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Inside NRF: How a Modern CMS is Powering Retail’s Biggest Show · The Retail Podcast

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  One of the big mega trends that I think particularly in fashion,
• 0:03
  for example, has been things like TikTok that have led to
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  social influencers wearing something and then that content
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  or that product or that experience needing to be live on
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  a website within minutes. Hello and welcome back to the
• 0:29
  Retail Podcast. We've got a special show for you
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  today. I'm joined by the CIO of NRF,
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  Jason Holzmer. Jason, welcome to the show.
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  Mark, welcome to the. Show great to see you.
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  Thank you. So today we're going to really
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  sort of get deep dive into a technical area and Jason, why
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  don't you sort of sets maybe give us some context.
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  Tell us about your what life is like, because this is like a
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  real under lifting the curtains back and seeing what's going on
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  at NRFI mean the the traffic you guys must have to deal with the
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  tech. I mean, just give us, give us
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  some insight. Yeah.
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  So our biggest challenge over the last several years has been
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  modernization. We've we've had legacy systems
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  in place for 15 to 20 years and they've not evolved as quickly
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  as we'd like them to. And so as AI is coming onto the
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  scene, as there are better models to be able to create and
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  deploy content, we've we architected our entire ecosystem
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  from our CMS system all the way through to the end user search
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  and platform with Storyblock. And so it's been a remarkable
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  journey and it's, it's, it is now they're on the other side of
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  of our, our launching our, our, our premier brand or our NRF,
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  our primary brand. It is what a change.
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  It's, it's, you know, to be able to track and see what we can see
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  these days. It is made and it's transformed
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  how we do things and how we're thinking about content.
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  Oh. Fantastic.
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  How long for context? How long have you been at NRF?
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  13 years. Wow.
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  OK, so you this is an area that content obviously is something
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  that has been part of the show and that's what shows are about.
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  South, tell me some of the pain, like let's go back to five years
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  when Storyblock went on the scene.
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  Tell me some of the challenges that you were having in terms of
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  what what you wanted and what you what was preventing you from
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  getting there? One of the major things that
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  they could have, two big areas for us were around content
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  creation. So we were on a trooper
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  platform. We had solar first search and
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  discovering content was was challenging.
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  And solar is if anyone has used it, it's enterprise grade, but
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  it is very can be very complicated in the right
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  context. So our sites when someone wanted
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  to create content and then try to do some types of
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  personalization, we couldn't do that very quickly.
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  It had to have the IT team come in with a developer group and be
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  able to, you know, address the, the a posting of a simple
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  carousel on a, on a, an event page or yeah, you know, creating
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  content and things like that. And so you Fast forward five
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  years and, and we have story block in place and we have a few
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  of the more modern tools. Content creation takes 1/4 of
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  the time that it used to, you know, instead of launching us
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  like in eight weeks, it takes us 3 weeks.
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  You know, it's, it's, it is much, much faster.
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  Content creators have greater control over that user
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  experience and they, they can develop and deploy things with,
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  with no IT intervention at all. So it is, it is transformed how
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  we conduct business for us. That's fantastic.
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  And in terms of when you, when you look to the future and the
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  demands on your business, because again, I just think the
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  number of partners, the number of content moments that you
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  have, what sort of how do you envision the future in, in, in
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  this world or around content? What?
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  What sort of ideas have you got in in what you were doing?
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  Well, we wanted to be able to reduce friction.
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  You know, the goal was less speed to market.
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  We wanted to be able to respond the industries changes so
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  quickly and with all of the new emerging technologies and just
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  even the, you know, the political landscape and
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  everything that we needed to engage with happens at
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  lightspeed and we couldn't keep up.
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  We would try to it would limiting our ability to to
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  respond and to address, you know, current affairs, things
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  that we needed to be be more proactive on.
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  And so with this deployment, what that gave us the ability to
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  do was was to act in near real time to address this stuff in 20
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  and a 24 hour cycle. And that was tremendous for us.
