Latest / Inside Politics / Best of 2025: Bill Shorten on Albanese's Trump triumph, and the opposition's next move

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Best of 2025: Bill Shorten on Albanese's Trump triumph, and the opposition's next move · Inside Politics

• 0:01
  S1: Hi, it's Jacqueline Maley here. We're still on a summer break,
• 0:04
  S1: but we're set to return in two weeks for another
• 0:06
  S1: year of inside Politics. Today we're going back to a
• 0:09
  S1: 2025 episode released just after Anthony Albanese's successful meeting with
• 0:14
  S1: Donald Trump, and one in which we had a special guest,
• 0:17
  S1: former labor opposition leader Bill shorten. Bill also had some
• 0:21
  S1: advice for the Liberal opposition and its leader, Sussan Ley,
• 0:24
  S1: before a slight diversion into discussing the dress sense of
• 0:27
  S1: our chief political correspondent, Paul Cicala. Bill, you're running a
• 0:35
  S1: university now. We just want to ask you about the
• 0:37
  S1: transition from politics. And there must be a part of you,
• 0:40
  S1: a little tiny, tiny part of you that looks at
• 0:42
  S1: the events of the week with Anthony Albanese in the
• 0:46
  S1: white House and thinks that could have been me, because
• 0:48
  S1: you were very much a contender.
• 0:51
  S2: Ah, I'd have to say that part of me you
• 0:53
  S2: would need a microscope to find. Really. I find it
• 0:56
  S2: incredibly interesting. And obviously I want Australia to do as
• 1:01
  S2: well as we can. So the biggest emotion I had
• 1:04
  S2: watching the week was one of relief. I think it
• 1:07
  S2: went as well as any foreign leader's visits gone with
• 1:11
  S2: The Donald. So yeah, I was just relieved for Anthony.
• 1:15
  S2: I was relieved for the government and even more importantly,
• 1:18
  S2: I was relieved for Australia.
• 1:20
  S3: It felt a little bit absurd just having to sign
• 1:22
  S3: you into the Parliament as a guest. And the security
• 1:26
  S3: people looked at you and thought, how is this bloke
• 1:27
  S3: a guest? How does it feel being back in here?
• 1:30
  S3: And are you like some of the other politicians who
• 1:32
  S3: the weaning off politics is like getting rid of a
• 1:34
  S3: drug addiction.
• 1:35
  S2: Are listen again to. You know, I must be more
• 1:39
  S2: in touch with my emotional side since I've come on
• 1:41
  S2: this podcast in the last 38 seconds. But what was
• 1:44
  S2: really nice is that the lady attendant said, oh, Mr. Shorten,
• 1:48
  S2: we need to see your ID but for me, I'm
• 1:51
  S2: a glass half full guy. So I thought, oh, she
• 1:53
  S2: still remembers my name. No. And the security guards are lovely. So, um. Yeah,
• 1:59
  S2: but I'm glad to see that, you know, they've got
• 2:02
  S2: a system for me and. Yeah, it's it's fine. I
• 2:05
  S2: must get around to getting a pass, but I think
• 2:07
  S2: the the the question underlying it, Paul, you're asking me
• 2:10
  S2: is am I missing the joint? Uh, no. I think
• 2:14
  S2: what happens is really important. But I've now got this
• 2:17
  S2: fabulous new job leading the University of Canberra. Uh, and
• 2:20
  S2: I can still impact the national interests by helping ensure
• 2:24
  S2: that people get good education. We do good research. So
• 2:27
  S2: I now live in Canberra. Uh, having flown here as
• 2:31
  S2: a sort of parliamentary mining town, fly in, fly out
• 2:34
  S2: for 17.5 years. I now live here. I'm not sure
• 2:37
  S2: my family's totally happy about that, but they're getting used
• 2:41
  S2: to Canberra. No, but I like my new job. And, um,
• 2:44
  S2: I'm pleased to see that the mesmerising rollercoaster which is
• 2:51
  S2: President Trump and the administration, I'm pleased to see that, um,
• 2:55
  S2: Anthony dance between the raindrops and seemed to get some
• 2:58
  S2: good outcomes for Australia and the way through.
• 3:00
  S1: Yeah, so let's get into that. Because whatever politics you
• 3:03
  S1: might still have, we're happy to help you scratch. If
• 3:05
  S1: that doesn't sound too.
• 3:06
  S2: I'm still interested.
• 3:07
  S1: Yes, we want to get into Albo in Washington. It
• 3:09
  S1: was obviously the story of the week. It was pretty
• 3:11
  S1: much the story. I watched the whole press conference again
• 3:14
  S1: last night, and I was just so intrigued by the
• 3:16
  S1: body language and the theatrics of it, and the way
• 3:18
  S1: that Donald Trump sort of imposes his control over the
• 3:21
  S1: whole show by putting down journalists, notably our own Michael Koziol.
• 3:26
  S4: Who do you where do you come from? Australia. What?
• 3:29
  S4: Who are you with?
• 3:30
  S5: Sydney Morning Herald.
