Latest / Queer 101 with Peppermint / Existence Is Resistance: Trans Visibility & Queer Activism Today

Transcript

Existence Is Resistance: Trans Visibility & Queer Activism Today · Queer 101 with Peppermint

0:03
SPEAKER_24: Hey y'all, welcome to Queer 101.
0:06
SPEAKER_37: I'm Everett as Dood Historians.
0:09
SPEAKER_37: And we're here to bring you all things queer history that you didn't learn in school.
0:14
SPEAKER_24: This is a podcast where we dive deep into queer culture, books, and a queer experience past, present, and future.
0:22
SPEAKER_24: From the history that shapes us to the culture that keeps us driving, we have got it all out.
0:28
SPEAKER_37: Grab a seat, and let's turn a lot on queer history because these stories demand to be heard and must be celebrated.
0:34
SPEAKER_24: Welcome to Queer 101.
0:36
SPEAKER_24: Class is now in fact.
0:42
SPEAKER_24: Hey y'all, welcome back to Queer 101, the podcast where we talk about any and everything under the sun, including queer art, queer culture, queer literature, and whatever we want.
0:52
SPEAKER_24: I am Peppermint.
0:54
SPEAKER_37: And I'm Hugh the Historian.
0:56
SPEAKER_37: And Pat, speaking of queer literature, there's been some great news the last few weeks for the authors from our queer history book club.
1:03
SPEAKER_37: For those of you in the club, we run through Alstora.
1:05
SPEAKER_37: We have been picking some of the best queer books of the last year, and they have been recognized.
1:10
SPEAKER_37: Caro D.
1:10
SPEAKER_37: Robertus, the author of So Many Stars, An Oral History of Trans, Non-binary, Gender Queer, and Two Spirit People of Color, was just named a judge for the National Book Awards, which is like the most prestigious awards in the country.
1:22
SPEAKER_37: Really hoping that, Caro, if you're listening right now, I have a book coming out, just putting that out there if you want to think about it.
1:29
SPEAKER_37: And, you know, not to toot my own horn, but it is coming out in May.
1:33
SPEAKER_37: My bad.
1:34
SPEAKER_37: That's the name.
1:36
SPEAKER_37: And also, Formaline, who was a guest just recently for her bio of Marsha P.
1:42
SPEAKER_37: Johnson, Marsha, is a finalist for the Lambda Literary Award for Transgender Nonfiction, which is so exciting.
1:50
SPEAKER_37: I'm a previous Lambda literary finalist myself, and it is just such an honor to see her on that list and to know that that book is getting recognized for the awesome work of genius that it is.
2:02
SPEAKER_24: Oh my gosh.
2:02
SPEAKER_24: Congrats to Tourmaline.
2:04
SPEAKER_24: Congrats.
2:04
SPEAKER_24: I actually hosted the Lambda Awards once or twice in the past couple years.
2:10
SPEAKER_24: Maybe I'll do it again this year.
2:12
SPEAKER_24: I'll see if I can.
2:14
SPEAKER_24: And uh uh speaking of trans authors and and queer authors, uh, I just discovered, I don't know if you knew this, I just discovered the trans and non-binary bookstore in Brooklyn.
2:25
SPEAKER_24: Do you know that?
2:27
SPEAKER_24: The non-binarian, that one?
2:31
SPEAKER_24: I don't know.
2:32
SPEAKER_24: Let me look.
2:32
SPEAKER_24: I don't know what that means.
2:33
SPEAKER_24: I mean, I think it's actually down.
2:35
SPEAKER_24: Oh, wow.
2:36
SPEAKER_24: Well, that might be another new one.
2:37
SPEAKER_24: This one's been around like a a year or so.
2:40
SPEAKER_24: This this bookstore in particular, it's called Queer.
2:43
SPEAKER_24: Oh, what's it called?
2:44
SPEAKER_24: Hold on.
2:45
SPEAKER_24: It's called Well, it's called Queer Books for All.
2:49
SPEAKER_24: Um, and so I don't know if it's specifically trans or let me look.
2:54
SPEAKER_24: Uh non-binary.
2:55
SPEAKER_24: Oh, no, you're right.
2:56
SPEAKER_24: It's a non-binarian.
2:57
SPEAKER_37: It's a non-binarian.
2:59
SPEAKER_37: The non-binarian, Hive Mind Books, Gloria, which is a black women-run queer bookstore in Brooklyn.
3:06
SPEAKER_37: Uh, there's a couple others now.
3:07
SPEAKER_37: Like, we are getting some fabulous bookstores here.
3:11
SPEAKER_37: It's so exciting.
3:12
SPEAKER_30: Yeah.
3:13
SPEAKER_24: Uh, well, congrats to Tourmaline and um and Caro as well.
3:18
SPEAKER_24: Uh, we love both of them.
3:20
SPEAKER_24: Uh now, listen, if you haven't listened to our interview with Tourmaline or Caro, uh, or any of our shows for that matter, on the books, then you really should go back now and watch and listen.
3:30
SPEAKER_24: You can uh hear our full interviews on the Alstora website.
3:35
SPEAKER_24: And um, yeah, just make sure you check that out.
3:38
SPEAKER_24: And Hugh, when you mentioned the nomination, it made me think about Marsha P and Stonewall and really how queer people have been fighting for our rights.
3:46
SPEAKER_24: For honestly, for for queer folks are oftentimes on the on the forefront of all uh liberation fights from my perspective, uh, for ages for sure.
3:57
SPEAKER_37: Absolutely.
3:58
SPEAKER_37: I mean, I think you bring up such a great point.
4:00
SPEAKER_37: It's like there has been so much activism.
4:02
SPEAKER_37: And I know we've we've touched on it a couple of times here and there on different episodes, like especially when we talked about Marsha, we talked about Audre Lorde, but the history of queer history is a history of activism.
4:12
SPEAKER_37: So I was thinking today maybe we could dive into some of that history of activism and what it means and what it looks like today, since you are one of the like premier queer activists uh working on the ground, on the air, in this podcast.
4:30
SPEAKER_37: So, what do you think?
4:32
SPEAKER_24: Well, thank you.
4:33
SPEAKER_24: I think it's great.
4:34
SPEAKER_24: I don't, I try, I don't usually describe myself as an activist.
4:37
SPEAKER_24: I'm an actor.
4:38
SPEAKER_24: And so I want people to know recognize that I try to bring activism into those spaces, the spaces that doesn't usually exist in.
4:47
SPEAKER_24: So I'm although I'll go to a march or a rally, I'm generally trying to infiltrate spaces so that they can see our community in more ways than just on the street or just fighting for because I one thing that I noticed that people really do uh admire someone who fights for themselves, as long as they don't have to get involved and help with the fight.
5:08
SPEAKER_24: And I and I think that that is, you know, that's fine, but like, you know, I'm not gonna say to a homeless person, good for you for trying to, you know, for sticking it out.
5:20
SPEAKER_24: You know, like if I can help them, I will.
5:22
SPEAKER_24: You know what I mean?
5:23
SPEAKER_24: I'm not gonna say to a women's rights activist, you should go good for you for going and fighting.
5:27
SPEAKER_24: I hope you're you're up against a hard fight, but I admire the fact that you're out there by yourself.
5:33
SPEAKER_24: I don't want to say that to a women's rights activist.
5:35
SPEAKER_24: And I don't want the trans community or the queer community to be in that position either.
5:39
SPEAKER_24: I know we have allies, but I think we we uh we would all be much better off and our can our contingent of fighters would be uh much more powerful if everyone recognizes sort of intersectionality.
5:54
SPEAKER_24: That like today I made a post about immigration rights, and immigrants' rights are also trans issues, those are also trans rights as well, because there are trans people who are immigrants, for instance.
6:03
SPEAKER_24: And so it's really important to that we recognize that and don't silo everything all the time.
6:08
SPEAKER_24: And so, yeah, that's that's my sort of response to that.
6:11
SPEAKER_37: Uh I think especially right now, as it's trans week of visibility, that is such an important point to make.
6:16
SPEAKER_37: Like this struggle is linked to all other struggles.
6:20
SPEAKER_24: I found myself uh between several rocks and several hard places this past week.
6:26
SPEAKER_24: I went from DC, I was helping boost the uh tax the rich rally.
6:31
SPEAKER_24: Uh I also was helped one wasn't able to go to everything, was also helping to boost the the doll walk, which was I think might have been the first ever in New York.
6:42
SPEAKER_24: Um, sort of like a trans, it was a it was a march, and you know, an activism sort of march for uh the trans community was participating here in New York called the doll walk.
6:51
SPEAKER_24: That happened yesterday.
6:52
SPEAKER_24: I'm gonna be being doing some posts, and maybe uh maybe we'll throw some of the video up on here.
6:58
SPEAKER_24: We'll see.
6:58
SPEAKER_24: Um, anyway, uh but there was a lot going on, and I really was hopeful, even though Bernie Sanders is not really known for being very intersectional, very intersectional with his speeches and things, I was hopeful that some of the queer content creators, because they were uh interviewing people afterwards, would have been able to get in conference with Bernie Sanders, with some of these people, and actually ask them, you know, get them on record with recognizing that these issues, like the taxing the rich uh initiative, you know, is relevant to the queer community, specifically the trans community.
7:33
SPEAKER_24: When we talk about tax the rich, we we talk about not having to have cuts to import in New York, um, uh not having cuts to social services.
7:41
SPEAKER_24: And that's also something that translates to the whole country.
7:44
SPEAKER_24: And when we think about cuts to social services, a lot of the times we think about cuts to things like Medicaid and healthcare.
7:49
SPEAKER_24: And that that affects everyone.
7:51
SPEAKER_24: But it also gravely impacts trans folks because right now, legislatively, our president and states around the country are putting forth legislation to block access to gender firming care.
8:01
SPEAKER_24: And so it's it's it's important that people understand that trans people are connected to every single issue that has to do with um quality of life, lack of access to resources, especially when it's a group that's less represented.
8:18
SPEAKER_37: Yeah.
