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What's Going On with the US TikTok Ban? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Never told your prediction of iHeartRadio, and today we are
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: once again thrilled to be joined by the amazing, the astounding,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: the astonishing Brute Todd.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Welcome back, Britie.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: We love Thank you for having me. I am excited
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: to be back.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, we are as always glad to have you back.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: We were talking about this a little off mic before.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: But happy belated birthday.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Thank you?
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Did you do anything fun or how have
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: you been in general?
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: I have been good if my voice sounds a little
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: bit rasp beats, because my friends and I did birthday
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: karaoke over the weekend and there was lots of screaming
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: and singing. And I sometimes get this say where I
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: don't do a lot of karaoke, but I love karaoke
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: and I'm that person who, after a few drinks insists
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: on singing a ballad. And my friends got lucky because
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: the ballad that I wanted to do they did not have.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: So yeah, friends one bridget zero.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: Wait, so what is your go to karaoke song? This
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: says a lot about you.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Oh God, I think so. It depends on for a ballad.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: I wanted to do an Amy Winehouse song. I wanted
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: to do Me and Mister Jones, which is a favorite
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: of mine, which they didn't have, which I feel like
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: is like practically a hate crime to not have a
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: robust Amy Winehouse selection at karaoke.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, how dare you?
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: What are your go to songs?
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: I am a nineties like, I'm the gen X millennial
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: person who has to hit my nineties hits so that
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: it will include TLC Destiny's Child if they have Wilson Phillips,
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: which I there was a TikTok video about if you
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: want to get slash millennials to stop arguing or stopping
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: their tracks, do a Wilson Phillips hold On And I'm like, well,
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: that's rude and right, but it's okat. I didn't need
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: that because I'm also very aware of as much as
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: I would love to do a Whitney Houston track, and
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: we usually do like dance with somebody, I want to
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: dance with somebody. I know her range is way out
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: of my league. Although past host Caroline, she does an
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: amazing condition of that song.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: I believe it, actually I can see it.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but I'm I'm that girl that
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: I love all of those. Then you gotta throw some
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: Fiona Apple in there. You know it did some Backstreet
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: Boys or for me in sync, I feel like those
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: are my go too.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Sorry I'm Backstreet Boys. Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of embarrassed. My mind different.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I have a very vary range of karaoke songs. I
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: like to do. Mulan Man, that's a good one.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: I will say. That's like all the producers, like our producers,
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: producer Andrew, producer Dylan, like, they will get together and
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: Ramsey will get together and do a whole rendition of
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: that song.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: It was quite fabulous. They do a great job.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I think at a certain point, I'm not very good
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: at karaoke. I love it, but I'm not very good.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: And at a certain point I started thinking of like,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: what are songs I know people will sing, and those
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: are the songs that I request Now, So I do
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: like the Pokemon song, which I loved Pokemon, but I
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: like people love it and I know the lyrics are
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: easy enough.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: My big one is I do Ludicris get Back.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Of course from Georgia.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: People like are like you have to do it before
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: karaoke is over, like that's the one I'm known for.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: But then I do. I just like so many songs
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I want to singer, like sad songs are they're long songs,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and I don't think those are good karaoke songs.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: They're not good karaoke songs. But truth true friends will
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: let you do a ballad or two like that's like, yes,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: I agree that good fun karaoke to watch is karaoke
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: where it's a silly, fun song, fast paced, everybody is
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: singing along. But I don't know, like you should be
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: able to have your little moment where you do you
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: demand silence so you can sing Amy Winehouse.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: Yes, I'm no good. Amy Winehouse is one of my
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: favorites as well.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: That's a good one. That's a really good long one.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: Sometimes a country song is good.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: My partner I had practiced. We wanted to do a practist.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: We promised we wanted to do a duet because it
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: was actually tennically both of our birthdays we have the
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: same birthday, and so right we were gonna do Love Shack.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: We listened to Love Shack ten times. We had come
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: up with like dance moves and I don't know if
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: you know that song, but there are like different vocal
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: parts and we had really practice and then they didn't
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: have it after all that.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: What okay?
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: First of all, hello University of Georgia. Be ifty dude Georgia.
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: Those are my people's like saying that or are im?
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: How dare you? Why would I not?
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: But yeah, those are challenging songs because they're their vocals
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: are pretty intense and the fact that they didn't have
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: it there and you practice, all right, can we just
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: do you have? Like? You should just do it online?
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: They do it for a TikTok video because there's lots
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: of karaoke apps out there, or if you're like any
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: you can buy your own machine machine.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Yes I do. And as lights.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: It has like like it's really embarrassing, but it has
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: like the button you press and it goes.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: House.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: We come to Washington, d c.
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: Oh, Yeah, we're gonna do it.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: Is it big?
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: No?
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: No?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah? A sign you can't see you, but you can't
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: see listeners. But it's like a smallish box.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, we're doing this.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: I'm so excited to get this done. She's going to
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: carry this on plane. But if you're doing it for TikTok.
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: We're gonna need to do that very quickly because ah.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, this is a great segue, masterful segue. Samantha
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: did it, and that is I mean, I feel like,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: I think we might have talked about this before, but
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: I feel like we have to get back into it
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: because there's so much going on, and that is what's
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: happening with a potential maybe sort of TikTok band in
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: the United States.
