Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / No, Mayo Should Not Be Put On Cheesesteaks (Ft. Rocky, Trading Places, and Billy Joel)

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No, Mayo Should Not Be Put On Cheesesteaks (Ft. Rocky, Trading Places, and Billy Joel) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid. Telling
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us to hush, dim our historical light. But darlings,
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we're the Harpies sharp and keen. Unveiling the
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truth behind the silver screen. History Harpies
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hear us roar. Through the ages we explore. Hi
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and welcome to History Harpies. I'm Lauren. And
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I'm Christine. And we are here today to talk,
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to do Hometown Episode 1. Hometown. This will
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be an episode that deals with one of our hometowns.
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We're going to do two of them, inspired by The
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Bachelor, where people go to the hometowns and
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visit and meet each other's families. Hometown
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date. eat each other's favorite foods and wine
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and things like that. My hometown is the great
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city of brotherly love, Philadelphia. And we
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are also broadening it a bit to think about tri
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-state area culture in general. But today we
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will be talking about all things Philly and a
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little bit of New York. And a little bit of New
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York. And we will not be putting any mayo. on
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cheese steaks. Oh my gosh. We will absolutely
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not be doing... I mean, I'm a vegetarian anyway,
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so... Right. And I thought of that, but then
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I thought, oh, maybe there's some tofu cheese
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steak that you eat, and that you would put mayo
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on it. That is so disgusting. Mayo is vomitous.
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I would just find that so appalling, and I cannot
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be friends with anyone who puts mayo on a cheese
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steak. Vile. Literally vile. And it's a complete
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blasphemy to the art of the cheese steak. Now,
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one... Some of you might think, well, as a person
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from Philly, what do you like on your cheesesteak?
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Or when we say cheesesteak, what do we mean?
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And I, I can answer this question really, really
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precisely. A real authentic Philly cheesesteak
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is that cheese and steak. Okay. Not cheese, not
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cheese whiz, even though some of the famous places
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put cheese whiz on their cheesesteaks, but it
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is cheese. usually some sort of mozzarella cheese
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and steak. Now, the invention of the pizza steak,
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which I always thought was a cheesesteak, is
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a cheesesteak with sauce. I'm sorry. Say that
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again. I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt you
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for a minute. A pizza steak. A pizza steak. And
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that is what I get. So when I order a cheesesteak,
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okay, I say I want a pizza steak, which is cheese,
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meat. and sauce. And then you can get fried onions,
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sweet peppers, mushrooms, other stuff too. But
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what kind of sauce? Oh, marinara. Oh, ice? Yeah.
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So when I was growing up and we always just said,
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oh, we're ordering pizza steaks, I thought those
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were cheese steaks. But then in reality, I did
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a little bit of research and realized that my
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family was actually not eating the authentic
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cheese steak, which does not have sauce. My husband
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doesn't eat it with sauce, but my kids do. So
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I'm actually an invert, okay, in this way, because
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my cheesesteaks have to have sauce. I had no
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idea. I mean, I had no idea that there was such
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a thing as a pizza steak. Yeah, a pizza steak.
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And I didn't actually know there's a sauce in
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a cheese steak. You can also say a cheese steak
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with sauce. Either one. Either one's gonna work.
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It's not gonna work here. You're not gonna know
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what you're talking about. But it will work anywhere
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in the tri -state area. Jersey, Philly, New York.
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They know what you mean when you say pizza steak
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or cheese steak with sauce. That is good to know.
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I have already, Lauren, learned something about
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Philly. The other thing is, okay, people from
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Philly do not put mustard on their soft pretzels.
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Okay. That's another thing. I mean, you can,
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but that's not keeping it old school. Okay. Again,
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I'm learning so much. Or toward melted cheese,
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for that matter. I mean, you don't put other
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things on a pretzel. You just eat it. Okay. But
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I do have to go back to cheese for a second with
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the cheesesteak. I'm sorry, you said cheesesteak
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cheese is mozzarella? Well, it could be mozzarella,
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it could be provolone, I mean there's lots of
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different kinds of cheese that go on cheesesteaks.
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Interesting. Okay? But we also get into the whole
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realm of hoagies, tuna, Italian, what's on them.
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The bread is huge. So you have Atlantic City
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rolls, which make for a really authentic hoagie.
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Okay, not a sub, a hoagie. I don't know the difference.
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Right, no. Subs are what people say here when
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they have just like a roll, you know, a long
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roll that you like put meat in. People call that
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a sub, or like a meatball sub. Yes. Which I do
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know of. Okay, but a hoagie is a hoagie. A hoagie
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is a sandwich with cold cuts. A hoagie has tuna
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in it. It's a hoagie. Okay. You know, we will,
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when we talk about my hometown, more broadly,
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like the state of Maine, we will be talking about
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sandwiches again. And so I'm going to hold off
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on making my side of the conversation right now.
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But this is, again, the difference between a
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sub and a hoagie is remained. And I always go,
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even here, like, you know, Publix makes a good
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hoagie. To me, they make the best version of
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a hoagie. And, of course, I have to say sub because
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they have no idea what I'm talking about when
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I say hoagie. But if I were to go home and say,
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you know, there's a place, Lee's Hoagies. That's
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where everyone gets their hoagies, right? Never
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call Lee's subs. It's ridiculous. I have never,
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until I moved out of Philly, I had never heard
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of the word sub being used to refer to a sandwich.
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Oh, no. No. Interesting. I mean, even I hadn't,
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and one does not use sub and hoagie in the state
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of Maine, I think at all. Well, as we will talk
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about next time. Never heard of it. As we will
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talk about next time. So how has your week been
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going? Oh my gosh. Well, I do want to, the first
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thing I want to say is that I am strangely excited
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that Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift are now engaged.
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Really? I think the ring is hideous. The ring
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is hideous. The ring is ugly. Ugly. You know,
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ugly. Ugly. It is like Carrie Bradshaw's first
6:08
engage her ring from being there. Oh, no. The
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gold band with that pear -shaped diamond. That
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is the first thing I thought of. So not a fan
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of the ring. No. I hate to say it, but it's true.
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She needs to trade that one in for a much, much
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better one. She needs Charlotte's Elizabeth Taylor
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Harry Winston ring. Absolutely. So I did want
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to say that. I did also want to point out that
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perhaps the most frustrating thing that has happened
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to me this week is As some of you may know, I'm
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a single parent and my one of my sons the other
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day, sitting down to a homemade nutritious hot
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meal that I had made for him and his brother,
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kind of looked at it and said, why do we always
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eat the same things? I want you to switch it
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up. At which point I said, trying not to throw
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a plate across the room, right? I said, Well,
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honey, you can always look in one of our 7 ,000
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cookbooks. You can pick out something. You can
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say, can we please have X next week? Again, you
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can look and see something that you want me to
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cook. Oh, I thought you were going to say he
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has to cook. No, no, I did say that too. I did
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say that too, because actually he's a very good
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cook. But I said at the very least, tell me something
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that you want me to cook or something you'd like.
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And he said, that's your job. No, he didn't.
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He didn't. He did. That's your job. In what century?
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In what decade? But I don't think, in fairness
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to my son, I don't think he meant it in a gendered
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way. He meant it in a mom way. He meant it in
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a mom way. And I even said, and I said, and then
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I'm going to stop this rant. That's okay. I said,
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any day, any dinner, when you are not eating
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either cold cereal or a peanut butter and jelly
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sandwich is a win for me. It's a victory. Yep.
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And that's the way everyone in the household
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needs to understand it. No cereal, no jelly.
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You are doing awesome. So anyway. They wouldn't
8:13
like living here. That's all I have to say. It's
8:17
every human for themselves. And now that there
8:20
are fewer humans inhabiting this house, it is
8:23
really every human for themselves. I mean, even
8:26
Penny is kind of... Feeding herself. Yeah, I
8:31
mean, she's looking around. It's rough. We're
8:34
the squirrels outside. It's rough. So I have
8:38
now two kids in college settling in today. is
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the first day of classes for one. Yesterday was
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the first classes for the other. They are still
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there. I mean, one has been there for a while,
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but the one who just started, he's there. He
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says he's living his best life. I'm very happy
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for him. And I hope he went to all his classes
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today. He said he went to his classes yesterday,
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but I will tell you. Again, we've talked about
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this before, and I'm also going to say I'm proud
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of myself because this is sort of the opposite
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of your dinner story. I did not use Life360 to
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make sure that my 18 -year -old went to his classes
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and then called him to verify, which apparently
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is a thing. I have heard that this is a thing.
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Yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing that should
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stop on the part of everybody who is doing it.
