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The Rings of Power Season 2: The Verdict · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm
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  an author and I run the Centre and today I'm joined by my frequent podcast pal, J.
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  of Renika. If those of you are watching this on YouTube we'll see that he's in the sunshine
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  and I'm in the dark, which gives you the clue that he is, I've been in America, so J.
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  of welcome. We've been waiting to do our joint review, having watched the second season
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  of the Rings of Power and just so you know folks where we're going on this, we thought
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  we would deal quite quickly with the sort of production values side of it because this
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  is quite similar to the previous season, they haven't done vast changes of style and
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  tone in that way. So we'll just hit those points quickly and then we'll move on to the
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  meat of it, you know, what they done with the story structure and then we'll look at how
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  it relates to the Tolkien source material and then we'll look at the characters particularly
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  thinking about those which are in the canon or in the talking world and those which are
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  made up for purposes that they are fulfilling in the story and then we'll end up by giving it
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  our rating out of 10 rings, which I'm justifying as the nine rings plus that one to be made
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  because I thought how much of you add them all up, it's sort of somewhere in the teens isn't it
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  and that didn't work out as a rating, so we'll go with 10. Right, so Jacob, first of all,
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  what did you make of seasons to production values? All those people beavering away in the background
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  building armour and sets and costumes and special effects? How did you find all of that?
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  It's yeah, they're not wanting for funding for these for these projects, so the sets,
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  everything was beautiful. I, yeah, there was in terms of like overall protection, phenomenal,
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  again, like the practical sets, right? You know, Celebrimbor is a furnace,
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  you know, kind of workshop area that got a lot of a lot of screen time this time. For me,
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  like you could tell the practical nature of the set as kind of being a lived in, especially when he
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  towards the end, kind of the spending so much more time just there and by himself and it almost,
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  it actually becomes a character in, you know, episode seven or so or eight that this space itself,
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  so yeah, they've clearly put an awful lot of time into that. That was one of the, yeah,
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  I think that the sets where they put the most love into and they have so physical production,
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  yeah, phenomenal, costuming weapons. You saw perhaps more weapons on the, the elf side and the
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  dwarf side than we saw before by nature of the events that were happening. So yeah, the,
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  so weaponry again, like it's something that's easy to compare to other film adaptations of
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  Lord Thurhings and I think that that was one where that where Peter Jackson's films shown was in
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  the, you know, physical tactile weaponry armor and that sort of thing and I thought they did
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  a really good job here. Granted, things look a lot more not quite as lived in. They seem bright
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  her and less tarnished. Whereas some of the Peter Jackson films there was a more, you know,
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  like lived in a grudier even a little bit. I mean, Elven, Elven Akutraman is going to always
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  be shining and sparkling. It has some sort of dirt repellent that I think is, is inherent to
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  wealth, you know, elf clothing and equipment, but overall, yeah, so I think it's definitely brighter,
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  shinier. If you're looking at kind of like Star Wars prequels versus the, you know, like original
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  trilogy and perhaps is so that you kind of have this as a series is taking place before it's a
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  prequel. It's leading up to a more well known story and so I suppose there's something to be said
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  for kind of the shininess brightness, clean, put together nature of it, but and definitely makes
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  it look a little less lived in than just pretty set design. Same thing with new menor, even though
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  it's been there for a while and they want to say that there's statues, right, that are kind of
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  decaying or that have been there for a while. They still look really well maintained. So whoever's
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  maintaining those city streets and new menor like my, my hat is off to them and their crew. I haven't
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  seen them in the background, but they're doing a really knockdown job of scrubbing the walls and
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  keeping everything nice and tidy. How about you, Julia? What did you think of overall like aesthetics
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  of aesthetic? I was just trying to think where the external scenes are in this one.
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  They made a lot of use of some kind of forest, which was used a lot for the external scenes for
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  the battle sequences and what have you. They had the scenes which were in the desert in Roon,
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  but I don't know how much of that is actually a lot of it was on a set as opposed to outside,
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  couple of outside shots, but mainly on a set. And then there were some nice new places like
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  Pelagia and Kidd and Shipwrights, a sort of early version of the Grey Havens.
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  And I thought that, well also, I thought that it didn't feel as much open air because one of the
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  things that you notice in the Lord of the Rings films is you felt like you were outside in
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  middle earth. I didn't feel that as much in this season. Now I come to think of it. We did see much
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  more of Casadum, which was nice. I liked the detail of how they grew their visuals and the lights
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  and the mirrors and all of that. And we saw some more details about other rooms in Numinor,
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  like the sort of the boat docked down in the bottom of the city and that kind of thing.
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  Oh, there was another outside scene there, wasn't there with the sea monster.
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  But on the whole, it felt quite a lot of interiors or forest, so limited vistas.
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  I would say I've got one issue when I'm watching it, which is there never seems to be enough
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  people for crowd scenes. They have a, they have a coronation. So comparing your mind,
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  the coronation of Aragorn and Arwen with the failed coronation of Muriel is basically a number of
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  people gathered in a room. This could be a cost thing. Right. Because even though they got a huge
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  budget, they're obviously doing many more hours than a film. Right. But I didn't wonder if there
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  could not be clever ways of suggesting more people, like noises of crowds must outside. Or the
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  use of the kind of, I don't know if it's still the software, but the massive or the equivalent software
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  which populates digital sets with people. Because I just just don't see it feel as though there
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  is enough people around. And it worries me. It's the same in Casadum, though they did have a,
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  they had a small speech at one point. Oh, there's lots more people there. They could have done
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  an establishing shot with the lots of people. Exactly. So we haven't got the sort of COVID issue
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  anymore. So I don't know why there aren't more people around. If anybody is listening to this,
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  I would just suggest that they get some more supporting actors or use some digital creation.
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  Just to make it feel as though it's middle earth and it's high days because this is on the way
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  out middle earth. It should be feeling there's more and more people coming, not empty vastness.
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  It does feel it does feel like a just post COVID middle earth and new manure where like people
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  are starting to come back to work. They're starting to go out in public. So you have like a
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  meddling because like right. So season one was filming during COVID. So they have like so in
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  Linden in particular, right? It felt like Linden was kind of a ghost town, not only because of
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  the little strange veils that were the shields were wearing on the ship, but because you only
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  had a handful of smattering of people who were quite distanced. But now, yeah, so coming out of that
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  into situations where you can deal with lots of people film wise, it should be, yeah. And if
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  there are constraints, budget wise in terms of like actual actors, I think we're absolutely
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  right. So doing something to be able to suggest. And we did, and you're right, they did that to a
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  degree with the scene with Durin the fourth. Prince Durin, yeah, Prince Durin, who then yeah,
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  gets to be actually during the fourth of the year. But he starts out talking to a small group of
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  people and I understand they're the kind of like movement they're talking to a small group of people
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  to then kind of expand that there are more people that are listening to him give this speech.
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  And then he looks over and he's wondering is this actually going to do any good then he looks out
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  and everyone's kind of like listening with baited breath outside there. So I get that kind of like
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  movement and progression from him personally and like the payoff that oh, he's not this isn't just
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  going to be falling on the ears of 10 people, but there's a whole group that's been inspired by this.