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  You know, we had our show in New York had the largest attendance
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  we've ever had. We had the best shows rating
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  scores we've we've ever had. People were able to to find the
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  content they were looking for and and engage with us in ways
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  that they've never done before. So it's it has expanded our
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  sphere of influence in a way that we just were not.
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  It was not possible before. And this is just out of personal
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  curiosity as a as an attendee, when you're talking about the,
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  the content on the on on the website, is that all the way for
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  example, from your agenda content, like is it the full
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  spectrum or is it only one, I don't know, is it only one
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  specific area? Yeah.
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  So when we started in our all the architecture, it was
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  literally you were on one URL and you couldn't cross pollinate
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  between the various different things that were going on within
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  our organisation. And now when you're on Big Show
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  and you can go to a piece of content there or you search on
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  nrf.com. Yeah.
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  The way that it's Federated is allows us to see content in one
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  place and be able to suggest something in another.
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  And so it it gives us gives us greater visibility into users
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  coming to our site, gave greater visibility into what was the
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  breadth of what we had. Yeah.
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  As an attempt, Cindy, I did notice a difference, especially
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  when I have to go back and look at content and match that
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  content to a speaker or to an event or to a partner.
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  I found I normally what you get is like a big book and you're
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  like, you got to search through the book and at some of the old
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  conferences, obviously they've digitised them now, but it's
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  still almost to me, all they've done is like taken photocopies
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  of those pages that you then it's still really awkward.
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  And I did notice this year that getting to things were so much
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  easier. And then, as you were saying,
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  like the cross colonisation from one platform to another, then to
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  maybe to go out to LinkedIn or to go out to, to, to somewhere
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  else was really good. Mark.
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  I mean, it must be fantastic to have a, a customer as so as big
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  as NRF and so such a powerhouse in the industry.
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  I'm just curious when CIOs like Jason are sort of thinking about
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  this journey with you, where do they start?
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  Where does this journey start? Yeah, it's a it's a good point.
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  And, you know, I I get to meet a lot of senior business leaders
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  like Jason who are in exactly the same situation in the retail
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  space. This challenge of getting
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  content live quickly has become an increasingly big issue.
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  And one of the big mega trends that I think particularly in
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  fashion, for example, has been things like TikTok that have led
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  to social influencers wearing something or, or seeing a new
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  product that they might be testing out.
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  And then that content or that product or that experience
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  needing to be live on a website within minutes.
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  And, and Jason's colleagues, the people who are responsible for
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  the content, as you, as you probably have heard, is they get
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  frustrated really by the inability to be able to
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  merchandise or get something up on their website very, very
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  quickly. Because they're often dependent
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  on a developer or a process to get content up on a website.
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  Whereas really what they want to be able to do have a, a
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  merchandiser or a product manager or a brand manager take
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  a tile that might be already available on the website and be
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  able to place in, oh, here's what Kim Kardashian was worth
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  wearing just a few moments ago. And here it is available for you
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  here and now. And unfortunately, retailers
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  have just been struggling to move at that pace that for
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  example, that certainly this mega trend of social influences
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  has has created. And so Jason is.
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  Being a social influencer myself.
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  But. Anyway, no, sorry to interrupt
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  your, your trade of thought there, but I'm, I'm just
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  curious, one of the challenges that I've seen is and is what
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  Jason was saying is this cross colonisation of content about
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  content, you being confident that some of the content doesn't
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  live in your world, it actually sits somewhere else.
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  How much, I mean, Jason, how much do you see when you were
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  as, as obviously a part of the the executive team, how much was
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  the business coming to you for that?
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  Yeah, so the content team we were getting requested, we just
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  couldn't meet. And so that created some
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  consternation within the organisation about, you know,
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  just knowing what they wanted to say, knowing how they wanted to
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  say it and what they wanted to include and not being not having
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  the capabilities to do so. And so that helped with buy in
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  and that helped with getting folks on board, because when you
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  talk about a digital transformation, that means so
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  many things to so many people. And if you're not in technology,
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  it means something very different likely.