8:18
SPEAKER_37: And I think all the studies we have show that like trans people, especially queer people generally, women are much less likely to earn a decent wage, to have job protections, to have health care that comes with employment.
8:31
SPEAKER_37: I mean, I think that we often get this stereotype in the media about like, you know, the queer community as represented by rich gay white men who own their apartments in the West Village and then go to circuit parties.
8:42
SPEAKER_37: But actually, the majority of the queer community is less affluent than the average American.
8:48
SPEAKER_37: So I think any issue that touches on quality of life, on the working class, on healthcare, on social safety nets, all of these should be seen as queer and trans issues.
8:59
SPEAKER_37: And I think that's honestly a good place to start our conversation today.
9:02
SPEAKER_37: What do you think activism is, right?
9:05
SPEAKER_37: What is queer activism?
9:07
SPEAKER_37: Is it is it defined by its intent?
9:08
SPEAKER_37: Is it only queer activism if you're working on like a specifically queer cause for a specifically queer movement?
9:14
SPEAKER_37: Can just how you live your life and how you bring your queerness into a space where it's like you said, maybe not expected or accepted?
9:22
SPEAKER_37: Is that activism?
9:23
SPEAKER_37: What's your definition?
9:25
SPEAKER_24: I don't know that I have a definition.
9:26
SPEAKER_24: I think activism is really just, I mean, besides advocacy, you know, uh, but it could it it can, you know.
9:35
SPEAKER_24: I I I I don't I don't know that I have a a clear definition.
9:39
SPEAKER_24: I probably did years ago.
9:40
SPEAKER_24: Uh but it's, you know, and back then, back in the day, I probably would have said that activism is just like, you know, marching for the rights, marching for rights, things like that.
9:48
SPEAKER_24: Um and now I think that activism is probably whatever it needs to be, but it has to connect to, and this is sort of me coming into this.
10:00
SPEAKER_24: It's this is not a revelation for for the ages, but I think activism needs to in the current modern context, activism needs to be a working class um laborer's mission.
10:19
SPEAKER_24: You know, it has to be.
10:21
SPEAKER_24: I guess there are political activists who who advocate on behalf of um corporate interests and foreign interests.
10:32
SPEAKER_24: Uh but you know, so I guess that's a type of activism.
10:37
SPEAKER_24: But I think it's a bad type of activism.
10:41
SPEAKER_24: The just activism um is the one that is connected to the needs of working class folks.
10:48
SPEAKER_24: What about you?
10:49
SPEAKER_37: Well, you know, it's interesting you bring up that point about like what you used to thought versus what you might think now.
10:53
SPEAKER_37: Uh for a long time when I was younger, I like you, I think was very much like activism is being out in the streets and yelling.
10:59
SPEAKER_37: It's protests, it's um, you know, uh kind of like creative things like when Act Up put a giant condom over the house of Senator Jesse Helms because he was holding up uh HIV and AIDS funding.
11:12
SPEAKER_37: I saw those things as activism.
11:14
SPEAKER_37: And I saw what I think at the time I would have called like community organizing as not the same, you know, working together to like get community meetings, to get people to know each other, to, you know, uh those consciousness-raising groups where you'd sit and talk about your issues.
11:28
SPEAKER_37: I would have said that that was something different.
11:30
SPEAKER_37: I think as I've gotten older, maybe similar to you, it's it's my view on what activism is has gotten wider.
11:38
SPEAKER_37: A lot more things seem like activism to me now and like um attempting to make change.
11:43
SPEAKER_37: I think one of the things I really think about a lot comes to me from Sarah Shulman, who's an incredible queer author and activist, uh, who just wrote a book this year or last year called The Fantasy and Necessity of Um Solidarity.
11:57
SPEAKER_37: And she talks a lot about the need for activism to be effective.
12:04
SPEAKER_37: Not that you always win.
12:05
SPEAKER_37: We never always win.
12:06
SPEAKER_37: We don't know what's going to win, we don't know what's going to be effective necessarily.
12:10
SPEAKER_37: But that if we don't concentrate on making change, if at the end of the day we don't evaluate what we've done to say, like, are we going somewhere?
12:18
SPEAKER_37: Whether that's making uh legislative change or it's change in our personal lives or in our relationships with each other, if we're not actually affecting the issue we're organizing around, at some point does the organizing take the place of making change?
12:32
SPEAKER_37: You know, I think about that a lot.
12:33
SPEAKER_37: I see people protesting in so many different ways right now, and it's so exciting.
12:38
SPEAKER_37: Uh, and and I think that for me, all I ask is like, do you have goals that I broadly agree with?
12:46
SPEAKER_37: And do you seem to want to actually make change?
12:49
SPEAKER_37: Are you committed to getting things done, not just kind of like a symbolic work that maybe you don't even know what the symbol leads to the change?
12:57
SPEAKER_37: That's for me the big, big defining moment on activism.
13:00
SPEAKER_37: And I think when you look historically, like we see in queer life so much of this, so many different kinds of activists.
13:07
SPEAKER_37: You know, we have the Stonewalls and before Stonewall, the Black Cat protest and the protests at Cooper's Donuts out in LA, and the reminder days in Philly, where people, you know, protested wearing very nice posters and very nice suits saying that homosexuals should not be denied jobs, you know, in the 1960s, that kind of in the streets activism.
13:30
SPEAKER_37: And then we have, you know, the entire panopoly of activism around the AIDS movement, how many people were in the streets, but also how many people were going back home to their towns and talking to them about like, how do we live?
13:42
SPEAKER_37: You know, how do we make it possible for someone with AIDS to live in this town where maybe there are no social services and maybe they need to get food and support and medicine from people close to them?
13:52
SPEAKER_37: It's just, I don't know.
13:53
SPEAKER_37: I look back on our history and I think there is so much in it to draw from so many models, uh, you know, and it's people like Tormaline who give us that bio of Marcia P.
14:03
SPEAKER_37: Johnson so that we really see both every kind of activism that she did in the streets, in her life, in her art.
14:10
SPEAKER_37: And that's what really inspires me these days, are looking at these broad activists from our history and asking, like, what can we learn from them?
14:19
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, I think that's true.
14:20
SPEAKER_24: I th I do I kind of disagree a little bit.
14:22
SPEAKER_24: I do think that, like, you know, listen, if somebody's gonna plan a march and like call all the people, get the permits, invite everybody to come, figure out what the theme is gonna be, main paint the signs and saying, you know, tax the rich, for instance, or like healthcare for what the group, um, they might not be able to be the person that also is up at the same time in the legislative office while the march is taking place.
14:45
SPEAKER_24: Do you know what I mean?
14:46
SPEAKER_24: And so I really do think people have to, you know, it maybe it's a domino effect of like people, you know, uh there's there's an an ignorance or an people are unaware of a lot of these issues or how they work or how they impact certain groups, especially when we're talking about like getting other people on into the solidarity movement, people who are not necessarily a part of the uh the community or directly affected, may not know that like marriage equality is on the line or or whatever it is.
15:12
SPEAKER_24: And so we use hopefully art, literature, and these different things, obviously, as a way to make a point and then um hopefully inspire people into it.
15:22
SPEAKER_24: But I do want to give those activists because oftentimes the people it would be wonderful if the richest person in the world was the one on the street fighting for everybody's rights, but that's just not likely, right?
15:33
SPEAKER_24: The person who is the least affected by these things is not likely to be the person that's gonna be the first one out on the front lines.
15:38
SPEAKER_24: It's usually the people who are the most affected.
15:41
SPEAKER_24: And again, we come back to working class issues.
15:43
SPEAKER_24: If the person that's most affected by this type of discrimination and this type of things, then they have less access to food, acts, money, housing, whatever, which means they're not able to use all of their human life force to just be constantly going all the time.
15:56
SPEAKER_24: And they might not even be able to get access to some of the places that people higher up in the chain might be able to get access to.
16:02
SPEAKER_24: So I do think like the street activism has to inspire the art activism, or vice versa, and then the art activism has to inspire the people in the sort of like almost in the bourgeoisie that hopefully, like, you know, are like, oh, look at those people on the street.
16:15
SPEAKER_24: What does that sign say?
16:17
SPEAKER_24: More medicine.
16:18
SPEAKER_24: You mean they don't have medicine?
16:20
SPEAKER_24: Darling, give them the medicine.
16:22
SPEAKER_24: And like hopefully it works that way.
16:24
SPEAKER_24: Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, you know.
16:26
SPEAKER_37: I mean, that's I agree with that.
16:28
SPEAKER_37: I think for me, it's like you just want to know what's the effect you're looking to have.
16:32
SPEAKER_37: Not every action is going to change a vote, you know.
16:35
SPEAKER_37: Maybe this action is about actually making all the supporters, the people who are on the same page as me, feel inspired and excited.
16:41
SPEAKER_37: You know, I look at these rallies, the No Kings rallies that were just happening, and that's what I think so much of that is to show how much support there is, how much excitement there is, to get the people who are doing this work in a million other ways to feel really like, oh my God, I am supported.
16:55
SPEAKER_37: I have people in my community, other people care, or to learn about new issues that maybe I come to the march with one issue and I learn about three others.
17:03
SPEAKER_37: Sometimes I run into people who think that the march is going to change the vote, you know, and I'm like, no, that's not what this is for.
17:08
SPEAKER_37: Just know what your activism is doing.
17:10
SPEAKER_24: Agreed.
17:11
SPEAKER_24: And and and I do think that, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures.
17:15
SPEAKER_24: I mean, I do think that we are uh with which whatever way you look at it, things are more heightened and urgent than than than in recent times.
17:23
SPEAKER_24: That's like very, very low bar, you know, we can agree on that, everybody.
17:28
SPEAKER_24: And so in that regard, like whatever activism, whatever the the impact and the um intention of activism in years past, it needs to catch up with and sort of reflect uh the the um the reverent and be reverent to what what we're experiencing now, you know.
17:47
SPEAKER_37: Absolutely.