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  And then it is kind of undercut by the revelation that wait, you can't just go out and fight the
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  elves because there's something that's worse that's happening inside. So I feel the trajectory
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  there, but like you're right with with the coronation and even the trial by trial by water,
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  trial by valor sort of thing like it seems like that's a big deal where you're putting the captain
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  of the guard, you know, essentially the public execution possibly that that seems like
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  if new manure is a place that we're going to expect to kind of turn to be kind of like a
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  massive mob mob mob mentality where things are going to be going hill so far and so steeply and
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  so quickly that then the valor have no option but to bury the entire city, then you're going to
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  expect to see more than just a handful of people that are out here just kind of like curious about
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  like well, what do you have on the schedule today? It's like well, there's a trial by valor at 11
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  but I really I have yeah, you know, I got a book club, I'm sorry, a scroll club that we're
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  talking about, you know, Baron and Lothian, it's the really steamy part right now and we're really
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  hoping to get back up. So yeah, like there's it seems yeah that there isn't, you know, have this
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  sense of yeah, of like a fullness of the world, it very much seems like there's, you know,
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  the camera is falling people closely but to suggest even then that's fine, you know, we need
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  close camera work and intimate settings but we also need to see like that this matters not just
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  to the half of, you know, two dozen borders and people that we've seen so far but this is
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  epic in nature, right? The Sauron isn't just enslaving the 30 humans that we've seen, he's on the
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  path of trajectory of enslaving an entire land with thousands, millions, hundreds, thousands,
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  millions of people. I don't want to labor this point and we'll just just make one more thing on
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  this so the people who escape to Rivendell compare the way that's filmed to the people escaping
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  from Rohan where you suggest a long line of people and you suggest the line goes off out of camera
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  shot and you could do just it doesn't necessarily mean there are more people in the shot it just means
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  you've shot it differently to suggest there are more. That's the what I was actually getting at but
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  they they were quite keen on static proud scenes a bit like they were in the Hobbit at in Lake Town,
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  it was better outside Lake Town but there was often like static scenes of just people in a town
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  square, it felt like there was a lot of town square meetings in this, anyway, never mind, my
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  my vote for strongest costume was Saron as Anatar, I rather liked his snake costume, did you have
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  a favorite costume? Oh boy, I don't know, I do, I mean it's a small detail that I like is
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  an Elrond's armor that you have this kind of wing imagery that on one shoulder also which is
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  in some ways kind of a foil to Anatar's kind of like scaly or at first I was thinking that
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  was kind of almost like pro feathers but you really don't have that it is definitely more
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  kind of serpentine the closer you look but having on one side kind of a serpent and then the
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  other side of bird was Elrond as a tribute to his mother who ultimately turns into a bird
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  and and flies off and so I think that's kind of like a subtle touch there was was nice
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  yeah I think that if you've free-teramed quite a few shots you'd get so much more detail they
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  looking at the sort of supporting making of type productions I haven't seen anything that goes
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  deeply into what the production team are doing I don't know if that's in some kind of specialist
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  release they'll do but I am interested to see the wonderful work because it is so
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  short period of time on screen I know that there'd be much more for me as a talking
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  band to get from that anyway let's move on to the main so basically it still looks great
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  but have a think please about how you do your crowd scenes because it's just falling a bit
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  flat in these amazing settings as far as I'm concerned okay to the meat of it and season one
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  was all over the place and my general feeling is the way they handled the story structure in season
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  two was hugely a huge improvement it was much more coherent however hang on I have broken down
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  when I was preparing for this the number of storylines so keep count Jacob and see if I've missed
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  one I think there is a kind of elves in linden and slash havens which means Gilgallad, Elrond,
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  Galadriel, brief appearance from Kyrdan and they're the three rings the three elven rings
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  that's story number one story number two is the dwarves the two times during
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  plus Deesa and then we got dwarven rings which brings them in relationship to story number three
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  which is Kellebrimble and played by the one four Charles Edwards and Anatar played by the
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  equally wonderful Charlie Vickers and that's obviously sarron and overall ring plot so three strong
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  storylines but we also have pelagia with Theo and Islter and Aronde until he goes somewhere else
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  hanging around at the well basically hanging around and there's a bit of an end story here and
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  a sort of love with a lady from that part and the mysterious disappearance of Bronwyn.
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  Story number five is Numenor where we have Miriel Arfarazon and Elendil and Elendil's daughter
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  and the the faithful that storyline then we have story number six which is Adar and the Ox
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  and looking at it from the point of view of someone trying to help rescue save
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  make a decent life perhaps it's best we're putting that for the orcs the orc
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  and then we've got story number seven which is the stranger who is walking eastwards with Nori and
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  Poppy and teasing whether or not he is Gandalf or not and there is this mysterious dark wizard
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  played by the wonderful but underused Kirin Heinz and also intersects with Tom Bombardil played by
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  Rory what's his name? Kineer Rory Kineer the wonderful Rory Kineer so that I make seven separate
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  storylines of which the first three are the ones which relate most faithfully or closely to the
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  theme of the whole series which is rings of power and my problem is with stories four five six and
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  seven not really connecting the first three connect yeah last three are the last four are
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  tangentially connected and problematic because they might be good stories within themselves
