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FTX Testimony and Moderna (Podcast) · Bloomberg Intelligence

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside
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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring
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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast
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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. It's get into the
0:22
Speaker 1: crypto map. Look at the bitcoin. It's up four percent today,
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Speaker 1: just under eighteencoin. Look at the bitcoin. Yeah, look, all right,
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Speaker 1: are we are? Let's let I think we have to separate, right,
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Speaker 1: and we'll do that, and we'll do Gray Felt is
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Speaker 1: right here. I think Mike mcglonna is on the line
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Speaker 1: from the self and proclaimed crypto capital of MYAMI law
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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence Commodities Analysts. Um, we do have to separate. Sweet,
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Speaker 1: Now we've got the smart Nathan Dean, got some smart
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Speaker 1: people on. Now you got Nathan Dean, who knows everything
0:56
Speaker 1: that's going on in Washington. I think we have to
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Speaker 1: differentiate what's going on on, uh in Congress and with
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Speaker 1: Sam Bankman freed from what's happening with the asked with
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Speaker 1: the bitcoin, as you say, with the underlying asset, Katie,
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Speaker 1: You've seen incredible stability and resilience I think in bitcoins
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Speaker 1: and now rally well. Bitcoin is a macro asset. The
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Speaker 1: fact that we are talking about I don't know, still
1:23
Speaker 1: a seven handle on CPI, but much fuller than what
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Speaker 1: was expected. That's going to be good for Bitcoin, because,
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Speaker 1: I mean, Matt, you've been making the point over the
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Speaker 1: past months, these are two separate happenings. What's happening with
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Speaker 1: these centralized exchanges. What's happening with Sam Bangman Freed and
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Speaker 1: his collapsing empire that's different from the bitcoin blockchain, that's
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Speaker 1: different from the bitcoin token. And is there a more
1:46
Speaker 1: stark example than today's price action. Probably not, Mike, does Mike,
1:49
Speaker 1: does this price action have anything to do with the
1:51
Speaker 1: arrest of Sam Bankman Freed. It's such a classic macro
1:56
Speaker 1: everything short covering day. Today, coins up the same as
2:00
Speaker 1: much as the nastic was this morning. There's massive shorts,
2:03
Speaker 1: and the nastic options exploration is this week. There's a
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Speaker 1: huge amount of concentration of open interest right below the
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Speaker 1: price we were yesterday, and they're just flushing the shorts.
2:12
Speaker 1: And that's what happens in bear markets. Remember this is
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Speaker 1: still a really bad inflation and spend a significant bear markets.
2:18
Speaker 1: So Bitcoin, yeah, it looks like it's bouncing. It's going
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Speaker 1: to see very good resistance around twenty thou people have
2:23
Speaker 1: given up in sand Bank and Fry. The key story
2:25
Speaker 1: today in crypto is how binances having massive outflows, and
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Speaker 1: that's just because people want the key, the you know,
2:31
Speaker 1: get their coins off the exchange. But turning over to midcoin,
2:34
Speaker 1: crude oil, everything, the one markets has showing the most
2:37
Speaker 1: significant technical integation today is gold. Gold just bounce jumped above.
2:41
Speaker 1: It's fifty and a hunter week moving averages. And I
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Speaker 1: fully expect you the only market you can say that about.
2:45
Speaker 1: And I fully expect Bitcoin at some point it's gonna
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Speaker 1: get there. But Bitcoin is still a risk asset. Hey, Nathan,
2:50
Speaker 1: Nathan Dean, your senior policy analysom Bloomberg Intelligence. You're based
2:54
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. That's your cross the bear. But
2:57
Speaker 1: tell us about what you expect to hear from your Congress,
3:01
Speaker 1: your regulators in Washington. This is your wheelhouse, mark. I see,
3:04
Speaker 1: I see Maxine Waters sitting down right now exactly, so
3:07
Speaker 1: you know, just real quickly, the you know, just one
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Speaker 1: thing I wanted to call out on bitcoin. Though Bitcoin
3:12
Speaker 1: does have a safety net to it in terms of
3:14
Speaker 1: what we're gonna hear today in terms of FTX and
3:16
Speaker 1: the hearings and so forth, because the courts have deemed
3:18
Speaker 1: it a commodity and therefore the legislators are pretty confident
3:22
Speaker 1: that bitcoin is is safe from a regulatory perspective. What
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Speaker 1: we're gonna hear in the hearing today, you know, look,
3:28
Speaker 1: the policymakers, we're going to try and score a lot
3:30
Speaker 1: of political points. With Sam Bankman freed now that he's
3:33
Speaker 1: not gonna be here, those political points are gonna come down.
3:36
Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna learn much in the way
3:38
Speaker 1: of policy clues of what legislators want to do. But
3:41
Speaker 1: my worst case scenario, worst case being for the crypto
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Speaker 1: currency industry is if you hear policymakers try and reiterate
3:48
Speaker 1: what represented Brad Sherman likes to say, and I'm paraphrasing here,
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Speaker 1: but essentially let crypto burn. So if you hear some
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Speaker 1: of the progressive lawmakers begin to echo those statements, that's
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Speaker 1: really bad thing going in the It condent a lot
4:00
Speaker 1: of the momentum for providing regulatory clarity. Going forward, Nathan,
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Speaker 1: I got to ask a question, and I'll first say,
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Speaker 1: I'm not like some kind of q and on four
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Speaker 1: Chan conspiracy theorist. Okay, okay, but the timing to me
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Speaker 1: seems just questionable that Sam Bankman Freed is arrested hours
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Speaker 1: before he testifies in front of Congress. Are you hearing
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Speaker 1: anyone else ask this question? You know? Why? Now? Why
4:32
Speaker 1: in this moment? Absolutely? I mean the chairwoman, Maxine Waters
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Speaker 1: even said that this morning. She just said it was
4:38
Speaker 1: really unfortunate that, uh, you know, we weren't going to
4:41
Speaker 1: hear directly form Sam Bankman Freed. And you know, there
4:44
Speaker 1: is some draft of his testimony that is going around,
4:47
Speaker 1: and if it was the actual draft, there was a
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Speaker 1: lot of information that he was going to put out there,
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Speaker 1: you know. So unfortunately, from the policymaker standpoint, they're not
4:55
Speaker 1: going to be able to you know, talk to Sam
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Speaker 1: Bankman Freed and so forth like that. But you are
5:00
Speaker 1: going to hear about a lot of the bad actions
5:02
Speaker 1: or at least the alleged actions and so forth from
5:05
Speaker 1: John Ray in today's hearing, and you know, it will
5:08
Speaker 1: be very interesting to see if you know, policymakers, you know,
5:12
Speaker 1: really group on like custody or customer protection or securities,
5:16
Speaker 1: because the Democrats want to do something in response to this.
