Latest / The Padded Cell Podcast / Episode 146 - 'How far is too far?'

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Episode 146 - 'How far is too far?' · The Padded Cell Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Coming up on episode 146.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's a jam-packed episode, folks.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: But something unlocked this vault of shit.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Dad of the year, for me like.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Would you rather me torture them?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'd quite happily do that.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I I would put myself forward.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Happily do the job for you all.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh that's what.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's not fun, isn't it?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Are you a deviant?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like those of us who binge-watch serial killer programs, laugh at the stupid stuff people do, and revel in anything adult?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you found your people! Join us as we crack open the doors of the Path of Cell and release the insanely stupid, the weirdly wonderful, and those who choose to live by size of size for norms.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: We devil into the strange, the macabre, the sexy and the outrageous! So, if you're a deviant, then you have your place with us in the Pathet Cell.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: This episode is powered by our patrons.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks guys as always for your support and a special welcome to our new Patreons.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: Catherine, Daryl, Caitlin, and Jonah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: The last one was fucking brutal.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right, let's do it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right then, let's do it, yeah?
• 1:34
  unknown: Yeah, go on.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to episode 146 of the Padder Cell Podcast.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: And today I'm here with Arn Andy.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Patter Cell ads.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: With your Defoe T shoes.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've got one on that I haven't worn for ages.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: You probably haven't seen this because it's not in the new range.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Go fuck yourself y.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's a boss apparel?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's Aperel.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: If you haven't seen FSA was 142, that won't mean anything.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's Aparel.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is anyway.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Still light mind better.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, we'll go with that then.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: So this is going to happen the 13th of August.
• 2:19
  unknown: Bli.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's the day after our anniversary, Jim and I's anniversary.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: It'll be 21 years this year.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: We like each other.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, 21 years.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Matter, ain't it?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Bertie for the other Zaya shared as well because I know she watches this sometimes.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right, we are going to push straight on because there's quite a bit I want to do today.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: And you've got something, doesn't it?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have, yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's a jam-packed episode focus.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a absolute I don't know.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you don't know because you don't know what I'm doing.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Can't even find the words.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: You're just taking my word for what it's a jam-packed episode.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got uh some on this day is, but there's a couple of um famous people who've like born and died on this day.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to just say a few little things about them.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: You might know these little things.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna I'm not gonna test you, but I'm gonna see if you know.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, then go on.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: So Alfred Hitchcock.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Born on the 13th of August 1899.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously famous for all the movies and all the rest of it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a few things about him that I wanted to try and find out that maybe you guys don't know.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: He was terrified of the police.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: So apparently, when he was about five, his father reportedly sent him to a police station with a note, and the officer locked young Alfred in a cell for a few minutes and told him, This is what we do to naughty boys.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: So the story might have been embellished, but they don't think so because uh Hitchcock himself repeated it throughout his life and he claimed it left him the lifelong fear of police and authority.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Bloody hell.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, that's that's nuts, lad, isn't it?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we've threatened that with our kids over the years.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Carry that on, don't tell the police.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know, yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And made them crash himself up.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Dad of the year for me, like and um Psycho permanently changed movie going.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've seen the series about Alfred Hitchcock uh on Netflix, I can't remember it's called now.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he he touches on this.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: So before Psycho audiences, they just routinely wander in and out of movies, they wouldn't go at the start, they wouldn't always wait till the end, they'd just go in halfway through, watch a bit and go back out again.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see the point, but they did.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they did, and sometimes in in the movies years either there might be two showings, or there might be like a TV programme or some adverts and a TV programme and a movie.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't just one thing, you could go and watch a few things, um, but even with movies, people would just walk in and out of them.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, Hitchcock demanded that cinemas refuse entry after the film had started because he wanted the people to have the full impact from beginning to end, you know.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think as an artist as he is, he's a creator.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: I would also be a bit like, well, you've missed like the important bit, you're not gonna get the whole story now.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think with Psycho you've got to watch it from beginning to end as well, really.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I totally got where he was coming from, but people at the time thought he was just being ridiculous because it was we don't do that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Why would he sit from the very beginning to an end of a movie?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's absolutely mad.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing about him, um, he was knighted only months before his death.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, apparently Hitchcock had spent most of his career waiting for the British honours, and he finally became um Sir Alfred Hitchcock in 1980, just four months before he died.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: But shit, that really isn't.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: When you think about all of his achievements, you know, his contribution to movies and that industry, and also like you know, he brought this genre forward.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, before Psycho and that, okay, there was some like you know, thriller and peril, but not like that.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's I I think it's a great film, and it was like the other thing as well that he did in it as well, didn't he?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Was um the the first person to get married was actually like the top build star.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Which I mean what a name is, but she's like the top build star, and she got killed off in the shower first first off, didn't she?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to think of a name.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: O'Hara.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thingy O'Hara.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Janet Lee.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: Janet Lee?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Janet Lee.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well tough.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: You pluck that out.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Do you remember that Christmas you came round?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: There was a few of us, and we played that game, and it was uh you had to we read a line out for a movie.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like you had to guess the movie.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: You had to guess the movie, yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: And if you got extra bonus bonus points, if you could guess the year and all that, you I don't know if you were pissed or what, but something unlocked this vault of shit, and you got not only your answers, but when we couldn't get ours, we'd get Andy and you'd go, yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know where you got it from.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: That that's that's tell you, that's all even Jim was blown away, and Jim has got a head full of shit.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now, music stuff, Jim just does go and he just plucks stuff out, but with movies and that now, and he was gob smacked that night.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think you it may have been the alcohol just unlocked something.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's just I don't know, I do like films, I do love like but retaining that information you're getting the years and everything.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Of all the things that could be in goods at in the world, that was it.