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  and certainly the Numenor story is really important but they still trying to do too much
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  and that's how I felt about it how about you yeah yeah yeah no that's really yeah this is good
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  that yeah for a show called rings of power the the primary movers and chicks like now we actually
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  get you know we got that the creation of the three rings at the very the tail end of season one and
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  then season two is really about the fuller production of rings with Anatar being involved there
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  and so that makes that makes a lot of sense having around there it's clear yeah that so there's
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  other storylines the non direct rings of power those are clearly storylines that are going to be
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  paying off in further season so this is almost you know so I appreciate one of the things that I
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  did appreciate about the kind of long view that you're able to have the Amazon can have when
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  you've already invested and you say like we commit to five seasons oh yes but let me stop you
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  there they haven't they've said they want to do five but season three has only just been green lit
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  yeah and it reminded me a bit of the fantastic beast franchise which said oh yes it's going
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  five films and there's kind of right right right is all that three so I think we're okay at the moment
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  for those who want to see a sort of complete story um because this was a better season and just
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  much more just better to watch than the first one yeah well that's the hazard that's the hope
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  and the hazard that you have of that if you say like hey this is going to five seasons so the
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  temptation is going to be to like string certain things along say like okay we we can afford
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  the time to spend on these kind of ten general lines that if you watch the whole series
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  so let's say we're just going to assume that we're getting five seasons so we can just kind of
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  spread things out and looking at the whole five season instead of looking at individual seasons
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  as kind of like self-contained and being valuable in and of themselves so there's two different
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  ways of thinking right if you're if you're just having to prove your value and then you don't know
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  if you're gonna be renewed the next season that's a different mode of storytelling because you have
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  to have it you have to be able to wrap it up at the end of the season if you find out that the
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  show is going to be canceled you have to have somebody to pivot to be able to wrap it up in a
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  satisfying or relatively satisfying way but so you see as one of the things I think that you see
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  the long term the like the investment that they're making or the assumption that they're going to
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  get five seasons is in these inclusions of right the new manure uh having it just kind of like
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  trailing along the rune everything with the stranger and nori and poppy that's clearly like is
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  just kind of been a little something that's going to be bringing in hopefully at at the end so
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  they're assuming that they're gonna have that time rather than saying okay how do we develop these
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  characters what do we need for a satisfying compelling season in and of itself to be a coherent
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  hole that then also can fit together and build on previous seasons rather than saying okay we have
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  five seasons let's have this plot go all the way through to to the you know from season one to
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  five this one is kind of going in and out here uh there's you know there's there's benefits to
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  that sort of long term storytelling like we see with this the wandering song then season one was
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  just you know kind of like a nice melody and some of their singing but then it actually turns out
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  to be plot critical in season two whereas there was no inkling of it necessarily being plot
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  critical it just seemed to be some traditional song but then they're able to use that as an actual
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  plot point uh in the second season that's something that's a nice luxury to have if you can think if
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  you like it are fairly certain that you're getting a next season you can start seeding things in
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  but then the danger is that you're not paying enough attention to the season that's at hand and
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  making sure that it's a coherent cohesive uh piece of storytelling you get too caught up in the
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  broadness of you know the the big picture this this broad canvas um so it's definitely a dance and
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  if there's there's a lot that you can do if you do have that or feel relatively certain that you
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  have that sort of long time frame but it seemed like you said it was only just greenlit and so if
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  if this turns out to be a you know financial sinkhole for amazon because of viewership or for whatever
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  you know a number of different reasons they're outside that could be outside of their control
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  uh they could have to they might require them to shut it down they might have to financially
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  whatever like they might have to shut that down and if they do then there's going to be all these
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  plot lines are just kind of like dangling and unsatisfying resolutions because you're not focused
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  enough on individual seasons um so that's yeah that's kind of my it's it's kind of it's it's it's
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  it's definitely a two-edged sword having that sort of money behind you where you have the kind of
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  tacit the implication that this is going to go to five but there's then the realities logistical
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  realities that this is a company this is a business and if it's not if they're not turning a profit
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  on it they're going to cut it and so what do you do then with this masterfold you know big picture
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  storytelling when you have to then wrap it up after say three new lessons then you're hoping
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  I think you've done another season one I would be surprised if they did um commission but I
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  think because I've done a better job on season two um maybe it will survive I said well it's
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  going to be another season so right and some of the answers will come along but I think the
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  problem about this long view the 40 to 50 hours worth of material that they're aiming for um you
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  as a weekly experience you get episodes which just don't feel very coherent which
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  you aren't watching it as a great massive box set yeah um and I was saying that the episodes
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  where I thought oh this is a good episode uh episodes five and seven when you look at them
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  they actually basically just stay with my my ring plots yeah more or less and they go and visit
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  the hobbits or proto hobbits you just stay with the dwarves the elves the orcs that are attacking and it