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Everyone involved. We have to say. Everyone involved.
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It's just, it's not... helpful. No. Not helpful.
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No. So I am proud of you. Yep. I certainly would
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have been surprised if you had done something
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like that. But you know what? I'm going to do
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the most fantastic segue right now. Okay. Because
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of your strong Philly girl. Yep. Independent
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spirit. Yep. That you're not hounding your kids,
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which reminds me of the city of Philadelphia.
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Yeah. So let's start talking about the city of
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Philadelphia and some of the stuff that we looked
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at for this week. Oh, and you know what? We have
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to point out that since it is our 10th episode.
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We are finally, we are actually talking about
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music today. We are. We are talking about music.
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Switching it up. We love music. Not only music,
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but the Kennedy Center of it all, right? Bringing
10:15
in the arts in a big way. Okay. But yes, we are
10:19
talking about music. We're going to start with
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the Billy Joel documentary, and so it goes. And
10:27
so it goes. hours of Billy Joel, pain, depression,
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substance abuse, and marriages, divorces, children,
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all of it. And I have to say, and I think between
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the two of us, I am the bigger Billy Joel. That
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is 100 % true. I love Billy Joel. I love everything
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about Billy Joel's music. I have been listening
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to it since it first came out and own all the
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albums and seen concerts and saw the Elton John,
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Billy Joel, Duel concert and just loved. I don't
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love all the songs, but I love Billy Joel. Okay.
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There's just a big exclamation point at the end
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of that. So going in, I was sort of thinking,
11:15
well, okay, like, what am I going to learn? I
11:18
know about this guy and whoa. I don't know this
11:22
guy at all. It was so interesting, depressing.
11:28
but also just so enlightening into his musical
11:31
process, but also his pain, but also his family
11:35
history, and so many elements of Billy Joel that
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I knew nothing about. And the interesting thing
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about this documentary, and I've talked to a
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lot of other sort of fellow Gen X friends who
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live and die by Billy Joel, is like, they didn't
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know any of this either. Like, this isn't lore,
11:51
right? This is sort of like stuff coming out
11:55
of nowhere. just really blown away by the talent
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in his family, the story about his father who
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abandoned the family, and then his quest to find
12:08
his father, but also his real difficulty in expressing
12:14
himself and his difficulty in these relationships
12:18
and the way that music was this incredibly important
12:22
outlet for him to say, all the things, both in
12:29
the kind of granular level, but also in the kind
12:33
of macro level, meaning of life level. There's
12:36
so much to it. Well, and this was one of the,
12:40
to me, things that is so sad, really profoundly
12:44
sad about that documentary is, and of course
12:47
I completely agree with you, this is one of the
12:49
most important components of the documentary,
12:51
that this is someone who has only ever been able
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to express himself through music, as you say,
12:56
on the granular level, as well as sort of a metal
12:59
level. But then we have that moment where later
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in his life, he loses the ability to write songs.
13:07
And one of the things that I kept thinking up
13:09
with that, and the whole thing is a tragedy,
13:11
right? I mean, amid like the hit singles and
13:14
the sellout concerts. It is a tragic, tragic
13:17
story from start to finish. There's no redemption.
13:20
There's no sense of like, oh my God, he got over
13:21
the hump. You know, he went to Betty Ford. It
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was all great after that. It ends on a really
13:26
sad, tragic note. But what I thought was really
13:29
painful was exactly that. Okay, this person who
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has only been able to express his emotions through
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song, but then... he can't write songs anymore,
13:39
right? And how awful is that? That the one emotional
13:42
outlet that he has is gone. And I think one of
13:44
the saddest things, although it's from an earlier
13:46
part of his life, is that he had a stepson in
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the 1970s. And when Billy Joel and his first
13:53
wife, Elizabeth Weber, break up, the stepson
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says in the documentary, There was no closure.
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Billy, in effect, is just gone. And this man
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that he had lived with as a stepfather for years,
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and that in effect, Billy Joel ends up doing
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to this child the same thing that his father
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had done to him. Because there's no sense later
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in the documentary that they have any contact,
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even though the stepson is a talking head in
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the documentary. Yeah, and I think the documentary
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also, even with Alexa, that he has contact with
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Alexa, but it's not clear how present he was
14:27
in her life. Yes. And that he, of course, wrote
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songs about her. She's also in the documentary.
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She's talking about his influence on her and
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also her different perspectives on the struggles
14:39
that he's gone through. But you don't get this
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sense of present parenting. I agree. In the way
14:44
that he talks about his... Current batch. His
14:47
current batch. Yes. Okay. Very young, very young
14:50
children. And he's like, now I'm ready to be
14:53
a dad. Even though it's, what, 75? Right, now
14:56
I'm like, now I'm in it, now I'm okay. And you
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do, at least again, from the footage, from seeing
15:01
them at all the concerts, from them in the Billy
15:04
Joel t -shirts, and they're young, right? And
15:07
Alexa is probably in her, what, in her 30s by
15:10
now, if maybe she's older. Yeah, I mean, what,
15:14
45, 84? But you do not get the sense, as much
15:16
as he cared about her, loved her, he wrote that
15:19
classical piece about separation from her. So
15:23
it seemed at least in the documentary that his
15:26
relationship with her is one of kind of coming
15:29
and going rather than one of him really trying
15:32
to be there for her even after he and Christie
15:36
Brinkley divorced. Yes, and I agree with you.
15:40
There is not a sense of presence. There is a
15:43
sense that he is constantly touring, right, in
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part, because this is how he responds to his
15:47
own emotional inability, that constantly being
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on the road and having this kind of camaraderie,
15:53
right, with his guy friends that we see. I agree.
15:55
And so I do think one of the questions, then,
15:57
of the documentary, because it does end in such
16:00
a sad note, that, well, what is his parenting
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going to look like with these two younger kids?
16:04
Because he is what? 75 right and God knowing
16:07
he'll live for a long time. Yeah, but it's still
16:10
not Convincing right even though the documentary
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he himself is saying I'm great. I'm a present
16:15
father now. This is so fantastic I'm trying to
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learn I'm trying to learn from my mistakes and
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I My my own father after he passed away and I've
16:23
been able to sort of process some of this stuff
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It's not convincing at all to me and I think
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it's one of the many things And we talked about
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this the other day outside of the pod It's one
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of the many reasons why at the end of the documentary
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you just want to cry Yes, and even the relationship
16:38
with his half -brother where you see and he's
16:42
this incredible composer They have obviously
16:44
there's a very very powerful family DNA absolutely
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music for musical genius and you see him pictures
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of him with his half brother and again there's
16:55
a relationship but it doesn't seem like one that
16:58
has been so formative and lasting that it has
17:03
shaped his outlook or shaped his ability to make
17:06
connections with family. The one person that
17:11
it really seems like he had a strong connection
17:13
with was his mother. And again, he does talk
17:17
about when his mother died and he does talk about
17:19
the early influences of his mother and thinking
17:21
about her and how she raised him and his sister
17:23
who appears in the documentary. But again, it's
17:28
somebody who is both completely alone in the
17:31
world and at times or many times doesn't want
17:35
to be Billy Joel but then has to be Billy Joel
17:38
because he doesn't know how to live outside that
17:41
personae or he's very very lonely or he turns
17:44
to alcohol when he's not in the Billy Joel personae
17:48
as much as he might test that personae. Yes,
17:50
and he returns to it, but then we of course we
17:52
also have his mother herself as an alcoholic
17:56
right right right the incredibly troubled childhood
17:59
that he has that he and his sister they never
18:01
know what she's going to write like if she's
18:03
going to be drunk or sober and obviously one
18:06
of the things that It seems didn't happen in
18:08
that documentary is the sense of really clearly
18:12
expressing that he has returned to both models
18:15
of his parents. Right. The absent father and
18:18
the alcoholic mother. And of course, it's screamingly
18:21
clear in the documentary. And one of the things
18:23
that I feel like I missed. is that that sense
18:27
of an adult relationship that he had with her.
18:29
There's so much focus on the father, right? Tracking
18:32
him down, going to Vienna, meeting the half -brother,
18:35
the whole second family, and all of these very
18:37
tragic pictures of him with his father, where
18:39
there's no really any kind of physical closeness.
18:42
But I really wanted to hear more about the mother,
18:45
right? We see one image of her, what sort of
18:47
dancing when Billy Joel is an adult together,
18:49
how she was like for the party. And but I was
18:52
curious about that. And I really wanted to hear
18:54
more. He's just such a damaged person. He is.
