Latest / Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface / Queer Media Media, Queer Magic & Making Queer Money

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Queer Media Media, Queer Magic & Making Queer Money · Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface

0:00
Hi everyone, it's Ray here. Before we jump into
0:04
today's episode, a quick note. You'll notice
0:13
that Maya and Luigi's audio is a little choppy
0:16
in places. Something went wrong with the audio
0:18
during recording and I'm not sure what, but I've
0:22
tried my best to clean it up. And luckily, our
0:26
guest's audio came through perfectly. So you
0:28
won't miss a thing. And I'm really glad for that.
0:32
Because the conversation today is special. We
0:36
were joined by Sinaloa Jonas, host of Pride the
0:39
Queer Show, a program you can catch on Cape Town
0:43
TV, or you can stream it online at freevisionplay
0:48
.co .za. Sinaloa's work is all about amplifying
0:53
queer voices and stories. And it was such a privilege
0:57
to bring our worlds together from Cape Town all
1:03
the way to China and tangentially to Canada too.
1:09
Just for this episode. I had a lot of fun recording
1:12
it. I had some really great conversations with
1:15
him. I'm going to invite him back onto the show.
1:19
It's quite possible that I will be in season
1:22
two of Pride the Queer Show. Anyway, with that,
1:26
enjoy the show. Tough questions. Honest answers.
1:33
Oh, the messy truth. Your perspectives. Let's
1:40
begin. Welcome to Kaleidoscope. I know the time
1:48
zones are quite, like, different. And, yeah,
1:51
I'm so happy that she could accommodate me in
1:54
your time zone. So thank you so much. It's absolutely
1:57
an honor and, of course, a pleasure for me to
2:00
finally do this with you guys. Okay, great. So
2:02
my name is Ruby Ray. What's her name? This is
2:06
my co -host and ex -coworker. I'm doing it myself.
2:19
About eight months ago, I started medical transition.
2:25
And in that time, when I switched over to the
2:30
estrogen hormone, it was like my mind just went
2:34
through a complete revolution. And for the first
2:40
time in my life, I could focus on what I really
2:43
wanted to do. I had known what podcasts are.
2:48
I wanted to start a podcast. I never knew what
2:51
I wanted to start about. And this just gave me
2:57
such a new perspective. So I was like, I want
2:59
to talk to people from around the world. Yeah.
3:09
That is great. So you started this podcast eight
3:14
months ago. Yeah. Okay. That is so great. Such
3:19
a new baby. I started my show a few months ago.
3:22
So your podcast is a bit older than my show,
3:26
but my show has been on the wax for like three
3:31
years before we started going into production.
3:33
So we had to like do a whole lot of planning
3:36
back and forth proposals. But that was like,
3:41
that was like in 2022. And then we only started
3:44
shooting now in 2025. so yeah oh my gosh that's
3:49
crazy um okay so what we do on kaleidoscope is
3:55
each of us takes a turn we share a perspective
3:59
that has helped us change right after introductions
4:03
and that perspective can be for example my first
4:08
perspective ever away i've always wanted to do
4:11
something creative with my life And now for the
4:15
first song, I feel brave enough to take that
4:16
step. And it might fail, but I don't care. That
4:21
was my perspective. And then I allowed Luigi
4:25
and Patrick to kind of delve into that with me
4:28
for a while, for about half an hour. And then
4:30
we went to the next perspective. Yeah. Should
4:34
I be next? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One more thing,
4:41
one more thing. As we begin, we like to introduce
4:45
ourselves with something silly, like an anecdote.
4:52
For example, my name is Ruby Ray Rieu, and slaps
5:00
fear me in the life. So if you want to partake
5:03
in that, I'll start in a few minutes, in a few
5:06
seconds. Feel free, or you can just... introduce
5:11
yourself. Normally, you can introduce your socials.
5:15
I will also add them into the description of
5:19
the show. Does that sound good? That sounds great.
5:23
Okay, great. Give me one second to think. About
5:28
what? My introduction. What are you having already?
5:33
No, I don't have anything. I think you're used
5:37
to this already. Come on. Welcome to Kaleidoscope,
5:41
a show where we explore the art of growth and
5:45
the perspective of everyday people. My name is
5:49
Ruby Rayview, and some people know me as the
5:53
woman who howls in the night. A she -wolf? A
5:59
friend. A she -wolf. A werewolf, maybe? That
6:02
makes more sense. I'm the werewolf when I walk
6:07
my dog. I am joined today, as always, by my co
6:12
-host, Luigi. And I am honored to have the host
6:18
of Fry the Queer Show of Cape Town TV helping
6:25
out here, Jonas Sinaloa. Yay! I'm going to clap.
6:35
There we go. That wasn't too hard. Should I go
6:38
next? My turn yet. I'm Carlos Luigi, and I just
6:44
want you to stop asking me if I'm listening.
6:48
Because I'm always listening to music. I don't
6:50
know why you need to stop and ask me and stop
6:52
my good vibes. I'm kind of missing Tennessee.
6:57
Your own is here before we're an actual team.
6:59
You know. It's great. Whenever it's me. The last
7:07
but most important thing for me today. Yes. Well,
7:12
my name is Tunalo Jonas, all the way from Cape
7:15
Town in South Africa. Most people call me Flicky,
7:19
as in on fleek, always on fleek. They call me
7:23
the guy who's always on fleek. I don't know why.
7:26
That was a name that was given to me years ago
7:28
when I was starting up my television career.
7:32
It's been years now. I don't think I'm on Flick
7:35
anymore. I'm a bit older now. I'm not that guy
7:39
who's older than Flick anymore. But yeah, I am
7:42
a television host. I am a radio presenter. And
7:47
of course, I am an emcee. And I must say, thank
7:50
you guys. Your energy is absolutely amazing.
7:53
I feel like I'm in the same room as you are,
7:56
guys. Well, you're in spirit. Actually, I could
7:59
just go right here. I hope you guys don't mind
8:07
me having a cup of tea. No, no, no. I'm much
8:12
cruder than you. Okay, of course. Thanks. That's
8:16
good then. Sonala. Yeah. Welcome to The Mitoscope.
8:21
And do you have a perspective that you would
8:24
like to dive in or share with us about how...
8:29
your show developed, why it developed, and where
8:32
it came from? I'm super interested, or if not
8:35
that, anything else. I think for me, the perspective
8:39
that I want to actually share with you today,
8:43
and of course probably dive in the most, is the
8:49
representation of who we are as queer individuals,
8:54
as queer identities in mainstream media. such
8:59
as tv shows tv dramas tv series and reality tv
9:03
shows um the way we are represented in mainstream
9:07
media and of course pop culture i think that
9:10
is a dialogue that i've always wanted to have
9:13
and that is a dialogue that i've always wanted
9:16
to be part of that is a dialogue that i feel
9:19
like is very important in 2025 how we are portrayed
9:26
in media especially television and of course
9:29
pop culture i think um also is there enough representation
9:34
of who we are on television if there is enough
9:38
representation of who we are on television is
9:41
it is it fine is it is how we portrayed you know
9:47
the way we are in real life or is it just for
9:50
entertainment you know and i feel like as a queer
9:56
African men living in Africa today, I feel like
10:00
our stories needs to be told. And as much as
10:04
I can see that there is a representation of who
10:07
we are on television, in media, and of course
10:10
in pop culture, but I just feel like it's just
10:12
for entertainment. It's not to touch on the real
10:15
issues that we face as queer individuals. I just
10:18
feel like it's just for entertainment. It's just
10:20
to make people laugh, just to make people entertained,
10:23
but it does not touch on the real. issues that
10:27
as queer individuals we face I'll say in Africa
10:32
and of course in a global scale internationally
10:35
so I feel like that is probably a perspective
10:38
or a dialogue that maybe we can touch on a bit
10:42
but you guys are the owners of the podcast let
10:45
me not come here and intrude I mean, what you
10:54
just touched on is very, very close to my heart.
10:59
And it's something that I've become much more
11:06
in touch to in the past year than I have ever
11:10
been in my life. And for me, it's so incredibly
11:15
visceral because I come from a place of... insane
11:22
social privilege. But even now, looking back,
11:30
my perspectives on that are still changing on
11:33
a daily basis. I'm realizing how much has changed.
11:39
And in the time that I transitioned was just
11:43
before Donald Trump got elected. And the online
11:47
sphere went from... completely fine to me waking
11:53
up and drinking coffee with an inbox full of
11:57
literal hate wow and that brought home everything
12:04
in such a big way because i started cross -dressing
12:08
uh in 2019 really that was the start of me this
12:16
is i i I normally don't like talking about this
12:21
in a place where I haven't been able to find
12:23
people because it sounds like it's a pipeline.
