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A Story of Divorce, Shame, and Choosing Yourself · The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce

• Dana & Brooke: I l I honestly thought that what I needed to come to grips with was how I felt about my own Separation and divorce. But that turned out to be like 25% of it. 75% of what I had to deal with was other people's perceptions of it. That was what had been bubbling up for me for years and what finally got me to want to talk to him about it because am I a person that wants to talk about living an authentic life or actually go and live one, no matter how hard the road is to get there? You can accept the real person, but that doesn't mean. that you need to stay with them. Right, exactly. But when you are s when you're afraid of being alone, it's amazing how you will justify to yourself why. Why their behavior or the w their way of doing something or the way that they are or whatever skill set they do or do not have is I think it'll be okay. I think it'll be okay. You know? Hey, I'm I'm I'm thinking that I might need to blow up our family and will you pay my rent? That was just an absolute never gonna happen. It took me five months until I felt comfortable enough to tell my parents and my sister. I I think we even went on a spring break trip together and I didn't tell them. Hey, I'm not living out. Is there anything that you could say to the women out there who might be on the other side of this where their spouse comes to them and says, this isn't what I want anymore? I would say that. Dana, hi. Hi. I'm so glad that you're here to talk to me and everybody listening about your divorce experience. I think you have a really incredible story. And while it's not something that you hear of every day, I'm sure that there are other women out there that Can relate to what you went through. so first of all, I want to start off by asking you what was the point where you realized that your marriage wasn't working for you? Well, I actually knew that I probably shouldn't be getting married before I even walked down the aisle. In fact, I remember a very vividly walking down the aisle and thinking, I hope that I hope that this works. and not because I thought that I was marrying somebody who was not a great guy or there was like zero issues with him. but I just felt That like I I knew even when we were dating that something was just off. There was like a missing piece where it just didn't feel like this was truly my husband. but he was such a wonderful person. And I knew that he loved me unconditionally and that he would be the best husband and the best father. And I was 31 at the time, about ready to turn 31. And it was like, what am I stalling for? Like, why this guy is perfect? Like, why, why aren't I just like overjoyed and and feel sure that like of course this is supposed to be my husband? But I always had this like nagging kind of doubt in my head that I kept trying to push away. And so I just w decided that I was gonna get married anyways and make it work. and didn't think that it was gonna be that hard to do it. I thought maybe when I got married, I would just like fall into marriage and be like, my gosh, I'm so glad I I did that. Like I was just nervous or I didn't know what I was worrying about or whatever. And so it started then and I just kind of kept waiting for it to feel like w for us to just fall into this flow of being married and we were already great friends and so there was I I just I mean, I was going through with, you know, married life and we were doing very well, but there was always this nagging feeling from way back in the beginning that I just could never shake throughout our marriage. I certainly put it way in the back of my mind. and tried to forget about it and and often did forget about it for what felt like, you know, at times years at a time, but it would always just kind of pop up periodically. And and I don't know. I mean, it just got louder and louder over time. And so eventually on our the night we went out for dinner on our ninth anniversary, and I just we were sitting at dinner and I just was like, I have to talk to you about something. And so yeah, that's when I just the ball started rolling where we had our first conversation about, you know, something doesn't feel there's just like a missing piece here and something doesn't feel totally right and I don't wanna keep pushing it to the back of my mind anymore. And so that's kind of where the whole thing started. Yeah. So that internal voice just kept getting louder and louder and louder and you couldn't ignore it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was scary to have that first conversation, but I also was had been thinking about it and it had continued to pop up for nine years. And so it was definitely more uncomfortable not to talk about it when I did than to continue to keep it, you know, try to keep pushing it to the back of my mind. Yeah. And I can imagine that that takes an incredible amount of courage to have that conversation with a man who you loved who was a great father, was a great husband, like you said, and didn't really do anything wrong and especially like what we consider like wrong these days, where like there was no affair, there, you know, was no like anger issues or like, you know, things like that. So like can you walk me through like like what that was like for you to have that conversation like what it took for you to to do that. Yeah. I mean, not only was he was there nothing wrong, but he was like above and beyond the nicest guy in the world. Like there was on my shortly after my fortieth birthday, I completely severed my Achilles tendon playing tennis. And I needed like surgery the next morning and he so this was like on a Wednesday, say I was playing tennis, I severed my Achilles tendon, I was in a tremendous amount of pain. And he had flown to Denver for a work trip. And he had landed in Denver and I had called to tell him, hey, I totally hurt myself and I'm going into surgery the next morning. And he immediately went to the gate and got on a flight home. Did not do his business trip at all. Flew all the way back. just t told everybody at work, hey, I can't do these meetings. I'm flying home. So he was just he is still the most giving person. Like, and so it's not like there was just, he didn't, you know, there was no betrayal or there was no incessant fighting or he wasn't a narcissist or like it wasn't that. It it was just he was the nicest person ever. And so that made it so much harder. And I just was, you know, y I had the internal conflict of like, this just doesn't feel like my like my person. Like it doesn't feel like I'm supposed to be in this marriage. But I also had the internal conf conflict of how do you rip apart your family unit when the man you're married to is so wonderful? And so I really struggled with that too. But I it was just this persistent nagging That I thought, if there's anyone in the world that I can bring this up to and say, hey, like this is something I've really been struggling with for a long time. And can we talk about this? And he would be the person that would be able to entertain that conversation and not completely freak out and actually be like the calm presence that would be able to hear what I had to say and then. you know, maybe have some grounded idea for how we can kind of get through this internal conflict of mine. And that's exactly what happened when I did bring it up at dinner that night. I mean, it's was just crazy to me that we were sitting there at this really nice restaurant and I was like, hey, there's something that I just have to tell you. and, you know, let him know about my feelings. And he really did that entire night. Like we We talked about it at dinner and then we went out for drinks afterwards and continued to talk about it. And I look back now knowing that one, his personality and his ability to like really take in and hear what I had to say is just who he is, but also he was a hundred percent thinking, this is a this is gonna pass. Like this isn't gonna end our relationship. And so and I I didn't go into that conversation necessarily thinking like, I know that I need to get a divorce. You know, it was just I've got a huge problem on my hands that I I need to talk about. and it did end up that we went down the road of divorce, but at that time I had the first conversation. It you know, we were I was definitely hoping that we could figure out a way to get this internal voice of mine to quiet down once and for all. Yeah. And you know, like I said, I'm gonna go back to courage because in a lot of instances, women and even men, if they're on the other side of it, wouldn't have that conversation because they would be too scared. So if they weren't fulfilled in some way, they would have just looked elsewhere. They would have like gone into cheating and you know, like you know, I don't wanna give him up because he's the best dad and we have a great life together, but I'm there's something within me that's not fulfilled. And so I'm just gonna go find it and and I'm gonna cheat. And I mean that is happening all around us. Like I see that all the time. So you actually had the hard conversation. And were you terrified in that moment of like how he was gonna react and how devastated because I can imagine, not to put words in his mouth, but were you afraid that he was gonna feel like completely blindsided? No, I knew him well enough to know and had been in a number of you know, tough conversations with him about just life things that he he's not He doesn't have an angry temperament. Like he's not a defensive person. He's just a very kind, gentle, open to listening type of person. So I knew that he would definitely hear me out. I mean, I didn't even cross my mind since that time, since him, I've definitely I understand now that there are very defensive men out there, but at that