17:48
SPEAKER_37: Um, act up, you know, and how they had people who were literally smuggling drugs that were not legal in this country across borders to get them into the bodies of people who are dying otherwise.
18:01
SPEAKER_37: How they were having pools of people sharing their medications in ways that were totally illegal and off license because other people couldn't get access to them.
18:09
SPEAKER_37: And how much that model feels really important right now when so many people are losing access to gender-affirming hormones or other kinds of medical care, you know?
18:18
SPEAKER_37: These things feel really um aggressive, maybe, or they feel uh dangerous because they're breaking the law.
18:26
SPEAKER_37: But we're in a moment where like that's the level we need to be at, you know, and that's what I think that's one of the lessons I look back on, and I'm like, this is really exciting.
18:34
SPEAKER_37: But we can go all the way back, way further back, and look at people like Oscar Wilde.
18:39
SPEAKER_37: I mean, for those of you who don't know, Oscar Wilde, the author was uh Irish guy who wrote and lived in England, was arrested, uh, charged with gross indecency because he was having an affair with a man who was the son of a lord.
18:56
SPEAKER_37: And he actually Alfred Douglas.
19:02
SPEAKER_37: Uh he actually pushed back.
19:04
SPEAKER_37: He was he he brought the case to trial saying he had been libeled by this, and that's where he lost.
19:10
SPEAKER_37: He lost in the libel case saying that he was being um, you know, uh made fun of in public, and he ended up going to jail for years.
19:19
SPEAKER_37: And when he came out, he died very quickly thereafter.
19:23
SPEAKER_37: Oscar Wilde, I mean, if you read any of his work, he's silly, he's witty, he's all about being decorative and sarcastic, and he's not someone who I think would in normal times and places have stepped up and been an activist.
19:37
SPEAKER_37: He was meant to be a dilettante, an esthete, a pretty boy, you know, who wrote silly fun things.
19:44
SPEAKER_37: But the circumstances of the world that he was in pushed him to a place where he understood, I have this power, I have this notoriety, this celebrity, I can push back in a way that other people cannot.
19:57
SPEAKER_37: And even though he lost, even though he went to jail for it, he made change through those actions, but it cost him so much.
20:05
SPEAKER_37: I mean, he almost never wrote really much after he was in jail.
20:08
SPEAKER_37: Uh, and those kind of stories, I think, are ones that I'm returning to over and over again right now.
20:13
SPEAKER_37: It's like, what power do I have to make change?
20:16
SPEAKER_37: And how uh essential in this moment can I be?
20:19
SPEAKER_37: Where I where can I best lend my energies?
20:23
SPEAKER_24: And as we, I think as we move even past Oscar Wilde further a little bit further now into the 20th century, we go through sort of ongoing shifts in morality, right?
20:33
SPEAKER_24: You know, we can see that his Oscar Wilde's impact impacted sort of the next, I guess, generation, we'd say.
20:40
SPEAKER_24: Oh, yeah.
20:40
SPEAKER_24: Um, uh, as we go through activism, if we look at folks like Harry Hay and uh the daughters of beletus, you know.
20:47
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
20:47
SPEAKER_24: Um, and I they're so important.
20:50
SPEAKER_37: No, I I I was just gonna say, like, yeah, these are great um places we should be looking to.
20:55
SPEAKER_37: Yeah.
20:55
SPEAKER_37: I think in terms of the organizing, the bringing people together, you know, the Matachine Society and the Daughters of Boletis are some of the first in this country to come together as queer people and just even say, like, what do we want?
21:07
SPEAKER_37: When do we want it now?
21:09
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
21:09
SPEAKER_24: And ultimately, like, even I think when it comes to queer activism, again, and I I not to belabor this, but like, of course, like on the surface, it's the you know, freedom to marry, love, love is love, love who you love, freedom to dress the way you want, and and freedom, you know, uh, you know, but but then when we look deeper into that, dressing the way you want, why?
21:30
SPEAKER_24: So that you're not discriminated against and can't and can't be fired at work or don't get beaten on the street.
21:36
SPEAKER_24: And so it really is about like very, very basic physical safety and health, access to uh f um you know, food and job security and housing.
21:48
SPEAKER_24: It's like those very uh l limited quality of life things because we see as we see people be discriminated against for their gender, their sexuality, their gender expression, things like that, then we see the system come.
22:00
SPEAKER_24: Cutting them off and taking power, um, using its power, it's it's the power of the state to limit access um to these these important services, these these rights, uh, you know, human rights.
22:13
SPEAKER_24: Uh and so that's ultimately what it's about, right?
22:17
SPEAKER_37: I think so.
22:17
SPEAKER_37: And I think that connects so many movements, you know, that kind of like bodily autonomy, the right to control my body, to dress how I want, to, to get the health care that I want, to have the kind of reproductive freedom that I want.
22:29
SPEAKER_37: I that is for me where like the queer movement meets abolition, meets uh reproductive choice, meets all kinds of freedoms.
22:38
SPEAKER_37: Like if you don't control your own body, if you don't have the right to do with your body what you want, if other people get to tell you how you should dress, how you should um when and how you should be pregnant, then at the end of the day, like you're controlled in every aspect of your life.
22:58
SPEAKER_37: So yeah, autonomy for me.
23:01
SPEAKER_24: That's the big piece is that if you can't control your own body, someone else is controlling your body.
23:06
SPEAKER_24: You know, I didn't mean to interrupt though.
23:08
SPEAKER_24: Go go ahead.
23:09
SPEAKER_37: No, that was it.
23:10
SPEAKER_37: I mean, I think that's exactly it.
23:11
SPEAKER_37: And that's for me, like a place where, like, so long as we all know that, even if you're working over on another issue that's like not the same legislative issue I'm working on, right?
23:20
SPEAKER_37: But we both understand at the end of the day, this is about making sure that everyone has freedom over their own body, over their own reproductive choices, over their own dress choices, then we're all moving towards freedom together.
23:34
SPEAKER_37: You know, we're not gonna end up at cross purposes.
23:36
SPEAKER_24: I know I mentioned this before, but I really do think, and this is not a part of our book club collection in any way, but I do I would really beg for people to read um Cast, The Origins of Our Discontent by Isabel Wilk Wilkerson, uh, just to get a uh just to as a refresher on how the cast, how systems of caste are established, set up, and maintained, and then go back and look at sort of deconstruct the the pillars, the tenets of uh genocide and what it takes, like in terms of genocide scholars, what they say constitutes a genocide.
24:13
SPEAKER_24: Because I think when we think of genocide, we think everybody was just killed yesterday.
24:16
SPEAKER_24: That was just they just all killed them all yesterday.
24:19
SPEAKER_24: Uh, which can happen, obviously.
24:21
SPEAKER_24: But in order to even get to that spot, you have to position the out group, the target, um, in a particular way as a group that has less access to certain rights, can't move around freely, can't identify themselves uh in the way that they want, uh, can't have health care and be healthy and take care of themselves, can't work the way that they want because if they work, they have money and they can leave, they can flee, they can do what they want.
24:44
SPEAKER_24: But if you want to um contain a group, which containment is also one of the pillars of genocide, containing the group means cutting off their access to being able to move around and get the have the job they want and having an ID that works.
24:56
SPEAKER_24: You know, you can't have your ID, here's your ID.
24:58
SPEAKER_24: I'm gonna give you the ID that says you are the out group.
25:01
SPEAKER_24: You are contained, you are marked.
25:03
SPEAKER_24: And then they are they're stuck.
25:04
SPEAKER_24: And so that's what's happening when we see the trans community being blocked from access to having accurate passports, when we see in places like Kansas, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago, that trans uh trans people's licenses were like suddenly revoked overnight.
25:19
SPEAKER_24: And then also their birth certificates reverse the same population, the trans people in Kansas.
25:23
SPEAKER_24: We're seeing Texas starting to say, hey, Kansas sounds like a good idea, we're gonna do it too.
25:27
SPEAKER_24: And so we see all these different places state by state, because they know that they can't do it federally all in one felt swoop, state by state, working this way up to the Supreme Court.
25:34
SPEAKER_24: And right now we're waiting on uh Supreme Court decisions, which we've talked about before, to uh trans folks being able to play in sports, trans access to gender-affirming care, trans passports.
25:44
SPEAKER_24: And so there's so many things we're awaiting to see.
25:46
SPEAKER_24: And of course, if the Supreme, once the Supreme Court rules, that will be sort of the lay of the land, uh the law of the land, rather.
25:54
SPEAKER_24: And that is cutting off the trans people or certain sect of the population to key things that they need in order to have that freedom that we all talk about in our country.
26:06
SPEAKER_24: And so that's why the Lemkin Institute says that the the I think their third red flag warning that America, the United States of America, is on its way to a genocide, built building up a genocide of transgender people in this country because of the laws and the over 600 now in 2026 laws and and bills, anti-trans bills, policies that are they are trying to implement into law, some of them have passed, some of them haven't, um, against trans people.
26:33
SPEAKER_24: And they are all doing things like limiting access to bathrooms, identification, sports teams, job security, healthcare, fairhouse, health care, all those things, you know?
26:47
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
26:47
SPEAKER_37: Yeah.
26:47
SPEAKER_37: And they're in front of the court that is right now, like this week, the last week, deciding on what should happen with birthright citizenship.
26:56
SPEAKER_37: Another case where they are trying to take people's documents, trying to revoke their ability to access services to even live in this country.
27:05
SPEAKER_37: And and so you see how these things are all just so connected, which is why, again, I mean, going back to what we talked about at the top of the show, like our activism has to be connected and has to recognize each other.
27:15
SPEAKER_37: Speaking of which, I know we both have to get to some T Dov events this week.
27:20
SPEAKER_37: So we should close it down today.
27:21
SPEAKER_37: But there is so much more to talk about, y'all.
27:23
SPEAKER_37: At home, we're gonna we're gonna continue this next week.
27:25
SPEAKER_37: We're gonna keep talking about activism because we have only scratched the tiniest bit of the surface here.
27:32
SPEAKER_24: It is true.