5:19
Speaker 1: The Republicans want to do something, but that's something is
5:21
Speaker 1: completely different, and part of them don't even know what
5:24
Speaker 1: that something is. So, you know, it's just the first
5:27
Speaker 1: stage of a long process that Congress has to get through,
5:29
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have to go through this against tomorrow
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Speaker 1: when the Senate Banking Committee has their own hearing on this. Hey, Mike,
5:35
Speaker 1: what is I guess this? I guess to me, it
5:38
Speaker 1: just feels like a new phase, and it's a phase
5:40
Speaker 1: in the development of crypto, which is regulatory oversight, regulatory attention.
5:46
Speaker 1: I mean, if that's a fact what we're seeing, what
5:49
Speaker 1: does that mean? What are you hearing from some investors
5:51
Speaker 1: as a related to crypto, Well, the retail are getting
5:55
Speaker 1: hurt because a lot of them are losing money. Unfortunately,
5:57
Speaker 1: people who had investments with some of these firms are
6:00
Speaker 1: through some of these firms. But from a regulatory institutional standpoint,
6:03
Speaker 1: this is what is clearly needed and I think Nathan
6:06
Speaker 1: will be able to expond on that. And this space
6:09
Speaker 1: is just you know that no needed be decentralized and
6:11
Speaker 1: you know, it just realized we need some good supervision
6:14
Speaker 1: here because they're bad actors. We found out some of
6:16
Speaker 1: the bad actors are just going out and taking people's money.
6:19
Speaker 1: So that regulation, I think, is this is we're gonna
6:21
Speaker 1: look back at. Is this is part of that paradigm
6:23
Speaker 1: shift that's going to flip over to Okay, you know
6:24
Speaker 1: what the space arena what solves this? From our et
6:27
Speaker 1: F team, Eric Felt Tunist and James Sefford is an
6:29
Speaker 1: e t F um et F would you know, you
6:32
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about your counterparty typically, So to me,
6:35
Speaker 1: that's one thing that will make a difference that should
6:37
Speaker 1: excite that process and not just ne t F tracking
6:40
Speaker 1: bitcoin trapping and index of cryptos like we do most
6:43
Speaker 1: equities and bonds. Katie Katie Greifeld is not only a
6:48
Speaker 1: cross ass or reporter, she's also what is your new
6:51
Speaker 1: title I heard yesterday on the radio, Senior Financial Analysts
6:54
Speaker 1: or something. Definitely not a financial act but she is
6:56
Speaker 1: the co host of e t F i Q on Bloberg.
6:59
Speaker 1: Who's other co host, Well, it's Matt Miller Beltunists also
7:03
Speaker 1: is there every single week. I mean I've spoken to
7:06
Speaker 1: a lot of people with that view that a lot
7:08
Speaker 1: of this pain that you're seeing among retail investors right
7:12
Speaker 1: now would have been avoided if the e t F
7:14
Speaker 1: wrapper had been made available from the get go. But
7:17
Speaker 1: at this moment in time, has a spot bitcoin e
7:20
Speaker 1: t F ever felt farther away. I think it's been
7:23
Speaker 1: pushed so far down the priority list. Gensler is definitely
7:28
Speaker 1: taking a victory lap here. So I also want to
7:31
Speaker 1: point out that, um, I'll take issue with the statement
7:34
Speaker 1: that regulation is needed just from the total like libertarian
7:38
Speaker 1: o g bitcoin point of view. If you don't share
7:42
Speaker 1: your private key with anybody else, if you hold your
7:45
Speaker 1: own assets, this is a trust less asset, so there's
7:49
Speaker 1: no there's no need for that kind of regulation. Nless,
7:51
Speaker 1: you're letting Sam bankman Fried hold your stuff like dude,
7:54
Speaker 1: hold my stuff, you know, don't spend it. That's what
7:57
Speaker 1: the bitcoin maximalists are saying. They feel vindicated did here.
8:00
Speaker 1: It's all of this Frankenstein industry that was built on
8:04
Speaker 1: top of what's supposed to be you know, people just
8:06
Speaker 1: holding bitcoin in their cold wallets. But those but those
8:09
Speaker 1: people are dinosaurs and cavemen like and Nathan, I mean
8:13
Speaker 1: you you wrote in a research note. I think I
8:16
Speaker 1: don't know yesterday the day before that even though firms
8:19
Speaker 1: like coin base and um you know, Genesis Finance, etcetera.
8:24
Speaker 1: Would face tens of millions of dollars in compliance costs,
8:28
Speaker 1: they would still welcome some kind of regulation. Absolutely. I mean,
8:32
Speaker 1: anytime you have this type of new regulations come out
8:34
Speaker 1: and this is an a crypto. I mean we saw
8:36
Speaker 1: this with Dodd Frank. What it does is it it
8:39
Speaker 1: allows the big market players, the folks that have the
8:42
Speaker 1: compliance spend, the technology spent, to actually gain market share,
8:46
Speaker 1: and it pushes out the mom and pops of the world.
