Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / FINALLY: ARREST IN MURDER OF YOUNG MOM CRYSTAL ROGERS

Transcript

FINALLY: ARREST IN MURDER OF YOUNG MOM CRYSTAL ROGERS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:14
Speaker 2: Finally an arrest and the murder of the beautiful young
0:18
Speaker 2: mom Crystal Rogers.
0:20
Speaker 3: Take a listen to this.
0:22
Speaker 4: It's an arrest that has everyone's attention. Brooks how, Crystal
0:26
Speaker 4: Roger's boyfriend and the main suspect in her disappearance, charged
0:30
Speaker 4: with her murder and tempering with physical evidence. According to
0:33
Speaker 4: the indictment, the charges stem from an incident July fourth
0:36
Speaker 4: weekend of twenty fifteen, just days before Cristel's car was
0:40
Speaker 4: found abandoned on the side of the Bluegrass Parkway with
0:43
Speaker 4: her keys, phone, and purse inside. He was named the
0:47
Speaker 4: main suspect within three months, but never charged until today.
0:52
Speaker 2: Why so long you were just hearing our friends in whas.
0:57
Speaker 3: For those of you just joining us in the last.
0:59
Speaker 2: Hours, Finally unarrest in the murder of Crystal Rogers.
1:05
Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:07
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
1:09
Speaker 2: and Serrius XM one eleven. It's been a long time coming.
1:15
Speaker 2: And you know what's so irritating. You know, Cheryl McCollum
1:20
Speaker 2: is joining me, director of the Cold Case Research Institute
1:23
Speaker 2: and star of a Hitney series Zone seven. When I
1:28
Speaker 2: hear and I've heard it over and over. It's countless cases,
1:32
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum quote, everybody knew.
1:35
Speaker 3: I mean since day.
1:37
Speaker 2: One, everyone said, Brooke, how is the killer?
1:44
Speaker 3: Why did it take so long?
1:46
Speaker 2: And to you, Cheryl McCollum, have you ever had those cases?
1:49
Speaker 2: And you have to tell every single witness it doesn't
1:51
Speaker 2: matter what everybody says, because very often what everybody says
1:56
Speaker 2: is not true. That's not the killer. It turns out
1:59
Speaker 2: to be someone completely different. But in this case, it's true.
2:04
Speaker 2: Since the whole thing went down, he has been suspect
2:09
Speaker 2: number one.
2:09
Speaker 5: He's been suspect only one. There hasn't been anybody else.
2:13
Speaker 5: But it's one of those situations. What you know and
2:16
Speaker 5: what you could prove is not the same thing. So
2:18
Speaker 5: they had to be patient. They had to work this
2:21
Speaker 5: case from every angle, which is what they did. They
2:24
Speaker 5: got him once for theft, they got people that were
2:27
Speaker 5: close to him for perjury. They even press Grandma so
2:32
Speaker 5: hard she invoked her Fifth Amendment. So they have worked
2:36
Speaker 5: this thing beautifully, Yeah, as long as they possibly could,
2:40
Speaker 5: until they got to today.
2:42
Speaker 3: You know, Cheryl McCollum, you got to give him credit.
2:45
Speaker 3: It takes a lot of doing to come down so
2:47
Speaker 3: hard on a granny.
2:49
Speaker 2: She takes the fifth right, Okay, that is some serious,
2:53
Speaker 2: serious questioning.
2:55
Speaker 5: Straight up the police work.
2:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the last hours, the so called boyfriend of
3:01
Speaker 2: Crystal Rogers has been arrested and it has been a
3:06
Speaker 2: long time coming.
3:07
Speaker 3: Take a listen to whas.
3:09
Speaker 4: Eleven federal investigators accused Helk of intentionally causing the death
3:13
Speaker 4: of Crystal Runchers and destroying, concealing, mutilating, or removing physical
3:18
Speaker 4: evidence and connection to the crime. He was arrested without
3:21
Speaker 4: incident while on a job site outside of Bardstown. This
3:25
Speaker 4: was the moment Brooks was put into handcuffs.
3:27
Speaker 6: My phise reaction was just Sherry and her family getting the.
