Latest / Finding New Waters / PIVOTPoint WNC Founder Matt Nannis | Shame, Identity, and Recovery Through the Outdoors

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PIVOTPoint WNC Founder Matt Nannis | Shame, Identity, and Recovery Through the Outdoors · Finding New Waters

• 0:00
  Discipline is important. Like make your bed every
• 0:03
  morning, brush your teeth like at least twice a day.
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  Like these little things like you're talking about, they, they
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  matter. They matter in the self talk.
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  I'm aware of they matter in the self talk that I don't even know
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  that I'm I'm I'm dishing out to myself and that impacts how I
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  show up to anybody else throughout the course of my day.
• 0:23
  All right. Welcome back to another episode
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  of Finding New Waters. My name is Bea Reeves.
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  I am the Director of Business Development here at New Waters
• 0:31
  Recovery in Raleigh. Sitting here with our CEO,
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  Justin McClendon. Special guest today up in
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  Asheville is Matt Nannis, who is the Founder and Executive
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  Director of Pivot Point WNC. Welcome.
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  To NC, thanks for having. Me right.
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  Thank you. Great to see you man.
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  And thank you for being here. And it's been, I haven't seen
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  you in real life in a while, so I'm glad you're on here.
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  Yeah, appreciate, appreciate the invitation.
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  It has been a minute. Yeah, man, you're one of the
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  first people I met working in the field about six years ago
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  when I was up working for real recovery up there with George
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  Matfeld. And and we've talked about this
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  before. I think I I possibly maybe
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  misremembering this. Within about a year, year and a
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  half later we were at a conference together and paddle
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  boarded together at how? Fun.
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  I think we would have been, yeah, we would have been in
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  Hendersonville at Seuss. Seuss was doing their Expanding
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  Recovery for Young People conference.
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  That was the first conference I ever attended.
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  Yeah. Cool.
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  Yeah. They were kind enough to, they
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  were kind enough to let me on have a little table trying to
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  get the word out about what I was doing.
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  The previous year we did mountain biking and then that
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  year we we went a little more low key, tried to get more folks
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  out onto the water. Yeah, that was a fun day.
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  Well, what you said, you know what, What?
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  What? Tell us, You know, we want to
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  hear about you. And the purpose of this is to,
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  you know, nobody wants to hear about us anymore.
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  We want to hear about you. What?
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  Give us a little taste of how you got to working in this
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  field. And then, you know, tell us
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  about Pivot Point. I got to, it's funny, like I, I
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  still have a healthy dose of imposter syndrome and, and other
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  right? Like I relate.
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  I worry of myself as being an outsider, which I think is an
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  ego thing that I still get to work on.
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  But I, I started pivot point because when I made it into a
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  sober home, when I moved into Asheville in 2013, I, man, I
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  hated it. I don't know if I can cuss on
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  this interview, so I won't until I get the go ahead.
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  But like I, I hated it. I had so much guilt and shame
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  attached, interestingly enough, to living in a halfway house.
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  I was over it in treatment. I did treatment for 90 days and
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  kind of learned that system and learned how to navigate it and
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  maybe was just too focused on the end date to think about my
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  actual situation. A man when I got to Asheville.
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  Great program, wonderful people. Some challenging roommates here
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  and there, but such as life in a halfway house, Man, I had so
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  much internal shame attached to getting in and out of that
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  minivan. All of it, every, every element
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  of it was tough. Except on Sundays when when
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  their program took us hiking. And the way I've I've reflected
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  on it, I'm not sure just how crisp, crystal clear and crisp
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  it was in the moment. But when I reflect on it, that
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  Sunday hike was the only time that I didn't feel like failure.
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  Shameful, degenerate. Every harsh self criticism that
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  I would I I'm surprised I wasn't assigning to any of my halfway
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  house roommates because I was just that fragile and raw.
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  But I would turn it internally except for when I was hiking.
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  Stayed in that program for six months.
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  Had the opportunity because of some friendships and
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  relationships that were created while I was there.
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  That continued after I completed that program.
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  I got the opportunity to lead those hikes on Sundays
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  afterwards. And you know, we can get
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  granular with it if you want, but there was an awareness, not
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  knowing about adventure therapy, not knowing about wilderness
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  therapy fairly knowing that experiential Ed existed.
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  Maybe I knew Outward Bound was a thing, but I was blown away in
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  the the way in which those clients were connecting with one
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  another and with me, right. And then they started asking
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  questions that I felt significantly unqualified to
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  answer, you know, to the point where I was like, don't you have
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  a case manager? What do you this is not we're
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  hiking. Like, what do you pump the
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  brakes? But they kept asking these
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  questions and felt more comfortable seemingly in that
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  setting than in a formalized one-on-one with the door closed
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  and the sound machine going. So I started, instead of it
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  being a gig, I started engaging in these questions and genuinely
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  getting to know these folks. I, I have this thing where I
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  still do it today where like, I'm, well, if I'm in this
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  environment, I wear this hat. I'm in in this environment, I
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  wear this hat, which is I think among many things, also like a
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  survival technique and coping mechanism that I held onto from
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  when I was an active addiction where I had to be a chameleon so
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  that I could relate to the people in my immediate
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  surroundings. Because that was how I helped
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  myself feel safe. And one of my mentors, who's now
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  a board member and a friend was like, why don't you just wear
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  the the mat hat and just be you? It'll be less exhausting and you
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  might actually learn a thing or two about yourself in addition
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  to how you show up for other people.