• 3:31
  S4: Nasty guy. Go ahead.
• 3:32
  S5: Sorry.
• 3:33
  S4: All right. Go ahead.
• 3:35
  S5: On your, um, your first.
• 3:37
  S1: Anthony Albanese's to me seemed quite nervous at the beginning.
• 3:39
  S1: He was fiddling with his pen. He was fidgeting his
• 3:42
  S1: hands like that was a real tell. What do you think?
• 3:45
  S1: You've you've met, you know, world leaders. You've been in
• 3:48
  S1: high stakes negotiations. You've been in these kinds of rooms,
• 3:52
  S1: if not the white House itself. What would Anthony Albanese
• 3:55
  S1: have been feeling going into that meeting.
• 3:58
  S2: He would have been hyper prepared. Uh, I think the government,
• 4:03
  S2: I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the government would
• 4:06
  S2: have war gamed, uh, this meeting within an inch of
• 4:09
  S2: its life, as they should. But what I really thought
• 4:12
  S2: was good is the, uh, rare earths deal was clever.
• 4:16
  S2: At the end of the day, whatever else people think
• 4:18
  S2: about the government in America, they know they need rare minerals,
• 4:23
  S2: rare earths. And we came with a deal which was
• 4:26
  S2: in their sweet spot. Uh, so I think it was
• 4:29
  S2: a smart deal. It was a smart arrangement.
• 4:31
  S4: You know, the man on my right has a big advantage.
• 4:34
  S4: You know that, right? Uh, but I think he's doing
• 4:36
  S4: a really I think he's doing a really good job.
• 4:39
  S4: And we've had a very good relationship. I don't want
• 4:41
  S4: to compare one.
• 4:41
  S2: It was interesting. I don't know how they do the
• 4:43
  S2: protocols of do you sit down in an armchair opposite
• 4:46
  S2: The Donald, or do you sit at the big table?
• 4:49
  S2: I thought the big table was much more professional looking. Yeah. Anyway.
• 4:52
  S2: And obviously.
• 4:53
  S3: Couches.
• 4:54
  S2: Even though Kevin got some free character advice from The
• 4:56
  S2: Donald on the way through, I think Kevin must have
• 4:58
  S2: done some good behind the scenes work. I thought that
• 5:00
  S2: was Australian diplomacy at its most professional. And so, yeah,
• 5:04
  S2: I'm sure Anthony knew that for all a sort of
• 5:08
  S2: laid back nature, we'll see him when we see him.
• 5:11
  S2: That was an important meeting. And if you weren't, I
• 5:14
  S2: don't claim to understand if he was nervous or not,
• 5:16
  S2: but if you weren't feeling nervous, you wouldn't be human. Yeah. Because,
• 5:20
  S2: you know, President Trump, you know, sort of probably has, uh,
• 5:25
  S2: more changeability than Melbourne weather.
• 5:27
  S1: Yeah, I thought I thought he seemed nervous only because
• 5:30
  S1: of the hands. But then he mastered those nerves very,
• 5:33
  S1: very masterfully. Paul.
• 5:34
  S3: Body language expert. Jack.
• 5:36
  S1: Yeah, I was I think the theatrics of it are
• 5:38
  S1: really interesting. And maybe it's the novelist in me, but
• 5:41
  S1: I'm just looking at the sort of interpersonal stuff as
• 5:43
  S1: well as the political. But so, Paul, the overwhelming consensus
• 5:46
  S1: was the meeting was obviously a roaring success. We got
• 5:48
  S1: the critical minerals deal. I mean, you cannot pick fault
• 5:50
  S1: with that. It's like this beautiful confluence of timing opportunity.
• 5:54
  S1: But what about the orcas stuff? Let's talk about orcas
• 5:56
  S1: because that was a significant matter as well. We got
• 5:59
  S1: a lot of reassurances. Michael Koziol, our own reporter, asked
• 6:03
  S1: Trump about it, and Trump gave all these reassurances. Paul,
• 6:07
  S1: I'll go to you first. I mean, how much can
• 6:09
  S1: we count on those reassurances on on orcas? Like what?
• 6:12
  S1: When you drill down, do we actually get anything on
• 6:14
  S1: orcas from Trump?
• 6:16
  S3: Yeah. Well, I think having him make a declarative comment
• 6:19
  S3: as he did was critical, even if there might have
• 6:22
  S3: been a bit of bluster in it, even though he
• 6:24
  S3: might have overruled his Navy chief sitting across the desk,
• 6:27
  S3: who said that there was still some tweaks with orcas
• 6:29
  S3: that needed to be looked at. Having Trump speak positively
• 6:32
  S3: about the deal, which has been up for review for
• 6:34
  S3: months now, was absolutely crucial because no matter what, Elbridge Colby,
• 6:39
  S3: the defense undersecretary in the Pentagon, thinks about the ability
• 6:43
  S3: for the US to give up subs in six years,
• 6:45
  S3: which had not been produced at a high enough quantity.
• 6:48
  S3: When you've got presidential authority, you put your seal on it.