8:48
Speaker 1: And you know, when you talk about all the legislative
8:50
Speaker 1: solutions that are being thrown out there right now, it
8:53
Speaker 1: really is geared towards institutional I mean you go back
8:56
Speaker 1: to the retail argument or the discussion we were just having.
8:59
Speaker 1: If any of the bill is that were to come
9:00
Speaker 1: up in two past, it would have helped coin base
9:04
Speaker 1: and f t X and Finance and even like black
9:06
Speaker 1: Rock and Fidelity, it would not have helped the mom
9:09
Speaker 1: and pops, the web three startups and so forth. Because
9:12
Speaker 1: if any legislation passes in I think it has to
9:15
Speaker 1: include the provision that securities, Sorry, the tokens out there
9:20
Speaker 1: are securities and therefore go to the Securities and Exchange Commission.
9:24
Speaker 1: So you know, that's not what a decentralized community wants.
9:27
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be really interesting to see if the
9:30
Speaker 1: crypto industry next year starts actually lobbying against some of
9:34
Speaker 1: the solutions that we're going to see come from the lawmakers. Hey, Mike,
9:37
Speaker 1: you're based in Miami here, And again, the good folks
9:41
Speaker 1: in Miami have been it's such a growing marketplace for
9:44
Speaker 1: financial services, and then they've been you know, the city
9:46
Speaker 1: itself has been advocating that. You know, they really want
9:49
Speaker 1: to be a center for all things crypto. What what's
9:52
Speaker 1: the feeling in Miami here as we think about what's
9:55
Speaker 1: happened to Sam BANKMN, Freed and f t X and
9:58
Speaker 1: the whole space over the last several weeks. They still
10:00
Speaker 1: have a stadium. Yes that's not the name is still
10:05
Speaker 1: on it. There's some kind of legal issue. When I
10:06
Speaker 1: was worked by with my wife the other day, they
10:08
Speaker 1: got to get a picture. We haven't had a picture
10:09
Speaker 1: in front of it, but the name is still on
10:11
Speaker 1: the stadium. But there was a Web three conference two
10:13
Speaker 1: weeks ago that I participated in Mayor so far as spoken,
10:16
Speaker 1: there's still quite the it was. It was full, I
10:18
Speaker 1: was replised. I was at a conference in Vegas in October.
10:21
Speaker 1: It was empty. It was full, and there's still quite
10:23
Speaker 1: the positive attitude to the bigger picture. I think from
10:26
Speaker 1: retail standpoint it's much different. From the institutional standpoint, it's
10:29
Speaker 1: still quite we're building this. This is part of the
10:32
Speaker 1: pain of a nascent asset technology, and unfortunately this is
10:36
Speaker 1: just the extreme. But one thing I want to point
10:38
Speaker 1: out is a lesson I learned, and I think y
10:40
Speaker 1: SEC is good about this. The first day in the
10:41
Speaker 1: border trade by the waterfront, I saw a note that
10:43
Speaker 1: said the ultimate seduction of other people's money. And that's
10:46
Speaker 1: what we're learning the lessons of now. So it's I mean,
10:48
Speaker 1: trading crypto seems to to the Mike mclogans of the
10:51
Speaker 1: world who have been trading you know, pork belly futures
10:55
Speaker 1: and corn futures. I mean, it's all kind of there's
10:57
Speaker 1: a lot of lessons that kind of you can learn from.
11:00
Speaker 1: This kind of thing happens in a lot of assets.
11:01
Speaker 1: And look, I'm still shocked that bitcoin is worth seventeen
11:05
Speaker 1: and a half thousand dollars. I remember, you know, I
11:09
Speaker 1: remember when U Joe Wisenthal said to me, Hey, if
11:13
Speaker 1: you liked it at a thousand, you should like it
11:14
Speaker 1: at two fifty. And I was like, I do, dude,
11:17
Speaker 1: And I would back up the truck if it weren't
11:20
Speaker 1: for you have a truck. My ethical um concerns, you can't,
11:24
Speaker 1: you know, obviously report on an asset that you own. Now,
11:27
Speaker 1: I kind of wish i'd thrown those ethical concerns to
11:29
Speaker 1: the way, and you know, but but nonetheless, it's obviously
11:33
Speaker 1: it's come down considerably from what was the high, like
11:37
Speaker 1: sixty five, well that's appropriate, um so, down to seventeen
11:41
Speaker 1: and a half, which was kind of like the last
11:43
Speaker 1: peak right in two thousand seventeen, Mike, wasn't it wasn't
11:45
Speaker 1: that where where it peaked and then it dropped back
11:47
Speaker 1: down at three or four thousand. Yes, so I think
11:50
Speaker 1: it's billion a foundation compared to that five thousand then,
11:53
Speaker 1: which bottom at three thousand. So it might get as
11:55
Speaker 1: well as twelve thousand. I'm not disputing that. Because this
11:58
Speaker 1: is a bear market. There's a good reason for it,
12:00
Speaker 1: but that's probably gonna be a foundation for the next
12:02
Speaker 1: ten x rally, because the key thing that's really notable
12:05
Speaker 1: this year is you look at open interest enlisted futures,
12:08
Speaker 1: clearly your bull market Bitcoin. You look at open interest
12:10
Speaker 1: at all the Camani's most nobly crude, which is why
12:13
Speaker 1: been bear is clearly a bear market open interests. So
12:15
Speaker 1: it's going institutional, it's taking time, and this is part
12:18
Speaker 1: of the growing pains. The question is right now we
12:20
Speaker 1: are an a massive bear market in all assets except
12:23
Speaker 1: the one thing that are coming out of it and
12:24
Speaker 1: showing signs of it is bonds and gold. Bitcoin is
12:27
Speaker 1: still risk. As I want to just point out that
12:29
Speaker 1: Maxine Waters has finished and now we're listening to Mr
12:33
Speaker 1: mckenry um give his opening statements. Before we get to um,
12:39
Speaker 1: what's his name, John Ray, John Jay Ray, the third
12:43
