Latest / Pod Therapy / #449: Non Judgmental Therapists, Partner Won't Grow, Arguments vs Compatibility

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#449: Non Judgmental Therapists, Partner Won't Grow, Arguments vs Compatibility · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Because like, if you're in a place with no air conditioning,
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: like a lot of like Paris and all that shit,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: when they get a heat wave, like thousands of people
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: just die.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: That's insane.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they can't, right well, I mean
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the reason they can't is because of their peracious history.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Lione.
• 0:22
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, fus, Las Vegas, Nevada.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Pod therapy. Real people are real problems and real therapists.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: You could submit your.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: Questions anonymously at pod therapy dot net or email us
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: at pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: And now broadcasting from the unnamed studio. That's Jim. That's
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: with me. That's nixt time for some pod therapy. Hello everybody.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: If you are watching the video at home, which you
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: could be doing if you go to patreon dot com
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: slash therapy, you are seeing a handsome devil a few
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: spaces to my left, maybe the right on the camera,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: my former teammate in the trivia challenge at Scoopfest. And
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry I let you down, buddy. You called me
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: up there thinking this guy's educated. You know what's gonna
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: be useful.
• 1:00
  Speaker 5: Our score was down, but our spirits were hot. You
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: know about myself inside my scorecl.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Trophy was the friends we made along the way.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Sure, that's what I also there was a trophy. It's
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: great and fun time.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Brian Brushwood, welcome back to the show, a longtime friend
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: of the show.
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: Is this our first repeat guest.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Besides Whitney, So that means he might have to become
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: a co host.
• 1:27
  Speaker 5: I can move in.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Do you have a C.
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: So we have a C.
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: But the resort fees are really high. You don't want
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: to as.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: Luck as like a five milkshakes.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: So Brian has been with us before. If you go
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: back in our catalog, every May we do a Mental
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Health Month special where we'd try to find somebody out
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: in the world who has done a lot with their
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: lives and bring them out of the show talk about
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: mental health. And Brian was generous enough to come to
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: us and talk about his story and tell us his
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: tales of navigating mental health for himself as a performer,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: as a magician, as a dad, as a celebrated podcast host,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and as a sex icon. You know, and I'm glad
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: that you really brought that up provoked.
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: We got to talk about your sample survey sides. Besides
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: the miss.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Your business card.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: It's on your LinkedIn man number one way you identify.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: So welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas in town for
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: some business and I decided to pop into your favorite
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: therapy podcast and join us for the show.
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I'm just now remembering. Isn't there a
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: secret episode that we recorded that's still in the vaults
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: on your show? I think I have to get it.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: I never got it.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so how we recorded that in your hotel room
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: and then I was like, oh, I wonder if this
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: is like where am I going to see this? And
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: it never came out on your side and I never
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: got it, and I was like, I think you just
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: deleted it.
• 2:59
  Speaker 6: I was like, it's because I us the trivia challenge
• 3:04
  Speaker 6: on the line.
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: No, I'll find it. I think I know where it is.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: I'll get up that scraping off the bottom of your
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: shoes somewhere.
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: All right, Well, hard drive melted.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: That's fair that that is a legitimate excuse. Well, welcome
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: back to the show. Brian Brushwood from what was that
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: show called what does he Do?
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: Guys? What's his podcast? You guys?
• 3:26
  Speaker 7: Which one my favorite night Attack?
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: And then I believe you also do night.
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: Wow that's that's two for two on missing the name
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: cord killing actually.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Going to publish this episode.
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, no, Great Night is the current name, and court Killers.
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: We talk about the news of cable and TV when
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: those used to be things, yeah back in the day,
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: but now nowadays we we actually started covering the cord
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: cutting revolution. Before there was a cord cutting revolution, we
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: could just tell that it was coming. So it's kind
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: of like creating a show called iPad today thinking an
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: iPad would be invented at some point, right, But then
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: now that revolution is coming, gone, and so now the
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: show is about like, Okay, now that that's over with,
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: how do you find the good stuff?
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: So that's all I know. That's all I need.
• 4:21
  Speaker 7: I just need somebody to be like, here's the app
• 4:22
  Speaker 7: you need to be on now. Yeah, that's that's at
• 4:26
  Speaker 7: this point now, just middle aged white guy. I just
• 4:28
  Speaker 7: need the direction of like, here's the app you should buy.
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: Just get this Oh wait, sorry, get choked up. You know,
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: have you guys tried just asking a robot because like,
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: I don't like to believe that it's so easy to
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: get my number, but like I was like, hey man,
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: I'm getting on a plane just hit me, what do
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: you think I'm going to like? Two of the three
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: suggestions were things I already loved, and the third was
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: mel Brooks The ninety nine year Old Man, Oh, which
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: was a great thing to watch on that pie.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: It was great, oh man. Yeah, yeah, they've got us
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: pegged now. Yeah. Yeah, it's so.
• 5:03
  Speaker 7: Although I could recommend The nine nine year Old Man
• 5:07
  Speaker 7: to anybody, yeah.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: It's so good.
• 5:09
  Speaker 7: It's a new documentary, but mel Brooks, it's only been
• 5:13
  Speaker 7: out for a few months.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: It is very, very good.
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: What you should be thinking is what if I don't
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: know anything about mel Brooks.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: That's why you should watch it.
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: Now you'll understand what an icon is. It's great to
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: bring you up to speed on his unbelievable legendary career.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: I just watched the one on Eddie Murphy and holy
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: shit to realize what he was at the time, Like
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: there may have been nobody more famous in the world time.
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: And then he just never.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Used drugs, like he's hanging out with like fucking Rick James.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: He's just like, well, whatever, you guys gonna do drugs
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: now by Nico harm and.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Go get my eight hours.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Incredible that he just did not destroy his career when
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: so many people did and he survived the time.
• 5:52
  Speaker 7: So there's so many people that are so much more
• 5:55
  Speaker 7: people that we've heard of now, there's so much more
• 5:58
  Speaker 7: famous than we can really comprehend. Yeah, Johnny Carson is
• 6:01
  Speaker 7: a big one. Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis, Like Dean
• 6:05
  Speaker 7: Martin and Jerry Lewis were the Beatles, Like they were
• 6:08
  Speaker 7: the same level as the Beatles, maybe bigger. Yeah, Like
• 6:12
  Speaker 7: they were humongous. Everybody knew knew them, like it is
• 6:16
  Speaker 7: it's crazy.
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that couldn't have been healthy.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I mean no, no game is like and Eddie talks
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: about that in the documentary. He talks about, like the
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: most dangerous thing is just surviving celebrity. And Dave Chappelle's
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: in it, like a lot of other people jump in
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: and they all to a person tell that part of
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: the story that Eddie's remarkable talent is that he survived
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: celebrity without losing his soul or getting into any scandals
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: or anything crazy. Yeah, he just was always just kind
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: of a moderate dude who never took himself that.
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: S how do you survive celebrity?
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll tell you what. Most of the year I
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: don't have to think about that at all. Okay, But
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: then if con which is you know, thirty to I
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: don't know, eighty thousand hackers or whatever, like.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: A dangerous place, don't don't want with your phone, do
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: you turn it off exactly?
• 7:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, But you know they all go through a magic
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: phase at some point in scam school. There was there
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: was a time when you know, I don't know a
• 7:11
  Speaker 5: good five years or so where it was the number
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: one way to learn magic on the planet. So hence
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: the fact that everyone wants to tell me how old
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: they were when they saw it.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Sure, what's the most common age you hear?
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: Oh, it's I mean, unsurprisingly, the age that they that
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: these boys were interested in magic was around thirteen.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll never forget. And I think I told Jim
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: this story. But when I ran into Brian in Austin.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Down the street, that's what happened.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Because I was down there, was my my, my college
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: buddies and I we always do these guys trips every
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: once in a while. We went to Austin and we're
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: just walking down one of the streets down there, and
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: three guys on scooters go by stop at the red
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: light with us, and then they take off and I
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: hear Brian talking and I look and I just I
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: just caught him out of the corner of my eyes,
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: like I think that's Brian Brushwood. And then we walked
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: down to the next because you guys got the red
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: next red light. So we're walking, we catch up to you.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: It's almost like the scooter weren't worth it.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And then I was like, it's like, Brian, and
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: you did this thing where you're turning.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Like another thirteen year old boy.
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  Speaker 6: Brian Brushwood the number one search history because I was
• 8:37
  Speaker 6: I was behind him. I was behind him and I
• 8:40
  Speaker 6: could see again, I could see his shoulders and his.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: Head just drow he be curious.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: To Brian's credit, by the time he swung around, he
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: was excited because he was like, I'm really.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: Excited I'm going to meet somebody new.
• 8:55
  Speaker 8: And then I was like, hey, yeah, maybe I don't
• 8:58
  Speaker 8: know if you know what a solid did me Because
• 9:02
  Speaker 8: the two other guys that were on scooters were on
• 9:05
  Speaker 8: the channel that overtook Scam School to become the number
• 9:09
  Speaker 8: one place of magic, and I was appearing on his
• 9:12
  Speaker 8: channel for the very first time.
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: Remember me, and by golly, random.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 9:26
  Speaker 6: Would have been you owed me twenty bucks either way.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: Here's the thing, here's how you can make it even Okay,
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: if you ever see me in public, I want you
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: to do there now all write my last name down.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: So, oh my god, it's NICKI tang them here is fabulous.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: This guy.
• 9:55
  Speaker 7: Have you ever heard Don Rickles tell the story of
• 9:58
  Speaker 7: doing this like doing this favor with Carson? No, sorry,
• 10:03
  Speaker 7: he tells the sory to Johnny Carson, but it's about Sinatra.
• 10:06
  Speaker 7: And so Don Rickles is in a restaurant. He's telling
• 10:08
  Speaker 7: this story of Johnny Carson. Don Rickles in a restaurant
• 10:10
  Speaker 7: and Johnny Carson is over there and Rickles is talking
• 10:14
  Speaker 7: to Sorry, Frank Sinatra is in the restaurant as well,
• 10:17
  Speaker 7: and so Don Rickles was talking to Frank Sinatra says,
• 10:19
  Speaker 7: you know, I'm here on a date with the with
• 10:21
  Speaker 7: the missus.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: It'd be really great if you could come by the
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: table and just say hello to me. You know, you
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: should should really think a lot of it. And he goes, oh, yeah,
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: I could do that. So he waite a little while
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: and then comes by the table.
• 10:31
  Speaker 7: He goes, oh, Don Rickles, it's good to see you, Frank,
• 10:34
  Speaker 7: can't you see I'm trying to.
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: With my gun.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: To have a meal and you come over here and Frank,
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: what are you doing? Yeah? Yeah, great move. I'd be
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: fine with that.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be fine with Brian Bushwood just being pissed
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: off at me in public and just telling me to
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: go fuck myself like that's also acceptable.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Again. Yes, then he called me up here. I'm gonna
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: pare it.
• 11:03
  Speaker 9: He a.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: There's a tough day. Tough day for Jim James got
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: beat up that day.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Anyway, We've got some great questions for today's show, and
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: a professional magician to help us answer them.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Why the fuck not?
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: First question in the order? Can a therapy to.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: A French drop?
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: I'm glad you asked?