• 6:51
  S3: So that was crucial for Australia. There are still obviously
• 6:54
  S3: big questions about how Aukus lands in 5 or 6
• 6:57
  S3: years time. It's soaking up a lot of our defence budget.
• 7:00
  S3: There are still huge questions about whether the US will
• 7:03
  S3: give up subs in the end. And Bill, I thought
• 7:06
  S3: I'd just move to where we wanted to go next,
• 7:08
  S3: which was with these questions still looming over Aukus and
• 7:12
  S3: how a future president might deal with Australia and whether
• 7:15
  S3: they'll be willing to hand these over. Do you think
• 7:18
  S3: there is still scope for an Australian government to do
• 7:21
  S3: more examination of the Yorkist deal? Would you have signed
• 7:24
  S3: up to Aukus as quickly as this labor government did,
• 7:27
  S3: almost without review?
• 7:29
  S2: Um, well, I think the first part was the importance
• 7:34
  S2: of President Trump endorsing Aukus. I mean, the MAGA movement
• 7:39
  S2: which sustains Donald Trump's electoral success, the Make America Great
• 7:45
  S2: Again has a very strong isolationist tendency that they don't
• 7:50
  S2: want to get involved in the rest of the world's problems.
• 7:52
  S2: Leave them alone. And sometimes that aspect of President Trump's
• 7:57
  S2: policies emerges. But what I thought we saw on display
• 8:01
  S2: was the, I think for Australia, the more reassuring, internationalist,
• 8:06
  S2: more classical republican play that they've got a role in
• 8:10
  S2: the world and without, you know, overhyping the China America rivalry.
• 8:16
  S2: The Americans were giving at their most senior level reassurance
• 8:22
  S2: that Aukus is part of this MAGA administration. So I
• 8:27
  S2: think that was not to be underestimated. In terms of
• 8:31
  S2: your point about the scrutiny of the deal, like this
• 8:35
  S2: deal is going to be scrutinised for the next 20 years,
• 8:38
  S2: like it's the auditing of this Aukus scheme and value
• 8:42
  S2: is going to spawn university degrees and industries of auditors.
• 8:47
  S3: But the government hasn't examined it.
• 8:49
  S2: I think you'll find the government does examine a lot
• 8:52
  S2: of its expenditure. And the Americans have an expression about
• 8:57
  S2: momentum in politics, and they call it the Big Mo.
• 9:00
  S2: And I think the orcas got some big Mo again
• 9:04
  S2: this week. And, you know, in the atmospherics of there's
• 9:10
  S2: no bigger circus or show on earth at the moment
• 9:13
  S2: than the Trump White House. It doesn't mean it's anything
• 9:16
  S2: happening in the world. It's obviously not. But, uh, that
• 9:20
  S2: was Australia's sort of 15 minutes in the big circus,
• 9:23
  S2: and we got out with our skin intact and a
• 9:26
  S2: deal done. So yeah, I think this week was quite remarkable.
• 9:32
  S1: I note as well, I looked at the New York
• 9:34
  S1: Times website this morning and the, the, the main story
• 9:37
  S1: on the New York Times website is about America's sort
• 9:39
  S1: of deals on critical minerals. And you click through and
• 9:41
  S1: there's a big old photo of Anthony Albanese. So, I mean,
• 9:44
  S1: it's not often that that we would make international news
• 9:47
  S1: in that way, or that an Australian prime minister would.
• 9:49
  S1: I want to ask you both about this other comment
• 9:51
  S1: that Trump made, though, kind of related to Aukus, where
• 9:54
  S1: he was asked about China and the threat of China
• 9:56
  S1: and whether or not China has any interest in invading Taiwan.
• 9:59
  S1: And he said, oh, I don't think we're going to
• 10:01
  S1: need it. When speaking about the Aukus pact, because he
• 10:04
  S1: doesn't think that President XI is going to make any
• 10:07
  S1: moves on Taiwan. And I thought that was an extraordinary
• 10:09
  S1: thing for an American president to say in the context
• 10:12
  S1: of having batted down this pact and, you know, made
• 10:14
  S1: sort of positive noises about this pact and then say, oh,
• 10:17
  S1: I don't think we're going to need it anyway. Paul,
• 10:19
  S1: why would he say that? Was it just bluster or
• 10:21
  S1: what's going on there?
• 10:22
  S3: Yeah, I think he said two things on Aukus in
• 10:25
  S3: terms of its relation to China. He did say explicitly
• 10:28
  S3: that it was a deterrent, and that that was a
• 10:30
  S3: key element of the Yorkist deal was to deter China.
