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Redeeming justice in a broken culture · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:27
  Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to the Ten Penny Files.
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  Sherry Tenpenny.
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  Well, now let's get started.
• 2:17
  Today's conversation is with Chris with a Christian professor, researcher, writer, and speaker, Dr.
• 2:24
  Christine Crenshaw to talk about her book, Redeeming Justice, Reclaiming God's Vision for Doing Good in the World, the book that transforms the negative connotation of social justice into a framework of biblical justice.
• 2:40
  Christine, thank you so much for joining us here today.
• 2:43
  Welcome to the 10 Petty Files.
• 2:45
  No, thank you for having me.
• 2:46
  It's an honor.
• 2:47
  Thank you.
• 2:48
  You know, you're you open your book in the preface and talk about a story of witnessing a human trafficking of a 13-year-old girl in plain sight at an airport in Athens.
• 3:01
  Why were you compelled to start your book from that point?
• 3:05
  Yeah, you know, there are so many angles I could have started with.
• 3:08
  There's also a personal story of when I had an injustice happen to me that's in the book.
• 3:15
  And um the editors encouraged me to start with that.
• 3:18
  And I said, you know, I think I want to start with something that's not personal, but that's global, something that really will resonate with people as an injustice that is happening again, as you mentioned in plain sight, and it's happening not just in America, but it's happening all across the world, and that is human trafficking, just reminding the church body that yes, there are times when, you know, kind of like the progressive left or a woke mob may come after you, but that's a little less relatable and um a little less common than when we see um injustice on a bigger scale.
• 3:55
  So um, and it's also a story that my husband and I talk about frequently.
• 4:00
  It happened a couple of years ago, but not a month that goes by that we don't think about that when we were confronted with um witnessing a girl being trafficked and doing everything we could to intervene and realize that this um I hesitate to call it an American sense of justice, but it is absolutely a Christian sense of justice, where you you re you recognize the imago day in someone and it compels you to right the wrong that you see in front of you.
• 4:32
  So um that I wanted to kind of start off with something that would draw the reader in to, you know, this is what injustice looks like, and this is what it looks like for the church to try and intervene.
• 4:43
  This is what it looks like for the church to take an activist stand in combating this issue.
• 4:49
  Well, I think starting with a personal story and the story, the way that you wrote it, it just draws readers in to what you're talking about about biblical justice and about social justice, redeeming justice from the very beginning.
• 5:02
  Throughout your book, um, redeeming justice, you spend a lot of time talking about a biblical worldview.
• 5:10
  Can you define that for us?
• 5:12
  Yeah, so um a biblical worldview, sometimes interchangeably used with the term Christian worldview really relies on a framework that is the entirety of the biblical narrative.
• 5:24
  It's the creation, fall, redemption, and restoration narrative.
• 5:28
  So creation being we start with Genesis one.
• 5:30
  We are created in his image.
• 5:32
  We are created male and female, we are created for a purpose.
• 5:35
  The fall represents the fall of humanity when Satan slithers up in the garden and tricks Eve and tricks Adam into thinking that they can be like God and it is the downfall of humanity.
• 5:48
  It's the reason everything is broken.
• 5:50
  And so we know that the rest of scripture is God's redemption story.
• 5:55
  Old Testament is God's redemption story, the fulfillment of God's law for salvation comes in the form of Jesus.
• 6:02
  It's the gospel.
• 6:03
  And then we see that the culmination, the conclusion of the um the creation fall redemption story is the restoration of heaven to earth.
• 6:15
  We see that God's plan is to not only redeem us through salvation, but also to restore, to restore what the fall broke.
• 6:24
  Um, and so to create on heaven um on earth as it is in heaven.
• 6:28
  And so that's the framework, the creation fall redemption and restoration framework that I use to explain biblical justice.
• 6:35
  And it's a framework that social justice cannot lay claim to because social justice is inherently meant for society, for the temporal, but biblical justice is meant to point people towards the eternal.
• 6:49
  There are a lot of different worldviews that are out there that are impacting society and particularly the American society right now.
• 6:55
  You talk about that a bit in your book.
• 6:57
  Um, share some of those views with us.
• 6:59
  Yeah, so you know, it's actually kind of funny, Dr.
• 7:02
  T, because some of it got cut.
• 7:04
  You know, that's the nature of writing a book.
• 7:06
  You you get your book back, and you're like, wait, I had more to say than just this.
• 7:10
  Let's not the ones that made the cut.
• 7:13
  We talk about, I think most significant to your listeners would be postmodernism.
• 7:18
  So postmodernism is a worldview that comes after modernism, after modernity.
• 7:23
  Um it starts to emerge about the 1940s.
• 7:25
  It's definitely prevalent about the 1960s.
• 7:28
  And I think your listeners will be aware of, you know, there were some real significant shifts that happened in the 1960s.
• 7:36
  Things like critical theories made their way outside of higher education and academia and it made its way into the public square.
• 7:44
  What are critical theories?
• 7:45
  Well, they're based on Marxist ideology.
• 7:48
  They're based on this idea of an oppressor and the oppressed, um, that someone must be a victim, and then therefore they were victimized.
• 7:57
  The idea of not just looking for equality, but equity.
• 8:00
  Things that are really untenable with the Christian narrative.
• 8:04
  Um, postmodernism, unfortunately, also introduced us to relativism, the idea that your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth, and truth is relative.
• 8:14
  And we know that that's not compatible with the biblical worldview either, because God says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody gets to the father except through the son.