12:26
It sounds like you become trans. But really what
12:30
it is, it's you're standing on the precipice
12:33
of your own identity that you've locked away
12:35
and you start walking towards it. Like some kind
12:44
of Lord of the Rings. to your own identity. Yeah.
12:50
Where was I going with this? Right. So during
12:54
these four years of being frustrated and becoming
12:58
older and more involved and in touch and connected
13:01
with my own community, I started experiencing
13:04
little bits of what you're talking about. And
13:08
one of the things that really touched me was
13:11
the Danish film. The movie, I don't know if you've
13:15
watched it. No, I haven't watched it. Okay. The
13:18
Danish girl is a story, based on a true story,
13:23
of the first transgender woman in the early 90s,
13:30
1900s, who actually received surgery. And one
13:38
of the things that hurt me so much in this, because
13:42
I'm married to a woman, so... And in the Danish
13:46
film, what happened was a married man came in
13:50
touch with his own density during or early in
13:56
their marriage. They were both artists. And in
14:00
the movie, that happens in a few weeks from being
14:06
in a monogamous marriage to stealing another
14:12
man. And that didn't happen. They moved to Paris
14:17
together and they lived as a queer couple for
14:20
more than 20 years. And that is completely erased
14:24
in the movie for the sake of focusing on, wow,
14:30
this transgender journey is worse in a way that
14:35
could seem relatable for cisgender people, but
14:41
it completely misrepresents. what actually happened
14:45
and it arises such beautiful let's be in the
14:48
relationship at the same time and that hurt yeah
14:52
that sounds that sounds very interesting actually
14:56
you know now that you're telling me i've to be
15:00
honest i've never watched i've never spent it
15:01
before i think you need to to dm me the details
15:05
so that i can literally um watch it and be enlightened
15:10
more about that particular story which is quite
15:15
very interesting and it's so weird that you've
15:19
mentioned that the first transgender woman was
15:22
in the early 1900s but we are only now hearing
15:26
about these stories like starting a few years
15:29
ago and you know where was where was this story
15:36
hidden for a very long time were they were they
15:39
packed somewhere in a shelf in a shop that maybe
15:42
in 2025 will share the stories. I honestly don't
15:47
know. Yeah. And this is another... If I may interrupt.
15:54
Just on your point of why are we only hearing
15:57
about these stories now? Did you know that the
16:00
oldest goddess on record for humankind is the
16:05
ancient Mesopotamian goddess Inanna? the goddess
16:10
of love and war. And she, her story is a transgender
16:14
one. And her acolytes were non -binary. Yeah.
16:18
That is more than 3 ,000 years ago. Where did
16:22
you hear this? What did you learn next? Doing
16:25
research. That's interesting. There are a lot
16:29
of... Yeah. But I tend to go off on tangents.
16:39
Should we let our guest continue? Yeah. You wanted
16:43
to say something. You wanted to say something,
16:46
yeah. No, you wanted to say something. We're
16:48
waiting for you. No, I wanted to say, because
16:51
I've posed the question, why are we only hearing
16:53
about these stories now? And you're talking about
16:56
this goddess. And literally, I used to do a lot
17:01
of mythology. in university, my first few years
17:07
of varsity. And these are the kind of stories
17:09
that we've never, you know, really touched on.
17:12
We've touched on them, but it was like, you know,
17:15
in passing, you know, it was not like the main
17:18
focus or we were never going to be given an assignment
17:21
based on that or there was no question about
17:23
that in the essays or in the assignments or in
17:28
the exams. So hence I'm saying... These stories,
17:31
it seems like they've always been there, but
17:34
we have never been told about these stories.
17:37
We have never seen them on TV. I have honestly
17:40
never read about these stories, whether it's
17:44
a book at the nearby library, whether it's a
17:47
book at the University of Cape Town. These are
17:50
the stories that don't get told often. And Ray,
17:54
I'm not going to lie, that is the reason why
17:56
I got into television. Because I wanted to tell
18:00
the stories of the untold. I wanted to tell the
18:03
stories of the minority group. I wanted to tell
18:06
the stories, our stories, in a way that, you
18:10
know, from the word of mouth, from literally,
18:13
from the horse's mouth itself, you know. Instead
18:17
of having a producer in LA or a producer in Cape
18:21
Town who knows nothing about queer stories, but
18:24
just want to create entertainment, you know.
18:27
for you to enlighten me about these stories now
18:30
which is i'm going to go and do my research as
18:32
well i've learned something from you that you're
18:34
such a research expert by the way um which is
18:39
i think as much as we say these stories are not
18:41
being told but it is also our duty as queer individuals
18:45
to do our own research and to tell the stories
18:49
to inform to educate it is our own duty as much
18:54
as we are saying we want the world to be with
18:56
us but we need to be with the world we need to
19:01
inform the world we need to educate the world
19:03
so that you can do it in a small circle you know
19:07
of friends and that is going to spread and infiltrate
19:11
throughout your community because you've shared
19:14
with the people that are close to you and they're
19:15
going to share with the people that's close to
19:17
them so thank you for enlightening me about these
19:21
two examples that you've shared right now so
19:27
So now you were saying that the representation
19:29
of queerness on television, where you're from,
19:34
is, let's take the lack of a better word, the
19:36
problem. It's not an accurate representation.
19:42
So can you gloss over it and maybe just explain
19:48
a little bit of what that looks like? I wouldn't
19:52
say it's not accurate, right? I'm not saying
19:58
what I see on television is not accurate, but
20:03
what I'm seeing on television as for entertainment,
20:07
it does not touch on the real life experiences
20:10
of queer individuals. For example, there is an
20:16
incredible show in South Africa that is called
20:18
Becoming, right? Which shares the stories of
20:21
transgender people, whether you're a male or
20:25
a female. It's a reality TV show that brings
20:28
together these incredible social media stars,
20:33
these incredible public figures who are in the
20:36
journey of transitioning, right? And what I see
20:39
on the show is not their stories being told in
20:44
terms of when they started to transition. How
20:47
did their family treat them? How was the reception
20:49
from community, friends and family? What does
20:53
transition mean to them? Have they transitioned
20:56
physically or have they just transitioned in
21:00
their head and then they started dressing as
21:02
a man or as a woman? How is their transition
21:06
so far? Take us through the journey of transitioning.
21:08
What I see on the show is just beautiful trans
21:12
people who are just hating on each other, who
21:16
are just being dramatic, who are dressed very
21:20
fancy, going to fancy events. You know, it's
21:22
all about partying, looking gorgeous. but in
21:25
my head and i'm like but that's not all that
21:28
we bring to the table as queer individuals we
21:32
are not just bringing um fabulous life we're
21:35
not just bringing flamboyant life we're not just
21:38
bringing you know partying being rich being famous
21:42
but there's so much more to us there is a journey
21:45
of a person who's transitioning here from being
21:49
a male to being a female what happens to that
21:52
journey have they transitioned fully Have they
21:55
gone for surgery? Have they transitioned physically?
21:58
Have they gone to the home affairs? Have they
22:01
changed their identity through government channels?
22:06
Are they now recognized in South Africa as a
22:09
woman? Or does the ID still say male? When they
22:13
fly out of the country, what happens? When they
22:15
fly to another city, what happens at the airport?
22:18
Those are the things that I feel like reality
22:20
TV shows such as that could be. showing out there
22:24
to the rest of the country that as much as we've
22:27
got trans men and trans women this is their life
22:29
lifestyle but these are the challenges that they
22:33
face daily in south africa and of course in the
22:36
continent so i don't think they are showing enough
22:40
of that those shows are meant to educators those
22:44
shows are meant to inform us you know um as much
22:48
as they meant to entertain us as well but at
22:50
the same time they need to give us information
22:52
they need that to give us education there is
22:55
a child who watches that show who is probably
22:57
18 years old and is thinking of transitioning
23:00
but they're watching that show and they're not
23:03
learning anything about the journey that they
23:06
want to embark on you know all they see is parties
23:09
drama people fighting god knows what they're
23:12
fighting about but i feel like there's so much
23:16
that you know mainstream media can touch on in
23:19
terms of shows like that can educate a person
23:23
like me who's a gay man about the journeys of
23:26
becoming a trans man or a trans woman you know
23:30
um it's not an easy journey but i feel like they
23:33
just need to educate us what i'm seeing now on
23:36
on reality tv shows it's a matter of having this
23:39
gay character and all he brings into the table
23:42
is drama and and you know rich and famous you
23:46
know so i'm not saying There are no rich gay
23:50
men out there. There are lots of rich gay men.