18:57
But he does talk about the passion that both
19:01
his parents had for music and that his mother
19:03
made sure that he had these music lessons and
19:06
that he was always there and that he did practice
19:11
and that he was really schooled in classical
19:13
music and that his parents really instilled that
19:16
in him. And so. What's interesting to me is that
19:22
it goes from this child who is, again, schooled
19:28
in classical music, in Tin Pan Alley, in Broadway,
19:31
and a lot of the things that his parents loved
19:33
came then to become part of this metal band for
19:38
a while. But he never, as much as he saw himself
19:43
as sort of this outsider, once his father left
19:46
they were... really poor. He's from this Hicksville,
19:50
Long Island town, right? He sees himself as an
19:53
outsider, but he never embraces punk. He never
19:56
embraces any kind of these like super rebellious
19:59
genres. He, again, is unsettled in his musical
20:03
identity until he moves into this kind of balladeer
20:09
personality or balladeer genre. Okay, it's really
20:13
interesting that you say that because I am not
20:16
a Billy Joel fan. Right. And I mean, like anyone
20:19
else, I can sing every word to Piano Man. Sure.
20:21
Who can't? Who can't? Sure, sure. But, and there
20:23
are, I would say, a couple of individual songs,
20:25
so I was like, oh, I like that. But my, what
20:27
has always driven me crazy about him is precisely
20:31
that it is so clear that he's coming from that
20:34
Tin Pan Alley background, that classic songwriter
20:38
mode, the classical piano training. But then
20:41
I always felt, but wait a minute, then he's kind
20:43
of receding into this persona of 1950s greaser,
20:47
rock and roll rebel, juvenile delinquent, which
20:50
is obviously something that he expresses very
20:52
clearly in a lot of songs and a lot of videos.
20:55
This is fundamentally what Uptown Girl is about.
20:57
That whole album is exactly that. pop album is
21:00
about that. But I would even say also, you know,
21:03
I think of something like You May Be Right, you
21:05
know, from what? Glass Houses, much earlier.
21:08
And that's still the persona, right? Again, the
21:12
dangerous guy. And I think what was so kind of
21:14
interesting to me from the documentary is to,
21:16
in effect, kind of give him a little bit of that
21:19
street cred. Well, I was like, oh, wait a minute.
21:21
So he did have, again, he's very difficult. But
21:25
even if I can concede that, I agree precisely
21:31
with what you're saying in terms of not embracing
21:33
rebellious musical genres. And so that to me
21:37
is this huge discordance in his career that I
21:41
can never mix. Even something like, again, You
21:44
May Be Right, that is intending to be a rock
21:47
and roll song. But not even thinking about the
21:49
later doo -wop stuff that he doesn't know. But
21:51
like The Entertainer, which is probably one of
21:54
his most rebellious songs, right? Where he's
21:56
just like, fuck you, industry. But musically,
21:59
it doesn't sound like it. But I think... That's
22:03
what makes it subversive, is that it's, you know,
22:06
it's wrapped in this neat Frank Sinatra package
22:10
that he's very intentionally trying to say, this
22:13
is me, this is Billy Joel. And of course, this
22:16
is why people didn't take him seriously as a
22:18
real, quote, rock artist, because his music doesn't
22:21
sound rock and roll -y, folky. you know, all
22:25
of that. It's not part of the rockest canon,
22:28
but it is part of the rock ethos. And he would
22:33
say it is, and I believe it is too, because of
22:37
the rebellious impulses. I mean, again, you think
22:40
of songs like Angry Young Man, and you think
22:42
of, again, you may be right. All kinds of songs
22:46
we get into, Captain Jack, right? These are all
22:48
about... these people he went to high school
22:51
with or lonely people or outsiders and that sort
22:55
of thing. And that's Summer Highland Falls. All
22:58
of those songs are about, again, a lot of the
23:01
same people that Springsteen captures in a lot
23:05
of his albums. But I guess I have difficulty
23:08
making that direct connection between either
23:13
lyrical subjects, appealing back to that particular
23:16
past, appealing to the working class, appealing
23:18
to hardship, and again how that translates into
23:22
the music itself, right? Because of course you
23:24
can say every single Frank Sinatra song, right?
23:27
Any kind of like it's 3 a .m. and I'm drunk,
23:29
I'm the last guy in the bar, right? Those aren't
23:32
rebellious songs, right? They're not rock songs.
23:34
And I think Even he's so Billy Joel is so self
23:38
-conscious about it and that has always really
23:41
gotten it for me If you are going to be say a
23:44
punk if you were going to be again a quote -unquote
23:47
real, you know, I'm doing my little air quotes
23:49
here. You've been a real rocker then you aren't
23:51
self -conscious about it And of course the whole
23:53
point of it's still rock and roll to me is to
23:55
criticize right punk and other sort of fashion
23:58
movements, right? That's right. And so to me
24:00
he that very sense of resistance, that very sense
24:05
of, again, that I'm not part of the crowd. And
24:07
it's easy to understand, having watched the documentary,
24:10
why he didn't feel like he was part of the crowd.
24:13
But the fact that he so clearly cares about it.
24:16
He does care about it. That's why you are not,
24:18
in fact, a rock. artist. Okay. But he does care
24:23
about it and it's still rock and roll to me as
24:25
a response to critics, right? I guess. And the
24:28
Rolling Stone guys or whoever, right? Which pisses
24:32
him off. And the documentary even says he can't
24:34
stop reading. He can't stop reading these articles
24:36
that are saying he's saccharine or just a total
24:41
mid, okay? Very good. Right? But in fact, he
24:46
cannot say, fuck you, I don't really care. And
24:49
I'm just gonna do my thing. And I'm an artist.
24:52
And artists create art. He never says that. And
24:56
he fights with it and he wrestles with it. But
25:00
in the end, he continues to write these songs
25:03
that are cut from the same cloth. And some of
25:07
them more so than others. And again, when he
25:11
talks about just the way you are, right? Which
25:16
is so funny because, of course, that's the song
25:19
that most people know. They danced to it at their
25:21
weddings. He says he hated it. And he says he
25:24
didn't want it to come out as a single. But it
25:27
was it was Elizabeth Weber's idea. And of course,
25:31
it became this huge hit. And it sounds, again,
25:34
like elevator music. It absolutely does. And
25:38
nonetheless, again, it's the song. Paul McCartney
25:42
said, you know, I wish I had written that song.
25:45
And of course, that is a strike against it, right?
25:49
Because you do it just the way you are. I utterly
25:51
loathe that song, right? The whole 1970s kind
25:54
of saxophone solo thing going on, right? It's
25:56
so trickly. And so when in the documentary, Paul
25:59
McCartney shows up and says, This is the song
26:03
that I wish I had written that makes perfect
26:05
sense to me. Of course, Paul McCartney, someone
26:07
so addicted, right, to the trickly over the top
26:11
sort of smushy love song. And I was like, Billy
26:14
Joel, someone just should have exited that part
26:17
out. But I do. That's what I think is so great
26:21
about the documentary, because I feel like at
26:23
one in the same time, it certainly made me sympathize
26:25
with him more. Sure. And the last thing maybe
26:28
we should talk about about the documentary. before
26:31
we talk about our other things is, again, this
26:33
issue of class and how it shows up in this music,
26:37
in the documentary. Again, obviously we've already
26:39
mentioned Uptown Girl, which is completely in
26:42
terms of the video, in terms of the lyrics. Guys
26:45
in the gas station. Guys in the gas station,
26:48
working class, simple guys. But of course we
26:50
also have that as we hear about in the documentary
26:53
in something like Piano Man, which is about working
26:55
people and... him having this gig and he had
26:59
to perform under a different name because he
27:02
had these copyright issues and there's a legal
27:05
battle going on. And so he's working and Elizabeth
27:08
is working in the same restaurant. She's a waitress.
27:12
And yes, and a lot of these songs. And then we
27:14
have Allentown and then we have Good Night, Tygon.