time I didn't even think that he may be defensive. So I wasn't scared about his reaction at all, but my driving force to bring it up was like I I just wanted to be authentic. I wanted to be the most authentic version of myself. And that had that was what had been bubbling up for me for years. and what finally got me to want to talk to him about it because it was like it became my number one value. And I kept asking myself, am I living the most authentic life that I can live? And and in many ways, yes, I was. Like I felt like, yes, it's very authentic that I'm a mother, and yes, it's very authentic that I'm you know, living where I'm living and have the relationships that I do. But it this marriage just felt so inauthentic. And so that's what For me, the c I mean, I guess you could call it courage, but it it was for me just so driven by my deep desire to be living my most authentic life that was like, Okay, if this is what you say that you want to be doing, this is clearly not this does not feel like the authentic marriage that that is meant for you. and so I have to say something or else I mean I'm gonna just accept that I'm going to be living inauthentically, which to me was completely not palatable. Like I, it was an absolute no. But so I didn't even, you know, my mind, I knew that I wasn't in the right marriage, but I never once thought, like, I'm gonna go cheat. Like that, that's inauthentic for me. Like it so that wasn't even a a thought in my mind. It was just If I truly want to be true to myself and my values, I have to speak up and at least bring this to the table because I I can't live with not being true to my values any longer. So that was it. And I I love that. I think more people should be true to their values. but it's interesting then what happens next because you wanted to be authentic. You acted it with integrity. And yet the way that you moved out of your house suggests that there was still a lot of shame that you were feeling. So can you share that? Well, from the time of that first conversation, so we had that first conversation at dinner on our ninth anniversary, which was in August, it was an entire year and a half. Before I eventually got up the courage. No, this was courage. When I got up the courage to move out of the house. and and in that year and a half, we had had many, many tough conversations. Like it just became more and more real. Like, okay, this internal conflict isn't being absolved at all by the conversations that we're having. And he was saying, my gosh, like we're having all of these cut tough conversations. We're both kind of ending up in tears, and and yet she's still talking about like what she needs to do. So we had gone through this very long process to get to the place where I finally was like, listen, to to see if maybe I can quiet these questions about our marriage. I have to move out. Like I physically have to leave the house. And so, and that had been, you know, eight prior to that, for eight months, I had been sleeping in our basement, in the bedroom in our basement. So it was like I kept taking these steps to like separate and get the time and space that I needed to try to come to grips with what I should do about this feeling of, you know, not feeling authentic in my marriage. And And so then when the day came 18 months later where I said, I I think I need to try to move out and see what happens when I'm living in a different space. That was so scary to me because he was a great husband and a great father, and he definitely allowed me the time and space that I needed to figure out what I was doing with my career. So I had been a stay-at-home mom for what was that? Five years. I had I was in this complete crossroads with work. Like I it was benefiting us that I was a stay-at-home mom, but I was also doing it because I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing. So there was like all this confusion inside of me of really wanting to be productive and making money for our family and and just like living out my purpose. Again, like what is my authentic. career and I couldn't figure out what it was. And so I was completely reliant on him financially. And I had just barely started to work like quarter time in my own business. I was a copywriter and doing various other marketing things. And I was working quarter time and had just barely begun to make like enough money to even remotely think about supporting myself. And so then I'm making this decision to move out and and it was totally like on a wing and a prayer. Like I I knew that if I was moving out of the house and I was going to move into my own apartment and I was the one who had initiated these conversations with him and the idea of go going through a trial separation and me moving out, that I then was I was just not going to ask him for money. Like I mean, it the the thought of that was just so crazy. Like, hey, I I'm I'm thinking that I might need to blow up our family and will you play will you pay my rent? Like that was just an absolute never gonna happen. And so I had to, I was like, I've gotta figure this out for myself. So I completely ramped up my business to the place where I thought it was going to be able to like, you know, at least bring in six figures, which would barely get my needs met. And so there was all this scariness about was was that was there enough of a runway for me, enough of a security blanket there for me to be able to make this work? Like I didn't even know. But I signed this lease for 15 months at a very nice apartment complex that was not cheap, but I felt like I had to do that because I knew that my kids were gonna have to come there and they I couldn't like they had to go Becoming someplace that they could feel comfortable about coming to. And within one week of me signing this 15-month lease, I lost my biggest client that accounted for like 70% of my income. So I was freaking out. Like, how am I going to do this? And I knew that asking him for money was an absolute no. And I certainly wasn't gonna ask my parents for money because I hadn't even told them that I was considering moving out. Or that any of this was going on. And so there was all of that fear around how on earth am I going to do this when I've been completely reliant on him financially providing for our family for the last five years. And then I didn't even realize that there was going to be so much shame around just the fact that I was moving out. Like I lived on a block in Our neighborhood that is filled with all of these wonderful families. Now, I don't know what goes on inside their homes and how happy they really are, but to my eyes, they were all looking so wonderfully happy and doing all of the things that wonderfully happy families do. And here I was like literally moving out and breaking up my family. So it just felt so a many emotions. Like I was embarrassed. I felt like a failure. Like, why can't I just be happy? This guy is so nice and wonderful. Why can't I just be happy with this? And so there was so much like I had no basis for how to handle that because nobody on either side of my family had been divorced. And and divorce like in my family was just like this taboo thing. Like it just we just Mm, I don't know, like we was just something we we did not do divorce in my family. And so I had no idea how to navigate it, but I did not anticipate how much of a like smack in the face it would feel like to have to grapple with that amongst all of the other worries that I had when I moved out. So I didn't want anybody to know, like For a couple of reasons. One, I'm very much a private person. And so for me, it felt like, okay, I'm about to have my family go on this big transition. And who really needs to know about this right now? Like, do my neighbors need to know about this? Do my parents even need to know about this? And to me, the answer was no. It was like the only first the two people that really need to get clear on what's happening here and why is My husband and I, and that's it. And then when we're clear on it, then the only other two people that really need to be looped in are our children, who were five and seven at the time, and we had to loop them in in a way that was age appropriate and didn't scare the crap out of them. And so for quite a while, it was just the four of us that really knew what was going on. And I had like two friends I think that I had kind of confided to about what was going on, but that was it. And I did not want to tell my parents about what was going on because my mom is has a lot of nervous energy and is just a warrior. And so if I didn't come to her and say, hey, I feel like I'm, you know, need to figure out what's going on in my marriage and I need to move into an apartment to fit really get some space and figure that out, she would have absolutely freaked out. And I couldn't even tell her, don't worry. I have a plan. I know exactly how this is gonna go. I I wasn't gonna be like, and by the way, I just lost my biggest client. I have no idea how I am going to support myself. and I I I tr truly hope that the kids are gonna be okay through this transition, but I didn't know. I there was so many unknowns. And for me, it was like I had to be able to to provide some kind of assurance to my parents that I had this covered and I couldn't. And so I I didn't tell them and I didn't even tell my twin sister. and so I moved out and I I I because nobody knew, I rented my own U-Haul truck. I really rented a van, but they didn't have a van when I went to pick it up. So I had to drive a box truck by myself. On a February day where there had been a blizzard the night before. And so I had to drive to I I had bought bought a a couch for my apartment and I was moving in, you know, this one Thursday morning. And so I had to rent I drive this box truck to the furniture store to pick up this couch by myself. And I had to like bribe one of the workers inside to help me load the c