Speaker 1: uh Sam Bank and Freed would have been testifying here,
12:46
Speaker 1: but he was arrested. Like what Mr sam bankman Fried,
12:50
Speaker 1: we would have wells draft remarks, so maybe we would
12:55
Speaker 1: have seen some clauses fixed up and cleaned up. But
12:58
Speaker 1: we did see the draft remark. He started by saying
13:02
Speaker 1: he messed up. He used a different word and starts
13:05
Speaker 1: off by dropping the f bomb, which is classic classic
13:08
Speaker 1: kid Mike drop from the start, but then it kind
13:12
Speaker 1: of goes a little bit off the rails. I mean,
13:14
Speaker 1: he was still taking shots at c Z of course,
13:17
Speaker 1: that is the CEO of Rival Exchange Finance. He also
13:20
Speaker 1: talked about John J. Ray the Third, who is the
13:23
Speaker 1: new CEO of f TX, saying that he's reached out
13:26
Speaker 1: to Ray multiple times to offer to help to sift
13:30
Speaker 1: through the wreckage the reporting the records. Apparently Ray hasn't
13:35
Speaker 1: responded to five of Makemnfried's emails, so it's an interesting
13:41
Speaker 1: a little bit of he said. He said, right, of course,
13:44
Speaker 1: is going to testify today, so that's the main event,
13:46
Speaker 1: so we'll see what he says. Well, and I mean,
13:48
Speaker 1: what we're really waiting for. This is all interesting theater
13:52
Speaker 1: and it'll be I think, in some ways fun for
13:55
Speaker 1: those of us who are invested, um, not financially but
13:59
Speaker 1: financial professionally. But what really matters, as Nathan pointed out,
14:04
Speaker 1: is getting some uh indication of what regulation we're going
14:09
Speaker 1: to see. And Nathan, you also drew an interesting distinction
14:13
Speaker 1: I thought, between you know, the bitcoins and the dose
14:16
Speaker 1: coins of the world and the tethers and usdcs right,
14:19
Speaker 1: the stable coins are where we are likely to get
14:23
Speaker 1: regulation first. What do we expect some real transparency there? Yeah. So,
14:27
Speaker 1: and don't be surprised if you see stable coins come
14:30
Speaker 1: up quite a bit in this hearing today, because you know,
14:33
Speaker 1: there is this bill out there that's being negotiated by
14:36
Speaker 1: Chairwoman Mixing Waters, ranking Em mckenry the Treasury Department, and
14:41
Speaker 1: this bill I actually think has a decent shot of
14:43
Speaker 1: passage early next year. Wait, was this bill co authored
14:47
Speaker 1: by Sam Bankman Fried? It was not, and so but
14:50
Speaker 1: the House Financial Services Committee is using the FTX collapse
14:54
Speaker 1: as a way to propel it's stable coin bill. This
14:56
Speaker 1: bill actually started when the you know, when we had
14:59
Speaker 1: the stable coin issues earlier this year. But this bill
15:02
Speaker 1: at a high level would allow both bank issuers and
15:04
Speaker 1: non bank issuers to register with regulators. There's still some
15:07
Speaker 1: makeups over the non bank side, but it would also
15:10
Speaker 1: allow stable coins to operate as long as they're backed
15:13
Speaker 1: up a percent by high quality liquid assets. So don't
15:16
Speaker 1: be surprised if you see a lot of stable coin language.
15:18
Speaker 1: It's honestly they're just using this as a platform to
15:21
Speaker 1: push forward the momentum on that the state the the
15:25
Speaker 1: the ft X Bill, the Digital Commodities Consumer Protection Act.
15:28
Speaker 1: You know, it's tainted. It's not going to go anywhere.
15:31
Speaker 1: You're not even gonna be able to bring it back
15:32
Speaker 1: with the same name. Certain provisions are going to be
15:35
Speaker 1: in there, uh, you know, like solidifying Bitcoin and his
15:38
Speaker 1: theorum as commodities, you know, giving the SEC control and
15:41
Speaker 1: potentially you know, having a lot more custody uh discussions.
15:45
Speaker 1: But I was talking to a brokerage earlier this week
15:47
Speaker 1: and the gentleman said, you know, I've been doing custody
15:49
Speaker 1: before computers were invented. So the ideas were actually are
15:52
Speaker 1: still there. It's just Congress needs to get through the
15:54
Speaker 1: system of trying to figure out how, okay, how do
15:56
Speaker 1: we write the legislative language and get it to a
15:58
Speaker 1: point where both Republicans and Democrats can agree. We invented computers.
16:03
Speaker 1: Bloomberg invented computer We did built them. When I saw
16:10
Speaker 1: the story today, I immediately sent it around to all
16:13
Speaker 1: of my family. It's it's it's it's hugely hopeful. So
16:17
Speaker 1: how far away do you think we are from an
16:20
Speaker 1: actual on the market um medicine to to help, you know,
16:26
Speaker 1: stop people dying from melanoma from cancer skin cancer. So
16:30
Speaker 1: I think we're a few years away, and not five
16:32
Speaker 1: or ten years. A few years away. I mean basically,
16:34
Speaker 1: what we have to do in twenty three, based on
16:37
Speaker 1: this great data and we know it's real because of
16:40
Speaker 1: a P value is very statistically significant, is we're going
16:44
Speaker 1: to start a phase free in melanoma three. I guess
16:47
Speaker 1: he's gonna take twelve to eight moves to enroll, and
16:50
Speaker 1: then we need to wait twelve months to get twelveth
16:52
Speaker 1: of survival data and then find the super regulate all.
16:56
Speaker 1: So that's a couple of years. Aware. Now that the
16:58
Speaker 1: data is out, we're gonna go discussing with the f
17:01
Speaker 1: D and over regulatory agencies to see is their way
17:04
Speaker 1: to even accelerate that. So this is to be discussed well,
17:07
Speaker 1: regulate alls. But that's for me nanoma. The great thing
17:10
Speaker 1: about today is of course for all the families that
17:14
Speaker 1: have you know, kind of a high risk government enoma.