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: Have you all been following this, Oh, I'm glad you
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: brought this up because I was actually going to do
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: this as a Monday mini in this conversation because this
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: is going to affect a lot of marginalized people and
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: we have to talk about it because this is also
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: this is very controversial. But I'm also confused because I
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: don't know where to side because there's so many people
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: on the spectrum for and against that I'm surprised by.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those issues where you have
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: very strange bedfellows, Like it's bipartisan legislation and so, which,
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: you know, for any kind of topic, to have folks
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: on either side of the aisle agreeing right unanimously is
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: a little bit unusual. Some of the people who are
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: coming out against it, in my opinion, are not necessarily
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: who you would imagine. So I agree, And I guess
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: all of that is to say, I had a very
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: difficult time figuring out where I stood on this legislation.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Wasn't until pretty recently that I was like, Okay, I
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: feel like I have my opinion made up, but it
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: took me a while to get there, exactly because of
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: what you described, Sam.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I feel like we should we should get
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: into it, because again I don't really use TikTok, but
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: I did follow it because I was curious about what
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: would happen, Like, oh, if this happens, yeah, then what's
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: what's next.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: It's going to set a big precedent. It talks about
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: who's who has power of what, who is actually getting
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: the information that people are saying they're getting the information,
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: and for me, for me and you, bridget who are
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: actually on TikTok. Are we seeing an algorithm that is biased,
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: that TikTok is trying to get us on their side? Like,
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: there's so many questions here.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: These are all great questions, so let's get into it.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: So basically, we're calling it a TikTok ban, which is
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: not like incorrect, but it's not technically accurate. So this
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: legislation that we've seen moving through the House in the
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: last few weeks is called protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: controlled Applications at and it wouldn't technically ban TikTok specifically. Rather,
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: this legislation, if passed, would block social media apps that
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: are quote controlled by a foreign adversary in the United States.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: Right now, TikTok is owned by the Chinese based parent
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: company byte Dance, So when it comes to TikTok, what
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: that would mean is that byte Dance would be forced
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: to sell TikTok to an American owner in order to
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: operate in the US. If this legislation were to become law.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: That is kind of a tricky thing. TikTok CEO shows
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: Too has repeatedly said, we're not going to do that,
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: We're not interested in selling. Will never happen, And if
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: this legislation were to become law, they would have to
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: do this in about six months, which is not a
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: ton of time. I'm certain this would be a very
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: complicated transfer of power. You know, we're talking about potentially
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: like a multi billion dollar deal here, and so forcing
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: TikTok to do that in six months is it's like
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: a really tall order, so much so that it is
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: essentially a TikTok ban, even if it's not a ban
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: in a technical sense.
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: So recently watched the video on several different TikTok creators,
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: as well as the press conference that the Chinese leaders did.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you saw this, essentially saying it's
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: actually written in the contract that byt dance cannot by
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: law sell away from China, like they that was always
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: a part of the contract, that's always been there, and
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: to the point that the government, our government knew that.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: So it makes me like they I and everybody's accusing.
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: So this is an actual ban without them saying band
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: trying not to be the bad guys exactly.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: So I keep seeing people being like, well, it's not
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: a band, it's not a band, Okay. Maybe it doesn't
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: use the word ban, maybe it's not a band in
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: the most like hyper technical sense, but functionally this is
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: a band, right, Like, I completely agree with you. And
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: even that alone is one of these things that kind
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: of makes me wonder about how this legislation came together.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: You know the fact that they are going out of
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: their way to have a carve out to say it's
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: not really a band when functionally it basically is.
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: Right literally saying this is these these are your options
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: to sell or be banned, and then then the actual
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: company being like, well, no, it is in our contract
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: that we can't sell.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: So and you knew this.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: You were putting us in a rock, you know, the
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: rock and a hard place in that situation of like, no,
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: we're just going to be out, and the Chinese knows
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: that the US, as many users as there are, are
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: not the only users exactly.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: So that actually brings up like a pretty clear next
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: question of whether or not there is a someone who
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: would buy this right like TikTok. It would probably be
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: a multi billion dollar sale tip to acquire TikTok, and
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: there's not really a lot of people who have emerged
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: who are you know, in a position to buy this. However,
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: former Trump administration Treasury Secretary Steve Menuchin said last week
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: that he's actually putting together an investor group to buy TikTok. So, yeah,
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: a former Trump administration official could own it. Now I've
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: put that into a little bit of context. That would
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: mean that Elon Musk owns Twitter, Manonchin would own TikTok,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: and that would really be a huge change in our
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: social media landscape. In my opinion, I don't think that
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: would be a change for the better necessarily.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: Right, we already know what's happening with I misinformation on
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: Facebook and who dictates all of that, which is very
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: concerning in itself. So that means all of I mean,
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: I will say. Someone said, and this is a whole
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: different conversation that Reddit is becoming the new safe space.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Oh that's so interesting because I've actually found myself. I
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: was like a Reddit power user back in the day,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: and then I stopped using it so much. I started
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: using Twitter and Instagram more. Now I'm back on Reddit,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: and there's something about it because like, for me, I
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: really need to have a reliable text based social media
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: platform as much as I like TikTok, you know, I
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: need to. I need to. I'm I'm a words person,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Like I like to read words. I like to write words.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Being on camera on video, which is a different thing.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: I like watching other people be on video and be
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: on camera. But I'm a words person and I think,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: like so, Reddit has kind of re emerged as a
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: place where I'm spending more and more of my time
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: and it's actually feeling pretty good.