• 8:24
  And so we see that there is a capital T truth that he is referring to.
• 8:29
  Um, and so I kind of walk readers through that.
• 8:32
  You know, the first part of the book is this cultural moment.
• 8:34
  How did we get here?
• 8:36
  And the second part of the book is worldview.
• 8:39
  It's really underscoring for the reader the importance of looking at all of life, but to particularly social justice through a Christian or biblical worldview.
• 8:47
  And then the last part of the book is well, what does this mean for engaging social justice?
• 8:54
  What does this mean for redeeming and reclaiming what has been hijacked by society?
• 8:59
  But was originally God's plan for how to do right in the world and do good in the world.
• 9:05
  So yeah, so that's why I give a lot of attention to the worldview part, because if we don't recognize the lens that we're looking through, the glasses that we're looking through, then I don't know that we're able to rightly see everything else that we're engaging.
• 9:20
  That's so well stated.
• 9:22
  You know, I've interviewed a lot of authors that have written books on the educational system and the new woke educational system and the problem that starts with preschool and goes all the way through graduation of college.
• 9:35
  I've never heard it explained quite that clearly about the critical views and where it comes from Marxism.
• 9:41
  So thank you for that.
• 9:42
  It was really informative.
• 9:43
  That was really good.
• 9:44
  And in fact, you have a title of a chapter in your book called How in the Worldview Did We Get Here?
• 9:50
  Um, and you say, what do you have to say about how we actually got here?
• 9:55
  And I know it's a long history, but um uh you've you've taken us.
• 10:00
  That direction for a reason.
• 10:01
  So take us, take us through that process.
• 10:04
  Yeah, you know, so I would say a lot of my colleagues are really harsh on the enlightenment era.
• 10:10
  And I do absolutely philosophically see how enlightenment was sort of like the beginning of the thought creep away from a Christian worldview.
• 10:19
  Absolutely.
• 10:20
  But I am much harder on postmodernism, which would be more of the Frankfurt school of thought, um, which was 1920s, really like this Marxist group in Frankfurt, Germany that started critical theories.
• 10:34
  And if we think of critical theories as sort of like the hub on a wheel from this critical theory comes things like Marxism, comes things like um LGTBQ narratives, things like even feminism.
• 10:48
  I tell my students, you know, I'm college professor that I can track with first and second wave feminists.
• 10:53
  But after that, third and fourth wave feminist, it goes so off the rails with critical theory that it's not relatable for me.
• 11:01
  It's not compatible for me as a Christian.
• 11:04
  And so I I really hone in on, you know, how in the world we did we get here with looking at post World War II, um, the 1960s and the idea of like Nietzsche and God is dead and we, you know, the hubris that we had, again, really kind of slow thought creep from enlightenment.
• 11:25
  But I think it's it's it's tangible and measurable by the time we get to about the 1960s.
• 11:31
  Um, when we see higher ed, you know, we see a lot of different Christian universities start to um denounce, renounce their Christian faith.
• 11:40
  We see a lot of um just push back to God in the public square by then.
• 11:47
  Um, you know, and it was kind of a reaction, I think, to the rise of Christianity in the 1950s.
• 11:53
  You know, we looked at, you know, communist Europe, um, and we said, you know, that's not what we want for America.
• 12:00
  And we started to intentionally integrate faith more.
• 12:02
  In fact, in God we trust really doesn't get stamped on our currency and in our, you know, kind of like public identity until the late 1950s.
• 12:12
  Well, you've got higher ed, and and you know, I would argue that it was always there.
• 12:17
  I mean, you can't read the Declaration of Independence or even the Constitution and not see that our founding fathers were clearly working from a Christian worldview, even if it was, you know, kind of deist of a worldview, which it maybe it was.
• 12:30
  It was still a Christian worldview.
• 12:31
  They had no other worldview in mind.
• 12:33
  It's not like they were trying to operate under pluralism or a Buddhist worldview or an Islamic worldview.
• 12:39
  It was a Christian worldview.
• 12:41
  Um, by the 1960s, there is a pushback to that Christian worldview, particularly coming from higher ed.
• 12:50
  And so showing how, you know, things like Roe v.
• 12:52
  Wade and feminism, um, different, you know, DEI initiatives that start to emerge kind of 1990s.
• 13:01
  I think we actually did it pretty well in the 1980s, but you see, by like late 1990s, 2000s, you know, we start having things like quotas on um admissions for college, race quotas uh to be specific.
• 13:15
  And that's when I think we start to really see, okay, we're not even trying to integrate faith.
• 13:21
  And then it becomes a hostility towards Christianity.
• 13:25
  So walking the readers through, you know, for people who are just your average person, they're not in higher ed and they're wondering how is it that we cannot define what a woman is?
• 13:36
  How did we get here?
• 13:37
  That our Supreme Court, that, you know, we've got doctors who are testifying before Congress who are unwilling to define the biological realities of what male and female is.
• 13:48
  How did we get to a place where we think it is okay to medically transition children?
• 13:56
  You know, I mean, there is an argument to be made if you're over 18, but children are a protected do no harm class.
• 14:03
  So I'm trying to walk the reader through.
• 14:05
  We didn't just wake up one day and get here.
• 14:07
  This was a slow thought creep towards where we are now.
• 14:11
  And we have to be intentional about reclaiming that ground.
• 14:14
  Doesn't have to be forceful, but it has to be intentional.
