Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Designing a Legal Career That Actually Fits Your Life - with Lacey Gutierrez

Transcript

Designing a Legal Career That Actually Fits Your Life - with Lacey Gutierrez · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast.
0:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm Ariella, and I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation with Lacey Gutierrez.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: Lacey is a fourth generation lawyer who, despite her legal pedigree, found herself sitting in law school thinking, I really hate this.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: Instead of forcing herself into a traditional big law box, Lacey followed her curiosity into the then nascent world of privacy consulting.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: Today she's a successful privacy attorney and the co-founder of her own firm, proving that success doesn't have to look like the path we were sold in law school.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: We talk about the mindset shift Lacey experienced when she stopped comparing her journey to that of her peers, and about the go-go-go mode of the legal profession, the courage it takes to pivot when a role doesn't fit, and how she built a career that integrates her love for global travel, including upcoming trips to India and Australia.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: Lacey also shares the specific tool that changed her life in 2017, a meditation practice that transformed her from a reactive, stressed attorney into a cooler head in the room for her clients.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: This episode is a reminder that we get to design our careers.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: We also get to design our lives.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: There's no one right way.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: If you've ever felt like a weirdo for wanting something different than the standard firm track, or if you're looking for ways to bring softness and patience into your practice, this conversation is for you.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: I know you're gonna love this one.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Enjoy, and I'm gonna say it.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: Please rate and subscribe.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yes.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm great.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: First of all, this is my first podcast.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Yay! Welcome! Thank you.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: Very excited.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: And also, this is a brand new microphone.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So, first time using it.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: So if my audio is off, please let me know.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: I can hear you.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: So I think we're off to a good start.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: Which is better than some of these have.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've I've done this a few times with people who have done podcasts a bunch of times.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: And the first, you know, five maybe more minutes is okay.
2:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm sitting here, I'm like, I think I have absolutely zero I can actually do to help you, but I'm sitting here on this head and trying to figure out can I, can I, like, should I just pretend to so that you don't feel alone?
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: So you're doing great.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: How are you doing today?
2:18
SPEAKER_02: Other than like, yay, first podcast, and do you have a microphone?
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm good.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're very much in that like between Thanksgiving and and holidays rush.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so busy but good.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Does that mean your brain is starting to shut off, or you're just like in go mode?
2:40
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm I'm in go mode.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: Um I have been like for me, I think the like mid November to end of November period tends to be kind of the peak of busyness for my clients.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm in kind of like a lower scale of busyness than I was before, which is good, but I'm still like I'm in push mode until Christmas.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: Are you do you have holiday plans after that, Christmas plans, anything?
3:13
SPEAKER_02: Any of your solo traveling?
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I'm gonna be doing some traveling, um, planning to go to India and then probably Australia, but still figuring things out.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay, fantastic.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: All right, I'm gonna want to get into all of that.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, I so as you saw, I you would have seen, I think in my uh little pre-spiel, we're recording.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: And then if you end up saying anything that you're like, oh man, I really wish I hadn't said that, you'll just tell me.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: And that's, you know, so this should be just simple and fun and casual.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: And and my aim also is for this to just end up feeling like we're just hanging out, and there just happens to be, you know, a record button on.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: And what led me to do this, just to give you more background, is I when I started like figuring out that, oh, like taking care of myself actually leads me to doing better work and feeling better, like all of huh, well-being is tied to performance.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that wild?
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And I started talking more about that and sharing my experience with people, and then not surprisingly, also discovered that other lawyers felt the same way.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: But so often shit had to hit the fan first before people realized that like the whole burnout track wasn't really sustainable and a great option.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: And I just felt like, well, what if we didn't have to lose our minds first?
4:35
SPEAKER_02: What if we just kind of shared our stories openly and as part of a community?
4:40
SPEAKER_02: And what if all these conversations that I'm already having with people could just be heard by other other people?
4:46
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's what we're doing here.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: Um fantastic.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: So before we get into uh your sort of travel life and how that then impacts your career, which I'm really excited to talk about.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: Tell me what drew you to law school in the first place, and then in a nutshell, how that ultimately led to the work you do now.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: So I'm from a family of lawyers, actually.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: I am from the DC area, and my parents and my brother are all lawyers, and my brother and I are actually fourth generation lawyers on my mom's side.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: So this is something that was in my blood and very much in my family, and I don't feel like I had any pressure to go to law school.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: It just always seemed like a foregone conclusion for me.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, what else would I do?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: Was kind of the way that I thought about it.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it had always been my plan.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I did the typical, like, um, you know, humanities steady, you know, ready.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I was a Latin American studies and poly sci major, you know, typical, like, I'm just gonna go to law school major.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And so for for me, it was like never really a question to go to law school.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: And then I got there and I was like, wow, I really, I really hate this, actually.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: Not expected.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think like I really like being a lawyer.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: I think I think the like I don't like the really academic side of lawyering.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: And and I think law school just seemed so like it the whole thing is hypothetical, and I was not into the academic side of lawyering, and I was, you know, other people were like really into con law, and I was like, I think this is really boring and not for me at all.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was really hard for me to see myself, and I I think part of it was also that I just didn't didn't click with a lot of the people who I went to law school with.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, am I gonna have like, is this gonna be all the people I'm gonna work with?