• 7:29
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I was impressed.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: I do love films, though.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Love going to pictures.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: I I used to like going to the pictures, but um it's just getting a bit expensive, isn't it?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not cheap now, like and uh yeah, I don't want to go and spend£10,£12 to sit in a pack cinema with loads of the people that I don't know, rustling shit.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: They're never packed now, they'll love you on.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, me and Jimmy did go through a little phase of going to the cinema a bit more regular, and we go in the daytime when nobody else was there.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: Between me and him with the whole cinema, it was great.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: The last one I've seen that was like anywhere near busy was when I went to see Barbie Barbie in a Fact and Town on Wood Street.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking kids, it's a fucking brilliant film.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: You went to see Barbie.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, Ziff you went to you took your kids, but you're on your own.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say I'd I I took the kid I took the kids, and you know when I come out at the end, and I was like, that was actually really funny.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: It was okay.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, the arsenal was good.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, it's okay, I'm not judging.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: But cinemas are never packed.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, when we'd be in the day, we'd just been the only ones there, but I don't I can't remember there was a film years ago, and uh it wasn't allocated season, and I think Jim and I were split up, and I think it was either it was in front of me or something like that.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: It was packed, but I can't remember what it was.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, remember because he remembered it.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when it was a kid going like it'd always be packed on that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: But then with things didn't come out on the telly until Christmas.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: I used to love getting the Christmas TV Times and that.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'd circle all the boss films that were coming out for the first time on BBC and that, because you weren't seeing them everywhere else first.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's always something decent on on Krimo Eve.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's just repeat some things you've already seen on Netflix or whatever, yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: Or on jog telly that I haven't got.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've got asked me friends for that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: So the next person I'm going to talk about.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't got it either.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, because we don't do things like that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: Florence Nightingale.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: She died on the 13th of August 1920.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: What is she famous for?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Being the lazy with the lamp.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: So she was absolutely fuming to be known as the lazy of the lamp.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it was an accolades because of obviously the things uh the things she changed in healthcare and all the rest of it.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: But actually, she said uh it overshadowed what she actually achieved.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if you know this, but she was actually a statistician.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: And she was arguably one of the world's first healthcare data analysts.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: She became the first woman elected to the Royal Statistical Societies.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Way too many there for me right now.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Statistical society.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was a fucking tongue twister, lad.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: She loved numbers apparently as much as she loved nursing.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: It was like a real, she'd pop a little nerd.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and actually, she did very little nursing during the Crimea War.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: Instead, she used facts and figures from the war that she'd been collecting to help improve healthcare going forward.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously dealing with people in the fields and trying to, I didn't know at the time, reduce infection, but you know, keeping the place clean and and just recausing injuries and and how people were treated to try and change things in the future.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Great that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so this Lady the Lamp thing that everybody remembers, she reportedly got really frustrated that people focused on the lamp rather than the reforms, if you like, that she made also she owned a pet owl called Athena.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's not mine, but I'm watching it said cute.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: And the bird travelled with her and became something of a celebrity.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and Victorian Society found the whole thing very eccentric.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but she did it anyway, and there's still pictures now of her with Athena.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: If I can find one, I'll flash it up.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: It is definitely, yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, just a few little things there that uh we we didn't know.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's something else as well.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um she declined a state funeral, apparently as well.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: She was offered it, um, but if family declined, she'd apparently said in uh will or whatever that she didn't want to state funeral, it was all just too much fuss.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh she was uh she had a modest burial somewhere in Hampshire, apparently, even though she was a trailblazer, you know.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'll just quietly die and I'll get buried in a pleb grave.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or messing around.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: She was so much more.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: So we're gonna move on to some honest days.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, they were gonna be on this days with I don't really want to talk loads about those two because we know loads about them anyway, but I found some interesting stuff.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: She didn't know?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Did you not know about the thing about people walking out of theatres, Alpha Hitchcock?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: No, that came up in the Netflix.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: That fear of the police one's a mad little story, isn't it?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: I know, yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: After being locked in a cell for a few minutes, but for a kid, that's a long time.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: For a five-year-old to be separated from your parents for five for a few minutes is enough.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: To be separated as a puppy behind bars by a policeman and being told that's what happened to naughty boys.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: But he was hysterical.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: But he came up with some fucking crazy shit though in his mind, didn't he?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: So what year do you think, um you might know, was the last execution in Britain?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: 1967.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: Nearly.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: 1964.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: You ain't far off.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: So on this day, 13th of August 1964, this was the day at exactly 8am that two men were hanged in two different prisons.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: One was in Walton Prison in Liverpool, not far from us, and the other at Strangeways Prison in Manchester, again, not far from us.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: And the names were Peter Allen and Gwyn Evans, and they were the last people to be executed for murder.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: But they didn't know.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: So there wasn't any like, you know, announcement, it wasn't a great historical event because they didn't know they were going to be the last, but they were.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, the story began a few months earlier, so a few months, and then they were hanged.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: April 1964.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: So the two had targeted a man called John Alan West.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: He was a 53-year-old laundry driver from Cumberland.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um Evans had well the guys had previously known this delivery driver West and believed he stored money in the house.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: So the pair travelled to West's home intending to rob him.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: But what happened next was a bit brutal, really.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: He was attacked with a knife and a shovel.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: The assault was savage, the house was ransacked, and his car was stolen.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: When police got there, West was dead and obviously discovered all these things missing, and the investigation moved really quickly.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, within days, the police had identified Alan and Evans.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: Loads of evidence, they weren't very clever at what they did.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think they were really petty criminals, and then sort of got in broad this murder and just weren't clever enough to cover up the tracks, basically.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: So the trial took place at Carlisle, and both men were convicted.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Now, at the time, Britain did still have the mandatory death sentence for certain categories of murder.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and once convicted, the judge had very little discretion.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't like, well, you know, on this occasion I'll just give you life.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, this was the term, if you like, attached to it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: So the sentence was death.