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Is this a quarter behind my ear hipod therapy? Here's
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: a question I've been thinking about that might make therapists
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable. Do therapists actually judge their clients? We're
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: constantly told that therapy should be a safe, non judgmental space, but.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: Is that really possible.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Therapists are human beings with their own values, biases, experiences,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: and personal reactions. Surely there are clients they genuinely like
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: more than others, clients they find irritating, clients whose choices
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: they disagree with, and even clients they quietly judge. So
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: what happens to those judgments? Is a therapist capable of
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: sitting across from someone who's done something they find morally objectionable,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: made choices they fundamentally disagree with, or repeatedly behaved in
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: ways they find frustrating, and genuinely remaining impartial. And if
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: the therapist believes they're being impartial, how would they even know?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: We all have blind spots? A therapist could sincerely believe
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: they're offering unconditional acceptance while subtly communicating disapproval through their tone, questions,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: facial expressions, or the advice they give, which raises an
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: even bigger question. Does a therapist's judgment actually have to
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: be expressed to be harmful? If a client senses that
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: their therapist thinks they're selfish, irresponsible, manipulative, immature, promiscuous, lazy, difficult,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: or simply making terrible life choices, can they really be
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: a trusting therapeutic relationship?
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: If a therapist falls in the woods.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Nobody is there to build or does their require the
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: client to believe at some level that their therapist isn't
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: sitting there privately evaluating them. And here's the part I'm
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: most curious about. Is unconditional positive regard actually possible or
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: is it something therapists aspire to while knowing they'll inevitably
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: fall short. Maybe the real mark of a good therapist
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: isn't that they don't judge. Maybe it's that they're aware
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: of the judgments, honest with themselves about them, and disciplined
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: enough not to let those judgments determine how they treat
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: their clients. But then again, if therapists are supposed to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: help people confront their own unhealthy behaviors and beliefs, isn't
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: some degree of judgment unavoidable? At what point does clinical
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: assessment become personal judgment? So, therapists of pod therapy, are
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: you really non judgmental? Or are you just really good
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: at hiding your judgments? And if you are judging your
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: clients sometimes, does that make you a bad therapist? Are
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: simply a human?
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: One?
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: Signed? Anonymous pronouns? Are he and him? That is not
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: what makes Jim a bad therapist? Yeah, yeah, there's so
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: many other He planted fake cocaine. It was once and
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: everybody thought it was hilarious. Whitney, how many times have
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: you done that?
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Still waiting? Haven't done it?
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: Zero zero?
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: You know, nobody wants to go to rehab with you.
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: There was one line in there that raised an eyebrow
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: from me, And maybe I'm not aware of it, but
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: is it, like, is the supposition true that the job
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: of the therapist is unconditional positive regard regard?
• 14:30
  Speaker 7: I wondered about that because I didn't think that was
• 14:33
  Speaker 7: part of the gig.
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And in fact, I think I would not like
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: that if I received that, because it's like, like, I
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: already have a robot to just tell me I'm you.
• 14:41
  Speaker 7: Know, I think that I don't need somebody else to
• 14:46
  Speaker 7: tell me how awesome I I'm already awesome.
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: I mean, And to be honest, it's like, if I'm
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: going to a therapist, almost certainly I'm going to ask
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: for them to render a summary judgment on my behavior,
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: either in the past or in the future.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Something brought me in the or for sure.
• 15:00
  Speaker 9: Right, this is interesting because you kind of bring up
• 15:03
  Speaker 9: a really good point, actually, Brian, Like, there's a lot
• 15:06
  Speaker 9: more that I see online now where people want their
• 15:09
  Speaker 9: therapists to like call them out or yeah, yeah, yeah exactly,
• 15:16
  Speaker 9: or they come into two session and they're like, oh,
• 15:18
  Speaker 9: I'm really struggling with X, Y or Z, and why
• 15:21
  Speaker 9: can't I like, why won't my anxiety go away?
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Whatever?
• 15:23
  Speaker 9: And literally I watched this recently where they were recording
• 15:26
  Speaker 9: their therapy session with permission from the therapist, and the
• 15:29
  Speaker 9: therapist like, well, you haven't been to therapy in two months,
• 15:32
  Speaker 9: like so why would you expect yourself? Like why would
• 15:35
  Speaker 9: you expect your anxiety to get better if you aren't
• 15:37
  Speaker 9: even showing up? And they're like damn, and everyone in
• 15:39
  Speaker 9: the comments is like I need a therapist like this,
• 15:41
  Speaker 9: like I want a therapist to.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Call me out.
• 15:43
  Speaker 9: I was like, this is very interesting and so but
• 15:47
  Speaker 9: unconditional positive regard. I don't think it means like we're
• 15:50
  Speaker 9: just gonna gas you up or you can do no wrong.
• 15:53
  Speaker 9: It's more like nuanced than that in a way that's
• 15:56
  Speaker 9: like open mindedness.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I think Jim's used the example before, if you how
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: to treat like Hitler.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Doctor Philip be the worst therapist ever, Like.
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, like the way you use the hypothetical in.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: That, yeah, yeah, it would have been previous would have
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: been imagine what a do she would have been like,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: if that's really how we did therapy, be the worst
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: fucking guy ever, but a really great TV show host.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Right when we watch Judge Judy is he people want
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: to see, like how the psychologist past when I Loved
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: You did number one Google thing among fifteen year old girls.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Doctor Philip mcgra.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Top. Yeah, I mean you guys know he was in play. Yes,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: good for him again, great performance.
• 16:53
  Speaker 7: Hang this cowboy hat anywhere for you?
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Hang your head? Who raised you? Yeah? So I don't
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: think that that's a picture doctor phil is having a
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: giant penis. Okay, just picture yeah, like a baby's uncut.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: You know. I think I was picturing good uncut. Yeah,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: I think it's cut. Yeah, I think he's cut. Actually,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: I think he's cutting quite remotionally. I was picturing on cut.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, my head says it's cut, my heart wants it.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: That's where I'm at.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Also, this is a question that comes up a lot
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: in therapy. You know, it's one of the first things
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: people ask Doctor Bill's penis, what's your theoretical orientation circumcised?
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: You know, where are you at with this stuff?
• 17:45
  Speaker 7: So no, but this is like cat there's doctor Phil's
• 17:49
  Speaker 7: force right with the McGraw effect is that we call
• 17:53
  Speaker 7: that professionally.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody wants their their therapist to be so judgy.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: But people say this all the time, and I'm sure
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: you hear this in your private practice. Like patients will
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: come in and go, I want a straight shooter. I
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: want somebody's gonna tell me the truth. And then when
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: they start talking, you're like, everybody in your life has
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: told you the truth and you don't believe them, right,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: they all say you're a fucking narcissist or you're fucking
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: crazy or whatever, and now you're here talking to me
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm not an alcoholic, right, I just
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: like having a beer. And it's like if I just
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: tell you, yeah, you are, that's the end of our conversation.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: You're not gonna get any help. So therapists often don't
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: take that direct approach. We tend to go like kind
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: of around and like, okay, let's start by agreeing to
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: things that you will like that I can buy my
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: way into this relationship by showing that I genuinely regard you, right,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: And that's what unlimited positive regard is is starting the
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: relationship from a position of I really want to try
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: to understand you so well, because if you could really
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: understand a human all the way through, you would inherently
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: see the world from their perspective, and you'd be biased
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: toward them even if they did something that you think
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: is morally wrong.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: Would it be kind of akin to like the way
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: a public defender has.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: To you have an obligation to do that.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like during the Trump years, I mean that
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: which is fucking apparently still going on. Like on January sixth,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I was doing therapy on January sixth Discovery and that
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: was the President.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was calling me, Jim, what do
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: I do?
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I was like, you stop, stop right now, you lost
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: Let it go. Man. No, that's not what you're saying.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: You were saying, double down.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Democracy's getting boring.
• 19:28
  Speaker 7: I've never understood gems thing with Iran, but I mean
• 19:32
  Speaker 7: he comes to me for a lot of thoughts.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, I just I direct a lot more policy people understand.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: But like on January sixth, I went back to back.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I had pass that were very scared and going, oh
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: my god, can you believe this is happening? And other
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: patients that were like, this is it. We're going to
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: overthrow the Biden people and the cabal, and he's going
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to lead the revolution. We're going to march in the streets.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And that was very hard for me to listen to. Right,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: But like, even in that moment, which I think that
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: position is morally repugnant and wrong, I have to still
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: remember the person I'm talking to and see the world
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: from their perspective that they do believe there's a giant,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: you know, conspiracy, that the election was stolen, that their
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: president's not lying to them. It's not my job to
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: tell them that they're wrong. It's my job to understand
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: them and try to use that understanding to still find
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: ways to nudge them, but also only to fix the
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: things they ask me to fix. Yeah, people don't come
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: in and say tell me to vote for They come
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: in and say, I have fucking anxiety.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Make it stop.
• 20:25
  Speaker 7: Let me ask you this because I'm sitting here thinking
• 20:28
  Speaker 7: the because we're talking about it is kind of being judgmental.
• 20:32
  Speaker 7: Does it matter a therapist likes you.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Or not it?
• 20:37
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I was like, it's not about like, it's about
• 20:40
  Speaker 9: can I be vulnerable?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Like it just like in your partnerships.
• 20:44
  Speaker 9: Like if you can't kind of tell them the shitty
• 20:47
  Speaker 9: things about yourself and they still love you or care
• 20:49
  Speaker 9: about you, then you're not going to have a very
• 20:51
  Speaker 9: strong relationship.
• 20:52
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I get that, but I mean I
• 20:55
  Speaker 7: feel like that's more of just a respect thing.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we we have something of a responsibility to recuse
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: ourselves if we we actually have a word for this.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: It's transference and countertransferens. And this can look any number
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: of ways. Like you could have a client that you
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: fall in love with, you're attracted to, and that's that's
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: not okay, right If that gets too strong, you actually
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: need to break that relationship and refer them out. And
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the same thing can happen if you find that you
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: don't like them. But it's like Christianity right where butt
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: stuff is still okay.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: God can't see that. Yeah, yeah, that's the old prison wallet.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Jesus has no idea what just yeah, but no, this
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: will happen, Like, I mean, there's there's clients. I don't
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: know if you have demographics that you just can't work with,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: But there are populations of people that I cannot work with.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I professionally can't do it.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Because your children. Right, No, but that's.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: That's one of them, right, a demographic of people like
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I've I've worked with folks for that did at some
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: point hurt children or something like that, Like, sure, I
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: know I'm not their therapist, I'm not effective for it.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Like it's just that stuff's going to stick in my brain.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: But is that they'll be helpful? Is that not liking them?
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Is that just a result of not liking them so that'sird?
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: Or is that just something that you can't get past.