• 14:19
  That's really again very well stated, because you're right, it has been a slow creep, you know, probably from even like the 1920s, you know, when we had all of the um all of the things that started in that period of time and then move forward about um uh planned parenthood and um all of the things that happened during that time, all the way up through the 60s, when we start, we, as you mentioned, we get rid of rope, we get the throw the Bible out of the church, we throw prayer out of the church, uh, we start with heavy duty push on abortions.
• 14:52
  I mean, it has been a very long creep, which brings us now to the Z gen or the Gen Z generation, those that are 15 to 30 years old.
• 15:02
  And you say in your book, Redeeming Justice that social justice has become a professed religion to them, and that virtue signaling, signaling, virtue signaling is more important than being virtuous.
• 15:15
  What does that all mean for today's youths that are so depressed and have you know suicidal tendencies, isn't it now that you know teens and and in their the Z, the Generation Z people have a higher uh suicide rate than any other generation, because they just are so hopeless about the future and are more about social justice than they are about God spirituality and the biblical worldview.
• 15:39
  Yeah, so two things on that.
• 15:41
  So, yes, um, that's definitely true, unfortunately, and even the CDC data, which I know can be controversial, but even they released a report in 2021 discussing the mental health of everyone in America after lockdowns, and no one was doing well.
• 15:58
  In fact, the only demographic that even held steady were those who attended church regularly, and they defined regularly by one to three times a week.
• 16:07
  So even the CDC admitted that the only demographic that is holding steady for mental health were people who were in church.
• 16:15
  Um, you know, we know as Christians, it's because it's, you know, it's the Holy Spirit, it's God, it's Jesus.
• 16:21
  Um, they might say it's community.
• 16:23
  Who knows?
• 16:24
  But yes, that report was eye-opening.
• 16:27
  And then I'm not sure if you follow Jonathan Haidt.
• 16:29
  He does a lot of um looking at what technology has done to this generation to Gen Z, but technology has impacted their mental health.
• 16:38
  And so that, you know, it's interesting, Dr.
• 16:41
  T, because the data is now split, and I'm excited about this, but the data is starting to come out in 2025.
• 16:46
  So very recent, and we'll track it in 2026, is starting to see a resurgence and revival of youth in Gen Z who are interested in church.
• 16:56
  That has not historically been true.
• 16:58
  We have been in a decline.
• 16:59
  Pew Report, Gallup Report, Varna group has all shown a decrease in interest in church, particularly in younger generations.
• 17:08
  And most of us would say that is strongly correlated to mental health, as even the CDC admitted.
• 17:14
  Um, so what's starting to, what we're starting to see, and I and I'm encouraged and I hope that this trend continues, um, particularly for males.
• 17:23
  Males are coming back to the church, and that's true in Western countries.
• 17:27
  I actually just read a it wasn't a white paper, it was just an article of an academic who's a Christian in Sweden, and he says that even for the first time in his life, he's starting to see an interest in all things spirituality.
• 17:40
  Um, you know, so being interested in spirituality is different than being interested in the person of Jesus, but it's a step towards an you know, non-secular country.
• 17:50
  And so for something that has been so secular for so long that there are people who are interested in church that are starting to go to church.
• 17:58
  I think tells this sub-narrative that we're experiencing that we've come to the end of ourselves.
• 18:04
  You know, we all experienced COVID and that shook our world.
• 18:08
  You know, we've all experienced AI, it's got its perks and it's got its concerns.
• 18:14
  And I think we're asking, what does it mean to be human?
• 18:17
  What is the T loss, which is the theological term for like the end of all of this?
• 18:22
  Like, what does this all mean?
• 18:23
  So I'm encouraged that I'm starting to see Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
• 18:28
  I've got two Gen Alpha kids who are in junior high.
• 18:31
  And they really are interested and hungry.
• 18:34
  And so when I wrote this book, I was writing that, you know, the Barna research shows that yes, this generation is more interested in social justice than any other generation that they've ever recorded.
• 18:44
  So when you look at boomers and you look at Gen X and Millennials, they're just marginally interested.
• 18:49
  But Gen Z, you know, they're the ones who say, you know, global warming is affecting my mental health, you know, and we can't even decide if global warming is real, but they will actually say it impacts their entire mental health, um, which is concerning.
• 19:05
  And um, and it's a lot of it, or like they won't go to a church unless it's LGTBQ friendly, which is not compatible with most orthodox doctrine.
• 19:13
  So it's it's problematic because they really are interested in things that are social justice because it's taken the place of religion.
• 19:21
  It's become their religion.
• 19:23
  My hope is that they're starting to see, oh my goodness, there's not a solid truth to these narratives, which is also what my book tries to point out, that these are circular, that you can't say that it's justice to allow a male to identify as a female when we know that that's an injustice to females.
• 19:42
  That's an injustice in sports, it's an injustice in locker room.
• 19:46
  And so I think that Gen Z is starting to wake up to that.
• 19:49
  And they're starting to ask, well, then what is truth?
• 19:52
  Because I thought it was all of these critical theories, and it's not.
• 19:56
  Um, but yes, the data does show that they are very interested.
• 20:00
  And social justice.
• 20:01
  And so what I say to parents and to grandparents, um, because some people are like, well, I'm not Gen Z.
• 20:06
  And Gen Z actually doesn't read very much.
• 20:09
  So I knew that I was writing this for Gen Z, but really it was going to reach parents, it was going to reach grandparents.
• 20:14
  I encourage them to give a copy of this to their to their grandkids, to their kids and be intentional on discipling them because we have a discipleship crisis.
