was doing philosophy
• 39:02
  and, umm, a university and I was always one of those people who,
• 39:07
  if there was a tutorial class, like, I always was like happy to
• 39:10
  talk constantly. Like I, I don't, it wasn't like,
• 39:12
  I was sort of, I'd like to think I wasn't kind of like overtaking
• 39:15
  the space or overrunning the space, but like, if I'm asked
• 39:18
  for my opinion, I'll definitely give it.
• 39:19
  And I, I, I realized that this was like my style that I'm sort
• 39:23
  of like always expected to be on hand to talk.
• 39:25
  And so there was one day where I came into the tutorial and there
• 39:27
  was like half a dozen and I thought, you know what?
• 39:29
  Consciously I'm going to get through this whole thing and I'm
• 39:31
  going to say nothing. And I got through the whole
• 39:33
  thing and I just didn't say anything.
• 39:35
  And at the very end the lecturer said, are you okay?
• 39:37
  I was like validated I I was correct about my assessments of
• 39:44
  myself. That's awesome.
• 39:46
  Yeah. No, I, you know, I was recently
• 39:48
  in the, in the lunchroom with some coworker and he was, he was
• 39:52
  kind of like sympathetic to a certain person, a certain
• 39:55
  political person's thing. And I was just like, really,
• 39:59
  really. And I'm, and I was getting, I
• 40:01
  was getting more and more angry, agitated and angry.
• 40:03
  And I was just like, I was like, man, this is.
• 40:05
  And then I sort of was sort of realizing, like this guy is sort
• 40:08
  of my spiritual teacher where I have to learn how to sort of
• 40:11
  coexist. And and accept that like
• 40:15
  whatever on some level. And then also I just don't have
• 40:18
  to engage in the thing, you know, it's like, I mean,
• 40:21
  anybody, any idiot can say, yeah, you shouldn't be talking
• 40:24
  about like politics and religion network anyway.
• 40:27
  It's going to, I think it's going to like it's.
• 40:29
  One thing to say as advice, but it's another thing in the
• 40:32
  situation. Oh, 100% yeah.
• 40:34
  So it's, and again, it's like, and it's a challenge.
• 40:37
  I mean, it's it's it's an aspiration of mine is to be able
• 40:39
  to kind of just be like just be like, you know, or even, you
• 40:44
  know, if I'm going to push back at all, if I'm, if I'm going to
• 40:47
  bother, just be like, you sure about that?
• 40:49
  Just like, and stopping there and not like expecting them to
• 40:52
  kind of like, yeah, whatever. I think my Airpods are just
• 40:56
  about to die. So I.
• 40:57
  I, I, I aspire to say, I aspire to that a little bit, the more
• 41:00
  Socratic approach of like getting the person to ask the
• 41:03
  question rather than imposing my view.
• 41:04
  But it's very difficult to do. Yeah.
• 41:07
  Eagle eyed viewers would just know that notice that suddenly
• 41:09
  the Earpods change, like what happened there.
• 41:13
  So I just wanted to ask you like a couple more questions about
• 41:16
  the album. So we'll actually know before I
• 41:18
  before I do, there's one Bungle related question I want to ask
• 41:21
  you. So from my understanding, the
• 41:24
  the split of Bungle at the time that it happened was kind of
• 41:27
  acrimonious and, you know, it didn't end well just for you on
• 41:31
  a personal level from that point.
• 41:33
  Because I understand that, you know, there were songs that
• 41:35
  you'd written or that you were working on that you kind of like
• 41:37
  had this idea they were going to be for the next Bungle album as
• 41:39
  it was planned. I know for myself personally,
• 41:42
  it's like being involved in some kind of artistic project.
• 41:44
  When you invest a lot of time and energy into it and it ends,
• 41:47
  it can be quite hard to motivate yourself to then go like, OK, I
• 41:51
  have to accept that's done and I've got to move on and start
• 41:53
  something else afresh. What do you sort of remember?
• 41:56
  Like what was it like going from, I mean Mr. Bungle and now
• 42:00
  it's like right, OK, I was had these plans and now it's done to
• 42:03
  being able to step away from it and go I'm going to start
• 42:05
  something different. What was that transition process
• 42:08
  like for you were? You were you reading?