17:17
Speaker 1: But the great news for me today is I think
17:19
Speaker 1: this is kind of immunotherapy two point zero because what
17:22
Speaker 1: we saw over checkpoint and okate you dry and and
17:25
Speaker 1: and all those medicines is a huge ability to impact
17:30
Speaker 1: your immune system to kind of wake up your immune
17:32
Speaker 1: system to go eat your cancer. But what we've shown
17:35
Speaker 1: this morning for a first time in the history of
17:37
Speaker 1: medicine is our ability to design a product for one
17:42
Speaker 1: human being at the time where we could in our
17:44
Speaker 1: medicine the mutation of your specific cancer. And we've shown
17:49
Speaker 1: this morning, given the huge difference of recurrence and death,
17:53
Speaker 1: we as SCATECH to drop a goal standard. We show
17:55
Speaker 1: that we can teach your t sers which is part
17:58
Speaker 1: of the immune system, to recognize your cancer and then
18:02
Speaker 1: go eat it. And so I'm very excited about this.
18:05
Speaker 1: Plus this is modern that technology. You know, we made
18:09
Speaker 1: a lot of progressing then, so do I believe we
18:12
Speaker 1: can do better? I do you know it took us
18:14
Speaker 1: forty five days on average to get the drugs to
18:17
Speaker 1: patients from a biopsy. I think you have a line
18:20
Speaker 1: of site to thirty days that we save more lives,
18:23
Speaker 1: and I want to keep pushing the team to even
18:25
Speaker 1: go faster so that we can help as many people
18:28
Speaker 1: as we can across many cancer types. So, Steven, I
18:30
Speaker 1: mean this seems promising not just in fighting melanoma and
18:35
Speaker 1: fighting skin cancer, but in fighting other cancers as well. Exactly,
18:39
Speaker 1: So I think every solid tumor cancer is fair game now,
18:43
Speaker 1: does he mean it's gonna work everywhere? We will have
18:46
Speaker 1: to do the clinical studies. But the good news, given
18:49
Speaker 1: the safety profile of a product was very good. The
18:51
Speaker 1: safety profile of a combination modern aplust look very similar
18:56
Speaker 1: to you draw alone. As you know, sometimes with combination
18:59
Speaker 1: you see worst toxicity, and so we're not really viable
19:03
Speaker 1: for patients. And so what's very exciting now is given
19:07
Speaker 1: we are very strong data in a lot of people,
19:09
Speaker 1: our goal is to run several phase freeze at the
19:13
Speaker 1: same time in melanoma obviously, but we're working with colleagues
19:16
Speaker 1: that mark to prioritize which over two most we start in.
19:21
Speaker 1: As you know, cy Ray is using lung cancer and
19:24
Speaker 1: breast cancer in Reynald cancer and many of our cancers,
19:27
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna try those first. I also want
19:29
Speaker 1: to explore what can we do to people that are
19:33
Speaker 1: metastasies in the cancer I also want to explore in
19:36
Speaker 1: our personalized cancer vaccident MODERNA alone. You have a great
19:39
Speaker 1: news is we have now seventeen billion dollars of cash,
19:42
Speaker 1: and so we want to invest that capital to make
19:44
Speaker 1: new medicine. And this is a great place to invest
19:46
Speaker 1: because there's a big medical need for cancer. Stephan talked
19:50
Speaker 1: to us about the the size of this market. How
19:53
Speaker 1: do you think about the opportunity for this particular therapeutic. So,
19:58
Speaker 1: I think it's a very big US. One comparator is
20:01
Speaker 1: Kate you drew our sales which is on the run
20:03
Speaker 1: rate of sixteen billion dollar per year and analyst predicted
20:06
Speaker 1: up to thirty billion by when Kit you Drew expires.
20:10
Speaker 1: And so when you look at what k you do
20:12
Speaker 1: I did, Let's go back a bit in history during
20:14
Speaker 1: its face free Kit you do should a forty percent reduction.
20:18
Speaker 1: We just standard of care then in terms of recurrence
20:23
Speaker 1: and death on the same metrics we showed this morning
20:26
Speaker 1: your forty four percent decrease because draw the new goal standards.
20:30
Speaker 1: And so do I believe the opportunity of moderna PCV
20:34
Speaker 1: down the road as we expand to more cancer types,
20:36
Speaker 1: as we expend to metastatic stage, as we expand too
20:40
Speaker 1: earlier cancer could be as big or even bigger and
20:43
Speaker 1: Kit you draw, I do think so. So I think
20:44
Speaker 1: it's a very large opportunity. Stuff And how is the
20:48
Speaker 1: approval process evolved over the last several years since the pandemic.