27:32
SPEAKER_24: In the meantime, make sure you are following uh both of us on our social media and also go over to some of the um organizations that I've been posting about this week, particularly Gender Lib, Gender Liberation, uh, black and also Black Trans Pardon me, Liberation.
27:49
SPEAKER_24: Those are two great organizations that are both working both at the national and at the local level to uh help out the trans community, to support and uplift the trans community, and also educate people on social media about what the what the community is dealing with.
28:04
SPEAKER_24: Uh and you can find some really great information there.
28:07
SPEAKER_24: I posted about it personally on my social media, so please go check them out.
28:11
SPEAKER_24: Um, and do something for trans day of visibility, which is today, but it doesn't have been today because we can see that all these things are continuing on.
28:20
SPEAKER_24: So even if you're hearing this or watching this past April 1st, still do something for in honor of trans day of visibility.
28:27
SPEAKER_37: Yeah, it's not the only day.
28:28
SPEAKER_37: It's like you're not just allowed to do activism on trans day of disability.
28:32
SPEAKER_37: So whenever you hear this, please do something.
28:34
SPEAKER_37: I want to give a shout out to Free2Be Youth.
28:36
SPEAKER_37: They're a project here in New York City that provides legal services to queer youth, mostly homeless, street and fellow queer youth of color, almost all trans youth, and they're working now with youth around the country, getting resources from New York City into other states where they're needed.
28:52
SPEAKER_37: They do great work and they do on the ground service provision.
28:56
SPEAKER_37: So please check them out.
28:57
SPEAKER_37: Free to be youth.
28:58
SPEAKER_37: And uh let us know in the comments where you're giving, where you're doing your activism, what kind of places you're excited to join with, what you're doing for transday visibility.
29:09
SPEAKER_37: And of course, also like us, subscribe, you know, do all the things.
29:12
SPEAKER_24: All that jazz.
29:13
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
29:14
SPEAKER_24: We'll see y'all next week.
29:15
SPEAKER_24: Bye.
29:19
SPEAKER_37: Gorge.
29:20
SPEAKER_37: Okay.
29:21
SPEAKER_37: Sorry, it went right over that Oscar Wilde part there.
29:23
SPEAKER_37: I just I scrolled past it and missed it entirely.
29:27
SPEAKER_24: It's all good.
29:27
SPEAKER_24: We definitely got some Oscar Wilde conversation in.
29:30
SPEAKER_37: Yeah.
29:40
SPEAKER_24: Great.
29:41
SPEAKER_24: So we don't have to mention any of that.
29:43
SPEAKER_24: Oh, I don't know.
29:44
SPEAKER_24: So we can just be like, thanks for watching.
29:59
SPEAKER_37: Something Josh, did anything weird happen?
30:04
SPEAKER_37: There was like a moment about five minutes ago where my computer went entirely black, and I could still hear things, so I assumed everything was going fine, and and neither of you seemed to notice, but it was like 20 seconds there where I had nothing at all.
30:16
SPEAKER_25: Okay, that long?
30:17
SPEAKER_25: Good grief.
30:17
SPEAKER_25: No, I didn't notice that.
30:18
SPEAKER_37: Yeah, I could hear sounds, so I was like, well, I've been just going.
30:22
SPEAKER_24: Cool.
30:23
SPEAKER_24: I'm glad you did.
30:24
SPEAKER_24: Ooh, sorry about that.
30:25
SPEAKER_24: Good grief.
30:26
SPEAKER_24: Everybody's got uh technique.
30:30
SPEAKER_24: Okay, you want to hit it?
30:32
SPEAKER_37: So, yeah, do you feel good, Pep, going into this?
30:34
SPEAKER_37: It's like this activist by definition.
30:35
SPEAKER_37: When did your activism begin?
30:37
SPEAKER_37: Is that a do you feel a good place to start?
30:40
SPEAKER_24: Hold on, let me go through.
30:41
SPEAKER_24: Is that after okay, Briggs, Band Gay, Living People?
30:45
SPEAKER_37: Or we can go into any of those after that.
30:47
SPEAKER_37: It's like down where the break between sections is.
30:50
SPEAKER_24: I'm just I I can't even scroll with my hand.
30:52
SPEAKER_24: It's on an automatic thing, so I'm just waiting, waiting for the conveyor belt to bring it around.
30:57
SPEAKER_24: Allow what is it at what's right before it, just so I know when to pause.
31:00
SPEAKER_37: Uh IOC banning trans women from competing.
31:04
unknown: Okay.
31:04
SPEAKER_37: And then it says, I think it goes without saying you're an activist by definition.
31:07
SPEAKER_37: When did your activism begin?
31:10
SPEAKER_37: Or we can go back up and pick any of these issues, you know, and talk about them.
31:14
SPEAKER_24: I I think I'd I'm more interested in talking about educating them a little bit about some of the issues.
31:20
SPEAKER_24: I don't know that I want to talk about when my activism when I felt like I was being discriminated against, which is not that's probably obvious.
31:27
SPEAKER_24: You know what I mean?
31:30
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, that would make sense.
31:32
SPEAKER_24: Uh so let's start with it.
31:42
SPEAKER_37: Should we do since we're talking about like things that were just happening, should we talk about the IOC thing?
31:46
SPEAKER_24: I feel like we never mentioned on here.
31:50
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
31:51
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
31:52
SPEAKER_24: Um, I'm going past uh all the HIV activism.
32:14
SPEAKER_18: Sorry.
32:15
SPEAKER_36: No worries.
32:20
SPEAKER_24: Um IOC, there it is.
32:23
SPEAKER_24: Okay, okay.
32:23
SPEAKER_24: So yeah, let's let's talk about the IOC.
32:26
SPEAKER_24: I'm gonna mention the the UN um recognizing slavery as a crime against humanity.
32:32
SPEAKER_24: And um and let's just like give the here's some here's a short list of some some things.
32:40
SPEAKER_24: We don't have to go too deeply into any of them as we start.
32:46
SPEAKER_18: Okay.
32:50
SPEAKER_24: Uh oh, you're already recording.
32:52
SPEAKER_24: Is it recording?
32:54
SPEAKER_24: So we don't need to do another clap, do we?
32:56
SPEAKER_24: Or should we Okay, so we don't need to do another clap.
33:00
SPEAKER_24: Um actually, but if you cut this one, we might.
33:02
SPEAKER_24: So let's just go ahead and do it.
33:04
SPEAKER_24: And one and two and three and four.
33:10
SPEAKER_24: Hey y'all, welcome back.
33:11
SPEAKER_24: This is basically part two of last week's episode.
33:14
SPEAKER_24: If you didn't watch that, please go back and watch that.
33:16
SPEAKER_24: You can watch them in any order, but we are here for Queer 101, uh, the podcast where we talk about any and everything under the sun.
33:23
SPEAKER_24: I'm Peppermint.
33:25
SPEAKER_37: And I'm Hugh the Historian, and I'm so excited to get back to our conversation about activism.
33:29
SPEAKER_37: I feel like we were just starting to touch some of what was happening today.
33:33
SPEAKER_37: Because if you are listening to this, I'm I'm gonna make a few assumptions that you are in touch with the queer community.
33:39
SPEAKER_37: You have some idea of what's going on, but I can say that there is such a fire hose of bullshit happening right now that it feels like I catch some things, I miss other ones, and there's so many things to be talking about.
33:52
SPEAKER_37: I mean, we could go on endlessly about queer history and the activism in history and how important it is, but I think the most important part of it is that we learn how to do better this time.
34:03
SPEAKER_37: And one of the things that is like top of my mind right now, and Pep, you and I were just talking about this, is what's going on with the Olympics, banning trans women from competing, and and in fact, how invasive these new policies are.
34:16
SPEAKER_37: And I just I knowing the history of sex testing at the Olympics, how badly it's been done, how much it has failed, how it was seen even just 30 years ago as laughable, it feels to me like we're backsliding on this issue.
34:30
SPEAKER_37: I I just can't even believe it.
34:35
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, I mean, we are.
34:36
SPEAKER_24: We definitely are.
34:37
SPEAKER_24: I mean, we're seeing uh, I think it's it's a it's the proponents of all these things have learned something probably over the past few years, that it's important to have people in positions of power that can do the bidding of whoever they want.
34:51
SPEAKER_24: And and so that's what we're seeing.
34:53
SPEAKER_24: And so instead of actually having people who are using comprehensive, scientific, proven uh, you know, information and and resources to with which to make their determinations about their policies, we're seeing people that are just basically saying, hey, we we we agree, we'll hold them out and we'll give this reason.
35:13
SPEAKER_24: And even the reasoning is not very um, it's it doesn't appear to be that well thought out.
35:19
SPEAKER_24: Obviously it's not.
35:20
SPEAKER_24: And, you know, because when you when it you go to even its logical conclusions, then it does di disproportionately impact cis women as well.
35:30
SPEAKER_24: Uh, you know, when we think of how you're going to uh in um uh implement a ban against trans athletes, you know, at some point it has to be based on how how people look and present themselves and you examining them in a way that, like you said, is very invasive.
35:50
SPEAKER_24: And so, you know, hopefully the IOC can will uh reconsider.
35:56
SPEAKER_24: I think that's the best we can hope for right now.
35:58
SPEAKER_24: Uh in impact and the the effect of this, the impact of this is is is heavy.
36:04
SPEAKER_24: I don't want to downplay it, but you know, creating a ban again about on trans women from this or that is really more about communicating to people who aren't trans that we want your support.
36:19
SPEAKER_24: It's not about actually effectively stopping an issue or a problem that has happened or probably is not about to happen.
36:25
SPEAKER_24: There's not about to be 5,000 trans women uh entering the Olympics.
36:30
SPEAKER_37: Trans women have been competing at the Olympics for decades.
36:32
SPEAKER_37: They're not dominating every sport, they're not everywhere.
36:36
SPEAKER_37: But what this is gonna do, and it goes back to what you were saying last week about how control, right?
36:41
SPEAKER_37: It's like, yeah, sure.