• 22:08
  Speaker 9: So you bring up Yeah, the next part of that question,
• 22:10
  Speaker 9: which is if you have these feelings, how much are
• 22:13
  Speaker 9: you showing them in session? That's kind of what I
• 22:16
  Speaker 9: what I think was part of the question too, like
• 22:17
  Speaker 9: if you are having judgments like will your client pick
• 22:21
  Speaker 9: up on that? Even if you think, oh, I'm not
• 22:23
  Speaker 9: expressing that or I don't really have you know, even
• 22:26
  Speaker 9: if I feel a certain type of way, I'm able
• 22:27
  Speaker 9: to still sit here and work through these things with
• 22:30
  Speaker 9: this client.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: But maybe the client is picking up on that, right,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: And again, sometimes there is a way to be honest
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: with somebody and challenge them, But I don't know about
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: your philosophic But mine is I want to earn the
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: right to do that. So, like, I want a relationship
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: to be so strong that whenever if if Brian's my patient,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: he's saying, you know, jim Dy think that I'm out
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: of line on this, I want to have earned the
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: right to say I know where you're going with this.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I know what you're.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Trying to do. I think your heart's in the right place.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: But here's why I think that's self sabotaged. Here's why
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: I think you're it's not going to get what you want, buddy,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: And I want to approach it in a way that
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: he goes, Okay, you're not attacking me. You're you're trying
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: to help me, but you're nudging me and saying this
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: is probably not helpful.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Do you really preface it?
• 23:09
  Speaker 9: Though? I do this a lot because I have clients
• 23:11
  Speaker 9: who will say that, like, I want you to be
• 23:12
  Speaker 9: really honest with me. But usually I will say, hey,
• 23:14
  Speaker 9: I feel like we've built a lot of rapport up,
• 23:16
  Speaker 9: so I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge this here for a minute,
• 23:19
  Speaker 9: Like I really set the.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Tone the mood.
• 23:22
  Speaker 9: Okay, yeah, you got it.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Always lead with body shame.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: That's yeah rule number one in the ethics.
• 23:34
  Speaker 7: What you say, I couldn't hear you over your tiny day,
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: mister President Brian.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: In a past episode of the show, you shared with
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: us that you've been through therapy, that that's been good
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: for you in life, and you know, in your relationship
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: working through therapy stuff, did you pick up on a
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: vibe that like, Okay, this person's on my side, they
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: agree with me, or did they have like a balance
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: of challenging you as well?
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: The Uh, there have been multiple kind of rounds of therapy.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: Almost all is as like a maintenance measure.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: I think we talked about about when I lost my
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: brother and uh, and it was like, well, however, I
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: think I feel I suspect there's a lot of things
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: that I'm not aware of, and so I went to
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: a grief therapist and uh, I got fired.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: You get out.
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, look, I don't want to say podcasters are
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: superior psychological breed.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: But in your book, mind you very strong. Did it
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: completed it well?
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: I mean essentially what would happen is I would do
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: a one mic podcast for it, and he was very
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: you know, and I would talk through all my things
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: and all this stuff and then you know, what was
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: weekly became every other week, and then I was like,
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: so you know what maybe once a month and he
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: goes or it's like he's like, you seem like you're
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: past this.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I kind of am okay, great, Yeah, yeah, you agreed
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: with them though you thought I think I'm probably fine.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: Well, and especially because like the moment he said that,
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: and to be honest, like a fear that I had
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: going into therapy. I think we talked about this before,
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: is that there is a financial incentive to make sure
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: that I always need more therapy. Sure, And so it
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: really impressed me, like for him to say, I mean,
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: certainly come back if there's something you want to work on,
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: but you know, I don't see what else to do.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, did that? I mean, it's it's hard to ask
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: this question.
• 25:35
  Speaker 7: Do you think you would have been more likely to
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: continue regular therapy had you continued going regularly or do.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: You think you have a Do you think that kind
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: of having that.
• 25:46
  Speaker 7: Release from therapy with the invitation to come back if
• 25:50
  Speaker 7: and when you need it again, do you think that
• 25:53
  Speaker 7: helped to hurt your your relationship to therapy.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: I guess what I'm asking.
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: Oh, I think it I think I am the biggest
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: evangelist for therapy among my friends. And when they bring
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: up the you know, aren't they jo psychic vampires, It's like, well.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: Maybe just that, Yeah, there's so much more. Prostitution is
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: a big part of it.
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: But but you know, I I hold up my experience
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: as an example, and uh, now, nowadays, here's an interesting thing.
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: I think what I wanted out of therapy or don't
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: the continued weekly experience I now get with success coaching
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: because in really the success coach is not telling me
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: any uh, any voodoo for success. It's quite simply like
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: I spend an hour announcing what I intend to get done,
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: what I'm working on, where I'm at or whatever, and
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: then something wonderful happens. There is a deadline, and then
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: one week later, as that Thursday appointment gets closer around Tuesday,
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: I start asking myself, what do you, hey, man, if
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: you want to show up with a story about why
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: I didn't get done, here are a bunch of really
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: good stories. More just throwing it out there, maybe you
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: could do the dang thing.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that accountability goes a long way. So Nick, you've
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: worked in the trenches of rehabs. It's easy to not
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: love everybody that walks in there.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, surprisingly easy. Yeah.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: Well, and the thing like the thing that kind of
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: stuck out to me as far as like being non judgmental,
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: I think part of this comes with experience, because like
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: early on working in drug and alcohol treatment, I felt
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: like I kind of got arrogant as a new therapist
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: and being like, Okay, like this person they're going to
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: do well. I can tell they're you know, they're going.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: To be okay.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: And then this person, Nope, they don't have it this time.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: They're going to go back out, they're going to relapse,
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: they're going to come back another time, so.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: And so forth.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: And I learned very quickly that I was wrong one
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: hundred percent of the time. Yeah, almost always wrong. And
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: then I kind of realized like, oh, I'm not in
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: the game. I'm making predictions, and I have to start
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: treating everybody the same. And I think that's part of
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: the where the judgmental piece can become a factor is
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: as a therapist, if I've got if I've got two
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: people in a drug and alcohol treatment program, and I
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: get the sense that one of them is taking it
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: very seriously and one of them is just fucking around
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: trying to avoid their probation officer, and I'm going to
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: devote time like, oh, I'm going to devote more time
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: to this person. And that's a judgment call based off
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: of what I'm seeing from them reality at what I've
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: kind of learned is as like, well, I need to
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: understand that everybody is in the preparation stage of change
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: for something. One person may be in the preparation stage
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: of change for quitting alcohol. Another person maybe in the
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: preparation stage of change for getting off probation. But they're
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: both in preparation doing something. Yeah, So instead of dividing
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: up my efforts and being more serious about this one person,
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: what I need to do is I need to just
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: change what my role is and be one hundred percent
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: committed to each of them, but from the whatever perspective
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: that they need interesting. Yeah, you know another Well, I
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: was gonna say, like, you know, you said you can't
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: work with you have a tough time working with people
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: have hurt children right well, in drug and alcohol treatment.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: That's everybody.
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, if they have parents or if they are parents, yes,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: they have seriously screwed up their children. Some of them
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: have lost parental rights. That can become very difficult to
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: deal with, But you have to understand that, Like you
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: have to approach it from this perspective of like there
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: were a series of events and conditions that led to
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: this happening. It wasn't just one day they decided to
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: be shitty to their kids, right, it was it was
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: a lifetime of trauma that they passed on to their children.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is I think goes back to the
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: letter because one of the things the writer asked us was,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: do you think that there's ever a situation where you
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: believe that you are impartial? You believe that you are
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: non judgmental. But it's possible that it's it's in there anyway.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: And I don't know about YouTube. It's one hundred percent
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: that's been true for me. And I've had supervision or
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: I've had consultation with colleagues where as we're talking about it,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: they can detect it and they'll be like, hey, man,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: you seem a little edgy when you talk about that
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: particular case, Like what are you talking about? And they're like, no,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Like everything changes, dude, Like your demeanor changes, Like you
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: you're kind of a fun guy, and like you get
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: really solemn and serious and through that kind of like
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: mutual mirroring observation, that's part of how I realize some
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: of the populations that I need to like have an
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: extra like step in my work to understand, like I
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: need to prepare myself for this. I have to monitor
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: myself for certain biases or certain like angles. That's a
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: real thing at least for me that like has come
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: out in my work. I don't know if y'all to
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: relate to that.
• 30:42
  Speaker 9: Well, yeah, you bring up like that internal feeling you
• 30:45
  Speaker 9: have whenever you're in a session and you feel, yeah,
• 30:48
  Speaker 9: maybe you're reacting differently or pushing back, or there's a
• 30:50
  Speaker 9: little more maybe tension, like light tension. And so at
• 30:54
  Speaker 9: some point I think when I noticed that, I just
• 30:56
  Speaker 9: try and back off and evaluate, like why am I
• 30:59
  Speaker 9: bothered by right now?
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Or why am I reacting starting that's going on?
• 31:09
  Speaker 9: This this kind of brings up for me a more
• 31:13
  Speaker 9: modern view on therapists, where younger therapists I think are
• 31:18
  Speaker 9: more comfortable disclosing more about themselves in sessions.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: And that's always been kind of a hot topic.
• 31:25
  Speaker 9: You know. We were all taught from like the really
• 31:28
  Speaker 9: old white guys. You know that we're starting therapy years
• 31:31
  Speaker 9: and years ago, like disclose nothing, like you are a
• 31:34
  Speaker 9: blank page, like this is about your client.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: And don't let them know who you are.
• 31:39
  Speaker 9: And there's been a shift into like, oh, well, some
• 31:41
  Speaker 9: people want their therapists to be human. So I'm okay
• 31:45
  Speaker 9: with a little self disclosure. But I find that's where
• 31:47
  Speaker 9: it gets tricky because these people.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Coming into therapy. I don't know.
• 31:50
  Speaker 9: If I'm going into therapy, you're watching your therapist and
• 31:53
  Speaker 9: listening to them, and if they let anything out about
• 31:57
  Speaker 9: something personal, that's going to stick with me.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Like uh.
• 32:02
  Speaker 9: Peter mentioned this earlier tonight. He was like his therapist
• 32:07
  Speaker 9: had dogs like in the office with them when they meet. Yeah,
• 32:11
  Speaker 9: really interesting, right, we love dogs, but we are not
• 32:16
  Speaker 9: dog people, and so that's fine.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: It's not though, I'm not okay with it.
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: No.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So he was like, this room right now, I
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: will take it. I'm okay. I'm comfortable in who I
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: am being.
• 32:42
  Speaker 9: So he was like, you know, the she had an
• 32:45
  Speaker 9: older dog for a while that would just go and
• 32:46
  Speaker 9: lay next to Peter. She's like, oh, he doesn't like anyone.
• 32:49
  Speaker 9: I'm like, of course, they like the one person that's
• 32:51
  Speaker 9: not a dog.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: He's like, that dog was cool.
• 32:54
  Speaker 9: He's like, but then she brought in this other dog
• 32:56
  Speaker 9: for a while, but come up and like lick me
• 32:57
  Speaker 9: and like be all over me. And he's like, he
• 33:04
  Speaker 9: was like, I you know, can I say I don't
• 33:07
  Speaker 9: want your dog to be like y'all? Like I don't know,
• 33:09
  Speaker 9: just likes the salt of your tears. That's fine, Yeah,
• 33:11
  Speaker 9: pretty much. They're divicious. So anyway, I say that as
• 33:15
  Speaker 9: kind of a lighthearted example of like he knows where
• 33:18
  Speaker 9: his therapist stands when it comes to like animals, and
• 33:20
  Speaker 9: he's like, well, I don't feel like I can really
• 33:21
  Speaker 9: tell her, Hey, I would like your dog to not
• 33:25
  Speaker 9: be on the couch next to me looking my face
• 33:27
  Speaker 9: while I'm crag.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like he likes the authenticity that that
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: she sort of is who she is.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is fine. He never commented on
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: that to me.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I've definitely met therapists over the years that are very
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like about being who they are, and they have this
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: doctor phil energy of like apologetically myself the fuck you
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: you know, get on board or get out, and it's
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: like part of me admires that they do that up front,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: like put that on your website. Religious, yes, yeah, like
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: get it out there, like just be really loud about it.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Like good.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: That way people can make an informed decision. But the
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: ones who that and then you get in there and
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: then they're like, you know, I do what I do
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: and like you just is my program. It's sort of
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: like I don't think they're gonna be very effective.