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And am I gonna hate that?
7:14
SPEAKER_01: So that was a part of it too.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so when I got out of law school, I was actually initially planning to work for a couple of years and go back and get an M an MBA and actually do something completely different.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and my and it, but but I did end up taking the bar, you know, out of law school.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: My parents were like, you went to law school, like take take the bar.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: You can might as well.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: You can do whatever after, but take the bar.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: And I did, and I'm obviously glad I did.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Um and then I ended up working for a company right out of law school that was really more of a consulting company, company that provided like and still does a variety of legal adjacent services, including like law practice consulting, um e-discovery, a lot of different services in those different areas.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up uh getting into privacy consulting when I was there.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: And I was hearing from a lot of people, this is 2017 at the time that you know there were a lot of things happening privacy with GPR coming into effect, and I was like, oh, that sounds interesting.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And so I started doing privacy consulting um in 2017, which was a really big time for privacy.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: And then as I was doing consulting, I did a secondment for a client whose privacy counsel at the time was on maternity leave.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: So my secondment basically turned into me being privacy counsel for them while their privacy counsel was out, and I realized that I loved it.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: And um, so I was like, oh, I'm really surprised that I like being a real lawyer and I like being in-house.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up working for that company that was my former client, and the biggest thing that came out of that is that I met my now uh co-founder and and um and my partner at my firm, Nadov.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: He was my client boss who hired me.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: And um, so it's really, really great to see those relationships carry over to what is uh what is now my firm.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: I love hearing your story because I've had versions of this conversation with so many people where and law students and practicing attorneys, and there's there are so many ways to be a lawyer.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like you maybe find out about a you know, maybe 1% of them while you're in law school.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: And and we're still like the world is still discovering all sorts of other ways to be a lawyer that we we don't even you know know about today.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: And a big question just ends up being well, how do you identify the right path for you right now?
10:16
SPEAKER_02: And what's right for you right now can also change in a year or three years, and that's totally fine and normal.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, but how do you end up even discovering and allowing yourself to try these different things and and end up either where you're supposed to be, you know, next, or you try a handful of different things and then you you find your way, you piecemeal it together.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think when I first when I was in law school and when I first got out of law school, I very much felt like there was a right and a wrong way of you know of proceeding.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
10:52
SPEAKER_02: Like there's a path for a lawyer thinking, just you know, there's there's one right way and one, you know, and all the other ways are shocking.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: And I, and so I felt so weird not going to big law right out of law school.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And I felt like I was really doing something wrong, and that that was very bad.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: And that was something that stuck with me for probably the first like five years out of law school until I started seeing a lot of my classmates leaving their first big law jobs and other people starting to go in-house and other people starting to do different things.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: And that was when I was like, oh, okay, I now feel better about this.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, looking back, I'm like, I would have been miserable if I had gone straight to big law.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I would have left law entirely.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, thank God I didn't.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: But it was really something that like I felt like very self-conscious about at the time.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: How did you manage that?
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you're in this work situation that sounds like you you had a feeling like, oh, this actually, I like this.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: This feels good, but this feels like not what quote unquote success is supposed to look like.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: So I'm kind of enjoying it, or definitely enjoying it, but I feel like a weirdo.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: So what was what was happening in your brain while you were going through that?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: So first of all, I think having the support of my family was really helpful because my my dad is a, you know, is a guy who was a partner in a small firm for his whole career, but my mom was at the federal government for her whole career.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: And so she was very helpful in being like, yes, you could be at SCADIN or whatever, and also like really probably really hating your life.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: So, like, it's okay for you to take this path.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: So having that support was really key.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: And I was also really fortunate to land at the company where I was, where I just really loved the people who I was working with, and that made my life just so enjoyable.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm still in touch with or like friends with like the great majority of the people who I worked with there.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: And I really felt like it was there's this really lovely culture of like we're all in this together, even though like we could all be doing something quote unquote like better on paper.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And that also made me feel better.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, I love working with these people, and like all these individual people are great, and like that's rare.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: It's so rare, and it's so a lesson that I wish someone had told me at the very beginning of my career was um about how important the people you're working with is and how critical the environment is.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: And I now generally recommend that people pay much more attention, especially when starting out, to the people and the environment over exactly what the work is.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: Because if you hate the people and the environment, you are gonna end up hating the work.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm I sometimes think about if I were working with people who I absolutely loved, like could I be doing something wildly different and still enjoy it?