• 42:10
  I was asking. Maybe I was yeah, I think that
• 42:13
  was around the Bukowski days, a lot of the Bukowski stuff, but
• 42:18
  and maybe I was drinking, yeah, more kind of regularly then.
• 42:22
  But I don't know. I guess, you know, a lot of a
• 42:26
  lot of the Miss Mungle time was was spent kind of waiting, you
• 42:29
  know, waiting around for people to come off of tours with their
• 42:32
  other band and stuff. And so there was a lot of
• 42:35
  downtime. So it was kind of like it was
• 42:38
  more of an unceremonious kind of just like fizzling out.
• 42:41
  That happened around 2004. And then also I was I we had a
• 42:47
  young, we had two young children at the time.
• 42:49
  So I was, we were just sort of like, you know, doing it rough
• 42:52
  with, you know, as a, as a struggling young family at that
• 42:57
  time, like the kids would would have been like, you know,
• 42:59
  whatever, four and three also around that time.
• 43:02
  So we, we were sort of busy doing, you know, like surviving
• 43:06
  as a, as a little family, young family.
• 43:08
  You know, it's like we got, we got Mike on Atlas face, you
• 43:12
  know, like he, he was kind enough to sort of like
• 43:14
  contribute his, his, his talents to that.
• 43:17
  And that was that was really cool.
• 43:18
  And that really sort of put us even more on the map with that
• 43:21
  song. So that was there was something
• 43:24
  kind of like a, you know, that was like a, what do you call it?
• 43:27
  I don't know, a consolation prize and all the branch are
• 43:30
  sort of a consolation prize or something.
• 43:32
  But but it was, it just felt like I because of the of being,
• 43:36
  you know, like a young parent at that time.
• 43:39
  Like I had this, all I had was like this, this little keyboard
• 43:42
  with like an inbuilt 6 track that.
• 43:45
  And I was like, it was just like a very creative time for me
• 43:47
  where it was just like there was no pressure of like we got to
• 43:49
  come up with some ideas and put it towards an album and this and
• 43:51
  that. So it was just like a very, very
• 43:53
  kind of like, like, I don't know, halcyon days of like, just
• 43:57
  like, you know, our, our two young kids and then and then
• 44:01
  just having a lot of time. I kind of really only figured
• 44:03
  out how to how to write music and, and like properly.
• 44:07
  And it was like a real kind of like fertile time for me.
• 44:11
  Like just in the time after the the last California tour and
• 44:15
  then up through, you know, 2007. It was just like a very just I
• 44:20
  had just like all these these archives of ideas that were sort
• 44:23
  of coming through and I was just sort of hoping, hoping that, you
• 44:26
  know, like I was like, I was really excited because I was
• 44:28
  like, wow, I can all these these ideas that I can hear like a lot
• 44:32
  of potential in I'll be able to be able to put it towards the
• 44:35
  next Mr. Bungle thing. Whereas like in the past it was
• 44:38
  it wasn't as I didn't have so as many ideas to sort of contribute
• 44:42
  there. But yeah, maybe maybe ask, maybe
• 44:45
  ask more about that. Like how do you mean?
• 44:47
  Like what? How how the transition you you
• 44:50
  were saying about like? Uh, well, yeah, just like to go
• 44:52
  from like I, I think if I've understood well from other
• 44:56
  interviews with you, there were songs that you had written for
• 44:59
  Mr. Bongo that you ended up releasing as Umlaut tracks.
• 45:02
  So was it, was it kind of like it sounds like from what you're
• 45:07
  saying if things fizzled out in in 2004, that's when you
• 45:10
  released the first umlaut record, right?
• 45:12
  So. I think it was a little, it was
• 45:14
  a little bit later it was umm, it was around 2000.
• 45:17
  I think the the IT was 2008 or 9.
• 45:20
  OK, right. It was actually.
• 45:21
  The first, the first, the first album, yeah.
• 45:24
  But I was like, I guess it's like the real point is this that
• 45:27
  like all the music that I was ever coming up with was like,
• 45:29
  you know, I'm, I was in such a fortunate position, such a such
• 45:33
  a such a lucky position to have like met those guys at
• 45:36
  university at the in the late 80s, you know, when Mike had
• 45:39
  just like joined faith and more, I think at the time.