• 34:07
  Speaker 9: All right, there's not a space for your client to
• 34:09
  Speaker 9: be there if you're taking up that space.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, see that's not a problem for me because I
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: just don't feel that.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: No, I'm just mostly anti therapy.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Your personality is described as beige.
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: I don't feel that's serious.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: I know, I don't feel I'm that interesting. You're not so.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Wow, you're the most interesting person in this room. The
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: sleeping dog.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: I'm not even gonna fight it.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: But yeah, your personality does not dominate with your therapy.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: To the writer, I don't.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: I think judge being judgmental is one of those things
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: that I don't think you can control it.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: I think at best you become aware of it.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: It's a great question, though, writer, because I think there's
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: something a lot of people wonder is I assume the
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: therapist I'm gonna meet with is really trying to get
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: to know me. They want to see my perspective. But
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I am gonna always wonder, like, Hey, if you really
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: did have beef with what I'm saying, If I'm telling
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: you I'm robbing a bank, or I'm a criminal or.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I'm committed, I would have to tell then.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, you're a nark. Oh I didn't know you were
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: a snitch therapist. Okay, log that in mind. Listeners, Jim
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: and Nika were a fucking nark, all right. And Jacob,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: he'll want to what's the scam.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: As long as you come in.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: He just wants the weddest beacon. It's a good question
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: to ask.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Writer. I'm glad talk about it.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: We are going to take a quick break, and when
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: we come back, we're talking about being in a healthy
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: relationship with somebody who refuses to work on themselves.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: You're listening to pod Therapy.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: Today's episode is brought to you by Smitty Scoop, Mason Miller,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: Tess Miller, Biler, t Harris, Anna, Marie in the Canes,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: Myra and Sam Cone. And if you'd like to sponsor
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: the show, become a therapiser patreon dot com, slash therapy trivia.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: We got some leftover trivia?
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: All right, us warm them up groups.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Here we go, all right, so much.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: He's got a list off a few things. You buzz
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: in when you know what the what the.
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: Common theme is, what they all have in.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Listen off colors you might buzz into if he swipes
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: at it.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: Get the buckling for the nineties comedy of like they
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: drive like.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: This, Okay, here we go, Citizen Kane, Jaws, e t,
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: Saving Private Ryan.
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: Movies that don't live up to the hype there is.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: You're Close, Spielberg Ryan's Closer.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Didn't get like an Oscar or something.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: Oscar Losers, classic films that never want the best picture.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: The best picture. I was like, they didn't win something
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: they should have.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Those are not all Spielberg films.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: Citizen Kane, Hurricane.
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: And Saving Private Rhyman. Saving Private Ryan felled because of
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: the Weinstein Company, because they had their marketing machine. What
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: won that year was do you guys remember no, no Shakespeare.
• 37:30
  Speaker 7: In Love, no superior movie Shakespeare.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Oh wow.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: God.
• 37:41
  Speaker 7: That was in the same time period that American Beauty
• 37:44
  Speaker 7: beat out the Hurricane. I think or was that that
• 37:48
  Speaker 7: might have been Kevin Spacey over Denzel Okay, damn, oh yeah,
• 37:52
  Speaker 7: that might have been that. Same for for best Actor. Yeah,
• 37:57
  Speaker 7: American Beauty.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Was last movie so much.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: I remember the hurricane.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Do you think that you're partial to it because of
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the Louisiana thing? I feel like that was a sensitive
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: issue for you, so the hurricane would hit harder for you.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: It's not about that. Oh, that's about a box it's
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: a boxing movie. It was poorly named. It's not really
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: a boxing movie. It was a justice but it's about
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: a boxer.
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: Also, also, didn't it was? Was it history? Unkind to
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: the story that they were telling? Uh?
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: They I thought it was just a guy that went
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: to prison on justly? Yes? But did was it not unjustly?
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: We all agree on that.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: White girl murder mystery? And so he has all the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: tea on all these unsolved cold cases.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: Okay, we'll do one more knife gnome pneumonia.
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: Oh but where's the only start with the wrong letter?
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, words that don't start within.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: N words for two thousand, Alex, the next one psychology.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: And then wrinkle. They all have a silent first letter.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: Okay, very good.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Brian's one for two on this He's doing really good.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: Wait did you say say the word wrinkle?
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Wrinkle because it doesn't do maybe?
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: Or maybe Jacob didn't know how to spell.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Louisiana school?
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: Did you say grandma had lots of.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: I read the book Time.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Gotta Be the Name?
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a Louisiana. We spelled that one with the cute.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Crinkle. Oh my god? All right, Brian's winning. Can you
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: be in a healthy relationship with someone who refuses to
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: work on themselves? Hi, guys, my partner and I have
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: been together for about three years. Like most relationships, things
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: were pretty great in the beginning. He was outgoing, funny, social,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: and seemed generally happy. I knew he had a difficult childhood,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: including some neglect and possibly verbal abuse, but I didn't
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: realize how much it had affected him. As we've gotten
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: more comfortable with each other, I've started to see a
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: different side of him. Depression seems to be a much
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: bigger part of his life than I originally understood. He's
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: often withdrawn, unmotivated, and just down. It's not that he's
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: unhappy with me or that our relationship is bad. He
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: just seems to carry this cloud around him much of
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: the time. We've talked about it, and he's tried therapy
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: a couple of times. Both times, he went from maybe
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: five or six sessions, felt like he learned some useful tools,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: and then stopped because he felt he'd gotten what he needed.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: He's not interested in going back right now, and he's
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: also very resistant to the idea of medication. He's had
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: some pretty bad side effects for medications in the past,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: so I understand why he's hesitant. The problem is that
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know what my role is supposed to be
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: in all this. I'm a naturally pretty happy and optimistic person.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I want to be supportive and I try hard to
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: be there for him, but sometimes I feel like his
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: depression is starting to affect me. I find myself wondering
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: how long I can keep trying to lift someone up
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: when they don't seem particularly interested in doing anything differently themselves.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: At the same time, I feel guilty even thinking that way.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: He didn't choose to have a difficult childhood. He didn't
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: choose depression, and I don't want to make him feel
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: like he's a burden. I love him, and I genuinely
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: want this relationship to work. So what am I supposed
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: to do. How do you support a partner with chronic
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: depression without becoming responsible for their happiness? And at what
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: point as being supportive turn into sacrificing your own emotional wellbeing.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: I'd also really like to know whether it's realistic to
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: expect things to change if someone doesn't want ongoing therapy
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: or medication. Can a relationship with someone who's chronically depressed
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: be healthy when they're not actively treating the depression? Thanks
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: for any advice. Anonymous pronouns are she and her.
• 42:18
  Speaker 6: Damn.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: That's a tough one.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's part of depression too, right, Like one
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: of the terrible things about depression is a mental illness.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: It's one of the only mental illnesses that talks you
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: out of treatment.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Like anxious.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: People are so excited, they're like, oh, medicine, fuck, yeah, yeah,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: hook it up, like right, mainline, that shit, right now,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: there's therapy that can make me not have panic attacks immediately, tee,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna back to back therapy sessions. I want this
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: as fast as possible. Depression is like this parasite in
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: the brain that talks you out of doing anything that
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: would possibly change the ecosystem and make it unfriendly to
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: that parasite, and so even whin they ask.
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: The treat, even for things that you know work right,
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: Like I know people you know that just when they
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: go through those spells of depression, they know like, oh,
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: if I go and I play some music, I'll feel better.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: If I go get some exercise, I'll feel better. But
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: it's just you're stuck, like why don't you do that?
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Exactly?
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go for a walk, get some sunshine. Yeah, that
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: would usually help. Are you gonna go do it?
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: No?
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Why I'm depressed? But that's the catch twenty two. So
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: what the writer's talking about, I think we all relate to,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: like we we've all seen this in somebody where they
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: are depressed. It's chronic, and then they're not gonna do
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the things that might help them get better. And then
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: the people around them, the stakeholders, are sort of like,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: what's my role in that?
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: Do I push you toward help?
• 43:36
  Speaker 7: Like?
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Where do we go?
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: Well, so here's my question, and you know, not knowing anything,
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: I'll be curious whether or not what I'm about to
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: say is like anathema or maybe it's different with depression.
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: But what I'm hearing is there's currently a homeostasis in which.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: She has some.
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: Role of accommodating his depression. And if he is, you know,
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: wherever it's thermostat is, he's getting fed enough support that
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: the most comfortable place to be is exactly where he is,
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: which is this amount of depressed, and he's still getting
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: all the things from the outside. It sounds like, well,
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: it seems like she needs to incentivize him to make
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: a change, which means not something bad, like you know,
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: withholding affection or anything like that. But I don't know
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: if we talked about this. My oldest daughter has a
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: touch of the Turets, which in a little bit of OCD,
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: which manifests as a child as her being punishment proof.
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: So you know, normal kids, you reward good behavior, you
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: punish bad behavior, but none of the punishment's stuck. And
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: so we started to learn something called the nurtured heart approach,
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: which is basically, you alter the monetary supply of praise,
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: so all of a sudden, the new baseline is twenty
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: to forty compliments for neutral behavior. And when you see something,
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: even if they do something bad, like I saw you
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: yelling at your sister and you guys got really heated
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: but you know what I really liked is you didn't
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: use your fists. Sometimes you use your fist, and so
• 45:06
  Speaker 5: when that becomes normal, eventually you build up enough credit
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: that that when they do something bad, the worst thing
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: you could do is, you know, let them eat static,
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: you know, and you know, do a reset and so on.
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: And that worked really well in our family, and and
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: it creates a virtuous cycle where everybody is only affecting
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: behavior with praise. Now, I don't know what that what
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: that happens in in an ecosystem where there's a parasite
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: in the brain right where it's like, you know, would
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: you would you withholder Like I'm not participating in your depression.
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: You have to change something if you want us to
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: be a thing. I don't know.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Your story illustrates a really big truth about depression, right,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: which is like I can't yell at you for this
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: because you're depressed. If I'm like, hey, Brian, you're really
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: fucking this.
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: Up, You're right, I really am fucking this up. Fuck no, no,
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: that's not what I want to.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Come out of the hole. Come out of the hole,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: like you're not trying.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: I can't try.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not worthy and you're like, fuck, you can't do
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: anything to them.
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: Would it be the wrong thing to say, I am
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: drawing a boundary boundary, I am not participating in this.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's that wrong.