23:52
But let's also touch on the issues that gay men
23:56
or the whole entire queer community faces in
24:01
their daily lives. If we are to bring queer stories
24:04
on television or let's say it's just media as
24:08
in general. Yeah. So it sounds like, again, probably
24:12
to agree with what you're saying, that the media
24:15
isn't really informing people. It's just a caricature
24:19
of what, let's say, heteronormativity expects
24:23
of, you know, queer people, whether they're trans,
24:27
whether they're gay. Instead of, you know, seeing
24:34
the real struggles and problems. And, I mean,
24:38
obviously there are a myriad of reasons why television
24:41
doesn't touch on that. People might not want
24:43
to watch it. It might be too painful. I mean,
24:45
you're both from South Africa. In my mind, this
24:48
is from what I know from what Ruby talks about
24:53
in her personal life. I honestly don't. And I'm
24:59
here in a place that has a lot of people from
25:02
South Africa personally. And honestly speaking,
25:04
I haven't met very many tolerant South Africans
25:08
when it's come to LGBTQ plus, whatever. So in
25:13
my mind, South Africa is a very... Not sorry?
25:18
Am I wrong? You're not wrong. Okay, you continue.
25:25
I'll speak after you. I want to hear your perspective
25:27
on that. Okay. My perspective is, just to wrap
25:31
back up a little bit, I completely agree with
25:34
you. A lot of TV shows, segments, extremely complex,
25:37
extremely painful, extremely deep art piece.
25:43
life of someone discovering their true identity
25:46
and it flattens it out to drama. And that's terrible.
25:51
And they do it because they think people don't
25:55
want to see it. They think people don't want
25:58
to know. And that's exactly what happened with
26:00
the video game industry, for example. Big corporations
26:04
do things for money because they think this is
26:07
what's going to sell and they just flatten and
26:10
erase everything of value. out of that and they're
26:14
the people that that you saw africa tell me a
26:18
situation you know i feel uncomfortable and then
26:21
come from a place you know burning away from
26:25
their own life in a way yeah i think going back
26:31
to to what you say i think south africa is i
26:36
don't allow we've got one of the best laws when
26:39
it comes to the protection of human rights The
26:43
law literally protects each and everyone who
26:45
lives in South Africa. The skin color, gender,
26:51
sexuality, it literally does protect each and
26:54
everyone. The law is absolutely beautiful. And
26:57
I think if I look back in 2025 and the work that
27:01
I've done with the TV show, I think as much we
27:05
have progressed as a country in terms of acceptance,
27:09
in terms of... allowing people to be who they
27:14
are and live in their own truth and in their
27:17
own identity. I think South Africans have come
27:21
a very long way, but I feel like we still have
27:24
a long way to go, right? As much as the country
27:27
we have progressed, and it's amazing to see,
27:30
as much as the Constitution protects everyone,
27:34
whether you are queer or not, it's amazing to
27:36
see. But I still feel like on the ground, in
27:40
real life experiences, in the street, at home,
27:43
in the communities, we still have a long way
27:45
to go. And I do agree with you, Ray. The reason
27:49
maybe that our stories are not being told in
27:55
a manner that we would like them to be told is
27:57
because maybe TV productions or TV producers
28:02
believe that people don't want to see. a lot
28:06
of queerness on television, right? People have
28:12
certain things that they want to see about being
28:14
queer on television. There are certain things
28:16
that they don't want to see. They don't want
28:19
to see two men kissing each other. They don't
28:21
want to see a journey of a transitioning man
28:23
from being a man to being a woman. You know,
28:26
they don't want to see, they're thinking that
28:28
people don't want to see that. But from my personal
28:31
experience, since I've started this show, People
28:35
really want to learn. You know, people really
28:39
want to engage in conversation because trust
28:41
me, people are raising queer kids. People have
28:45
queer fathers. People have queer mothers. People
28:48
have queer brothers. People have queer parents.
28:51
So people really want to learn and be informed
28:55
and be informed about the queer community. But
28:59
maybe we don't know what huge... want when they're
29:05
sitting in bedrooms and they decide which content
29:07
should go on television and which content should
29:10
not go on television. I don't know how they decide,
29:13
you know, but I think from what I've learned
29:16
in the past few months of 2025, people do want
29:19
to learn, you know, but there's not enough dialogues
29:22
and spacing where people can go and learn. And
29:25
I believe that television, which is one source
29:29
of media that literally has so much influence.
29:34
We can use that to educate people because you
29:38
can literally watch an American show while you're
29:41
in South Africa. You can watch a South African
29:43
show while you're in America nowadays. So I feel
29:46
like mainstream media is the perfect way to go,
29:49
but maybe they know what people want. Maybe they
29:52
do surveys and people don't want to watch us
29:54
on television. Who knows? I'm more cynical than
29:58
that. Okay, well, what's your take? I think...
30:03
I agree with you. The platform availability is
30:06
incredible. Yeah. I think that just people that
30:09
have, because exactly what you're saying is true.
30:12
Television is the perfect way to influence people.
30:18
Yeah. And as such, it is very easy to politicize.
30:22
And because of that, investment comes from people
30:26
who have money. that want to push their agenda,
30:30
and they are the ones who are going to see what
30:32
goes. We need to be rich, guys, so that we can
30:34
have our own channels, TV stations, radio stations.
30:39
Let's do it. I think you're... Yeah. I think
30:44
you're right to a degree. Now, I would go the
30:49
other way and say I don't think television is
30:53
as influential anymore. It's kind of the internet.
30:57
You know, you have other avenues of watching
30:59
TV or watching entertainment. So, you know, I
31:02
would say that, honestly, social media, you know,
31:05
YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, whatever. The way,
31:10
I think, way more accessible and maybe the, you
31:14
know, remember this nebulous group of people
31:17
that don't have so much influence on those things.
31:21
I feel like they're... a better avenue for queer
31:26
representation. But while I say that, I also
31:30
know that there are people who spread disinformation
31:33
and, like, pretend to be, you know, allies, but
31:38
they're really not. So I guess it really takes
31:42
a lot of media literacy. So the question is,
31:46
how do we really get people to understand what
31:52
isn't? you know an agenda what is genuine when
31:57
it comes to you know uh let's say understanding
32:00
uh something like queerness i feel like maybe
32:06
in the past maybe like at least 10 years ago
32:10
maybe television at least american television
32:13
did a really good job of representing uh queer
32:19
struggles like there were a lot of shows that
32:22
i thought were really really They really moved
32:25
me and really gave me perspective. Like, I thought
32:29
I knew quite a bit, but, you know, I'm always
32:33
too used to this. What I could think of is a
32:37
show called Pose, and that's on, and I don't
32:40
know if you've watched it. What I really enjoyed,
32:44
and that's... Why shouldn't you have watched
32:46
it? Yeah. It's absolutely one of my favorite
32:53
American TV shows. I love it. Yeah, it really
32:56
encompasses a lot of the struggles of gays and
33:00
transgender people, especially during the 80s.
33:04
But a time when, like, I think a lot of people
33:07
weren't even aware. I really do feel like America
33:12
has a good job of presenting those struggles.
33:15
Yes, it does. Used to, yeah, I don't see it so
33:18
much. I guess the latest would be, the closest
33:22
thing would be, like, Euphoria, which had, like,
33:25
pure teenagers. And Wonderland's a treat, so
33:27
I don't know. I'm not really, as a person, the
33:31
show Euphoria, it's kind of felt, and it's doing
33:34
good, I guess. But yeah, and I guess South Africa
33:39
doesn't have that kind of entertainment as of
33:41
yet. Am I wrong? It sounds like it's just reality
33:44
TV shows, and they're not very helpful. I think
33:48
you've touched on something. I think America,
33:51
you know, the US has done amazingly when it comes
33:55
to the stories of the individuals. Now you talk
33:58
about Pose, which has, you know, absolutely one
34:02
of the best, best LGBTQI plus TV shows that I've
34:09
ever watched. You know, I think for me, it's
34:11
the first of its kind. It was the first time
34:14
for me watching a TV series. that literally touches
34:18
on almost each and every aspect of being queer.
34:22
I mean, like South Africa, we are still a new
34:24
democracy. As I've said, we've come a long way,
34:28
but we still have a long way to go. Our country
34:31
is like 31 years old this year in terms of democracy.