14:10
SPEAKER_01: I think probably.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: Happiness matters.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: We don't really tend to pay a ton of attention to that in choosing our career design.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: No.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: I paid a lot of attention to it now, but I I that's you know, having not done that for the first chunk of years.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's really the single, like picking the people, I think, is the single most important determinant.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: And it seems like we've both realized that, you know, like relatively early on in our careers, which like I'm super thankful for.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there was that.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And then when I initially got out of law school, I was like feeling very, you know, regretful, like, oh my gosh, I do the wrong thing.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So I had initially taken the Maryland bar when I graduated um from law school because I'm from Maryland and my family's in the DC area.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: And even though I was planning on moving to New York, I wasn't planning on practicing in New York.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, okay, you know, if I want to practice, I can go back to DC and you know, wave into DC, not an issue.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And then I moved to New York and really fell in love with New York and was like, this is where I want to be.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: And so I then, while I was working full-time, took the New York bar as well, which was just, I mean, taking taking the bar while you're working full-time is just a completely different animal than when you're studying full-time.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so after that, I like I felt I felt better in a way because I felt more prepared if I did want to get a job at a firm.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: But I also was so stressed out from studying and working full-time that I was like, okay, like I really need to manage stress and anxiety better.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And this probably the single best thing that I've ever started doing, this is in 2017, is I started meditating.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: And that has been like something that has really, really grounded me and like made me like an entirely different person.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: Different how?
16:26
SPEAKER_01: I would say definitely I'm definitely way more patient than I than I used to be.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, there's a certain softness that's there.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Like I will, it's definitely made it way easier for me to be less reactive to stop and think before I, you know, assume the worst about something or someone, or you know, only think about how something's affecting me and not the other person.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: Um I just generally, yeah, it's just like smoothed me out in a lot of ways, and it's really unlocked an ability to it's it's it unlocks like a whole different type of perspective, basically, that's super valuable not only just in my day-to-day life, but also my work as well.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: How do you find it impacts your work?
17:26
SPEAKER_01: I think being able to be the cooler head in the room when a client is really freaking out about something is very helpful to be able to step back and say, okay, let's take a deep breath here and let's think about this, or even being able to say, you know what, let's let's sleep on it and make a decision tomorrow, or let's think about this.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: It's 9 a.m.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: right now, let's think, let's let's talk about this at five today, and then figure out whether we want to, you know, go back to the buyer and accept their counter offer, for example.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that's where it comes in.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: Just just being patient generally with with clients, I think is just a massive skill that I didn't have before.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: What led you to start meditating?
18:14
SPEAKER_02: Did someone lead you onto it?
18:15
SPEAKER_02: Were you struggling and looking for something to help you?
18:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was definitely looking for things to help me.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And I had, you know, done a lot of therapy and I was like, you know, this is like obviously extremely helpful, but I didn't really feel like it was getting me like where I wanted to be.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: And I was um seeing an acupuncturist at the time who um recommended this type of meditation.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: And at the time, like I was so stressed that I would have done like just about anything.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, you get to that point where like, oh my god, I just can't function this way anymore.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so that was yeah, that was in 2017, and it just kind of clicked for me like almost immediately.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: And it's what kind of meditation?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's called Vedic meditation.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, are you familiar with transcendental meditation?
19:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's the exact same technique as TM.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: It's just um Vedic meditation is essentially an offshoot of TM from a TM teacher who left the TM organization.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's just it's the same technique, but just taught differently.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: So it's 20 minutes, twice a day, silent mantra.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Does everyone get their own mantra?
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Do you get your own it's a you it's it's a it's a personalized mantra, but it's like it's not like every single person who meditates gets one.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not totally familiar with the way it works, but it's like um, you know, it's customized to kind of like where you are in your life at that point, I I think.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: Um and it was yeah, go ahead.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: No.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: Did you notice an immediate impact or did it take you oh wow, immediate, like that first session?
20:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: So I I immediately noticed an impact, and then it's also definitely grown over time.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: So I would say like the first month and three months, it was like like wow, every every day you can really feel things shifting for you.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I'm now eight years in, and it's it feels more subtle now, but it's just kind of like like I will notice it if I if I miss a meditation.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, ooh, like I'm not not feeling like I generally do.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it was um like I I had tried like mindfulness, like headspace before.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I had tried like body scanning, and I was like, I don't enjoy this, like this feels really counterintuitive to me.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think having like I I think for anybody who's interested in exploring meditation work generally, like the way I think of it is meditation has essentially become like an umbrella term, like for all of the different techniques underneath it.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Like saying I meditate could be like I exercise.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Like I exercise could mean like you run marathons or you do Pilates.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Like it could be very different things.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of very different meditation traditions.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I'm glad that I kept trying until I found the one that works for me.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: I a hundred percent agree with everything you just said about, you know, it's become kind of trendy to talk about, which is amazing.
21:45
SPEAKER_02: But then I think, you know, most people don't have exposure to all.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, same thing as we talked about, there's a zillion ways to be a lawyer, there's a zillion ways to meditate.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: And you know, you're I've heard people talk about, you know, when you go in the shower, you're meditating.