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: I don't either, honestly, And I mean, even if I guess,
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: the great thing about this is what you're saying is
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: a good for the listener to be able to hear
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: and actually look at what am I doing that's actually
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: playing a role in this, because I think a lot
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: of people don't realize that a lot of people think that, like, well,
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: I'm playing a role if I actively choose to participate. Ah,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: and oh, you're playing a role whether you choose to
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: participate or not, of course, And so it is important
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: to just take a look at, like what am I
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: doing that is either contributing or pushing this way or
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: pulling that way? Yeah, and yeah, I think that that
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: seems like it would be a really good approach to
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: be able to kind of take that same strategy and
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: just be able to, like, you know, on those days
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: when he's feeling really good, what can we do to
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: really reinforce that? And then when it's not just not
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: play along?
• 47:08
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of like a
• 47:10
  Speaker 9: natural consequence sort of and not pulling back per se,
• 47:16
  Speaker 9: but just yeah, it's showing them. Oh, with mental health,
• 47:22
  Speaker 9: usually it's not until your life is disrupted that people
• 47:24
  Speaker 9: really seek help. So I don't think writer, you should
• 47:28
  Speaker 9: actively pull back. I don't think that's what Brian's saying either,
• 47:31
  Speaker 9: like actively punish in some way, but in a lot
• 47:34
  Speaker 9: of ways, it's more like allowing yourself to show that
• 47:36
  Speaker 9: you are affected by his depression, I think is okay.
• 47:41
  Speaker 9: And you sound like a very caring and empathetic person
• 47:44
  Speaker 9: where you want to help your partner.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: You love them.
• 47:46
  Speaker 9: You're like, they didn't ask for this, and they did
• 47:48
  Speaker 9: not You were right about all of those things, but
• 47:51
  Speaker 9: you giving and giving and giving has allowed it to
• 47:54
  Speaker 9: probably go on a little longer, maybe to a higher
• 47:58
  Speaker 9: extreme than it would with other people. And so yeah,
• 48:01
  Speaker 9: I actually don't think you're wrong bright at all to
• 48:04
  Speaker 9: kind of like adjust how you react or respond to
• 48:07
  Speaker 9: their depression because they care about you too, I'm best,
• 48:10
  Speaker 9: I'm guessing, and that they will start to notice if
• 48:14
  Speaker 9: you shift, and then they might be like, oh, shoot,
• 48:17
  Speaker 9: I don't want to lose this person.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: But that authenticity is a gift, you know, giving people
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: the dignity of discomfort, which we talked about on the
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: show before that you know, we want to be their champion.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I want to be their advocate, we want to be
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: their cheerleader. And I'm in an ecosystem with you. You're my
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: co parent, you know you're my spouse, and you know
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: we're in the same boat. Your half of the boat
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: can't sink without bringing my half of the boat down
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: to right, and so like I'm bailing out that water.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Somehow.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: But like, yeah, so bring this together and you get
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: the fuck out of my boat, bring it up down
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: a real favor Jacob's life coaching. He just puts the
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: pistol down and he says, I'll be back in an hour.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Do what you know we all need you to do.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: But no, like that's there's a dignity to that discomfort,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: to telling this other person, Hey, I need you, And
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: this is something we say a lot in addiction treatment
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: to well, tell them you're not responsible for your disease, right,
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: You're not responsible for your illness. You are responsible for
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: your recovery.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: You don't.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: It has effects on me that you choose to live
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: in your illness and to do nothing about it, right,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: and like, let I'm willing to work with you, I
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: don't like working against you. It's like the old canoe simulator,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: like I need us the paddle in the same direction.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: You want to go.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: It's a real test.
• 49:45
  Speaker 7: That we always Oh not that kind of.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, why not, you.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: Know, a let him live, Let the man live.
• 50:02
  Speaker 7: Brian can only come will watching her? Oh, then you'll
• 50:08
  Speaker 7: love the honesty were just talking about.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: Can't get through.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: It, There's like where are There's so many people here,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: and just try to sit in the back.
• 50:19
  Speaker 7: He really watches the first twenty minutes, but the last
• 50:22
  Speaker 7: three hours he just mat through it.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Never gets through the beginning.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: It's just it's like life imitating art or vice versa,
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: you know where like Odysseus had to be tied to
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: the boat to hear the sirens. Yeah, Brian's got to
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: be tied to the theater seat to just be able
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: to make it through the seas.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: I can't stop.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're in this with your partner, and and
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: so like I think it's you're allowed as Whatny was saying,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: to be expressive about that, to be authentic about that,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and a lot of people are so afraid when your
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: partner's depressed or a family member's depressed, that they're fragile.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: They're made of gold, And so you're really really scared
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: to say, your shit is bumming me out, Like your
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: your unwillingness to get help affects this ecosystem of our family,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: and like I'm holding you accountable, like because we're so
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: scared if we do anything to them, we're going to
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: chase them down the hole and they're just gonna jump.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: Do you think that conversation is best because obviously you
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: know there's kind of an ebb and flow with us
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: where you're going to have that conversation more of a
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: high point as opposed to it at a low point.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I like Brian's illustration of solution focused brief therapy.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that's what that is. So focus you're
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: doing it is you're rewarding what's working. Right, So we
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: talk about starving the weeds and watering the flowers.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: So instead of.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Coming at them with negative reinforcement, we're choosing instead to
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: amplify anything positive. I like how this time you only
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: fought for two minutes. Last time it was five minutes.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: You're doing so much better, right, and like okay, like
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: it's used to get a C minus and now you're
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: getting a C. I'm so proud of you. And it's like, again,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: we're just reinforcing what you're doing right as a way
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: to amplify that. Which fun fact, psychology learned that from
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: kindergarten teachers. They would start class and all these kids
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: are all over there. You need to sit down and
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: shut up. We need to get on the reading rug.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: And you're yelling everybody, Bobby, come over here, you know,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: just could get down instead. It's oh, I love how
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Jason is sitting criss cross apples sausage, and then five
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: kids flock over. Oh my gosh, now Brian's doing it,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, everybody's rewarding good behavior gets really
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: big results. And I think this goes back to your point, Nick,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: about what is the timing for this? How do we
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: give that feedback? And sometimes that feedback is not negative
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: feedback as Brian was talking about, it's solution focused feedback.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: It's hey, I noticed that you went outside and checked
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: the mail today. I'm really proud of you. I know
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: that you're just Sunlight's good for you, getting steps and
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: is good for you. I know, it's only fifty steps
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: to the end of the driveway here to get the
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: mail and come back in, But you could have put
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: that off and you did it, and I'm really proud
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: of you. I really hope we can do more of that.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Let's do it again, do it again tomorrow. And it's like, Okay,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: that's actually just a compliment. Well that's just a nice thing.
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: But what I like about that is that buried in
• 52:57
  Speaker 5: that is one of the most core things I that
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: it feels like everybody needs, which is boy, do do
• 53:04
  Speaker 5: people love nothing more than feeling noticed and seen?
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 53:08
  Speaker 5: Like That's that's the real gift that comes in that
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: is like I noticed that you got up and went yeah.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: And this is actually a big part of how we treat,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: you know, depression in therapy. I mean, we do have
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: to challenge people because we have to say, hey, I
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: don't think that's helping, Like you're drinking a lot further depression.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's doing it for you. But like
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: any small micro change, even a one percent change. You know,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: in depression work, we talk a lot about the cognitive triangle,
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: you know, the three pieces that we're trying to just
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: move in any amount, and we could probably help depression
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: if we can get any corner to move one of
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: its physicality, like can we get you to exercise, walk,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: do anything that moves your body, that moves you in
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: your environment. One is mental health medicine, so like the
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: biochemistry of the brain. And then the other corner is cognition,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: like the way you're seeing the world. Therapists can only
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: help you with that corner. You need your psychiatrist or
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: your doctor to do the medicine, and you need your
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: partner and your life to move your ecosystem, going to
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: the gym, taking that walk in the sun, taking up
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: a hobby, reading a book, listening to music, whatever it
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: is that makes you happy. I'm going to scam school
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: and buying magic tricks. Yeah, that'll fix a lot of depression.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: When you watch you know, I was rock hard thirteen
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: year old the first time I found Brian.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: That's true. There, I was watching Baywatch. All of a
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: sudden the commercial comes on for.
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: Saying, oh my god, do you want to know what
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: it's like?
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: July the game for you?
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: The dripping stimulator after so title, Thank you, Nick. Some
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: people just call it a seat and you can vamp.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I need to write that that helped.
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean honestly, Yeah, I love all the advice
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: here and I do really like the idea of and
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: not not don't beat yourself up over this, but do
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: take a look at what in what ways do you
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: think maybe you might be contributing that you don't even realize.
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: And again, in the same way that I don't think
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: your significant other is you know, responsible. They did not
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: choose the disease. You did not necessarily choose to kind
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: of be in this situation either, But you found yourself here, yeah,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: which I think happens a lot, she said third year
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: in right, And I do think that, you know, especially
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: when people are dating, it can become a lot easier,
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: I mean easier. You can hide depressive symptoms for a
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: little bit, yeah, and put your best foot forward, but
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: eventually we all return to our status quo.
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: Well, it sounds like they got past an important part,
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: which is that the depression is known to both parties
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: and they've talked about it, yes, which means that she
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: has runway to have an honest conversation where it's like, look,
• 55:51
  Speaker 5: I love you, I don't intend for this to be
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: a threesome, right, your depression right, and so if you're
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: willing to work with me to starve that out, then
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: then we could do this. But if you are choosing
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: the depression over me, then we're gonna have a problem.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: That's fair, And I think a lot of people feel
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: like that's that's a monstrous thing, like oh no, And
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: but then I've also seen the thing where they feel
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: like it's a bait and switch because they're like, well,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, you didn't show all this depression, like, yeah,
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: I was dating somebody new it was pretty great, Like
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: you were a cure for my depression for a while,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: and then it turns out of a chronic severe mental
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: illness in it.
• 56:23
  Speaker 7: Now you bring it up all the time. You're a problem.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe it isn't me, but no, Brian, you bring up
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: a really good point, which is that I think a
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: lot of people are afraid to offer any accountability, any
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: confrontation about that because they're so afraid they're going to
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: break the person, or that they're being cruel or they're
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: being inhumane. And really, therapists, when we have our drothers
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: and we have the opportunity to talk to this what
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: we call the stakeholder the girlfriend. Our advice is usually no,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: we need you to be more honest with this person.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: My therapy will go better with your boyfriend when he's
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: getting the truth from you that you're saying, I love
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: you and this is exhaust and you're choosing not.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: To do you're supposed to do.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: You're supposed to go to therapy once a week, supposedake
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: your medicines every single day. Your therapist is telling you
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: to go do all these new things. You're not listening
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: to him, and I'm just sort of here staring at
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: the mess. This is gonna cost you something, and that'll
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: motivate people to get more help.
• 57:17
  Speaker 7: People forget that just because people are getting help, that
• 57:21
  Speaker 7: person is still an adult.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And treating.
• 57:24
  Speaker 7: That person as an adult, giving them kind of that
• 57:27
  Speaker 7: grace to know that they have fucked up and to
• 57:30
  Speaker 7: know that you still hold them responsible for fucking up,
• 57:33
  Speaker 7: can often kind of kickstart somebody back on that path
• 57:37
  Speaker 7: to like, oh, I am expected to deal with this well.
• 57:42
  Speaker 5: And I think that all of us have ahead times
• 57:45
  Speaker 5: that we have found ourselves in a funk, and we
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: know we're in a funk, and we're just sort of
• 57:49
  Speaker 5: waiting for that exciting incident where it's like like, yeah,
• 57:52
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna get up off this couch as soon as
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: I don't know, something happens.