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  And among many suggestions and bits of feedback along the way,
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  that was, that was one of the, that was one of the pivot points
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  for me in deciding how I would show up with the folks I got to
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  hike with. And it's, and it's evolved a lot
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  since then. So it's, yeah, a lot of luck, a
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  lot of synchronicity, a lot of really interesting timing.
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  And I'm stubborn as I'll get out.
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  So I think that's a big element too.
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  Thank you. I few a few things.
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  One, I think you're the first person ever, especially on the
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  podcast, who has not referred to that minivan as the druggie
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  buggy. Where's your important be?
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  Where's your important? We got to frame this in a
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  productive. Way right here.
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  Yeah. And then the other thing is you
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  said, you mentioned, you mentioned that you out were
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  bound. You'd heard of that.
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  But otherwise experiential therapy.
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  And we were talking at the very beginning about how we first
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  time, not the first time we met, but we were we paddle boarded
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  together at Canoga. And I just put these two things
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  together when I was 16, I went on outer bound in Maine.
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  And we did, I did a it was a sailing, 3 weeks of sailing on
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  the Penobscot Bay. I think that's all right.
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  And anyway, there was not a breath of wind for three weeks.
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  We rode A, rode A sailboat for three weeks and when we get on
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  this island called Hurricane Island where it's based, and we
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  did this ropes course thing. And then one of the exercises we
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  did was we had to figure out if we were two docks that were
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  probably 30 feet apart and figure out how to, we had a
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  couple ropes, figure out how to get from 1 dock to the other,
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  obviously without walking around.
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  And so we built this contraption kind of rope bridge.
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  And I was probably, you know, it's one of the more athletic
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  people on the, on the trip. And I was the only person who
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  couldn't get across that thing. And I, and as I was doing, I
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  fell in the water and I remember making a decision.
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  You can whine and be rescued here.
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  You can get up and do this again.
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  And I did it again and I got through it and I, and I hope I
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  never forget that. And The thing is, when we did
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  that paddle board thing, I was new in the field.
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  I've been working in this field for just over a year, first
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  conference I'd ever been to. And I'm paddle boarding with a
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  bunch of people. You know, some of them are like
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  older women and I'm the only one who fell off the paddle board in
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  that cold lake. But I did.
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  But I thought about that Outward Bound thing on the spot and got
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  back up and just instead of trying to just say, all right,
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  I'm done. I'm just going to, you know,
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  like boogie board this thing back to the dock.
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  I thought about that Outward Bound experience and just got
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  back up and tried it again. And I am glad this things came
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  up today. And because that those
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  experimental experiential things are just so valuable.
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  You know, it's one thing to sit in a group, which is very
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  important, of course, the clinical group, absolutely.
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  And go and go to meetings and meet with doctors and nurses and
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  all that stuff. It's all so important.
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  But having that real life experience, especially when we
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  fall and need to get back up. So glad that came up.
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  Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, that is the, the, the tagline, that's
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  the bumper sticker of, of AEE, which they will then say is not,
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  it's not I'm, I'm not a representative of a, but we
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  learned by doing, right. Like I think at the time that I
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  was meeting with you and probably shortly after even that
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  paddle boarding, there was a, there was a stage where we were
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  trying to provide essentially an experiential IOP because I was
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  so jazzed about what I was seeing happening on the trail
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  and it was tough. I, you know, like I'm, I'm
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  trying to partner with programs that are doing great work and
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  they're reputable and also their businesses that have to pay
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  staff so that they can live comfortably, right?
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  Like it's a business and I, I got caught up in yeah, but it's
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  a business of helping people. And I, I stopped focusing on the
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  business part and I couldn't really figure out a way to take
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  inject what I was doing and wanted to do into that world.
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  So we were trying to sell this like experiential IOP.
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  And though, and I tell that because the, the phrase failure
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  to launch came up a bunch. I hate that phrase.
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  I, I would, I, I understand it. I understand the sentimentality
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  and the, the love from those assigning it to the person that
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  we're talking about. I, I understand all of that and
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  appreciate all of that. I also think it's failure to
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  meet expectations of other people is what I think is
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  failure to launch it. I think that's fair.
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  And I think failure is like the reframes that we focus on,
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  whether it's that's a minivan, not druggy, buggy, or things
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  that feel patronizing. Even when people say it to me
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  today, like this isn't happening to you, it's happening for you.
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  I can't stand that, right? But if I can pause and self
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  reflect, there's a lot of truth to it.
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  And if I choose, if I make the choice to embrace that
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  perspective, I have a lot more options than the, you know,
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  world against me or, you know, this, this hierarchical, that's
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  probably a word power struggle that I create in my brain when
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  I'm in a sober living home where all of us are just lucky to be
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  there and not dead, you know, so I think I want to scrape my
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  knees. I want to bang my elbow in the
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  side. I hit my, I have a like a
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  plastic watch because I slam it into the door frame every other
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  time I walk into a room, right? Like so at first it was like,
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  no, I just be careful and not damage a watch that I really had
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  to buy for status purposes. And finally I learned, no,
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  that's not me. I need to get a, a rubber watch
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  that will bounce off of the door frame because that's how I walk
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  through the world, right? So it's a re embracing of how I
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  actually show up as opposed to like a hyper criticism of
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  wanting to shift the way that I I observed myself and my
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  actions. I think it's great.