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  works much more like a story that's wound together yeah and what's so frustrating is that the way to
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  make your ambitious plot lines of seven different plot lines work is already there for you to learn
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  which is you go and look at lot of the rings I think how did Tolkien do this because of course
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  his plot line splits up into equal numbers individual stories with little sub stories like
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  um air wind and farm air sort of woven in all sorts of little things going on and how we
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  tell it is is he make sure you know where the center of the story is and one of the problems
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  about season one was you never knew where the center was it was kind of galagial but it kind of
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  wasn't um at least with season two I had a stronger sense actually the center of this story is
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  saaron right and if you follow that logic um it does hang together a bit better but is your
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  anti heroes your bad guy is your villain and the potential heroes the ones you sort of care
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  about and invest in are still divided and scattered and some of them haven't met each other yet
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  so it seems as though the whilst they've got excellent source material to adapt they haven't
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  adapted the storytelling lessons so right the horses gone from that particular stable um but I
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  would have started I wouldn't have started from here is the classic thing you know very different um
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  okay so thinking about the overall structure I think that the way they wound up season two
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  suggests that they were wanting to give it a full stop of a certain kind a yes and so there were
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  more answers given in this series than there was in the last and it wasn't as rushed
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  as the previous season so I felt it was a more exciting last couple of episodes to watch as a result
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  um but this moves us on I'm presuming people listening to a
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  are a verdict on this well already know some of the major answers that are given but um if you
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  don't I would suggest you know maybe some plot spoilers and what we say now because we're going
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  to talk about where it's following what Tolkien suggests is a story and where it's departing
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  and just doing its own little tap dance of a thing um we don't we don't both Jacob and I we don't
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  mind if people leave behind the story if it's a better choice the problem is when it's a worse choice
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  I think is that fair to say that's your yeah he has um and on that note I would say that the
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  completely understandable departure from the law is running the story the story lines not on the
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  timeline provided by Tolkien but concurrently so Numen all happening at the same time as the
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  Kela Brembo story but within that there were some odd diversions from Halking's version of it
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  for example Kela Brembo I'm afraid it is dead he's gone um in a very moving dramatic scene with Saron
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  um but in what we know if I you might be you're the more expert on Tolkien's law than me
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  but I thought Kela Brembo perceived that Saron was who he was when he put on the one ring and there
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  is no sign of the one ring having been there yeah so I think that comes up at the
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  I don't know where it comes up in the council member or something anyway um yeah uh it's it's
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  clearly stated that the one ring was in existence before Kela Brembo dies and that would have
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  it's kind of meant that that ring making the ring is is going to be separate from the relationship
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  with Kela Brembo and that whole moment because that's been destroyed and I don't really get why
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  that's happened no these are good these yeah no that's a great question I think and you know
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  so the yeah the the trouble with uh with the trouble with elves is they live a really long time uh
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  and the trouble with humans is they don't but that's also the gift of Aluvitarre is that they
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  actually don't live for millennia so like yeah so I see the necessity of storytelling to
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  kind of overlap to compress timelines to move certain things so that you're not having a new
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  human cast every season yeah having that turnover there's another king of demonotes to deal with
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  right yes yeah so who's the king this season uh I guess look you know uh game of thrones did
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  did that right so you know with with rapid turnover of you know successive billers but uh but yeah
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  so I get them wanting to you know maintain uh you build investment in uh a core cast of like
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  human characters who aren't interacting with elves and who can both progress whose kind of character
• 30:16
  arcs are on the same or in the same time frame and trying to figure out where okay so how do we need to
• 30:24
  kind of fudge the human timeline to fit in with what's happening with Kela Brembo or in the development
• 30:30
  of the rings with uh the dwarves and cause a doom like what's happening there how do we get everything
• 30:35
  so that we can converge all of these three at the same time and so yeah I understand the
• 30:42
  yeah the necessities of of the storytelling there but it does yeah it um it's it's certainly
• 30:48
  follows a different path and that's where this is the adaptation kind of requires some jiggling
• 30:56
  and juggling yeah it's back to the thing is is it a better choice by doing that yeah yeah
• 31:01
  this one is I'm not sure it's a better choice because there was a lot of um wonderful acting tension
• 31:09
  between Sauron and Kela Brembo yeah do actually say you know here's the master ring and
• 31:16
  there's the one ring you've been had yeah um yeah and yeah that is that's the utter yeah extreme point
• 31:23
  for both characters and it's not gonna be available to them yeah that's a good that's a good thought
• 31:29
  thought experiment what if yeah so so how would that have changed how do you feel Julia that
• 31:34
  would have changed the kind of emotional dynamic that's one of the things that I thought was the most
• 31:38
  you know emotionally kind of compelling uh exchange and relationship was between Kela Brembo and
• 31:44
  Anatar where Anatar is doing this you know in spidious manipulation right where he's you know
• 31:52
  you know leading Kela Brembo to feel that it was you know his fault right kind of shifting the blame
• 31:59
  for putting there this is this is all yeah you did this this is you right right so this is and
• 32:04
  just like keeps like doing that just kind of like subtly and kind of stream that off you know
• 32:08
  meeting after meeting and just looking at that kind of emotional manipulation um uh and then having
• 32:15
  him so with yeah so so what the way that I saw you know the way that kind of plays out without the
• 32:21
  one ring it gave Kela Brembo at least a sense of victory that he got rid of the the nine rings uh
• 32:30
  for for mortals uh and for mortal men and then he's you know he then he's like you're Lord of but
• 32:37
  you know kind of mockingly right like you're you're the Lord of these rings that I've sent out um
• 32:43
  and so he had like he did something heroic that he was dying at least he felt you know I think
• 32:49
  felt like it gave him an emotional way to end not necessarily like redemption but some sort of like
• 32:55
  positive end as opposed to yeah so if he if he's showing the ring at the end so he has hope that like
• 33:02
  okay at least I got rid of these and then Anatar says oh by the way I've also been making this one
• 33:08
  ring that has control over all of them and then dashes everything so like that so that's that's
• 33:13
  the kind of like different so I gave Kela Brembo I think by not doing that it gave Kela Brembo a kind
• 33:17