3:34
Speaker 3: Justice that they have fought so much. For joining me
3:38
Speaker 3: right now.
3:38
Speaker 2: Anchor wd RB out of Louisville, Falling Glick.
3:43
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us. Fallin, tell me about
3:46
Speaker 3: the arrest.
3:47
Speaker 7: Well Brooks hawkerr former boyfriend. He was arrested at a
3:50
Speaker 7: work site and then he was then taken to the
3:53
Speaker 7: Nelson County jail. We have video of him and handcuffed
3:57
Speaker 7: walking into the jail. It wasn't there very long, but
4:00
Speaker 7: we did get a booking photo of him, and then
4:02
Speaker 7: he was taken to another county jail called the Harding
4:06
Speaker 7: County Jail, and that is where he is staying currently.
4:09
Speaker 7: And he's not going to get out unless you post
4:11
Speaker 7: that ten million dollar cash only bond.
4:14
Speaker 2: Okay, ten million dollar cash bond, James shell nutt. That's
4:19
Speaker 2: unlike a lot of bonds where you can put, for instance,
4:23
Speaker 2: your house down is collateral, you get one hundred thousand
4:26
Speaker 2: dollars bond. You got to come up with ten thousand
4:28
Speaker 2: dollars money or collateral like a home. But a ten
4:33
Speaker 2: million dollar bond that's not going to happen anytime soon.
4:38
Speaker 6: No, it's not going to happen anytime soon. And you
4:41
Speaker 6: know a lot of times with severe cases you do
4:43
Speaker 6: see a cash bar. But even with a cash bond,
4:46
Speaker 6: that's a pretty high cash bond. They must feel pretty
4:49
Speaker 6: confident in the case that they've got against him, and
4:52
Speaker 6: so much the judge to set the bond that high.
4:54
Speaker 2: I mean, get real, shell nut If the guy has
4:57
Speaker 2: managed to outsmart police for this many years and the
5:02
Speaker 2: disappearance and death of his girlfriend, Crystal Rogers, I wouldn't
5:05
Speaker 2: let him set one toe outside of that jail. House
5:08
Speaker 2: because he could very likely slip away.
5:12
Speaker 6: I wouldn't let him set outside the jail either. You know,
5:15
Speaker 6: this guy has sat and committed potentially a crime against
5:20
Speaker 6: the mother of five children. He's covered it up, He's
5:24
Speaker 6: played games, and this guy's shown he's dangerous and he's
5:27
Speaker 6: a danger to the community.
5:29
Speaker 2: And danger to any potential witnesses. Is why I wouldn't
5:31
Speaker 2: let him out on bond. And you said the case
5:34
Speaker 2: is so severe it.
5:35
Speaker 3: Calls for a high cash bond. What do you mean
5:37
Speaker 3: by that?
5:38
Speaker 2: And what is a cash bond as supposed to a
5:40
Speaker 2: regular Bondshell.
5:41
Speaker 6: Nut, Well, it's severe because he's accused of murdering a
5:45
Speaker 6: mother of five, of potentially covering this murder up taking steps,
5:50
Speaker 6: you know. Additionally, you know, we've got some implications as
5:53
Speaker 6: to involvement in some other situations as well. And the
5:57
Speaker 6: cash bond is set so that the judge can ensure that. Yeah,
6:01
Speaker 6: I'm not giving him a no bond, So I'm going
6:03
Speaker 6: to meet the basic constitutional requirements of providing bail. But
6:07
Speaker 6: I will tell you this, if you're going to get out,
6:10
Speaker 6: we're going to be pretty sure that you're coming back.
6:12
Speaker 2: Okay, let me Q and A with myself for just
6:14
Speaker 2: a moment. James shell Nutt was asked what's the difference
6:18
Speaker 2: in a cash.
6:18
Speaker 3: Bond and regular bond?