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  I honestly didn't remember that you fell off, but I think it's
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  great that you fell off and got back on.
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  You know, what is it, Zoolander? What do we do?
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  We get back on the horse. Yeah.
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  Well, go ahead. Well, I was just wondering, so
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  listening to you, what I've the the visual that I have in mind
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  is like walking talks in the woods.
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  But I don't want to, you know, maybe you can do a better job
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  explaining like what exactly are you guys doing?
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  What's happening out there? What kind of activities are you
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  guys engaging in? Sure.
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  I I mean, I think, I think it, I think it begins with with
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  something akin to walk and talk. I think we are, I will say that
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  at this stage like just the frame it currently we are
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  exclusively working with teenagers in Buncombe County and
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  the surrounding areas here in Western North Carolina.
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  So we have been working with the Department of Juvenile Justice.
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  I think we're in our 6th consecutive year providing
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  extended programming on Saturdays like it's a 10 week
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  cohort. I'll use the word outpatient,
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  though we are not clinical because I don't know how else to
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  describe it, but we're A10 week outpatient program and we have
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  an extended program on Saturdays that meets 10 Saturdays in a
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  row, about 6 hours. We're picking you up at a
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  central location. We're going hiking, paddle
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  boarding, rock climbing, white water rafting, mountain biking,
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  all depending on the, on the weather, indoor climbing or you
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  know, we just teamed up with a few new outdoor guides and over
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  the course of, I mean it, it starts before we hit the trail.
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  Like we, we model consistency. We're working with teenagers who
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  are just a year or two past that stage in development where they
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  are looking at adults outside of their immediate family for
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  mentorship consciously, subconsciously or otherwise.
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  So we say we're going to meet at 11:00, we're there at 10:45
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  every Saturday morning, right? Modeling that consistency, that
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  reliability, that predictability, sometimes being
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  the only adults in the room or at the trailhead who are doing
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  so through no fault of anybody, just the way life plays out for
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  folks. And we're going and engaging in
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  these activities, the ones that I mentioned and we're modeling
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  curiosity. There's group facilitation over
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  the course of a hike. We'll do anywhere from three,
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  sometimes 5 formalized, planned in advance interventions, group
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  discussions, experiential ad we just recently posted there was
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  a, an outing with an after school program where they did
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  the marshmallow and and raw spaghetti towers, right.
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  So we're doing an activity that requires teamwork, healthy
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  communication, focus on a, on an agreed upon outcome and, and
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  falling off the paddle board and, and a decent amount of
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  failure. So we're modeling and presenting
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  activities that are designed to identify growth areas, stimulate
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  resilience, identify existing resilience is huge of what with,
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  with what we're doing like these, these kids, a lot of the
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  kids we work with are, I like to say they're playing 5 cards
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  stud, but they were only dealt 3 cards.
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  So, so much of this is highlighting existing strengths
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  and challenges in a supportive way that can incorporate healthy
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  self reflection, right? And then we, we kind of zoom out
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  like healthy relationship to self expanding into healthy
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  relationship to peers into healthy relationship at school
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  and community at large. And because it's a day program
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  and you're not on a, on a, on a sailboat where there might have
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  been three different buckets marked for three different
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  things. This is about implementability,
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  applicability. So I think another another
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  vantage point of the strength of our delivery model and we're not
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  unique in this, but it's of supreme importance is if I have
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  to drive an hour and a half to a trailhead and then hike 5 miles
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  to the top of a mountain to gain some self regulation, that's a
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  good tap in and access point to that experience.
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  But it's the least practical thing ever, right?
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  So this is about how can you use this when you get home from a
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  shitty day at school and you can't wait to play Xbox, but
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  your younger brother's on Xbox and they're throwing a tantrum
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  and they won't let you play. Or you go to pick up, you know,
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  take out. And when you get back to your
• 16:40
  car, there's a parking ticket. And then you realize you got the
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  wrong order. That's when we need to tap into
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  self regulation and taking a breath and not being as
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  reactive, but rather responsive. So our goal is to model these
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  experiences utilizing nature, utilizing, you know, dynamic
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  activities as an access point to the experience of I'm
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  dysregulated. That's OK, here's how I can re
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  regulate myself or Co regulate with with a peer because that
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  that is that's the point. Like I need, I need, I hope I
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  don't need. I hope these skills can be
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  utilized at, you know, the bus stop at home at a sporting
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  event, you know, like playing with a rival high school in a
• 17:30
  heated, escalated conversation with parents or guardians.
• 17:33
  Like that's when this stuff needs to come up.
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  And I think, you know, be you touched on this earlier.
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  Like, of course, traditional mental health interventions and
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  clinical support is essential for anyone navigating Keeling.
• 17:47
  There are also a lot of people who generationally are averse to
• 17:50
  that, right? Or, or they've been pathologized
• 17:54
  since they're three years old and they don't want making spot
• 17:57
  from a mile away that the mountain bike is just another
• 17:59
  gimmick to do more therapy, right?
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  So we don't, we don't go there. We, we utilize decades of
• 18:07
  clinical experience and training and education, but we deliver it
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  in a peer, a peer delivery model, a casual, intentional,
• 18:19
  but informal group discussion. And, and you know, I founded it
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  and I'm bored out of my mind sitting on a folding chair in a
• 18:28
  circle. So I wanted to go hiking.
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  So like some of it's as simple as that.