36:42
SPEAKER_37: Maybe you might think this is just the Olympics.
36:44
SPEAKER_37: But well, when does that sex testing start then?
36:47
SPEAKER_37: If you if you're an athlete that wants to be pro, that wants to go far, are you going to be tested?
36:52
SPEAKER_37: Is your coach going to want to test you before he takes you on?
36:55
SPEAKER_37: Is your school gonna test you?
36:56
SPEAKER_37: Like this is going to control the lives of so many athletes who are never gonna go anywhere near the Olympics.
37:03
SPEAKER_37: It's that that domino effect.
37:06
SPEAKER_24: And who are not trans.
37:07
SPEAKER_24: It's going to impact cisgender women who are not trans because if you blend in, if you're trans, they're not gonna know.
37:15
SPEAKER_24: And they and only, you know, the only it's not like they're saying, if you're trans, volunteer, tell us you're trans, and then we'll test you.
37:22
SPEAKER_24: They're saying we want to get into the pants, into the blood, into the hormones of every single person coming through the door.
37:29
SPEAKER_24: You know, if you have an ID checking policy, you have to do it to everyone.
37:32
SPEAKER_24: And that's the thing.
37:33
SPEAKER_24: The same thing with these voter ID laws that we're seeing, yeah, you know, which kind of goes back to the uh birthright citizenship question.
37:40
SPEAKER_24: Um, and so with the IOC, it is about sort of um, again, manufacturing consent and changing the entire tone on how people generally feel because you can't discriminate it against, you can't discriminate against trans people and ban them from receiving gender-affirming care if you require that gender-affirming care to get into the Olympics.
38:01
SPEAKER_24: And so, in order to have it go across the board, you have to kind of visit every single industry and say, y'all need to implement your anti-trans, whatever it is.
38:08
SPEAKER_24: Are you a bakery?
38:10
SPEAKER_24: You better figure out a way to ban trans people from the bakery.
38:12
SPEAKER_24: You know what I mean?
38:13
SPEAKER_24: Because then your your your your tactic of starving trans people and saying that trans people aren't allowed to have access to food won't work if the bakery is willing to sell them food.
38:23
SPEAKER_24: So you have to kind of do it to everybody, you know what I mean?
38:26
SPEAKER_37: Everybody.
38:26
SPEAKER_37: And it has to affect way more than just trans people, it has to affect many cis people, women.
38:30
SPEAKER_37: I mean, Emain Khalif, she is a woman who's lived her entire life as a woman, and yet this sex testing is affecting her.
38:38
SPEAKER_37: Castor Semenya.
38:39
SPEAKER_37: I mean, I think the the poster child of someone who has been so unfairly discriminated against, so demonized in the media, who is not a trans person, you know, and it's like I think it's terrible.
38:50
SPEAKER_37: And I the banning in and of itself.
38:52
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, and I think that's one of the things when we talk about when we when we think when we talk about the framing of trans athletes, we talk about they talk about it as this grown male, grown men who are muscular, full of testosterone and all this coming in to your young baby toddlers soccer team.
39:11
SPEAKER_24: You know, like the the imagery is a grown adult man with young female babies.
39:18
SPEAKER_24: And that's what team is that?
39:21
SPEAKER_24: That's not happening on any team.
39:23
SPEAKER_24: What we're talking about, if we're talking about women's athlete, if we're talking, of course it's to scare them.
39:27
SPEAKER_24: If we're talking about women's athletes, we're talking about women who are athletes who are more muscular than my mom, more muscular than your mom, more muscular than your sister.
39:35
SPEAKER_24: They've got if they're athletes and they've been doing this for a long time, their chances are they've got, yeah, they probably got more testosterone in their body than they have than the average girl that's not athletic walking around the street.
39:48
SPEAKER_24: Pardon me.
39:48
SPEAKER_24: And so we're talking about people who have who are athletes, especially at the competitive level, who have a skill, maybe it's a natural skill, maybe it's an acquired skill, that's above average, above the average person, above the average woman, and probably above the average man.
40:03
SPEAKER_24: And the science has come out recently to show that when it comes to most sports, contact sports, they're still examining.
40:12
SPEAKER_24: But when it comes to most sports that aren't considered high-impact contact sports, like like American football, trans women do not have an advantage over cis women.
40:24
SPEAKER_24: That has been examined and reported and completely out there.
40:29
SPEAKER_24: The only reason that this um argument is being is floating is because people picture a man fighting a young girl.
40:39
SPEAKER_24: That's what and they're like, well, of course a man can beat up a little girl.
40:44
SPEAKER_24: That's that's the entire basis of this.
40:47
SPEAKER_24: And that's not what's happening.
40:49
SPEAKER_37: I think bringing up football is such a great example for me because I think about American football, and I think, my God, this is a sport that we know is incredibly violent, that leads to so many brain injuries as well as so many other kinds of injuries.
41:02
SPEAKER_37: If we are worried about children being permanently damaged, perhaps we shouldn't have a football program in every school in the country that gets money and coaches and bussing, and we don't even talk about those injuries and how we're possibly hurting children, right?
41:16
SPEAKER_24: It's like I mean, we downplay the the injuries that that these athletes receive.
41:20
SPEAKER_37: And yeah, and and when it comes to the kids, we don't talk about it.
41:23
SPEAKER_37: You know, we we we talk about how great lit little league games are and pop football, you know, but yet there is real active danger to these children.
41:33
SPEAKER_37: So if that's what we're caring about, if that's the concern, right?
41:36
SPEAKER_37: That that these children might be permanently damaged in these sports, well then okay, ban all of football.
41:41
SPEAKER_37: Then I will believe that you actually care about this.
41:44
SPEAKER_37: And and talking about activism, I mean, this is a place where I think athletes need to be speaking up.
41:49
SPEAKER_37: And I'm not talking about trans athletes who are already doing so much to just make it in their sports as activists.
41:55
SPEAKER_37: This is a place where cis athletes really need to be talking about how this is going to control their bodies, destroy their careers, destroy their sports.
42:04
SPEAKER_37: They have a platform.
42:06
SPEAKER_37: And I'm I'm really hoping that more of them stand up.
42:09
SPEAKER_37: I know particularly straight athletes really need to come to the fore here.
42:13
SPEAKER_37: I know it's hard for gay athletes who are not trans to step forward on this issue, and for a lot of reasons, but like when the biggest voices out there are like fucking Martina Never Tolova being a hateful turf, where are the other athletes?
42:25
SPEAKER_37: You know, I want to see more of them stepping up.
42:27
SPEAKER_24: And I think that's when it that goes back to what we were saying in the in the previous episode, where, you know, when when it comes to people's activism and um, you know, how they get involved and when they get involved, a lot of times it has to be something that impacts their life directly.
42:40
SPEAKER_24: And it can be on either side.
42:41
SPEAKER_24: It can impact their life, meaning something taken away from them and they want to fight for it, and then they realize that their their needs uh are aligned with other people that might not be like them, but they're like, hey, you know, I'm not like you, but we both need this thing: healthcare, the ability to play in the sports, whatever it is.
42:56
SPEAKER_24: Let's fight together because we're stronger together.
42:58
SPEAKER_24: There's that impacting their life that can be an inspiration, but then there's also the impact of the life of the threat of loss of access to jobs and things like that, which stops them from speaking out because that that athlete might not want to speak out against the IOC if they know that they have a scholarship that's in partnership with Nike or or whatever it's gonna be.
43:17
SPEAKER_24: And they're like, Well, I better not say anything because I'm gonna lose my my sponsorship.
43:22
SPEAKER_24: Um, and so, you know, I think that that is the other piece of how it can impact people's lives in a negative way, in my in my opinion, and stop them from being involved and stop them speaking out and doing what's right.
43:33
SPEAKER_24: And sometimes some cases get them to be to join the bandwagon, right?
43:38
SPEAKER_24: And and and and you know, so I I do think that that is I hope that that would lead us to the conversation of maybe we don't need to have money in sports the way that we do.
43:49
SPEAKER_24: Maybe athletes don't need to get paid five billion dollars to do something if they can't, if they're going to help further uh like a political regime by proxy.
44:00
SPEAKER_24: What I mean?
44:00
SPEAKER_24: Maybe where there shouldn't be so much money in politics.
44:03
SPEAKER_24: There shouldn't be because capitalism is entering every single arena, every single um industry, and corrupting it.
44:14
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
44:14
SPEAKER_24: The that the the uh cream.
44:18
SPEAKER_24: Um cream uh yeah, but I've I've not heard it like that, but it's cream um is uh is not um the the purpose of these industries.
44:29
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of sports should be to play the sports, the joy of the sports.
44:32
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of the sports should not be to become a billionaire.
44:35
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of politics should not be to become a billionaire.
44:39
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of any of these things should not be to become a billionaire, it should be to do whatever the thing is, the impact of the intention of the thing is to do.
44:48
SPEAKER_37: Yeah, but I think so much of that has gotten lost under capitalism, and especially now in this age of like venture capitalism, where it's like they buy entire industries to ask how can we make a profit off this while like killing as many grandmas in healthcare as possible, you know.
45:01
SPEAKER_37: But that's one of the many issues we are dealing with today.
45:04
SPEAKER_37: You mentioned right before we got on this call, the UN adoption of slavery as a crime against humanity.
45:09
SPEAKER_37: Can you tell us a little more about that?
45:11
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, a couple of weeks ago, I'm really excited about this.
45:14
SPEAKER_24: Uh, you know, the UN finally uh adopted a resolution that recognized not only slavery in general, but uh uh but American chattel slavery specifically, uh, which was, you know, we hear a lot of people saying, oh, slavery existed and throughout humanity.
45:31
SPEAKER_24: And that's true, but it existed in a different way.
45:33
SPEAKER_24: And American chattel slavery was very particular in how it treated in in how it obtained, how it retained, and how it maintained the system of slavery, and then also the impact of of that even after slavery was over.