27:18
And all of these songs are supposed to appeal
27:20
to working class sympathies and to reflect Billy
27:24
Joel's own working -class identity. You know,
27:27
kind of guy from the wrong side of the tracks,
27:30
guy who really never fit in, guy who hangs around
27:33
with a bunch of his bandmates. And again, in
27:37
the very beginning, before he starts to date
27:40
Elizabeth Leverman, he's just like hanging out
27:42
with them as a couple, right? And they're living
27:44
together and they're just sort of, they're not
27:47
really a throuple, but they're whatever they
27:52
are. But he's definitely - He's just having an
27:54
affair with his best friend's wife. He's on the
27:56
out. But that's, I mean, throughout the whole
27:59
documentary, he seems to be on the out. And he
28:03
can, and he can come in and - There are moments
28:06
when he's being celebrated, and when there are
28:08
crowds, and when there are people who love him,
28:10
and also people trying to help him, but he's
28:13
constantly pushing them away. Whether it's Brinkley,
28:17
whether it's the wife, Katie Lee, and again,
28:20
he was angry at her for sending him to the Betty
28:23
Ford Clinic, and he cannot embrace love, he cannot
28:28
embrace, he can embrace stadium fans, and that's
28:32
clear. Because they're distant. And I think that
28:34
what is also so interesting about him in terms
28:36
of class is that he's obviously exceptionally
28:39
good at masking. He's also, and I never would
28:43
have thought of this before the documentary,
28:44
he's exceptionally good at code switching. What
28:48
I want to say is that when he's doing his little
28:51
working class persona and then you watch the
28:53
documentary, it's like, wait a minute. I was
28:56
right all the time. He's actually a poser because
28:59
no real working class person is going to have
29:02
a father who moves to... fucking Vienna, and
29:06
whose half -brother is an orchestra conductor,
29:09
right? Don't give me that shit, right? You're
29:11
not a real working -class person, but of course.
29:14
But he is. But that's so fascinating. His life
29:17
was that. His life was that. But that's why I
29:20
do think he's this genius, in some ways, code
29:23
switcher, right? But at the same time, you can
29:26
see that it also kind of drives him crazy and
29:28
has led to a lot of... criticism of his music
29:31
by me, including by me, in the sense of saying,
29:35
okay, now I'm doing the piano pieces. Now I'm
29:37
doing the rock thing. And I think it's much nicer.
29:41
to say oh no no wait a minute you know he's so
29:44
fragmented in terms of where he understands himself
29:47
in the world again particularly in terms of of
29:49
social class code switching that this is kind
29:51
of what we end up with and i just i i thought
29:54
that was again such a rich for someone who is
29:56
not a fan i thought that was a really rich thing
29:58
to think about it is it's also that the documentary
30:01
ends with this thing well we can take Billy Joel
30:05
seriously now in the last 10 years when he had
30:08
his Madison Square Garden residency because the
30:11
songs have lasted so long and in fact they sound
30:14
better when played by an older man than by a
30:18
younger man which is a really interesting idea.
30:21
Yeah, I agree. And again, seeing him playing
30:23
New York State of Mind as an older man. And again,
30:26
you think about the Ray Charles influences in
30:29
there. You think about, again, older crooners
30:33
singing a sort of Bing Crosby, right? New York
30:35
State of Mind. At a club in 1945. Right. Thinking
30:38
about harkening back to those... a renaissance
30:41
man, this all comes out in an older Billie Joel.
30:45
And it's sort of like thinking about, again,
30:47
Old Soul and Billie Joel being somebody who really
30:51
did cherish a lot of older genres, but just didn't
30:55
really own up to them and said, well, they do
30:57
rock and roll. But actually, I really am more
31:01
Frank Sinatra, or I really am more of a bluesman
31:04
like Ray Charles, or I really am... a balladeer
31:08
like Tony Bennett or somebody like that. And
31:10
what's so interesting, again, to me about a lot
31:13
of the famous talking heads is they're all really
31:16
jealous of his melodies, right? They're all like,
31:18
he has the best melodies, he has this incredible
31:21
ability storyteller, and mine aren't as good
31:25
as his. And again, I mean, it's interesting to
31:28
see these different figures really talking about
31:31
his melodic abilities, which I think anyone which
31:36
Most people, and it's probably a lot of people
31:38
who know one Billy Joel song, probably know all
31:41
of the words, even if it's just piano man, right?
31:45
Because these melodies are so powerful. Sometimes
31:48
they're annoyingly powerful and you can't get
31:50
them out of your head, but we all know a Billy
31:53
Joel song. Yes. I think. I think so too. And
31:57
I will say... and this is the last thing I will
31:59
say about Billy Joel, is that I have had the
32:02
wonderful experience, and perhaps you have too,
32:05
of being in a karaoke bar where someone chose
32:08
Piano Man. And of course, every single person
32:12
in the bar, including me, sang along every single
32:15
word. Now, some people might wonder why in a
32:20
Philly hometown episode we are talking about
32:23
Billy Joel. I will just say, and I will say this,
32:25
okay, Billy Joel is tri -state area. Billy Joel
32:31
is meaningful. I would argue in the same way
32:37
people in Philly to people from Jersey. It's
32:40
not Bruce. Bruce is definitively New Jersey.
32:45
But Billy Joel has a special place to Philadelphians
32:48
as much as he does to people in New York and
32:52
Long Island where he came from and all of that.
32:54
But Philly people love Billy Joel. And because
32:59
again, many of the themes that we're going to
33:02
talk about Rocky and also in trading. places
33:04
there is that up -and -coming grit fighting for
33:11
it. Everything's against you. Trying not to be
33:14
a bum. That's Billy Joel and that's Philly and
33:20
so Billy Joel is he is definitely part of the
33:24
brotherly love and again you would never be able
33:29
to get a ticket last minute for a Billy Joel
33:31
concert in Philadelphia, anywhere. Now, then,
33:35
ever. You know, this is actually, this is really
33:38
the last thing I want to say about Billy Joel
33:39
before we move on. One of the things that I thought
33:42
really does sum up what you just said is that
33:45
when we see him, right, on his boat, Alexa, obviously
33:49
named after his daughter, that it's just this,
33:53
like, Crappy little trawler, right? Like this
33:55
is a man who can have the most fantastic Jeff
33:58
Bezos style yacht. He can be succession plus.
34:00
The whole thing. Logan Roy. He's on his piece
34:04
of crap little trawler right out there driving
34:07
it himself. And I was like, this is it, right?
34:10
This is your sort of like dream boat. And I was
34:13
like, I... You can just see this is exactly the
34:16
way that he would be if he had never become a
34:18
musician. But one would argue that, again, that
34:21
house he's in that's under construction. I mean,
34:23
again, I've talked to people who have been at
34:26
Sag Harbor more recently. We are not seeing an
34:28
accurate representation of where Billy Joel,
34:31
I'm sure many, many homes that Billy Joel owns
34:34
and what is life. looks like. OK. And again,
34:38
because he is a code switcher and he is occupying
34:41
all of these class statuses at the same time.
34:44
He's not going to show us all the stuff. Oh,
34:46
wait. You know, maybe because we just mentioned
34:48
code switching. Is it time to talk then about
34:51
trading places and sort of people occupying different
34:55
social class statuses? I think that is a great
35:01
segue. What what did you think of training places?
35:06
So I as I told you I I was under the impression
35:10
that I hadn't seen it before I didn't have a
35:12
strong memory of having watched it and then when
35:14
I started watching it I was like, oh, yeah, I
35:16
get it and What I think the first thing I want
35:20
to say about trading places is it is so clearly
35:24
to me a sequel to Animal House. And I know that
35:29
sounds strange. I know that sounds weird, but
35:32
I think, you know, obviously Trading Places is
35:34
made during the generational run, as my son would
35:37
say, of John Landis as a director when he is
35:40
simply knocking out all of these incredibly memorable
35:42
films. And obviously Animal House has sort of
35:48
cast a really unpleasant eye on the sort of super
35:50
waspy frat guys, right? The rich guys who are
35:53
at the college. And I was like, oh, yes. And
35:56
this, of course, is also the social class that
35:58
we're seeing in trading places at the Duke's
36:00
financial institution. Duke and Duke. Duke and
36:03
Duke. Forties, broker. Come on, whatever. Pig
36:06
bellies or whatever it is. Oh, frozen orange
36:08
juice, right? And so that was interesting to
36:11
think about sort of this continuation of that
36:14
discussion of class, although with less beer,
36:15
of course, than an animal house. OK. So that
36:18
was my first hot take on trading places. That
36:21
is an interesting take on trading. So Trading
36:24
Places starring the fabulous Dan Aykroyd and
36:28
Eddie Murphy argued, I would say, at the pinnacle
36:32
of their funniness, their greatness, both of
36:37
them with careers that are beginning and their
36:41
stints on SNL and then many, many films to come.
36:45
But this is... those two actors at their greatest.
36:51
And having great chemistry. Great chemistry.
36:54
And the supporting cast with Jamie Lee Curtis
36:58
and Ralph Bellamy and Don Amici and again, all
37:02
the other even smaller roles that are in the
37:06
film. Everyone is on point. And again, a lot
37:12
of people ask me, especially my students, because
37:14
I'd say them, please watch to tell them, please.
37:16
watch Trading Places because it is so funny.