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: A murder trial could conclude with the judge with the cap um and formally sentence somebody to hang without, like, there's a jury, but he can like overturn all of that he could have done at the time.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, so what makes it interesting, this whole thing isn't the crime itself, is you know what was happening around it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: So by the 1960s, Britain was becoming more uncomfortable with capital punishment, and there's loads of uh controversial cases that the public were really shouting quite loudly about.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: One of them you might have heard about was Derek Bentley.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't know this, Derek Bentley was with a friend.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Have I written this down?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um I haven't, and he um he didn't actually pull the trigger, he just said let him have it.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a film called Let Him Have It's I think it I think he actually said Let Him Have It, Chris.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: And they found that he didn't pull the trigger, but he was just as guilty because the intent was there.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: But there was a the there was he he said them words, didn't he?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let him have it, Chris.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: But there was some learned difficulty, isn't that interesting?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like did there's been arguments to sort of say he was saying, let him have the gun, Chris.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like let him have it, Chris, you know what I mean?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: So there's different interpretations of that story, and that's what makes his ending so tragic, really.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't I can't remember how old he was, but he wasn't old.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: He was a young man.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think he was a boy.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think he'd a youngish.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, he was a fellow like.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: But young.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um, like like I was saying, it's been debated for years, you know what he actually said there.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there's another case involving Timothy Evans, and he was executed in uh 1950 for murdering his wife and daughter.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's what's his name, Christy, innit?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: Years later, evidence emerged suggesting the real killer was serial killer, John Christie.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: And uh Evans received a posthumous pardon.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Nice one.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks for that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's awful really, isn't it?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, cases like these cause many people to question whether this should be part of the justice system at all.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine getting executed when you know you haven't done it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: I just I I don't know what what goes through your leg really.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, say when you hear about like that, like that that fella who got done erm the local it actually happened like streets away, too.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: The beast of Birkenhead.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he got banged off for like what nearly 30 years and he knew it and he knew he hadn't done it.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, um I not long ago talked about a podcast called The Beast of Birkenhead.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: On BBC Sounds, you would love it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's local to the area as well.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: We've uh she was taught about loads of things in Birkenhead, and just the way she was taught about the area and the people, we can really relate to it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it's an investigative piece.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I know I've repeated it, but Andy hasn't heard this.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and she goes through the whole thing, it's about 30 minutes each episode, so it's not a big investment.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: You can pick it up and put it down, and she talks about the whole case, obviously, the guy get going down for it and then being released.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it is brilliant the way she puts it across.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: It was so good.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna contact her and tell her how good she was.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: So you'd love her the beast of Birkenhead.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, we digress.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: So Alan and Evans basically entered this system around this time when people were still up in arms, their appeals failed, and the home secretary refused clemency.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Execution date was set for the 13th of August, like I said.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: Peter Allen was only 21 and Gwynne Evans was 24.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Alan reportedly became extremely distressed uh during his final visit with his wife and um injured his thump during the encounter.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe punched a wall or something.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Apparently, he just didn't handle the whole thing.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously they were found guilty, but imagine if you were innocent, you would be in a state.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um anyway, 8 a.m.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: precisely both hang-ins took place.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: And both men were pronounced dead within minutes.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, less than a year later, Parliament passed the uh abolition of the death penalty act in 1965, and executions for murder were immediately suspended, and then suspension obviously became permanent from then on.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: So they were, without knowing it, the last people to be executed in Great Britain.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how I feel about it.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: At 21, if I think of how I was at 21, and I was still making really bad decisions.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not talking killing somebody, I wasn't brought up that way, but if you think about people who might have been brought up a certain way who've known no different, you know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: We we've known people, we've seen people, we've heard of people, you know, dragged up maybe.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or maybe they've just fallen into the wrong group of friends.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: And at 21, are you really mature enough to you know of course you're totally in charge of decisions, but without a fully formed brain, should you really be going down um for the death penalty?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's difficult, isn't it?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: You got all offsess about the fact that they went they went to town on some poor fella with a shovel and a knife.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, absolutely.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: If that was my if that was Jim, I I I would do it myself.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'd pull the trigger, pull the noose, whatever.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's not like they've robbed the Mars bar from the sweet shop or something, is it?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: They've like no probably tortured this for poor fella to death.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I I don't know what I what I don't know where I sit on capital punishments.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I wouldn't be sorry if it came back in for certain types of murders, you know, like where like someone had murdered the kids or something, or or like that beheading in in London and every sort of happen.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: When there's no doubt, yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: You've been caught red-handed, or there's kids like you say, or whatever, there's proof and it's something like that.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and science has moved on to be able to like, you know, make supposedly make evidence safer to I don't know when uh if it came back for certain things like that, I I I wouldn't be like, I wouldn't be eating it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, not that.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Gotta be honest, like I'm sorry, like if if you I think for certain things, certain things are unforgivable.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's a lot of pro-lifers out there, but then you know what about the person, the life that they took?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you don't agree, you know, life for a life and all that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um but at the end of the day, they're gonna be locked up for a very long time.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: The freedom is taken away.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: Some of these people are on death over years, um, and you know, and then their life is removed.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what else would you rather them have?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh would you rather me torture them?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'd quite happily do that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: Quite happily.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: I I I know that's really cool and hard, but you know, if if there's a piece of file who's been caught doing really bad Bad things to children.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Just give me an hour with them in a room.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't need to know what I've done.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: But they will never ever do it again.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Never.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: They'll still be alive, but they'll never do it again.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'll fuck their mind up.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: I would quite happily torture somebody.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh could I push the button on somebody's life?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's different.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: You might all think I'm more evil for wanting to torture somebody rather than push the button and said quick.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I I would put myself forward, happily do the job for you all.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm experienced.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's on my CV.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'll do that public service for you.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: But whether it's actually kills somebody, I don't know.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because you've got to live with that, that life you've taken.