21:58
SPEAKER_02: It's just you get in.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: This quiet state, your brain, you know, is kind of flowing about and you bring it back, and then it flows about and you bring it back.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: And we don't have to get all fancy about it.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: You can, um, but you gotta also just figure out what works for you.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: So, what was causing all this stress, or what was your stress reaction that led to you going, I cannot keep going this way.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: I need some help.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Things have to change.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: What was life then?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: I think it was really, it was right after I had.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: So when I started studying for the New York Bar while working, that was when I felt the stress of studying for the bar, which as you know is like its own type of stress.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't think I had ever been as stressed as I was while studying for the bar.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, both exams that I that I studied for.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: And also I would things were busy at work at the same time.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: I was in a role where I was managing a lot of people who are working on projects in person.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: So that was hectic.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: And like a fresh, you know, really fairly fresh out of law school, and all of a sudden did a totally new kind of job of managing people, managing projects, studying for the bar.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: All right, no big deal.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot, a lot going on at once.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And then after I took the bar, I think I just assumed, like, oh well, now I'm done with the bar, and so the stress will go away.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: But it was like I had almost like worked myself up so much that I like couldn't unwind, basically.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: And I was just, I just felt like I was in this constant state of anxiety where I like I wasn't sleeping well, and I was just like worrying all the time.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: And I was, you know, very impatient because I wasn't sleeping well and just like super worked up.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, this is just not, this is not sustainable, and not only for for me, but like the people around me, like it's not pleasant for them either.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, which is I think for people who are struggling with anxiety, like sometimes it's more of like an internal experience, and sometimes it's like internal and external.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: And for me, I was like, it's actually more motivating for me to focus on like the external, like the effect that it has on other people.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, it feels very rude to me for me to be like, you know, snapping at people who I should not be snapping at, like, because I like haven't slept.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: So that was actually like probably like one of the biggest motivating factors for me, but also is like I cannot keep like you know, having this like revolving like loop of thoughts in my head.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is not, this is this is not not a way that I can keep going.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: So you a year or so ago, maybe more, launched a firm with your former client.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: And as I understand it, you set out to create the kind of firm that when you were in-house you would have wanted to work with.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: So when you were in-house, what what were you thinking about with, you know, when you when you were choosing the firms that you worked with and you were like, ugh, okay, not quite getting exactly what I needed.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: What were you looking for?
25:32
SPEAKER_02: And so how are you now building that out now that you're in charge?
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: So what we wanted is, so I mean, have you ever have you ever been in-house?
25:44
SPEAKER_02: No, a lot of my practice now is as a fractional GC, but I haven't actually been in-house.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, my career was interesting because I had never, you know, done the like law firm or big law and then transition in into in-house.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: I really started in-house.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And you just there's a different mindset when you're in-house.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: One is you're you're much closer to the business and you really know the company and you really know the people.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And so you're really more of a business advisor than a purely legal one.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And you're, you know, sometimes you're working with junior people and salespeople who are like, what would you do?
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, what, like, what's the move here, even though it's really not a legal question.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, oh, this is actually a very different way of lawyering than, you know, when you're at a firm, it's it's obviously just challenging to be as close to the business.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have a bunch of different clients, you, you know, you only get the piece of of the the business that you're kind of learning about in the calls and interactions that you have with with the client.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like there was, I felt like the biggest thing that was missing, and this is specifically on mostly on the privacy side because privacy is my is my specialty area, but also generally on the commercial side in the media and ad tech world when you're entering into you know deals, and yeah, I was representing a media company and I was getting questions like, okay, like we really want this campaign.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, can we accept this deal?
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, we understand this contract isn't perfect, but like, can we accept this deal?
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Because the other option was losing the deal.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, there wasn't, there's often not a whole lot of leverage for negotiation.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And so I think what was missing for me was the understanding of the client's risk tolerance and really putting yourself in the role of my role is to educate you on what the risks are, to identify those risks for you.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, you're the expert in your business and the decision is yours.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not here to say, like, no, you can't do this.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm here to say, like, like, here's my recommendation, like, here are the pros and cons.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, you can sign this, here's what could happen.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: But also, like, if you don't sign this, then like, yes, you could lose this million dollar deal.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: So I I think it was I think it was the partnership in that, in that way, because a lot of my in-house clients, the business people, were like the like the people at the law firm said we couldn't do this, and felt like it was a like going to like the police who were like, no, you must stop, you know?
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so now you've got your firm.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: What are all of the pieces you're putting in place so that you really can integrate into the teams of your clients and talk about, you know, your flat fee model, which I share the same view that, you know, when a client is worried about your six-minute increments, they're just not going to tell you everything.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna wonder, is this question worthwhile, you know, paying to get an answer for?