45:52
SPEAKER_24: Uh owning people, disenfranchising them, disconnecting them from education, disconnecting them from the ability to use their to earn any money because the slavery, these slaves were unpaid.
46:05
SPEAKER_24: There is there is a notion of slavery that is low paid, low wage.
46:09
SPEAKER_24: You know, I know that sounds kind of strange at this point, but there have been a history of slaves in you know certain feudal systems and things like that, where they're just working until they work off something.
46:20
SPEAKER_24: They work off a do a debt that's owed.
46:23
SPEAKER_24: They work until the thing is built, and then they're done.
46:26
SPEAKER_24: And they get paid or they can leave or they're free to do it.
46:28
SPEAKER_24: And then be the fact that they were once a slave doesn't dictate the fact that they can, it doesn't dictate or doom them to being a slave for the rest of their lives.
46:37
SPEAKER_24: And it also doesn't um impact the next generation, their child.
46:42
SPEAKER_24: So if somebody worked as a slave in another country like 10,000 years ago, it wouldn't necessarily mean that their daughter was their daughter could be a king or a prince or whatever their daughter wanted to be.
46:53
SPEAKER_24: Um but but in American chattel slavery, the mandate was not only are you a slave and I'm getting your unpaid labor, but I'm gonna make sure that your children and your children's children and your children's children's are impacted and indebted to the system that they will never be able to get out of.
47:06
SPEAKER_24: And they will be in a societal system that live in a society that will always see them as the bottom rung, the lower caste, and they will never be able to get out of that.
47:14
SPEAKER_24: And the fact that they the the the we were gonna we're gonna connect blackness to slavery in a way that's inextricable.
47:21
SPEAKER_24: And so then even when slavery's gone, people will still look at blackness and be you'll still be the lower class.
47:27
SPEAKER_24: And that's what American chattel slavery did, which is a crime against humanity, according to the UN.
47:32
SPEAKER_24: That's late to the party.
47:33
SPEAKER_24: Uh and I hope that just got voted on.
47:37
SPEAKER_24: It is it's shocking, and it's also noteworthy to see what three countries voted against that.
47:43
SPEAKER_24: There's three countries, now there's a lot of countries, a lot of countries.
47:47
SPEAKER_24: It's notable that most of the countries that supported it, almost all the countries that supported it, were what we would call the global global south.
47:54
SPEAKER_24: Historically, in the last lifetime, we would have called that the third world, but we realize that that's not, it's the same fucking world.
48:02
SPEAKER_24: Uh, but uh Western countries, many Western countries um abstained and were voted just present and not did not want to contribute, chickens.
48:11
SPEAKER_24: And then the three countries that specifically came out against tell us recognizing this were Argentina, which is a Argentina, Israel, and the United States, which all have a very particular and close relationship with each other and relationship to uh human rights or violation of human rights.
48:33
SPEAKER_24: Uh and it's also noteworthy that uh a few months ago the UN also passed a resolution that voted in the same way, these almost identical results, that food is a human right.
48:49
SPEAKER_24: Well, how could food should be a human right?
48:52
SPEAKER_24: And the United States that will drop a bomb in honor of furthering human rights is the first country to vote that food is not a human right.
49:04
SPEAKER_24: And that's because we live in this capitalist society and almost dominated world that says food, health care, water, land, housing, anything else you need is a commodity.
49:19
SPEAKER_24: And it's something to be purchased.
49:21
SPEAKER_24: And it's and it's something that should and will be sold to you, and you don't have a right to it.
49:25
SPEAKER_24: And that is a travesty.
49:29
SPEAKER_37: You know, I'm thinking about what you just said about chattel slavery and what we were talking about last week with the court and birthright citizenship, and how those two things feel to be in such opposition to one another.
49:38
SPEAKER_37: Like we're stripping away birthright citizen, or trying to, I it's not gonna work, but trying to strip away birthright citizenship.
49:44
SPEAKER_37: The thing that says your children will be citizens, they will have equal and full rights here.
49:50
SPEAKER_37: So even if you are someone who has been forced here uh to labor illegally, or if you are someone who is working here but does not have citizenship, your children will have those rights.
50:01
SPEAKER_37: And how chattel slavery was the exact opposite, your children will have no rights, you know?
50:05
SPEAKER_37: And it's like it's like the things that they are unpeeling, the things they're taking away now, all feel like they're pushing us right back towards that slavery system.
50:15
SPEAKER_24: And that was the a the the that's the difference between class and caste for people.
50:20
SPEAKER_24: I I just want to keep belaboring this because I think I I remember myself confusing the two or sort of like using the two sort of interchangeably, and class is something that you can get out of.
50:29
SPEAKER_24: Class is just a result, uh, and I'm no expert on this, but class is sort of the byproduct of your atmosphere at the moment.
50:37
SPEAKER_24: Like you don't have a job, so you can't pay right now.
50:39
SPEAKER_24: That's the class that you're in, whatever.
50:41
SPEAKER_24: And it there is a cultural component to that, but caste is something that no matter how much money you have, no matter what how much education you have, no matter what you get, you will always be the lower type because that's what you are just that's the way it is.
50:56
SPEAKER_24: And that's what you're born into, and that's who you are, regardless of what you wear, regardless of how you talk, regardless of where you live, you will always be on the bottom.
51:05
SPEAKER_24: So that someone who is, let's say, in this instance, um, black folks were born without access to education, they were born into slavery, things like that.
51:13
SPEAKER_24: Even a black person that was freed from slavery and got a job would still be lower, less of a human than a white person that was homeless on the street.
51:23
SPEAKER_37: And that even was like Nixon's Southern.
51:27
SPEAKER_37: To keep emphasizing that, saying, Well, at least you are not a black person in America.
51:31
SPEAKER_37: At least you're you know, using that racism to sort of like.
51:35
SPEAKER_32: Yep.
51:35
SPEAKER_37: And we're they're trying to head us right back there.
51:38
SPEAKER_37: Look, I think we could talk about this forever.
51:39
SPEAKER_37: And Isabel Wilkerson, if by any chance you're listening, we would love to have you on the show.
51:44
SPEAKER_37: We love you.
51:45
SPEAKER_37: We love your work.
51:45
SPEAKER_37: If anybody hears this and you're friends with Wilkerson, please let her know how much we love her work.
51:50
SPEAKER_37: But this is the end of us for today.
51:52
SPEAKER_37: We gotta we gotta stop.
51:53
SPEAKER_37: We gotta get back out to our activism, back to the streets, back to our organizing.
51:57
SPEAKER_37: Pep, as always, it is so much fun talking to you.
52:00
SPEAKER_37: I hope listeners at home, you've got some uh things to get uh working on.
52:05
SPEAKER_37: If you were looking for a way to get involved and get active, these are just a few of our ideas.
52:10
SPEAKER_37: We want to hear yours.
52:11
SPEAKER_37: Thanks, y'all.
52:13
SPEAKER_26: Alright.
52:13
SPEAKER_26: Bye, y'all.
52:15
SPEAKER_26: Bye.
52:16
SPEAKER_24: Gorgeous.
52:16
SPEAKER_37: Okay, we did it.
52:18
SPEAKER_26: We did it!
52:20
SPEAKER_37: Gorge.
52:20
SPEAKER_37: Okay.
52:22
SPEAKER_37: Right over that Oscar Wilde part there.
52:24
SPEAKER_37: I just I scrolled past it and missed it entirely.
52:27
SPEAKER_24: It's all good.
52:28
SPEAKER_24: We definitely got some Oscar Wilde conversation in.
52:31
SPEAKER_37: Yeah.
52:41
SPEAKER_24: Great.
52:41
SPEAKER_24: So we don't have to mention any of that.
52:43
SPEAKER_24: Oh, fabulous.
52:44
SPEAKER_24: Right.
52:45
SPEAKER_24: So we can just be like, thanks for watching, bye.
53:00
SPEAKER_37: Something Josh, did anything weird happen?
53:04
SPEAKER_37: There was like a moment about five minutes ago where my computer went entirely black and I could still hear things, so I assumed everything was going fine, and and neither of you seemed to notice, but it was like 20 seconds there where I had nothing at all.
53:17
SPEAKER_37: Oh, that long?
53:17
SPEAKER_25: Good grief.
53:18
SPEAKER_25: No, I didn't notice that.
53:19
SPEAKER_37: Yeah, I could hear sounds, so I was like, well, I'll keep going.
53:23
SPEAKER_24: Cool.
53:24
SPEAKER_24: I'm glad you did.
53:25
SPEAKER_24: Ooh, sorry about that.
53:26
SPEAKER_24: Good grief.
53:27
SPEAKER_24: Everybody's got uh technique.
53:29
SPEAKER_24: There's this act and uh gremlins are here.
53:31
SPEAKER_24: Okay, you want to hit it?
53:32
SPEAKER_37: So, yeah, do you feel good, Pep, going into this?
53:34
SPEAKER_37: It's like this activist by definition.
53:36
SPEAKER_37: When did your activism begin?
53:37
SPEAKER_37: Is that a do you feel a good place to start?
53:40
SPEAKER_24: Hold on, let me go through.
53:41
SPEAKER_24: Is that after okay, Briggs, Band Gay, Lesbian People?
53:46
SPEAKER_37: Or we can go into any of those after that.
53:48
SPEAKER_37: It's like down where the break between sections is.
53:50
SPEAKER_24: I'm just I I can't even scroll with my hand.
53:53
SPEAKER_24: It ha it's on an automatic thing, so I'm just waiting, waiting for the conveyor belt to bring it around.
53:58
SPEAKER_24: Allow what is it at what's right before it, just so I know when to pause.
54:01
SPEAKER_37: Uh IOC banning trans women from competing.
54:04
unknown: Okay.
54:05
SPEAKER_37: And then it says, I think it goes without saying you're an activist by definition.
54:08
SPEAKER_37: When did your activism begin?
54:11
SPEAKER_37: Or we can go back up and pick any of these issues, you know, and talk about them.
54:15
SPEAKER_24: I I think I'd I'm more interested in talking about educating them a little bit about some of the issues.