the couch into the box truck. And then I'm driving into my apart the apartment and I was just praying that nobody saw me. I had to like then go to my house and load in like my mattress and like all of the stuff praying that none of the neighbors saw what I was doing. To my knowledge, nobody did. And then I get to the apartment complex and I had to bring all of this stuff up to my apartment and just again praying that nobody saw me and that I could do all of this like in secret. And so on top of being scared that like I was blowing up my life and how was I ever gonna support myself, I'm getting zero support from the outside world and felt like I needed to do all of this on my own. So that was just absolutely wild. And it took me five months until I felt comfortable enough to tell my parents And my sister. So I lived in that apartment for five months without telling them. And would have full on conversations with them on the phone. Like I I think we even went on a spring break trip together. And I didn't tell them, hey, I'm not living at home. It was just so so weird. But that I that's what I felt like I needed to do. and and honestly, like I don't even look back on that and be like, that was so stupid. Like That's what I needed to do. Yeah. And to get through it in the way that like felt like I could somehow get through this. And so I'm sure it sounds bizarre to so many people, but to me, it was like, this is just the way that I have to handle this. And I eventually did tell them. And it was exactly as traumatic as I thought that it was gonna be. And my mom needed a ton of reassurance and a ton of hand holding. And a ton of explanation. And I would never have been able to take that on at the beginning when I was trying to figure out what the heck I was even doing. So I guess it all worked out. Yeah. I can't even imagine not telling the people close to me just to have somebody to to talk to and to like figure things out with. But your reasons are very valid for why because you didn't have the answers. And you knew that people wanted I didn't have the answers. I I didn't even have the well, I can see how this path could play out. And I'm just really nervous. Like it was like I literally had no idea how this was gonna work out. Like none. Like I had to materialize new clients like out of thin air. And so I it it was like blundering around in the dark, like just just literally every day. I was like, okay, how am I gonna figure this out today? Like how i every month for the longest time it was like, how am I gonna figure this out so I can pay my rent next month? And yeah, it was wild. But that's just the way that it was. I look back on it now, like so many times, you know, like you look back on certain th events in your life and you're like, my gosh, I cannot believe I did that. Like I this is definitely one of those things I look back and I'm like, I cannot believe I had the I was crazy enough to think that I could pull that off. But I did. But yeah. my gosh. And did any of your neighbors ever say to you after, like, we did see that truck. Or like what time of day was it that you'd it was like 10 30 in the morning. It was broad daylight when I was loading in all of my furniture. gosh, it was so silly. but no, no one ever said anything. But I I you know, I know that that they definitely felt bad that I was that I felt like I needed to go through this on my own because so many conversations kind of sprung up in the course of like the the year or two that that came after that move out day, where I realized that so many of them had, you know, parents that were divorced or Like it wasn't as, you know, perfect. Like everybody wasn't as perfect and and polished as like I had told myself that they were. So there was a lot of understanding that I didn't open myself up to receive because I was just too worried about what people would think. but yeah. Yeah. Wild. And maybe on some level You didn't want to receive judgment. I mean, because that's thrown out a lot, right? People have their own biases and they certainly have their own opinions. And they will give you know, advice. Yeah. yeah. Well, that's not when I chose not to tell anybody before I moved out and then the for that five months, right when I did move out, that was like a self-preservation move on my part. I I was recognizing that in real time. Like it just felt like I need to do this for me. But but very soon after I moved out and for a good like two years afterwards, it wa I was so impacted by other people's views of divorce and separation. Like there was definitely my own family's views of divorce and separation. Like it was something to be ashamed of or like something to be embarrassed about or There was that, but also it's like I didn't realize that I was going to be subjected or take on other people's perceptions of divorce too. And it's like, whoa, like the noise just felt so loud in the first year or two around how people li if people thought what I was doing was horrible or super selfish or Some people were inspired by it and were like encouraging and understanding. And then, you know, on the other people would just totally didn't get it. Like there was just so many different opinions. And so yeah, I mean, eventually you can't hide forever. Like after five months was like, I had to tell my parents. I had to tell my sister and people had to start knowing, like my good friends like had to start knowing that I was living somewhere else. And and so when you finally have to open yourself up to that, it's like you underst you get a it's real clear how people feel about the decision that you made and you lose some friends, like fall away and so it's complicated. But yeah, yeah, everybody's got a feeling about divorce, especially when there's kids involved. So it's just a part of it, you know, going through that process. Yeah. How long did it take for you to stop feeling that shame? I think I needed I needed like the time just to get comfortable with the decision that I made and and the questions that I was trying to answer. Like there was still a part of my mind that was like, maybe I will move out and maybe this time living on my own will make me feel like I I need to go back to my marriage and I need to move back into my house. And so there was that time where I was trying to figure that out, but the more that I was living on my own and in my own space. Now, granted, it was literally a half a mile away from my house. So I was seeing my kids every single day. Like it's not like I was living out in the woods somewhere. but the longer that I lived in my apartment, the more and more. Peaceful, I felt, and it truly felt like the my internal voice was telling me, we feel really good here. Even though all of this feedback that we're getting from various people in our lives is saying that, you know, you're making a mistake, or are you sure that that this is the right thing to do? Or how are your kids handling this? Or la. So all of that, like kind of chaotic feedback. was happening outside of me, but inside of me, I was feeling more and more peaceful and more and more like, okay, I'm doing the right thing. I feel like I'm walking over the bridge to a more authentic life. And so the more comfortable I got with that and the more peaceful I felt, the more the shame was able to leave. Cause it was like I it just didn't it became less and less like I just didn't feel like I had much to feel shameful about. Mm-hmm Especially since my husband and I, we had, you know, it was not like the easiest transition. He kept thinking that I was gonna come to the conclusion that we needed to keep our marriage and I was gonna move back in. And so things were relatively okay. while that was going on. But when he realized that I wasn't going to be moving back in, that's when things got rocky for a while. but despite all of that, like we had our periods of difficulty, but by and large, the kids were doing okay with the situation. So that helped immensely. If they had been struggling, I would have felt way more shame and it would have been way harder. But they they we we managed to navigate them through this situation okay. And so that seriously helped with making me feel better about it. did that surprise you how they hand how they were handling it? A little bit. But they were also like, you know, five and seven. And so the fact that they got to come and visit and and and s stay with me and there was a pool out the window. Like I mean it's like so crazy. But like they thought that that was like big fun. And as long as they knew that we were still a family and we were like I I might be a half a mile down the road, but I was still very, very, very present. Like they could have called me at any moment and they did. And I was like right there. So that seriously helped, I think, how they adjusted. And they were going through this with, even though we had some rocky times where it was like, okay, this is a serious trans transition. They had two parents that were very emotionally as as grounded as you could be given the transition. And they also had a dad that was very emotionally intelligent and wasn't like completely. freaking out and, you know, getting super upset in front of them. Like it was it was as peaceful as it possibly could be while still being heartbreaking. And then on t but on top of that, well, we didn't take anything for granted. Like they started to see a counselor and like we made sure that they had support. And then we were just doing our best to talk them through it as best as we could, you know? So But yeah, I mean, I'm surprised that I was able to navigate that. I'm still surprised that I was able to navigate any of this in the way that I have. Like now things are so and and it did not take long for things to become much, much better. And and that the rocky times eventually like settle down. And my ex-husband and I have have a beautiful relationship now. He's like literally