• 45:42
  And it was so, so I so kind of like just stumbled into it with,
• 45:46
  into meeting these guys. It was such a, you know, it
• 45:49
  wasn't like they were going like, yeah, we've got auditions
• 45:51
  for horn players and we need to and then this guy won the, won
• 45:53
  the spot or something. It was just sort of like they
• 45:56
  knew I could play, you know, drums and, and saxophone and
• 45:59
  whatever, and they needed a horn player.
• 46:01
  And then they just, they just sort of phased me in or asked me
• 46:05
  to, to and I was just like, I'll give it a try, you know, kind of
• 46:07
  thing. Because I was actually in a jazz
• 46:09
  quartet with Trevor and Trey when I first met them.
• 46:12
  I was actually playing drums and Trevor and Trey guitar, bass.
• 46:14
  And then there was a, a trumpet, a guy on trumpet or something.
• 46:17
  And so that's it's that's sort of a strange thing that they
• 46:21
  sort of met me as a drummer because I was playing.
• 46:25
  I don't know, it's just a strange thing.
• 46:26
  But I was so fortunate to try to get back, get back to the point
• 46:30
  is like to have met them that I would like it wasn't lost on me
• 46:33
  that this was like, it was just like a once in a lifetime.
• 46:37
  Like, I mean, Mike Patton is just like, you know, we all
• 46:39
  know, like we've heard that that the incredible, you know, things
• 46:44
  the guy can do. And so it was just like what?
• 46:45
  And then like Trevor and Trey were both amazing musicians as
• 46:49
  well. Danny, of course, you know, so
• 46:51
  it was just like what? And then I just kind of looking
• 46:54
  around like I didn't, I didn't really go towards this or ask
• 46:57
  for this. I just kind of like happened
• 46:59
  into it and that maybe that'll make a lot of really, really
• 47:01
  amazing musicians out there really angry.
• 47:04
  Like what this asshole over here just like, and I mean, I mean
• 47:09
  crazier things have happened with other kind of like
• 47:12
  legendary bands or whatever. But so my point is I'm trying to
• 47:15
  get this. Last thing is, is that like any
• 47:17
  music I was ever doing ever was always going to be like if it
• 47:20
  can be used by these guys and utilize.
• 47:23
  I mean, I think Mike kind of kind of like cannibalized some
• 47:27
  of my ideas and got them into air conditioned nightmare and
• 47:29
  then and then took another of my ideas and got into goodbye sober
• 47:33
  day. It's like, and I was, I couldn't
• 47:34
  be more happy. It was like there was there was
• 47:36
  a larger composition or something.
• 47:38
  And he was like, no, I like this bit.
• 47:39
  I'm just going to like take it into Burke and just grab this
• 47:42
  section of a, of a, of a thing that I think is good and put it
• 47:45
  into something he's working on. And that's how that kind of
• 47:48
  went. And so and I was, I couldn't be
• 47:49
  happier. I'm like, yeah, please, just
• 47:50
  like, you know, pillage any ideas that you hear that are
• 47:55
  that have any kind of use to you and, you know, to something
• 47:58
  you're trying to do? Because I I I still look up to
• 48:01
  these guys so much and, and don't feel worthy, you know, of
• 48:04
  to to be in the in the same company of them as them.
• 48:08
  Once Upon as Once Upon a time. You know, it's funny, it's like
• 48:10
  you were mentioning at the beginning of this interview,
• 48:11
  like so OMAT has been around longer than like I've actually
• 48:16
  had moments where I thought like, OK, I got we got here in
• 48:19
  like 2002. And so now it's you know, 2025
• 48:23
  and I had this this moment where I was like, oh, wow.
• 48:25
  And I only stayed in my hometown until I was like, whatever, 18
• 48:30
  or 17 1/2 or something 18. And so I've actually lived in
• 48:33
  melt this town longer than I've my hometown.
• 48:37
  So I'm like, where is my true home?
• 48:39
  You know, you sort of go like, but it's the formative thing.
• 48:41
  And then right. And you have these kind of like,
• 48:42
  oh, these whatever the memories and the and the narrative and
• 48:45
  the story of identity around that and whatever, and growing
• 48:48
  up in a place and we feel some kind of like kinship to that.