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Whether in your mind it's right, whether the court, the law have said this should happen, you have still got to go to bed every single night knowing that you've extinguished that light.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's what blows me right about like it's gone more, but isn't it like being in a war or something where it's like if you don't kill them, they're gonna kill you, you know what I mean?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it, it's it's it's a lot to deal with, innit?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, is that another thing why I didn't join the REF?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to be an engineer, so would I I wouldn't be in hand-to-hand combat or anything like that, but when I went through the attitude test, passed it, and I could do anything I wanted to do if I wanted to, but when they said what it would involve and going to the front line and you'd see combat maybe and be fully involved in it, it just occurred to me the first time at 18 that you know there's innocent people like us who are putting ourselves forward for military service, and you might have to kill somebody on the opposite side who's just made the same decision as you've got kids at home and all that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I could die, they could pull the trigger on me, they could blow me plane up or whatever.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it just all came in that one moment sitting in the warrant officer's office in the fucking um recruitment agency, and I was like, I'm gonna have to think about this.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I don't think I could I could pull the trigger or push the button, but I could torture uh especially paedophiles.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: They don't deserve to die, they deserve to be tortured and maimed here and everywhere for life.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you never they can never be cured.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: I had a friend who was married to a psychologist who worked with paedophiles, and we went out for a drink one night, and he was a nice guy, and we had a little conversation, and he believed that um paedophiles could be rehabilitated, and it was he was working with paedophiles, and I said, You know what?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: I doff me cap, I just don't know how I feel about you now.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I'd had a few to drink, and I wasn't being audible, and he said, I know I get that a lot.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: He understood, yeah, I get that a lot.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: He said, but I believe everybody stands a chance.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I well, what about the kids though that it that that person abused?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: What about their chance that these that person's removed mate?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that person doesn't get a second chance.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Why does he get a second chance?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: So um, and I I don't know, I couldn't look at him in the same way again, and I I I'm never gonna see it again.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really sorry about that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: It just and I shouldn't have judged, but it just got me in a way.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, why are you giving these guys a chance?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: I just couldn't get around it, and Jim and I talked about it and he felt the same.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: But somebody's got to do the job, haven't they?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: If the system says that these guys go to prison and they need counselling and therapy, somebody's got to give that service, so and he did it.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: But he did believe that he could be rehabilitated, and I'm like, Why I'd like that arty.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Once you've done that, you didn't deserve to be rehabilitated.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: You deserve to be put in a room for 23 hours a day and brought out into another room with a little fucking window, the little thing of sunshine, with like hints of what you could have if you were a fucking perverse.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I get to have your soapbox.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's a I'd feel very strong.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Walk off.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: This might be a really good um torture for paedophiles, though, because I wouldn't bat an eyelid.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'd laugh my way through it.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well has he's gonna be Nazi in a minute.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Right, so I'm gonna leave those on this to other than this to me, and I'm gonna move on.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: But it's got thought-provoking stuff.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right, I'm gonna do a diagli.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: You're not expecting this.
• 26:25
  unknown: No.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um in my oh god, episode, my episode of it with Sissy 141.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: I talked about Donkey Kong and Mario.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: There was uh a story around it, which I won't tell now because you haven't seen the episode.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I brought up that um when they were first created, and um the little handheld games and stuff that I used to get.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it was around 1981, something like that, and uh I got for my Christmas present a handheld game, and it was a Space Invader.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: The year after that I got um a Pac-Man.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: The year after that I got a donke Donkey Kong, and then I got another one that I can't remember.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I've still got them, and they still work.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Can you see?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: 1981.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: It still works.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: So the ghosts are gonna get me now.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna move towards a ghost so you can hear it.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: I can't believe it still works though.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, ghost, get me.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Why isn't the ghost getting me?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: So that's Munchman.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: So Munch Man still works.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Can't believe it.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: So point that towards a camera.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh look.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's all still working.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, moving it across.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, do you need to PlayStation PlayStation car?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know, yeah.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: But these like so you've got like a yealty space invaders.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: So this one.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: So this one this one still works.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think you can see that.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: Can you see that?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like a dinosaur, and you have to make your way up to the dinosaur and steal it eggs, basically.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's alright.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that one.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, you were on before.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: You see ya?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's still on.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: So you can see it's all still working.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's 1980.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's mad, isn't it?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, that's well, a lot are very old.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Just move my mic.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: So got like a front room full of newspapers going back almost five years as well.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I might do.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, do you know what?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't really hoard things.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: I keep things that mean things to me.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: And um my mum and dad got me those when I was little.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, yeah, I haven't got loads of things for my child, does you know if he knows?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't got many photos, right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so the few things I have got, I want to keep them because I literally haven't got much at all for when I was little.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: So now they're they're staying with me now.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: And um, if our kids want them, you know, I'll pass them down.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Might be worth a few quid in the future, you know.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: I actually priced up the yellow munchman, Pac-Man.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think that was going for about 55 quid at the moment in work and order, which it is.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm not gonna sell them.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't, it's like it's part of my history and it's meant my memories.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: If it was like a few grands, it might be a bit like you know what.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Antique roadshow 2100.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a fucking nice holiday out of that, you know what I mean.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, holiday or keeping me prize possessions from when I was a child.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh right then, so I'm gonna hand over to you because apparently you've got a thing.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: Another thing.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a thing.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's my it's my segment segment to do with um sort of secret societies, bizarre clubs.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: I liked the Pokemon that he's in last time.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this one I've got.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of the Macaroni Club?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, it kind of ties in with like the theme of our of the podcast and stuff in a sense.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, the Macaroni Club.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's a famous American song, Yankee Doodle.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: You might have heard it, the lyrics go like this Yankee Doodle went to town riding on a pony, stuck a feather in his cap and called it macaroni.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the familiar patriotic tune was apparently, in fact, created by the British to mock the Americans during the War of Independence.