20:52
Speaker 1: When you interact with the FDA and you've done it
20:54
Speaker 1: for obviously for for many many years, has it changed,
20:57
Speaker 1: has it become perhaps easier, more streamline, and how are
21:00
Speaker 1: you finding it? So I think the FDA first has
21:04
Speaker 1: one an amazing job during the pandemic that we all
21:06
Speaker 1: benefited from. I think the FDA has much better understanding
21:12
Speaker 1: of modern as MN a platform. And I think the
21:15
Speaker 1: f D now understand that this is a platform in
21:18
Speaker 1: the early days if you want to award, of course,
21:20
Speaker 1: to prove to the regulator, which both of you and
21:23
Speaker 1: everybody wishes that are regulators do to protect all of us,
21:27
Speaker 1: to get the clinical data to help us understand what
21:31
Speaker 1: is similar between each drugs of MODERNA. The great news
21:35
Speaker 1: about this product for cancer that we announced this morning
21:38
Speaker 1: is it's one the same chemical matter for making the
21:43
Speaker 1: AMOUNTY and spike BAX, the COVID nighting vaccine. It's the
21:47
Speaker 1: same lipid chemical, it's the same manufacturing process. So think
21:51
Speaker 1: about the comfort in terms of safety of a product
21:54
Speaker 1: that this provides the regulator and us. So I think
21:58
Speaker 1: the FDA as really a much better understanding of EMMA
22:02
Speaker 1: only as a technology. Then they did a few years
22:04
Speaker 1: ago because we were not able to provide them the
22:06
Speaker 1: data that we have since stuff. And in terms of
22:10
Speaker 1: you know, other cancer treatments, how do you think this
22:13
Speaker 1: will evolve over the next several years. I mean, obviously,
22:16
Speaker 1: the news you have today with your drug as it
22:19
Speaker 1: relates to me melanomas is a big step forward. And
22:22
Speaker 1: she stepped back and think about cancer broadly defined. How
22:25
Speaker 1: do you think you and your colleagues in in the
22:27
Speaker 1: biotech and pharmaceutical industries will be attacking cancer? Sure? I
22:33
Speaker 1: think we've made two significant scientific massive step forward in
22:38
Speaker 1: the last let's say five to ten years. One is
22:41
Speaker 1: we now believe a scientific community that cancer is always
22:45
Speaker 1: a disease of mutation of your DNA. So that's an
22:49
Speaker 1: important thing because once you understand thing in science, you
22:52
Speaker 1: are smarter at what tools are deploy to go after
22:54
Speaker 1: a problem. And so that's a big deal. That's just
22:57
Speaker 1: where we were twenty or fty years ago when we
22:58
Speaker 1: kind of no idea where fully was canceled. The second
23:02
Speaker 1: piece is we were so really understood the role of
23:05
Speaker 1: the immune system. Because what we know today is we
23:08
Speaker 1: all have cancers all the time. I've had cancer all
23:12
Speaker 1: the time in my life, since I was on the
23:13
Speaker 1: planet in a fifty f last fifty years. But because
23:16
Speaker 1: my immune system was able right from the time one
23:20
Speaker 1: cell in my body becomes cancerous ying mutation, because it's
23:24
Speaker 1: a healthy cell that my immune system was able to
23:27
Speaker 1: identify it and take care of it really quickly. Well,
23:31
Speaker 1: when your immune system is not healthy because we age,
23:34
Speaker 1: because we have a lot of stress in all life,
23:36
Speaker 1: because we're not healthy in term of physical health, mental health,
23:39
Speaker 1: sleep and all those good stuff that is really important
23:42
Speaker 1: for for immune health, well you might have one cancer
23:46
Speaker 1: cell that happiest in your body that your immne system misses,
23:50
Speaker 1: and that cancer cell becomes two and fall and becomes
23:53
Speaker 1: a tumor. And so what is very significant about those
23:56
Speaker 1: two scientific understanding is once you understand this, you can
24:00
Speaker 1: and go after a solution. So if you figure about
24:01
Speaker 1: iminotherapy one point zero the checkpoints the kids to draw
24:05
Speaker 1: this world, it was about how do you give a
24:07
Speaker 1: big kick in the immune system to kind of quote
24:09
Speaker 1: and quote wake it up to say, hey, guys, you
24:12
Speaker 1: meet something, go go find the thing you missed. And
24:14
Speaker 1: we've seen amazing progress. As I said, the phase three
24:18
Speaker 1: min anama of kids. You drive alone at the time
24:20
Speaker 1: was forty percent production of recurrence and death. Amazing. Well,
24:25
Speaker 1: the piece we're adding today to arsenal against cancer that
24:28
Speaker 1: we have disability to know for a fact, that we
24:33
Speaker 1: can teach your T cell might ty cells to recognize
24:36
Speaker 1: mutation that it has missed. So that's that's huge. And
24:39
Speaker 1: then I think the entire field is going to play
24:41
Speaker 1: around those different dimensions to think about what are the
24:44
Speaker 1: things we can combine to get your body the toolday
24:47
Speaker 1: needs to go and eat your cancer, because that's really
24:50
Speaker 1: the best thing, especially for people that I met, the
24:52
Speaker 1: static stage where you have two mols around your bodies
24:55
Speaker 1: because you you cancer is spreading. Disability to teach the
24:58
Speaker 1: immane system how to go clean it up is what
25:01
Speaker 1: I think is really the future of cancer. Let me
25:03
Speaker 1: ask you switch directions a little and ask you a
25:05
Speaker 1: little bit about COVID, because I know that you are
25:08
Speaker 1: in discussions to provide the Chinese with your vaccine um.
25:13
Speaker 1: What does it look like on the ground there as
25:15
Speaker 1: they start to open up? Is it going to spread rapidly?
25:19
Speaker 1: So as you see and its reported in the media,
25:23
Speaker 1: it is spreading rapidly, which was expected by every scientist
25:26
Speaker 1: I talked to internally at moderna or externally because as
25:30
Speaker 1: we know, the current vaccine that we're using in China
25:34
Speaker 1: didn't have a great efficacy, a lot of people did
25:37
Speaker 1: not take them, and the like in the US or
25:40
Speaker 1: in Europe or I would say most of the rest
25:42
Speaker 1: of the world where a lot of people vaccinated or
25:45
Speaker 1: unvaccinated got infected. And when you get infected, it only
25:49
Speaker 1: acts like a booster because you show your immune system
25:53
Speaker 1: how to to to to deal with the virus. And
25:56
Speaker 1: so I think the challenge that is for Chinese people
26:00
Speaker 1: but also the world because of our economy is being
26:03
Speaker 1: so intertwined with each other, is that you're going to
26:06
Speaker 1: see a very fast bread of cases. Unfortunately, you know,
26:10
Speaker 1: I think people at high risk are gonna you know,
26:13
Speaker 1: be very sick, some of them most bitteralized, some of
26:16
Speaker 1: them dying. So I'm kind of worried about where this
26:20
Speaker 1: is going. This was talked about again for a long time,
26:23
Speaker 1: the immunity coal background of China because of uh, not
26:28
Speaker 1: great vaccines in the past and not infection is going
26:33
Speaker 1: to be He's gonna be complicated. What about delivering vaccines
26:38
Speaker 1: to the you know, massive population um, Have you got
26:44
Speaker 1: the capacity to do that quickly? Will you have partners
26:47
Speaker 1: in providing them vaccines? How quickly will you be able
26:50
Speaker 1: to get the vaccines to them? What's what's the what's
26:53
Speaker 1: it looked like? So the temple we already be dictated
26:57
Speaker 1: by the Chinese of aurities, because like in every country
26:59
Speaker 1: in the world, we need regulatory approval to have the
27:02
Speaker 1: right to imported product and then with of course, the
27:07
Speaker 1: authorities for deployment. So the temple is reset up by
27:10
Speaker 1: the Chinese authorities and discussions are ongoing. In terms of manufacturing.