  of more a sense of like heroic like upward trajectory instead of then like crushing and having more of a
• 33:24
  it was tragic but it was there was at least a positive kind of like at least a light of hope or
• 33:30
  glimmer that he had emotional wise but I don't know I want to hear you so yeah yeah like the
• 33:38
  the answer different from that that's that's more emotionally the other stronger choice
• 33:43
  because I I thought the strongest thing that Kela Brembo said in that scene which I think is
• 33:47
  the best scene in the series um is that and this this goes to the bigger theme is about are these
• 33:57
  rings good or bad so and this is pushing the distrust that Tolkien had of artifacts because he says
• 34:07
  that Lord of the Rings is a quest to get rid of a treasure not to gain it so I can see why they
• 34:13
  had the Elron doubting the power of the ring the dwarves getting more and more greedy over their
• 34:20
  rings even though that's not really necessarily um something I know that sourced in Tolkien's ideas
• 34:26
  but it's a logical extension of some of the things Tolkien feels about treasures but Kela Brembo
• 34:33
  in his um final sort of I think it's not possibly not even the deft scene it's just shortly before
• 34:42
  he says you are the slave of these rings right you think you rule them but you actually you're
• 34:47
  the slave I think it's the conversation before uh you know I've said before um forgive me if I've
• 34:52
  got that slightly wrong but I remember that line I thought that's a really good line so if
• 34:58
  Saron is there saying and aha you know for all of all that you've done has just put all these
• 35:05
  rings under my power because here's the one ring kind of thing but better phrase than that um
• 35:12
  um that the the the the clapback from Kela Brembo is you've just made your own fetter
• 35:18
  there you are you've made your own fetters um because you've put yourself into and it's true
• 35:24
  that is the point of the ring he's in his overreach for power he makes his greatest vulnerability
• 35:32
  and Kela Brembo would be victorious by actually perceiving that and seeing it and himself coming out
• 35:38
  of his own obsession with making treasure and it's very important that he lets them know
• 35:47
  because fian fianno I'm not quite sure how to say his name fino um with the summaries it's all
• 35:54
  about getting them back exactly yep where as Kela Brembo is about exactly letting them go he doesn't
• 36:01
  where oneself um so that's those were the themes I would have
• 36:08
  kind of thought would work so I'm not sure the choices of the handling of the big overall ring
• 36:13
  themes totally satisfactory because of the missing out of the one ring potential but we'll see
• 36:20
  I mean they they've got to now they've done that choice they'll need a new choice about how to
• 36:25
  make sense of its um how it how it arises in its place I thought that one more thing which
• 36:36
  they could have looked at a bit given a bit more time is there was a big thing about Elron
• 36:43
  distrusting the ring the Elven rings these are and the turnaround is in order to save Kela
• 36:51
  drill's life um what about the kiss just sidebar um i think if i can have gagalad drill's life he puts
• 37:01
  it herring on to reverse the effect of evil from them uh a more i think it's from the crown the
• 37:08
  crown of Morgan as a kind of Morgan blade effect on her and it's a huge moment but it isn't quite
• 37:16
  it there wasn't quite enough screen time for him to sort of say yes you know he's compromising
• 37:27
  it's like I'm compromising because I can see that what you're what you've been saying all along is
• 37:33
  that these have a potential for good and bad and right now the potential they have is for good
• 37:39
  doesn't mean they can't also have a potential for for bad which is the story of the Elven rings so
• 37:43
  when Frodo is sort to um i know again comes up again and again in Nord of the rings but
• 37:50
  certainly in our council of Elrons and also a Galadriel it's the idea is what happens when the
• 37:56
  one ring is destroyed um to the other rings and it could be like the the cascading effect that
• 38:05
  everything comes to an end or we were just fed so they are both good and they are also bad
• 38:12
  so i just thought that that scene because it felt as though it was like the culmination of the
• 38:19
  Elven story in this season could have done with just a bit more um yeah a bit more handling
• 38:26
  i didn't what about you did you feel that they did enough to explore the the Elven rings
• 38:33
  yeah that's a good question yeah because this is and it's interesting because like the order
• 38:36
  that they have the rings made in as first right of the Elven rings with their uh you know kind
• 38:43
  of manufactured threat of this you know kind of creeping black infection of the trees of
• 38:51
  linden and that this is somehow precipitating some sort of fading of the elves and that we need
• 38:57
  me through is the solution uh sort of like so the so it's it's preventative um uh and that's
• 39:06
  created first and then now that you have these rings then like okay who else needs help if this
• 39:13
  if we're doing this is a larger project okay dwarves uh because they're the means for me through
• 39:18
  like is me through so if me through is what we need then we have to clothe all the elves in
• 39:23
  me through as much as possible so that they can prolong their lives so me through becomes kind of
• 39:28
  your maguffin that this is what everything is kind of centered around that's supposed to be
• 39:32
  like moving the plot forward and that's where you get the the dwarves coming in and so then yeah
• 39:37
  so it's the the dwarven rings are more of a like strategic uh you know kind of an extension
• 39:48
  of the elf rings and then the then I think I did appreciate you know kelo brimbor
• 39:57
  is like being resistant to the idea of rings for mortals uh for for humanity was interesting
• 40:03
  right because he didn't have columns with that for elves because he's an elf and he trusts
• 40:08
  elves but then the dwarves yeah okay they've been helping with the mind you know that they're a
• 40:14
  means of production and we need them for me through like that makes sense but then for humanity
• 40:20
  then like uh they're not quite worthy that these these could be these could this could turn out
• 40:27
  really wrong he didn't quite have those qualms with the dwarves right and then and hardly at all
• 40:32
  with the elves but it's just so so inserting that kind of mistrust between races uh was it was
• 40:41
  interesting but also kind of like the moral question of what are these rings doing where does
• 40:46
  power sit who is worthy of power uh who can you trust with power um those are some questions that
• 40:54
  I think that that kelo brimbor raised that are that are good questions that should have been
• 40:58
  asked the same sort of thing at each stage with those rings right but he was trusting of his own kind
• 41:04
  and then ultimately gets to that point and that's where saran was kind of trying to
• 41:10
  the more involvement that saran has the more it seems that he's kind of a parent that
• 41:16
  he is involved and there's something that's not quite right saran seems to be pushing for this
• 41:20
  more and he's less and less comfortable with it so whereas if you have the elven rings as kind
• 41:27
  of the solution to saran rings instead of having elven rings first and everything else is kind of
• 41:32
  an iteration of elvish rings right um if you have the elven rings as being kind of created if you
• 41:40
  have the you know bulk of the rings with the one ring they're created but then later you have if
• 41:45
  you have them the the elven rings that are created in response to that as kind of the corrective to
• 41:50
  the other rings that's completely different dynamic right um so now this is
• 41:55
  taken that um that possibility and so just on and that was a law issue i mean we're fine
• 42:02
  okay the choices choices are choices that's fine um and then the the owners is to make it work
• 42:10
  once you've shot a door and something um so there are more controversial choices like the
• 42:20
  introduction of the stranger who this is where there is a plot spoiler who at the end of this season
• 42:26
  is revealed to be Gandalf now this isn't a known route for Gandalf in in anything and they were
• 42:38
  they did have the possibility of making the two wizards in this blue wizards who are not really
• 42:44
  written up at all or only briefly by Tolkien so there's much more sort of space there for
• 42:50
  elaboration but i can see the okay so we're gonna we want Gandalf in because he we know he's alive
• 42:59
  and we know he's one of the most popular characters so let's as you know Tom Bumberdale he's also
• 43:04
  alive he's also popular and not been used let's put him in as well right um i can see the sort of
• 43:10
  writer's room thought about that and then you think well we've got proto hobbits as well so let's
• 43:16
  do a long arc for the founding of the Shire which i think was um what was kind of i imagine is the end
• 43:24
  of right season five i mean i think that's okay um but does this work for you having Gandalf
• 43:36
  wandering around spending all the time trying to work out who he is
• 43:40
  yeah like so it it it doesn't i mean that's like that that is interesting and we see
• 43:47
  just shades of that in uh in lord of the rings itself right when Gandalf is coming back as Gandalf
• 43:54
  the white um especially you know depicted in as depicted in the films where he's a minute like
• 44:00
  oh well yes Gandalf that was my name right right like oh like that's what you called me uh