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  Does that help paint a better picture?
• 18:35
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 18:36
  I'm now I'm just thinking, how do these, how do the kids end up
• 18:40
  in your care? Yeah, so, so, so we do this
• 18:45
  extended program on Saturdays is is in collaboration with local
• 18:49
  Department of Juvenile Justice and a group called the Juvenile
• 18:53
  Crime Prevention Council, which is as county departments,
• 18:58
  departments and state and federal and court counselors
• 19:02
  will refer students that are kind of directed towards them by
• 19:07
  schools who are having challenges.
• 19:09
  Maybe there's behavior problems. Usually there's a whole lot of
• 19:12
  other variables that are a factor.
• 19:15
  We also provide an after school model that's slightly shorter
• 19:20
  simply because it's after school.
• 19:22
  So we don't have the entire day or Saturday, which is the same
• 19:26
  curriculum and same structure, but usually closer to, you know,
• 19:30
  3 1/2 or 4 hours. And we present that in sort of a
• 19:32
  preventative leadership opportunity.
• 19:35
  Those referrals can come from court counselors, can come from
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  school staff, coaches, school counselors.
• 19:44
  You can self refer. All of this is non coercive,
• 19:47
  right? So you can self refer.
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  We just have a couple of documents we have to sign.
• 19:50
  Obviously there's plenty of waivers and releases because
• 19:53
  we're we're supporting adolescents, but we have
• 19:56
  students bringing their good friends who are, you know,
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  navigating similar challenges within one of the schools we
• 20:02
  partner with, you know, they're bringing them to their school
• 20:04
  counselor and being like, hey, can can Johnny do the next
• 20:07
  cohort with me? I really think like we'd want to
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  do this and go through this experience together.
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  We have parents who speak to one another in whatever rooms
• 20:19
  parents are speaking to one another.
• 20:21
  And then we'll get, you know, people reach out through the
• 20:23
  website directly. School resource officers are one
• 20:28
  of the sources simply because I mean, we intentionally
• 20:32
  communicate with them about our offerings, but also having
• 20:35
  worked with DJJ for as long as we have, school resource
• 20:41
  officers are are a tremendous part of that student support.
• 20:44
  And in Buncombe County, these are these are individuals who
• 20:48
  like for the most part, as far as I know, everyone I've met
• 20:51
  that's far went out of their way to seek to become a school
• 20:54
  resource officer. These are not people who, you
• 20:57
  know, didn't pass that test. So they're falling back on
• 21:00
  school resource officer. These are these are community
• 21:02
  members who want to support children in the best way they
• 21:05
  know how. And they're just powerful allies
• 21:08
  and advocates not only for the student body and the community
• 21:12
  at large, but also, you know, any number of the diversion
• 21:15
  programs that at least our county has that are, that are
• 21:18
  really progressive and effective in showing up for, for the
• 21:22
  youth. So it's, it's a little bit of
• 21:26
  everything. We have a, a guy whose role is
• 21:29
  community liaison, who is really for our organization, the case
• 21:33
  manager for all these different referral sources.
• 21:35
  And he has. He's got a busy, he's got a busy
• 21:39
  job. I bet sounds like it.
• 21:42
  Where did you grow up, Matt? I'm from outside of Boston, MA.
• 21:47
  I grew up in a town called Framingham, which at the time
• 21:52
  was I think the biggest town in the country.
• 21:54
  And years later was was they voted to turn it into a city
• 21:59
  because I think people were wanted some better trash pickup
• 22:02
  systems. I don't know.
• 22:04
  Yeah, Boston Northeast. And so 2 questions, 1 is were
• 22:08
  you Al Dorsey is a kid? And then also, you know, I guess
• 22:12
  the follow up question is how did you end up in Asheville?
• 22:16
  Sure, I I was outdoor as a kid I was I liked being outside.
• 22:22
  I was, you know, I I grew up in a time 40.
• 22:25
  What am I 45 S 45 SI grew up in a time where, you know, you
• 22:30
  hopped on your bike and you didn't come back until the sun
• 22:32
  came down kind of a thing. And we even had a little
• 22:34
  flexibility then wasn't really rock climbing or or white water
• 22:42
  rapping for a while. I think in in before I came down
• 22:47
  to to Asheville by way of a program in Florida.
• 22:54
  There were a lot I I just gravitated towards a bunch of
• 22:57
  friends who loved rock climbing was really big.
• 23:00
  You know, you drive a couple hours in in New England and
• 23:02
  you're on some pretty good, some pretty good rock.
• 23:05
  And it started out as like, you know, a challenging activity
• 23:09
  that I really enjoyed and found a couple of climbing gyms.
• 23:12
  And then what it ended up evolving or maybe devolving into
• 23:15
  was going away for the camping trip for the weekend.
• 23:19
  And while they went rock climbing, I stayed back because,
• 23:23
  you know, some of my friends who who really liked to do that also
• 23:28
  really like to party. So what started as like, yeah,
• 23:33
  let's all the go do this and then we'll, you know, we'll
• 23:36
  barbecue and cook out and have a drink or this and that and the
• 23:38
  other. Before I got to a stage where I
• 23:42
  wasn't even leaving my apartment, I was going on these
• 23:46
  trips and then just coming up with a reason that I don't think
• 23:50
  anyone believed to, to kind of hang back.