6:20
Speaker 2: Again, in regular bond you can put up collateral like
6:23
Speaker 2: the value of your home. You can put up for instance,
6:28
Speaker 2: real estatem and in cash bond you got to have cold,
6:31
Speaker 2: hard cash. Everything else shell nut said was dead on
6:35
Speaker 2: joining me. James shell Nutt a high profile lawyer with
6:39
Speaker 2: the shell Nut firm. He's based in Alabama, but travels
6:43
Speaker 2: all over twenty seven years on metro major case at
6:47
Speaker 2: shell Nut Law Firm dot com. Guys, this has been
6:51
Speaker 2: one long, drawn out investigation. I want you to take
6:55
Speaker 2: a listen to Monica Harkins WDRB.
6:59
Speaker 8: We saw the carull in through the fence. As he
7:01
Speaker 8: got out of the car, I asked, where is Crystal Rogers.
7:05
Speaker 8: He didn't say anything. As he entered the back of
7:08
Speaker 8: the jail. The Nelson County jailer was also on hand.
7:10
Speaker 8: You can see that clearly as this unmarked car goes
7:13
Speaker 8: through the gates. Around ten forty five Hawk showed up here,
7:16
Speaker 8: but it was around eight forty.
7:18
Speaker 3: Five this morning.
7:18
Speaker 8: The FBI of Louisville posted about Hawke's arrest Rogers was
7:22
Speaker 8: last seen in July of twenty fifteen. The FBI post
7:25
Speaker 8: saying FBI and KSP have been laser focused on their
7:28
Speaker 8: commitment to hold accountable those that were responsible for the
7:31
Speaker 8: disappearance of Crystal Rogers, saying, quote, today we take a
7:35
Speaker 8: significant step in making good on that promise.
7:38
Speaker 2: You know, Fallon Glick joining me if anchor WDRB we
7:43
Speaker 2: all heard FB I why did the FBI have to
7:50
Speaker 2: be brought in to solve this case? What about local
7:54
Speaker 2: law enforcement? What's the problem, Falling Glick?
7:57
Speaker 7: Well, local law enforcement, the sheriff's office, they have been
8:00
Speaker 7: on this since day one, and I think they just
8:04
Speaker 7: didn't have enough resources to pull this case together. And
8:08
Speaker 7: we know Sherry Valor, the mother of Crystal Rogers, she
8:11
Speaker 7: has been the true champion for her daughter's case, keeping
8:15
Speaker 7: it in the spotlight. And you know, very soon after
8:18
Speaker 7: her daughter disappeared, she asked the FBI to come in,
8:22
Speaker 7: please take over this case, and that didn't happen until
8:26
Speaker 7: five years later. So the FBI, they've been on the
8:29
Speaker 7: case now for three years, and when they come in
8:32
Speaker 7: that late, they have more work to do because they
8:35
Speaker 7: weren't there from day one. And so It has taken
8:38
Speaker 7: a lot of time to pull all this evidence together
8:41
Speaker 7: because we know they've executed so many search warrants at
8:45
Speaker 7: the how family properties, the Hawk family farm. You know,
8:48
Speaker 7: that's a three hundred acre farm, so they have been
8:51
Speaker 7: there several times. And then not too long ago, they
8:54
Speaker 7: were at a home that Brooks House has built and
8:57
Speaker 7: they dug up the driveway collected ton of evidence there.
9:01
Speaker 7: So the evidence that the FBI has had to sort
9:04
Speaker 7: through is unimaginable. I know the prosecutor is saying that
9:11
Speaker 7: they have to turn over two terabytes worth of information
9:15
Speaker 7: in this case, So just a lot to go through here.
9:18
Speaker 7: We don't know what any of that evidence is, but
9:20
Speaker 7: two terrbytes were its.
9:21
Speaker 1: It's a lot.
9:21
Speaker 2: Back to the question Cheryl McCollum joining us from Zone seven,
9:28
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, I was asking.
9:30
Speaker 3: Why the FEDS had to be brought in. That was
9:33
Speaker 3: the question.
9:34
Speaker 2: Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Cheryl McCollum. But didn't
9:37
Speaker 2: the boyfriend have relatives and or friends on the local
9:41
Speaker 2: police force?
9:42
Speaker 9: Correct?
9:44
Speaker 5: Nick a House and he was fired actually for interfering
9:47
Speaker 5: with a police investigation.