34:34
In terms of the new constitution, we are literally
34:37
31 years into this democracy thing. So I think
34:40
we still have a long way to go, but I must say
34:43
we've come a very long way. i must say most of
34:47
the shows that i've watched um that literally
34:50
portrays queer identities have always been from
34:53
the us or from the not from from from europe
34:56
so i think you guys have done incredibly well
35:00
um in terms of content that is inclusive and
35:06
is diverse and um tells the stories of queer
35:11
individuals i think now that you've made those
35:14
few examples i think I'm also having flashbacks
35:17
and I'm thinking about other examples that I've
35:21
watched from American TV shows. I think you guys
35:24
have done so great. But in South Africa, we're
35:26
still very young. But I must say, I must commend
35:31
that South Africans have come a long way in terms
35:35
of accepting, in terms of being inclusive. We
35:38
are doing the best we can, but we still have
35:41
a long way to go. I completely agree with you.
35:45
I went back to South Africa. This is how I heard
35:48
about you, actually. Yeah. From the Sofan hostel.
35:56
I stayed at that hostel for two months. And I
36:02
told him about the podcast and he was like, oh,
36:05
like, write the question. And I was like, what
36:08
is that? And he was like, you should message
36:10
him on Instagram. Oh, I'm like, okay. And here
36:15
we are. And the reason I'm pointing that out
36:19
is specifically because on TikTok, the community
36:23
is so strong. And walking down the street, it's
36:28
the first time I've ever walked down the street
36:30
that wasn't like a clearly LGBTQ plus positive
36:34
country like Thailand, where you can see a brown
36:38
flag on the streets. And that was... To me, that
36:44
was, that just blew me away. I went to four cities.
36:49
I went to Johannesburg, Victoria, and Durban.
36:53
I've kept up in 10 days. For the first time,
36:56
it was my first time going to South Africa as
36:59
a queer woman. Yeah. And every single city's
37:04
experience was drastically different. And it
37:09
just shows you, like, that's it. the country
37:12
has come a long way the cultures in the different
37:16
regions have separated in such a way that you
37:20
can kind of feel where the progress is happening
37:23
yeah just by being there but yeah right it's
37:27
rapidly improving every every year i went to
37:31
south africa to change my my people documents
37:35
to do the application and i was terrified I haven't
37:39
gone back, and I guess it was an error, but the
37:44
manager of the Department of DHA, Department
37:47
of Public Affairs, the loveliest guy, we had
37:51
a long chat. He filled in the paperwork for me
37:56
to make sure there were no errors. Respectful.
38:02
Amazing. That is beautiful. And I must say, I'm
38:05
so glad that you mentioned something about K
38:07
-Town. which is the city that I live in. I think
38:12
sometimes for me, it was not so difficult to
38:18
do the show that I'm doing because I'm in Cape
38:20
Town, which is considered to be the most queer
38:23
friendly city in the African continent. And I
38:26
must say, I must comment, I must give a shout
38:30
out to each and everyone that lives in Cape Town,
38:31
whether they're queer or not. The community in
38:36
Cape Town, whether you're queer or you're not
38:38
queer, everyone in Cape Town is just so friendly
38:41
towards and very open -minded towards the queer
38:45
community, which is something beautiful that,
38:48
you know, tourists come to Cape Town and they
38:50
experience that. And they always, you know, tell
38:53
us that you guys are so welcoming to the queer
38:56
community in Cape Town. And I feel like the city
39:01
is absolutely a perfect example. of acceptance,
39:05
inclusion, and diversity, you know, in terms
39:11
of queer rights, in terms of respecting queer
39:14
rights, in terms of protecting queer rights,
39:16
in terms of honoring queer rights and honoring
39:20
queer individuals. I feel like that is absolutely
39:22
amazing that you've mentioned that. And as much
39:26
as those stories are being told on television,
39:30
I... honestly generally feel like um we need
39:36
to tell the stories of chase king is is a queer
39:40
man who's running a successful establishment
39:42
we need to start to tell the stories of queers
39:45
in business you know queers who are running who
39:49
are ceos who are entrepreneurs who are business
39:51
people and are running successful businesses
39:54
we barely don't we don't see those stories on
39:57
television And I feel like it's time that we
40:01
see those stories as well. I'm so glad that you've
40:03
mentioned Chase King. I've got one episode on
40:07
this show, on Pride the Queer Show, that celebrates
40:10
queers in business, people who are queer and
40:14
are running incredible, successful establishments.
40:17
And that is one episode that I wanted us to put
40:22
out there so that people can see that it is possible
40:25
to be queer. and it is possible to be queer and
40:29
be a boss, and be a boss babe, and be the CEO
40:33
of a corporation company, be a CEO of a hotel,
40:37
be a CEO of an Airbnb, you know? And when I had
40:46
that conversation with him, sitting down with
40:48
him, I was like, wow, it is actually possible
40:51
to be queer and be an entrepreneur, you know?
40:54
We shouldn't limit ourselves as queer individuals.
40:58
And I'm so glad that he came to Cape Town and
41:00
opened that hostel. Please tell him he needs
41:03
to open more of these spaces in South Africa,
41:06
actually. I'm going to send him this episode.
41:09
I'll make sure that he knows I would like you
41:11
better than this. Yeah. Okay, I think we should
41:16
move on. You don't have a role. We want to go
41:19
home. Do you not have a perspective? You go,
41:26
Ray. What a perspective. And I had this in my
41:31
mind. It's just whatever you're thinking at that
41:45
moment, you know? Exactly. Trying to get their
41:48
thoughts. Yeah, I'm trying to just make sure
41:51
that I articulate myself well. Okay, my perspective
41:56
is a quote that I read. You don't love me, you
42:00
love the idea. Can you say that again? And specifically,
42:05
you don't love me, you love your idea of me.
42:11
Okay. And I think that's something that can mean
42:13
differently for anyone. You guys. I'm gearing
42:20
up to tell a lot more of my own story, a lot
42:25
more of the PG... PG -13 and R -18 details that
42:32
have never come out. PG -13 -2 are... I'm just
42:38
saying that it's interspersed. The whole thing
42:41
is definitely not for kids. But I had a conversation
42:45
and there are people that I haven't spoken to.
42:49
for eight months now. Like, I'm not. I don't
42:53
know how to describe it. I've been pretending
42:57
to be a son, a brother, for 35 years. And I've
43:04
been carrying this thing with me for always.
43:07
And I'm finally, I have the courage to tell the
43:11
truth. And the message I got back was, no matter
43:13
what you do, I'll... always love you, but I have
43:19
to protect my future non -existent, current and
43:25
non -existent children from this transgender
43:28
narrative. And when you're ready to be my brother,
43:31
I will be here for you. And I was like, oh, that
43:37
was the last. That was the last. Okay. Eight
43:41
months ago or that was just now? That was eight
43:44
months ago. So. You will talk to this person
43:48
again? Or? I don't know. Oh, okay. It's up to
43:52
them. I really hate that that person said narrative.
43:59
I, if this was just like, that the whole, that
44:02
like a transgender person creates this story
44:06
that isn't, isn't not real. Like not, not something
44:12
that is like a real experience for the person.
44:16
I don't know how to say it, like disqualified
44:19
by calling it a narrative. It's not real. It's
44:21
fiction. That's a side. I just don't like that.
44:25
So I'm saying that from the perspective of a
44:29
trans person. And I completely get the shock.
44:34
The potential taken abackness that you can have
44:38
with somebody coming out. But if you're not able
44:41
to reconcile with a person. with their identity,
44:45
the person that you've known, and realize that
44:48
they're still the same person, you don't love
44:50
them. You love the idea. You love your idea.
44:53
Okay. Say that again. Say that again. I need
44:56
to hear that again. You don't love me. You love
44:59
your idea. Right. But then you also said something
45:03
like they're not really themselves. Something
45:07
like that. Am I making sense? Because what I
45:10
was thinking was... You're not totally separate
45:15
from a past self. It's always who you were. I'm
45:18
not saying that I'm separate from the past self.
45:22
I wish you could go. I wish you could rewind.
45:26
Exactly. I haven't changed. Yeah. I'm still the
45:31
same person. Yes. I've been pretending to be
45:34
someone else. To be not someone else. Just a
45:38
different person. I've been dressing. I've been
45:41
forcing myself. Right. To do something that I
45:44
don't want to do in or out of a place of fear
45:48
and in a place of not knowing. This is something
45:54
that I want to tell you as well. I want to give
45:58
queer creators a platform. That's what I want
46:03
to do. Because if I had known before my life
46:07
changed the way it has now, my life would have
46:09
reached this point much faster. Absolutely. I
46:16
have a question because I feel like you're saying
46:19
this happened, let's say, eight months ago. You're
46:24
saying the person didn't love you. They love
46:26
their own version of who you are, right? But
46:34
deep down, you know, because it seems like if
46:38
you had the conversation with the person, deep
46:40
down, Do you believe that the person doesn't
46:43
love you? Or deep down, it's just a matter of
46:48
they are finding it difficult now to accept who
46:53
you are. Because there are two things, right?