• 23:52
  And then they get back from, you know, climbing all day and be
• 23:55
  like, where the, where the hell is all the beer and everything
• 23:59
  else? You know, so they kind of
• 24:02
  stopped inviting me. And I, you know, I tour around
• 24:04
  on my bike. I was never really into, I don't
• 24:06
  think I was ever really an adrenaline junkie.
• 24:09
  Like there's a, there's a perception, I think of rock
• 24:11
  climbing from some people that it is that kind of a rush.
• 24:14
  And I, I know that there's a dopamine hit there and it's one
• 24:19
  of the safest activities you can do.
• 24:21
  And I think I'm more leaned into that than anything else.
• 24:24
  There's like triple redundancies on everything that you're doing.
• 24:27
  I'd say mountain biking is way more dangerous.
• 24:31
  And then I came here because, you know, the short of it is in,
• 24:37
  in, in 2013, in in June of 2013, I think the 8th and the 9th of
• 24:42
  June was supposed to be not supposed to be.
• 24:46
  It was there was a wedding in upstate New York that I was
• 24:48
  invited to. We were all in a caravan up
• 24:50
  there. And what I did not know at the
• 24:53
  time was that, you know, a number of family members and
• 24:56
  friends who loved me a lot more than I loved myself at the time,
• 25:01
  organized a, an intervention and I was, I was given, I was given
• 25:09
  an ultimatum. It seemed, you know, at the
• 25:11
  time, everyone was pretty congratulatory as to the fact
• 25:15
  that I chose treatment as opposed to whatever the
• 25:18
  alternative was going to be. But I, I honestly in the moment
• 25:21
  was starting to detox and withdraw and I couldn't pick up
• 25:24
  my pills until after they left the apartment.
• 25:26
  So I was just like, this is the easiest way to get you the hell
• 25:29
  out of my apartment is to agree. So I went down to Florida for a
• 25:34
  90 day treatment stay and then was trying to get back to
• 25:37
  Boston. And you know, the way it felt
• 25:43
  and there's no hard feelings here, but the way it felt was
• 25:45
  basically the entire city of Boston was like, yeah, I don't,
• 25:48
  I don't know if that's a good idea.
• 25:50
  So ended up here. Cool.
• 25:53
  That's a I'll always love to hear how people get where they
• 25:57
  are. Yeah.
• 25:57
  Is it safe to say that you're grateful for that?
• 25:59
  For Boston telling you not to. Come home, you know, it's it's
• 26:02
  funny I was I was thinking yes. Short answer is, yeah, that's
• 26:06
  that's to say the assumption I was I was reflecting on, I tried
• 26:10
  really hard not to think about these conversations until I have
• 26:14
  them right. And because I think it's just a
• 26:18
  a limiting way to approach the opportunity to have a genuine
• 26:22
  conversation. And and I couldn't help but
• 26:24
  think about, you know, synchronicity and the
• 26:29
  opportunities presented to me right.
• 26:30
  And then I, I the word luck comes up all the time.
• 26:34
  And you know, I think it's a it's a cool concept.
• 26:38
  I think it's easy to interject and swap out grace, the
• 26:43
  universe, karma, God, there's a whole lot of words that fall
• 26:46
  under there. And lately, it wasn't always
• 26:49
  luck, was not always my word choice for it, but goodness, it
• 26:52
  is. It is it's luck.
• 26:54
  I know people, I know people navigating, you know, from what
• 26:58
  I can perceive, nobody knows anyone else's internal
• 27:00
  landscape. But like I know people who have
• 27:03
  navigated are no longer around to navigate and, and, and those
• 27:08
  who you know, continue to navigate recovery from all sorts
• 27:12
  of things, healing and growth from all sorts of things.
• 27:15
  And objectively from my chair, I see how hard they were and I see
• 27:21
  the alignment of their actions with their words and I and I, I
• 27:25
  see the routines and the reps they put in.
• 27:28
  And some of them, you know, I've, I've gone to, I would say
• 27:32
  half of the life celebrations I've been to are people where
• 27:36
  it's like, damn, I, I, their recovery routine and engagement
• 27:41
  with the beacon that I was, I was using, you know, so I don't
• 27:48
  know, I think about this a decent amount of time,
• 27:50
  especially when this is, you know, the focus of the topic.
• 27:53
  Like if I had, if I had a dealer who didn't sleep in, I would
• 28:00
  have probably copped before the intervention.
• 28:03
  I might not have even made it back to my house.
• 28:05
  I was just weak enough and tired enough and cold enough while
• 28:09
  somehow sweating that I didn't know what else to do.
• 28:12
  I would literally get the hell out of my apartment.
• 28:15
  And the only way I could see that happen was to agree to
• 28:18
  whatever that I don't even know if I knew what they were
• 28:20
  selling, But I was like, this is how this ends.
• 28:23
  This ends by me saying, yes, you're right.
• 28:26
  Thank you for holding up this mirror to me.
• 28:29
  You know, get the fuck out, right?
• 28:32
  Like. Yeah, I man, I period.
• 28:34
  I mean, that's the, I feel like we all have a finite number of
• 28:40
  windows of opportunity. Some of us have one.
• 28:45
  I like assume I have one, but it was, but you know, I was talking
• 28:49
  to my about this yesterday. I think if I, if I'd been
• 28:52
  approached, you know, 5 hours before or five hours later than
• 28:57
  I was, I don't think I would have been in that, in the, in
• 29:02
  that moment of clarity to, to say yes to.