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: The joke being that the American colonists were considered so unsophisticated that by merely sticking a feather in one's hat they thought they can could they could consider themselves fashionable, or as the English would say, macaroni.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So to me and you, macaroni is something you associate with cheesy pastor, isn't it?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: But the term was once so embedded in British society that the verbal seal of approval for all things in vogue was to describe them as very macaroni, like an 18th century version of hipster.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, so it was a buzzword of your used to describe a stylish fellow who paid attention to his appearance and dressed in an embellished androgynous style.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, like a bit bowy.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, be all right.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the macaroni look got its name at the time from the rising excitement around Italian pasta, which was a then novel and exotic delicacy being brought back to England by aristocratic young men returning from their grand halls of Europe.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: The underlying inference was that these dapper gentlemen who had developed a taste for the tube shape pasta on their voyages were said to belong to the Maharoni Club, a subculture of worldliness, superior style, sophistication, enlightenment, a precursor to the 19th century dandy.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the world wasn't ready for the macaroni, and the short-lived fashion subculture would swiftly fall victim to stereotype and disappear into the shadows of polite society.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because if man, if a man showed just a little too much enthusiasm for fashion or interest in effeminate bourgeois excess, he was of course ripe for ridicule.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love the word dandy then.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's boss, isn't it?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Britain was at war with France at the time, couldn't import silk, so they'd sit they'd smuggle some in to make lace ruffles, lace ruffles explode from contrasting cuffs and collars of French silk coats with swept back to expose the most delicately embroidered waistcoats and so on and so forth.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: The macaroni might also follow a vigorous beauty regime, sporting rouged lips and cheeks, pox patches, powdered wigs, and bejewelled fingers were painted and manicured nails, as was the fashion in France by both male and female courtiers.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Entirely for display, part male, part female.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: This was the world of the decorated peacock.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: The 18th century drag artist meets rock star, strutting as stuff on the catwalk of life.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, it was like a sort of subculture, like a a bit like a society, if you like, where it was, you know, some of like the wigs and that was weird, and some of the wigs that they used to have were like over a metre high.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: A metre high wig?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: So was that a status thing?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: The higher your wig, the more money you've got, or more posh you are.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but they were um like Marge Simpson.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: A bit.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: So these guys then they're like dandies, but their precursors were called macaronies.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Macaronis.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so they liked fine clothes, silks, they looked after themselves, wore a bit of makeup, a bit androgynous.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: Were they known to be gay or straight, or was it never questioned?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is it sort of an unspoken?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't really no from what I read, it wasn't like oh, it was just you know, it was it was like one kind of like no, it was just I think it was just like source of there was men in general who just like were like they wanted to just dress nice and that was their style.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna like yeah, just gonna go for it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: I suppose through all eras, there's people that break the moulds that don't dress and conform, you know, the way everybody else does does now.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe that was just their way of being alternative.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: We have alternative people now.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, maybe that was just their way of being about alternative.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: I quite like it when men look after themselves like that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I I like androgynous near Bowie.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um you got it from.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, maybe.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: But I I think I prefer the word dandy.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Dandy's a boss, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: I just love it.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: Macaroni, yeah, it's you know, if it says in an accent, not a scouse accent like ours, macaroni.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: But dandy, I don't know, it's just nice, innit?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: Great's very good.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't know anything about that.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't either.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you knew about like dandies and that, like, you know what I mean?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I didn't know there was macaronies before.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that and that and the tune Yankee Doodle Dandy, yeah.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very good.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much for that.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome, you know.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows what who knows what the next episode is.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this is it, isn't it?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to go on for the next one.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: Curiouser and curiouser.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right, so I am gonna have a little discussion.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I've got loads of notes, but you can dib in whenever you want.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, go on.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is something that you've seen.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, possibly uh Sarah might be involved in it occasionally, I think.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I have been involved in it as well.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: Edgeplay.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: But not as good, it's not boring.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna look into it a bit more deeply.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: So why do some people want to like you know, dance on the edge of like fear and all that kind of thing?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Why do people do it and what's it all about?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: If you had to talk about tell people what edge play was, could you say in a short sentence what edge play was?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well I've actually just thought I I thought what edge play was, and I was on thinking.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: You don't know what edge is.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is edge play the same as edge?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right, okay.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you're telling me that Sarah likes to edge.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was just saying it was like I've heard of both edge and on edge players, so is that the same thing, wouldn't it?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: So edge play in a BDSM context.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it's people that like to push to the more extreme sides of BDSM.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't say that you would want to do it, you've heard about it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely not edging, I'm sorry, it's nothing sexy.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: And Drew, edge play means different things to different people depending on where you are on your journey.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're at the very, very beginning of your journey and you've been used to like, you know, fluffy handcuffs and tie-in tees, if somebody brought a cane house and whacked you over the arse, that could be classed as edge play to them because it's really pushing them to the edges of their boundary, which is what edge play is.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, then for somebody else who's like really, really, really ex experienced, edge play, trigger warning, could be hammering a six-inch nail through their boob into a piece of wood, which I've seen.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's a different extreme.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, edge play, you can't give one definition, it means different things are different people depending on where they are.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: But think about it in that way, in that you're pushing yourself to the edges of your boundary.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: But where's that sit with consent?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: You're still consent in exactly the same way.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So you're not pushing a boundary over, you're pushing up to it.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but if you're like so that first analogy used where it was like, you know, oh like you just use like, you know.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Tie and cheese.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, and fucking fluffy cuffs, and then someone trolls you over the arse with a cane.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's slightly different to getting a nail driven through your teeth.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where does that sit?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: But this is the thing is like, where does that sit?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because like, surely then, like, you you just be you know, it'd be like, so it if I cut your arm off, like, would that be a bit too much?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or do you know what I'm saying?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I do know, I do know, and I actually spoke to this girl um and her top just before they were gonna do it because I was really interested.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: I I was interested in why and what the discussion was around it.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, this particular person, the female who was gonna have this done, she'd done loads and loads and loads of different types of edge play, and she was a pain slut.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: I can't say what her scene name is, just in case she doesn't want me to say all this, but pain was in her scene name.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she was an extreme masochist, yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: Extreme.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: She rode on those hormones that you get from really extreme pain, basically.