• 57:55
  Speaker 9: Yeah, they're hoping they'll just feel better tomorrow too.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: It takes a watershed moment a lot of the time
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: because we keep meaning to do something and then all
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: of a sudden somebody says, hey, I see this problem.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: It's obvious to me now, and you go, oh, okay,
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: that that just woke me up, right, Like I needed
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: that kind of like shuffle the deck moment now, all right,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I feel motivated because the equilibrium, as Brian was talking
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: about earlier, the status quo has changed, And you're right,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: when you hit this place in depression where like the
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: depression can coexist with my life as it is, guess
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: what it will like, something's got to change that counterbalances it.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: And that's whenever somebody's actually stimulated to make the right move.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: I was stimulated to make a canoe. Stimulated if you will.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: This is a tough one, though, writer, And you know,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: if you're out there and you know you relate maybe
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: to the writer or maybe to the writer's partner and
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: you've experienced depression. We just want to remind you that
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: what we said earlier is very, very true. You're gonna
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: hear this internal voice that tells you there's no point.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: Why try therapy it didn't work before. Why try medicine
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: it didn't work before. I've gone to the gym plenty
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: of times, I've gone for walks plenty of times. I'm
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: still depressed. It's not going to get better. And we
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: need you to remember that that is part of the
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: delusion of that disease. It is lying to you, and
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: if you let it lie to you long enough, it
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: will steal your life.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: It will steal your.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Relationships, and for some people it does literally steal their
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: lives because they believe all the way to the point
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: where they accept this lie, that their life has no value,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: that there is no hope. And so with depression, you
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: have to hold your nose and dive into the cold water.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: You have to do something really uncomfortable every single day.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: It gets easier and easier every day.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: That you do it.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: And the good news is it is a curable, treatable illness.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: But it is an illness, and the moment you forget
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: that that's true, you will succumb to it, and then
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: you won't let people help. You won't listen to your doctor,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: you won't listen to your therapist, you won't listen to
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: your stakeholders. So if you're out there today and you're
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: feeling those feelings, you're experiencing clinical depression, get fucking help.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Start that work. You have to do it. It is
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: the right thing to do. And if you don't, don't,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: this girlfriend in the letter is.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: Gonna leave you.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know, or or whoever is in your life,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: everything will be lost or this particular lady.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: Sure, but.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 9: Come on.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: Around, just be happy.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna tell you right now this don't get a
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: stimulate itself.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 10: Come on, I need you to look around, and need
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 10: you to take a step back, and need you look
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 10: at your life. I need you to get your ship together,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 10: or I'm gonna slap you right.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 7: Across the full arm. Not like a little slat, big slap.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 7: That's right, coach, that Bob Newhart skit. It's like, just
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 7: stop it, just stop it.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: we're talking about when is an argument more than an argument.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: You're listening to pod therapy.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: Today's episode was brought to you by a Smithy Scoop,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: Mason Miller, Tess Miller, Biler, t Paris te Monico, Oscar Swan, Rose, Anna,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: Marie am McCain, Myra and Sam Cone.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: And if you would like to sponsor.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: The show, become a therapy ser at Beatrian dot com
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: splash therapy. All right, here we go, Justify affirmed, Seattle Slew,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: American Pharaoh.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 7: Ohio, Kentucky Derby winners or no, no, no ship?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: Mmmm?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: Is it the.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: Ryan for the rebound? I said? I was like, no,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: that's not quite right.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: Nice okay, Koala bear, water.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Bears, bears that aren't bears.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: What was the rest of the list, Red Panda, teddy
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: bear and bear cat?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 11: Okay, all right, I want to do one more? Yeah Ostrich, Yes.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 7: Birds.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: The animals, birds that don't fly.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: Oh I forgot Kiwi was a bird. I was not
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: a fruit. So two birds and a fruit. I was
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: really confused.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, finally easy on me for these categories. Met them
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: so much bad at them?
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Well, Brian Undisputed Championship.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 7: I've been I've been on an animal video kick lately
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 7: on the socials and uh mostly cute animals, but one
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 7: was an ostrich that attacked a giraffe.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: It was like this was a video in the wild.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: Wow, this ostridch was going after a giraffe and kept
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 7: going after it.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: The draft like kicked it a couple of.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 7: Times, got it away, and finally the giraffe just hit
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 7: it and killed that bird.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: Because the fucked around and found down.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 7: I mean the draft hit that ostrich hard like three
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 7: or four times, and then it swung its head down
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 7: and did like the full on.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: They swing their head like a morning star mace.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, I did not know that.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: It's crazy. Did you see the one that put like
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: crumpled that? Oh my god?
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: See the hippo versus the alligator? Oh we wait what No,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: there was a hippo and an alligator. Was like they
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: were facing off. They were going to go after each other,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: and it's in slow mo and you see the alligator
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: open its mouth and it's just going to go take
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: a bite and right at this hippo hippo just opens its.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: Mouth twice as igh.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: Bites his head completely off, bit.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: The head off of the allegy. Oh my god, I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: did they.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 7: I did see one and the same one that was
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 7: hyenas jumping on to a hippop that's the one I saw,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 7: and that rule and the and the hippo h with
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 7: like two or three of them on him and like
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 7: biting him, just goes out into the river where all
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 7: the crocodiles are. Just drops the hyaenas in the crocodile
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 7: and then right off out of the river and like
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 7: what he's getting out because the crocodiles obviously are not
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 7: trying to funk with the hippop, they're not even fucking
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 7: with it, but like they rip these hyas off of it.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: It's like that pausing moment where you hear Morgan Freeman's voice,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: he knew.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: You.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 7: That is one of the main reasons that I don't
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 7: try to kill hippopotamuss.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, only one.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: Of the top top top two.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: I would say he was on a quest for years.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: Dont they know what they did?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: All?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: Last question for the night.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: It's an argument more than an argument. Hi, guys, I've
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: been thinking about something in my relationship that i'd really
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: like to get your perspective on. My partner and I
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: generally have a good relationship. We love each other, get
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: along well, and have a lot of fun together, but
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: we do argue. Sometimes we have pretty heated disagreements, usually
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: about relatively minor things. We cool off, talk about it,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: and eventually move on. At least I thought that was normal.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: My partner sees it very differently. Whenever we have an argument,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: it seems like they immediately start questioning what the argument
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: means about our relationship. A disagreement about something small can
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: turn into a conversation about whether we're compatible, whether we
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: communicate well enough, or whether there are bigger issues we
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: need to address. I've started noticing how much relatetionationship advice
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: on social media seems to reinforce this idea. There are
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: endless posts about red flags toxic relationships, emotional unavailability, narcissism,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: attachment styles, and things your partner should never do. Sometimes
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: it feels like the message the algorithm has you seing
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: these things that's a red flag. Sometimes it feels like
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: the message is that if your relationship involves conflict, you're
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: with the wrong person. And I'm starting to wonder if
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: that's affecting my partner's expectations in our relationship. I don't
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: think arguing is necessarily a sign that a relationship is unhealthy.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: People are going to disagree. Two people can love each
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: other and still get annoyed, misunderstand each other, have different opinions,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: or say something stupid when they're frustrated. To me, the
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: important question is what happens after the disagreement? Can you
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: calm down, listen to each other, apologize when necessary, and
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: move forward? But I also don't want to use all
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: cuple argue as an excuse for ignoring legitimate problems. So
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: where is the line? When does normal relationship conflict become
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: a red flag? Is it the frequency of the arguments,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: how intense they are, whether the same issues keep coming up,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: how you treat each other during the argument, or what
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: happens afterward? And I'm particularly curious about the influence of
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: social media. Are we becoming less tolerant of normal relationship
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: conflict because we're constantly being told that disagreements hurt feelings or.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 7: Communication problems start saying crazy things like social media might
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 7: not be.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: Good for us? How dare you? Let's not go crazy here?
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: I can subscribe? Are these things telling us that every
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: amount of conflict is evidence of a toxic relationship? Maybe
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: my partner is currently recognizing problems that I'm minimizing, or
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: maybe we're both absorbed. We both absorbed the idea that
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: a healthy relationship is one where you rarely disagree and
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: anything else means something is fundamentally wrong. How do you
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: tell the difference between where too imperfect people who sometimes
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: argue and our arguments are telling us something important about
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: this relationship. I'd really love to hear your thoughts, Signed anonymous,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: no pronouns given. People talk so much about the love languages.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: Thing people do not talk about argument languages. Like people
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: argue differently.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: Is that a thing?
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: Or is this a business opportunity for you? Can you
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: write a book real quick?
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: Any guy's cooking it right now.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 7: But like, people argue differently, and like what the writer said,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 7: and a couple of those things like not hurting each
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 7: other's feelings during the art, not saying things during the
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 7: argument that you can't take back.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: You know, there are there are.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 7: Argument styles out there that Yeah, I mean, it's a community,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 7: it's a it's a very stressful piece of communication, and
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 7: not everybody is good at it, and I'd say most
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 7: people are not good at it. And it's not something
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 7: that we that we talk about as as something that
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 7: needs to be gotten through because I mean, you are
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 7: going to have disagreements yea, and being able to work
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 7: through them is important.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: You guys fight with your spouses. I remember we went
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: to premarital counseling when we were engaged, and we got
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: in there and we almost got booed out of the
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: room because we got buried very young, we hadn't been
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: together very long. And so here we are in primaral
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: counseling and it was like a class and so like
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: here we are in this class about six other couples,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: most of them are older than us, and the counselor
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: is asking everybody, like, tell us about a fight you've
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: had in your relationship, or right up on the board
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: and use this as part. They get to us and
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: we're not even trying to be obnoxious. We're just young
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: and stupid, and we're like, we haven't fought.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: Jim still trying not to be I'm trying every day.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: I've never seen Jim try. That's honestly the obnoxious about Jim.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they boot us out of the room. There's like,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: you're not qualified to be married, but we did that
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: shit anyway because you did argue or they never had argued,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, but this goes with the writers
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: saying where it's like, oh, is arguing is conflict a
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: sign of incompatibility?
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: And like, obviously that can be silly.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: I think it also depends too on previous relationships or
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: relationship experience. Like when you get somebody who's been in
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: a long term relationship prior or several relationships, and then
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: you get one person who's never been any serious relation
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: talking about I just it just kind of came up.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: This could be anybody.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 7: Could anybody could be literally anybody Hashike say, Peter, Ye.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: You'll never say that.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: But yeah, like you kind of have expectations, Like somebody
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: who's never had been in a serious relationship before, their
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: main source of what a relationship looks like is either
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: their parents or TV in movies.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, now social media.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 5: And the problem with feeding our brains with TV and
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: movies is if they are showing depicting an argument, it
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 5: almost certainly is in service of a narrative, which means
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: at the end of the argument they discover something very
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 5: important and it was that the process that was vital
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: to do it. And of course, real arguments number one
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 5: are very rarely about the things that we're pretending to argue,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: everything from we're hungry or cranky, or tired or stressed,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: or we have an incoming deadline. Right now, my middle
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 5: child is about to go off to college, and boy
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: is she'd be in a real fun time, just mean
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: to everyone. And the thirteen year old doesn't understand me,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: so me and the twenty two year old doesn't understand.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 5: It's like she's terrified, that's why she's insufferable. But of
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 5: course you know, and in fact, all the times that
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 5: this I think is a public there are many times
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 5: that I am confused why my partner is so mean
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 5: to me. But then I always remember, Bonnie doesn't get mean.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 5: She gets scared, and it comes out being mean. But
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 5: I have to remind myself again and again again. And
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: usually it's it's in the middle of us yelling that
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 5: I realized, oh, she's terrified, what might she be terrified?