• 29:05
  I mean, I had a similar thing, you know, I mean, it was
• 29:07
  basically a, an intimate imminent family intervention
• 29:12
  that was coming my way. And, you know, I was presented
• 29:15
  with, you know, an opportunity. And if it had happened with when
• 29:19
  I had what I needed in my system, there's no way because
• 29:22
  I'm good then, you know, And if it happened when I was, when I
• 29:25
  was maybe in a different stage of the kind of hangover strung
• 29:29
  out phase where I was more combative, no way.
• 29:32
  But I was just sick and tired and sick and tired enough at
• 29:37
  that moment to accept some help. It's, I mean, and I think, I
• 29:41
  think about like, you know, we talk about this work, we, we do
• 29:46
  this extended program on Saturdays.
• 29:48
  We do this like earlier intervention support during the
• 29:52
  week with direct, you know, connection to, to partnering
• 29:55
  schools. And there have been
• 29:56
  conversations with staff about like, look, whatever that adage
• 30:00
  is about, you know, planting the seeds, the trees that we know
• 30:03
  we, we won't enjoy the shade of which I, I'd say enough that I
• 30:06
  should actually know what the expression is, but I don't, we
• 30:09
  are, we're now like tilling the soil for someone else to plant
• 30:13
  the seed, for someone else to sit in that shade.
• 30:15
  Because it is, it is, it's about opportunity.
• 30:18
  Like the, the birth place of the name Pivot Point was around
• 30:21
  that, you know, like some guy was like at a halfway house was
• 30:24
  like, what if I don't go hiking, I'm going to relapse.
• 30:26
  And I was like, buddy, that's the dumbest fucking thing I've
• 30:28
  ever heard in my life. I don't think it works like
• 30:31
  that. But like, you're here, even if
• 30:33
  you don't want to be here. And as a result of that, you
• 30:36
  have 360° of possibility. I can't predict what any of the
• 30:40
  outcomes are going to be, but I know you have a shot in this
• 30:43
  moment. And it just was like you're at a
• 30:46
  pivot point, like here it is. And I think if we can, if we can
• 30:50
  focus on that, you know, you, you learn by doing.
• 30:55
  You get your reps in. And these days they're, they're,
• 30:57
  they're putting fentanyl on everything.
• 30:59
  It's and they choose, for Christ's sake, like you don't
• 31:02
  have like it. And it keeps me, it keeps me
• 31:05
  tethered to gratitude. And I'm a cynical SOB.
• 31:08
  So it's important. Any trick that I can utilize to
• 31:11
  keep me tethered to gratitude is a of like the utmost importance
• 31:14
  to me. And if I, if I focus for me in
• 31:17
  this moment last couple years, if I use the word luck, that
• 31:20
  helps me because I'll weaponize it.
• 31:24
  Like 2 years from now, I'll probably weaponize the word luck
• 31:26
  because that's what my brain does.
• 31:27
  But right now it keeps me tethered to gratitude.
• 31:30
  And in that space, I show up for myself better, I show up for
• 31:34
  everybody else better. I give myself a shot.
• 31:37
  And part of what I get to do is like set up a system with a lot
• 31:41
  of learning opportunities that continue to, to empower staff
• 31:46
  and by extension, these students to have a shot.
• 31:48
  And that's, that's something to hold in reference, you know?
• 31:53
  Yeah, absolutely. Well, and like the guy you're
• 31:55
  talking about who's like, what if I don't go hiking, I'm going
• 31:57
  to relapse. It's maybe, you know, maybe not
• 32:00
  because you didn't go hiking, but the, but so much of this,
• 32:02
  especially early on, is about willingness to do the things we
• 32:05
  don't feel like doing. And that's like, that's like
• 32:07
  that pivot point you're talking about in that decision we make,
• 32:11
  you know, in a decision, you know, they, that other analogy
• 32:14
  that I always get wrong is, you know, 333 frogs are sitting on a
• 32:18
  log. One of them makes a decision to
• 32:21
  jump in. How many are sitting there?
• 32:23
  Three. Because just because we make a
• 32:24
  decision doesn't mean we do anything.
• 32:25
  It's got to be backed up by action.
• 32:27
  And, you know, and, and gratitude itself is an action.
• 32:31
  You know, I can sit here and just think I'm so grateful, but
• 32:35
  I mean, I need to show it and write it and and, you know, it's
• 32:38
  an it's in gratitude is an action.
• 32:41
  And but yeah, that that word willingness, I feel like is tied
• 32:45
  into a lot of what we're talking about now.
• 32:47
  And if I had to if I had to choose one word, I can only have
• 32:50
  one word to to describe recovery, it would be
• 32:54
  willingness. So what how to tell us more
• 33:01
  about like how you know, can you can you have clients who are
• 33:06
  outside Buncombe County? So, yeah, yeah.
• 33:13
  So we have clients, we've had clients in the past come up from
• 33:17
  Transylvania County and we just orchestrate we're we're pivot
• 33:21
  point is a good name for us unknowing at the time because we
• 33:23
  are able to adapt. Like our first kind of
• 33:26
  organizational leveling up was during COVID.
• 33:29
  We responded in a way during Helene that allowed us to
• 33:32
  utilize our skill set and our deliverable model to support
• 33:35
  people even when there was no school and people were just
• 33:38
  gathering it, you know, disaster relief sites and stuff.