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so she wanted to experience this thing.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: She'd seen and heard of it elsewhere.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: She'd had nipples pierced in the past and stuff.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: And the guy who was going to do it had been a partner for a long time, very trusting relationship.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: They discussed it a lot.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, what type of nail to like reduce infection and all that, and everything.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so I was quite impressed with you know the consent.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: It was the why.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, there surely must be other ways that don't like damage you in this way.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: So she said it wasn't just the pain and the hormones, it was pushing herself to the edges to see how far she could push herself.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, anybody else out there, they might do a parachute jump or you know a rock climb to see how far they can push herself.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: She did this instead.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: This was her adrenaline rush.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: Very extreme.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Very it's not something I would do to somebody, I wouldn't want to do that to somebody's, it's not an adjust to be interested in, but it was to them, and you know, your king's not my king, but your king's okay.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: So edge play is pushing yourself to the edges of your boundaries but not beyond, and you talk about it beforehand, you can send for it and you push.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it might be that that boundary pushes even further, then the more you go, but communicating is obviously very, very important with all of this.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: So edge isn't a fixed place, edge can move the more you get into your journey.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: So all you are thinking it is nails through boobs, it's not edge play.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Can start with caning if that's what is extreme to you, and it moves with your boundaries as you go on your journey.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: Make sense?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so why would anybody deliberately choose to explore experiences that make them nervous, frightened, vulnerable, emotionally overwhelmed?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it lies the answer to that leap lies deep in the human psyche, in the psychology.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because of course, that's where it all starts, isn't it?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Humans have always been attracted to danger.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Always, it's in us.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: We you you you see it everywhere.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, like I said before, parachute jumping and climbing mountains, roller coasters, and all that kind of thing, yeah.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: And when psychologists have studied like sensation seeking behaviour, they repeatedly find that many people enjoy experiences that create intense emotional or psychological responses while remaining within the framework of perceived safety.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: Let's break that down.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: So you're in a dungeon with a very trusting partner, you've exchanged what you want to do, you've consented.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: So you're within the framework of perceived safety, and within that framework, you feel safe enough to push your boundaries and create intense emotional and psychological experiences because you know you're in a safe arena, you know the person will stop, you know you've gotten out, and you're prepared to push yourself because you feel safe enough to do so.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Discourse.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: So also the brain doesn't always distinguish between fear and excitement, and I've discussed this before with Barry, and he didn't get it at all because Barry hates horror movies and everything, he just doesn't get it.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: And because both trigger very similar psychological responses, heart rate increases, breathing changes, adrenaline surges, and the body becomes really intensely focused on what's happening in that moment.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: Everything else around you disappears, it's only what's happening in that moment, and people chase that.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it's common for people when they've been frightened, really frightened, to want to have sex with the partner afterwards or something.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: They get like this horn as well because the hormones are so so so similar.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so for people into BDSM edge play, they want to create these similar experiences, they want to simulate it by not jumping out of planes and roller coasters, they do it through sensation, mind fuckery, and placing themselves in a perceived dangerous position.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: And researchers have found repeatedly something quite surprising that contrary to popular stereotypes, people that practice this don't generally appear uh do not appear more psychologically damaged.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a real misconception that people like me have got bad childhoods or they've been abused or something has happened to them to make them this way.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, no, that is not the case at all.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the BDSM community represents a general community, and there's just as many people in our community that might have been abused or whatever in the outside world.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: However, the same psychologists found that those that have got trauma may use BDSM as a means of dealing with the trauma and facing the trauma, and that could lead them to push them to edge play, CNC, which is consensual non-consensual kink.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh, it isn't just sexual assault simulated.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: I've talked about it before, it can be all sorts of different things.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's basically consenting for something before weeks sometimes before it happens, and part of that consent is I'm gonna do this thing to you.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna consent for it now, but we're not gonna tell you when it is, and they spring it on them.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's this like element of surprise, it happens in the club.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, people that we know do CNC.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've I just never even I just never thought of it broke down like the way so I use it.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so CNC is used by some people who've been victims of trauma to face the trauma head on.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't get it myself because I've not been um thank god, I've not experienced that kind of trauma.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I can't ever understand it, but some people do.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: Some people go to counsellor and they face it in that way by bringing it out in the open and facing it.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: Other people actually want to experience something similar because then they feel in control of the situation that they didn't feel in control of before.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's reclaiming control of a situation that really wasn't.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, obviously, they negotiate, they establish boundaries, they talk about the fears and the limits, and and they have a lot of conversations before they do this and before they even enter any kind of edge play.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Communication is key, all the sign of BDS Emperor, especially with this.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's a perceived greater risk, so a lot more planning needs to occur.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'd imagine.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the strongest attractions is the intensity because modern life can be a bit numbing sometimes.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: The daily grind of you know, you get up, you get washed, you get dressed, you go to work, you might have a pint or whatever, watch telly.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you might throw a few little things in there to change things up, but you know, life you go through the motions, don't you?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, you have your nice times, but it's still just life.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so some people crave something outside of the everyday, they want something the exact opposite to numbing and mundane, they want to feel intensely alive and actually pushing themselves to the very edges.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: It can come, it can create this thing we often call a subspace.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: You might have heard a subspace.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes, and some people say it makes colours seem brighter, noises louder, sensations feel stronger, and time appears to slow down.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so they're experiencing this alternative worlds, if you like, from what the everyday grind, by pushing the limits and allowing all this to happen, they're escaping, they feel liberated from the everyday grind.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, this intensity is something that a lot of people push for in edge play.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we can talk about the hormones, we've talked about it loads.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: I won't.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: We've talked about it a lot.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: You all should know it by now.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know about all the hormones releasing BDSM?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure you do.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: Don't you I'm just gonna say your name number.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's it's all kinds of there's all kinds, isn't it?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Probably every kind of like you know, feeling you're gonna get, isn't it?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we have um dopamine, yeah, associated with anticipation and reward.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um we have adrenaline, obviously, flece, freeze, all that kind of thing.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: Oxytocin is often linked with like love and emotion, but it can also be linked with bonding and trust.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: So if you feel a bond with somebody and that trust, your body feels safe and it lets down this oxytocin.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's all sorts, and with all these things combined, it's quite uh a cocktail for some, and they like to ride it.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then we come to fear.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: These are all the reasons why people like edge play.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: So fear is one of them, and this is where it becomes interesting, really, because we all avoid fear, yeah, don't we?