54:20
SPEAKER_24: I don't know that I want to talk about when my activism when I felt like I was being discriminated against, which is not that's probably obvious.
54:28
SPEAKER_24: You know what I mean?
54:30
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, that makes sense.
54:33
SPEAKER_21: So let's start with a little come on, bitch.
54:43
SPEAKER_37: Should we do since we're talking about like things that were just happening, should we talk about the IOC thing?
54:47
SPEAKER_24: I feel like Yeah, I think that's why we never mention it on here.
54:51
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
54:51
SPEAKER_24: Yeah.
54:52
SPEAKER_24: Um okay, I'm going past uh all the HIV activism.
55:15
SPEAKER_18: Sorry.
55:16
SPEAKER_36: No worries.
55:21
SPEAKER_24: Um IOC, there it is.
55:23
SPEAKER_24: Okay, okay.
55:24
SPEAKER_24: So yeah, let's let's talk about the IOC.
55:26
SPEAKER_24: I'm gonna mention the the UN um recognizing slavery as a crime against humanity.
55:32
SPEAKER_24: And um and l let's just like give the here's some here's a short list of uh some some things.
55:41
SPEAKER_24: We don't have to go too deeply into any of them as we start.
55:45
SPEAKER_18: Let's do that.
55:46
SPEAKER_18: Okay.
55:52
SPEAKER_24: Oh, you're already recording.
55:53
SPEAKER_24: Is it recording?
55:54
SPEAKER_24: So we don't need to do another clap, do we?
55:56
SPEAKER_24: Or should we?
55:58
SPEAKER_24: Okay, so we don't need to do another clap.
56:01
SPEAKER_24: Um actually, but if you cut this one, we might.
56:03
SPEAKER_24: So let's just go go ahead and do it.
56:05
SPEAKER_24: And one and two and three and four.
56:10
SPEAKER_24: Hey y'all, welcome back.
56:12
SPEAKER_24: This is basically part two of last week's episode.
56:15
SPEAKER_24: If you didn't watch that, please go back and watch that.
56:17
SPEAKER_24: You can watch them in any order, but we are here for Queer 101, uh, the podcast where we talk about any and everything under the sun.
56:24
SPEAKER_24: I'm Peppermint.
56:25
SPEAKER_37: And I'm Hugh the Historian.
56:27
SPEAKER_37: And I'm so excited to get back to our conversation about activism.
56:30
SPEAKER_37: I feel like we were just starting to touch some of what was happening today.
56:34
SPEAKER_37: Because if you are listening to this, I'm I'm gonna make a few assumptions that you are in touch with the queer community.
56:40
SPEAKER_37: You have some idea of what's going on, but I can say that there is such a fire hose of bullshit happening right now that it feels like I catch some things, I miss other ones, and there's so many things to be talking about.
56:53
SPEAKER_37: I mean, we could go on endlessly about queer history and the activism in history and how important it is, but I think the most important part of it is that we learn how to do better this time.
57:03
SPEAKER_37: And one of the things that is like top of my mind right now, and Pep, you and I were just talking about this, is what's going on with the Olympics, banning trans women from competing, and and in fact, how invasive these new policies are.
57:16
SPEAKER_37: And I just I knowing the history of sex testing at the Olympics, how badly it's been done, how much it has failed, how it was seen even just 30 years ago as laughable, it feels to me like we're backsliding on this issue.
57:31
SPEAKER_37: I I just can't even believe it.
57:36
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, I mean, we are.
57:37
SPEAKER_24: We definitely are.
57:38
SPEAKER_24: I mean, we're seeing uh I think it's it's a it's the proponents of all these things have learned something probably over the past few years that it's important to have people in positions of power that can do the bidding of whoever they want.
57:52
SPEAKER_24: And and so that's what we're seeing.
57:54
SPEAKER_24: And so instead of actually having people who are using comprehensive, scientific, proven uh, you know, information and and resources to with which to make their determinations about their policies, we're seeing people that are just basically saying, hey, we we we agree, we'll hold them out and we'll give this reason.
58:14
SPEAKER_24: And even the reasoning is not very um, it's it doesn't appear to be that well thought out.
58:20
SPEAKER_24: Obviously it's not.
58:21
SPEAKER_24: And, you know, because when you when it you go to even its logical conclusions, then it does di disproportionately impact cis women as well.
58:31
SPEAKER_24: Uh, you know, when we think of how you're going to uh in um uh uh implement a ban against trans athletes, you know, at some point it has to be based on how how people look and present themselves and you examining them in a way that, like you said, is very invasive.
58:51
SPEAKER_24: And so, you know, uh hopefully the IOC can will uh reconsider.
58:56
SPEAKER_24: I think that's the best we can hope for right now.
58:59
SPEAKER_24: Uh it in impact and the the effect of this, the impact of this is is is heavy.
59:05
SPEAKER_24: I don't want to downplay it, but you know, creating a ban again about on trans women from this or that is really more about communicating to people who aren't trans that we want your support.
59:19
SPEAKER_24: It's not about actually effectively stopping an issue or a problem that has happened or probably is not about to happen.
59:26
SPEAKER_24: There's not about to be 5,000 trans women uh entering the Olympics.
59:30
SPEAKER_37: Women have not about competing at the Olympics for decades.
59:33
SPEAKER_37: They're not dominating every sport, they're not everywhere.
59:37
SPEAKER_37: But what this is gonna do, I think goes back to what you were saying last week about how control, right?
59:42
SPEAKER_37: It's like, yeah, sure.
59:43
SPEAKER_37: Maybe you might think this is just the Olympics.
59:45
SPEAKER_37: But well, when does that sex testing start then?
59:47
SPEAKER_37: If you if you're an athlete that wants to be pro, that wants to go far, are you going to be tested?
59:53
SPEAKER_37: Is your coach going to want to test you before he takes you on?
59:55
SPEAKER_37: Is your school gonna test you?
59:57
SPEAKER_37: Like this is going to control the lives of so many athletes who are never gonna go anywhere near the Olympics.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_37: It's that that domino of the thing.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_24: Who are trans and who are not trans.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_24: It's going to impact cisgender women who are not trans because if you blend in, if you're trans, they're not gonna know.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_24: And they and only, you know, the only it's not like they're saying, if you're trans, volunteer, tell us you're trans, and then we'll test you.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_24: They're saying we want to get into the pants, into the blood, into the hormones of every single person coming through the door.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_24: You know, if you have an ID checking policy, you have to do it to everyone.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_24: And that's the thing.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_24: The same thing with these voter ID laws that we're seeing, yeah, you know, which kind of goes back to the uh birthright citizenship question.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_24: Um, and so with the IOC, it is about sort of um, again, manufacturing consent and changing the entire tone on how people generally feel because you can't discriminate it against, you can't discriminate against trans people and ban them from receiving gender-affirming care if you require that gender-affirming care to get into the Olympics.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_24: And so, in order to have it go across the board, you have to kind of visit every single industry and say, y'all need to implement your anti-trans, whatever it is.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_24: Are you are you a bakery?
1:01:10
SPEAKER_24: You better figure out a way to ban trans people from the bakery.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_24: You know what I mean?
1:01:14
SPEAKER_24: Because then your your your your tactic of starving trans people and saying that trans people aren't allowed to have access to food won't work if the bakery is willing to sell them food.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_24: So you have to kind of do it to everybody, you know what I mean?
1:01:26
SPEAKER_37: Everybody.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_37: And it has to affect way more than just trans people, it has to affect many cis people, women.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_37: I mean, Emmain Khalif, she is a woman who's lived her entire life as a woman, and yet this sex testing is affecting her.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_37: Castor Semenya.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_37: I mean, I think the the poster child of someone who has been so unfairly discriminated against, so demonized in the media, who is not a trans person, you know, and it's like I think it's terrible.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_37: And I the banning in and of itself, yeah.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_24: And I think that's one of the things when we talk about when we when we think of when we talk about the framing of trans athletes, we talk about they talk about it as this grown male, grown men who are muscular, full of testosterone and all this coming in to your young baby toddlers soccer team.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_24: You know, like the the imagery is a grown adult man with young female babies.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_24: And that's what team is that?
1:02:21
SPEAKER_24: That's not happening on any team.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_24: What we're talking about.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_24: We're talking about women's athlete.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_24: If we're talking of course it's to scare them, if we're talking about women's athletes, we're talking about women who are athletes who are more muscular than my mom, more muscular than your mom, more muscular than your sister.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_24: They've got if they're athletes and they've been for a long time, their chances are they've got, yeah, they probably got more testosterone in their body than they have than the average girl that's not athletic walking around the street.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_24: Pardon me.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_24: And so we're talking about people who have who are athletes, especially at the competitive level, who have a skill, maybe it's a natural skill, maybe it's an acquired skill, that's above average, above the average person, above the average woman, and probably above the average man.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_24: And the science has come out recently to show that when it comes to most sports, contact sports, they're still examining.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_24: But when it comes to most sports that aren't considered high impact contact sports, like like American football, trans women do not have an advantage over cis women.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_24: That has been examined and reported and completely out there.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_24: The only reason that this um argument is being is floating is because people picture a man fighting a young girl.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_24: That's what and they're like, well, of course a man can beat up a little girl.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_24: That's that's the entire basis of this.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_24: And that's not what's happening.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_37: I think bringing up football is such a great example for me because I think about American football, and I think, my God, this is a sport that we know is incredibly violent, that leads to so many brain injuries as well as so many other kinds of injuries.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_37: If we are worried about children being permanently damaged, perhaps we shouldn't have a football program in every school in the country that gets money and coaches and bussing, and we don't even talk about those injuries and how we're possibly hurting children, right?
1:04:17
SPEAKER_24: It's like I mean, we downplay the the injuries that that these athletes receive.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_37: And yeah, and when it comes to the kids, we don't talk about it.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_37: You know, we we we talk about how great l little league games are and pop football, you know, but yet there is real active danger to these children.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_37: So if that's what we're caring about, if that's the concern, right?