one of my absolute best friends. And so, yeah, I don't know. That's just helped the situation so much. But also as I mean, this experience has turned into something that I am so proud of for my life, like my whole life. I look back on all the things I've done and I'm like, this is probably number one of the thing I'm most proud of, how we've navigated that. And it just cracks me up because it's like for a person who had no idea how she was gonna support herself when she did this and just leapt off the cliff. Like I just somehow managed to turn this into a situation that I just feel is the best possible scenario for a divorce. yeah, nobody wants to get divorced, but like I feel like if if you've got to, the way that I've done it is pretty darn good. So my gosh. Well, I mean, was it luck? Was it determination? You know, like there's a lot of things that you know, you could say might have played into that. What do you want to say about or what have you learned about that woman that you were that got into a marriage that maybe, you know, wasn't right? Like what's the difference between that woman and the woman you are? my gosh. Well, and through lots of self-reflection. And and this was happening before I even talked to my husband about I feel like, you know, I want to tell you about this internal conflict that I have going on. I he's 11 years older than me. And so when we got when we met, I was 29 and he was turning 40. And so I had been through at that time two careers and just was like I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do or like why I just I was so like just unsettled inside and was just frustrated with like, my gosh, I thought I was gonna have this all figured out. I should be here by now, you know, and I wasn't and just was feeling very unfulfilled and very directionless. And very much like I'm failing at life. And then I meet him and he's 11 years older and he knows exactly what he's doing. And he is financially stable and he is emotionally evolved and he has all of these things. And I was like, you like luckily we liked each other and he was had unconditional love for me and wanted to get married. And I was like, my God, yes. Like I'm failing at life and you're crushing it. So like Yeah. Guide this ship, you know, like drive the boat. And and it was a relief at that time, but you know, it didn't take me but a couple of years to realize, I basically he rescued me and I let him do it. And I basically gave up my agency because I felt like I I was failing. And so here he comes in and And it was just such a relief to have him take things over and kind of like make life work for me, you know? But I've n it never sat right with me that I basically, you know, you know, just basically let him take over. And he didn't do it in any way that was like controlling. I mean, he he was so supportive and encouraging of me really finding the my purpose and what would light me up. But I when I realized w it hit me like a ton of bricks, it was like, my gosh, like I overlooked the feelings of this man has a very important place in my life for sure, but not my not as in my in a marriage. Like I would I told him when we were having these conversations about like what should we do. I was like, it feels like you're like a spiritual partner of mine. But it doesn't feel like we're supposed to be husband and wife. And and so it's like but I wouldn't allow myself to really dig to to dwell too much on those sentiments. I was having those when we were dating, but I wouldn't allow myself to dwell too much on that because I just I wanted someone to rescue me. Like I was just drowning. And so when I looked back and I was like, my gosh, I just allowed him to rescue me and that became the most important thing in my life. Like that's that was just like I just can't. I can't live the rest of my life knowing that like I d I never truly learned to stand on my own two feet. And so that is what this whole process has been about in okay, I want to live a very authentic life. Am I a person that wants to talk about living an authentic life or actually go and live one, no matter how hard the road is to get there? I'm the person who wants to go and do it. But then two, it's like I really want to achieve self-sufficiency. And I don't want to be in a marriage or any relationship where I feel like I need the other person to help me like get by in any way. So the person that I've become through this process is I have had to a hundred percent figure out how to live like fully grounded, standing in my own two feet. And all of those challenges, like when it was like, my gosh, I just lost my biggest client, like what am I going to do? And also the refusal to ask him for any money whatsoever. It was like that, all of those things were a part of building that self sufficiency. Which is freaking scary. So the funniest thing about my you know, I it sounds so can sound so like inspirational or like, you know, I I wanna live an authentic life. It just sounds so like I don't know what the word is, but just like I wanna say woo, but it's not. It's just like this abstract thing that just sounds so wonderful, like I wanna live the most authentic life. And like what I've come to realize in the all of these years that we've been up that I that since we separated, and that was in twenty nineteen, so it's been like seven years now, is is when you make the declaration that you want to live an authentic life, like in my very naive mind, it was like, I'm not in the right marriage for myself and I wanna go live a more authentic life that like poof within A year I would have met the love of my life and it w you know it would have been the most, all the missing pieces are here. Like that's honestly what I thought was gonna happen, right? And it's like, no, like when you make the declaration, I want to live a more authentic life and I'm willing to actually take the steps to give myself the best chance of that happening, you're basically signing yourself up for. Anything that needs to be dismantled in you or anything that needs to be developed in you to put you to to make sure that you're the person who can attract in an authentic life, that's what's going to happen. So every challenge that could possibly have come my way that would force me to build my own self-sufficiency happened. And it was scary. But what I've learned and now I'm feel so rock solid confident in is like, I c whatever f flies into my path, I can handle it now. Like I'm not looking for anyone else to rescue me. The thought of that makes me absolutely cringe. Like that was just an old version of myself and who I've developed into now is very, very self sufficient. So and which feels amazing. feels amazing. And so I just will never be in another relationship again where I'm looking for somebody else to complete me or help me too much or just do it for me because I'm failing, you know? Yeah. Now it's very much like, I I can do this, I can do life by myself. Like I'm capable of make making this work no matter how hard it gets. And so relationships now are just a complement to my life, instead of like a lifeboat. Yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of women out there that need the relationship because they don't want to take the time to really dig deep inside and figure out like who are you and like what do I need in my life to be happy? Like Doing inner work is so hard and challenging. And you're right. It's not like one day, like, I'm gonna be the best version of myself. Poof, it's done. Like it takes commitment and it takes like failure, you know, trial and error and all of that stuff. So like, would you say that you've gotten it figured all out now? Or are you still like working on yourself? my gosh. I'm always gonna be working on myself. I feel like Over the last seven and a half years I've gone through I'm very committed to the journey of my own personal growth and my developing my own sense of self and my growing my self-worth and becoming the most self-sufficient that I possibly can. And so like I love the that path and like every layer that I've had to unpeel and really delve into to grow. I've been You know, there like I I feel like now that it's been seven and a half years, I kind of recognize a pattern in the way that I grow where I'll be like there's like a layer of learning that I need to really dig into and I do, and then I have like all of this growth that comes from it or all of these new ways of thinking or ways of being or new skills. And then I I integrate. It's like I I go through a really deep period of learning and self awareness and then maybe reprogramming some subconscious beliefs. And then I integrate and I kind of live with all of this new learning for a stretch. And then it's like, it's time to either r go back and reinforce, or it's like another layer of learning will present itself. And then I dig in deep and I learn and I grow and then I spend some time just integrating. And so I think that process, I hope it happens for the rest of my life because I know that it's never over with. And I never want to be at a place where it's like, okay, like I feel like I'm yeah, I'm or you know, essentially you're saying, I'm good enough. I'm good enough right now. Like I just I wanna just continue to whatever opportunities for growth present themselves, whether it's through my work or through my relationships or through my friendships or through my parenting or through whatever it is. I want to continually be open to those opportunities for growth and digging in and doing it. Yeah. And so what can other moms learn from your story? I definitely feel like a huge thing about my divorce is like it can be very easy to think or have been taught through, you know, society that divorce is bad. And and I definitely I am a definitely an example where divorce is not bad. Like my ex-husband and I have a beautiful relationship. And we both will openly say that our separation