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_03: We don't put ourselves in positions that make us fearful of for our lives or our children's lives or whatever.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: And edge play often involves carefully approaching that.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of the most uh powerful emotions we can have, so we've got to be very, very careful with it.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, gotta consent for it a lot.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: But when it is experienced consensually in this controlled environment, some people find it exhilarating.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, like I said before about horror films and people or in favour situations, they might go home and want to have sex with the partner.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's because if you're very, very, very, very afraid, all those hormones I've talked about before, they come in abundance, like a huge abundance, and the relief that actually you weren't in danger.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: You just want to go to your partner and hug them, and one thing leads to another because you know you're horny as fuck now.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you can sort of see why people are pushing themselves a little bit.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just psychology, it's not just facing past trauma, it's all also riding this fucking roller coaster man.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's interesting stuff.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and some practitioners say that it's a way of exploring aspects of themselves that they don't normally express, and it doesn't necessarily mean trauma either.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: People say it can be quite cathartic when they're exploring and on their on this journey.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: They can often find themselves crying, laughing, shaking, and feeling like really emotionally lighter afterwards because they've faced a fear and they've survived afterwards.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: So, in this controlled environment, they've genuinely felt actually.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: I know I've consented with this, but am I alone here?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: Is there somebody else in the room?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because I can hear other footsteps assimilating this fear.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: They've pushed themselves to that brink, the brain actually feels really afraid.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so they they do feel like there's this release emotionally lighter afterwards.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: I've had people break down after a scene because they feel so much relief, it's it's really amazing to see actually.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: And these emotional releases um they're often chased in other professions, yeah.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Military training, extreme sports, they're pushing themselves to the edge of what their body can achieve to the point of breaking their brain.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, when they're doing um military training, the people that are taking them the the the military, the sport side of it, the drill sergeants, they're cunts, they're breaking them.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: Similar sort of thing, but when they achieve at the end of it, they shake the fucking hand.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for that.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: You've broken me, but I feel so much better afterwards.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: So all of this now doesn't seem quite so weird.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're just in we're just doing it in a different way.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're implementing it in a different way.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Adrenaline's a mad sensation though, isn't it?
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: You just feel like you're ripper off the ground when you you're full of adrenaline.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we know people have lifted cars on their own to release somebody because they've been so afraid of whoever under the the wheel of the car dying.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: They found a strength from somewhere.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a it's a nut sensation.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like our bodies are amazing, really, aren't they?
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when um when we need to be, yeah.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: So the uh the most fascinating thing about edge play is what it reveals about the human nature, similar to what we just said.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: We often think people seek comfort, and we do, we generally do, but we also seek challenge, yeah.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: We seek novelty, intensity, experiences that make us feel present, that make us feel alive in the mundane.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: This makes us feel alive, it takes us out of those armchairs and climbing those mountains and all that, all of this makes us feel alive.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's just mad, isn't it?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: That you know, the same species that avoid danger some of us actually seek it out as well.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: Thrill seekers.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're very complicated, really, aren't we?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: We are very complicated, and BDSM brings that to the forefront, and you know, I've seen it, you know, all of my career, and people do not cease to amaze me and how far they'll push themselves to feel that exhilaration of feeling alive, mad in it.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is mad multi-interesting love.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is very interesting.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: I myself are into pushing myself into edge play.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: How far have I actually pushed myself?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have to push myself to get out of bed.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's most people, isn't it?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: Especially after the weekend, mate.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's my edge play.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: You're on the sauce on Sunday, weren't you?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: You're still feeling a bit today.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, getting old.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Worth it though, innit?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the most extreme thing I've experienced um is probably really, really severe impact with like one of their nutsticks or something.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the most extreme things I've done to somebody else, I've done a lot, fucking hell, but is is hitting somebody with Lucille.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the barbed wire batten.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to be so careful with it.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: And we we talked about it a lot before, and uh it hooks into your skin and everything, you know.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then the girl at C in uh The Walking Dead where Lucille was used to beat somebody's head in.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and she's trusting me.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: She's trusting me.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, and she was hung upside down by her feet while I was doing this, spinning round, and there it's mad.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's how far I've pushed it, and I've seen people push it way further, way outside my comfort zones at home, things that I wouldn't entertain.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that's also what you've all got to you know take on board.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, somebody might want you to push them really, really far.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're not comfortable doing it, don't do it.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna say a little story, and um it's sort of I'll I'll this is not anything I want anyone to do, and I it should come with a big don't try us at home, but I want to tell it because it sort of proves how far somebody will go.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I was a professional dominatrix and I was only about three years in, and somebody contacted me who was an engineer, and they had designed um a gallows with a drop floor and a means of simulating a hanging but not actually choking and breathing the N giant and they wanted me to be the hangman?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: No, I want the Johnny Of course I didn't do it, but you know when somebody intrigues you and I was back and forward email and it was more like why and how are you gonna do this with a zero risk you can't?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you expect me to take on that risk and possibly really damage you and go to jail if there's not enough money in the world?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: Where is your head at to want to put your life at risk like that?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, and the person was answering the questions, but uh no matter what the answers would be, I'd still be a no.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: But they weren't answering the questions well enough for me to ever say yes.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: So they went away.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: But the real shocking thing is there's somebody out there who would say yeah.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: There would be, yeah.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: For the right amount of money.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: For the right amount of money, somebody will say, Yeah, I'll do that.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'll do that, no problem at all.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because that sounds to me like if something went wrong, you'd be dead.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, mate, it was a drop.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't a simulated little like this was a drop.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not, I'm not taking that.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: Breaking your neck, you know, and you've got the the cricoid here, I think it's called.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's cricoid, and you press it when you have like a tube down your throat, intubation, and it sort of flattens that tube out.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's a cartilage.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: And my dad always said when I was younger, um, if ceremony attacks, don't kick them the balls, punch them in the cricoid because it spasms, you can't do nothing.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: What if they caught that?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: It went into spasm and they couldn't breathe.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I as as I say, like the the the it wouldn't be me, he'd be saying, yeah, that is absolutely not a cartonal chance I'd do that.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: So something went wrong.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: That is a very extreme example of edge play, like the most extreme I've ever encountered in my career.