9:48
Speaker 2: This investigation, this investigation absolutely so bringing the FBI, I think.
9:53
Speaker 5: Was the right call for a multitude of reasons. It
9:56
Speaker 5: appeared we have a kidnapping because her car was found
9:59
Speaker 5: somewhere else ease and cell phone in purse. So you know,
10:03
Speaker 5: they can do things rapidly that some local law enforcement
10:06
Speaker 5: maybe cannot do. But in this situation, you have someone
10:10
Speaker 5: that was the boyfriend who was the last person to
10:14
Speaker 5: be seen with her alive. He was visiting his family
10:17
Speaker 5: farm with her at the time. And then, you know,
10:21
Speaker 5: we always love this when they say, well I woke
10:24
Speaker 5: up and she was just gone.
10:25
Speaker 3: On as a matter of fact, you're right. But I
10:27
Speaker 3: can tell you one thing.
10:28
Speaker 2: Has anybody ever heard the phrase one bad apple spoils
10:33
Speaker 2: the whole bunch?
10:49
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
10:54
Speaker 2: Just Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
10:59
Speaker 2: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star
11:02
Speaker 2: of a hitting series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
11:05
Speaker 3: Joe Scott.
11:06
Speaker 2: When you have a police officer on your force that
11:10
Speaker 2: is related to or connected to the suspect, the defendant,
11:16
Speaker 2: the person of interest, any of that, and that person
11:21
Speaker 2: has the opportunity, has been given the opportunity to tamper
11:27
Speaker 2: with evidence, or impede the investigation in any way.
11:31
Speaker 3: You screwed up.
11:33
Speaker 2: The whole kit and kaboodle has screwed up if you
11:38
Speaker 2: have allowed an officer access to information, access to evidence,
11:44
Speaker 2: access or opportunity to pull strings behind the scenes. Oh
11:48
Speaker 2: hgwln Oh that's why you got to have the FBI in.
11:53
Speaker 2: Forget about the cars found in another location, yes, which
11:56
Speaker 2: means a kidnapping, yes, which is under FBI jurisdiction. But
12:00
Speaker 2: still you had a cohort of the defendant on the
12:06
Speaker 2: police force pulling strings.
12:09
Speaker 3: It stinks, Morgan, it stinks.
12:12
Speaker 10: Yes, it does. And here's the thing. When you think
12:14
Speaker 10: about an investigative team, like in this particular case, we
12:18
Speaker 10: have the locals there within a bubble, there within their
12:22
Speaker 10: own investigative bubble, and it's kind of a closed loop
12:25
Speaker 10: where that information kind of circles around within that environment.
12:28
Speaker 10: You got to prosecutor and everybody else that's in there.
12:30
Speaker 10: When you bring in the FBI, they're outside of that bubble.
12:34
Speaker 10: But that's a good thing because their investigation is running parallel.
12:38
Speaker 10: And think about the FBI is this Having worked in
12:41
Speaker 10: many cases with them, they like to get information, but
12:45
Speaker 10: not a lot flows back out of them because they
12:48
Speaker 10: keep their own closed loop.
12:49
Speaker 2: Can I boil that down for you, Joe Scott. They
12:51
Speaker 2: don't give a flying fig what anybody in town thinks.
12:56
Speaker 2: Who's second cousin related to mama's sass and blah blah blah.
13:01
Speaker 3: They don't care. They're the FBI.
13:03
Speaker 2: They're there to piss you off and make you angry
13:07
Speaker 2: and think, oh bigfoot, and they do the job.
13:10
Speaker 3: You see FBI coming in, it's over, forget it.
13:13
Speaker 10: Well, they know the pressure points and where to apply pressure.
13:17
Speaker 10: And I refer to it many times as the FBI stare.
13:20
Speaker 10: You know when you speak to them, it's not necessarily vacant,
13:24
Speaker 10: but you know that there's nothing that's necessarily going to
13:26
Speaker 10: flow back out. But there's there's kind of a darker,
13:29
Speaker 10: insidious thing with this case that's not being mentioned here.
13:32
Speaker 3: I'll mention it.
13:33
Speaker 10: What is it? It's the homicide of Tommy Ballard.