• 44:06
  and you should have kind of like a slow it's not a complete memory white but it seems to be
• 44:12
  that he's still kind of settling into his body and reorienting himself to this kind of mortal
• 44:20
  frame that he's been kind of reinserted within but yeah so so i get like i appreciate
• 44:27
  the the impulse to show the development of a character um but it's one of the the challenges
• 44:37
  that you that you face there that this is something and i hate to keep bringing star wars up uh
• 44:43
  here but something that where they've had to do certain right prequels uh or you know prologues to
• 44:51
  different series have different different different different approaches right so um with the solo
• 44:56
  the Han Solo movie that's that's dedicated to how did this character become the you know
• 45:04
  rogish smuggler that we all know and love there's a pain that was taken there to introduce you
• 45:12
  know to explain everything so you have you know where did his last name come from uh it was from uh
• 45:17
  you know the passenger you know he's he's signing up and he didn't have a last name and he was going
• 45:22
  by himself and so he said okay your your name is Han and your last name is going to be a solo
• 45:27
  the questions that nobody's asking um or there there's a need i think a uh a felt need to explain
• 45:35
  everything to say here's everything how did he get his blue hat how does let's explain
• 45:40
  before he got these you know and even the phrases that you hear Gandalf saying that he is hearing
• 45:46
  from Tom Bombadilla right that we need to we need to have an answer for basically explain everything
• 45:53
  that we see Gandalf do that has to be we have to explain all of that and i think that's the tendency
• 45:59
  that that's where they're kind of like leaning towards uh which is which is difficult when you're
• 46:06
  working within a known uh canon for back of a better term right we have expectations people know
• 46:14
  and love these characters so there's there's only so far that you can go uh whereas if you have
• 46:20
  if you're doing something completely different if you're following this character in a different
• 46:24
  storyline uh you can do things you still have to keep the core of the character the same but you can
• 46:31
  do different things and do interesting things that people aren't expecting that you don't have to
• 46:35
  kind of feel the need to shoehorn quotes and equipment and different things into the one
• 46:42
  storyline it allows more room to breathe than things to be more organic um so once you choose
• 46:47
  where this is going to be Gandalf we're doing how Gandalf begins you're kind of locking yourself
• 46:52
  into a certain type of storytelling that is kind of feels the need to provide precursors for
• 46:59
  everything that you know and love about this character in the present day but that's not the only
• 47:03
  way to do that there's different ways that you can do that um but this is the way that they chose
• 47:08
  and it's uh for for people that do know and love the character or that even appreciate
• 47:16
  the larger lore around the character uh then this can be off-putting or this can be where those
• 47:23
  folks really kind of we can rub them the wrong way yeah i mean the problem i have here is actually
• 47:29
  really like Daniel Wayman i think he's a fantastic younger casting for Gandalf um yeah i mean
• 47:40
  it's no it's not a problem with him um it's i think it is the problem of
• 47:47
  they're giving answers to why Gandalf is such a big is such a thing which don't actually
• 47:52
  aren't talking's answers so tongue talking's had other ideas about this character and they're
• 47:57
  inventing things which don't necessarily feel as though they're right for it i know they have got
• 48:02
  i think Simon Tolkien is an associate uh sort of like an advisor possibly there they feel that
• 48:08
  they can run it by him and he and he'll say it's fine okay um but i suppose it comes down to
• 48:16
  as we are mainly about sort of creativity this podcast yeah that the problem is that Gandalf um
• 48:23
  poppy and nori's story do not intersect with the ring story and right right they're going to change
• 48:31
  how the age ends they don't have a big role in that either right i'm not kind of sure how it's
• 48:41
  almost like it's doing its own thing on a separate track right around the room yeah so it's
• 48:45
  the big show now the kind of setting up Gandalf now to be setting up against the other
• 48:52
  dark wizard and then maybe that's going to be its own storyline but there's no even the only
• 48:58
  inklings that we really get or maybe she's a different word from inklings the only uh you know
• 49:03
  kind of premonition that this is going to tie into the other is right when the dark wizard is
• 49:07
  talking about you know we have you know saran is rising oh he how he knew that was happening is
• 49:13
  a different question and where news of this uh is coming to them here far away in the east um
• 49:21
  but it the kind of the intersection that it looks like it is like these are the you have to be
• 49:26
  Easterlings uh these are people that if if these people uh here in ruin could be part of saran's
• 49:34
  army they could be swayed to his uh cause and then there would be no hope for metal earth because
• 49:40
  this is a large presumably large population really haven't seen anybody in ruin other than a handful
• 49:46
  of uh you know our proto hobbits and these masked i love the character design on the you know
• 49:54
  that are masked figures on the horsebacks and that that's really fun but there's only handful of
• 50:00
  those so does this wide open space that we're we're supposed to be worried that is a threat to all
• 50:05
  of middle earth is consisting of four people with with with uh you know how staff uh in that in
• 50:13
  those kind of temple like uh yeah and so on the nascals of course as uh yeah right and those are
• 50:21
  and so to tell you the truth like for me like where where i see where i saw some of the greatest
• 50:27
  investment that i have where what i think is the funnest for me is when they're they're developing
• 50:32
  new characters right so those yeah the the nascals we have your your acolyte and your shield men but
• 50:39
  the three uh kind of sorcerers that we're out looking for the screen to become a lot something
• 50:45
  go back to being yes exactly yeah so those are like this so that so that's fun like that's like
• 50:50
  fantastic i love like that and you can build up more like additional kind of uh add jason
• 50:56
  lore that's inspired by and they could be doing something having some sort of different story
• 51:01
  these these masked figures uh some there's some storyline that's happening there that would be
• 51:06
  great in compelling as its own kind of thing right this is a uh people painting on Tolkien's broader
• 51:13
  canvas right that he was saying you know he was hoping to do you know make a myth for um for
• 51:18
  England but there was so broad uh in its uh in its vision that other people would kind of take
• 51:24
  things up and add a corner here and there and so you clearly have lots of of opportunities for
• 51:30
  creating uh you know compelling characters uh within that so those those are some of these things
• 51:36
  that are creative and seeing what do you do in a Tolkien world that isn't necessarily just following
• 51:41
  and tracing people that we know and love and we know what's going to happen to them what are
• 51:45
  what are the the faiths of characters so erandier he's not that he's not in the he's not in Lord
• 51:50
  of the Rings we don't know what happens to him so that's kind of a again forgive me for another
• 51:54
  Star Wars uh you're kind of tying back to their storytelling strategy but the uh andor
• 52:00
  right so it's taking one character that you know is not going to end up that's not pivotal
• 52:04
  it's not like meeting this character doesn't have to meet Obi-Wan and Yoda and Darth Vader he
• 52:09
  doesn't have to have all these so because this character is not kind of obligated to
• 52:15
  intersect with all of the other characters that you know and love uh you can do more emotional you
• 52:21
  have more creativity and flexibility storytelling wise to make stories for the sake of stories that
• 52:27
  happen to inhabit this world um that's what you can do more with those sort of characters this is not
• 52:33
  legends of the east or adventures in the east this is rings of power so you can't so if you're
• 52:37
  going to do like that almost has to be a separate project uh to kind of bring that in and flesh
• 52:42
  that out and this is about rings of power and you're committed to following this story then you
• 52:45
  really need to hue closely to that as being your you're kind of like guiding principle and north star
• 52:50
  and we're back to the okay you've got five seasons you could probably
• 52:53
  rope in this story by having um these being you know potentially sarrons allies which
• 53:02
  which would fit with us and what we do know about the history there but it's a long way to long
• 53:07
  time for us to wait without really feeling engaged um in that story and i just want to do a shout out
• 53:16
  anybody who's writing a fantasy script please can you not do old friend oh all these says oh you
• 53:24
  come to see me old friend all these it's just that came from these um saruman and Gandalf dialogue
• 53:34
  from finished up with the ring and it just crops up everywhere the whole time you don't go around
• 53:39
  saying old friend very often um but it is it's like this little mushroom growth that sprouted up in
• 53:46
  high epic fantasy so let's talk about the characters i'm in brief we want to sort of wrap this up