• 33:42
  So we've always been adaptable because like there's an office
• 33:47
  and then it's the National Forest, you know, like we, we're
• 33:50
  not as impacted potentially as a lot of other offerings.
• 33:53
  So we've had parents drive their kids up, like meet us halfway
• 33:58
  from, from Mills River or Brevard for programming.
• 34:02
  We, we do provide door to door transportation.
• 34:05
  We, we, we partnered with specific schools like we're
• 34:09
  being really intentional and and methodical with expanding into
• 34:13
  additional schools. So county wide for the Saturday
• 34:16
  program, we have to prioritize Buncombe County students because
• 34:21
  that is one of our primary funding sources as part of our
• 34:23
  agreement with the Juvenile Crowd Prevention Council.
• 34:26
  And to the best of our ability, and we've been successful thus
• 34:29
  far, we can keep one or two spaces.
• 34:35
  You know, we, when we get to 8 students in an extended program
• 34:38
  on Saturday, we're going to let you know, anyone who's
• 34:42
  potentially referring from out of town, like, look, this is,
• 34:45
  this is probably not going to work because the last thing we
• 34:47
  want to do is do two weeks of interventions and then get
• 34:50
  another referral or two and be like, sorry, you know, John and
• 34:53
  you can't come anymore because that's modeling the wrong kind
• 34:56
  of behavior. And as we continue to partner
• 35:01
  with more schools, Owen district in town came out up to us.
• 35:05
  They approached us for, for after school programming.
• 35:08
  We're talking to the YMCA of Western North Carolina, who is
• 35:11
  situated in a number of schools in all of Western North
• 35:14
  Carolina, all 18 counties. So it's, it's not as simple as,
• 35:18
  you know, oh, just come by and drop him off at AC Reynolds High
• 35:21
  School. And if there's room in the van,
• 35:23
  there's room in the van. There's, there's too much
• 35:25
  intentionality. And, and you know, this isn't,
• 35:30
  this isn't just a hike like like as was mentioned earlier, like
• 35:33
  this walk and talk kind of approach like we're, we're
• 35:36
  getting to that thing under the thing under the thing.
• 35:38
  So there needs to be an individualized Service plan
• 35:42
  created. There's a, there's a lot of
• 35:43
  legwork that happened before anyone gets in the van and the
• 35:49
  model is beyond replicable. So it's pretty easy.
• 35:53
  You know, bureaucracy is a little different in every every
• 35:56
  region overall vibe from county to county shifts sometimes from
• 36:02
  high school to high school shifts with within the same
• 36:04
  county, But it it is a 10 week commitment for for each of these
• 36:10
  programs. So if we have a cohort that's
• 36:13
  running 8 strong for the next 10 weeks and someone comes in from,
• 36:17
  you know, McDowell County and we can figure out the logistics,
• 36:21
  which we often can, but not always.
• 36:23
  We've had folks, families from Hickory and I'm like, I can't,
• 36:27
  that's an hour and a half. We could meet halfway, but like
• 36:30
  it was the time of year where you'd have to go down the
• 36:32
  mountain and like 40 is tricky. So it wasn't predictable.
• 36:36
  So there's plenty of barriers we're still working to address.
• 36:41
  And it's a little late for giving you a short answer, but
• 36:45
  I'll, I'll say, I'll say it's, it's always a possibility.
• 36:49
  You know, one of the things that is important to me, at least in
• 36:52
  the last 60 years, it's like you, you always have that
• 36:56
  conversation because you never know what's going to happen as a
• 36:58
  result. Like, we might know someone who
• 37:00
  knows someone who can get them to a halfway point and then
• 37:03
  suddenly, you know, Burke County isn't unavoidable.
• 37:06
  It's just the hop, skip and a jump away.
• 37:09
  Very. Cool.
• 37:12
  I wanted to address one thing before we wrap it up here in
• 37:16
  that we ask everybody to be on the podcast 15 minutes earlier
• 37:20
  in our very explicit instructions.
• 37:24
  And and Matt, he said I'm here 15 minutes early and you know,
• 37:29
  we just finished doing another podcast and you know, we do that
• 37:31
  because we want to make sure everybody's equipment works and
• 37:35
  all that, but also we just that buffer and if we can start
• 37:37
  earlier, we can. But I think the probably the
• 37:40
  real motivation is we know that most people will probably be
• 37:43
  late if we don't ask them to be early.
• 37:46
  But you mentioned, but then you mentioned here on the podcast
• 37:49
  that you incur you, you want people 15 minutes early.
• 37:52
  I mean, that's part of what you're doing, right?
• 37:54
  Is we get these young guys to show respect and not only be on
• 37:58
  time to be early. And I just think that's so
• 38:01
  valuable. And I, I, when I was new in
• 38:05
  recovery, I was probably like 3 months sober.
• 38:08
  And I went to a meeting one day and this old timer guy I got
• 38:11
  there, the meeting was at noon and I was probably, I got there
• 38:14
  at 11:59. And then after the meeting we
• 38:17
  were talking, he said, are you chronically late everywhere you
• 38:19
  go? I said no, but I'm chronically
• 38:21
  barely on time. That's true.