and our divorce led us down a road where we both grew so much individually and then also together. and so We look back and think if we would have stayed married, like who knows what would have happened, but we both feel confident in guessing that we would never have had the growth journey that we've been on. So if I can be an example that grow that divorce doesn't have to be bad and actually can be of of a just a relationship transformation that can actually be very positive, I would feel really good about that. I I feel like we did a a couple of things really right. Like we went really slow. We didn't have that first conversation and say, I guess that means we're supposed to separate. Yeah. Like it took us a year and a half of hard conversations. Like we weren't having these conversations every single day, but like maybe once a month. We kept coming back to this. Issue and talking about it, and we didn't make any decision until we felt like we were ready. Like, like we just went as slow as we needed to set ourselves up for potential success down the line. And I'm very happy that we didn't rush right into anything. And then I'm just very happy with the way that we kept. continuing to do the hard work that was necessary after we separated and after the divorce was final to make sure that our relationship for the kids was solid. Like we hang out the four of us p regularly, not every weekend, but definitely regularly. And so we would never have been able to do that if we weren't regularly working on our friendship. and so I just feel like that's a really important thing to do too. Yeah, I think a lot of people think, I just can't wait to get, you know, get this person out of my life. And if you have children, that's not going to be the case. So whether or not you have the kind of relationship with your spouse that you had, or you have a really contentious, high conflict relationship. you're still going to be in each other's spheres because of the kids. And so, you know, it might be worth that extra effort to try to make it as, you know, good and possi you know, as good as possible for for the kids. And even if you like I was lucky to have ex-husband who was very open to talking things through and had the emotional intelligence that he was able to reflect on, you know, his own ways of being. Like I was very lucky. And and many people are in a situation where they don't have they're not parent co-parenting with somebody who is rational. Yeah. Or is able to have like able to have a conversation where they don't immediately get defensive and shut down. And so, but even if you're in that situation, you always have the ability to work on yourself. Like you're the only person that you can control anyways. And so it is such a gift to your kids, even if you don't have the ability to you know co-parent and grow together as you know exes to be able to really dig deep into the things that really trigger you about your ex-spouse or what might be getting in the way of you being able to give your kids the most stable transition out of their family unit as possible. Like you can do that work on your own and make a huge positive impact for your kids. And that's worth it too. it's just like having the willingness and the courage really to do it because it's not easy, but It's so beneficial. Yeah, it is. And I think a lot of people can, you know, hurt feelings, especially if there was an affair or something, that they might rather just sit in blame and in more of a victim mentality than really examining what you know, what they need to do for themselves to get out of that. You know, you can take ownership. of your life, just like what you had said earlier, where, you know, you wanted to be rescued and you kind of gave your agency to somebody else and abdicated, you know, things to your spouse. And taking ownership of that and, you know, leading in your life has made such a, you know, it seems to be a very positive outcome. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I just there was just no other way around it. Like, how can you not be the leader of your own life and truly be happy? Like, I just don't even think it's possible. And so I it was just eating me up inside to not to know that I was not leading my own life. I was like literally letting someone else lead my life. Yeah. But fear is really strong, you know? And sometimes people will let Fear control their lives forever. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And what a scary way to live. Yeah. Cause there's no way you can be happy when you're letting fear lead. What are you looking for now that you don't have? That I don't have. Yeah. I don't really feel like anything is missing. I feel like Another thing that I'm very proud of that has come out of this journey that I've been on for the last seven and a half years is I have developed a hundred percent self-sufficiency. Like I feel like I can handle any challenge, but I also have stopped like the the number one thing that is so important to me is like, do I feel like I'm On the most authentic path for myself. And as long I mean, you can also use the word alignment. Like I feel like, is does my life feel aligned with who I am and what I want? And when I can say yes, it is, like all of I really don't want for anything. So I love the relationship that I've grown with myself over all of this time. And for me, that is the most important thing. I love the relationship that I have with myself and like everything else just feels like a bonus. I don't know. Like I'm just happy. That's amazing. I mean, it's so great. And and I think it goes back to this like needing versus wanting, right? Like you might, you know, want things, but you don't need them to be happy, to feel complete, to feel whole, right? And so it sounds like, you know, the work that you've done has really like flipped your life. Yeah, it's totally flipped my life. Like I, I mean, I just like I was looking for someone else to save me, I I for, you know, long before I got married and then throughout my marriage, it's was I was always looking for something externally to make me happy. Like whether it was, you know, when I have this car, I'll be happy, or when I I have like X, Y, and Z material item, or going on this trip is gonna make me so happy. Like I just Things have totally shifted for me where I just do not feel that way. I mean, the I just have lost all excitement and outside things because I feel so content and fulfilled with the internal landscape that I've developed within myself. And and being able to see like just all of the great gifts and opportunities that just present themselves to you in a normal day. Like literally it's crazy. Like I never used to think this way. But now it's like I wake up and it's like, like what what's gonna happen today? What little things are gonna happen today that just like that are opportunities for me to experience joy in life or experience growth or what everything has become like a a cool opportunity for like you know, who am I gonna see at the grocery store? Or I mean, that kind of stuff would be like, my God, how boring. Like before it'd be like, I've got this list of things that I want, you know? And now it's just like life itself has become pretty exciting for me. And just the the little things. So that is all b shifted because I I just feel like I'm I'm in my little corner of the world, like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and truly feel like I'm on the right path. And it's completely shifted the way that I interact with life and the world and what I find valuable in life and the world. So Dr. Wayne Dyer says that happiness isn't the outcome, it's the way. Right. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And and I think that that is, you know, unfortunately, people are chasing happiness. You know, they think To your point, if I have this, I'll be happy. If he does this, I'll be happy. If she does that, I'll be happy. Right. They're they're putting it out to other people and other things to bring them happiness when it's actually created in here. And once you can start to feel that inside, then everything that you look at will change. Yeah. It's a hundred percent true. A hundred percent. And why do you think it's so hard for people to get that? I think that it takes a lot of work and willingness and just per persistence to do to really like l look inside of yourself and do the work that's necessary to grow. I think people are scared to do it because they don't know what the process is gonna bring forward in them and if they're gonna be able to handle it. And a lot of people just like don't know what to do. They're like, what is the work? I mean, the everyone says do the work, but like what do I do? You know? Which is a very valid question. and then also it's it's sometimes boring. It's sometimes like really difficult. And and so I think most th there are a lot of people who just don't want to walk that path because it just seems too challenging or too long. Like For me to to grow like it's not like poof in three months I like developed all of this self sufficiently. Like this has been years of work and it's been so worth it, but it's just been me pull up, plugging through it and keep keeping doing it. And I just I don't think I think people want instant gratification and they think like, if I, you know, take make the leap to leave this negative relationship or to leave this negative job or to get out of this bad situation that you know, there's this very small window, like, well, the the good thing better happen fast, you know, and it it very often doesn't. And so you you just have to keep like staying committed to what you want in order for you to get it. And I I honestly don't think that a lot of people have that type of patience or longevity in and putting in the work that's necessary for that long. Yeah. And especially when you are a single parent, you know, if you're