• 53:51
  now and we've talked about a lot of them already um we do have i thought there was my overall feeling
• 54:00
  before i give it is rating is that actually for me um this was a series where the parts
• 54:08
  are greater than the sun there were bits of it which i really liked and this was usually
• 54:14
  down to performances um so i thought that Charlie Vickers was really watchable wonderfully new
• 54:24
  on particularly with Celebrimbaugh um Charles Edwards character so even if Charles Edward looks
• 54:30
  sort of a bit old to be an elf you know what i mean the Kierdan character when he came in
• 54:36
  who had the um he was old but also elven um i think he oh but then because Charles Edwards
• 54:48
  who i've seen in things like the crown and other things so i've got you know i know it
• 54:51
  more ready to look at i thought okay fine we'll just go with him being Celebrimbaugh and his
• 54:57
  performance sort of wiped out the fact that i thought he's got a lot of lines on his face you know
• 55:01
  that kind of please you know superficial reaction to me yeah good for him he showed that
• 55:07
  agent matter um and i thought that as we've already mentioned that those those scenes where he's
• 55:15
  being duped but also giving his sort of prophecy uh they're all really strong and very watchable
• 55:22
  i thought the doorins were great and desa i'd like to all of them um
• 55:31
  it wasn't really a character where i thought i don't like your casting it was more
• 55:37
  of i do you have to be here like i don't understand fear and i don't understand uh
• 55:45
  arrondie who i quite like but i don't know what they were making of him
• 55:51
  i did like adar who um for those of you who are deep in your law um adar is one of the names of
• 55:58
  tom bomberdale isn't he um ben adar native fatherless i think it means fatherless and when he
• 56:06
  is wearing the ring in the last episode and he reverts to his unsport elven face i really wanted
• 56:14
  galadriel to recognize him she didn't but yeah right right yeah really great if these name
• 56:21
  ourselves who then became the fathers of the ox she says oh that's you know we play together
• 56:27
  uncle uncle so and so yeah i don't know for you what i would have been an interesting development
• 56:33
  there because that's the social problems the ideas of where they came from um so i've picked those
• 56:37
  out oh and you know for baddies i think um leon watum as the horrible kemen um who is our farazon
• 56:46
  son he's great everybody hates him well done well done you're being a very annoying
• 56:53
  person so well done you have you got any other other characters that you'd want to give a shout out
• 57:03
  no you've covered i think you've you've covered it largely that i think the
• 57:07
  the relationship the dwarf like the dwarf relationships are just phenomenal just the father's son
• 57:13
  you know these two you know emotionally closed off uh men that are kind of just just kind of
• 57:23
  budding heads and trying to and then one of them trying to reconcile and maybe the you know the sun
• 57:28
  wanting to reconcile father wanting to reconcile but neither one of them can kind of quite say it
• 57:31
  and so just like that tension and then even like the reversal of you know the first during
• 57:38
  the third right king doren who says no we're not gonna you know no ring was no anything we're not
• 57:44
  you know first dismissing everything we're not gonna give me a thrill no and then you know
• 57:50
  prince doren saying no we need to do this we need to have the elves but then they're taking opposite
• 57:54
  positions then carrying this season right so swapping so having to change their reasoning
• 57:59
  rash now just showing kind of that that that kind of polarity shift in what they want
• 58:07
  and keeping that tension between the two of them with that polarity shift and just emotionally as
• 58:12
  it was just phenomenal seeing them in that light so that's pita mullen as king do in the third and
• 58:20
  correct um oh in oh ain't Arthur as just to go there they're juiced yeah is not worth yeah yeah
• 58:27
  they're they're just just want to do your view on a lendil and paint Lloyd Owen who I think is
• 58:34
  another really bright point and out yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I wonder just like this and like
• 58:39
  so seeing again like so these these familial relationships that are just right so you have
• 58:47
  right are Ellen deal who as a father figure has lost a child who is starting to rub well you know
• 58:55
  with a sildor who is kind of starting to like kind of rebellious not quite doing what father wanted
• 59:00
  him to um but him then losing this child you know him kind of following this footsteps him
• 59:07
  keep kicking him out of the guard but then him finding you know a sildor finding his way back into
• 59:12
  the guard as emergency you know conscript for the war and then father like taking you know being
• 59:18
  responsible for him uh as a soldier but then him falling and then right with the scenes you know
• 59:24
  the funeral memorial scene where you have this emotional for him letting go of him and then having
• 59:28
  this other son figure with valendil um who is kind of the son as he wanted the Ellen deal kind of
• 59:36
  wanted but then having that son who's being faithful and their present being you know murdered
• 59:42
  him cold blood uh and just like his performance there right with just like this grief of
• 59:47
  lot there and then having to then turn around and essentially almost like see him losing his
• 59:52
  daughter at the same time of losing his biological son losing his kind of proxy son uh uh
• 1:00:00
  and then kind of this wedge loss of his daughter and his daughter choosing something you know
• 1:00:06
  choosing a different kind of father authority figure than him just like yeah so I thought he did
• 1:00:10
  really well of staying the course if we're if this is going and this is going to turn into a
• 1:00:16
  lore-wise story of the faithful versus the king's men uh right in newmen or and so having him
• 1:00:23
  as this figure his speeches you know kind of like little monologues uh or mini monologues mini logs
• 1:00:29
  about uh what it means to be faithful right um is this that he he he's not compromising
• 1:00:36
  his faith he will renounce what he did but he will not renounce this core of like his belief
• 1:00:42
  and his belief that's not lived there's no faith at all right uh so i i think he does a strong
• 1:00:49
  strong drop there so do you think the rings of power has a female problem um i i'm beginning to
• 1:00:54
  think that maybe they're not doing the best by their female characters having put in quite few
• 1:01:00
  um so a particularly strong actress is Cynthia Ady Robinson as Muriel but they've blinded her
• 1:01:06
  so that her reactions as an actress are necessarily going to she's got to act blind um right
• 1:01:16
  which isn't necessary for i'm not sure why they've done that it's not necessary for the story
• 1:01:22
  i suppose it suggests that this is the reason why other people can sort of put one over on her
• 1:01:27
  but i'm not i'm not sure about that choice um then we've got the two girls who are the proto-hobbits
• 1:01:37
  who had much more i'm not sure they've had much range in this season or importance and then
• 1:01:46
  i suppose the big problem is um Galadriel who uh i actually quite i like Morphid Clark i think
• 1:01:54
  she's great but i don't like the characterization of Galadriel um if she feels very similar to Tariel
• 1:02:01
  in the hobbit um yeah right right um and so sometimes she's revered and what have you
• 1:02:09
  and like at the end where they say where Galadriel turned around and says oh what do you think
• 1:02:14
  and they suddenly remember oh yeah she's an elder uh another time because like it's rebellious
• 1:02:19
  commander who's right right right um and her fight with
• 1:02:25
  saaron at the end of the climactic fight though it has some nice concepts in it i didn't feel the
• 1:02:32
  chills down my spine that i felt when dumbledore fought Voldemort you know for example in
• 1:02:39
  yeah in uh whichever one it's Harry Potter the one in the ministry of magic um it felt as though
• 1:02:48
  they could have been i don't know i i wonder if they need to think about their women um because
• 1:02:56
  they're suffering in contrast to lots of really strong male characters yeah i mean let's look
• 1:03:05
  at what happened in um the kelebrimble anital story you have i can't even remember her name but help
• 1:03:13
  her elf who spent most of her time making public announcements on the saying oh they're coming and
• 1:03:19
  you know kelebrimble is doing what he should you know that that lady i can't even remember her name
• 1:03:24
  the one who was being slightly remanded by the saaron figure and then she just dies suddenly but
• 1:03:29
  shouldn't have any sort of life beyond this sort of cipher and um it i don't know and we lost
• 1:03:38
  Bronwyn who in the first season was a strong female character and with her role i seem to be taken by
• 1:03:45
  um the lady who caught his orders i try to remember what her name is um do you remember her name
• 1:03:52
  i see i can't even remember her name which is it shows it's a problem estrid right um i i think
• 1:04:00
  anyway so my diagnosis is of season two is that they having repaired some of the problems
• 1:04:07
  of season one they now got a female problem yes yeah agreed yeah i know and then desa being the
• 1:04:15
  strongest like i think in terms of like your female characters desa as being the one who's having
• 1:04:22
  the most impact on events other than like gladriel and like any of like emotional impact right so