• 48:51
  But it's like, but it's a strange thing to do when you
• 48:53
  start doing these, these little math kind of things about like,
• 48:55
  well, you've actually been doing this other thing longer than
• 48:57
  this other thing. And then this other thing
• 48:59
  eclipses it or, or, you know, but it's like, you know, Mr.
• 49:03
  Bungles still put me on the map and people only know me from,
• 49:06
  from that. And, and, and you know, and
• 49:07
  again, it's not, it's nothing to be ashamed of or, or this or
• 49:10
  that or the other things. It's like I, I, I felt extremely
• 49:14
  fortunate to have to have had that.
• 49:16
  And then, you know, and then we'll see.
• 49:19
  But it's like, yeah. So I guess it's just the really
• 49:21
  the thing it's, it's never like I, you know, some people can go
• 49:24
  like, yeah, I'm writing some music for this one group they
• 49:26
  have. And I've got some other music
• 49:28
  that's for this other group that I have.
• 49:29
  And they got some, some other like, no, no, I'm like, no.
• 49:31
  Any ideas that you're like Bear? That's that's what I'm like.
• 49:34
  Boom. It's straight to the, to the Mr.
• 49:36
  Bungle thing. It's just like, and all these
• 49:37
  people that have been standing by my side here in, in Australia
• 49:40
  for 20 years, I'm like, you know, just like, like, hey, come
• 49:45
  on. You know, But it's like it's,
• 49:46
  it's because I, I hold these guys in high regard.
• 49:49
  Not that I don't hold these local guys in high regard also,
• 49:52
  but it's just like, it's sort of like, you know, I don't know,
• 49:55
  it's, it's, and it's like these things like the tarnished legacy
• 49:58
  or, or STFU. It's just like, you know, in a,
• 50:00
  in a perfect world, I would have said, here you go, Mr. Bungalis,
• 50:03
  let's do this thing, you know, but then meanwhile you, you're
• 50:08
  just, the years sort of tick by and other things happen.
• 50:10
  So you're just like, no, I'm just, we'll just do it.
• 50:13
  I think I think that's a really important insight because like
• 50:15
  as you say, it was a different kind of dynamic and the Mr.
• 50:17
  Bungle experience is something, as you say, you weren't looking
• 50:21
  for it, it just came to you and it was this amazing thing that
• 50:23
  opened doors for you. And yes, disappointing that it,
• 50:27
  it fizzled out the way that it did, but that you were then kind
• 50:30
  of like, oh, well, now I'm not in the position that I was
• 50:32
  before. Now I've had these experiences,
• 50:33
  I've been to play in these places, I've had this recording
• 50:35
  experience, I've got my own music.
• 50:37
  And now, oh, now I can be sort of like the leader.
• 50:40
  I don't know if you want to call yourself the bandleader, but I
• 50:42
  can kind of like lead a project and go like, this is now what
• 50:46
  I'm going to do. So I can see there would be an
• 50:48
  empowering side potentially to that as well.
• 50:50
  Yeah, I, you know, it's like I, I think even in, in the early
• 50:53
  days in 2003, maybe around thereabouts, I mean, it's just
• 50:58
  wild to even say that because I mean, you think like where if I
• 51:01
  said something like around 20 years prior when I was 18, it
• 51:05
  was just like what? I wasn't even here yet or even
• 51:07
  when I was 25, thinking of the 20 years ago, it's just like
• 51:10
  that's ancient anyway. And it is.
• 51:12
  But whatever. Time doesn't exist.
• 51:15
  But on some level it's like I think somebody, I was doing
• 51:18
  some, you know, just working out my little ideas and I hadn't
• 51:21
  like put it into like a band form.
• 51:22
  I hadn't really like had nothing that was really kicking off yet.
• 51:26
  And somebody, somebody locally here I think is Dan Toner will
• 51:31
  do A little shout out to Dan Toner.
• 51:32
  He's a a good friend. One of the first people I met.
• 51:35
  We got here, he was like, yeah, you need you need to get a band.
• 51:39
  You need to make a band. And again, it's, it's a hard
• 51:42
  thing. It's like, it's not that if you,
• 51:44
  you know, I mean, not that people didn't know who I was,
• 51:46
  but it's just like, it's just, it's, it's a lot of scheduling
• 51:49
  and you're just like, you feel like, does everybody have the
• 51:53
  time to do the thing around this thing?