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  And so it gave the, the, the real world examples that we, we
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  needed to be able to help push this forward.
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  And it was, it was the change that we asked the organisation
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  to go through was it was, you know, it was huge, monumental,
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  like it was something that you don't do every, every year.
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  And it's so in order to get that buy in, you know, we had to, we
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  had to bring it down to why should I care about this?
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  Like what, what would this do for me?
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  And so that's, that's what we, we ended up, you know, using
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  some of those examples where we couldn't take content from
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  other, other areas and we couldn't move fast enough to
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  help them understand and bring down to the level where they
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  need it and, and could buy into it.
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  And Mark, what's the secret source in terms of the, the
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  getting such a, a big system up and running?
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  I think last time we spoke you were telling her that the
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  actual, there's a misconception of how difficult this is to do
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  that you guys can actually the, the technology lends itself to
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  simpler integration. Is that right?
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  Yeah, so one of the when we start to actually talk to the
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  retail landscape, one of the things that we've certainly seen
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  is this, this increasing proliferation of screens.
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  In fact, just to give you an, a real life example of something I
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  went through recently, I wanted to, to purchase a new iPad.
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  It was, it was Christmas. I hey, you've got to treat
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  yourself. And then I was looking to
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  purchase this from one of the big large retailers here in the
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  department stores here in the UK.
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  And, and I noticed actually someone had a great offer.
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  And I thought, oh wow, they, they've actually got a store not
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  too far from me. I'll, I'll, I'll go and pick it
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  up. Incredibles that.
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  But what was interesting is that there was an experience that I
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  had at home, which is obviously one source of content.
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  There was a, a set of content that the person that I met the
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  Apple section within that department store.
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  Yeah. And she had a different price.
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  And then a lot of these technology products have a
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  little screen now in front of them to sort of describe how the
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  product works and essentially sell you and that had another
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  price as well. Oh wow.
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  And, and actually, and so there was a, there was a, a big
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  disparity between the content and the experience that was
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  happening. So anyhow, the, the, the, the
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  net net is that this, this new modern approach to content,
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  which is often referred to as a, a headless CMS.
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  It sounds like something from the 1600s in the UK with Henry
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  the Eighth. But what it's actually doing is
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  it's, it's essentially enabling or large retailers to have a
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  singular pool of content, but to serve that content up, whether
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  it be on a on a web browser at home for that retail experience,
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  a little display that might be adjacent a product for, for
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  merchandising that product. And now increasingly the little
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  digital displays that go alongside the product with
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  pricing information, for example.
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  So when you look at the look at the show, for example, we have,
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  you know, many systems feed that the content for that show.
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  We have our back end database system that handles exhibitors
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  and speakers and things like that.
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  And then we have other content like folks who are contributors
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  that can contribute content to the event.
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  And so we have to we have to be able to deploy very quickly.
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  And so it allows us very, you know, without a huge level of
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  effort to take four or five different sources and be able to
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  feed into these the blocks within the, within the site
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  that, that, you know, we also, you could do Dr experiences from
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  and, you know, and so if you have the single source of your
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  truth is from a source that can be controlled or validated, it
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  makes the content, you know, kind of in Marx example, less
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  likely to happen because you have systems that are actually
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  pulling from the same source, but may be presented differently
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  in different platforms. So it's, it's very powerful and
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  it allows us to be confident that what we're presenting is,
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  is accurate and timely. The other piece that we're
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  looking at is being able to create more personalised
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  experiences. So, you know, the dynamic home
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  page, being able to create and integrate search results with
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  someone's background information so that we can actually create a
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  page that's relevant and contextually imported or
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  necessary for whatever it is you're looking for.
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  And it's, that's massive. It's, it's going to change.