• 57:38
  unknown: Yeah.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I said no, obviously.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have been involved in other edge play scenes that I won't talk about now, just because we haven't got time.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I had to think real hard, you know, if I want to be part of this, this could cause trauma or whatever, you know, and we had to do a lot of chat over it.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and most of the time when I've done it, I've done it with another top.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to do it on my own.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to share the responsibility, not in case something went wrong, but bounce off each other.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_03: Are we doing the right thing here?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, making sure that we were okay to take part in this.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: All of us before we got involved, you know.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I never put myself in positions that made me question my integrity or that I felt was genuinely dangerous.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: The things that I was worried about was what state the sub would be in afterwards, and that was what I had to be okay with before I went ahead with it.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: Basically.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's all very responsible stuff, edge play.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: And potentially really dangerous, you know.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think anybody should be doing edge play if you're new or with a stranger in a club with somebody you haven't met before.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's something that you need to do with someone that you really, really, really, really trust.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: Really trust.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's oh it's not for me.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: Not for me either.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: So there you go.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: Edge play.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not edging.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely not edging.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: I do like a bit of edging.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: We do we edge all the time.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because you splooge at the end of it's just enormous.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's why we have four hour shags.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're pump, pump, pump, squares if you're lucky.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, yeah.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: Can't be doing that.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right then, so we're gonna finish on a fetish factoid.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: The muffin man.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: I thought you were gonna say Mac Muffin Man then.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh Mac Muffin.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: That would have been a good one, that.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: Last one was it Le Muffin Man?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: L Muffin Man.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: L Muffin Man, that's what it tells you.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: So do you know what the butter churner is?
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: I am sure I heard this come up in conversation, you know, but like I've heard this come up in conversation, like I don't know how recently, but the butter churner, it's it's well known in uh in gay land, but men do this quite a lot.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um but men and women do it as well.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it's basically when the bottom is lying back with the legs right back, at least one leg right back.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: So and the light needs to be quite back as well.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: So the bum's in the air, and then the top, they can grab a leg like that, and enter from above.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: So they're crouching over and entering from above, right?
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_03: And they're holding the leg because it's like a bus a churner, and they pump up and down like that, like a bus a churner with a leg.
• 1:00:37
  unknown: Fuck off.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: So they're coming in like that.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: You don't found to that too athletic for you.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's like with like like that like on the last one, wasn't it?
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like there's just there's just like I'm not saying like you know, like oh we're only doing one position.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm gonna say just missionary all day long for you, isn't it?
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you all love jump on top, it's too much effort.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there's just like somewhere you think that just doesn't have seem like a lot of effort like it.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I think it's like, oh yeah, I've done this, but apparently gay men love this.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't just I'm sure I heard it get mentioned in conversation and I cannot and I cannot remember what it was.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there you go.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not for you, it's too athletic.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_03: You fall over anyway, you're back.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: You'd give it a go like that, Timber!
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't got the fucking balance.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: Balance, energy, impetus.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't want to.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just I I definitely don't think I've got the balance for it.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd I'd literally be like fucking the end of a game of Twister.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: When we have our house party, I might get twisted out.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Twister is good, like, but I don't know about at my age.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: Your age?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: Fuck off.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: If I do it, you do it, because we're the same age.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give it a go.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give it a go.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: So talking about that, I did something really, really silly.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_03: Did you get onto it?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_03: In our group, our party group?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: My little parting story before we go.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I was posting a reel on Facebook, a podcast reel.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd copied and pasted what I'd wrote on Instagram to put on Facebook.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: In between times, I must have been sidetracked.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: I know exactly what I did now, just realised.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: I was typing a message to Barbarella.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: I copied and pasted the message because the same message was just going to go to another person because I was writing them both to me Parsi.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I cut and paste my Parsi invite on Facebook for everyone to see by accident.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_03: My party tea sales, right?
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it said there's about 30 people coming, they're all dead sound, right?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's gonna be booze, can of cake, weed's okay, no hard drugs though.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: The full party tea is but out for a good 10 minutes, and it was um Carlos in our group who screenshot it and went, uh Vic, I don't know if that's supposed to be all over Facebook, right?
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_03: Fuck but Andy, it wasn't on my own Facebook, it was on the pad itself.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_03: Facebook with 155,000 people on it.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I'd be like that.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen that documentary on Netflix?
• 1:03:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: About like with this party in Holland where the girl put an address on Facebook, and I'm thinking driving from all over Holland to go to this old party.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that would have been me.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I took it down straight away, and loads of people have read it and laughed at it, and I'm like, oh, I missed that.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thank God for that.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_03: Fucking hell.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: Party tea sales are like, you know, there's gonna be food, karaoke, all that on there.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: Come down, join with a karaoke can key.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: Have a split, have a drink.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_03: Just don't bring in hard drugs so they don't do it.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_03: If you bring the hog roast, you're more than well.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'll bring the crusty rebels and the sauce, you bring the hog.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, fucking drop the bollock there.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: Quickly to Lisa Day.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine it.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, but I mean, good job, there's not an else on there.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_03: Not there was a being, you know, but imagine if there's like other details on there.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_03: So on that party bombshell.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have swinging parties in our house.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I know what I mean.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if you did it in that or something.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know, yeah, imagine.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing else.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: So on that party bombshell, we're gonna go.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for joining us, everybody.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: I really enjoyed that.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hope you enjoyed that.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_03: Really enjoyed your story as well.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're not a bit like the macaroni club.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: The macaroni.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: So if you've binge watching, pop the cattle on the CN5.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_03: If not, we'll see you next week.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_02: See you soon.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_03: And there we have it! Another day made better by listening to the creators of chaos.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for dropping by, and if you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate you sharing your love, the Panthercell Podcast, with your friends.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to give us a follow on our socials, maybe leave us some five-star reviews, and feel free to send us an email to magic at the pattercellpodcast.co.uk, or even interrupt us on Facebook because we love chat and studio.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_03: Be sure to stop by next week because, as Mowie says, I don't know where I'm going next, but I promise it will be boring.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: Catch you soon.