37:19
And they say, well, that's an old movie. And
37:22
again, the premise of our podcast, right? The
37:24
premise of our podcast. In 2025, Trading Places
37:28
holds up. It does. As I would put it against
37:32
any of what someone would think to be the funniest
37:35
thing that exists right now, because it is just
37:39
so spot on. The camera work is spot on. The acting
37:44
is spot on. in maybe less than two hours, but
37:48
two hours, no, more than two hours. It tells
37:52
a story and it shows us who these characters
37:56
are. And it also has this comedic timing to it
38:03
that is so brilliant that allows you to both
38:06
have a lot of empathy for these people, but also
38:09
both to laugh at them and to laugh with them.
38:12
And of course, the plot. means that both of our
38:16
characters need to do the opposite. So in case
38:20
anyone has not seen Trading Places, these two
38:22
older men who are very waspy older men who are
38:26
running this financial institution, Duke and
38:28
Duke, they make a pretty terrible bet. that is
38:30
all about nature and nurture, environment, and
38:34
basically what someone is made of. And so we
38:36
have Billy Ray Valentine, who is what? A cow
38:38
corn artist. Played by Eddie Murphy, who is begging
38:43
for money out in a park. We have, on the other
38:46
hand, Dan Aykroyd's character, Lewis Winthorne,
38:51
who is this, again, sort of very waspy, sort
38:53
of young employee of this firm. Harvard educated.
38:56
The whole thing belongs to the club. Surrounded
38:57
by the finals club. His fiance is this super
39:01
kind of lost princess and in effect the Duke
39:04
brothers bet that they can turn each of those
39:07
into the other person. That Billy Ray can become
39:10
the superstar financier who's belonging to the
39:12
private club and that Dan Aykroyd will turn to
39:15
a life of crime if he is deprived of all of his
39:18
benefits. And so we do have again both characters,
39:20
as I said a second ago, have to in effect play
39:23
the opposite kind of person. Dan Aykroyd is both
39:26
very waspy and rich at the beginning and then
39:28
And we have to see him at points of degradation
39:30
and the opposite happens with Eddie Murphy. Yes,
39:33
yes. And so what's so great about it is both
39:37
seeing these different characters in their unnatural
39:43
habitats, right? Or evolving to be the people
39:46
that they are, right? But also a lot of, especially
39:50
on the Eddie Murphy side, the way that he is
39:52
treated by the Duke, who are racist. Super racist.
39:57
I mean, their understandings of anything beyond
40:00
their own world is just so flagrantly repellent,
40:04
right? But he is so funny in absorbing this world
40:09
and in also proving them wrong. But also in the
40:16
way that he communicates with people and again,
40:20
the way that he sort of never loses the essence
40:22
of Eddie Murphy, right? He doesn't become a different
40:25
person because he is living in this, you know,
40:29
fancy house with a butler and all of that. And
40:32
at the same time, Dan Aykroyd watching him living
40:36
with Jamie Lee Curtis with the black eye. And
40:39
again, my favorite scene of all of Trading Places
40:42
is when Dan Aykroyd dresses up as Dan Aykroyd
40:45
and puts the salmon in his beard and then eats
40:49
it on the bus. It is the grossest thing. But
40:53
it is so funny. And whoever would have thought
40:57
of that, right? This drunk old Santa laying there
41:01
and eating salmon out of your fake beard is the
41:05
funniest thing. So in the end, Billy Ray Valentine
41:11
and Lewis Winthrop realize that this is a bet
41:15
and they come together and they find a way to
41:21
triumph over the dukes. And so, and they not
41:23
only then impoverish the Dukes, but what is also
41:25
really interesting, of course, they end up in
41:28
the same place socially, right? But then also
41:31
in terms of kind of, I don't know, how do I want
41:33
to describe it? Dan Aykroyd obviously ends up
41:36
with the hooker with the heart of gold, right?
41:38
Jamie Lee Curtis' character. We have exact hookers
41:42
in all of our podcasts. We cannot get away. Trading
41:46
Places was chosen because it was a failure. It
41:48
was! because it was a sex worker film. No, no,
41:51
no. Hollywood just loves its sex workers. So
41:53
again, but she's clearly not a sex worker anymore
41:55
at the end of the movie because she's left and
41:58
her phone is way nicer than Billy Joel's. It
42:00
is way nicer than Billy Joel's. But we're also
42:03
told explicitly that she is only a temporary
42:06
sex worker, that she's saving her money so she
42:09
can go and do something else. And then we have
42:12
this random girlfriend of Billy Ray that we've
42:13
never even seen before who never see her again.
42:16
And also Coleman has a girlfriend. And Coleman
42:17
has a girlfriend. The butler. A much younger
42:19
girlfriend. And so I do love that. that they
42:23
do end up kind of in the same place socially.
42:25
Not only because they have money now, both of
42:27
them, but because Dan Aykroyd has kind of like
42:30
chilled out a little bit, right? Billy Ray is
42:33
no longer a con man, right? He's wearing his
42:35
nice little sweater at the end on the beach.
42:38
Looking good, Billy Ray! I'm feeling good! I
42:41
have to say, you know, one thing that I really
42:43
am kind of sad about about younger generations,
42:47
and where I think that our generation, Generation
42:49
X, was so lucky. to be able to watch a young
42:54
Eddie Murphy while it was, even when he was on
42:57
SNL, while it was happening. And I don't think,
43:01
it is so hard to express how you were seeing
43:07
a star. So brilliant. And to think about it now,
43:12
what, he was like 20, 21 when he was on SNL?
43:14
So brilliant, so charismatic, so amazing. Right.
43:19
And so I think that - And the stand -up, I mean,
43:21
that everyone saw Raw, right? That everybody
43:23
was watching these HBO stand -up shows and just
43:27
all of it. Right. And everything he did was funny.
43:31
Everything. I saw him on that tour, by the way,
43:33
the rock that became Raw. Oh, wow. Portland,
43:36
Maine. Oh, my God. I saw a segue between. There's
43:40
a segue. There's a segue. Yeah, it's just it's
43:42
just amazing. And one thing so just to talk about
43:45
the Philly of it is that the thing about trading
43:48
places, which I love, is that it makes such fantastic
43:52
use of. the Philly landscape. You see Independence
43:57
Hall, you see all these different parts of Philadelphia,
44:03
right? A lot of North Broad Street, you see the
44:05
Union Club, we're Duke and Duke right near City
44:10
Hall. You see a lot of the Philly landscape,
44:14
and then of course where Jamie Lee Curtis is
44:16
living, you see those parts of it, but there's
44:19
very much a Philly vibe, you see the different
44:24
shots of the art museum and the Schuylkill, and
44:26
you definitely know you're there. And what's
44:30
interesting in terms of class, of course, is
44:32
that Philadelphia is a very complicated city.
44:35
And of course, you do have the Dan Aykwards of
44:38
the world and the Todd's and the barbershop quartet,
44:43
you know, at places like the Philadelphia Racquet
44:47
Club, right? Those places exist. And then, of
44:50
course, the inequality and the folks like the
44:53
Eddie Murphy in the very beginning. And it does
44:56
a really good job of showing a lot of different
45:00
sides of Philadelphia while also, I think, not
45:04
succumbing to cliché because of the vehicle of
45:09
the plot, right? So do you think that the movie
45:14
would be the same kind of thing or be as effective
45:16
if it weren't a Philadelphia movie? No. No, no.
45:20
I think it has to be a Philly movie. In part,
45:27
because not just of where it takes place, but
45:29
there's the trip to DC, there's the trip to the
45:32
stock exchange. I think if it took place in New
45:35
York, it wouldn't have the same vibe. I agree.
45:38
And I also think that the Eddie Murphy character,
45:41
and again, the... trajectory of what he's doing
45:47
and it's it's a it's a philly vibe. Right? It's
45:52
a, so I'm fighting for it, and I'm hustling for
45:55
it. And he's still a hustler by the end of it.
45:57
Yeah, absolutely. But there's very much this
46:00
sense that they are part of the city. And the
46:03
Dukes, the other thing is, is that the Duke house
46:05
in the suburbs, and I believe it's somewhere
46:07
in Ardmore where that house is filmed, there's
46:10
very much this sense of suburb, city, and then
46:14
again, taking the train to very close other cities,
46:18
whether it's DC, for B. and that shenanigans,
46:23
or again to the stock exchange at the very end.