• 20:24
  We need the older generations who are solid, who know the Lord, who are firm in their faith to disciple the younger generations because they're confused.
• 20:33
  And we need people who who know truth and aren't confused to get in their world.
• 20:38
  Yeah, that's really true because our so many, so many of our churches have become so lame.
• 20:44
  And they have they our churches are who are supposed to be the guiding principles of biblical biblical worldview and what the Bible says have faded and drifted away from that to become, like you say, accepted of the LGBTQ lifestyle, which is totally against what the Bible says and all of those different things.
• 21:05
  Um mentorship from older people is really important.
• 21:10
  How much do you think when you talk about like the younger people, the Gen Z that we has been defined as those 15 to 30 is kind of the age group of Gen Z.
• 21:20
  That how much do you think the impact of Charlie Kirk had on their resurrection of getting back into faith and believing that if we if there's a problem, if we have we have discourse, the problem is not you go over there and I go over here.
• 21:34
  The problem, what we the resolution is more conversation.
• 21:38
  Let's talk this through.
• 21:39
  And what turning point, at least, at least while Charlie was with us, um, was the impact that that was having on that generation.
• 21:47
  Yeah, you know, I can't wait, Dr.
• 21:49
  T for the data to come out on that.
• 21:51
  Right now, we just have sort of like preliminary like polls um showing that there's been a resurgence, like that the Sunday after his death, we know was the highest record of church attendance since pre-COVID.
• 22:03
  I mean, really, uh yeah.
• 22:05
  So we we know that it is it's making an impact.
• 22:08
  It's making people question again.
• 22:09
  I think going back to, you know, what is what is true, what is reality.
• 22:14
  Um, I think the injustice of his death, um, which everybody that's in my like-minded circle would agree that that was an absolute injustice.
• 22:23
  And I, and I do hear people on the left like admit that that was an injustice, it was unfair, which I I thank them for being charitable, because I know that's hard for them to do sometimes.
• 22:32
  So I thank them for being charitable there with that.
• 22:35
  But we know that it was an injustice.
• 22:37
  And so I think that what Gen Z is asking themselves, it's rocking again that narrative that they had built, which is conservatives are bad and the right is bad, and they're the oppressor.
• 22:48
  And then when you see that this man who, you know, even if you didn't like the things he said, there is no evidence that he incited violence.
• 22:57
  There's no evidence that he was a malicious person.
• 22:59
  I think everything points to he wanted to have conversations that led you to truth, truth about democracy, truth about Christianity.
• 23:09
  And so I think that did it was disorienting for people.
• 23:12
  I think they were, you know, they felt disillusioned by it and they, you know, headed back to church.
• 23:17
  I even have a uh local story of a young lady that I've heard of, you know, who I personally had discipled and you know, went to church and she fell away and was having a crisis of faith.
• 23:28
  And the Sunday after his death, she too was back in church.
• 23:31
  So anecdotally, I've seen that, and then you know, the the numbers are starting to show that.
• 23:36
  So I think though, what that was is a catalyst for okay, they're hungry, they're interested, they're questioning what society has told them.
• 23:45
  And again, I would kind of bring that back to this is where you know, older millennials, Gen X, uh, boomers, like we need them to stand firm on what is true and to invite them into discipleship because they're confused.
• 24:00
  There's no way they have answers that we don't have, you know, and that's one of the beauty, the beautiful things about becoming a parent is you realize, oh my goodness, I have been entrusted with teaching you truth and discipling you.
• 24:11
  And my kids push back on me all the time, but it's so rare that they actually had an answer that I didn't have.
• 24:18
  And so I think the same is true for Gen Z.
• 24:20
  They're they're grappling, they're confused.
• 24:23
  We've got better answers, and God has the answer, and they're asking for it, even if they don't know that they're asking for it, they are.
• 24:31
  I think that's really true.
• 24:33
  Because um, look back even in the last 10 years, you know, if they were like five years old, they grew up in chaos and confusion.
• 24:41
  They grew up without certainty with with nobody with now, no clearly defined black and white, right and wrong, up and down.
• 24:51
  You know, there's there was confusion and chaos that they've grown up with.
• 24:55
  So it's not really a surprise as they get into their 20s and their 20s that they're really questioning well, what is the truth?
• 25:02
  And this whole, you know, truth about my truth, your truth, and all this other stuff, that's just not truth.
• 25:07
  That's just opinion.
• 25:08
  You know, it just ends up to be opinion.
• 25:10
  What is the difference in when when they talk about social justice uh between social justice and political activism, and how does that compare with biblical justice?
• 25:21
  You know, one of the greatest distinctions between social justice and biblical justice is that biblical justice recognizes that we need a savior, that we need Jesus, that we recognize injustice is caused by sin.
• 25:36
  It's caused by again going back to the fall of humanity, um, is caused by an enemy who comes to kill, still, and destroy.
• 25:43
  So we recognize that the answer to injustice has to involve Jesus.
• 25:49
  It has to involve the savior.
• 25:51
  And we also recognize that the method that Jesus has given us is to partner with the church, the big C church.
• 26:00
  So it could be activism, it could be work through the local church, it could be partnering with global ministries, but it's any um entity, any organization, charity that recognizes we're not just trying to end homelessness and hunger and human trafficking, that we are also offering people water that leads to eternal life.
• 26:23
  So that is a big difference between social justice and biblical justice.
• 26:27
  Social justice is just trying to right the wrong that they see in society.