• 10:33
  S3: But in the same breath, he made this comment that,
• 10:36
  S3: as you say, I don't think we're going to need
• 10:37
  S3: it because he has a benign view of President Xi's
• 10:40
  S3: intentions in relation to Taiwan. I think probably what you're
• 10:44
  S3: seeing there, it's a bit hard to read. Trump I
• 10:46
  S3: don't claim to have all the answers, but he's made
• 10:48
  S3: a bunch of different comments over his administration and in
• 10:51
  S3: his first term about his ability to, through his unpredictability,
• 10:55
  S3: his kind of mercurial nature, and his threats to use
• 10:58
  S3: hard US power, his ability to keep people like, gee,
• 11:02
  S3: like Putin, like actors in the Middle East, like Kim
• 11:05
  S3: Jong UN from North Korea, to keep them calm and
• 11:09
  S3: through his kind of force of nature, stop them from
• 11:12
  S3: taking drastic action that might hurt us interests. I mean,
• 11:15
  S3: I don't think he was reflecting the strategic reality of
• 11:18
  S3: the relationship with China. The balance of power is much
• 11:21
  S3: more contested than he suggested. He said the US has
• 11:24
  S3: much more military might than China in the Indo-Pacific. That's
• 11:26
  S3: just not right. According to analysts and his own chief advisers,
• 11:31
  S3: Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio and the chief of the Navy,
• 11:33
  S3: who were sitting on the same table as him, have
• 11:35
  S3: all said in recent months that China's threat in the
• 11:38
  S3: Indo-Pacific in relation to Taiwan is potentially imminent and a
• 11:42
  S3: crucial topic for concern of US strategy. So I think
• 11:46
  S3: there's Trump trying to keep the relationship with China from
• 11:49
  S3: not boiling over, particularly as he's about to meet XI
• 11:53
  S3: as this trade war is becoming more real over critical minerals.
• 11:57
  S3: I think that was more politics and bluster than reflecting
• 12:00
  S3: US strategy.
• 12:01
  S1: Bill, what did you make of that comment?
• 12:04
  S2: I think, um, Western strategists almost have a twin track
• 12:10
  S2: strategy about China and Taiwan. Mhm. On one hand, it's
• 12:14
  S2: certainly the case that the defense establishment and our security
• 12:19
  S2: agencies are very conscious of Chinese espionage and their military expansion.
• 12:26
  S2: But on the other hand, we recognize that you never
• 12:29
  S2: want to put someone in a corner where they feel
• 12:31
  S2: there's only one option. Yeah. So I don't know if
• 12:34
  S2: there was any conscious strategy in what President Trump said
• 12:37
  S2: by sort of not always using bellicose language about China. Mhm.
• 12:42
  S2: I mean, I recently had the opportunity to go to
• 12:44
  S2: Taiwan to uh, visit with Taiwanese universities. And I was curious,
• 12:49
  S2: what is the sort of person in the street in Taiwan.
• 12:52
  S2: Think about China. And I can't pretend after five days
• 12:55
  S2: I worked that all out. But I think Taiwanese people
• 12:59
  S2: know they've got a neighbor who's very different to them.
• 13:03
  S2: But they weren't perhaps as obsessed about imminent Chinese conflict
• 13:09
  S2: as some of our Western agencies. But whether or not
• 13:12
  S2: that's because people have learned to sort of live with
• 13:15
  S2: their neighbor without necessarily fully trusting their neighbor, that could
• 13:19
  S2: be it. But I thought, I'm quite happy when I
• 13:22
  S2: hear world leaders not talk in a bellicose fashion. So,
• 13:26
  S2: you know, again, take your wins. And I think though,
• 13:29
  S2: the security establishments are still very mindful of China. And
• 13:34
  S2: I think one of the big challenges for Western leaders
• 13:37
  S2: is that a lot of Western leaders and politicians operate
• 13:42
  S2: on personal relationships and negotiations, whereas I think some of
• 13:46
  S2: the more autocratic countries, it's not just about personal relationships.
• 13:50
  S2: And I think sometimes Western liberal democracies struggle with the
• 13:55
  S2: notion that you might have people or nations who just
• 13:58
  S2: don't care about the rule of law. I'm not putting
• 14:00
  S2: China fully in that category. But take, for instance, Russia.
• 14:04
  S2: You could have a personal relationship with Putin, but I'm
• 14:06
  S2: not sure that changes any facts on the ground about
• 14:09
  S2: Russian expansionism.
• 14:10
  S3: Do you think the PM struck up a did it
• 14:12
  S3: look like a real rapport with Trump? Do you think
• 14:15
  S3: Trump would call the PM if he's wondering about China strategy?
• 14:18
  S2: Even accepting my rubric that perhaps we sometimes deal with
• 14:22
  S2: dictatorships and authoritarian countries for whom personal relationships aren't the
• 14:27
  S2: sort of meat and potatoes of politics? I think with Trump,
• 14:31
  S2: personal relationships is important. I also think that Trump has
• 14:36
  S2: a worldview and, you know, whether or not you agree
• 14:39
  S2: with it or not. He seems to like winners. Anthony's
• 14:43
  S2: victory in May of this year was pretty decisive.
• 14:46
  S1: And he mentioned that I mean, he really mentioned that
• 14:48
  S1: he's aware of that. Um, yeah, Trump mentioned that. I mean.
• 14:52
  S2: Whether or not you think that's the right logic to have.
• 14:55
  S2: I mean, also, apparently Trump likes people who are physically pleasing,
• 14:59
  S2: you know, and physically pleasing. Yeah.