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think I don't think you're the only one.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: Like I said, people are calling that kind of the
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: safe space because if they're actually well monitored and you're
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: going to uh, you know, the subreddit that is specifically
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: for you, that it has been well moderated in an
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: affair and like objective manner, and peopleally really like trusting
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: that system more now because they're worried about TikTok. But
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: back to like we need to talk about what exactly
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: is this legislation that they're trying to pull.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: So it passed the House last week and now it
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: goes to the Senate. President Biden has already said that
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: if it passes the Senate, he will sign it in law.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre said that the
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: Biden administration is really looking to the Senate to act
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: quickly on this legislation, and so like it could be
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: something that moves fast. However, I will say that as
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: quickly as this legislation passed the House, passing the Senate
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: is looking like it might be a little bit more complicated.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: A bipartisan group of senators is already sort of signaling
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: that they would not necessarily be down for voting for
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: a TikTok ban. For instance, Senator ran Paul described the
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: bill as a quote draconian measure that stifles free expression,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: tramples the constitutional rights, and disrupts the economic pursuits of
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: millions of Americans. Senator Ed Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: argued that the privacy issues that the bill is meant
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: to be, you know, addressing, exist far beyond TikTok. So
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: it does kind of seem like it might not be
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: the kind of thing that is quickly and unanimously passed
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: in the Senate. It might there might be some some
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: pushback there.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what I understood. Let Schumer, who is the lead
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: in the Senate, was saying that he is in no
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: hurry to even look at this bill because they have
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: been kind of inundated with a lot of opposition. Again,
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: and this is one of those moments when you said
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: Ran Paul, Ran Paul and Marjorie Taylor Green all opposing
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: this makes me think that I'm on the wrong side
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: if I sort of agree with them.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean listen, so you're exactly right. Chuck Schumer
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: didn't really have anything to say about the legislation and
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: the way that he's I forget how he said it exactly,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: but like to me, it signaled I am not taking
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: a position on this, and I'm in no hurry to
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: make us a priority. That's what it looks like to me.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: You're so right that the people who are for and
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: against it is so because usually it's like whatever Margory
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Taylor Green is for, I am probably against and vice versa. Right,
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: But you know, even I think last week former President
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: Trump came out against a TikTok band, which that's a
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: reversal of previous positions, right, So it's like it is
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: very difficult to figure out where different elected officials stand
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: on this and use it's difficult to use that as
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: a barometer for where as an individual folks listening should stand.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: I think there's so many conversations because we've already talked
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: about the original band that we were talking about long
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: tap ago with a show to coming in front of
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: the Senate testifying, and then the xenophobic comments that happened
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: time after time and time after time, and this is
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: a whole different conversation that I have to have with
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: myself as an Asian person because we have talked, we
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: haven't talked much about the fact that there's a lot
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: of misinformation and there's a lot of kind of conspiracy
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: theories that the US is xenophobic tactics from the past,
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: and that communism is not good. Don't get me wrong
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: in all of this, but the level of evilizing and
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: condemning of the places like China and North Korea again
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: not good. But a part of that conversation is because
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: they're not Christian enough. That has been a part of
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: that too. That makes me wonder how much of this
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: is a colonized idea of what they expected China and
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: these other countries to become and when they are of
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: power because they are not Christian nations? Is that that
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: is that part of their what they see as evil
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: of these places and then being successful.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, you really can't have a conversation about the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: way this legislation has been moving without talking about xenophobia,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: and I wish that wasn't the case, but it is
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: American elected officials who are making that the case. Like
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: I wish we could have this conversation about the merits
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: of this legislation. However, when you have elected officials in
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: hearings making blatantly xenophobic and anti Asian comments to TikTok CEO's,
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: you have to talk about it like it is. It
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: is just inherently heard the conversation. It makes it so
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: that you cannot talk about the legislation on its own
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: without talking about the sort of like rhetoric that you're
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: describing here, and it really does us a disservice. I think,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: because the American people deserve to see the merits of
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: legislation you know discussed. I think that any person who
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: is a CEO of the company as big and as
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: influential as TikTok should be comfortable being grilled in front
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: of elected officials, and the American public should have a
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: sense of, like, where what they're thinking about. However, when
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: you retreat into these harmful anti Asian xenophobic stereotypes and
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: claims and theories, you are doing everybody at disservice because
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: we don't get that right. We're talking about the xenophobia,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: and we have to talk about the xenophobia because you
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: brought it up, you injected it into the conversation, does
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: that make sense.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: The entire time the entire time, and calling them the
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: enemy state. Again, don't get me wrong, I know that
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: the history is complicated. The Chinese government has done a
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: lot of bad things. The US government has done a
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: lot of bad things. And then this is like the
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: back and forth of like what is happening? But then
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: also it kind of comes down to the fact that
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: again maybe because I do enjoy TikTok and I do
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: go through and like love my dog videos, I love
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: my cue little animal, I saw honors the'ed adorable, I
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: want one, but like all these things and making it
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: seem like if they shut down TikTok, and it's like
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: that is shutting down the voice of the people. And
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: it's kind of interesting to see what TikTok is doing
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: and trying to respond to the governments like us against
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: them like seemingly totally.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: So some of y'all might have gotten like big alerts
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: when you tried to open TikTok the last few days,
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: urging you to call your member of Congress and tell
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: them that you do not want a TikTok. Band I
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: actually didn't get one. Maybe maybe they know that I'm
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: in DC, and like there's not a member of Congress
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: that I could call. I could call Eleanor Holmes Norton,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: but she doesn't get a vote, So like there's really