• 26:32
  There is no recognition of equal ground as being sinners, that there's always one bad guy who is an oppressor and one good guy who is oppressed, which is not a model we see in scripture because scripture tells us we're we're at any given day, we're all the oppressed and the oppressor, which is why we need a savior.
• 26:53
  Um, social justice also relies on critical theories, it's circular, it's things like you know, if you really want to do justice, then you'll allow there to be a drag queen story hour.
• 27:04
  But when you recognize that's against God's righteousness, then that can't be biblical justice.
• 27:09
  So in short, social justice looks to just bring good to society, but it doesn't offer anybody uh an actual sanctification transformation process.
• 27:20
  And that's part of the title of Redeeming Justice is that it redeems us when we when we are the recipient of biblical justice, it sanctifies us, it transforms us.
• 27:31
  And when we're engaged in that work, God is transforming and sanctifying us.
• 27:35
  Whereas that's not true with strict social justice work relying on secular narratives.
• 27:41
  Wow, that's a great breakdown and again another incredibly clear explanation, which leads us up to a good time for us to take a short break.
• 27:50
  So hold that thought.
• 27:52
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• 27:56
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  America outloud.news, liberty and justice for all.
• 34:54
  To talk about her book, Redeeming Justice, Reclaiming God's Vision for Doing Good in the World, the book that transforms the negative connotation of social justice into a framework of biblical justice.
• 35:05
  Let me tell you a bit more about today's guest, Dr.
• 35:08
  Christina Crenshaw.
• 35:10
  Dr.
• 35:10
  Christina Crenshaw is uh a Christian who holds a PhD in education from Baylor with an emphasis on American literature from Baylor University.
• 35:20
  She has 20 years of experience as a professor, researcher, writer, and speaker.
• 35:25
  She is an assistant professor at Arizona Christian University and a fellow with the Cultural Research Center.
• 35:32
  She has held faculty and leadership positions by at California Baptist University, Baylor University, Dallas Theological Seminary, and Southwest Seminary.
• 35:41
  And all of her work, she says she's found the most joy in her roles as a wife and a mother.
• 35:48
  Christina, thank you so much for joining us back here again today.
• 35:52
  It's been just a delightful conversation.
• 35:54
  Um, the next question I want to ask you about is that you say that Christianity compels us to integrate faith in all spheres of influence.
• 36:04
  How do we do this?
• 36:06
  Yeah, that's a that that is a great question, and that is a hard one.
• 36:10
  It is much easier to answer that outside the realm of politics.
• 36:14
  I think someone, in fact, a friend of mine, Dan Darling has written a pretty good book on how to do that politically.
• 36:20
  But the, you know, the the case that I make here is as Christians, we don't have the opportunity to just sit back on our laurels, that Christianity is an act of faith because it actively seeks to redeem and restore.
• 36:34
  Um, it's a partnership with the Lord in doing that to bring him glory, and it's uh it's an understanding that we have in us the Great Commission that we're called to go out and share and to restore places that are fallen in society.
• 36:49
  Um, there is, you know, a certain group of people who like to ascribe to kind of like what's called a benedict model, where we're just going to retreat from society, we're going to create our own enclave.
• 36:59
  We see that within different denominations.
• 37:01
  It's a fringe group.
• 37:03
  Um, but largely most Christians agree that it is our responsibility, it's our honor, it's our privilege to go out into the world and to find places that again really are broken, that are inequitable, where we see people who are being marginalized or persecuted, and there are real places to do that.
• 37:24
  Again, you know, we've talked about human trafficking.
• 37:26
  Um, that for me is is an easy example of where you know we are called to abolish slavery in all forms.
• 37:34
  Historically, contemporary examples.
• 37:37
  Um, and if you look, one of the things I do in the book is I give examples of like William Wilberforce or people who are at the beef, the front lines of ending the slave trade movement, the church and the church being Christians, the global body of Christ has always been in the front lines.
• 37:53
  We talk about Mother Teresa, we talk about um examples of uh hospitals.
• 37:58
  A lot of the reasons our hospitals are, you know, St.
• 38:01
  Mary, St.
• 38:02
  Catherine, is because the Catholic Church took very seriously caring for the poor and the sick at the turn of the that you know 20th century.
• 38:11
  And so it gave us the Red Cross, the salvation army.
• 38:15
  So it's reminding the church that this is our call to go into these places that we see injustice and to bring Christ, you know, bring to bring our good works, but to bring Christ as well.
• 38:30
  You know, the Bible is all about doing good works.
• 38:32
  That's how we earn our rewards, right?
• 38:35
  It's not how we're saved, but that's how we earn our rewards.
• 38:38
  So it's always about go forth and do good, you know, be like Jesus.
• 38:42
  You know, Jesus never looked behind him to see how many people were following him.
• 38:46
  He just moved forward and continued to heal the sick, you know, bring sights the blind, etc.
• 38:53
  How do you think the Bible defines or would look at social justice as it is, as it is carried out today in our society?
• 39:01
  Because social justice, as you mentioned, is a kind of a synonym for social activism, and it really does not have goodness and kindness all woven in through it.
• 39:12
  It's really just kind of the opposite of that.
• 39:14
  But how would the Bible look at social justice as it is carried out today?
• 39:20
  Yeah, so I think fundamentally, a lot of the narratives within social justice are simply just not true.
• 39:26
  And so again, it's not compatible with truth.
• 39:30
  Um, even, you know, it's been interesting to see the people who have rallied around um biological realities who aren't even Christian, who you know would say, I'm not a Christian, but I can define the difference between male and female, where I'm not a Christian, but I too don't really want males playing on female teams or males and female locker rooms.