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  You know, people don't, they get bombarded every single day with
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  things that is not, they're not relevant and it's not important
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  to them. And so they disengage.
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  And so if you can provide people content that is targeted and
• 12:47
  specific on the fly when somebody logs into your site
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  because of what you know about them, you can you can maintain
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  that relationship all you understand me and you can get to
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  place you get people to engage with you and the content.
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  More Yeah, the future of the future of retail is content.
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  And I'm not just saying that because of this to come to, but
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  it is from everything I've heard from conference CEO's, different
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  business leaders, everyone talking about the proliferation
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  of influences of all the different elements of digital
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  touch points, all of them are content moments.
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  And so therefore, I think to effectively do this to serve
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  content to users, you need to have some form of robust system
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  in place. Just coming into the final
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  couple of questions, Jason, in terms of words of wisdom, if I'm
• 13:32
  coming to look at this and maybe if you cast your mind back to
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  where you were before you had this system, what's one thing I,
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  I need to be conscious of what, what's one thing that you, you
• 13:43
  thought through this process you've learned that you would
• 13:46
  pass on? You know, I didn't realise the
• 13:48
  amount of effort that would be saved by, you know, deploying
• 13:52
  story block. I think the, the piece for me,
• 13:54
  when they told me what the, what the site would we would gain
• 13:57
  back in productivity or hours of developer time, I didn't take
• 14:01
  that. I thought that was the joke.
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  And you know, to be honest, because it was, I think it can't
• 14:05
  possibly give me that much time back.
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  It's not realistic. And I wish I'd done it sooner is
• 14:09
  kind of where I would go with it for the simple reason is, you
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  know, a site launching 8 weeks versus, you know, 3-3 weeks
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  versus 8 is massive. Like that is, is a big deal.
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  And so in giving the controller, the content creators in this
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  process, you know, going from a Drupal place with a platform
• 14:22
  which was extremely manual to this, it was, that's something I
• 14:25
  did not, was not aware of just the performance gains.
• 14:27
  I thought that that was just marketing speak and it wasn't.
• 14:30
  We're seeing those things today. That's fantastic.
• 14:32
  Mark, final question, in terms of like the outcomes that Jason
• 14:36
  has, is there anything that you feel that we've missed that is a
• 14:39
  surprise to people? Because I think sometimes
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  because CMS obviously has been around since the dawn of what
• 14:44
  people are doing, it's all overlooked as the the the
• 14:47
  catalyst for a lot of transformation.
• 14:49
  Yes. I'm just curious on your
• 14:51
  thoughts. Yeah, I, I, I think coming back
• 14:54
  to Jason's point, sometimes the, the biggest hindrance to making
• 14:59
  progress is, Oh my God, how big a project is this going to be?
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  How big a change is this going to be?
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  Bearing in mind a lot of today's systems have been in place five,
• 15:09
  maybe seven years. And so often what I I hear is,
• 15:13
  Oh my God, OK, is this just going to be too big a step?
• 15:17
  And, and will the effort involved actually reward the
• 15:21
  fact that we're going to put all this effort in?
• 15:23
  And it's great to hear and, and I hear it so many times that it
• 15:27
  is worth going, making that big step.
• 15:30
  And, and certainly we're starting to see very large
• 15:33
  retailers with, you know, years of content and very complex
• 15:38
  organisations have made that step and it's been a very, very
• 15:42
  worthwhile for them. So and, and I think if you're an
• 15:45
  organisation that is increasingly looking to connect
• 15:49
  your digital online experience with the in store experience or
• 15:53
  you're implementing technology like kiosks and so forth.
• 15:57
  And so essentially multi screen digital environments where you
• 16:01
  do want to offer up a consistent service, probably now's the time
• 16:04
  to take the leap because it's those types of transformations
• 16:08
  where this change can deliver the biggest advantage.
• 16:10
  How? I mean, I know I said it's a
• 16:12
  final question, but just listening to you both talk, it's
• 16:14
  inspired me. It's the final, final question.