now, like you said, going from stay-at-home mom to now I have to run my own business and I have to do this stuff. How does one find the time to do all this work on themselves? You know, that can be daunting. Yeah. Well, it really for me the work has been thinking. Like I literally am just There are I'm I'm a ponderer by nature. Like I'll just wonder about things. And it's like my whole thing started with like just what does it mean to me to I I have this calling to live a more authentic life than what I'm doing. I know that something isn't feeling right here. And it was just kept pulling on that thread of like, well, what would it actually mean for me to? live a more authentic life. What doesn't feel right here to me and why? And like I can be thinking about that no matter what I'm doing, whether I I'm driving around, you know, I'm I'm kind of th mulling that over or I mean you can be literally doing anything, cutting the grass, like any errands, like brushing your teeth, like just I I'm mulling over those things. And when you just allow yourself the time to think about it. Answers will start to pop up. And if you just kind of follow the breadcrumbs, it the path that the more that you put your attention on the path itself, just in asking those questions and getting curious about what the answer might be, I have found that the path just keeps opening itself up to you the more that you take a couple steps, like now you've got a little bit more path to walk, and and it'll lead you. Life will lead you to the right answers and to the right life as long as you are j make a point to try to be aware of what messages you're might be out there for you to receive. But you have to just be open to it. Yeah. And if you don't do that work, then you can find yourself back in the same situation that you just left. Yeah, exactly. Which happens a lot. And that's why we see The divorce rate and second and third marriages just it's like so crazy high because people are looking for something to fill this void within them instead of filling it themselves. Totally. One of the biggest things that I did, and this was just in the last like two years, is I I believe that everybody has a fear of being alone, whether they want to admit it or not. And I I didn't realize that I had a fear about being alone until I started to see the pattern in my own relationships and realized if I don't take some time and just be on my own and really confront my fear of being alone, I'm going to basically repeat this pattern no matter what relationship I get in. It might look slightly different, but it's basically going to be, I'm going to be repeating myself. over and over again. And the only way to break that is to take some time on your own. But so many people don't want to do that because they cannot fathom. It is so scary to think of not being in a relationship or just, you know, being alone on a Friday night or whatever, whatever it is that just sounds so unappealing of taking that time. But when you actually take the time and you confront your fear of being alone, one you realize it's really not that scary after all. And two, it gives you the space to develop a relationship with yourself where for the first time you can underst you feel this sense of deep peace and contentment. And you realize, like, I've got everything that I need right here. And now I can go into a relationship from a place of empowerment and without that fear of being alone, like following me all around. And so If it's the right relationship for you, awesome. You get to enjoy it even more because you've got a solid relationship with yourself. If you realize, ooh, this isn't the right relationship for me, you don't stick around too long because you're afraid of being alone. Like you can leave these things. Like you just gain so much more power if you really aren't afraid of being with yourself. Yeah. Your boundaries get stronger because If you start dating somebody and it, you know, it's not the way that you wanted it to be, you don't feel like, I have to, I have to put up with this, or you know, I'm gonna let them walk all over me because I'm not worthy or whatever. Like you've developed that solid foundation within yourself and you can set boundaries that are going to feel like authentic. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also curious. Were there times where you felt like you were the bad guy? My husband didn't make me feel that way. He actually w the day that I you know, I under the, you know, when I was sneaking around moving my stuff into the that U-Haul box truck, he was so incredibly supportive and loving and got me a rose and a card. The day that I moved out and said, I hope that you answer the questions that you that you need to answer. And he wasn't able to physically help me move my stuff into the truck, which he would have, but he had just had knee surgery, so he was on crutches. and so he never made me feel like the bad guy. But, you know, as as he needed to tell his family and people in his life. They certainly weren't happy about my decision. And so I definitely became the bad guy in their eyes. and then it it just it really I only felt that way when somebody would let me know how they felt about divorce. And and it was and it was truly, it was like that was their own experience with divorce or their own feelings and opinions. And so I didn't I didn't I didn't struggle with that too much. I I mean, I definitely felt it, but like I said, I f the more and more time that I was living on my own and feeling like more and more peaceful about it and that I had made the right decision, like I was it it became easier to recognize okay, their feelings about what's happening with my life and my relationship is a reflection of them. Yeah. not a reflection that what I'm doing is terrible or awful. and so that helped. Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't be able to have that kind of insight. Like they would feel so much more guilt and shame over that when you but when you realize that it's other people's issues and it's not yours because You're just living your authentic life. I mean, there's nothing else that you could have done. What are you supposed to stay and be unhappy just for somebody else's happiness? Somebody that's not even in the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that I mean, that was my driving force. Like I that was just so important to me that I get to the end of my life and I can look back and say, I lived a life that was true to me, that was true to What my internal voice was is was telling me was the right path. And I knew I was not on the right one. Like I knew it when I was walking down the aisle. So it's not like I mean, that hadn't been just echoing in my brain for so long. And so that if your driving force comes from a place that's deep inside of you and you're really seeking to live in accordance with your values, that helps dramatically and tone. Toning out what other people think about your choices. Like but if you're someone who isn't really that tied in to why you're doing something and what your values are, you're going to be very swayed by what other people are thinking about you. I mean, and not to say I wasn't worried about it or impacted by it, but my my inner knowing was much stronger than what other people were telling how, you know, trying to get me to feel a certain way. About what I was doing. Is there anything that you could say to the women out there who might be on the other side of this where maybe they thought they had a picture perfect marriage and their spouse comes to them and says, This isn't what I want anymore? Like, what can you say to them just as they're grappling with this? You know, and maybe are, you know, understandably devastated. I would say that one, that's an incredibly difficult situation when you don't want this. Like I was the driver in this situation. That, you know, definitely is a easier place to be in than when you're the receiver of something that you do not want. But ultimately the hard truth is that. Whether you're married, no matter what situation you're in, you can't just assume that something is forever, right? Like we come into this world alone, we go out of this world alone, and and ultimately the most important thing, your journey in life is the journey that you take with yourself. And so what my husband, my ex and ex-husband did that was just such a gift was He it did not take him long but to realize that if the relationship didn't feel right and aligned for me, and if there was a big missing piece for me in this relationship, it it ultimately wasn't a perfect relationship for him. Because why would he want to be with somebody who was like, Hey, there's a big missing piece here? Or I am, I do not feel aligned in this marriage. Like That means that he's not in a great situation for himself either. And so I think the the it's hard, but like you have to accept that if the relationship was wonderful, it would be working for both parties. And if it's not working for the other party, you eventually have to come to grips with the fact that you can try to cling on to it or you can hold it with an open hand and what's meant to be will will happen. You know, that's the hard it's so hard. Like I have to continually rem remind myself like it's easy to to like you something great comes into your life or like you're used to something being in your life, whether it's a job or it's a relationship or whatever it is or a stage of life that your kids are at. And you just want to cling on to it because you feel like you're either your identity's wrapped up in it or you feel safety in it being there, or this is j you know, like, my gosh, I just like it this way. But like you really have to hold everything in your life with an open hand because it can literally change on a dime. And I find that the moment that you cling too tightly to something, that is when it can so easily