• 51:54
  And it's just, it's just a lot of organizing and scheduling and
• 51:57
  it's, it's just, it's really time consuming.
• 51:59
  And then, and then you've got the personalities and the, and
• 52:01
  then it's like D can you interact with other people well
• 52:05
  enough to, to, to make, to make them play your music for, for
• 52:09
  little or no, you know, mostly, most of the time spend no money,
• 52:12
  you know, and it's just like, what is their motivation?
• 52:15
  What is their incentive? And you're just like, can you be
• 52:17
  that charming person or is the music good enough or whatever?
• 52:19
  But it's, but ultimately to, to have a band is, is, is, it's a
• 52:24
  lot of work. And sometimes it's, it's, you're
• 52:27
  kind of like, I'm, I'm not even gonna bother.
• 52:29
  You know, we, we all know that there's plenty of amazing
• 52:31
  musicians out there who just like do entire albums and then
• 52:34
  put them out of, of them playing all the instruments and they
• 52:38
  just, they just can't be bothered.
• 52:39
  It's because it's, it's easier to actually do that in a lot of
• 52:42
  ways, you know, like just instead of like arguing with
• 52:46
  guitar player about like a part or, or this or that or
• 52:49
  arrangement. And it's just like you just kind
• 52:51
  of go, Oh man, I'm, I'm done fighting for this thing so much
• 52:55
  and I'm just going to do it a certain way on my own.
• 52:57
  So I, I think I'm kind of also a control freak in a lot of ways.
• 53:00
  But I think notably with this most recent album, I, I was less
• 53:05
  of a control freak than I've been in the past.
• 53:07
  And you know, like Angus has has got his fingerprints all over
• 53:10
  this, the guitar player and and then Danny as well with with a
• 53:14
  lot of his ideas and Shane certainly as well.
• 53:17
  So it's like, and then and then me kind of like being able to to
• 53:21
  swallow that pride or it's not really a pride swallowing, but
• 53:24
  it's more kind of like letting other people, you know, I don't
• 53:27
  know, it's weird. It's just like, you know,
• 53:28
  because, because and we we usually say like the best idea
• 53:31
  wins or whatever, But, but, but this particular album is kind of
• 53:34
  notable mostly just for Danny, Danny's involvement, but also
• 53:38
  because of how much I didn't completely like hermetically or
• 53:45
  obsessively control every, you know, like aspect of it.
• 53:48
  Yeah, as far as like the certainly the arrangements in
• 53:51
  the orchestrations and things like that and, and some of the
• 53:54
  mix kind of ideas too, you know, but because Angus and me, we're
• 53:58
  both kind of loudmouths. I mean, just beyond.
• 54:03
  We're just worried we can be really horrible and, and loud
• 54:05
  and, and sometimes in a good way, but but a lot of times a
• 54:09
  really terrible way. And so because we're so similar,
• 54:12
  there's a lot of head head butting and, and whatever.
• 54:16
  But but I tried to to be to kind of yield more and kind of like
• 54:21
  go, you know, try to just kind of go like maybe you know.
• 54:24
  Just just just. Aspire to kind of accept Angus's
• 54:27
  production ideas a little bit more and, and, and let him kind
• 54:31
  of go to run with like a lot of these creative kind of like
• 54:34
  ramping ideas that that were done on the on the thing.
• 54:37
  And a lot of these really cool effects that come through are,
• 54:41
  you know, are for because of him.
• 54:44
  Yeah. Well, I love, I love the end
• 54:45
  result and I don't want to suggest, I don't want to suggest
• 54:48
  that the dilution of your personality gets a better
• 54:51
  result, but. Whatever.
• 54:52
  No, no, no. Whatever the configuration was
• 54:54
  between the four of you that got the album to to what it yeah
• 54:57
  being, I think it's great, you know so I thanks so much.
• 55:00
  I hope it gets a great reception when it comes out and Bear it
• 55:03
  was it was an absolute delight to talk to you anytime in the
• 55:05
  future that you have anything to promote.
• 55:07
  I would be delighted to talk to you again on any occasion, in
• 55:10
  any context. Thanks so much man.
• 55:12
  It was a treat. Absolute pleasure.
• 55:13
  Thanks so much.