46:27
Because the other thing that makes it important
46:29
is that if the Dukes were located in New York
46:32
where the stock exchange is, that would be a
46:35
different story than if they were located in
46:37
Philadelphia where commodities exchange is certainly
46:40
part of the DNA of Philly, but it's not the same
46:44
as New York. And I think it's important that
46:47
it's there. Well, and you do have this really
46:50
fantastic moment when Billy Ray and Lewis go
46:53
to New York. Billy Ray. very sadly for us, looks
46:58
up at the World Trade Center. And of course,
47:00
I hate and love seeing the World Trade Center
47:03
in our sort of pre -2001 media. But Billy Ray
47:07
himself, he clearly has not been to New York
47:10
before, at least this part of New York. He hasn't
47:12
been to downtown. And so the sense of, he's sort
47:14
of looking up of like, oh, this really is this
47:17
kind of center of the financial world. And so
47:19
the sense of how far he has gone, not in some
47:22
sort of like, I don't know, not in some sort
47:25
of... of like, I don't know, what am I thinking
47:27
of? Like rags to riches way. Like this is, I
47:31
am making things happen. Well, also there's a
47:33
difference between what he was doing with the
47:34
Dukes and in the very beginning when they explained,
47:36
we have oranges, we have pork belly. It's like
47:39
you'd find any bacon, lettuce, tomatoes. Then
47:42
he goes from that scale to then, oh my gosh,
47:46
this is traded on the biggest floor in the world
47:50
at the stock exchange. And now I'm like the,
47:53
Big show. Yes. And then two of the two of them
47:56
are going to manipulate that. Yes. Right. They
47:58
are going to sort of bend it to their will. So
48:01
I make that argument that the plot of the film,
48:04
it lends itself to a city other than New York.
48:10
And that Philadelphia also, because of the combination
48:16
of the grit, the history, and then, you know,
48:19
the different shots of different statues and
48:23
different great white men. That's all meant to
48:26
position the Dan Ackward character, but also
48:29
the narrative of sort of, again, Rex Rich's growth,
48:34
independence. I mean, all of these themes are
48:36
kind of, if you really want to read into it,
48:39
I think they're all there. And it shows how both
48:42
of these men become both independent of the dukes,
48:45
right, but also of their former selves in different
48:49
ways. And it is also interesting that Dan Aykroyd
48:52
himself, right, so we might look at him as being
48:54
just a junior version of the Dukes, but of course
48:57
he is just as much a pawn. Right. And of course
49:01
one of the very funny moments, but also sad in
49:04
some ways, is that when he learns that his entire
49:06
life has been destroyed for a dollar, that this
49:09
is the amount of the bet that the brothers have
49:10
made, and that this is how cavalier they are
49:13
with other people's lives, this sort of very
49:15
ingrained... sort of old money, waspy kind of
49:19
cluster, that they are willing to just destroy
49:21
people's lives. Now I do have one question, and
49:24
it may be a hole in the film, but I'm thinking
49:26
about it. Yes. But I want to know what you think.
49:29
OK. OK. So when Coleman first pretends like he
49:34
does not know who Dan Aykroyd is, because of
49:36
course the Dukes are paying him, why does Coleman
49:39
then allow Dan Aykroyd to come back? Why doesn't
49:45
he follow the same logic that he is still being
49:48
paid to pretend that the Billy Wade Valentine
49:52
character is on top? They have not agreed to
49:55
switch them back yet. Why does he let them back?
49:57
So my understanding of that was that For whatever
50:01
reason, he has been himself softened by his encounters
50:06
and time spent with Billy Ray. Billy Ray is this
50:09
tool for humanizing people, right? And one might,
50:12
I suppose, complain about that in terms of the
50:14
movie, right? That he almost is getting into,
50:17
I don't want to say sort of like, quote -unquote,
50:18
magical. But the idea, that particular trope.
50:22
And he's not bad. Right, but I think we are supposed
50:25
to think that the longer the time has gone on,
50:27
he has spent more time with Billy Ray, that Billy
50:30
Ray himself, he knows that Billy Ray is an object
50:34
of the bet as well. Presumably he knows that
50:37
Billy Ray is also going to be thrown in the trash
50:40
can, that it's not that this is changing Billy
50:42
Ray's life forever. And he's aware of that, and
50:45
so he feels guilty then about both of them. But
50:47
we also know in the beginning that Coleman feels
50:50
unappreciated. He's making the crepes, right?
50:53
And they're just sitting there and he throws
50:54
them in the trash. And nobody ever says thank
50:57
you. And he's humiliated in a lot of ways, right?
51:01
And then, of course, Billy Ray says, Thank you.
51:04
And Billy Ray says, why don't you have some of
51:05
this yourself, or have a drink yourself, or ask
51:08
them how he is. Pay some attention to him. Yes.
51:11
And so, right, there's that softening effect,
51:14
but also a sense of appreciation and gratitude,
51:16
perhaps. Yeah, absolutely. And that this is,
51:19
he is able to relate, again, in terms of class.
51:22
Right. In terms of class. Right. So, again, thinking
51:25
about hardscrabble people, thinking about class,
51:29
thinking about being... Going the distance. Oh
51:34
my good. The things I do, Lauren. Girl. For you
51:38
and for this podcast. Girl. I've got 10 people
51:41
listening to us. Our friendship is on thin ice
51:43
with Lauren. I told one of my students that you
51:47
didn't like it and they said, what is up with
51:50
her? And I said, I don't know. I said, I think
51:54
she was tired. or I don't know what the issue
51:57
was, but when I heard that Christine did not
52:00
like Rocky, which again, I would not repeat that
52:03
to anyone you know from Philadelphia. Did you
52:08
tell Jim that I didn't like Rocky? I don't think
52:11
we've had a chance to have that discussion. Please
52:13
don't tell him. It would be like saying you liked
52:15
And Just Like That. Okay, that's where that goes.
52:20
Okay, in my defense, I mean, again, you like
52:23
whatever you like, and that's what makes this
52:25
more interesting and fine. Okay, in case it isn't
52:28
clear, I absolutely thought that Rocky sucked.
52:34
No! Here's why. Okay, and I think you can tell
52:37
that Sylvester Stallone wrote it in three days.
52:41
Okay, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I think...
52:45
probably if I had seen it years ago, if I had
52:49
seen it when I was younger, if I had seen it
52:52
before 10 sequels or whatever the number currently
52:55
is, if I had seen it before I had any exposure
53:01
to Stallone as a cultural thing. Rambo, Stallone.
53:08
Rambo, you know, the whole thing. And I don't
53:10
think about any of that with him. And see, and
53:11
that's the thing. It's like for whatever reason,
53:13
I always remember an interview that he gave with
53:16
Movie Line. Remember Movie Line? Great magazine.
53:18
OK. Years ago, a million years ago, and he was
53:22
just so clearly the most like arrogant, sexist
53:27
kind of a -hole. And at that point, I... Wasn't
53:31
it like the Planet Hollywood era? It was in the
53:33
Planet Hollywood era. This is not a defense of
53:36
Stallone. I am a wicked. But all I'm saying is
53:40
that instead of being in 1976, right, not that
53:44
I would have seen it in 1976, but instead of
53:46
seeing it as something fresh, new, right, again,
53:51
having any kind of Philly -related sensibilities
53:54
about it, I was like, I cannot stand this movie.
53:58
It is so fucking boring. I don't care. I want
54:02
to see it. I want to see him get that crap beat
54:06
out of him. I'm kidding about that part, that's
54:07
not true. But I just, it absolutely was, and
54:12
I think we talked about this last time in the
54:15
pod, one of these, again, 70s movies, right?
54:19
And many of them are wonderful and fantastic
54:21
and I love them, but where it really is this
54:23
kind of slice of life. However much that we are
54:26
supposed to have this path, Right? Moving to
54:29
that fight at the end. I don't want to see him
54:33
walk on the street again. I don't want to see
54:36
him. I don't want to see it. There's the whole
54:39
scene of where Paulie simply is taking the trash
54:44
can from the front of the house to this side
54:47
of the house. I'm like, I don't want to see it.
54:49
I don't care that drunken Paulie is doing that.
54:53
I respect it. Where is Ivan Drago with this?
54:56
Okay, so the greatest thing about Rocky 1, and
54:59
this isn't to say that I don't love Rocky 2,
55:02
Rocky 3, and Rocky 4. Most Rocky diehards will
55:07
agree with me and say Rocky 1 is the best. Three
55:11
is the second best, the one with Mr. T. Oh, Mr.
55:14
T. Excellent. And then there's some horrible
55:18
Rockies that involve Sir Mr. Shalom. And then,
55:20
of course, there's Creed, which is excellent.