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: they're maybe they're like, we're not gonna waste our time
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: getting bridget with this ad. But the alert reads stop
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: a TikTok shut down. Congress is planning a total ban
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: of TikTok. Speak up now before your government strips one
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: hundred and seventy million Americans of their constitutional right to
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: free expression. This will damage millions of businesses, destroy the
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: livelihoods of countless creators across the country, and deny artists
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: and audience. Let Congress know what TikTok means. Over the weekend,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: they also did a push notification that folks might have
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: gotten to their phones pretty much saying the same thing.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: It honestly does sound like this is working. Congressional staffers
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: say that their phones were like ringing off the hook.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: One house GOP staffer told Politico that it was so
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: so bad. Our phones have not stopped bringing their teenagers
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: and old people, saying they spend their whole day on
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: the app and we cannot take it away.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: You know, one creator was talking about the fact that
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: they actually said there was a lot of millennial women,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: a lot of millennial women calling in. They were kind
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: of surprised how many millennial women and when a middle
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: aged and millennial women were calling in talking about this
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: was going to affect their business.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Actually, Essence just put out a really really interesting
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: article about how many specifically black women entrepreneurs and creators
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: were really using TikTok to promote their businesses and like
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: find a foothold and in ways that they were unable
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: to do on other platforms, and how much a TikTok
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: ban was concerning to them and their livelihoods economically, and
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: so that doesn't surprise me at all. I also wanted
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: to make one other comment about that, which is that
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: I think that TikTok has a reputation of being like
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: a young person's app, and certainly it has a lot
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: of young users. However, the average TikTok users age is thirty, right,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: and so that's like I would call a thirty year
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: old young, but like a thirty year old votes, you know,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: like these are people who, you know, we're not talking
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: about a children's app. And I think that perception is
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: really not correct, and I think that's the perception that people.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: Have right, which is an interesting because I know the
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: original idea of TikTok was younger users, much younger. It
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: was like the dance app, which I like dancing. I
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: want to see people dance. I can't do those moves,
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: but I want to see them. But it was it
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: was interesting, and I know that that's the big conversation
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: of like who is using it, who this is affecting,
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: and who is able to get on it. Of course
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: we've already had that conversation with like how quickly that's
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: changing to and how quickly they will shadow band many
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: a marginalized communities. But that's the hair there totally. And
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: so just one other thing about these these push notifications
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: and stuff. I have seen a lot of people say
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: that TikTok urging users to take political action is evidence
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: enough that the app is bad. That they're like demanding
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: that teenagers call their congress person or whatever, and that like,
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: you shouldn't have an app telling young people what to.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: Do or whatever. But this is so common for tech
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: companies to do. Both Uber and Lyft have sent out
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: similar push notifications asking for users to contact congress or
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: do certain things. And so TikTok is not the only
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: tech company or app that has done this kind of thing,
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: and people trying to act like this push notification action
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: was completely beyond the pale. It's certainly not. It happens
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: all the.
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: Time, right, which I feel like if I remember correctly Twitter,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: different Twitter accounts would have the like you know, you
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: could have the one link and they would often do
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: like at least like petitions. I remember during a lot
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: of the Black Lives Matter stuff and many of the
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: murdering of the black community, they would have links and
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: petitions that would happen through Twitter. So none of these
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: things are new. I'm wondering again, and I know this
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: is that bigger conversation of like, maybe I'm just too
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: caught up in some conspiracy theories. But some of the
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: conversations that have happened with the pro Palestinian movement and
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: what's happening there and many consider genicide, I consider a
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: genocide happening there, that TikTok has been one of the
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: biggest platforms to actually have conversations about that and through
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: that because they do have like the link tree that
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: do have petitions and alerts and all of these things
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: like that has happened, and I know there's a conversation
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: about whether or not that's part of this motivation.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Totally. I have so much to say about that. I
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: will say first, I think a lot of the conversation
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: around how conversations about what's happening in Palestine are unfolding
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: on TikTok. I think a lot of the conversation about that,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: to me feels a little bit ageist and condescending, Like
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: it's this idea that like, oh, well, if young people
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: are you know, if they feel a certain way about
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: what's happening in Palestine, certainly is a Certainly that is
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: a problem, and it is it is TikTok's fault, as
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: opposed to saying like, well, maybe young people are smart
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: and with it and like looked at looked at the
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: information available to them and came to a conclusion, and
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: you know, treating that with the respect that it does.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: I see a lot of older elected officials sort of
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: handwringing and being like, oh, well, the only way that
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: our kids could come to this conclusion is that if
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: this app is like tricking them into it, and so
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: there have been a lot of interesting conversations about how
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: that fits into this legislation to potentially ban TikTok, this
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: concern about where young people are finding themselves when it
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: comes to conversations about Palestine.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I guess this brings us to a question. Then I
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: feel like the answer is kind of clear. We've kind
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: of talked about it ear last. A part of it's clear,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: why is this happening in the first place, bridget.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: It's a great question. So if you take these lawmakers
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: at their word, if you take the name of the
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: legislation at its word, lawmakers say that TikTok is a
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: national security risk because it's owned by China, and that
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: the app app could be compelled by the Chinese government
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: to manipulate public opinion because you know, they are you know,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: TikTok does have this like super powerful algorithm that they
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: can use to boost certain content, suppress certain content, that
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: they could collect mass data on Americans or even spy
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: on individual Americans. And so that's sort of like what
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: lawmakers are saying they are trying to prevent with this legislation.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, but is that actually the thing?