46:56
There's love, which is something that you can
46:59
erase easily and wake up tomorrow and say, I
47:03
don't love Sinaloa. That is impossible. But there's
47:08
acceptance, right? Yeah, I will always love you.
47:11
Then there's acceptance. You know, we need to
47:14
always find the balance between the other person
47:16
loves me. Okay, probably they love me. Maybe
47:19
they're finding hard to accept who I am. Do you
47:24
feel like maybe that's the case with what has
47:26
happened to you? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So,
47:29
maybe rephrase. You love your idea of what you
47:35
want me to be. Yeah. And I'm saying this in a
47:40
trans context because that's easy for me to withdraw
47:44
from. And I'm also thinking not about people
47:47
who are struggling to come to terms with being
47:53
out. I'm specifically talking to people who do
47:57
the harsh cutoff and don't become. And I think
48:02
that they still love them. The love is still
48:05
there, right? The feeling, the connection, the
48:09
memories, that's not erasable. Yeah. But if you
48:14
are more attached to that than the person who
48:20
is real and there in your life, even if they've
48:22
changed, that is cause for serious introspection.
48:27
I think, fair enough. But how do you get this
48:29
person, how do you get... Oh, it's not, it's
48:32
not something that you can enforce. Yeah. I can't
48:35
hear you. You're breaking. It's the point where
48:36
they decide to have an inspection. It's not something
48:39
you can force. You have to wait for them to do
48:42
that by themselves. And what's person to do that?
48:46
That's my question. Can you hear us? You guys
48:50
are breaking a bit. Ray, you're fine. I can hear
48:55
you clearly. It's because your beard has been
48:58
touched. Don't say it. You're embarrassing me.
49:07
You're shaving me. I just saw, Ray, I just saw
49:15
a flat behind you. I was like, let me just bring
49:17
something as well. I was like, okay, you've got
49:23
a flat behind you. Let me just have something
49:25
with me as well. It's beautiful. I thought this
49:32
for him today. Yes, I was pumped. I was really
49:35
surprised. It was a good surprise. I want to
49:38
put it somewhere though where the world can see
49:41
it. Can I? I wanted to bring it to work. Ruby
49:47
said don't do it. I want to hear your question
49:49
before I tell you something. Oh, sorry. No, I
49:54
don't have a question. I just wanted to add in
49:56
a perspective, actually. I feel like I understand.
50:01
where you come from in terms of you don't love
50:05
me you love this image this idea of that you
50:09
have of me you know there is you know the um
50:13
i get told all the time right by friends people
50:19
who are close to me people around me that you
50:22
know i love the kind of gay men that you are
50:25
and i'll be like what kind of a gay man i am
50:29
I love the fact that you're not wearing wigs
50:31
and heels and stuff. And I'm like, what if I
50:36
were to wake up tomorrow, put on a wig and heel?
50:39
Would that change the love that you have for
50:42
me? You know? I don't think so. And I'll get
50:46
answers such as, I wouldn't be able to go out
50:50
with you and party with you if you're wearing
50:52
heels. Or I'll get answers like, I wouldn't be
50:55
able to, you know. be in the same and relax and
50:59
chill with you in the same space you know so
51:02
I'm like okay you are accepting me being a gay
51:06
man but there are certain things that you think
51:09
you don't want me to do as a gay man so you are
51:12
dictating my gayness right now you are telling
51:17
me I'm accepting this I'm accepting you to this
51:21
extent if you go beyond that you're on your own
51:25
it's like the allies okay so your friends allyship
51:31
is a performance if that makes sense you know
51:33
they're performing being allied they don't really
51:36
care about you it's conditional like you said
51:38
you're not the right kind of gay man like if
51:41
you wear whatever they quit or walk around with
51:46
a dress and you're too i don't know flamboyant
51:50
and they're not just wanting to like what about
51:54
straight drag queens are they their own kind
51:58
of straight or is it okay for them to wear high
52:02
heels like well you'd have to that would have
52:05
to apply that like a drag queen is just existing
52:08
in the world throughout their day not performing
52:12
on stage at night in a very specific context
52:15
okay fair what about but i'm thinking of straight
52:20
cross -dressing that you actually don't cross
52:23
-dress Yeah. So, is it love that comes with terms
52:36
and conditions? Right? Yeah, exactly. That's
52:40
my point. I mean, honestly, it should. Like,
52:44
good love, true love, you know, what would we
52:48
think? For me, I think all love has a condition.
52:53
Oof. Yeah. All right. Let's hear it. That condition
52:57
is hate and rejection. The only kind of person
53:02
that I remember a lot is a fascist or racist
53:07
or someone who starts to come into that direction
53:12
where they hate someone or dislike someone or
53:15
reject someone because of who they are, not because
53:18
of what they've done. Yeah. I don't know how
53:21
to respond to that. You just sunblocked me. I'll
53:25
love you if you're not a bad person. Okay. I'll
53:30
love you if you're good. It's more than just
53:33
being a bad person. You can love a bad person.
53:36
Yeah. But there comes a point where you cannot
53:39
justify that anymore. You can't justify that
53:43
feeling. And I don't see how... There comes a
53:49
point where... Nobody should be able to justify
53:52
wanting to be around someone who behaves in certain
53:55
ways. And you can see it in lots of ways. For
53:58
example, say women who survive domestic violence
54:08
situations, and they go back to that moment.
54:11
Why do they go back to that? And then they go
54:14
through the kid. Attachment, attachment style.
54:18
Yeah, I know. It's like that magically, women
54:24
from society and they should be harmed, right?
54:26
Like that woman should be harmed. Why does she
54:29
go back? Like, how do you justify, how does she
54:32
justify it? And she could be murdered in that
54:35
situation. Yeah. And that's not like this. violence
54:41
is absolutely unjustifiable and he might go on
54:45
living in society after giving... Yeah, I mean,
54:47
you'd hope that. You would hope that, but it
54:50
happens. Sure. Anyway, sorry. I don't know enough,
54:55
but the reason this is in my mind right now is
54:59
because before this show, I watched Donald Trump
55:04
say or insinuate that domestic violence is not
55:09
a crime. I mean, objectively, a crime is only
55:15
defined as a crime. Domestic violence is defined
55:20
as a crime. He went on to say, crime rates are
55:27
much lower than reported because if a man has
55:31
a fight with their wife at home, It's reported
55:40
as a crime. It's not a crime. I feel it. What's
55:47
the name of our political podcast? You love talking
55:51
about Trump. Say nothing when it comes to Trump.
55:56
It's not a crime. You know. I don't know. He's
56:02
a shit staying on here. He's actively raising
56:05
trans friends. Yes. it's flowing around the world
56:09
so it's yeah it's something that i think about
56:11
constantly anyway um the reason i wanted to say
56:16
not for the reason to take this is because i
56:18
i'm not going to just found my own worker because
56:21
i feel rather stressed yeah so don't take this
56:24
to work because i still kind of want to take
56:28
it it's not even doing anything i just feel like
56:30
it's a cool flight yeah that's what i believe
56:33
in the in the in the scope of The education we
56:39
teach, it's a perfectly suitable thing to put
56:43
in a classroom. Yes, but I was also a perfectly
56:47
suitable teacher to have in a classroom. Yeah,
56:50
you were the teacher. I'm just not a joke. It's
56:58
true. You have to laugh about it. Yeah. Anyway,
57:03
I think that's my perspective. You have to bring
57:07
us something like party. Okay. Well, you know,
57:09
I got perfect. It is kind of like art. Yeah.
57:14
We need, we need. Okay. A little bit lighter.
57:20
I'm kind of a crotch field, man. I was watching
57:23
a video. You know, when I wake up in the morning,
57:27
I get ready to go to work. I can't not be listening
57:30
to something because I just don't, I don't want
57:32
to deal with my own inner silence. So I like
57:37
to just watch videos of random people's perspectives,
57:41
you know, much like our podcast. So this is something
57:44
you hear all the time. There's always someone
57:47
on the internet saying, when it comes to like
57:54
financial life, don't live beyond your means.