• 38:23
  I mean, before I got sober, I mean, I would drive to work
• 38:26
  hungover with two off brand sugar free Pedialyte chili
• 38:32
  willies hanging out of my mouth, leaving the take, wake up at
• 38:35
  8:10 to take a shower and be at work at 8:30, driving downtown
• 38:38
  just frazzled. I'd get there at 8:30 and this
• 38:41
  guy just said, I want you to try to be 15 minutes really
• 38:43
  everywhere you go. And you know what, it changed my
• 38:47
  life in so many ways because I can enjoy, not only am I being
• 38:51
  respectful, and if I do, if I find myself in a traffic jam or
• 38:55
  something, I'm still going to be on time unless it's really like
• 38:58
  a massive thing, you know, and, and when I, if I do get there
• 39:00
  early, I can look at my phone, I can make a phone call, I can
• 39:03
  meditate, I can do whatever. But in the morning, it keeps me,
• 39:07
  I'm able to enjoy my morning routine of prayer, meditation,
• 39:11
  taking a shower, doing my reading.
• 39:12
  I'm not stressed and I so glad you pointed that out today
• 39:17
  because that being early, not only is it respectful to not not
• 39:22
  be late, it shows we value other people's time as much as they
• 39:25
  should. You know, we hope they value
• 39:27
  ours, but the amount of stress eliminated from our lives in
• 39:31
  little pieces by not running late and being barely on time is
• 39:34
  immeasurable. I just wanted to point out and
• 39:37
  say thank you, point that out and thank you for bringing it
• 39:39
  up. I'm serious.
• 39:40
  Yeah, no, I, I this is how I awkwardly accept to thank you is
• 39:44
  by laughing it off. I, yeah, I think it's, it's,
• 39:47
  it's one of the many like shifts in perspective, right?
• 39:49
  Like I can and and there are times where I will show up early
• 39:52
  transactionally so that, you know, that I showed up early
• 39:55
  because I want to present in that way these days is
• 39:58
  transformational. I show up early because if I
• 40:01
  show up on time and it's like let's go hit the ground running,
• 40:04
  I protect myself from having 10 minutes with myself.
• 40:09
  Which at times can be terrifying, particularly in
• 40:12
  early recovery, at least in my experience these days.
• 40:15
  I, I kind of dig hanging out by myself like I'm, I'm, I'm
• 40:20
  comfortable and, and I think healthily competent in who I am
• 40:25
  and who I am becoming. So if I'm 20 minutes early, you
• 40:28
  know, it is, it is an element for sure of.
• 40:31
  They said be there at this time. So I'm gonna be there at that
• 40:34
  time and I can weaponize that as much as anything else.
• 40:39
  I can weaponize a bag of Doritos, but it's not about like
• 40:43
  I'm going to be here early because that way if you're not
• 40:45
  there when you told me to be there now there's a power
• 40:47
  dynamic that I've established. Oh, man, I just, I motivation is
• 40:52
  great. You know, you talked about
• 40:53
  willingness. I think willingness is great.
• 40:55
  And like it's some somewhere around the journey, earlier
• 41:00
  parts of the journey. I couldn't tell you the date or
• 41:01
  the month or probably the year, but like discipline is
• 41:05
  important. Like make your bed every
• 41:07
  morning, brush your teeth like at least twice a day.
• 41:10
  Like these little things, like you're talking about thing, they
• 41:13
  matter. They matter in the self talk.
• 41:16
  I'm aware of they matter in the self talk that I don't even know
• 41:19
  that I'm I'm, I'm dishing out to myself and that impacts how I
• 41:23
  show up to anybody else throughout the course of my day.
• 41:26
  So like, you know, it, I think so much of it, it, it was for
• 41:31
  you. Don't get me wrong, it was for
• 41:33
  you. And it's.
• 41:36
  Yeah, of course it is. It's all about, it's all about,
• 41:39
  well, it can't be all about you because it's all about me.
• 41:41
  But we can talk about that after that.
• 41:44
  But I don't, I don't mind being here for 15 minutes or however
• 41:49
  long it was 5 minutes without anyone else on the call because
• 41:54
  I'm OK now. I'm not running from as much.
• 41:57
  And that's, that's the gig, you know?
• 42:01
  Yeah. Amen.
• 42:03
  Great place to wrap it up, will you?
• 42:05
  We always just ask our guests just to, we're going to put all
• 42:08
  your particulars on, you know, the YouTube and on Spotify and
• 42:13
  all that stuff. But how do how do people find
• 42:16
  you? I think the easiest way to get
• 42:19
  in touch with us is through the website pivotpointwnc.org.
• 42:25
  You'll have a contact page, you'll have our, our director of
• 42:29
  PR, you'll have our admissions and outreach person and their
• 42:32
  contact information. There's an e-mail, there's phone
• 42:35
  numbers on there. We do events all over the town.
• 42:38
  A couple times a year we'll blow that up.
• 42:40
  And then, as you said, like we, you know, we've got some social
• 42:44
  media presence, which is humble but informational.
• 42:49
  Yeah. Well, thank you so much for
• 42:52
  being on here today and it's great to see you again and I'll
• 42:55
  see you in Charlotte soon. And I'm so glad you were able to
• 42:58
  pivot and and continue to pivot and figure things out.
• 43:01
  So that's it's awesome. You're doing great work man.
• 43:03
  Thank you. Thank you, man.
• 43:05
  Appreciate that. Yeah, Thank you both for having
• 43:06
  me. Appreciate it.
• 43:07
  If you like what you heard today or just want to know more, give
• 43:10
  us a call on 9196708119 or visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
• 43:17
  Thank you.