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: And then all of a sudden, the list is you
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: can address.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: That I'm wearing my creepy clown makeup again.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: That's when she gets.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: What is your deal? Dressed like penny Wise?
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 9: The way you like, I feel like something that stuck
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 9: out to me is working with clients who have yeah,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 9: not maybe had great examples of communication or fighting fairly.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 9: But what I will see sometimes is when there's a
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 9: fight and that urge to flee or like oh, maybe
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 9: this relationship just isn't and to be it comes from
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 9: a sense of like insecurity and a lot of times
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 9: some trauma. You know, like they've been through some really
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 9: shitty things as a kid, and.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: So there they're scared.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 9: That's probably a high up on the list emotion there,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 9: and it kind of feels chaotic internally for them. It's
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 9: not oh, this is a fight and we'll get through it.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 9: It's this is a fight. Is this the end? Every
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 9: time there's a fight, is this the end? And that's
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 9: that's hard to watch. It's sad, but yeah, you have
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 9: to work through like reassuring and letting them know some
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 9: of this is normal.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: It's normal to fight. I know.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 9: The writer as set next like how much fighting is okay?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: Or what makes the relationship you know healthy? Still, Well,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: you're found up.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: A really good point because like the people's ability to
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: tolerate conflict as a concept and an experience is really
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: important like for relationship duration and also for personal maturity.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: There are folks that have a skittishness, right, and they're
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: afraid of conflict because in their lived experience, that is
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: the worst possible thing can happen. Yeah, it means you
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: don't love me. It means we're going to end. And
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: so like they don't engage in a conflict in a
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: way that's useful.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: You know that.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: I want to hear your opinion. I want you to
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: stand up for yourself. It's okay to push back on me,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: don't run away. And I think what the writer's talking
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: about is another end of the spectrum, which can be
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: if we're having conflict, then there's no point to our relationship.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: Apparently it's not supposed to be this hard, and like,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: that's really hard to negotiate with two because then you
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: have to chase your partner and go are you looking
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: for a way out?
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: Like where are you at with this?
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: Because you're throwing your hands up in the air and saying, well,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: I guess this will never work, and it's like, no,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: this is the part where we maintenance our house, like
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: we have to put our shit together. It's like, no,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: we just shouldn't be in this house. It should already
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: be you know, in its final mode, we shouldn't have
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: to rebuild it. I'm going to move out, and it's like,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: how do I get you to come back? How do
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: I get you to lean in when you're convincing yourself.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing more of this. I don't know if y'all
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: are seeing this in relationships, but I think, especially because
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: of social media, the popular refrainer here nowadays is it's
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: not supposed to be this hard, and like that's a
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: tough phrase, because there's true to that, Like I mean,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: if you're constantly fighting, and I've had couples. I don't
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: know if y'all related doing couples therapy stuff, but I've
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: had couples where I thought, I fucking hope you guys divorce.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: I hope you divorce.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 5: Before answer.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: You guys just give the fuck up.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: And I've had conversations like have you ever thought about
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: not continuing? I don't think it's working out, Like there's
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: people that you wonder, like I don't think y'all should
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: be together, or I don't see a way that we reconcile.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: You guys are just going to keep tearing each other apart,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: and like maybe now is not the time you should.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: Be in a relationship.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: There is such a thing as it's not supposed to
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: be this hard. But where do we put that line?
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: Like that's a hard thing to qualify?
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think it depends on the couple.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 9: Like some couples do argue or like bicker things like
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 9: that or and I think that's their Norman.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: They're okay with that.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 9: But if one person is saying, I don't like this,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 9: I wish we fought less than I think it's very
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 9: personal like for.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 7: Me, like like if you want to if you want
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 7: to have a disagreement with me, and I'm really happy
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 7: to have like disagreements with people, my wife, anybody, you're not,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 7: I'm not avoidant of the disagreement.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 12: What I do hate and what will uh, what will
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 12: frustrate me is like bickering is the like is the
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 12: is there like the one upsmanship or just like the
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 12: kind of.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: Arguing to argue, like any any of that, that's it.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 7: Any of that, like the pointless bickering starts to that
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 7: that will that will get at me and make me
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 7: really frustrated, and then it is very difficult for me
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 7: to continue on with any kind of intelligent conversation after that,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 7: you know, once I get frustrated, once I get frazzled,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 7: like then I have to kind of unwind that first
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 7: before I before I can move on. And if like
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 7: s J, I will tell you, like if somebody is
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 7: on me with that, I'll just leave. I'll just I'll
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 7: just leave the situation because I know that I can't
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 7: keep on.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: I know that I can't be productive in that. Yeah,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: but you can't leave every situation.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 7: So like if I find my in that situation in
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 7: like a work environment, if I'm if I'm there with
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 7: a client or something like that, well now I can't
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 7: just leave. So now I have to shut down in
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 7: different ways. Now.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: Now, now they're all.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 7: These different things, and like we don't, I don't know,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 7: we don't. We don't dig into any of those.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 9: And because paying attention to what you like, want or
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 9: don't want from that, you're like that's a boundary.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 7: Like this just doesn't work for me, Like you can
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 7: tell me why I'm wrong all day long. You can
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 7: explain that to me.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 5: So, uh, here's an interesting I don't know exercise that
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 5: Bonnie and I did was when we were not in
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 5: an argument. We when we when things were good. We
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 5: had a conversation about how are arguments supposed to go,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 5: and in that not passionate moment, I was able to
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 5: we unpack the fact that my parents raised me. My
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 5: mom used to always say, never go to bed angry,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 5: which meant if you had, you know, if we were
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: both angry, then clearly there was more work to do now.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 5: And then eventually the discussion revealed It's like, well, maybe
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 5: you're just poking out a sword. Maybe we're both tired
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 5: with you why we're yelling at each other. Maybe we
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 5: press pause on things and go to bed and then with.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: A let's see how this looks after breakfast exactly exactly.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 9: I always hated that to the never go to bed
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 9: angra I'm like, no, I'm a proponent of that, like
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 9: just go get some rest and yeah, if you need
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 9: to reave, visit the.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: Dude sleeping has cured so many times.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: So this is the therapy version of the show must
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: go on.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, because I've had the same conversation too,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 4: like like letting my partner know, if you're going to
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: confront me with something, here are the best times to
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: do it, Like do it right after I've eaten.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let me see if I can squeeze you in.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but definitely on Thursdays and at night, I get
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: super tired and like I can go to bed in
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 4: ten seconds. As soon as I lay down, I can
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: just close my eyes and I'm out. If I have
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 4: to try to fight sleep to have a conversation, I'm
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: no good. Like that's going to be miserable.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 7: Used to like bring me this is this isn't conflict,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 7: but like she used to just like bring me information.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: Like after I had gotten in bed, I would get
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: in bed and then she would come in and.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 6: Tell me something today as his eyes are closed, like
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 6: me to know about it.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: For a while it was like baby, yeah, I can't
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 3: do that. You got to tell me these things. Is great, Jacob.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: They hit the second tower, Okay, fine, tell me in
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: the morning. It was the morning.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: She woke you up.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: He was in Australia at the time. A lot of gigs,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: you know, from Australia. They hit the tower the other direction.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: Do we what do we think about the idea that
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: that sometimes you're having arguments and that there is a
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: deeper meaning to the argument, that there is a pattern
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: or there's a style or there's something coming up and
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: you're looking at that and saying, this needs to be true.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: Don't minimize this, don't just shrink this down to couples fight, shrug.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: There is something here, and it is telling about our dynamic.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: There is because I could think of like fights where
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: there's a jealous member of the couple or an insecure
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: person and they're drumming up all kinds of conflict all
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: the time. You know, I want to track you on
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: to go through your stuff. Who is so and so?
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: When did you talk to so and so? And like, okay,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: So we're patternedly having that kind of fight over and
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: over again. It's exhausting our relationship, and every time it
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: comes to an end, you just shrug and say, couples
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: fight what you're gonna do. That's an example of I
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: could see the partner going, no, this, this tells us something.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: There's a meaning to this. There's a meaning to us.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 5: And you keep in mind couples fight what you're gonna do.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 5: That serves two purposes, and they could be misconstrued when
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 5: somebody says that, that may mean I don't think going
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 5: for further along is going to be productive. Yeah, But
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 5: the other one is hearing, oh, we're having a new
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 5: argument about whether or not this argument is okay. And
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 5: so if you can get on the same page and
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 5: essentially have the team decision where it's like when we
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 5: get to a point where we both acknowledge the point
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 5: of disagreement, we both note it, and then this is
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 5: old man talk dream on it a few nights and
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 5: then let your subconscious process it and decide at a
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 5: time that you're not going to be cranky and angry.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 5: Then come back and say, how do we feel about that?
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 5: Was that as big a deal as it felt?
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: There's definitely there needs to be a way to right
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: size the amount of conflict in your life, and like
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: you said, sleeping on it getting perspective. On the other hand,
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: I definitely have seen it weaponized. I've got patients that
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: have borderline personality disorder. A really common refrain with BPD
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: is they'll do what It's not always women's men are
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: obviously a BPD two, but we often refer to it
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: as the damsel in distress strategy, where they throw themselves
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: out the window proverbially to see if you love them
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: enough to come get them, and so they'll break up
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: the relationship cause all sorts of chaos start a big fight,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: and it's like this other person's living in a constant
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: state of terror and care because the BPD member of
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: the couple is starting fights and starting conflict and seeming
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: like it they're gonna end the relationship because they want
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: the reassurance of the other partner capitulating and coming after them.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: And then whenever the other partner says, I can't live
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: like this, Like it's constant chaos. You're constantly starting fights,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: there is a tendency on the BPD person to gaslight
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: the other partner and minimize it all. Well, couples fight,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: you just don't have enough lived experience. You just don't
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: know anything about it. Like, no, we keep fighting because
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: you're an insensitive prick and you don't understand my needs.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: And if you would just finally learn that, we wouldn't have.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: This problem anymore.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: And then the partner will come to therapy and go, yeah,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: I was sentenced to therapy by my partner to like
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: learn how to stop them from freaking out all the
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: time and starting fights. And like, as a therapist, sometimes
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: you're untangling that you're going No, the fights have a
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: deeper meaning here, and like I don't want to just
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: minimize it to couples fight. That's not true in this case,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: Like the kinds of fights matter a lot.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so how would the writer know.