• 1:04:28
  this is a character again this is and here's a character that was not you know doesn't exist
• 1:04:32
  that they're fabricating this character for this but she's the dynamic between her and prince
• 1:04:39
  durin and just how she's she's she's like an active participant you know she's not just a cipher she's
• 1:04:45
  not just there uh as a love interest she's not just there as uh as a foie as a foil you know just kind
• 1:04:53
  of just to or as a prop for the male character she's there she's pushing durin durin there's this
• 1:05:00
  collaboration between the two of them um and i like i i love seeing that you usually don't see
• 1:05:07
  husband and wife characters and like it to definitely not like two parents with children we haven't
• 1:05:13
  been able to see their children right at work yet but uh you know we know they i think we know we saw
• 1:05:20
  two of them running playing with helmets in the first season which was fun um so yeah so i think
• 1:05:25
  Disa is a good model for the type of like strong character that can like that has an impact on the plot
• 1:05:32
  and uh bronwyn i think we saw that unfortunately the character you know the the actor um decided to
• 1:05:39
  step away from acting to pursue her uh her kind of passion and calling and and activism with the
• 1:05:45
  around um but so unfortunately they lost her not because of the plot they would love to have her so
• 1:05:51
  she was kind of shaping up to be uh a character i think that could have done a lot and probably
• 1:05:55
  given erandier something uh more to do than just but because taking her out of the equation you
• 1:06:02
  have to fold him in quickly to one of the other storylines that explains why arrondis is just
• 1:06:08
  wandering around looking for something to do yeah exactly because that wasn't the original plan
• 1:06:12
  yeah unfortunately and i would i would criticize them for actually doing some really cliche
• 1:06:17
  things with galadriel putting her in a cage the princess in the cage thing come on guys
• 1:06:25
  and uh and uh oh she can only get out because um the clever guy comes and smuggles her a broach
• 1:06:32
  pick lockpick yes yeah right i mean i thought oh come on come on it does that right so um yeah
• 1:06:39
  let's let's challenge them i'm going to send more yeah on the airways to repair what they're doing
• 1:06:46
  with their female characters because having a couple of um leaders of the hobbits being women isn't
• 1:06:52
  sufficient uh really isn't um we haven't mentioned just before we go we haven't mentioned
• 1:06:59
  Gil galad Benjamin Walker i think for me his high point in the season was um his song it's got a great
• 1:07:07
  voice yeah um i also like Robert Aramayo as arrond who has the most northern like in real life he's
• 1:07:15
  got a sort of Sean Bean accent so he's he's doing really well i was a real shocked to see interviews
• 1:07:20
  with him i like both of them um though i would say i would suggest to the costume designers
• 1:07:26
  because uh Gil galad has a round face round friendly face which seems more man than elf
• 1:07:35
  that they could do some um he looks better in armour rather than a robe he he he doesn't
• 1:07:42
  so immediately shout it as sort of elf looks at in the you know at you um so i think they could
• 1:07:49
  improve the way he's presented so you know he's gonna he's gonna be a big part of the sort of
• 1:07:55
  military leader i'd loved to have seen an establishing he spends all his time being middle
• 1:08:01
  management in boardrooms i would love to have seen him um introduce where he's in the sort
• 1:08:08
  of practice yards with his lance which was keen um doing a sort of amazing routine where he's
• 1:08:17
  taking down uh all the other people practicing against him to show that he is this wonderful warrior
• 1:08:23
  king as well they've made him quite middle aged and the sort of tone that's been set for him
• 1:08:29
  right yeah and because he is a fighter and i'm right turned up it's my last gripe
• 1:08:36
  why did he turn up at the battle with nobody else with him or next to nobody i thought this
• 1:08:43
  isn't really not a good plan Gil galad but anyway um i i think Benjamin Walker more singing please
• 1:08:48
  and perhaps a a rethink on the wardrobe and hair hairstyle um and bring out the bit more of the
• 1:08:55
  the fighting side now that's just me um okay so now to the crunch the moment of truth uh how many
• 1:09:06
  rings are you giving this are you distributing to the faithful um out of 10 rings from your forge
• 1:09:16
  yeah i i think a seven i think i'm gonna go with a seven because it was there were at
• 1:09:25
  yeah like again i i think you put it really well that the the the parts were sometimes greater than
• 1:09:33
  the the sum total if if it would have hung together uh with all of these different parts being
• 1:09:39
  mutually reinforcing all of these incredible performances these kind of uh really
• 1:09:44
  incredibly bright spots of perform not spots they were like i mean i'll say these performances
• 1:09:49
  sections of performance that were really um that were truly excellent uh and compelling um i think
• 1:09:55
  i just kind of strung those together uh better um uh or yeah in in a more organized way again like
• 1:10:05
  pacing wise anytime the the story went to uh rune or like any of like you when you were outlining
• 1:10:13
  kind of the seventh plotline at any time it wandered from the main three or to the top you know
• 1:10:18
  four or so um then the pacing kind of slowed especially when they're going all the way to the east
• 1:10:24
  because it's not directly relevant there's no kind of ticking time bomb necessarily for what
• 1:10:31
  that's what's the end there and so it just kind of seems to be more meandering so if there was
• 1:10:34
  something the more like that line was kind of trimmed out or at least kind of uh subsumed into
• 1:10:41
  connected it just needs to be and all the game ends yeah exactly it kind of means that like it was
• 1:10:47
  an isolated something and then that's what they focus on if you're just like yeah it needs to be
• 1:10:51
  everything needs to be pushing you towards a particular end for that finale and so bringing the
• 1:10:56
  dwarves in right you know the the elven three the three rings where are those going to be um what's
• 1:11:00
  the state of a reggae on are they are the are the trolls are adar and his group right so that's the
• 1:11:05
  fourth you know upstate the calat the big fourth movement there are they going to converge all
• 1:11:08
  those things are converging together uh then yes like that that's where i'm really picking up and
• 1:11:13
  invested and it's compelling me to watch um so yeah if you could do more of that then i would get
• 1:11:19
  it up into the eight nine uh area so i put the sort of question out on our social media following
• 1:11:26
  to see what people thought and our social media following skews towards talking fans
• 1:11:32
  and um i was you know you get those who don't like it at all and hate it and wish it didn't exist
• 1:11:39
  i think that's someone actually said that um but you know you people said that about the people
• 1:11:45
  Jackson films as well and you get a few people who absolutely love it and i can see why because
• 1:11:52
  anything which just means you spend more time in something that's quite close to Tolkien's
• 1:11:58
  world even if not really really talking is it's nice you know in terms of the options of what
• 1:12:05
  you're going to stream that evening i found uh i like the fact that it was weekly episodes i look
• 1:12:11
  forward to it i discussed it with the members of the family i was watching it with we discussed it
• 1:12:16
  afterwards it was much more of a watching experience so it was far more enjoyable than season one
• 1:12:22
  which i just felt like i was i was kind of let down by it um after having been blown away by
• 1:12:29
  visually just finding this i struggled with the story kind of you know waited me so i would say
• 1:12:35
  that i give it um i was i'm not allowed to break up or ring in half oh my so i would go seven rings
• 1:12:44
  as well i was thinking six point five really but you're feeling charitable today yeah and i think
• 1:12:49
  you know you're having pity pity pity will say pretty upwards so i know that Patrick McKay
• 1:12:56
  and John T. Payne who were the show runners and writers with their band of fellow writers and
• 1:13:04
  the director the directors they have a lot of them are directed by Charlotte Brandt's
• 1:13:08
  Randstrom um particularly the finale was hers i think but there's some um other directors as well
• 1:13:15
  involved i know that they have such a difficult job to do and easy for us to sit in our studies
• 1:13:24
  just saying oh yeah we've done this we've done that so i'm also want to add inject a bit of humility
• 1:13:30
  there that i guess they're they're for me they're doing better and that's great yes
• 1:13:40
  by season five guys we should be saying yeah nine ten rings you know so let's hope for the
• 1:13:46
  literature we carries on upwards yeah and i'm a little bit more hopeful that that's a possibility
• 1:13:53
  i think that's final sort of word on it yeah i agree so thank you so much Jacob for talking to me
• 1:14:00
  at this length it's i think it's worth really it's enjoyable to chew it all over so um it is
• 1:14:07
  yeah so thank you so much for joining me on this and um well i did it when season three is coming
• 1:14:14
  out we could be another two years but we look forward to it when it does come out thank you
• 1:14:24
  thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the oxford center for fantasy
• 1:14:31
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