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: So I should say here, this is a little above
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: my pay grade. But as somebody who has done a
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: lot of looking into this and had many, many, many
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: interviews on it, this threat, my understanding, this threat is
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: just purely hypothetical. You know, the Intercept is published a
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: piece about how when pushed on these threats and like,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: when asked, you know, what is the threat? Is the
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: rest smoking gun? The FBI uses phrases like oh, China
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: could do X, y Z if they wanted to, China
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: could potentially do right, it seems to me that there
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: is not a smoking gun or like hard evidence that
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: this is happening or there's a plan for this to happen. Now,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: you might be listening and saying like, well, why should
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: we have to wait until there's a smoking gun? Why
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: should we have to wait until there's evidence that this
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: is happening? And that's a fair point, But as of
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: right now, they would be passing this law to deal
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: with a hypothetical or potential threat that currently there is
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: just not evidence that's going on.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: One of another creator that I was looking at has
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: actually posted I think a recent list showing that the
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: likelihood of information being farmed and Facebook and Amazon and
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: Instagram were top three while TikTok was actually a number twelve.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Yes, so I'm so glad that you brought that up.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: The fact of the matter is is that we have
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: a social media and digital landscape that is just rife
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: with bad actors and corporate interests and operations who are
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: doing bad things, in some cases breaking the law to
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: make money off of us and to exploit us. That
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: is just a fact. I don't like it, nobody should
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: like it, but it is what it is. And so
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: this legislation to me, really seems like it's cracking down
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: on TikTok for having the same problems and same issues
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: that Facebook, Google, Twitter all have, for exploiting us in
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: the same potentially exploiting us in the same ways that
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: every other social media platform has, but regulating them because
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: it's China. And this is my opinion, I think that
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: this is really more about the United States wanting to
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: remain the top dog when it comes to big tech, right,
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: Like I think I saw some joke that was like, oh,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: like China wants my data, don't they know that's reserved
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: for Mark Zuckerberg. I think that's exactly what's going on here.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I think that lawmakers have figured out that by you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: being tough on TikTok, they can one you know, act
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: tough on taking down China, and two make it seem
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: like they are sort of being tough on big tech
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: while actually doing nothing when it comes to regulate big tech.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Because just the fact of the matter is big tech
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: companies enjoy a pretty cozy relationship financially with a lot
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: of elected officials, and so if they were actually to
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: talk tough big on American big tech, that conversation might
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: get a little bit thorny. But by regulating TikTok in
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: this way, they kind of get the points and the
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: appearance of being like we're taking on big tech or
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: really doing nothing about taking on big tech.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, we know that they let some laws drop,
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: some policies drop in order to protect tech companies and
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: their liability way back when, and have been doing so
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: for a minute. But I think it's interesting and I'm
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: sure you've seen this Jeff Jackson, Representative Jeff Jackson, who
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: actually really made his headway in TikTok, Like his videos,
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: his like common sense takes seemingly in Congress really like
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: had him going like really high in the polls and everybody.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: People were talking about him being president, him being so
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: great for like being common sense and all these things,
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: and then he got called out for voting yes to
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: the TikTok ban, which made him like this the people
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: that followed him made that for him, and then him
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: coming back on saying that, you know, I don't think
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: it's going to be banned. It's not gonna be banned.
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: It's fine, it's fine. No, I'm just a little concerned
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: because you know, what's in my ear. What's in my ear?
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: And then on top of that, people showing why some
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: of these possibly like the conspiracy theories about why and
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: this the different people who are paying the lobbyists who
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: are coming through who are actually pushing this narrative really hard.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's some of these aren't conspiracy theories, right,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Like we know that Facebook or Meta has pumped so
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: much money into anti TikTok like negative pr right. Facebook
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: worked with a company called Targeted Victory to get like
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: negative op eds about TikTok placed in newspapers so that
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: elected officials would see them like this is a documented thing, right,
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Like I don't think anybody at Facebook would deny this
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: is happening. It's it's like a matter of public fact,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: and so we do got to ask some questions about why,
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: because certainly a TikTok ban would be great for Facebook
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: and great for Mark Zuckerberg, and they're certainly spending a
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: lot of money to push a certain negative public perception
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: of TikTok with elected officials. Like I remember when there
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: was a hearing a couple last year about TikTok, and
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: Facebook had paid targeted Victory to put op eds in
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: papers about like how young people had really unfortunately died
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: or hurt themselves doing so called TikTok challenges, however, obscuring
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: the reality that some of those TikTok challenges actually originated
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: on Facebook. Right. And so it's like, rather than having
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: the conversation about, well, what platforms were actually responsible for
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: this harm, and like, like, let's talk about this harm
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: to kids, which we should be doing, it's just a
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: way of making TikTok the boogeyman and letting Facebook off
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: the hook for harms that they also participate in.
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: Right, And kind of related back to our shops. When
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: we're talking about TikTok shops, there's a conversation that Amazon
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: have jumped on board because they have lost cells due
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: to TikTok shops. So that's a whole different conversation. Again,
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: so many things that you're like, why are you doing this?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, money, I mean everybody, everybody has a stake in
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: this a little bit like Amazon and Jeff Bezos certainly
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: have a financial stake in what's going to happen with
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: TikTok because TikTok is really aggressively pushing TikTok shop as
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: a way to compete with online retailers like Amazon, and
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: so Amazon obviously has a financial stake in what happens
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: with TikTok. And so we just got to be more honest,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: I think, and have a bit more of an honest
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: assessment of the major players and why they might be
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: taking the positions that they're taking.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: Right, but let's say all this is just hearsay and conspiracies,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: as I'm saying, even though we've talked about it's not.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: Is TikTok trying to balance out the fears?