57:59
I always regret that. There's always something
58:01
under my... and didn't spend so much money, yada,
58:05
yada, yada. But something they always come to
58:09
is, I should have spent more of my money on experiences
58:13
and topics. Now, my take is, it doesn't matter
58:20
what you spend your money on. You're still spending
58:23
your money on something. And maybe to disagree
58:27
with you, but the idea of spending money on...
58:30
an experience like travel is to me just another
58:33
it's another ruse it's just a newer bourgeois
58:39
sentiment now you're always spending your money
58:42
on something that is finite it doesn't last and
58:48
you're always going to look for another experience
58:49
to spend your money on whereas if you buy things
58:54
you can't keep buying things because eventually
58:57
you have too much things and maybe you're gonna
59:00
Yeah. Do you have to deal with your existential
59:03
angst? You've got too much crap. But my take
59:06
is no matter what you spend your money on, you're
59:10
still spending your money on something. And it
59:14
doesn't matter if it's a vacation experience.
59:17
It doesn't matter if it's, you know, whatever.
59:21
I wish I could give you a high five right now.
59:25
Do away with the whole, you know. find more experiences
59:29
yeah i i want like i want to give you a high
59:36
five for that i totally i totally agree with
59:41
you literally and this is a conversation i'm
59:45
so glad that you literally brought this on on
59:48
the table this is a conversation that my birth
59:50
my boyfriend i usually have all the time right
59:55
I believe in spending money. When you spend money
59:59
on something at that particular time, trust me,
1:00:03
trust you me, you wanted to spend your money
1:00:07
on that thing. And at that point of time, spending
1:00:10
your money on that particular thing fulfilled
1:00:12
your heart. It's what you wanted to do at that
1:00:16
particular time. My boyfriend always talks about
1:00:20
buying houses, buying cars. and just spend money
1:00:24
on something that you can point and see. And
1:00:27
I always tell him that for me, it's all about
1:00:29
the experience. You know, I always spend money
1:00:34
on things that I will 10 years later be like,
1:00:38
wow, that was such a great experience for me.
1:00:41
That is such a great memory. I always tell him
1:00:44
about traveling, that when I have money, I always
1:00:46
travel across South Africa because for me, that
1:00:49
is a great experience. for him it's like no you
1:00:53
can't just travel and spend um 3 000 us dollars
1:00:58
on traveling or 20 000 rands on traveling you
1:01:03
need to invest on buying a house you need to
1:01:05
buy a car um and i'm like but spending money
1:01:10
on what you want to spend on it's something that
1:01:13
you wanted to do at that particular time i don't
1:01:16
care what it is but it's something that you wanted
1:01:18
to do so For me, it's all about experience. I
1:01:22
spend money on things that gives me good experience
1:01:25
and I will always pay for good comfort. But for
1:01:30
him, it's all about, you need to look at something
1:01:32
and point it and say, that's what I spend my
1:01:34
money on. And for me, sometimes it's not about
1:01:36
that. I mean, I'm not adverse to managing your
1:01:40
money, but I don't want people to get caught
1:01:42
up in the ruse that buying an experience is better
1:01:47
than buying a thing. It's all the same. I think
1:01:53
there's a secret travel. Yeah, there's a secret
1:01:56
travel lobbyist. The travel industry is quite,
1:02:01
you know, they can make more money. But they
1:02:03
said, they said just like, let's make travel.
1:02:06
I think, I think big travel is less than a thing
1:02:11
than big anything else, except for airplanes.
1:02:15
Like it depends where you travel and how you
1:02:18
travel because you can, very easily select i
1:02:21
guess you could do with all products but you
1:02:24
can't do it with oil for example if i'm doing
1:02:28
with houses for example like you can travel to
1:02:32
places that aren't controlled by giant corporations
1:02:34
and sending the pockets of yes and then but that's
1:02:40
usually not in in our in our like the site guys
1:02:45
all over the world when people are traveling
1:02:48
for experiences It's pretty big. It's some exotic
1:02:53
place. Oh yeah, for sure. Like, of course. Yeah.
1:02:58
I just, I hate money in general because the idea
1:03:03
that you have to say, how much money do you have
1:03:05
to say to be able to retire? So there's no end.
1:03:09
You go to the problem. Yeah, there's no way of
1:03:12
knowing. Yes, inflation might change. But let's
1:03:14
say an hypothetical vacuum where... Inflation
1:03:19
never changes, right? Your interest rate was
1:03:22
starting to set. You need, let's say, $500 ,000
1:03:29
Canadian dollars saved up before you can retire.
1:03:33
That's a lot of money in South Africa. Yeah,
1:03:41
yeah, yeah. $500 ,000 Canadian dollars saved
1:03:46
up and this is going to keep you. enough interest
1:03:49
and perpetuity to maintain a life after you retire.
1:03:54
So you spent 65 years saving up this money. 65
1:04:00
years? That's a little generous. No one works
1:04:04
for 65 years. What? No one works for 65 years.
1:04:10
Generally... Sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay. You worked
1:04:14
for 55 years. When did you start working? When
1:04:19
you were 10? Oh, you've worked for 40 years.
1:04:21
Oh, you've worked for 40 years. You've worked
1:04:24
for 40 years. Okay. You've worked for 40 years.
1:04:28
Okay. To save this money so that you can live
1:04:34
fruitively off of the little money that you can
1:04:37
save. Yeah. And then you can't use that money
1:04:42
because if you use it, you won't have enough
1:04:44
interest to live. What is the point when you
1:04:48
say it like that? But I assume if you're doing
1:04:53
the right investment, what I understand is you
1:04:59
invest in something called a basket. I'm not
1:05:03
a financial guru. I don't know. You invest a
1:05:08
certain amount of money and then it gets a certain
1:05:11
percentage of interest every year. It gets bigger
1:05:13
and bigger and bigger. And then by the time you're
1:05:16
ready to retire or not, you can't work, then
1:05:19
you can live off that interest, hopefully. Yeah,
1:05:23
sure. I say, you sent me a video recently. And
1:05:27
my opinion is, screw that. Diversify income to
1:05:32
a point where you don't need to invest. Yes.
1:05:35
You don't need to keep this like giant pool of
1:05:39
money that you can never touch. What a dream.
1:05:42
Yeah. And you can just do the things, like invest
1:05:47
into passion projects or run a coffee shop and
1:05:51
just write all the time. Some of us are really
1:05:54
boring. We don't have passion projects. So all
1:05:57
we can depend on is the interest. And if you
1:06:02
don't have a passion project, you need to find
1:06:06
one. Yeah, well, that's a really good point,
1:06:10
actually. If you don't have interests... You
1:06:14
should probably find entrances because it's probably
1:06:18
not healthy to just be a lunk and not do anything.
1:06:21
I feel like besides this, that's me lately. Nothing
1:06:25
more satisfying than coming home and just watching
1:06:30
TV. I just like a lot of computer news. I think
1:06:34
that's a good, I don't think playing video games
1:06:36
is a bad thing. I think nowadays, I mean, hey,
1:06:39
there you go. Diversify, baby. Get on that Twitch
1:06:42
account. Why don't you have people watch you
1:06:46
play games? I like playing video games, but over
1:06:50
the past couple of months it's just been too
1:06:53
busy trying to find people to talk to. They want
1:06:56
this and that. I'm the fun guy and making content
1:07:01
and writing. I just have a lot of time. You say
1:07:06
that like it's a bad thing. No, it's not a bad
1:07:08
thing. I love my life right now. There's so much
1:07:11
to do. I don't know if we went off on a tangent
1:07:14
from my original point. What's your perspective
1:07:18
on money? Oh, yeah, sure. I like learning about
1:07:23
how people deal with money. That's one of my
1:07:26
interests. What is my perspective on money? I
1:07:30
absolutely believe in investment. As I said,
1:07:33
like you've mentioned that in South Africa, you
1:07:36
retire at the age of 65, right? And you need
1:07:39
to have enough money that it's going to... yeah
1:07:42
that's going to literally make sure that you
1:07:45
have a stuff thing you can sustain your lifestyle
1:07:47
until you die um so i believe that you need to
1:07:52
invest money especially for someone who works
1:07:55
in the entertainment industry i once got asked
1:07:58
this question kicking off my career at the age
1:08:02
of 20 what would ha what would i have done differently
1:08:06
in terms of money i i said i would have saved
1:08:10
more and spend less money on clothes, and spend
1:08:16
less money on traveling too much, and spend less
1:08:21
money on partying, right? And instead of buying
1:08:27
clothes for each and every event that I went
1:08:31
to, because I could partially go to four events
1:08:33
a week, and I could literally have to buy four
1:08:36
outfits a week. I said, I only realized eight
1:08:40
years later in my career that I could have rented
1:08:43
out those outfits. I did not have to buy those
1:08:45
outfits. I could have literally, instead of buying
1:08:50
four outfits, I could have literally went to
1:08:52
a designer, a boutique and say, hi, I'm Sinaloa.