• 15:02
  S1: Well, I don't think we can accuse our Prime Minister
• 15:04
  S1: of that, but let's not make personal comments about people's looks.
• 15:08
  S2: No, no, no, I was talking about Trump. But mind you,
• 15:11
  S2: talking about personal comments, one of the sort of sideshows
• 15:14
  S2: of the whole visit was the media's sort of love
• 15:18
  S2: hate with The Donald.
• 15:19
  S1: Yeah, I know.
• 15:20
  S2: As much as I'm sure journalists hate being told off
• 15:22
  S2: by him, I feel that they must sort of swagger
• 15:25
  S2: back into their media rooms in Australia and say, hey, yeah,
• 15:29
  S2: he insulted me. So. Oh yeah, it's a sort of
• 15:32
  S2: a sort of bondage relationship.
• 15:33
  S1: It's like a badge of honour, I reckon. Now it's
• 15:35
  S1: all good for business if you're a journalist.
• 15:37
  S2: Yeah, it's a bit like it's right up there with
• 15:40
  S2: being blacklisted by the Russians.
• 15:41
  S1: Yeah, yeah. So it's all good for business.
• 15:43
  S3: I wanted to ask you about something Sean Carney, our columnist,
• 15:46
  S3: wrote today. He talked about the elements of luck and
• 15:49
  S3: circumstance that have led to the Prime Minister being in
• 15:51
  S3: the position he's in. He's often been quite critical of
• 15:53
  S3: the Prime Minister, I should say. He mentioned that the
• 15:56
  S3: PM was in the UK talking about our lack of
• 15:59
  S3: illegal immigration being a key reason we don't have a
• 16:01
  S3: populist right movement. The Prime Minister obviously fought very hard
• 16:04
  S3: against that policy in 2015. When you shifted Labour policy
• 16:08
  S3: on that question in response to the turn back policy.
• 16:10
  S3: You've also, as a leader of the Labour right, fought
• 16:12
  S3: against Albaneses left faction since you were at university, in
• 16:17
  S3: terms of how the Labor Party should relate to the
• 16:19
  S3: US and how strongly it should support the US alliance,
• 16:22
  S3: someone who's known him for a long time. The Prime
• 16:24
  S3: Minister said to me last week that he's growing in
• 16:27
  S3: the role because he's turning into someone who puts stewardship
• 16:30
  S3: of the country and nurturing of our institutions ahead of
• 16:34
  S3: his personal ideology. Do you see him growing into the
• 16:37
  S3: role in that way?
• 16:38
  S2: You watch people get elected and some shrink and some grow.
• 16:43
  S2: And I think Anthony's clearly in the he's doing better.
• 16:47
  S2: Each experience builds his confidence. And also just you learn
• 16:51
  S2: valuable lessons. You can't really understand leadership until you've been there. And, um,
• 17:00
  S2: whilst I haven't been prime minister, I know what it's
• 17:02
  S2: like to lead the party. And you just see he
• 17:06
  S2: backs his own judgement a fair bit. And I think
• 17:08
  S2: that's what a leader actually has to do. When you're
• 17:11
  S2: a leader of a mainstream political party in this country,
• 17:14
  S2: you get a lot of advice. You get a lot
• 17:16
  S2: of people saying, don't do this, don't do that. And
• 17:17
  S2: sometimes that advice can be crippling. You wouldn't get out
• 17:20
  S2: of bed in the morning. You'd pull the doona over
• 17:22
  S2: because everyone says, do this, do that. And what I
• 17:24
  S2: see is, uh, Anthony certainly backing his judgment. And so
• 17:29
  S2: I think he is stepping up in the job. And
• 17:31
  S2: I think there'd be conservatives who would say that, too. Yeah.
• 17:34
  S2: Having said that, you went back to that earlier point. Yeah,
• 17:38
  S2: there's no question that I've always supported the American Alliance.
• 17:43
  S2: And indeed I supported boat turn backs, and not everyone
• 17:46
  S2: in the party has. But hey, I might not have
• 17:49
  S2: the job, but it would seem that some of the
• 17:51
  S2: positions I took ten years ago seemed to be the
• 17:54
  S2: right call. So, you know, that's.
• 17:55
  S1: And hopefully on a future podcast, we're going to get
• 17:58
  S1: you back and talk about some of the sort of
• 18:00
  S1: more controversial economic policies you took to the 2019 election
• 18:03
  S1: and whether or not you're right on those, and you'll
• 18:05
  S1: be proven right one day. But that's, that's a, that's a,
• 18:07
  S1: that's a conversation for another time. We need to talk
• 18:10
  S1: about Kevin because speaking of Anthony Albanese backing in his
• 18:13
  S1: own judgment, Kevin obviously got a dressing down very publicly.
• 18:17
  S4: Where is he? Is he still working for you?
• 18:18
  S6: Yeah.
• 18:22
  S4: You said that.
• 18:23
  S7: Before I took this position, Mr. President.
• 18:25
  S4: I don't like you either, and I probably never will.
• 18:29
  S4: Go ahead.