• 16:16
  I promise. When you when it's an AI
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  question, you know, I'm, I'm just where, how far are we from
• 16:22
  like AI being the mechanism to deliver the content, right?
• 16:26
  That sort of layer of above, above the platform that then is
• 16:31
  in. I mean, I'm just curious, you're
• 16:33
  the experts in the field. What do you think?
• 16:35
  I think we're, for us, you know, AI has become such, this an
• 16:40
  important part of us, so many of our technology conversations.
• 16:43
  And I think when we're looking at connecting topics and things
• 16:47
  like that together, we're not there in terms of writing
• 16:49
  content and, and being able to have these tools kind of
• 16:52
  released and, and to, to, to develop content.
• 16:55
  But if I understand who you are and what you might be coming to
• 16:57
  the site for, there may be avenues of content that you
• 17:00
  haven't explored that we could use AI to help provide some more
• 17:03
  relevant contextual pieces that could create a more full picture
• 17:06
  of something that you're looking for and potentially offer, you
• 17:09
  know, make suggestions on offering things that you may not
• 17:12
  see in our content offering or shows or other products.
• 17:16
  How far away is that? I mean is that?
• 17:18
  I that's very near. I believe that that's when we
• 17:21
  reached the end of this process. We're already having
• 17:24
  conversations today about how do we how do we integrate these
• 17:26
  pieces into our content cycle That's.
• 17:29
  Brilliant, Jason. I'm sorry, Mark.
• 17:31
  Yeah, I and, and I would add to what Jason said, right, which
• 17:34
  is, look, I don't think the robot or the bot is necessarily
• 17:38
  going to take over from our, from our content creators, but I
• 17:42
  do think it's helping them. And, and as Jason said,
• 17:46
  understanding what performs well, what reads well.
• 17:49
  We're definitely seeing a big take up there.
• 17:52
  We're also seeing a big take up in, in translation actually.
• 17:55
  So AI enabling us to take, you know, content that's on brand,
• 18:02
  that that takes the, the brand personality and convey that in
• 18:06
  different languages. We're definitely seeing AI take
• 18:09
  advantage be taken advantage of of there.
• 18:13
  But yeah, I think the human still has a an awful lot to play
• 18:18
  in in the development of content, right.
• 18:20
  And I and I, I know content a lot of content creators who are
• 18:26
  very. Are rightly.
• 18:27
  Very recipherous about that. But I do think AI can be a a
• 18:31
  powerful enabler also in helping them to do their job.
• 18:35
  So yes, lots of opportunity. That's wonderful, Mark.
• 18:40
  Sorry, Jason, you want to? No, I, I just to echo those
• 18:42
  points, I think that it is, I agree with that 100%.
• 18:45
  I think there is a, there is a scenario and and those use cases
• 18:50
  you described are some of what we're testing internally already
• 18:53
  to be able to make sure that our content stays on brand, that the
• 18:55
  translation pieces is exceptionally.
• 18:58
  I think it's taken us further along than we've ever gone in,
• 19:01
  in that area. And I think it those who are
• 19:03
  consuming the content find it more contextually relevant and
• 19:06
  and and the translations are getting much much better.
• 19:09
  Yeah, I mean, look, NRF while I was in Japanese, Portuguese,
• 19:14
  Spanish, French, I mean, like there there wasn't a language I
• 19:17
  didn't hear while I was walking around NRF.
• 19:19
  So I can imagine how that will be a major a major play in the
• 19:23
  future. But Mark, Jason, thank you so
• 19:26
  much for giving up your time and joining me on the show.
• 19:29
  It's been, you know, hopefully we've unlifted the lid on, on
• 19:33
  the art of the possible in this world.
• 19:35
  Well, that as as is is going underneath or going through such
• 19:40
  rapid transformation. Thanks, Al very much.
• 19:41
  Thanks.