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: So they are. TikTok's attempt to balance out these fears
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: is what they're calling Project Texas. So TikTok has committed
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: to spend one point five billion dollars on this plan,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: which would essentially enact a firewall between TikTok and employees
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: of its Chinese based parent company, fight Dance. It would
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: sort of set up this United States based firm called
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Oracle as a kind of a watchdog to scrutinize TikTok
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: source code and I guess like act like a third
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: party monitor for potential security risks. So basically they're like, Okay,
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: if you are so worried about it, we will set
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: up this firewall and we will put it America tech
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: firm in charge of being a watchdog to make sure
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: everything is on the up and app Will that actually
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: be enough to satisfy these lawmakers? It sounds like the
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: answer is no so far, Like, I have not actually
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: seen a lot of people talking about Project Texas as
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: a thing that is actually going to ameliorate the concerns
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: that these lawmakers are saying that they have.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to imagine if they chose the name Project
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: Texas to try to wow.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: I'm sure like, oh my gosh, what conveys like patriotism
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: and like Americanism and like oh United States, Project Texas,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Freedom Texas.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Now this is really interesting to me because I had
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: to take a moment. I was reading up about this
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: because again I was just curious about what would happen,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: and I was reminded of you know, when I was
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: in China. You know, Twitter's band, Facebook is band, Instagram's banned,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Google's not allowed, Google left voluntarily.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: But then it's kind of like no.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: But everybody used a VPN to just like use it anyway.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: So I was just thinking about, like, what would that be,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: what was that going to look like. It's just it's
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: a really fascinating kind of terrifying thing. But I guess
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: the last time you were here, we were talking about this,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and you know, we were talking about still the same
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: things of which I know we'll get to later about
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: you know, marginalized communities being affected, because again in China,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: that was a huge blow that they couldn't use these things.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: But also you know, having these spaces is really important.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: But they do have their issues, and last time you
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: were here, you were talking about like TikTok and what
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: is going on there with their issues.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Totally, So someone listening to this might be like, wow,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: Bridget is like being paid by TikTok or something, although,
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: as we discussed, I am wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: now that I got as a free swag from an event,
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: only because it's the Comfy's sweatshirt I've ever worn. However,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: like I will be the first person to tell you
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: all the different ways that I think that TikTok is
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: messing up, I don't want to make it, see Mike,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: I think TikTok is great. It definitely has very big
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: issues that deserve to be talked about, that they deserve
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: to be made accountable for, you know, just like any
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: social media platform in twenty twenty four, there are some
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: very valid concerns around TikTok and security and other things too,
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: And anybody who tells you that there isn't just does
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: not know the fact. So we talked about how a
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: lawmakers are concerned that TikTok could like spy on Americans.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: They actually have kind of done that already, you know.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: There were reports that TikTok access journalist information to identify
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: which employees were leaking information about the platform. TikTok basically
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: admitted to doing this, according to an internal email. They
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: were asked about this, and they were like, well, it's
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: not really spy, and I mean, like, it does sound
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: like spying to me, you know, I get what they're
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: kind of saying that it's not like they were spying
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: on random American citizens for no reason. They were spying
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: on specifically journalists to answer a specific question. To me,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: spying is spying, So like, it's not like they have
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: a squeaky clean record on that, which I think people
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: should just be aware of. Also, there's like plenty of
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: other non spying reasons that your average person who uses
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: TikTok or like has a child or a sibling or
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: something that uses TikTok should be concerned about, right, what
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: issues when it comes to moderation, Like Sam was talking
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: about how TikTok impacts mental health, one of the things
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: I wish that you talked about more is just like
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: how addictive these platforms are, how they are intentionally made
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: to keep you scrolling for longer and longer and longer,
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: even when they know this is actually harming them, this
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: is actually making them feel bad, Like they like, this
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: is they know this right, this is not this is
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: not news to them, and yet they still design their
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: platforms to be as addictive as possible. These are questions
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: I wish we had answers to right, things like algorithmic
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: suppression or algorithmic manipulation, like are they showing you some
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: things and not showing you other things? And why? Of course,
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: the spread of things like mis and disinformation and pushing
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: users into extremist content. But as much as these are
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: things that we should be talking about, none of them
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: are specific to just TikTok, And so I have a
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: problem with this idea that the reason the only reason
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: that we should care about these issues is when the
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: platform is owned by a Chinese based parent company. I
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: don't understand why we can't then say like, okay, well,
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: if these are problems, let's actually address the problem, and
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: let's actually call out the different corporations for doing the
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: exact same thing, because it's not just TikTok, and it
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: makes it seem like they're making TikTok into this singular boogeyman,
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: when anybody who has used Facebook or Twitter or Instagram
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: knows that is not the case.