• 18:31
  S1: There might be many of Kevin's former parliamentary colleagues who
• 18:33
  S1: could relate to that sentiment. Rudd, I think, recovered pretty well. Paul,
• 18:38
  S1: you know that from your extended research that Rudd actually
• 18:42
  S1: did a lot behind the scenes to make this meeting
• 18:44
  S1: happen and to make the critical minerals deal happen, isn't
• 18:47
  S1: that right?
• 18:48
  S3: Yeah, I think there's that is absolutely right. There's a
• 18:50
  S3: there's a kind of paradox with Rudd and his work
• 18:54
  S3: in the US. There's a school of thought, and I
• 18:56
  S3: think there's some truth to it that he struggles with
• 18:58
  S3: access in parts of the white House. There are some
• 19:00
  S3: people around Trump who are not fans of Rudd, and
• 19:03
  S3: that does limit his access in some regards, where a
• 19:06
  S3: person like Joe Hockey or Arthur Sinodinos would not have struggled.
• 19:09
  S3: But in other regards, Rudd works the Congress incredibly hard.
• 19:13
  S3: He works Trump's cabinet incredibly hard. He's got good relationships
• 19:16
  S3: with Scott Bessent, with Jamieson Greer and with Howard Lutnick,
• 19:20
  S3: and he's also got fantastic contacts inside the State Department
• 19:24
  S3: with Marco Rubio and inside the Pentagon to this critical
• 19:27
  S3: minerals deal was faltering for months. In the early part
• 19:30
  S3: of this year, we put it on the table to
• 19:32
  S3: the Americans when Trump threatened tariffs. It fell over. Rudd
• 19:36
  S3: didn't stop working. He's been bringing miners and the heads
• 19:39
  S3: of BHP and Rio into the white House to meet
• 19:42
  S3: with Trump on some occasions, and he's just worked with,
• 19:45
  S3: from all reports, incredible energy. Night and day, to convince
• 19:48
  S3: the Americans that we are the pathway through their issue
• 19:52
  S3: to their dispute with China. So I think he deserves
• 19:54
  S3: great credit. Tony Abbott gave him credit this week. Various
• 19:58
  S3: others did who you wouldn't consider typical allies of Rudd.
• 20:00
  S3: And I think Susan Lee's overreach calling for him to
• 20:03
  S3: be or effectively calling for him to be sacked also
• 20:05
  S3: really helped Albanese because even though there was that very
• 20:08
  S3: awkward moment with Trump that did cast doubt on Rudd's role,
• 20:11
  S3: the overreach meant that the criticism wasn't taken seriously.
• 20:15
  S1: Bill, do you have anything to add to that?
• 20:17
  S2: No, I think Kevin did well. He I agree with
• 20:20
  S2: a lot of Paul's analysis. Um, you know, was it
• 20:23
  S2: a bit gratuitous of the PM? Sorry, of the president
• 20:26
  S2: to sledge him, I don't know. You know, part of
• 20:28
  S2: me as an Australian doesn't want to see an Australian
• 20:31
  S2: dressed down by someone else. I don't care what party
• 20:33
  S2: or what you think of the Aussie. You know you
• 20:35
  S2: want to stand up for the Australian. But listen, I
• 20:38
  S2: thought if this was Anthony's big success, I think it
• 20:43
  S2: was certainly some of it's due to Kevin and I
• 20:46
  S2: think he deserves some credit for that. Love him or
• 20:48
  S2: hate him, you can't take away, I think, from Paul's.
• 20:51
  S3: Should he be extended his term. It's up next year.
• 20:54
  S2: It's not up to me.
• 20:55
  S1: Do you think I mean, obviously you ousted him or
• 20:57
  S1: you were instrumental in ousting him from the prime ministership.
• 21:01
  S1: If we don't want to rake over the past. But
• 21:03
  S1: it is on the public record.
• 21:05
  S2: What is it about? If we don't want to rake
• 21:07
  S2: over the past, you then start raking over the past.
• 21:09
  S2: I'm just trying to work out the self-awareness.
• 21:11
  S1: Quotient in these sort of nasty sort of, um, you know, um, skeletons.
• 21:15
  S2: Our listeners, we're not torturing you to bring it up.
• 21:17
  S2: But anyway, we're not, like, tickling you with a feather
• 21:20
  S2: and making you just go there.
• 21:21
  S3: I was secretly hoping she brought it up.
• 21:23
  S2: What's been happening is that Kevin Rudd was a very
• 21:25
  S2: good prime minister, and we've done some remarkable things since
• 21:28
  S2: defeating John Howard. But I think you'd have to live
• 21:30
  S2: on the moon to think that this government wasn't off
• 21:33
  S2: track seriously, in the last few months. Certainly, I did
• 21:37
  S2: speak to the then deputy Prime minister, now our Prime minister,
• 21:41
  S2: and say that she should think about this. When did
• 21:43
  S2: you first do that? On Wednesday. And so what has
• 21:47
  S2: happened with this matter is that she gave it a
• 21:50
  S2: great deal of serious reflection. It's a serious issue.