27:14
Speaker 1: The good news is that, if you think about it,
27:16
Speaker 1: we have shipped most of our demand for the winter
27:20
Speaker 1: in the West already, We've shipped most of a vaccine
27:23
Speaker 1: into the US, into Europe, into Japan and Zon. So
27:26
Speaker 1: you have the ensil manufacturing engine of MODELNA both in
27:29
Speaker 1: the US and in Switzerland that can be deployed for China.
27:32
Speaker 1: So we're literally talking, you know, many hundreds of millions
27:35
Speaker 1: of those is could be made available quickly, even Chinese
27:37
Speaker 1: governments wanted. So, but will you produce vaccines for China
27:42
Speaker 1: here or in Twitzerland or will the Chinese government request
27:46
Speaker 1: that you produce them locally? So if a request is
27:50
Speaker 1: to be made locally for this season. It's impossible to
27:54
Speaker 1: set up you know, clean rooms and transfer the technology
27:58
Speaker 1: and so on in matter of a couple of moss.
28:01
Speaker 1: And we need to move very quickly to the winter.
28:03
Speaker 1: In China. It's an oven themisphere. Chinese New Year is
28:07
Speaker 1: coming very soon, as you know, where a lot of
28:08
Speaker 1: families migrate and move and spend time together like all Thanksgiving,
28:12
Speaker 1: all Christmas, and so I think the timelines of local
28:15
Speaker 1: manufacturing is just not physically possible for this season. It
28:18
Speaker 1: will have to be out of the U S or Switzerland.
28:21
Speaker 1: We will be very happy to discuss about setting up
28:24
Speaker 1: manufacturing facility for next year in China and to bring
28:27
Speaker 1: the technology to China, but it's just not possible this year.
28:31
Speaker 1: So stuff on. What have your discussion has been with
28:33
Speaker 1: China over the last several years. Has it been one
28:35
Speaker 1: of they did not want to import an international solution
28:40
Speaker 1: such as moderness or did they feel like they're vaccine
28:44
Speaker 1: was good enough and maybe how those discussions changed. So
28:50
Speaker 1: we have a discussion with China since the pandemic started,
28:53
Speaker 1: as you know, nothing has happened so far we have
28:55
Speaker 1: all vaccine or or the over a money vaccine. I
28:59
Speaker 1: cannot come on discussions with sovereign as we never do
29:02
Speaker 1: it with any sovereign go on mat As you can understand,
29:05
Speaker 1: we are actively engaged with them to figure out can
29:08
Speaker 1: we be helpful to the situation developing under our eyes
29:11
Speaker 1: right now? How do you expect this too from a
29:14
Speaker 1: timing perspective, because as you mentioned just recently, I mean
29:17
Speaker 1: we are in December, I mean, and this is kind
29:19
Speaker 1: of we're right into the cold and flu and now
29:23
Speaker 1: COVID season. I guess we can put that and included
29:26
Speaker 1: as well. So it's almost like this year it may
29:28
Speaker 1: be too late. Are you more? Is it planning more
29:31
Speaker 1: about next year? So I think it's not going to
29:36
Speaker 1: be too late in the sense that because so many
29:40
Speaker 1: people have not been infect tailed. I think every day matter,
29:44
Speaker 1: every week matter. So I think saying let's throw it
29:47
Speaker 1: to our along finea now and wait for a full
29:49
Speaker 1: of twenty three is a public health mistake which I
29:52
Speaker 1: hope will not happen for the sake of a Chinese
29:55
Speaker 1: people and the sake of the world. Um, what we
29:58
Speaker 1: definitely need to do is as so prepare for next year.
30:01
Speaker 1: But the first thing first is really this season. UM,
30:05
Speaker 1: because as we've seen in the West, you see massive
30:07
Speaker 1: flu and still increasing massive ice V strap COVID. So
30:12
Speaker 1: as many scientists in the public health worre then in
30:15
Speaker 1: companies like ours, have been saying for quite a while
30:18
Speaker 1: this winter was gonna be tough. And you know it's
30:21
Speaker 1: only early December. We already see no numbers increasing after Thanksgiving,
30:25
Speaker 1: Christmas is around the corner, and the New Year holiday
30:29
Speaker 1: and parties, and I think that we're gonna have very
30:32
Speaker 1: complicated January and February in the West like we're would
30:35
Speaker 1: have been China. Still too many people have not got
30:38
Speaker 1: their omicron specific booster. It's really sad because there's plenty
30:42
Speaker 1: of vaccines in US and Europe available in pharmacist, most
30:45
Speaker 1: people are not getting them and a lot of people
30:48
Speaker 1: are going to get hurt because of it. All right,
30:49
Speaker 1: Stefan Bancell, thank you so much for joining us. We
30:52
Speaker 1: really appreciate getting your time. Stefan Bancell, chief executive officer
30:55
Speaker 1: from Moderner. Was some really positive news coming out on
30:59
Speaker 1: melanoma and other answer treatments. We appreciate your time. Thank you.