13:36
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm getting to that.
13:38
Speaker 2: Okay, well, lead, but it's all a lead when it
13:44
Speaker 2: comes to this case. Okay, I go very methodically, believe
13:50
Speaker 2: it or not, through the evidence, because that's the way
13:54
Speaker 2: you win a case. You cannot run into a case
13:57
Speaker 2: willy nilly. You have to go in a methodical or
14:00
Speaker 2: first I'm dealing with Crystal, and they were getting to
14:03
Speaker 2: what you just accurately said, Fallon Glick WDRB. What precisely
14:11
Speaker 2: got the boyfriend's brother fired.
14:15
Speaker 7: Well, Nick how Key worked for the Artstown Police Department
14:19
Speaker 7: and the chief there fired him because he was interfering
14:22
Speaker 7: with the investigation. He called the brother during his police
14:26
Speaker 7: interrogation and you could tell he didn't want him talking
14:28
Speaker 7: to police. And in his own investigation, he said he
14:32
Speaker 7: was just doing that to protect his brother because he
14:35
Speaker 7: know how he knows how interrogations work. But the chief
14:38
Speaker 7: didn't like that answer, and so he said, you failed
14:41
Speaker 7: to cooperate, so he fired him.
14:43
Speaker 2: And the investigating body is not that particular police force.
14:49
Speaker 3: The investigative body is who It.
14:51
Speaker 7: Was the Nelson County Sheriff's Office at the time. And
14:55
Speaker 7: Nick hawk Brooks's brother worked for the Barstown City Police Department.
15:00
Speaker 7: But they share a building and then there's you know,
15:03
Speaker 7: there's a wall in between, so they're in the same building.
15:07
Speaker 3: Guys, take a listen to this.
15:08
Speaker 11: Crystal Rodgers, a mother of five, disappeared in July twenty fifteen.
15:11
Speaker 11: In October of that year, the Nelson County. Shaff's office
15:15
Speaker 11: named for boyfriend Brooks Hawk, the main suspect who was
15:17
Speaker 11: never arrested or charged. The FBI ripped up the driveway
15:21
Speaker 11: of a home How built, and just last year, the
15:23
Speaker 11: FBI was back of the Hawk farm for a five
15:25
Speaker 11: day search. On June twenty first of this year, another man,
15:29
Speaker 11: Joseph Lawson, was indicted for tampering with physical evidence in.
15:32
Speaker 3: The Rogers case.
15:33
Speaker 11: On July twenty fourth, Lawson was indicted on a conspiracy
15:37
Speaker 11: to commit murder charge. Lawson's connection to Hawck is not known.
15:41
Speaker 11: We have learned Lawson's dad worked for Halck. On September seventh,
15:45
Speaker 11: Lawson pleaded not guilty in Nelson's Circuit Court.
15:48
Speaker 8: We've reached out to Crystal Rodgers' family. So far, we
15:51
Speaker 8: haven't heard anything other than a couple family members showing
15:55
Speaker 8: up here to say they're happy to see him behind bars.
15:58
Speaker 8: We also heard neighbors yell from their porches saying they
16:02
Speaker 8: were happy to see him go in to this facility.
16:05
Speaker 2: People actually hanging off their porches clapping and yelling, so
16:12
Speaker 2: happy that an arrest has finally been made in the
16:15
Speaker 2: disappearance and death of Crystal Rogers.
16:19
Speaker 3: You were hearing our friends at w d RB.
16:22
Speaker 2: Who is the co defendant, Joseph Lawson back to Fallen
16:28
Speaker 2: Glick and what do we believe his involvement is.
16:31
Speaker 7: Well, it's really still unclear what exactly his involvement was,
16:35
Speaker 7: but we know his father, Steve Lawson, had called Brooks
16:41
Speaker 7: how the night Crystal Crystal disappeared and that phone call.
16:47
Speaker 7: Brooks Hougue was asked about that phone call during his
16:50
Speaker 7: police interrogation, and he didn't really seem to remember what
16:54
Speaker 7: it was about. So he called Steve Lawson and said, hey,
16:58
Speaker 7: do you remember what I was calling you about that night?