55:23
But we're not going to talk about that. I heard
55:25
that, yes. Excellent. With Michael B. Jordan,
55:28
and there's a whole other thing. But this Rocky,
55:31
and obviously Rocky II is very good. Rocky, the
55:34
sequel is very, very good when he rematches.
55:36
Yes, which I have not seen. OK. Excellent. But
55:39
if you hated Rocky 1, then again, the great thing
55:42
about Rocky 1, and this is why I love it, and
55:45
maybe some of the reasons why you hate it, is
55:47
because it is completely divorced from the sequels
55:50
in the meaning of it. It is not about who's gonna
55:54
win the fight, and training, and you know, this
55:58
one's bravado over that one's bravado, and these
56:01
two guys, and others. Rocky One is a slice of
56:05
life. Rocky One is about a guy who has nothing
56:09
going for him, who his goal is to just not be
56:13
a bum, as he says, okay? And he meets this...
56:17
in the very beginning, homely, kind of loser,
56:22
who works in a pet shop, who is a friend of his
56:25
brother, very shy, and he sees something in her,
56:31
and the two of them connect, and eventually build
56:35
enough confidence for Rocky too, who is randomly
56:40
chosen to fight. Apollo Greed, who's the heavyweight
56:44
champion of the world, right? In this - Yes.
56:46
In this - Yes. In this - Yes. Let's pick a complete
56:52
Philly local guy, random, to fight Apollo Greed.
56:58
And this is America, right? And that's what Apollo
57:00
Greed - Anyone gets a shot. Anyone gets a shot.
57:02
And Rocky - And it is the bicentennial. So the
57:04
whole sort of patriotic American dream, it's
57:07
overloaded. And so Rocky is - but one of my favorite
57:13
scenes in Rocky, okay, is he's up for it, but
57:16
he's also so angry at these people who latch
57:21
onto him, who have disappointed him in the past.
57:25
To me, one of my favorite scenes in Rocky, which
57:27
I can re -watch over and over again, is when
57:29
he is smashing his fist at the door, yelling
57:33
at Mickey, right? Because Mickey's now... finally
57:37
interested in him after telling him, you know,
57:40
you're a bum, you're a loser, you don't have
57:42
any, you don't have what it takes, you could
57:43
have been a great fighter, but I'm not interested
57:46
in you, and I'm gonna work with these other guys,
57:48
and I'm replacing your locker, right? That's
57:50
what he's basically said to him, and now Rocky's
57:53
like, you only want me now, you only want me
57:55
now, and he's screaming and Mickey's outside
57:57
of the house, but he can still hear him, and
58:00
Rocky is so angry that people never noticed him
58:03
until this just complete freak moment with Apollo
58:07
Creed. And I think, again, that's what I love
58:10
about the movie is that it isn't about whether
58:12
Rocky is going to actually beat Apollo Creed,
58:15
right? It's more a question of whether he can
58:17
hang with them. It makes this explicit. And yeah,
58:20
and he's just like, I just want to go a couple
58:23
rounds with them. I just want to prove that I
58:26
can, again, that I'm worth fighting, that I was
58:30
a worthy contender. And so, and he is, and also
58:36
that you start to see the crowd turn, because
58:39
of course in the beginning they're rooting for
58:40
Apollo, and then at the end they're rooting for
58:43
Rocky, and he's this, again, this nobody, but
58:46
who manages to take Apollo to the longest, closest
58:49
match ever. And it's not that I was... I'm disappointed
58:53
that he didn't win, right? Because I already
58:55
knew that coming in. But here's the thing, is
58:58
that a tiny, and this is why I just wish that
59:00
someone else had written the film who wasn't
59:02
Sylvester Stallone. Because to me, one of the
59:05
tiny details I wanted more explanation about
59:07
is when Mickey said, well, you could have been
59:10
a great fighter, but then you started working
59:12
for the gangster, right? Right, right. Okay.
59:15
And so part of it, I was like, oh. So what the
59:18
film is telling us is that Rocky himself made
59:21
this choice. Right. So Mickey is suggesting that
59:24
he could have gone the distance in a different
59:26
way. Right. And so I wanted a tiny bit more about
59:28
that. And here's why. One of the other reasons
59:31
why I think I would have liked Rocky better if
59:33
I could have seen it in 1976 is that in 1976,
59:37
I had not yet seen On the Waterfront. OK. And
59:41
so could have been a contender. And here's the
59:44
so On the Waterfront right set in the in New
59:47
York City right we are still in that very kind
59:50
of gritty working -class gangster adjacent world
59:54
and of course in On the Waterfront our boxer
59:58
Terry played by Marlon Brando has ruined his
1:00:02
own career as a boxer because he threw a fight.
1:00:06
And which I understand Stallone, that was part
1:00:09
of the original script, right? That Rocky was
1:00:11
going to throw the fight. So all of these things,
1:00:16
right? The language about like, you could have
1:00:18
been a contender, right? I don't want to be a
1:00:20
bum. I want to go the distance. All of that stuff
1:00:23
just takes me back to this famous monologue of
1:00:27
Marlon Brando in the backseat of the car, talking
1:00:30
to his brother. Why did you make me do it? I
1:00:33
could have had this great career. I could have
1:00:35
been a contender. instead of what I am now, which
1:00:37
is a bum. And so to watch that, right, and have
1:00:40
that super strong, you know, Elia Kazan, Marlon
1:00:44
Brando, 1955, Oscar -winning, especially because,
1:00:48
and I'm about to stop, of course, Marlon Brando,
1:00:52
the... the character is Terry, his love interest
1:00:56
in On the Waterfront is the beautiful and shy
1:01:01
Eva Marie Saint, right, who again is herself,
1:01:04
this kind of very demure, modest young woman
1:01:07
who is the sister of a neighborhood guy that
1:01:12
they've what, like killed or beaten the crap
1:01:14
out of or whatever. And so to me, I kind of look
1:01:17
at Rocky. again, erasing the whole Philadelphia
1:01:20
sense. And I'm like, so it's like Stallone watched
1:01:23
on the waterfront and he's like, wait, I'm about
1:01:27
to stop. It's as if he said, watched on the waterfront
1:01:30
and said, you know, I know this is an Oscar winning
1:01:32
film and stuff, but it doesn't have a montage.
1:01:35
It doesn't have a training montage. I want a
1:01:38
training montage with music set to it. But here's
1:01:41
the thing also again. the Philly of it, which
1:01:44
is so important in the movie and in the 1970s
1:01:49
and showing urban life in the 1970s. We don't
1:01:52
see. I don't think there's any city hall. There's
1:01:55
no kind of skyscraper. We don't see any of the
1:01:59
sort of fancy town, Philadelphia. We're not seeing
1:02:02
Society Hill. We're not seeing these different
1:02:04
areas. We're seeing we're seeing Kensington.
1:02:08
We're seeing. get hard scrabble, urban life,
1:02:13
graffiti, crime, mob, punch in the meat, all
1:02:18
that. And so Rocky is about the people who live
1:02:22
in Philly who don't go to Duke and Duke and work
1:02:25
there. And to me, that's what's so great about
1:02:28
it. And the training montage, which again, there's
1:02:32
all kinds of, I guess, reddits or whatever came
1:02:34
before Reddit. questions about the inaccuracy
1:02:38
of the training montage because he would have
1:02:39
never run through the various parts of Philadelphia
1:02:42
that are completely disconnected and there's
1:02:44
absolutely no way he could have gotten from one
1:02:47
part of the city to the other, running through
1:02:48
all these places, which is fine. Italian market,
1:02:50
Google, they're nowhere near each other. Okay,
1:02:55
but nobody really cares. And this also in later
1:02:58
iterations of Rocky, I believe it's Rocky too,
1:03:01
where a bunch of kids run after him when he's
1:03:03
doing his training. And then by the time that
1:03:05
he trains with Apollo Creed to fight Mr. T, he's
1:03:08
on the beach. And that's when they have their
1:03:10
kind of homoerotic, you know, water hugging tank
1:03:14
top moment. But this one is really when he starts
1:03:18
to run and of course, that very famous art museum
1:03:21
stairs moment when he gets to the top and he's
1:03:24
winded at the first time and then by the end,
1:03:28
you know, he's flying high now, flying high now,
1:03:31
feeling strong now, all of it. And he's like
1:03:34
the winged victory at the Louvre, which is also
1:03:37
on top of steps. But anyway, look, I mean, it
1:03:40
is. The most iconic Philly image ever is the
1:03:45
thing that anyone from Philly will tell you comes
1:03:48
to mind as rocky if you say name a Philly movie
1:03:52
Rocky you go into the airport. There's t -shirts
1:03:55
with rocky on them So there's a reason why nobody's
1:04:00
thinking about On the Waterfront Nobody who eats a
1:04:08
hoagie is thinking about On the Waterfront. Which
1:04:11
is actually too bad, because they might love
1:04:12
on the waterfront. If you like Rocky, you will
1:04:15
like On the Waterfront. Yeah, and again, it's
1:04:17
been a while for me with on the waterfront, and
1:04:19
it's strange that I didn't make the connection
1:04:22
between the two, but it is also because to me,
1:04:26
Rocky is so rooted in Philly lore that it is
1:04:29
difficult for me to separate it from anything
1:04:31
else. And also because Rocky has been repurposed
1:04:36
so many times and connected to so much Philly
1:04:38
sports and you know Eagles Parades and all sorts
1:04:44
of things you always hear the rocky music is
1:04:47
playing at the Phillies game or whatever. It's
1:04:50
It's a thing that has taken on a life of its
1:04:52
own. And of course, the Rocky Statue is just
1:04:55
only part of that. But it is the thing that a
1:04:58
lot of tourists want to see in Philly. I'm sure
1:05:01
it is. Interestingly. Probably rather than Ben
1:05:03
Franklin. Rather than the actual art in the art
1:05:04
museum, OK? Or Ben Franklin or William Penn or
1:05:10
all the other Philly things that are equally
1:05:15
as important. Well, you know, I do admit, not
1:05:18
that I'm going to watch them. But I do admit
1:05:20
it would be interesting, because I don't remember
1:05:22
it from Rocky III and Rocky IV, which I did see.