• 21:54
  S1: There is a point to my question or to me
• 21:56
  S1: bringing it up. You knew what his weaknesses were as
• 21:58
  S1: a leader and a prime minister, very obviously. Do you think, actually,
• 22:01
  S1: his idiosyncrasies and his talents are very well suited to
• 22:05
  S1: this kind of role, which is more wonky, which is
• 22:07
  S1: kind of putting people together behind the scenes and quietly working,
• 22:10
  S1: you know, Congress or quietly working cabinet or whatever.
• 22:13
  S2: Oh, I think he's suited to this role. Yeah. I've
• 22:15
  S2: watched some of the, you know, more right wing people
• 22:20
  S2: clutch their pearls and hyperventilate over Kevin, and Kevin's not
• 22:23
  S2: some sort of Mar a Lago drinking buddy of the president. Therefore,
• 22:28
  S2: you know, he doesn't play a round of golf like
• 22:30
  S2: Greg Norman. Is he the right guy to have there?
• 22:33
  S2: But I think Kevin's proved that he's more than stood
• 22:37
  S2: up as the ambassador to the US.
• 22:38
  S1: Kevin's doing it Kevin's way.
• 22:40
  S3: Bill, he's here to help.
• 22:42
  S1: Exactly. He always has been. Bill, you've been an opposition leader, obviously.
• 22:46
  S1: Do you feel for Susan Lee at the present moment
• 22:48
  S1: because Albanese is riding so high? I mean, he's going
• 22:51
  S1: to come back from this trip completely triumphant. You know,
• 22:53
  S1: he's polling position couldn't be better. She tried to land
• 22:56
  S1: a punch on the prime minister over the Rudd thing.
• 22:59
  S1: It really didn't work. And then she had to back
• 23:02
  S1: off it. If you were in opposition right now, if
• 23:05
  S1: you were Sussan Ley right now, what would you be
• 23:08
  S1: focusing on, given that Albanese is in such a strong position?
• 23:11
  S2: Go domestic. Don't play in the foreign affairs patch. You know,
• 23:16
  S2: sometimes an opposition leader will feel the need to say something,
• 23:18
  S2: to say anything. But you don't have to be out
• 23:21
  S2: there in the media every day and never fight on
• 23:24
  S2: your opponent's ground when your opponent's doing well on that ground? Yeah.
• 23:29
  S2: So if I was her. You just got to look
• 23:32
  S2: like she's batting for Team Australia. Yeah. And, um, then
• 23:35
  S2: get back to domestic issues or an issue, which she
• 23:37
  S2: thinks she's on better ground. But anyway, as you always know,
• 23:42
  S2: being opposition leader, everyone can do your job better than you.
• 23:45
  S2: And they will frequently tell you that. But don't fight
• 23:48
  S2: on your opponents ground when your opponents sort of kicking
• 23:51
  S2: with the breeze and doing really well.
• 23:53
  S1: Okay, so what ground should she fight on then?
• 23:57
  S2: Oh.
• 23:58
  S1: Give her a few tips. Come on.
• 24:00
  S2: Well, the first thing you've got to do is. Deal
• 24:04
  S2: with your own. Deal with the reasons why your own
• 24:06
  S2: party lost. See, if you don't do a bit of
• 24:09
  S2: a mea culpa and you don't deal with issues of substance,
• 24:13
  S2: that's why. Should anyone think you've learnt anything? See if
• 24:18
  S2: you don't recognise that you had policies which are the
• 24:21
  S2: reason why you lost, then the electorate might reasonably conclude
• 24:25
  S2: you haven't worked it out and you don't respect their verdict.
• 24:27
  S2: And this was a pretty big verdict. So I don't know.
• 24:31
  S2: They've got themselves you know, they're more lost than Burke
• 24:35
  S2: and Wills on climate change. But I don't think it's
• 24:37
  S2: just that I think you've got to deal with your
• 24:41
  S2: own baggage. And like in 2013, 2014, we had three
• 24:46
  S2: areas of baggage. We were not united. We had a
• 24:50
  S2: problem with the boats. Um, we had a problem with
• 24:53
  S2: the carbon tax. So I made clear we wouldn't be
• 24:57
  S2: reintroducing a carbon tax. I talked to the party conference,
• 25:02
  S2: a view which said we would turn back boats and
• 25:06
  S2: we stopped talking about ourselves. So to some extent, before
• 25:10
  S2: you can engage the electorate, you've got to demonstrate your
• 25:13
  S2: teams united and deal with a couple of the issues.
• 25:16
  S2: You know, the libs have still got this soft underbelly
• 25:19
  S2: about workplace relations and that working from home policy was, Wow.
• 25:24
  S2: That was, uh, you know, that was, uh.
• 25:26
  S1: It.
• 25:27
  S2: Was it was Titanic of policies.
• 25:29
  S1: It was as though they hadn't spoken to a working
• 25:32
  S1: parent anywhere around the country in sort of the last year.
• 25:35
  S1: It was just like they were listening.