29:12
SPEAKER_02: And as as I say all the time, the client is the last person who should be deciding whether they should tell you something.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: So we have kind of two different sides of the house at our firm.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: We have our fractional GC.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes we do fractional privacy council or fractional labor and employment council as well, um, which we do flat fee for, and then the other side of the house, the typical, you know, a la carte hourly model, mostly focused on labor and employment at this point.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And I I love the you know fractional subscription model for for for GC work.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, for me, it's great because I mean, billing is one of the worst parts of being a lawyer.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: And and so it really has an impact on how my day is structured.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: And but also just generally, I like being able to communicate really fluidly with my clients and like they can call me or Slack me or text me or whatever, and I'm not thinking like, okay, like six minutes, okay, now 11, 12 minutes.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, I like to be able to small talk with them.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: That's important.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, and and they feel like they can call me and be like, okay, like, sorry if I'm being an idiot about this, but like we can do this, right?
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I'm really glad you asked that because like that, like our contract explicitly says that we cannot do that.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's I don't know, for for me, I love it.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I think it's the model that works best for me.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: I know it's not for everyone, but it's my favorite.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: I also love it.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: Did you have exposure to it before you all you set out to use it?
31:02
SPEAKER_02: Or like how did you figure out how to model your flat piece structure?
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I can't I can't take credit for it.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: It was really my my business partner, Nadav, who was um the person who first you know came up with that model.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And I think the reason why is there's some clients for whom you know they they just aren't sold on that model, that's totally fine.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: The way I think about it is a lot of our client contacts are finance people, and I mean I could never be a finance person because I'm terrible at math, but managing a budget is hard.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Managing a legal budget where you're, you know, where you're going to spend just a question mark every month is really difficult to manage if you're if you're fully hourly.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I think there's I think for finance teams, being able to know how much you're going to spend on legal in a month is massive.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: It's I mean, I I've never heard of a client who's delighted to get a bill at the end of the month and you know, having no idea what it was gonna look like.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: And to me, the the hourly billing model, in terms of transparency and you know, proactive communication with a client, telling telling a client what your hourly bill rate is is not really useful because you okay, so what do you do with it?
32:30
SPEAKER_02: Is that so is this gonna be five hours?
32:31
SPEAKER_02: Is this gonna be 20 hours?
32:32
SPEAKER_02: Is this gonna be 60 hours?
32:35
SPEAKER_02: You're who knows?
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's very hard for a client to estimate hours, like how many hours would you need to to fulfill a client's entire legal needs over a month?
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Like that's a really difficult question because I try to back into it.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: I say, okay, well, how many, how many contracts are you sending out to your customers per month?
33:01
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, well, it depends on the month.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's that's hard to gauge right there.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: And then also, are these, you know, are you sending out your paper and the client's like, you know, redlining the whole thing?
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Is it a bloodbath?
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Or like, is the customer just sending you their paper and you're signing it?
33:19
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of variation there.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: And then they're obviously like the the random things that come up that you just can't predict for.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Like my clients get a lot of either, you know, copyright infringement, you know, demand letters, or you know, uh privacy litigation and arbitration claims.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: You just there's really no way to predict that those are coming.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, like if I were a client, I I would love to go flat fee.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: And then there will always be lighter months and heavier months, but I I found that it always evens out.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Has that been your experience too?
33:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: And I I prefer thinking about the overall value being offered as opposed to, you know, time spent.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: And and I part of the way I think about the value is also energy spent.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, sure, one month might be heavier than another month, but it all it to me, yeah, it really feels like it evens out in the end.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's primarily what I've heard from others who have, you know, versions of this model as well.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: And I think everybody feels better not counting every single minute, and then you end up really developing relationships with your clients, and then they feel comfortable telling you everything because they trust you and they it's not so transactional, and you're not wondering if your question is too stupid to ask, or if you're sure that you know the answer, and yeah, you know.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I I love the model.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: And also, oh, sorry, go ahead.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: I think also one of the reasons why I really like it is it really helps me allocate my time because it's so much easier to say, okay, I have two flat fee clients and like they're my priority, and like I'm going to respond to them first.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: And I only have bandwidth for you know, like this many hourly clients, like on the side, as opposed to, you know, you could, you know, if you have a hundred hourly clients, that's really, really difficult to allocate your your time and prioritize among those.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: And just to plan ahead and kind of understand what your week, your month is going to look like.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: Because yeah, sure, things are always gonna come up, even with the flat fee clients, but there's more you can kind of set in place and and anticipate.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: So I know that one of the things that you would do differently if you were to go back and start fresh would be to start sooner with a bookkeeper.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: So what are the uh in addition to that, what are the things that you would would do differently now that you've been operating for a year or so?
36:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and are there any mindset shifts that you would have liked or that you've had to make or that you wish you would have made earlier to just make this transition into, you know, being a law firm owner run more smoothly?