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: Mean, Twitter in itself is a cesspool of white supremacist,
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: not neo Nazi movements.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this too, because I
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, it's it's really if we lose TikTok,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: we've already kind of lost Twitter, Like we're losing these spaces.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: It's and they were important, Like there there is such
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: a use and a value in them, and it is
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: sometimes I feel like when people don't use them or
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: they don't understand them, they dismiss that they're just like,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: but there is so much happening and so much being
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: shared that is important on them. We already lost Twitter.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like I think that context is really
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: important of what will it be like when if there
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: is no TikTok and Twitter is functionally not usable, you know,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: for particularly for marginalized people, right, Like, you know, I
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: feel like I cannot use Twitter without seeing transphobia, racism,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: horrible conspiracy theories, harassment, and so it's not a platform
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: that I can really tolerate spending a lot of time
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: on anymore so for marginalized people who do not want
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: to be subjected to that kind of nonsense. Where if
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: we lose TikTok, where's the organizing happening? Right again, to
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: add even a little more context, folks might have seen
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago that Meta made an announcement
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: that they were going to be deprioritizing content about political
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: and social issues, right, and so if they are making
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: that choice, and it's going to be that much harder
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: for political and social issues, which Meta has a track
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: record of really defining those issues as issues pertaining to women,
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: queer folks, trans folks, black folks, Right, those are the
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: issues when they say political issues and social issues from
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: their own behavior, like that is what they mean. They
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: have a whole track record of suppressing content about abortion
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: access and Palestinian activism and black activism and things that
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: pertain to marginalized communities. So that being the case, where
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: are these where are we supposed to do our organizing?
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Where are we supposed to build power online? Particularly given
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: that building power online has been so important to traditionally
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: marginalized communities, It's really a deep question that I'm quite concerned.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: About, right, And Honestly, platforms like TikTok really help with
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: brand new creators, Like this is where you can see
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: like there's not nepotism working. It's literally people who go
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: viral for whatever reason, good or bad, but essentially they're
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: just making it on their own whether it's sure algorithm
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: has everything to do with it, but we're able to
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: see more and more content from like everyday people, like
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: every day people who get to do great content, and
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: people can pick and choose who they want to follow
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: and who they don't want to follow, and it's actually
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: something that they do on their own. And I know
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: YouTube once upon a time was that kind of same
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: idea as well. But with this level of like needing
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: to be ad sponsored on YouTube, that kind of has
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: gone away. You already need a connection, whether it's through
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: an agency, whether it's through something to actually make big
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: again on YouTube, as where TikTok has kind of become
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: that new YouTube where you can be discovered as a
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: brand new thing.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah. In that article I mentioned in essence about the
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: black women entrepreneurs who were really concerned about a TikTok ban,
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: that was something they really made clear is that on YouTube,
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: in order to find success, you have to have a
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: kind of like already have some sort of name or connection.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: It is very difficult to sort of start from zero
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: and start building up. I'm hearing that YouTube shorts, this
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: sort of like new TikTok competitor on YouTube might be
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: a little easier. So like that's a platform that folks
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: might to check out. But it just goes to show that,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: like it's just so hard to use social media to
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: build a platform for yourself. And with all of these changes,
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: and with the different platforms changing so rapidly, not to
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: mention the overall landscape changing so rapidly, that is certainly
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: going to hurt marginalize people the most, people who don't
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: necessarily have access to like traditional media outlets and like
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: legacy media and things like that. And so it's just
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: really clear to me that we are potentially gearing up
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: to a digital media landscape where it is that much
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: harder for underrepresented voices to be heard equitably and in
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: a way that's truly representative.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: Right, So, with all of that and all the conversations
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: that I'm throwing out, with all the things that I've
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: seen on my algorithm, what do you kind of lay
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: out there what you think is really happening right now?
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: So, as I said, I think that lawmakers have really
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: sent that like they need to be cracking down on TikTok.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: It will help them kind of look tough on China,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: will also kind of help them look like they're doing
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: something to reign in big tech, even though they're not.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: I think that the United States really wants to remain
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: a major player when it comes to big tech, but
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: also the like massively lucrative data collection industry. I think
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: that like this is really about that concern to me,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: because you know, if you really wanted better data privacy,
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: which we should have, it does not begin an end
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: with banning TikTok are, especially when all of our data
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: is essentially for sale to whoever wants it, which if
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: you're an American, I'm sorry to report that it's just true.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: Anybody out there who wants to buy your address, your
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: phone number, really any piece of information about you can
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: do that, and they can do it legally, And so
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: that's to me, that's something that seems bad, and that
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: includes countries like China. Only a few weeks ago, back
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: in February, I signed an executive order that ostensibly was
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: meant to limit the sale of some of our data
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: to quote countries of concern. But this order really just
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: puts some limitations on the sales of American data. As
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Wired points out, US data brokers need only take a
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: few steps to ensure that overseas customers follow certain security
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: requirements during the transfer, many of which were already required
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: by law. So I really just have a hard time
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: understanding why TikTok is such a threat given that China
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: would not even need TikTok to get our data. As
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: long as they follow certain guidelines, they can legally buy
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: it the same as anybody else.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: It is just literally like, okay, so you didn't give
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: us money for it, that's why we want to be Yes,
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: we couldn't make a profit out of it. Which is
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: hilarious because I think I've received in the last three
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: months alone at least four different letters telling me that
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: my data has been breached by all these different companies.
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: My healthcare told me I have got a breach. My
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: insurance told me I gotta breach. I want to say,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: my h one of my credit cards got to breach.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: My bank that has my mortgage, you gotta breach. So
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: I'm like, uh, some everybody's got my data. According to
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: my information, they all have it.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is just the state of being an American.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: It's like every like you wake up, buy a coffee
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: and then you had a notification five seconds later. That's like, oh,
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: we got we got it, we got you whatever, whatever
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: information that you have, we have right.