• 39:52
  And so I think fundamentally there are a lot of narratives within a lot of false narratives within social justice that.
• 40:00
  Cannot be reconciled with truth.
• 40:02
  So little T by biological truths, and then of course, like big T theological truths.
• 40:08
  And so that would be an example, I think, where, you know, biblical justice would look at social justice and say, hey, I appreciate your heart to do right and do good, but you're not actually doing right and doing good because you're basing your activism on something that is fundamentally not true.
• 40:26
  And so that would just be an easy example of where social justice isn't compatible with biblical justice.
• 40:33
  Um, I do think that there, because even within my realm of anti-trafficking work, I have met people who are not believers or um, you know, they're either atheist, agnostic, Hindu, um, and they want to end human trafficking as well.
• 40:48
  And so I say in the book that there is enough common grace to do common good work, you know, and find common ground.
• 40:56
  But for people who are Christians, this is the important distinction.
• 41:01
  We know that it's an incomplete version.
• 41:04
  Social justice is an incomplete version of justice if it does not include Jesus, if it doesn't include an opportunity to lead people closer to Christ.
• 41:14
  Um, and so that's you know, it's a call to the church, a reminder.
• 41:17
  So I don't negate that there are people doing great work.
• 41:20
  You know, there's a lot of people doing social justice work who are doing more harm than good.
• 41:24
  But there are people I think who really, you know, I can, you know, name a number of people who are in the public square, you know, even Jonathan Height does not confess to be a Christian.
• 41:34
  He's, you know, agnostic.
• 41:36
  Um he's a professor at NYU and he's doing great work on technology and how to protect kids from technology and how to make sure that they're not getting addicted to pornography, how how to keep girls from having anxiety disorders, you know, with his data.
• 41:52
  And so I'm so thankful for that justice work he's doing.
• 41:55
  But if you were to ask him, hey, do you feel like that this needs to, you know, include a redemption and restoration, that there needs to be some sanctification and transformation, I think that's where we wouldn't be able to align.
• 42:10
  So again, common ground, common grace, to do common good work.
• 42:14
  But because he's not a believer and I am a believer, there is a distinction in why we're doing it and for what purpose.
• 42:22
  That's good.
• 42:23
  Oh, what are some of the essential ingredients, do you think to navigate American culture today through a biblical worldview?
• 42:31
  I'm sorry, through a biblical worldview and to uh to obtain and uh exist from a place of biblical justice.
• 42:41
  Yeah, so I think going back to um the idea that that we're sinners.
• 42:46
  So social justice, you know, there's usually just one person who has uh been the aggressor, the oppressor, that sort of a narrative um when recognizing no, we are all sinful humans, all in need of a savior.
• 43:00
  Um so that's like an it's a really important distinction point because you really can't bring justice until you recognize that you need salvation.
• 43:11
  So that that's one distinction.
• 43:13
  Um, another place is making sure that it aligns with God's word.
• 43:17
  So even though it may seem compassionate to a mother who is, you know, um uh pregnant with a baby that she doesn't want or that she can't care for to um conduct an abortion, we know that that's not compassionate or that's not compatible.
• 43:34
  It's also not compassionate, it's not compatible with God's word to protect the innocent and the vulnerable and to do good um to to everyone to do no harm and to protect um all life and that it's murder.
• 43:49
  So, you know, kind of going back to recognizing that biblical justice starts from a place that we're all sinners in need of a savior.
• 43:56
  It's also can we transpose what we're calling injustice onto God's word and is there alignment?
• 44:04
  And if there's not, then it's not going to be biblical justice.
• 44:07
  Biblical justice, you know, I walk through there's different, you know, the Bible talks about different forms of justice.
• 44:12
  There's distributive justice and uh retributive justice, there's different forms of justice that God talks about, particularly in the old testament.
• 44:20
  Um, you know, ultimately he says vengeance is mine.
• 44:23
  But there is this idea that like justice is is getting what you deserve.
• 44:28
  It's not always grace.
• 44:29
  Um, but when we're talking about social justice, and that's you know, kind of where I walk us through to social justice, usually what people mean is I want grace, I want grace, I want mercy.
• 44:40
  And so that's pointing people back to the only way you can have grace and mercy is through someone who can offer you grace and mercy.
• 44:48
  And society can't ultimately do that for you, um, maybe in a temporal sense, but definitely not in an eternal sense.
• 44:56
  From a Christian perspective, and even though we talked about earlier before the break about the upsurgence of people that are returning to church and trying to find the real truth, it seems as though there are uh just a massive spread of people that are agnostic, probably more agnostic than atheist.
• 45:15
  Agnostic for the listeners is more like I just, you know, I can't see a God.
• 45:19
  I just don't know that there's anything, any proof of it.
• 45:22
  Atheist is there is no God, and I'm just against whatever it is that people try to present to me on that.
• 45:28
  And um, but there's because when you talk to people who are non-Christians, they um they really can or let me rephrase that.
• 45:36
  When you talk to people that are Christians, you can kind of put them in the buckets.
• 45:40
  Either A, I'm a really strong believer, I go to church every week, I bring, I read the Bible every day and things like that, or I'm kind of a sit on the bench Christian.
• 45:49
  Yeah, I believe in God, but I'm not a participation, I'm non-participary.
• 45:54
  And then the third was, no, I don't believe in God.
• 45:56
  I'm just like agnostic.
• 45:58
  I just don't think there is such a thing as a God.