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: Have y'all ever heard of the Gotman method?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: Got I think so.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: The Gatmans are a couple. I think they live in
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: the Northwest. They started their own clinic. They did all
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: this research on couple's work, and they have this whole
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: like paradigm, this method they use that a lot of
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: couple's therapists borrow from. I don't subscribe to it, but
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: they have a very popular concept that I do think
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: is research backed, and they refer to it as like
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: So, like basically they say, when a couple's fighting exhibits
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: any of these four traits, you're now in a zone
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: that's no longer okay, Like when these starts happening perpetually,
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: these are not just fights on them to these these
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: are blinking red lights in the dashboard. And the four
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: things are number one criticism, which is different than just
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: having an opinion. It's attacking your partner's core character, attacking
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: their personality, It's one thing to say, I really wish
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: you'd put the milk away. Yeah, it's another thing when
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: you're like, you're the kind of person who doesn't care
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: about others. That's why you don't put the milk away.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: It's like whoa like when when your fights are getting
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: to that level of character assassination, that is not okay,
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: like you're off roading.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 4: But to be fair, if the issue is they're not
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: returning shopping carts, that's fair.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're about you something to say the
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: second horseman is contempt and that's treating your partner with disrespect, mockery, sarcasm.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: So you're not having these faith conversations. Yeah, you're just
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: it's contemptuous, right, you're just being cruel, petty. You're you're
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: morally superior to them, which I don't know if you
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: have seen this, wait till.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: Doctor McGrath, you rascal.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: No, But like I see this a lot where the
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: new moral superiority is one member of the couple saying
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: I read therapy books, I listen to therapy podcasts. I've
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: been to therapy. You haven't, and so like I'm better
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: than you. You need to go figure it out. I've arrived,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: and that's always a weird Have you seen this yet?
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: I've had couples do that. I don't do a couple
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: of oh God, bless you make the worst.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 7: I may have been putting it on there, but I
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 7: heard a dust thing of that in the in the
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 7: tone of this email, Okay, a little little taste, and
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 7: I may have been I may have been putting that
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 7: there myself.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: That may not be there. I may not be I
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: might not be being fair.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: And it's always a tricky thing to try to, like,
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: you know, deal with in couples therapy, because it's like
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: they're trying to talk to the ref like they're coming
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: to me being like, I mean, Jim.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: You and I we get that. You know, I have
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: a bachelor's psychology and I've read all these fucking books.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, you know, but he doesn't get it.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: So you're gonna have to explain to Jim. And I'm like,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I don't like this. I don't like that. You're my death.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 7: I'm a more fully realized person since I understand therapy,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 7: and you and I are going to have to really
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 7: work on my.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: Spouse, my dumb ass spouse. He doesn't get it, and
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: so like, I don't like that. So that's another horseman.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: It's just moral superiority, being contemptuous at the person. The
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: third one is defenseiness, playing innocent. You're the innocent victim,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: always making excuses, deflecting blame, never taking any responsibility, and
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: when you do take responsibility, it's often with this huge
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: grain of salt of like, I'm sorry that you made
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: me act like that.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: And you're like, what the fuck. It's like no, no, but.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: Sincerely, I am so sorry that you made me keep
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: your car.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: I don't want to.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you're Yeah, you just keep saying the wrong things.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I understand.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I'm just being honest, honest.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: You know who ordered the red alert and the last
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: one's stonewalling, and so that's just completely shutting down with drawing,
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: tuning them out, and h you know, for Jacob that works.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: Shutting down works pretty well.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: It works pretty well. But yeah, if we see that perpetually.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 7: And you can't do that with your spouse, right, yeah, yeah,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 7: you can walk, you can do that. If you have
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 7: like a client at work that's bothering you, you can't.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: You can't expect that to be a method that's going
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: to work over time.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: Right, But writer, your question was, at what point are
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: we seeing something that goes above and beyond the typical
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: amount of couples fighting. The Gotman four Horsemen apocalypse is
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: one way to measure that.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, seeing that.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: That's a good indicator light that it's starting to drift
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: into a lane that we don't like anymore, and that
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's incurable. So last question on this, what
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: do y'all think about incompatibility as a concept, Because in
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: couples work, this comes up a lot where people come
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: in and go, we want to work on this, we
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: want to fix this, but we have a fear. The
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: fear is are we just fundamentally incompatible? And they'll they'll
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: ask me that directly and say, part of the therapy
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: we're hoping we do with you is that you reveal
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: to us that you either confirm we are compatible or
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: confirm that we are not. And if we are compatible,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: then help us fix this shit. But if we're not compatible,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: help us separate hostiles.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 5: Eye that's any kind of like permanent incompatibility.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: It's more like.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 5: There are personality types that require more energy to make
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 5: work and personality types that that effortlessly go together, and
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 5: you'll find areas where you've got to do more energy
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 5: unless and then really it's a question of well do
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 5: we both co sign on doing the work to get
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 5: over the fact that somebody has a tendency to be
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 5: depressed or any of that.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 4: See I like I like Brian's example that you brought
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 4: up earlier about like understanding what is really being said
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 4: in an argument. When you can understand your partner this
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 4: is no, this is fear that that's where this is
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 4: coming from. I think that creates compatibility, you know, because
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 4: I don't think any two human beings on Earth are compatible.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 4: I think you kind of develop it over time when
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 4: you have a common goal and you kind of understand,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 4: you know, this is how my partner acts, This is
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: how my partner, these are the emotions that they, you know, experience,
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 4: and then this is how they have trained themselves to
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: react to it. When you understand all of that, then
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 4: you can start to adjust where you're at. They can
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 4: start to adjust where they're at based off of what
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 4: you do. I think that's compatibility.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 7: Just a note, when your partner is angry and yelling,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 7: that's a bad time to explain all the things that
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 7: Nick just says they will not be accepting of all, Like, oh,
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 7: you're just yelling at me because you're afraid.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: I will be the answer I have seen.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 4: There is a couple that immediately came to mind, that's
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 4: not they're they're adjacent to my family, older couple.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 3: They have been married and people.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 4: I think they have been married for about fifty years,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: and it seems to me that the thing that they live.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: For is to fight. Yeah, just.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: Like so bizarre.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they just they will not break up, they will
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 4: not divorce, they won't. But but boy, just the bickering
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 4: back and forth and they just like it's just the.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: Married with children. Well that was I mean, I'm still
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: confused by married with children. I'm still confused about why
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: those do were.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: Together, single income, had a house and two kids.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: Wow, like sales.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: Less.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for real, economics do not add up. So what
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: do you think about compatibility? If a couple saying like,
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: we're here to figure out if we are incompatible, how
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: do you feel about that that question being brought to
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: as a therapist.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 9: No, I think I like what Nick was saying that, Yeah,
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 9: you really have to work on it. I think of
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 9: couples who obviously don't work with couples, but either couples
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 9: I've known in real life or just worked with one
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 9: side of that couple. If one person isn't able to
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 9: be vulnerable or work on it, like some couples, there's
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 9: a person involved who just wants to be right or
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 9: just wants to fight or whatever they're getting out of it.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 9: If they're not able to give when you give and
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 9: like kind of match your energy or change with you,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 9: grow with you, then I don't think you're gonna If
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 9: you can't change and grow together, you're not gonna stay together.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: Like I don't know, that's just a hill all die on.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 9: But part of that is being able to adjust and
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 9: talk through like, hey, what is really bothering you here?
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 9: And if they're like, well I already told you you're
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 9: being an asshole and it's all that's all they care about,
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 9: then you can't really go anywhere from there.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: You can't really have combatibility.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: I think it's a really hard goal to play.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 9: And also just like I know we all know this,
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 9: but just to say it, like the basics, you know,
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 9: if I feel like having children, religion, money, like a
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 9: lot of these things. You kind of have to be
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 9: really close to the same pon. Yeah.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: Well, and I know you're a big proponent of not
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: mixing the races.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 9: Yeah, they're gonna mention the dogs again, So.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, don't Surprisingly, blonde, blue eyed Whitney has thoughts,
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: has some thoughts about not muddying the blood.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: We won't reveal my maiden name right now. We're going
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: to keep that a secret.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: It's very superior. Let's put it that way. It rhymes
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 3: with Fittler. Wouldn't that be the best? When why did
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: you get married so young? No reason? You know, her
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: family changed their name to you change used to be
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: ship House. Good change. I'm trying to think what name
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: you would have to have to change your name to Hitler.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but writer, I think that one. I mean, I've
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: got a lot of pivots there. I think that it's
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: tough with with couples work because there is a there
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: is a call. You know, there is a level where
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: the couple is miserable, they're unhappy. A therapist is never
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: going to tell you to get a divorce.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think that's a thing. I mean
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: some will I was.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 9: Like, I've heard of friends and it was it was
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 9: the right response. They're like, oh, you don't have kids.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 9: Maybe they didn't. I don't know if they outright, so
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 9: that but like you should consider this.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's fair, right, like to say, hey,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: this is an option showing up. Yeah, let's be adults,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: this is an option, Like we should discuss that. But
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: you know, usually what they weren't engaged.
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 9: They weren't deciding to be involved in that change, So
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 9: then yeah, you don't get to be in the relationship.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: That's hey, it's it's one of the options on the table.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: So like, I think that it's always a really.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 5: True did the one email or have any question about
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 5: whether or not you guys are judging?
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, obvious listener, Yeah racial? Oh god, anyway, writer, good
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 3: luck with this.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: I mean I would encourage you to, uh, you know,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: consider the number one thing is if a couple has
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: not yet done couple skills in regular old couple's therapy,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: that square one. I don't want them having any deeper
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: conversations with the meaning of our conflict and are we
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: incompatible if you haven't done the very first fucking thing,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: like you got to go to elementary school, here in
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: therapy and learn about communication and feeling statements and how
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: to have fair fights and like the basics which.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 3: You never learned in school.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: And unless you just happen to be in a family
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: that role modeled it, which very few of us ever were,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: you don't have those skills. So yeah, that's step one.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: Go to couple's therapy. We recommended therapy. Everybody drink, but yeah,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: do that and then you know, if that doesn't work.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: Now you can have a conversation about like long term
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: in transigent patterns. That's fine, but like, if you haven't
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: done the beginning stuff, then I don't think there's any
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: business having that conversation.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 7: Use smaller words though, don't know the word intransigent. Didn't
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 7: you just sound like an asshole.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: I've been listening to a lot of Hamilton, Like he
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: just drops that word like beautifully in a say it
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: does rhyme with a lot. Yeah, he takes the low
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: fruit with everything.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 3: Anyway, we are gonna take a quick break and when
• 1:35:18
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• 1:35:20
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  Speaker 1: Malaychick Chick fil A Sho Gabriela Dame, Shan Sutherland, max
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• 1:36:59
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• 1:37:02
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• 1:37:03
  Speaker 4: You'd like to hear this episode, Doctor Phil style uncut
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 4: and Unedita, Doctor Phil, It's a patreon dot com slash therapy,
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 4: and thank you for supporting mental health.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 3: That's all the time we got for this week's session.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 10: We'll thank you.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: Tryan Brushwood, and we'd like to thank all of you
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: contributed to our show today. We really appreciate you.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: Remember, pot therapy isn't something to keep all to yourself.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: Shit the episode with the world tag us on the socials.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 7: When you do.
• 1:37:35
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• 1:37:35
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• 1:37:43
  Speaker 4: Do you want to submit a question to the show,
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 4: you can ask anonymously at pot therapy time that emails
• 1:37:47
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  Speaker 4: Google forum. I'm next, I'm I'm Jim, Thanks and we'll
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 4: see you for your appointment next week.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 7: Here, we don't know what to do with this hammer
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 7: hanging between my legs.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 6: Shut up in paddle, goodbye everybody,