1:08:55
I work for a television show. I need this clothes.
1:08:58
I will give you 50 % and I'll return them later.
1:09:02
The following day, you know, so now that I'm
1:09:06
like, 10 years into the industry, I believe in
1:09:09
investments and saving so much. And of course,
1:09:13
finding projects that I know that if I start
1:09:17
with projects in 2025, I know in 2035, this project
1:09:21
is going to generate so much money. So that's
1:09:26
literally me right now. I think I spent my 20s
1:09:29
blowing money. I think I need to be featured
1:09:32
on an episode of I blew it. And talk about how
1:09:39
I blew money in my 20s. Because, yeah. So, now
1:09:42
it's all about... I got the only one. Really?
1:09:45
Okay. That's good. I feel just like... I just
1:09:49
feel like all 20 -year -olds are pretty wrapped
1:09:55
up in money. It has a different perspective on
1:09:57
that. Different experience. You want to talk
1:10:01
about some of your... Did you blow your money
1:10:02
in your 20s? Who lives to spend? Are you in Kwanhaa?
1:10:06
You went to work in your 20s. Well, I didn't
1:10:10
have much money, but I was getting paid enough
1:10:13
to sustain my life as a 20 -year -old. And I
1:10:17
feel like if I had taken some of that money and
1:10:21
invested, as you said, Dre, and invested in projects
1:10:24
that I literally was passionate about, I would
1:10:29
be ripping. I would be enjoying the benefits
1:10:32
right now. So for me. I don't come from a poor
1:10:38
family, but individually, I was not wealthy.
1:10:42
And I wasn't able to sustain myself. I wouldn't
1:10:45
have been able to rent a house and go to the
1:10:48
place where I was working. I couldn't find a
1:10:51
job. And I went to Thailand, and that's when
1:10:57
I started living. And then I was spending all
1:10:59
of the money that I was saving traveling back
1:11:02
home. Yeah. So that was a huge setback. And then
1:11:09
I went to a German company. I came to China and
1:11:13
the same thing was happening. And then COVID
1:11:15
happened and I went into a huge amount of debt.
1:11:20
I was about three, oh, sorry, maybe not my, 500
1:11:26
,000 grand in debt. How much is that? RME me.
1:11:32
Oh, there you go. That is someone's salary in
1:11:38
South Africa. That is someone's paycheck. A year's
1:11:43
worth of work. Yeah, I was about $200 ,000. And
1:11:52
now, this is the first time in my life where
1:11:56
I have enough money in the bank to be able to
1:12:01
sustain myself for... a significant amount of
1:12:05
time without being paid. And I have zero debt.
1:12:09
Well, that's what they say. Watching old people
1:12:13
on YouTube talk about life and money, they say,
1:12:18
what are you doing? That's where they wish they
1:12:20
were. They always wish they had enough money
1:12:24
to sustain themselves in case they couldn't afford
1:12:28
it for a while. Yeah, it's no longer paycheck
1:12:30
to paycheck, but for a very, very long time it
1:12:33
was. Now I live like I live paycheck. But you
1:12:38
are definitely not paycheck to paycheck. No,
1:12:40
I'm very stingy. Yeah, you're like me. Don't
1:12:46
worry, we only have a place to stay. I wouldn't
1:12:50
say I'm stingy, but I think I just, now I'm just
1:12:56
like, you know what? I'm in my 30s. I just need
1:12:59
to be more careful what I spend money on. I was
1:13:02
all about spending money on experience. And I
1:13:05
don't regret it, trust me. I'm so glad that I've
1:13:08
experienced a lot in my 20s. I don't regret any
1:13:11
of that. But I still wish maybe I could have
1:13:14
put at least 10 % away. You still can't, you
1:13:18
know? Yeah, I still have a long way to go. Yeah,
1:13:22
I still think I still care. Listen, Sonala, we're
1:13:26
going to get rich. We're going to be. Let me,
1:13:33
okay. Now, I've got an interesting question.
1:13:36
Yeah. Last couple of questions. Okay. Well, I'll
1:13:39
give you my last one. Okay. I have a question.
1:13:43
As a LGBTQ plus folks. How is mine treated? How
1:13:47
do LGBTQ people. I agree. Yeah, I've come to
1:13:56
do that. What's your question? How is my country?
1:13:58
Yeah. So, like, I'm thinking of, like, okay,
1:14:01
I'm sure some epidemic someone has written, you
1:14:05
know, about the relationship between queerness
1:14:10
and money. And money. Yeah. Is it different as
1:14:17
two queer folks? For me, it's not different.
1:14:20
But maybe Sinan has more perspective as he runs
1:14:24
and, you know. bigger circles of an LGBTQ, you
1:14:28
know, LGBTQ community. It's so hard to always
1:14:32
say that. How do the people around you, you know,
1:14:35
view money? Is it something, like, they gotta
1:14:37
live their best life? You know? Seize the day.
1:14:42
And do you think that is, if it happens, is it
1:14:46
specific to, you know, let's say queer culture,
1:14:51
a lot better? Well... I'm not going to say much
1:14:54
on that, but I'm not sure if Ray is, maybe this
1:15:00
happens in the US, right? But I think for me,
1:15:06
there is this idea that if you're a gay man,
1:15:10
I'll talk about gay men. If you're a gay man,
1:15:13
that automatically means you've got money. Not
1:15:17
sure if maybe that's the same kind of mindset
1:15:20
in the States. But in South Africa, being gay
1:15:24
is automatically attached to being successful
1:15:28
and having money. Very interesting. I don't know.
1:15:34
I still need to also try to figure out where
1:15:37
does that mentality come from. Maybe it's how
1:15:41
we live as gay people, that we're so fleshy and
1:15:50
flamboyant. and that automatically people think
1:15:54
that we have money and we're smart and we're
1:15:58
successful, we're rich. For example, people often
1:16:02
say you can't be gay and not be successful because
1:16:07
every gay man that has created something or has
1:16:11
done something, they become the master of that
1:16:13
thing. Now there's this pressure that if you're
1:16:16
gay and you're getting into an industry or you're
1:16:19
getting into a job sector, You're getting into
1:16:21
whatever you're getting into. You need to be
1:16:23
the best. I don't know why is that, but I also
1:16:28
think for me as a gay man, that was a situation
1:16:36
where I said, if no one has my back, I need to
1:16:40
have my back. So everything that I've done in
1:16:43
my life as a gay man was to prove people wrong
1:16:46
or was to say, I need to have everything in my
1:16:50
life put together. So if the world doesn't accept
1:16:52
who I am, at least I've got an income. I've got
1:16:57
a successful career. I've got money. I can rely
1:17:00
on myself. Also, I think it's a coping mechanism
1:17:05
as gay men that we need to be successful in what
1:17:09
we do. So that if the world rejects you, at least
1:17:13
you're educated enough. You're successful enough.
1:17:18
You've got your own money. But I also don't know
1:17:21
whether this idea of being gay and having money,
1:17:25
how do they correspond? That when you're gay,
1:17:29
it ultimately is your money, you know? And there's
1:17:32
a bit of classism as well. I would say there
1:17:34
is a bit of classism. Yeah, definitely. I think
1:17:38
that that's definitely an interesting point of
1:17:42
view because I'm on that right now. You can't
1:17:46
hear me? I'm on that right now. I've made a lot
1:17:51
of preparation in order to kind of prevent, what
1:17:56
if the world doesn't accept me? What if I end
1:18:01
up in a space that I definitely don't want to
1:18:05
be in? Yeah. So I think that's definitely true.
1:18:11
That comes from, that's one reason why gay people
1:18:15
have my... And maybe because it's just like doomsday
1:18:19
brother. Doomsday brother. Doomsday money. You
1:18:23
have to be prepared. It's terrifying. Yeah. And
1:18:28
I think a lot of, tell me if I'm wrong, this
1:18:33
is an anecdotal observation. Gay men tend to
1:18:37
come out earlier than a lot of other queer folks.
1:18:41
And so they have more time to prepare. I wonder
1:18:45
how interesting that is. check as a sister. They
1:18:49
come into that realization that like, oh damn,
1:18:52
I need to be ready. And so they become more frugal
1:18:57
and they save more money earlier. And maybe there's
1:19:01
a less of a stigma attached to gayness. That
1:19:04
is actually true because most of gay men, including
1:19:09
myself, we become comfortable in our sexuality.