• 46:00
  Look at the chaos and the evil in the world, if there really was a God that really wouldn't, you know, that he really would show himself differently.
• 46:06
  When you look at that, why do you think there's such distinctions in those ways?
• 46:11
  And people are very clear.
• 46:13
  If you ask that question directly, um, they're very clear and upfront about which of those three buckets that they fit into.
• 46:22
  And maybe it's just my experience with um, I don't have children, so I'm not around a lot of kids and teenagers and things growing up, but there just seems to be so the bucket of agnostic seems to be bigger than most.
• 46:35
  Would you agree or disagree with that?
• 46:36
  And how would you how would you address that?
• 46:39
  Yeah, I don't know exactly what the data says on that.
• 46:42
  So I'll speak to what I do know data says.
• 46:44
  So I work with um George Varna, who does the Christian worldview inventory, the biblical worldview inventory.
• 46:52
  And he would say that only four to six percent of professing Christians actually hold a true biblical worldview, that they can actually pass his litmus test.
• 47:03
  Um, and it's you know, been vetted, it's a it's a great test.
• 47:07
  What the qu what the test looks at are things like, do you believe that there is just one way to heaven and it's Jesus?
• 47:13
  And people, I mean, a lot of Christians are like, no, they waffle on that.
• 47:18
  Like, oh, there's multiple ways.
• 47:19
  How could I tell my Hindu neighbor that there's just one way to heaven?
• 47:23
  Um, things like, do you believe that we are sinners?
• 47:26
  People don't want to admit that, you know, that they're a sinner.
• 47:29
  So they end up being docked, these worldview points, like really only four to six percent of Americans pass this.
• 47:36
  It's really pretty shocking.
• 47:37
  So I think to your question, it's a lack of biblical literacy.
• 47:42
  And, you know, we can, you know, point fingers at parents or we could point fingers at the church, but whatever, wherever the breakdown is, there has been a breakdown on a transfer of mentorship and discipleship.
• 47:54
  And so this younger generation, I see it, I saw it in the classroom with millennials, and then I see it even more of Gen Z, even though they're hungry and they're on fire and they a lot of my students want more of God.
• 48:04
  They don't really know the Bible, they don't really know truth.
• 48:08
  They're not able to answer questions like, is Jesus the only way to heaven?
• 48:12
  Things like that.
• 48:12
  They're just very fundamental to the faith.
• 48:14
  Um, and so I don't know if there's more of a rise of agnostic or atheist, but what I do know the data shows is there is a rise of people who just identify as spiritual.
• 48:26
  And so I think that that is kind of what you're getting at.
• 48:28
  And it depends too on the demographic of where like there are more people who identify as I'm just spiritual over in like West Coast of America, um, and more people who are agnostic or atheist on the East Coast.
• 48:41
  And I think, you know, sociological data is fascinating on that.
• 48:45
  There's just, you know, we know from history, there's a big difference between people who, you know, grow up with a perspective and framework on the East Coast and those who grow up with a perspective and framework on the West Coast.
• 48:57
  I think that's also why we've had like Jesus revivals, kind of more California, because they are more kind of spirituality sort of people and God works through that.
• 49:06
  But I think what you are seeing in the data does show is people who just don't want to commit.
• 49:11
  Um, they want to just be spiritual, that they believe that there's some sort of a theist deity up in the sky, but they can't really define what that is, and they want that to be true, but but it comes down to a lack of biblical literacy, a lack of discipleship is what I think um we're seeing.
• 49:30
  So even though we're remained to worship, we want there to be a God.
• 49:34
  I think the past hundred years, we've tried to replace that with critical theories and Marxist ideology and social justice narratives.
• 49:44
  We're coming to the end of ourselves.
• 49:45
  We recognize those are failing us, that we do need a God and a savior.
• 49:50
  And so again, that's why I think it is time for those of us who really do walk with the Lord to step in and say, I I want to disciple some young people in the
• 50:00
  Church.
• 50:00
  So I can look, you know, local church.
• 50:02
  It can look like a larger ministry.
• 50:04
  You know, you've got a large platform.
• 50:06
  So even what you're doing is pointing people towards the truth.
• 50:11
  So well, it's what the what we've been told to do, right?
• 50:15
  It's, you know, go forth and share the good news across the world.
• 50:19
  You know, in your book, Redeeming Justice, towards the end of the book, you give new numerous examples of how Christians have contributed to good in society.
• 50:29
  Talk to us a little bit about that.
• 50:30
  And why did you save that for last?
• 50:33
  Yeah, you know, I probably could have written an entire book just on that.
• 50:37
  You know, I felt like I needed to go the first two sections to get to that.
• 50:41
  But it really is my defense for the global historical church.
• 50:46
  I have seen, I don't know if this has been true of what you've witnessed, but from 2020 to 2023, there was such an attack on the church.
• 50:55
  Some of it was maybe deserved criticism, things where we would see abuse that was swept under the rug, or you know, just moral failures of pastors.
• 51:05
  It would come out that they were having affair.
• 51:07
  And I can see how that would rattle someone's faith.
• 51:10
  Absolutely.
• 51:10
  But then the other attacks were just petty and harmful.
• 51:14
  And this was my attempt, my humble attempt to say, I don't think you realize the shoulders that you're standing on.
• 51:22
  When you look at the way that, you know, the the medieval church for all its faults, and we can think of several faults, but it has sent out so many missionaries to to Christianize the West.