1:04:37
SPEAKER_37: That that these children might be permanently damaged in these sports, well then okay, ban all of football.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_37: Then I will believe that you actually care about this.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_37: And and talking about activism, I mean, this is a place where I think athletes need to be speaking up.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_37: And I'm not talking about trans athletes who are already doing so much to just make it in their sports as activists.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_37: This is a place where cis athletes really need to be talking about how this is going to control their bodies, destroy their careers, destroy their sports.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_37: They have a platform.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_37: And I'm I'm really hoping that more of them stand up.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_37: I know particularly straight athletes really need to come to the fore here.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_37: I know it's hard for gay athletes who are not trans to step forward on this issue, and for a lot of reasons, but like when the biggest voices out there are like fucking Martina Never Tolova being a hateful turf, where are the other athletes?
1:05:25
SPEAKER_37: You know, I want to see more of them stepping up.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_24: And I think that's one of those that goes back to what we were saying in the in the previous episode where, you know, when when it comes to people's activism and um, you know, how they get involved and when they get involved, a lot of times it has to be something that impacts their life directly.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_24: And it can be on either side.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_24: It can impact their life, meaning something taken away from them and they want to fight for it.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_24: And then they realize that their their needs uh are aligned with other people that might not be like them, but they're like, hey, you know, I'm not like you, but we both need this thing healthcare, the ability to play in the sports, whatever it is.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_24: Let's fight together because we're stronger together.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_24: There's that.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_24: Impacting their life that can be an inspiration.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_24: But then there's also the impact of the life of the threat of loss of access to jobs and things like that, which stops them from speaking out because that that athlete might not want to speak out against the IOC if they know that they have a scholarship that's in partnership with Nike or whatever it's going to be.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_24: And they're like, well, I better not say anything because I'm going to lose my my sponsorship.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_24: Um, and so, you know, I think that that is the other piece of how it can impact people's lives in a negative way, in my, in my opinion, and stop them from being involved and stop them speaking out and doing what's right.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_24: And sometimes in some cases, get them to be to join the bandwagon, right?
1:06:38
SPEAKER_24: And and and and, you know, so I I do think that that is, I hope that that would lead us to the conversation of maybe we don't need to have money in sports the way that we do.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_24: Maybe athletes don't need to get paid five billion dollars to do something if they can't, if they're going to help further uh like a political regime uh by proxy.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_24: You know what I mean?
1:07:01
SPEAKER_24: Maybe we're there shouldn't be so much money in politics.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_24: There shouldn't be because capitalism is entering every single arena, every single um industry, and corrupting it.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, the the the the uh cream.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_24: Um cream, uh yeah, but I've I've not heard it like that, but it's cream um is uh is not um the the purpose of these industries.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of sports should be to play the sports, the joy of the sports.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of the sports should not be to become a billionaire.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of politics should not be to become a billionaire.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_24: The purpose of any of these things should not be to become a billionaire, it should be to do whatever the thing is, the impact of the intention of the thing is to do.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_37: Yeah, but I think so much of that has gotten lost under capitalism, especially now in this age of like venture capitalism, where it's like they buy entire industries to ask how can we make a profit off this while like killing as many grandmas in healthcare as possible, you know.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_37: But that's one of the many issues we are dealing with today.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_37: You mentioned right before we got on this call, the UN adoption of slavery as a crime against humanity.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_37: Can you tell us a little more about that?
1:08:11
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, a couple of weeks ago, I'm really excited about this.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_24: Uh, you know, the UN finally uh adopted a resolution that recognized not only slavery in general, but uh but American chattel slavery specifically, uh, which was, you know, we hear a lot of people saying, oh, slavery existed and throughout humanity.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_24: And that's true, but it existed in a different way.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_24: And American chattel slavery was very particular in how it treated in in how it obtained, how it retained, and how it maintained the system of slavery, and then also the impact of of that even after slavery was over.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_24: Uh owning people, disenfranchising them, disconnecting them from education, disconnecting them from the ability to use their to earn any money because the slavery, these slaves were unpaid.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_24: There is there is a notion of slavery that is low paid, low wage.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_24: You know, I know that sounds kind of strange at this point, but there have been a history of slaves in you know certain feudal systems and things like that, where they're just working until they work off something.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_24: They work off a d a debt that's a debt.
1:09:24
SPEAKER_24: They work until the thing is built, and then they're done.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_24: And they get paid or they can leave or they're free to do it.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_24: And then be the fact that they were once a slave doesn't dictate the fact that they can, it doesn't dictate or doom them to being a slave for the rest of their lives.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_24: And it also doesn't um impact the next generation, their child.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_24: So if somebody worked as a slave in another country like 10,000 years ago, it wouldn't necessarily mean that their daughter was their daughter could be a king or a prince or whatever their daughter wanted to be.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_24: Um but but in American chattel slavery, the mandate was not only are you a slave and I'm getting your unpaid labor, but I'm gonna make sure that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children are impacted and indebted to this system that they will never be able to get out of.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_24: And they will be in a societal system, they'll live in a society that will always see them as the bottom rung, the lower caste, and they will never be able to get out of that.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_24: And the fact that they the the the we were gonna we're gonna connect blackness to slavery in a way that's inextricable.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_24: And so then even when slavery's gone, people will still look at blackness and be you'll still be the lower class.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_24: And that's what American chattel slavery did, which is a crime against humanity, according to the UN.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_24: That's late to the party.
1:10:34
SPEAKER_24: Uh, and hopefully something was.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_24: It is it's shocking, and it's also noteworthy to see what three countries voted against that.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_24: There's three countries now, there's a lot of countries, a lot of countries.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_24: It's notable that most of the countries that supported it, almost all the countries that supported it, were what we would call the global global south.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_24: Historically, in the last lifetime, we would have called that the third world, but we realize that that's not, it's the same fucking world.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_24: Uh, but uh Western countries, many western countries um abstained and were voted just present and not did not want to contribute, chickens.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_24: And then the three countries that specifically came out against recognizing this were Argentina, which is a Argentina, Israel, and the United States, which all have a very particular and close relationship with each other and relationship to uh human rights or violation of human rights.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_24: Uh and it's also noteworthy that uh a few months ago the UN also passed a resolution that voted in the same way, these almost identical results, that food is a human right.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_24: Well how could food.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_24: Food should be a human right in the United States that will drop a bomb in honor of furthering human rights is the first country to vote that food is not a human right.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_24: And that's because we live in this capitalist society and almost dominated world that says food, health care, water, land, housing, housing, anything else you need is a commodity.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_24: And it's something to be purchased.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_24: And it's and it's something that should and will be sold to you, and you don't have a right to it.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_24: And that is a travesty.
1:12:29
SPEAKER_37: You know, I'm thinking about what you just said about chattel slavery and what we were talking about last week with the court and birthright citizenship and how those two things feel to be in such opposition to one another.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_37: Like we're stripping away birthright citizenship, or trying to, I it's not gonna work, but trying to strip away birthright citizenship.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_37: The thing that says your children will be citizens, they will have equal and full rights here.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_37: So even if you are someone who has been forced here uh to labor illegally, or if you are someone who is working here but does not have citizenship, your children will have those rights.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_37: And how chattel slavery was the exact opposite, your children will have no rights, you know, and it's like it's like the things that they are unpeeling, the things they're taking away now, all feel like they are pushing us right back towards that slavery system.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, and that's just the a the that that's the difference between class and caste for people.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_24: I I just want to keep belaboring this because I think I I remember myself confusing the two or sort of like using the two sort of interchangeably, and class is something that you can get out of.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_24: Class is just a result, uh, and I'm no expert on this, but class is sort of the byproduct of your atmosphere at the moment.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_24: Like you don't have a job, so you can't pay right now.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_24: That's the class that you're in, whatever.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_24: And it there is a cultural component to that, but caste is something that no matter how much money you have, no matter what how much education you have, no matter what you get, you will always be the lower type because that's what you are just that's the way it is.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_24: And that's what you're born into, and that's who you are, regardless of what you wear, regardless of how you talk, regardless of where you live, you will always be on the bottom.
1:14:05
SPEAKER_24: So that someone who is, let's say, in this instance, um, black folks were born without access to education, they were born into slavery, things like that.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_24: Even a black person that was freed from slavery and got a job would still be lower, less of a human than a white person that was homeless on the street.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_37: And that even was like Nixon's Southern.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_37: To keep emphasizing that, saying, Well, at least you are not a black person in America.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_37: At least you're you know using that racism to sort of like.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_32: Yep.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_37: And we're they're trying to head us right back there.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_37: Look, I think we could talk about this forever.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_37: And Isabel Wilkerson, if by any chance you're listening, we would love to have you on the show.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_37: We love you, we love your work.
1:14:46
SPEAKER_37: If anybody hears this and you're friends with Wilkerson, please let her know how much we love her work.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_37: But this is the end of us for today.
1:14:53
SPEAKER_37: We gotta, we gotta stop, we gotta get back out to our activism, back to the streets, back to our organizing.
1:14:58
SPEAKER_37: Pep, as always, it is so much fun talking to you.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_37: I hope listeners at home, you've got some uh things to get uh working on.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_37: If you were looking for a way to get involved and get active, these are just a few of our ideas, we want to hear yours.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_37: Thanks, y'all.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_26: All right.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_26: Bye, y'all.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_26: Bye.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_26: Gorgeous.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_26: Okay, we did it.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_24: We did it! Thank you so much for joining us today.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_37: This podcast is part of Pride House Media, hosted by us, Peppermint and Cube, produced and edited by Josh Rosenzweig with original music composed by Nel Balavan.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_24: If you enjoyed this episode, then don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.
1:15:35
SPEAKER_24: And while you're there, leave us a rating and a review.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_24: It really helps others discover the show.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_37: You can stay connected and join the conversation by following us at Peppermint 247 or write to us at questions at queer101podcast.com.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_24: Thank you for listening, and remember, our history is your history.
1:15:54
SPEAKER_24: Stay proud, stay curious, and we'll see you next time on Queer One One.