1:05:25
But to see that sort of, okay, Rocky now wealthy,
1:05:29
right? If the whole thing is like the whole hardscrabble
1:05:31
impoverished, right? He's living in a super -worse
1:05:33
studio apartment on the planet. You need to see
1:05:34
him in LA wealthy. I'd love to see him. That's
1:05:36
the thing. It's great. Okay, so by the time he's
1:05:39
in Creed, since I haven't seen any of them, and
1:05:42
I would like to. But in Creed, he's training
1:05:45
young Apollo's son. So is he still a celebrity,
1:05:53
I assume? Does he lose all his money? Yeah, he
1:05:56
loses all his money. He's down on his luck guy
1:05:58
again. He's wearing the black hat again. He's
1:06:02
kind of a nobody. He's kind of a nobody. And
1:06:04
he plays the Mickey roll. And that is an American
1:06:07
story too. Sometimes you are up. And sometimes
1:06:10
you are down. Exactly, exactly. OK, before we
1:06:13
end though. So do we have any books that we would
1:06:16
like to connect to any of these themes? You know,
1:06:21
I hate to say it. I did not prepare a book recommendation
1:06:24
for today. I probably would because when I think
1:06:27
about Philadelphia, I think about the Lea Library,
1:06:31
the University of Pennsylvania. I know it's a
1:06:33
weird thing to think about. I know, I know. You
1:06:37
know what? I'm not thinking about Rocky. And
1:06:40
I'm not going to do any kind of book recommendation
1:06:41
attached to it. If I think of something, I will
1:06:43
put it on the page. Do you have, as a native?
1:06:46
Also, my recommendations are the following. What
1:06:49
about the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin?
1:06:51
No, I'm not going to give the Autobiography of
1:06:54
Benjamin Franklin. That can be mine. I will just
1:06:56
say that if you are in Philadelphia, look, if
1:06:59
you're in Philadelphia, you already know you
1:07:02
can go to... These you can go to in Jersey. You
1:07:10
can go to Dino's. You can go to the White House.
1:07:13
These are hoagie places. Okay. And there are
1:07:17
a lot of other fantastic hoagie places, but choose
1:07:23
wisely. go where there's cheese was. And here's
1:07:28
the thing, pats versus genos, neither, neither
1:07:32
go where locals eat, not tourists. And that is
1:07:37
where tourists go. Okay. And again, I can, I
1:07:41
can go on and on with the Philly food and questions
1:07:45
about the Philly food. But the way, you know,
1:07:49
if you're not a shoobie, okay. The way you know,
1:07:53
you're not a shoobake, is if you eat a cheesesteak
1:07:56
or a pizza steak and you don't put any kind of
1:08:00
condiments on it that you would put on some other
1:08:02
kind of crap sandwich. But what about mayo? Have
1:08:06
you? I'm teasing you. I'm teasing. I mean, again,
1:08:10
I'm just... The whole conversation is now starting
1:08:13
to make me hungry and also starting to make me
1:08:16
very angry at Jersey Mike's. So, which I've never
1:08:20
ordered from and never will. Can I actually say
1:08:23
one more thing about Rocky? Yeah, go ahead. Go
1:08:26
ahead. I just want to say how impressed I was
1:08:27
that when Rocky was doing all of those runs,
1:08:30
like all over Philadelphia, that he was wearing
1:08:32
black Converse high tops. Probably not the most
1:08:35
efficient running shoe. By the way, one of the
1:08:40
most often quoted lines that I've heard is about
1:08:44
sex and weak legs. All right. Women, weak legs.
1:08:50
Women. Mickey. I did like how Talia Shire got
1:08:53
kind of a glow up as the movie went on. Oh, she
1:08:55
absolutely did. I mean, Talia Shire was such
1:08:57
a woman. I love at the end how he's like, where's
1:08:59
your hat? Okay, he's been pulled on, his face
1:09:02
is falling off, right? He's completely annihilated
1:09:06
and he's like, where's your beret? loves him
1:09:11
some Adrian. He does. And that love story, again,
1:09:15
I mean, these are just two lovable losers. And
1:09:19
what happens to butt kiss the dog? That's all.
1:09:23
Does he show up at Rocky 2? That's a really good
1:09:26
question. And where? That was like a big ass.
1:09:28
Well, he also didn't run with him when he did
1:09:30
the montage, because she says, I got you this
1:09:33
dog for when you run. Right. And then he doesn't
1:09:36
run with him. Right. But he continues to punch
1:09:39
the maid. He does punch the meat. I was like,
1:09:41
I'm glad I'm vegetarian. As a vegetarian, I didn't
1:09:44
know how you'd respond to that scene. Well, no,
1:09:46
I was glad I don't eat meat because I was like,
1:09:48
maybe in like, if I were eating meat, my meat
1:09:51
would have been, like, punched by some, you know,
1:09:54
boxer in training. Would you want to think that,
1:09:56
like, someone had been, like, punching? Punching
1:09:59
your meat sounds really, really obnoxious. So
1:10:02
anyway, sounds a little risque. So to end this,
1:10:04
I just want to say I love you, Philly. I love
1:10:07
you, Jack. at the University of Pennsylvania,
1:10:10
one of the great schools in Philadelphia. I love
1:10:13
you parents, if you're listening right outside
1:10:15
of Philadelphia and all my Philly friends. I
1:10:18
don't know if any of them are part of this 10.
1:10:21
I know this podcast, but we love you 10. But
1:10:24
we love you 10 and go to Philly and eat your
1:10:28
heart out. Oh, OK. This is so perfect. And do
1:10:31
you know who might want to go to Philly? Who
1:10:35
is that? Don't forget to do this. Our two listeners
1:10:38
from New Zealand might want to go to Philly.
1:10:42
Yes, we have located, we do not know who you
1:10:44
are. two listeners that are in New Zealand. And
1:10:47
so if you come - In different cities. In different
1:10:49
cities. So if you come to America, the second
1:10:53
part of Trading Places, by the way, if you like
1:10:56
Trading Places, you'll love Coming to America,
1:10:59
where - Oh, Don Amitri and Ralph El -Ami make
1:11:02
a cameo. Oh, I forgot about that. It's been so
1:11:05
long since I saw - Another terrific Eddie Murphy
1:11:08
movie. I cannot express to you how much I love
1:11:11
Eddie Murphy. Look, he's such a genius. And I'll
1:11:14
tell you something, if you didn't like Eddie
1:11:16
Murphy, this would be the end of this. Well,
1:11:18
come on. Come on. Again. I saw the raw tour.
1:11:22
I'm going to say it again. Saw live. That might
1:11:25
make up for your distaste of Rocky. You know,
1:11:29
I will just say before we go, so we've... talked
1:11:31
an awful lot about social class, economic class,
1:11:33
the working class, and it's not going to shock
1:11:35
you that in our next pod episode, when we go
1:11:38
to my hometown, which we're going to expand more
1:11:42
broadly to the state of Maine, we will also be
1:11:44
talking about social class and the working class.
1:11:47
So I hope our 10, including our New Zealand listeners,
1:11:50
stick with us for next time. across the