31:05
Speaker 1: All right, let's bring in any Massa. She covers all
31:08
Speaker 1: this stuff. For Bloomberg News, and Barry Ridholtz is in
31:10
Speaker 1: studio as well, chairman of Redholts Wealth Management, and he's
31:14
Speaker 1: got some podcast thing that he does all the time.
31:16
Speaker 1: We've gotta like a huge Masters in Business and what
31:19
Speaker 1: do you think? What is the current sense of what's
31:23
Speaker 1: happening at f t X. Sam Bankman freed a lot
31:26
Speaker 1: of news in the last twenty four hours. So what's
31:28
Speaker 1: happened today is we've finally had regulators come in and
31:31
Speaker 1: bring charges against um SPF, and we've got now from
31:36
Speaker 1: the SEC and CFTC more detailed information, some of which
31:40
Speaker 1: was bubbling up and coming to light, but we really
31:43
Speaker 1: have the SEC's account of what was happening at f
31:45
Speaker 1: t X as well as the d o j's charges
31:47
Speaker 1: that have been brought against um SPF, and uh some
31:52
Speaker 1: of the details in there are pretty striking. You see
31:55
Speaker 1: the comingling of funds between f t X and Alameda.
31:59
Speaker 1: Basically from the outset f t X UM was allowing
32:02
Speaker 1: ALAM to to siphon its customers funds away to make
32:05
Speaker 1: risky bats and fuel political spending, personal lavish real estate
32:09
Speaker 1: spending on SBS account and really that customer money was
32:14
Speaker 1: just going straight into Alimy at his hands. So Barry
32:17
Speaker 1: when you see this, you know, and I don't know.
32:19
Speaker 1: To me, I just felt like I was witnessed. We
32:22
Speaker 1: are witnessing a new asset class being born. And I
32:25
Speaker 1: don't know what today's action means. The arrest of Sandbank,
32:29
Speaker 1: ben Freed, the you know, the indictments, the testimony in
32:33
Speaker 1: front of Congress, how do you put that in context
32:35
Speaker 1: for what appears to be an asset class trying to
32:38
Speaker 1: be created evolved? Yeah? It to me, this is very
32:43
Speaker 1: reminiscent of the MF Global debaccle. If you remember about
32:49
Speaker 1: a decade ago, they made a lot of risky bits
32:52
Speaker 1: and when the margin calls came due, they said, hey,
32:56
Speaker 1: clients have all this cass sending their accounts, let's use
32:59
Speaker 1: some of that, which, in case you're living under rock,
33:02
Speaker 1: is very much not allowed by anybody anywhere regardless. And
33:07
Speaker 1: so if you let something like that happen, you go
33:09
Speaker 1: to jail for life. Right, what happened with MF Global
33:12
Speaker 1: didn't appear that anybody ended up going to jail. Some
33:16
Speaker 1: people got banned, and I believe the vast majority of
33:20
Speaker 1: those borrowed assets were recovered. Um here it seems like
33:26
Speaker 1: the same sort of there's some money sending in clients accounts,
33:30
Speaker 1: and even though we were never given permission to borrow this,
33:33
Speaker 1: there's no margin, there's no rational basis for touching this cash.
33:37
Speaker 1: We're gonna take it because we need it. Uh. The
33:40
Speaker 1: question here is how much of that will be recovered?
33:44
Speaker 1: And and you know the early outlines up here that
33:48
Speaker 1: it's you know, uh, tens of billions of dollars that
33:52
Speaker 1: are missing. And how much of that is ever gonna
33:55
Speaker 1: be retraced is really the big question. It's the most
34:00
Speaker 1: fascinating thing about this is why when you look at
34:04
Speaker 1: ftfs in the Bahamas really not a U S jurisdiction
34:08
Speaker 1: and and not the normal sort of thing that the
34:12
Speaker 1: SEC or the Justice Department investigates. The vast majority of
34:17
Speaker 1: their assets were not American. It was other countries. And
34:21
Speaker 1: do we have any sense of what's next for Sam
34:24
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed. I saw some footage just from some sources
34:28
Speaker 1: of him, you know, in the in I guess the
34:30
Speaker 1: custody of the Bahaming authorities to we know what's next.
34:33
Speaker 1: So Sam was arrested last night in the Bahamas, and
34:37
Speaker 1: the next step would be extradition to the US it
34:42
Speaker 1: seems given the criminal charges against him, and uh, you know,
34:46
Speaker 1: we'll see where we go from there. Was the timing?
34:48
Speaker 1: Is the timing strike you as on I talked to
34:49
Speaker 1: Barry already and he said no, but yeah, because he
34:54
Speaker 1: gets like we were waiting for him to get arrested
34:56
Speaker 1: for weeks. He wasn't. He was going out doing tons
34:59
Speaker 1: of media interview use and having text chats with his
35:03
Speaker 1: friends at Fox and stuff. But then all of a
35:05
Speaker 1: sudden or Vice, either Box or Vice, I can't remember.
35:08
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, Um, you know, hours before he's
35:12
Speaker 1: going to testify in front of Congress, he's arrested, effectively muzzled.
35:16
Speaker 1: Um does that not strike you as at least curious timing?
35:22
Speaker 1: The timing is interesting. I don't have any authoritative info
35:26
Speaker 1: on why exactly that happened. Of course people have wondered why,
35:29
Speaker 1: but he certainly is out there on the record long
35:31
Speaker 1: before being muzzled with plenty of incriminating material. Alright, Any Massa,
35:37
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate that any Massa.
35:39
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Battery, Red Holtz Master's in Business Podcasts and
35:43
Speaker 1: Red Holts Wealth Management both joining us here round table
35:45
Speaker 1: and quickly on this crypto stuff. Thanks for listening to
35:52
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to
35:56
Speaker 1: interviews with Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you for her.
36:00
Speaker 1: I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller N
36:03
Speaker 1: seventy three, and I'm Fall Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at
36:06
Speaker 1: pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch us
36:09
Speaker 1: worldwide at Bloomberg Radio