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think like I I've heard so many horror stories and for you know year one of a firm, we've had like remarkably smooth sailing.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: So I am horror stories.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: I I'm glad I didn't even know about that when I started.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I've had I've heard a lot of people who have like gotten into like major fights with their business partners or like had had like major client non-payment issues and you know, like have had to go back to to a job because they did a bunch of work and just never got paid.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: There's another value, at least the way that I do it with the flat fee is is advanced payment.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: I think yeah, get getting if if you're if the client gets hit with a bill that they weren't expecting, that's obviously going to have an impact on timing of of payment.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so very grateful that we've had the year that we have.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes, the bookkeeper was definitely very important.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think math people should do math and non-math math people should delegate that to math people.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, so very, very glad.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: And also it's just partner distributions can get complex.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And so it was, we were just spending a lot of time on that.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: So that was great.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Um I think that I think paying attention to scoping for flat fee engagements is important in terms of um just figuring out the time that you're going to be spending and needs that you or your firm may not be able to fulfill at the time.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: Like if there are, you know, non-US needs that come up that you, you know, just hadn't anticipated, or, you know, significant MA needs that came up that you hadn't been anticipating where you have just significantly less bandwidth than you expected.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: I think that's something that I would have thought about more.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's kind of one of those things where like you you can never try to proactively spot every issue before it comes back, before like before it comes up.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: You kind of have to dive in and you're like, oh, okay, so I saw that happens and now I'm gonna course correct next time.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's there are certain things when I first started where I I'm so grateful that I I somehow managed to not have like a maladaptive perfectionist mindset.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: I was just like, we're starting, here we go, yay! And I just jumped in and really had the mindset of this is where I'm gonna start, and then I'm gonna tweak as I go.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: And then there have been other things along the way where I'll get stuck in more of a maladaptive perfectionist mindset where I'm like, no, no, no, I can't.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: The one that I've recently started working through is thinking, no, I can't bring anyone else on until like I have my systems nailed down perfectly, even though like as I grow things have to change.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: And I was just talking about this with on another um with another another podcast conversation.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, so I've gone through my own, like, okay, I'm gonna be imperfect here, and that's totally fine, and I'm okay with it.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: And other ones where I'm like, oh my god, I'm not perfect yet.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: Is that okay?
39:40
SPEAKER_02: It's an interesting difference.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, I I I've I've had the same thing.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, I definitely spent way much more, way more time on our website than I should have because I got stuck in that.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: And I also I lurked on LinkedIn for over a year before I actually could summon up the courage to start posting because I was just like really self-conscious, and I was like, oh my god, like are other lawyers gonna judge me?
40:10
SPEAKER_01: It took me a long time to get past that.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: So I think I would have, yeah, I think like generally speaking, like I feel very good about the first year, but those are a couple things that I wish I could have done differently.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm glad you started posting because that's how we found each other.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, we found each other through um Megan's awesome networking Zoom.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, but then I started stalking your profile.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: And I I loved your piece that you shared about solo travel and then the impact on how you practice as a lawyer.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: So I want to get into that, but first I want to hear what actually helped you go from being a lurker to a poster and a poster in such a way, like that that piece to me was really phenomenal.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: And it shared so much about you, and you really have a have a knack for tying together your personal experiences, showing your character, showing the way that you like to live, and then tying it back to and I'm a lawyer, and this is how it all comes together.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: So I'm very much the type who will lurk, like I'm I'm very much a planner.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: And so what I did is when I was lurking for a year, I had this really long notes app note in my phone because I am a big power user of the notes app.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: And I had just all these ideas for posts and like half-drafted posts and things that I was kind of playing around with.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think it helped me get into the mindset of okay, like here's what I like when other people post, here's what I don't like.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: So, like, this feels authentic to me and this doesn't.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: And then I was also like, I think what helped me a lot was I realized, oh, I really like creative writing, and I can treat this like a creative writing assignment and less like homework.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: And that also opened it up for me.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, this feels creative and fun instead of just like drudgery, and that really helped.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so tell me about your solo travel.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: When did you start even just thinking about it as solo travel, not just travel?
42:29
SPEAKER_02: And and and tell me about your experience with traveling.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: So my first solo trip was when I studied abroad in Argentina.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: I was a junior in college, and I was having an amazing experience there, and I just wanted to go everywhere.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: There's so much to see in Argentina.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: And there was one place that I wanted to go in Patagonia.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: And I like some friends were like, no, like, you know, I just don't want to, you know, would rather spend my money on something else.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Other people were like, oh, like I really want to go to this place instead.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: Other people just like our schedules didn't match up.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And it had never really occurred to me, and I think part of this is that women are conditioned to like be tip, like to think like, oh, I can't eat lunch alone, I can't eat dinner alone, I can't go to a movie alone, like I can't do anything alone.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: And so it just it never occurred to me.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: And one day I was like, oh, I could just go, like without anybody else.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: It almost felt like I needed somebody's permission to do it, you know?
43:31
SPEAKER_01: And so I it was, you know, kind of a trial run.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: I took a like a 17-hour bus down to southern Argentina for a week over Thanksgiving.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: And it was so great.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: Like I met so many people, um, like single people and couples and families.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's really easy to meet people when you're on your own.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Because like you can come up to people, people will come up to you.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: It's just like way easier.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: To engage with somebody who's on their own.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: So it was such a lovely first experience.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: And I was nervous about it.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my gosh, am I going to be safe?