get strangled and change and become far less wonderful than maybe it was when you could hold it a little bit looser. Yeah. So yeah, it's just that. It's like recognizing that you can try to cling and force or you can release and accept what is happening. And you never know where the road's gonna take you. Like i my situation could have ended up differently where maybe my journey was to come back to my marriage and be able to really choose it and and be in it without that internal conflict that I wasn't in the right place. That's not what happened, but it could have. But certainly I was never gonna get there if if my ex-husband had been clinging on to me for dear life. You know, please don't do this to us, please like it it never would have pushed me farther away. Yeah. And I think that that's a really good lesson and something that women really need to consider is do you want to be in this relationship if your spouse doesn't? Like what kind of relationship is that gonna be? And there's so much fear around it that, you know, I know I I can think of a few people in my head right now who were just clinging to it and clinging and clinging because of their own fears and they couldn't see the forest through the trees, you know? And so to hear your perspective, I think is really important because we hear so many women talk about like, you know, he left me. He, you know, doesn't want to be with me anymore. I think it's more common now for women to be the instigators in ending marriages that aren't working. You know, I I love that we are finally able to, you know, get through the shame and realize that we only have one life and we need to make it the best for ourselves, no matter what that looks like. And that is going to allow us to show up as our best self for our children and for our friends and and our, you know, work environment and all of those things. Yeah. Well, 'cause ultimately for your for my kids, I I just way back then when I was thinking this through and like what should I do? I thought, what would I do if they came to me with this quandary? Like would I tell them, you just gotta suck it up? Like I know that your vo internal voices screaming inside that like this is not the right place for you. It doesn't mean that that my husband at the time, there was no place for him in my life, but like we were, our relationship was not the right fit. Like we needed to transform that relationship. And it was even though it was screaming, like I'm not gonna tell them, ignore that. Like there was no way I would ever tell them that. So it's like why am I telling myself that? Yeah. And that's like a lesson that I I share with, you know, every mom that I work with. It's like, what would you tell your daughter going through this? Or what would your you tell your son if, you know, he was struggling with these decisions? And they always have the answer when it's with somebody else or their best friend or whatever. They they know what the right thing is, but it's so hard to look at yourself and you know, give yourself that same advice or, you know, want that same thing for yourself. Yeah. It's really interesting. Yeah, it is. And I mean, I think it comes down to you can easily tell someone else what you think that they should do because you don't have to face the fear of being alone for them. It's like, you'll be fine. This is the best decision. I believe in you. Goodbye. You know? Or if it's your kid, you know, you can be like, I'll be here right here with you when you I'll support you all the way, you know. But for some reason we feel like we do need to go through these things alone. And and granted, let's just be honest, like so much of this the the transition, like you do have to bear that burden by yourself. And that's what people are afraid of. Yeah. And what keeps them in situations that don't feel great. So yeah. If you can just confront, like I I I do have the strength to walk this path by myself. I will make it through this. I I will grow the skills that I need to be able to to do this. Like, it just takes so much pressure off. And you feel so much more empowered because you are able to live so much more free. Yeah. So what what do you want your girls to know then about your experience? Like, you know, have have you already had conversations with them? They're older now. You know, just about like what you had to do for yourself and what you want them to think of in their lives. We haven't d had deep, deep conversations about that yet. I mean, they're fifteen and thirteen now and I mean they certainly could handle those conversations, but I feel like when they're older and, you know, in have some context of having been in relationships and recognize the struggles of, you know, selecting the best people to be in relationships with and all of that. Like I I feel like that would be a juicier conversation and have more meaning for them. But I think what I want them to know is that like you're never stuck. Like I don't want them ever to be in their life or in a relationship, whether it's with a boyfriend or friend or a husband or whatever, where they're like, I just I feel so trapped here because they feel like there's one way to do life. You know, people you get married and then you the divorce is not an option and you power through. It's like I just do not believe that life is needs to work that way. Like I want them to be able to recognize that. There might be a relationship in their life that was literally meant to last for X amount of time because it was a learning experience for them. And then it might need to transition into something else. Like I just want them to know that there's no one right way to live and that they can grow the skills and have grow the courage that they need to. follow the opportunities that their life presents them and that it's just it's all okay. Like they can they can turn what society might perceive as a bad situation and make it into a great one. Like they I I just want them to feel like the most important relationship that they have to build is the one with themselves. And that if they do that, they can live a very free life. That's ultimately what I want them to see is that they are in charge of their own freedom. So when you got back on the dating Mart, like how was that, Mart? On the dating Mart, as my grandmother would say. Yeah. No, I mean, how was that? Because here, you know, you left your marriage, you left this amazing guy. What were you comparing him to every person that you were meeting? Like, how was that? I mean, you you hadn't been dating in you know, years. yeah. and the dating landscape is way different now than it was back in the olden days. Yeah. I I ended up meeting someone several months after my husband and I separated. So I didn't do dating apps or anything like that. I met him in the apartment complex that I was living in. And it was I knew when I separated from my husband that his emotional intelligence and his personality type and how kind and open he was, I knew that that was very rare. Like I I it's not like I had a million friends who are like, yeah, my husband's the exact same way. Like I knew that I was basically married to a unicorn. And so I knew that that was gonna be very difficult to replicate. So I didn't go into dating again thinking that I was going to meet somebody who was exactly like him. So I felt like that was kind of a gift to go in with like normal expectations. but it definitely was very interesting to be married for, I mean we were married for a 10 years. And then but but together for I think close to fourteen. And so to go back into the to dating was extremely scary. my goodness gracious, very scary. But also, you know, I just I just knew that like a part of my life I wanted to have a partner. Like that was just a part of my life that I wanted to be there. So I was open to embracing the fear of that because the thought of like I don't know, letting the fear keep me from dating again just seemed even worse than being afraid. but since that time, like I I just re have realized that my goodness, like I am a person who learns through relationships for sure. And I've learned a lot through my post divorce relationship. My I've had one primary one. but you know, just I've learned so much through relationships and through other people. And but I just I feel like that's such a gift. Like I when you when I when I said I want to live the most authentic life and I want to you know, part of that is developing the best relationship with myself and growing into the best version of myself, that means that you're going to be people are going to come into your life, whether they're a romantic relationship, work relationships, friendships that are going to help you achieve that goal that you say that you want. And so I've definitely had relationships that have been huge mirrors for me to show me, What are the things that I need to work on? Like what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? what what are the things that are getting away in the way of my growth? And that I, you know, you can look at that as like, gosh, that's such a negative. But, you know, I look at it as opportunities. Like I love those mirrors. And one really interesting thing that has come out of that is some of the things that my ex-husband and I used to argue over. And some of the things that he used to say, you know, like, I wish you could be more like this when I am trying to talk to you about something. And I would just not understand at all what he was talking about. Through some of my post-divorce relationships, I have been held up a mirror that have really helped me see exactly what he was talking about. And there have been a number of times where I have just reached out to him and be like, my gosh. Remember when you said, I just wish you would be more open to this, that, and the other? Like I've been able to say, I know exactly what you were asking for then. And I'm