1:19:14
when we have achieved a lot in our lives. When
1:19:18
we have achieved certain things in our lives,
1:19:21
let's say you've moved out of home, you've bought
1:19:23
a house or you've got an apartment, you've got
1:19:25
a car, you've got a stable job. Now you feel
1:19:28
like, okay, now I can tell people who I am, what
1:19:33
I identify as. I don't care who says what. Maybe
1:19:36
that's also, maybe that's also why. It's a thing
1:19:41
for me. It's something that happened for me.
1:19:44
Now, this is going to sound like I'm just agreeing,
1:19:46
but that is actually the thought I have. Really?
1:19:50
Yes. Like gay men, you know, self -actualize
1:19:55
sooner, therefore become more successful and,
1:19:58
you know, get more money, have more assets, whatever.
1:20:02
And I think there is. People are welcome to do
1:20:08
the research, but pretty sure. At some point
1:20:12
in, like, history, maybe the early 2000s, gay
1:20:16
couples were more, like, statistically more successful
1:20:19
in life and had more money and assets. Why? I
1:20:24
mean, that's what I assumed. I was like, that
1:20:27
must be why. It could be male privilege. Male
1:20:31
privilege. It could also come from the fear of
1:20:35
rejection. Yeah. I think it could also be driven
1:20:39
by the fear of... of being rejected. You know,
1:20:43
if you come out at the age of 15 and you're rejected
1:20:46
by your family, what now? You know? If you come
1:20:51
out at the age of 25, when you've got everything,
1:20:54
you've got a stable job, you've got an income,
1:20:56
you've got your own place, and your family rejects
1:21:00
you, at least you're not going to be homeless
1:21:02
after that. You've already created your own income.
1:21:07
You've already created your own... circle of
1:21:10
friends you've already created your own sense
1:21:12
of community outside your family so if your parents
1:21:16
says we are rejecting you at least we've got
1:21:19
people that are gonna support you at least you've
1:21:22
got a place to sleep at least you've got an income
1:21:24
every month i think it comes from a place of
1:21:27
the fear of rejection um if you do it at an early
1:21:34
age you might be rejected you might be homeless
1:21:36
if you do it later in life Whether they reject
1:21:40
you or not, you're not asking for their permission
1:21:43
to be gay. Yeah. One thing I want to say. Sorry.
1:21:50
Yeah. For me, being in a place of financial security,
1:21:54
finance definitely gave me more courage to explore
1:21:58
my own identity and be able to only match who
1:22:05
I am. Yeah. Yeah, I think. It definitely makes
1:22:09
a lot of sense because you need the resources
1:22:11
and that safety net. Luigi has that giant safety
1:22:15
net. He saves all his money because it's big
1:22:18
in here. Yes, to a fault. No, but it's not particularly
1:22:21
good. I say it all the time. Every episode at
1:22:25
least. I gotta work on that. It can't make you
1:22:29
miserable, you know, if you don't live well.
1:22:34
Definitely. I'll ask your questions. If it's
1:22:37
going to be an easy one, yes. Are you going to
1:22:41
a big party tonight? Because you look amazing.
1:22:44
I know you're going to an event. Yeah. Did you
1:22:48
rent the clothes you're wearing? I know I'm going
1:22:50
to change. Oh, right. But you look good enough
1:22:53
to go. Thank you. Another thing is I could wear
1:22:58
this, but the weather is a bit windy outside.
1:23:02
I might be... cold getting we are in spring now
1:23:06
so we chase in summer our spring in town has
1:23:11
a different weather from the rest of the african
1:23:13
continent our spring is very cold we in spring
1:23:17
but it's a bit cold i would love to wear this
1:23:20
but let's say around 5 p .m south african time
1:23:24
i would get cold so i need to change into something
1:23:28
else yeah also i just wore this because i was
1:23:31
like i'm indoors it's quite warm the windows
1:23:34
are closed because i don't want outside noise
1:23:36
and it's warm here yeah i think we should probably
1:23:40
do that so what was this what was the question
1:23:42
again sorry did you ask your question that was
1:23:45
the question where are you going tonight so i
1:23:53
since i've started the show pride the queer show
1:23:55
i've been getting a lot of requests you know
1:23:58
to attend um queer events to be part of panels
1:24:03
and queer events to be part of um to be part
1:24:07
of to cover queer events for my show but tonight
1:24:11
i'm going to a queer space a queer club called
1:24:14
manhattan avenue it's right here in cape town
1:24:18
it's a beautiful queer um club it's amazing it's
1:24:23
one of those spaces where you feel safe as a
1:24:25
queer individual so i've been invited they've
1:24:28
got an event tonight it's um It's open to each
1:24:32
and everyone who's queer and, of course, allies.
1:24:35
Everyone wants to go. So they invited me to come
1:24:37
through. They want me to tell the audience about
1:24:40
my show, to go on stage and tell the audience
1:24:43
about the work that I do on television with the
1:24:45
show. So they invited me to come at the event
1:24:49
to actually inform people and advertise my show.
1:24:53
So I think that is a great opportunity for me
1:24:56
to actually do that. I mean, like, we are 11
1:24:59
episodes into the show. Tomorrow is our 10th.
1:25:03
Then next week, 11th episode. So we're almost
1:25:06
done with this season. So I think, yeah, I'm
1:25:11
going. I'm not going to spend much time. I'll
1:25:12
probably spend two hours, come back and sleep.
1:25:15
That's it. So it's an event at Manhattan Avenue.
1:25:19
Absolutely one of the best gay places in gay
1:25:24
town. Would you like to tell our listeners about
1:25:28
your social media accounts and how they can find
1:25:31
you? All right. So if you are all the way from
1:25:35
the U .S. or from Europe or from Middle East
1:25:38
and you'd like to follow me, it's simple. You
1:25:41
can find me on all social media platforms. I'm
1:25:43
Senado Jonas, whether it's Facebook, TikTok,
1:25:46
Instagram, LinkedIn, X slash Twitter. I'm Sinalo
1:25:52
Jonas all over. And of course, you can follow
1:25:55
the show on Instagram. It's at Pride The Queer
1:25:59
Show. Or you can just hashtag us if you want
1:26:01
to communicate with us. Hashtag Pride The Queer
1:26:04
Show. So it's easy to find me. It's at Sinalo
1:26:07
Jonas throughout. I told you I'm not cool enough
1:26:11
for social media. You can contact me through
1:26:15
me. I'm happy. And Susan is not ready to share.
1:26:20
It's kind of lame. I need to post more. I also
1:26:23
don't post as often, guys. Be on social media
1:26:27
and update your friends. I'm firefromheat on
1:26:32
Instagram. heatfromfire on TikTok. And rudelyrandio
1:26:38
on YouTube. Get it. Thank you so much for coming
1:26:41
on our show. So, if you don't mind. I'm going
1:26:47
to stop the recording. Just stay on the line
1:26:50
for a little bit to check if your upload is finished.
1:26:54
Okay, cool. When are you guys coming to South
1:26:56
Africa? Hi there, it's Ray again. If you've stuck
1:27:11
all the way through to the end, again, I am so
1:27:13
sorry for the poor quality of audio this time.
1:27:18
I'm working on permanent solutions and learning
1:27:21
as I go. I've had such fun growing this podcast,
1:27:26
you know. Yeah, if you have any suggestions or
1:27:30
things that you think I should try. Please let
1:27:33
me know. Let me know if there's content. Let
1:27:35
me know if you want to be on the show. I would
1:27:40
be glad to have you. I'm also starting another
1:27:44
podcast called In Confidence. You can send me
1:27:48
your confidential stories, the stories that don't
1:27:52
normally get to see the light of day, and I'm
1:27:55
going to read them and share them. You're also
1:27:58
welcome to come onto the show anonymously or
1:28:01
not. and share your story with me. It's something,
1:28:09
it's a bit of a passion project. I'm not sure
1:28:11
how it's going to work, but I'm really excited.
1:28:14
And if you want to see a lot of that, more content,
1:28:19
of course, don't forget to like and subscribe.
1:28:23
You can find, also comment in the doobly -doo.
1:28:26
You can find... sinalo at sinalo jonas on instagram
1:28:31
tiktok x he's not on youtube um and you can find
1:28:37
pride the queer show at pride the queer show
1:28:40
on instagram i'm not sure if they're on tiktok
1:28:42
as well don't forget to stream anyway have a
1:28:47
good one love you bye