• 25:36
  S2: To the Restaurant and Caterers Association in the CBD. Who
• 25:39
  S2: wants people in for lunch and property developers who have,
• 25:44
  S2: you know, buildings in the city which were not as
• 25:47
  S2: full as they used to be, but that was a
• 25:49
  S2: cost of living issue for families. If you didn't need
• 25:51
  S2: to go into work five days a week, you were
• 25:53
  S2: not paying the tolls. You're not paying the petrol, you're
• 25:56
  S2: not paying the childcare. You know.
• 25:58
  S1: How.
• 25:58
  S3: Did you fix the because one of her biggest problems,
• 26:01
  S3: Susan Lee, is fixing the internal issues. And it looks
• 26:04
  S3: with so many of these bus stops she's having with
• 26:06
  S3: Hasty and Price and others. Yeah, there's no communication going
• 26:09
  S3: on in the party. The disparate groups aren't even talking
• 26:11
  S3: to one another. I mean, your chief rival in 20 1314,
• 26:14
  S3: when large part was the now prime minister, how did
• 26:16
  S3: you deal with the internal problems then? How did you
• 26:19
  S3: soothe that all? What are the lessons?
• 26:22
  S2: Well, one of the things I did when I was, uh,
• 26:25
  S2: leader is I made sure that all the different views
• 26:28
  S2: were sitting at the shadow cabinet table. You've got to
• 26:31
  S2: bring people in. You've also got to try and get
• 26:35
  S2: agreement on what went wrong. You don't have to like
• 26:36
  S2: each other, but you've got to an agreement on what
• 26:38
  S2: went wrong. And the borders issue had bedevilled Labour, and
• 26:42
  S2: we really did put that issue to bed in that
• 26:44
  S2: first term. And it wasn't easy. A lot of people
• 26:46
  S2: were upset. Uh, so I'm not saying if I was.
• 26:50
  S2: The coalition have to junk everything you believe in, but
• 26:53
  S2: I think they've got to deal with their here's a
• 26:56
  S2: they've got to pick out a couple of issues out
• 26:58
  S2: of the coalition too hard basket and deal with it.
• 27:01
  S2: And again, you know, there might be coalition supporters, diehards
• 27:06
  S2: listening to this podcast who say, well, Bill would say
• 27:08
  S2: what he's about to say, but I will say it anyway. Uh,
• 27:12
  S2: they've got to do something about their women issue. And
• 27:15
  S2: by that I mean pre-selections like why the liberals are
• 27:20
  S2: turning themselves inside out over affirmative action. Like these people
• 27:24
  S2: are really eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 20th century.
• 27:28
  S2: I know.
• 27:29
  S1: I mean, I've written so much on that, and I
• 27:31
  S1: find it confounding because it's just. It's just pragmatic at
• 27:34
  S1: this point. It's like we know it works. Yeah, it's
• 27:37
  S1: low hanging fruit. We know it works. It'll get you
• 27:38
  S1: where you need to go. Why wouldn't you press the button?
• 27:41
  S1: We have run out of time. And, Bill, we have
• 27:43
  S1: to release you to go back to being a fusty
• 27:45
  S1: academic over at the University of Canberra.
• 27:48
  S2: My brain is already bigger.
• 27:49
  S3: Are they making you, professor?
• 27:50
  S1: You know, smoking a pipe and kind of. Have you
• 27:52
  S1: got one of those jackets with the leather patches on the.
• 27:54
  S2: Oh, I'll tell you what's alarming. Paul has got a
• 27:58
  S2: jacket which would fit him right in the school of
• 28:00
  S2: journalism or, you know, government. Uh, we've got to make
• 28:04
  S2: him an adjunct professor.
• 28:05
  S1: You should, Professor Paul.
• 28:08
  S2: It's very academic.
• 28:09
  S3: Not be valuable.
• 28:11
  S1: All right. We've made too many personal comments on people's appearance.
• 28:14
  S1: This this podcast. We've got to stop.
• 28:15
  S2: I've only been complimentary.
• 28:17
  S1: Yeah, mostly. Um, bill, it's been such a pleasure to
• 28:21
  S1: have you. It was really fun. Um, we hope we
• 28:23
  S1: can get you back again. And thanks for. Thanks for
• 28:25
  S1: coming in.
• 28:26
  S2: Thanks for asking my opinion. It's very flattering.
• 28:28
  S1: And thanks to you, too, Paul.
• 28:29
  S3: Professor Paul. Hope that.
• 28:32
  S2: Professor Paul. All right.
• 28:33
  S3: Thanks, guys.
• 28:34
  S2: Cheers.
• 28:37
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Carr Katzel, with technical
• 28:41
  S1: assistance from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer
• 28:45
  S1: is Tammy Mills. With special thanks to Tom McKendrick and
• 28:48
  S1: Lisa Muxworthy. To listen to our episodes as soon as
• 28:51
  S1: they drop, follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere
• 28:55
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• 28:58
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• 29:01
  S1: Age and The Sydney Morning Herald website. To support our journalism,
• 29:05
  S1: subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe.
• 29:11
  S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.