44:12
SPEAKER_01: Am I going to get lost?
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And like every challenge I ran into, I realized like, oh, okay, like if you have an issue, like there's always a way to get past it.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: And now with technology, it's like so much easier.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: But this was like, I had a Blackberry in those days.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Let's, let's, let's put it that way.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: That's that's where we were technology wise.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: This is this is 2010.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, like I would get lost a lot and I would just like walk two blocks and like ask another person and I would get where I was going.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I was never in a situation where I felt like unsafe or where I like, you know, couldn't figure out like any challenge that I was having.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: And that in turn gave me so much confidence.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: And I got into like what I call like the confidence, like positive feedback loop, where it's like the more you do it, the more confident you feel.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: And then you just want to do more bigger things, you know.
45:03
SPEAKER_02: So, what are some of the ways that you bring in your travel experience and travel lessons into your work and in ways that benefit you and your partners, you and your clients, others you work with?
45:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think a big part of it is confidence.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you're you're not always gonna have the perfect answer to a client's question.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they don't need the perfect answer.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: They just need an answer right now.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: They're like, hey, we're about to get on the call with this client.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, what should I say?
45:40
SPEAKER_01: And I don't have an hour to research something, but like what I can give is like my gut and my common sense, and that usually can get you pretty far, even if it's not like not, even if I don't know the specifics of the law.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: You you hear me, right?
45:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm so with you.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: And as you were saying that, I was starting to picture um a section of a book.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: I think it's called The Likability Trap.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: Have you read it?
46:05
SPEAKER_02: Have you heard of it?
46:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I've heard of it.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: And a a bunch of this um book talked about, I mean, the author is a woman, and she spent an a lot of um a lot of time talking about the ways that women are so desperate to have all of the answers and to never ever possibly say the wrong thing or give the wrong answer that they just they don't take action.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: And often men are the ones, you know, who are making progress and and moving up the ladder or whatever the case may be, just because they just they just decide and they don't necessarily have all the facts, they don't really know what's going on, they just go, uh, this here's here's what to do.
46:49
SPEAKER_02: And they might be wrong, but often, as you said, like the client or whoever the other party is, like isn't necessarily looking for the perfect answer.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: They just need to make a move.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: And I that just struck me so much because I I've gone through my own perfectionist phases.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: I've gone through a calling myself a recovering perfectionist, and then now I'm in a phase of really being aware of maladaptive versus adaptive perfectionism, um, which came from uh what's it called?
47:20
SPEAKER_02: It's like my favorite book when I'm like the The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: And I know I can send you that one too.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: That that one is I've never felt more like an author is just like in my soul.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, but though the ideas from both of those books really helped me understand, and I still work on this, but not to get so trapped by needing the perfect answer because sometimes you just have to do something.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the the paralysis of perfection is perfectionism is really challenging.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: Are you are you a Brene Bra Brene Brown fan?
47:59
SPEAKER_01: Have you read her books?
48:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, some of them.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: I I I read all of her works earlier this year, and it was a really great, like a different view on perfectionism that I really, really enjoyed.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: You should you should check them out.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, so that was I I think the the confidence to be able to push back, to push through that, like, oh, like I don't, I don't have all the information.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know everything perfectly right now, but I'm gonna give you what I can give you right now because you need it right now.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Like it's not gonna be valuable to you in two hours because you will have already had the call with your customer.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's a that's a big part being really independent in terms of you know my thinking, not being swayed by by others.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, I've I've worked in some places where there was a certain type of culture in the legal on the legal team where I felt like it wasn't what the business people wanted from the legal team.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: And so like I always want to be the type of lawyer who the who the business people want me to be because it's it's not about me being the world's best lawyer.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not like competing with all these other lawyers to be like the world's best lawyer.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: It's like I want to do the best work for the client.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think the independence is is key and also the flexibility to be able to, you know, there's not necessarily like one right or wrong way.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: Like something that I've learned in in negotiations is like you don't necessarily like, okay, if if you're negotiating a settlement or something, like waiting is also just an option that a lot of people don't think about.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, like that's something that I encourage clients to do.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, like, yeah, this person sent you a couple demand letters.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Let's wait.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, see if they file.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, I know it's scary to get letters, but like, let's see what happens.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: And like, sometimes people don't file, and then you don't have to pay that settlement, you know.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you talked about patience earlier with the meditation.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing, you know.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: It's so I love your the way that you think about bringing your life experience and your travel and creativity into the business and bringing things like, you know, patience and whatever comes to you from your meditation practice.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, the our the work we do as lawyers is not that's not that's not coming from like a different person.
50:32
SPEAKER_02: That's just you.
50:34
SPEAKER_02: And the more that you go out and live your life and even put the law aside while you go and climb mountains and go travel the world and places where you don't necessarily speak the language, you're just developing all these skills to be able to then walk into a room where you don't necessarily know what's going on, but someone needs an answer from you in five minutes and you don't know any, you know nothing.
50:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:53
SPEAKER_02: But you need to be effective.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, how do you do it?
50:55
SPEAKER_02: And how do you trust yourself to know that you can do a really good job at that?
51:01
SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: So if you keep putting yourself in situations where you are like, okay, like this is gonna be unfamiliar and there will be things that I need to figure out here, and like, but I'm but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be able to figure them out.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: And then you get in that situation.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: And sure enough, you can figure them out.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: And then you're like, oh, in many other situations, I can employ that same logic, which is great.
51:24
SPEAKER_02: Do you have any practices other than meditation?
51:28
SPEAKER_02: And practices can mean like just talking to yourself, or you know, something that like, you know, you're you're facing a tough day, whether it's, you know, you didn't get enough sleep and you're just totally wiped, and there's way too much going on this week, or you feel terrible, or you've got 12 clients all at once and you don't know anything about, you know, you you don't have enough information for any of them, and you're just overloaded.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: But how do you approach that and how do you keep yourself going?
51:56
SPEAKER_01: So I would say the meditation is definitely like my major, like the major thing that like powers my life, that like grounds me and gets me through.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: Something else that I got into earlier this year.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: Have you heard of the work of Byron Katie?
52:14
SPEAKER_02: I have, but only I've not not, I don't know what other than hearing it.
52:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I don't really know what it is.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're like, this woman has a cool name, and that's that's yeah.
52:27
SPEAKER_01: Um I heard about it through a friend earlier in the year, and it's um it's like it's essentially a self-analysis framework where you take a thought that is causing you some sort of stress, and that could be anything from like a conflict or like you struggling with perfectionism or imposter syndrome, or like basic, or or it could be like, you know, I don't have the answer to this, or like I don't know what I'm doing.
52:55
SPEAKER_01: It could be anything like that, and you ask yourself a series of questions, and the objective is to like loosen your attachment to the thought, and for me, it like it's pretty incredible because I feel like it just like unlocks something in my brain that allows me to like have a completely different perspective on a lot of things, and so I worked with someone who's a facilitator in this in this framework, and like it's not therapy, but it like feels therapy-esque because you're kind of um like you are shifting your perspective, but that's something that I will sometimes do when there's like something that I'm thinking about a lot that's really bothering me, and I like sit down and do that work, and sometimes I'm like, okay, that kind of gave me what I need to move forward.
53:49
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:51
SPEAKER_02: Any other parts of your life or things that you do that you'd like to share, whether it's you know, specific to the travel or how you manage your own well-being, um, confidence, independence, all of that stuff.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: I think those are like my main things.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also like very much like am always open to like learning new things because I find like I talk to people and I'm like, oh, they're doing that.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard of that, but that could be great for me too.
54:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's one of the things that I'm so excited about with the podcast.
54:31
SPEAKER_02: Is you know there's an endless, you know, volume of ways of tool, yeah, tools that we can all have in our toolboxes.
54:41
SPEAKER_02: And you have to figure out what's right for you.
54:44
SPEAKER_02: And so the more everybody shares a little bit about what they like, then we all learn from each other.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: And you grab from here, you grab from there, you tweak here and there, and then you know, so we I think too often you, you know, even when you recognize, oh, I need a tool, okay.
54:59
SPEAKER_02: So where do you how do you find out about all the tool options out there?
55:03
SPEAKER_02: And so if we just kind of consolidate, give people ideas, and then also, you know, someone can listen to this and think, oh, I've tried a bunch of types of meditation, they haven't worked for me, but this sounded interesting.
55:13
SPEAKER_02: I'll reach out to Lacey.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: And then that would be amazing.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: I I definitely wish that I had had like a glossary of like the different tool options when I was looking for them.
55:25
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, and and one of the things that I'm gonna be building out, so the the podcast is like leading to the development of the wellness house fire community, and then part of that is also gonna have this marketplace filled with resources, resources being humans, and also other of you know, different kinds of tools, so that whenever someone's whether you need a coach or a consultant or uh you know, are interested in looking into different kinds of practices or whatever it may be, as soon as you realize, oh, I'm I'm looking for something to you know optimize my well-being, my performance, everything about the way I kind of live and work, you've got one place to go, it'll be all there, and and then we can support each other on our journeys and hopefully everyone can live healthier, happier, and you know, healthier, healthier lives and and uh build healthier, more sustainable careers.
56:20
SPEAKER_02: That's the goal.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
56:23
SPEAKER_01: That's a great idea.
56:24
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: Good.
56:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for spending time with me.
56:28
SPEAKER_02: This was really fun.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad we were on that Zoom together.
56:32
SPEAKER_02: And now I'm delighted to have you in my universe.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: This is such a pleasure.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad that we got to connect, and I'm sure that this will be the first of many conversations we'll have.
56:43
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
56:53
SPEAKER_02: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
56:57
SPEAKER_02: Maybe right now.
56:58
SPEAKER_02: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
57:13
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to know you.
57:15
SPEAKER_02: See you next time.