• 51:37
  And then when we move into, you know, like abolitionist movement, William Wilberforce, and um Ann Bradstreet and all of these people who like really love the Lord and were doing work um in order to move the needle away from injustice and to do it for the glory of God.
• 51:55
  We get into you know civil rights movement.
• 51:58
  I talk about uh Mother Teresa and her ministry.
• 52:02
  Uh so there are a lot of examples.
• 52:04
  I you bring up Salvation Army, um, what are some of the other ones?
• 52:08
  Hospitals, Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, places where believers said it's not okay that there's homelessness, it's not okay that there's hunger.
• 52:17
  It's not okay that there's human trafficking.
• 52:19
  So A21 campaign as a modern example of ending human trafficking.
• 52:23
  And from a Christian worldview, we said we're going to step up, we're going to end this injustice, and we're going to offer them Jesus along the way too, because that is who ultimately transforms and sanctifies.
• 52:35
  That is the ultimate form of justice is offering someone Jesus, because in that is grace and mercy.
• 52:43
  Okay, we're coming down to the last few minutes of our time today.
• 52:46
  And you're just so articulate with the way that you explain these things.
• 52:49
  It's just been lovely having this conversation with you and getting clarity and understanding about justice, social justice, biblical justice.
• 52:58
  What are the closing remarks you'd like to leave our audience with here today about your biblical worldview and also about your book, Redeeming Justice?
• 53:08
  Yeah.
• 53:08
  So on a personal note, one of the stories I share is I think I titled the chapter, The Church has saved my life.
• 53:14
  Um, and I talk about how I grew up in a broken home, divorced parents, moved around a lot.
• 53:21
  Um, really uh a childhood that I wouldn't really want for anybody.
• 53:26
  And the stabilizing force in my life um was the church.
• 53:32
  It uh led me to the Lord, it provided community, it provided a sense of identity.
• 53:37
  And so one of the things I I kind of purlay that and dovetail that into the importance of the church body, that we weren't meant to be social justice activists and warriors on our own accord.
• 53:50
  We were meant to walk with the body of Christ.
• 53:53
  And it's through the strength of, you know, again, like local church.
• 53:57
  Um it could be, you know, kind of a connected body of Christ across the globe, but really staying rooted and doing that sort of good justice work with a family, um, that you weren't meant to do this alone or isolated, that the body of Christ is your community.
• 54:15
  You know, Jesus is your identity, Christian worldview, biblical worldview is your framework, but you can't do this alone.
• 54:21
  So it's a call, and that was kind of my my ending um encouragement to your listeners is don't try to do this alone, walk with the body of Christ that um we were, you know, everybody has we're different heads and feet and ears and eyes.
• 54:36
  We're meant to be, you know, it's what scripture tells us that we're all part of this body of Christ.
• 54:40
  So do the work together.
• 54:42
  That's beautiful.
• 54:44
  Where's the best place that people can get your book, Redeeming Justice, Reclaiming God's Vision for Doing Good in the World?
• 54:52
  Where's the best place for people to get that?
• 54:54
  I'm told um through Amazon.
• 54:56
  I'm told to say that.
• 54:57
  So I think that um Amazon tracks the data better than other websites, but um I think you can get it even at Target, you can get it on different Christian um websites.
• 55:08
  My publisher Harvest House also has a landing page that will take you to a book purchase.
• 55:14
  Um, but so I think it's pretty widely available.
• 55:18
  Um, but maybe Amazon, so they'll track the data for me.
• 55:22
  Hey, that's great.
• 55:23
  Where can people follow you, your work and and get more understanding of of you as an author and as I as a teacher in in all of these seminary places that you teach?
• 55:36
  Yeah, so uh I'm mostly on Instagram.
• 55:39
  That is where I hang out the most on social media.
• 55:41
  I'm also on Twitter X, but um I find that environment to be not quite as nice as Instagram.
• 55:48
  So if your listeners are on Instagram, find me there first.
• 55:51
  But I do every once in a while pop in to Twitter X and you know, usually if I'm posting some data or something interesting, an article I came across.
• 56:00
  But if they want to just connect Instagram, if they want to follow some updates, then Twitter X.
• 56:06
  And what is your name on Instagram?
• 56:09
  I believe it's Christina Crenshaw.
• 56:12
  Yeah, Christina underscore crenshaw.
• 56:14
  So Christina, it's been delightful listening to you talk and explaining some things that, like I said, I've interviewed a lot of authors on this topic of so not so much on social justice in terms of biblical justice, but on uh, you know, the wokism and the different things that have happening, and particularly in our educational system.
• 56:34
  But you added some definite clarity and some definitions that I think are really, really needed and uh said it so carefully and so clearly.
• 56:44
  So thank you so much for your time.
• 56:46
  Thank you so much for being here with us today.
• 56:48
  And thank you for all of the followers that come and join us here every day or as often as you can on the 10penny files.
• 56:53
  So with that, I want to close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:56
  I close all my podcasts with, whether they are live or prerecorded, which is Romans 12, 12.
• 57:02
  Rejoice in hope, be patient in trouble and be persistent in prayer.
• 57:06
  Remember to lean into God and trust him for everything because he won't let you down.
• 57:10
  We'll see you here tomorrow on AmericaOut Loud.news or any place that you log into podcasts and we'll see you live on iHeartRadio.
• 57:18
  You can also listen at all the other podcast places that you that you subscribe to, and we'll see you.
• 57:23
  We hope that you have a good rest of your day, and we'll see you tomorrow or the next time on the 10 Penny Files.
• 57:30
  Goodbye and God bless you.