so sorry that I wasn't able to give you that then. I just didn't have the skills. So it's been, and maybe that's why we have such a great relationship, because we both have been able to come back to each other and say, I understand now what you were talking about. I understand now what you were upset about. I understand now what you were needing in that moment. And I just couldn't give it to you because I didn't have the skills. And and all of that post post divorce life has has helped me learn learn some of the skills that I just l didn't have in my marriage that, you know, would have helped me a lot if I had them at that time. But you can't go back and Rewrite history. So and I think that's a really important concept to understand is that when you're frustrated that your partner isn't giving you something, it might not be because they don't want to. It could be because they really can't. Yeah. At that moment. And, you know, luckily you learn from it. Your ex-husband learned from that. But not everybody's gonna learn those lessons because they're not. opening themselves up to to learning that and to figuring that out. But, you know, I I know it's a very common thing and I know that I'm guilty of that, like wanting somebody to be something and not getting it and being very frustrated and saying, like, but I'm telling you what I'm asking for and you're not receiving it. And they're just not capable of it. You know? Like they're just not. And that's You know, talk about acceptance. Like Well, that's when like when you have a great relationship with yourself and you are no longer afraid of being alone and you're in a relationship, you literally can say, Can I y I mean you've got two options. You can radically accept someone for who they are. you know, what what capabilities they have, what skills they've developed and what they haven't. So you can radically accept them, warts and all. Or you can say, I bless and release you. Like I I I'm gonna love you or I'm always gonna care about you, but this isn't the right relationship for me to have in my life. And and so you can walk away or you can rad radically accept. But Well, and really it's accepting them either way. It's accepting them like you know, I'm accepting you but, you know, goodbye. Or I'm accepting you and I can live with this. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but like and I think that that can be a really beautiful gift too, is saying like I know that I can't change you. I accept you for who you are, but that's not what I'm looking for in my life. Yeah. And I wish you, you know, I wish that you find someone who that that's gonna be okay with, you know, and not that there's like, I'm not saying there's something wrong with you, but it's like that isn't aligned with who I am and I accept you and and I'm loving you from afar now. Yeah. I'm like pushing you away. No, I I'm loving you from afar because I honestly I think everybody wants to be accepted. Everybody, you know, wants People to see the real them and accept the real them. And you can accept the real person, but that doesn't mean that you need to stay with them. Right, exactly. But when you are when you're afraid of being alone, it's amazing how you will justify to yourself why why their behavior or the their way of doing something or the way that they are or whatever skill set they do or do not have is, I think it'll be okay. It'll be okay. Yeah. Yeah. But then you start to grow lonely in the relationship. And I think that that's worse than being lonely outside of a relationship. When you are sharing your home with someone and you feel alone, like I just personally I I think there's nothing worse than that. I would rather be alone by myself and figure that out and like. Do my own lessons, be comfortable with myself, you know, not have to share my closet, not have to pick up after anybody. You know, I'd rather be alone that way than be sharing a a life with someone and feeling alone inside. That's just seems like a very sad way to l to live. But no judgment. Everybody has got, no, I mean, really, it's everybody has to decide what works for them. You know, there's a lot of people that are still in unfulfilling relationships because they want, you know, they want companionship or they want the financial security or, you know, whatever. Like there's many, many, many reasons why people stay in unfulfilling relationships. And if they are okay with that, that that's fine, you know, no judgment. But if you are someone that is like, you know. staying awake at night thinking like I am in somebody else's life. This does not feel like my life. This is not what I envisioned for myself. Then you owe it to yourself to like get curious about that and think you know, like, you know, do I want to investigate doing something different? You know, I mean, can you imagine like shoving all that stuff down like longer than you did? No. No. I mean it was difficult to do for as long as I did. So no. I I mean it's I don't know. I don't know how people do it, but some do. Like everybody has their reasons for you know, what they how they choose to live. But that was for me, that is like no, totally intolerable. Yeah. Was there anything that surprised you that you hadn't anticipated throughout this whole Process. I think the biggest thing that surprised me was how strong of opinions people have about divorce. I I just had no prior experience with that. And I I have not been around like a divorce does not run. in my family on either side at all. So I didn't even have my own opinions about div divorce because I just w wasn't something that we even talk needed to talk about. and so I was very surprised at how people reacted to my decision to leave my marriage. That just literally was like w I mean it just I l I honestly thought that what I needed to come to grips with was how I felt about my own separation and divorce. But that turned out to be like 25% of it. 75% of what I had to deal with was other people's perceptions of it and their other people's reactions to it, which was mind blowing to me. But I mean, understandable once I thought about it, it's like, okay, of course people have big opinions about this, but I just wasn't prepared with how to handle it. And then how to make peace with other people's feelings about my choices on my own time. Yeah. So was that surprise. To make peace with other people's opinions? I think it was initially because I hadn't done that much work around really exploring how societal expectations was really affecting my life. Like it was just one of those things that I'd never I'd never even stopped to think that they were. You know, it was just like I didn't even think about it. So it's like, like I had just kind of begun exploring like, like what has what has society's expectations about, you know, what I'm supposed to be doing as a woman and what I'm supposed to be doing as a mom and what I'm supposed to be doing as a Career person and what I'm supposed to be doing as a wife and a sister and all these things. Like I had just begun exploring that that was a thing. and and how those things had impacted the choices that I'd made from the time I was a little kid. And so I was so new to that way of thinking and hadn't, I mean, I was like maybe ankle deep and exploring that when boom, I moved out and started the separation and then all of a sudden I was in the swimming around at what felt like in the deep end of other people's expectations. Yeah, it was it took up a lot of my time in the beginning. Mm-hmm. do you think you're less concerned about what other people think of you now? A thousand percent. One, 'cause I'm forty nine. And I think when you get into your late forties or whenever that that's when it hit for me, but Maybe it's later or earlier for other people, but I don't give a rip what other people think anymore. Like literally at all. It is the gift that comes with age. It is. It is such a gift. And also I've, you know, walked kind of a non-mainstream path in some ways. You know, obviously I'm not like some crazy like there are plenty of people who have way made made way bolder moves than I've made, but But I've done enough. I've veered off the the mainstream path enough to have to come to grips with what other people think of me and and ultimately realize, like, hey, when I spend too much time thinking about that, I'm ultimately not ha any happier. I'm way happier when I just get clear on am I doing the right thing for myself? And do I feel good about my choices? And the more that I've really worn that path in. And feel comfortable there, then that's helped a lot. And I yeah, just why I just don't that's such a waste of time now. Yeah. Thinking about what other people are like stewing on what other people think of you as a waste of time. And also like shoulding all over yourself. You know, like I should do this, I should have this, I should be here, I should have a partner, I should have like we can drive ourselves crazy with the shoulds. It's just like whatever feels good to you. is what is the right thing to do. As long as, you know, obviously you're being a decent human being and, you know, like taking other people's feelings into account, at least in some respect. But thank you for coming. You're welcome. And and talking. I think the first question that everyone has out there that's single and divorces can they have your ex husband's phone number? Because he sounds so incredible. I I guarantee you, as you were talking, there are moms out there who's like, I wonder if he's still single. I wonder where does he live? He's in Chicago. He me he is. He's so wonderful. He really is. man. Well, thank you. This was really an eye opening conversation. And I think that, you know, you're saying the things out loud that, you know, some people just needed to hear, you know? Like I do think your story is inspirational. So I Appreciate you sharing it. you're welcome. I'm glad I could.