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: And what's so even funnier to me is instead of
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: people actually, instead of the government's changing or going after
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: these people a hardcore I'm sure if like small fish
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: get actual jail time or whatever whatnot, I'm being Instead
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: all of these agencies and corporations are changing their terms
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: of agreement to tell me that I can't suit them
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: for their bad they're bad breach.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if anybody uses Roku you might have seen recently,
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: you had to agree to some new terms and conditions,
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: and those terms and conditions were like, you can't sue
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: if we do something wrong to you.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: If you reach information, you can't see us. We're listening
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: all your money if.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: You want to us, if you want to watch this
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: episode of Gilmore Girls, you have to give away your
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: ability to sue us.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, like, what's so funny is every single individual
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: network I stold us to, like Hulu has sened that
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: out and I was like, what the hell is this?
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: And the other part to all of those like for Roku,
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: the only way you can opt out is by sending
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: them a physical letter.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: Doesn't that really tell you everything about how these companies
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: are showing up in this day and age that like, yes,
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: and I guess like to close, like that's sort of
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: I just think that that dynamic, the dynamic that says
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: that American tech companies can do whatever they want to you,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: take whatever they want from you, exploits you in any
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: way they want make money from you and your kids
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: however they see fit if it makes them richer, and
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: I think that that is really what we're up against here.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: I think that people are sick of it. And I
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: think that this whole song and dance about TikTok really
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: highlights that it's not just about this one app. It
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: is about an entire rotten ecosystem where we are being
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: exploited to make somebody else fitcher and I think people
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: have really come to see that, like that is what
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: we need to be talking about. That is what we
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: need to be really deeply rethinking and reassessing.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think one of the things I love
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: about when you come on Bridget and your show is
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: that there are so many things that are so gatekeeping
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: in the technology world, where so many things have been
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: invented or crafted by women marginalized communities, and then are
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: like overtaken, are bought by people, and it is a
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: way of keeping us off out of these spaces.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Like you can.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: There are just numerous examples of times where it's like, well, Okay,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I can't use this anymore because I'll run into all
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: this hateful stuff. I can't use this anymore because I'll
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: run into all this hateful stuff. So I it is
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: a really important issue in terms of intersectionality and feminism,
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: and as we're moving into elections, oh my god, like
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I'm just so concerned about a lot of it.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: But it is like.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: If we again did lose TikTok, it would be another
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: space where that's gone, can't show up anymore.
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, women, people of color, trans folks,
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: queer folks, we are technology, like we are what makes
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: technology what it is. We have been at the forefront
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: of all of this, of computers becoming commonplace, of cell
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: phones becoming what they are, of smartphones, iPhones, all of it.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: We have been at the forefront of that since the
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: very beginning. And so I guess I just want to
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: challenge anybody listening whether you're for a talk band against it.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: Never use TikTok, never would use it. Really see this
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: domain and these conversations and these spaces as yours to
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: be part of, yours, to take up space, and yours
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: to show up in, yours to care about. I think
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: a big part of that sort of gatekeeping that you
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: spoke about, Annie is this idea that we A don't
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: belong in these spaces, which is bs we do, we
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: invented them, You're welcome, or B that we can't be
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: involved in them because we're not smart enough. You don't
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: have the background, whatever, whatever. I don't have any kind
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: of hard tech degree or anything. You don't need a
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: hard tech degree to know when you're being taken advantage
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: of by a tech leader. You don't need a degree
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: in it to know when a digital experience does not
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: feel good, It is not validating, and it is exploitative. Right.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: You are the expert of your technological experience, and don't
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: let any of these tech bro losers tell you otherwise.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: You are smarter than Elon Musk, whoever listening to this.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: You are smarter than Musk. I guarantee it. I don't
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: know who you are, but I can guarantee you Elon
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: Musk is stupider than you are. For sure.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: I mean he's bankrupted two companies.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: Have you yet comment companies that you bankrupted? Probably none.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Writing Samantha sent me a TikTok recently about the study
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: about how male gamers who are bad are the ones
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: that are real pissed off right, And we talked about this,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: Bridget in our episode we did on gate keeping and
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: online gaming, and.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, see, you guys just suck.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: Most of the trolls who were on the gaming network
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: were the ones who were actually really bad at the game.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Those are the only trolls that you released.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm good, I'm a good gamer.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Don't come in my space.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: You suck and you're taking it out of Andie stop it.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, we always love having you, Bridget. Thank you
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: so much. I'm sure we'll be following up on this.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: We'll see what happens. But in the meantime, where can
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: the good listeners find you?
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: You can check out my podcast. There are no girls
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram at
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Bridget brandyc on Blue Sky, at Bridget Todd, on threads
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: at I think my thread's name is the same as
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: my Instagram name. I think I have to double check
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: if that's true, but you can try that.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: And you can find me on TikTok at Bridget Todd
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: makes pods.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you should do that if you haven't already.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Listeners and check out all Bridget has done on this
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: show for sure. Yes, thank you for being here and listeners.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: If you would like to contact us, you can our
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: email at Stephanie moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok stuff.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: I've Never told You.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: We have a tea public store, and we have a
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: as always too, our super producer Christina or executive producer Maya,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: for listening. Steffan Never told You is Fritch and by
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: can check out the Heart Radio Apple Podcasts wherever you
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: listen to favorite shows.