17:01
Speaker 7: And he goes, oh, sure, he wanted a number for
17:03
Speaker 7: a house because he built homes and he has all
17:07
Speaker 7: these rental properties. And so it was a late night
17:10
Speaker 7: phone call, only lasted several seconds, and mister Lawson had
17:15
Speaker 7: said he needed something from Crystal. And then the detective asked, well,
17:19
Speaker 7: if Crystal was right with you in the truck, why
17:21
Speaker 7: didn't you just ask her then? And he said, oh,
17:23
Speaker 7: we just figure out Monday what he wanted. So it
17:26
Speaker 7: was it was a suspicious phone call.
17:28
Speaker 2: I find it very very probative to you, Cheryl McCollum
17:34
Speaker 2: that this seemingly seeming co defendant, Joseph Lawson was arrested,
17:40
Speaker 2: charged with conspiracy to commit murder and Crystal's disappearance.
17:45
Speaker 3: He of course, is planned not guilty.
17:47
Speaker 2: But now Houke's arrested, do you believe Lawson is talking?
17:54
Speaker 5: I think it's time to make a deal, one hundred percent.
17:57
Speaker 5: He was only protected as long as they couldn't get
18:00
Speaker 5: to the next person. Well they've done that now, So
18:03
Speaker 5: the first one that talks is going to get the deal.
18:06
Speaker 5: And you've got so many people involved with this thing.
18:08
Speaker 5: Nancy's not just grandma, and you've got Danny Singleton, who
18:13
Speaker 5: was already arrested for thirty eight counts of perjury, so
18:17
Speaker 5: he ain't trying to tell the truth about what happened either.
18:19
Speaker 5: So all these people, you're gonna shake that backet up,
18:22
Speaker 5: and whoever follows out first get for deal.
18:24
Speaker 2: Well, I believe that the authorities are trying to get
18:26
Speaker 2: evidence against the boyfriend. Nobody else had a dog in
18:30
Speaker 2: the fight. Who else would want Crystal Rodgers dead?
18:32
Speaker 5: Others?
18:33
Speaker 6: James, you know, I think it's very interesting, and I
18:36
Speaker 6: think it's probably a good strategy. And I don't think
18:38
Speaker 6: this was by accident that they arrested this lossing guy
18:42
Speaker 6: prior to coming after Holp. I believe that they milked
18:47
Speaker 6: him for every piece of information that they could get
18:49
Speaker 6: out of him, that they built the best case they
18:52
Speaker 6: can with whatever he had to offer, and the strategy
18:54
Speaker 6: that they used was they want the small fish to
18:57
Speaker 6: get to the big fish. That's a common law enforcement tactic.
19:00
Speaker 2: It is quite effective, very effective, and the timing cannot
19:03
Speaker 2: be ignored. First he gets arrested, and then following that,
19:07
Speaker 2: give it a breather, the boyfriend is arrested.
19:10
Speaker 3: No coincid.
19:11
Speaker 2: Speaking of the boyfriend, we of course are talking about
19:15
Speaker 2: Brooks Hawk. Take a listen in our cut two three
19:19
Speaker 2: one what he said to me, Brooks. You go to
19:21
Speaker 2: bed and she's still playing games on her phone. The
19:25
Speaker 2: next morning, around eight o'clock, you notice that she's missing.
19:28
Speaker 3: Did you report her missing?
19:31
Speaker 9: No, ma'am, why That is a great question and one
19:35
Speaker 9: that I definitely want to hear the other public in
19:39
Speaker 9: the media. I was not in the least little bit
19:45
Speaker 9: alarmed in any way.
19:46
Speaker 11: Shape or form.
19:48
Speaker 9: We have had a stress relationship at times, and one
19:53
Speaker 9: of the ways that Crystal has always chose to the
19:58
Speaker 9: Coper to deal with that is going to a young
20:03
Speaker 9: woman's name Sabrina, that is her cousin, her dad brother's daughter,
20:09
Speaker 9: whom she's very close to, that she spent the night
20:13
Speaker 9: there on several occasions.
20:15
Speaker 3: Can you say several? Do you mean one three twenty.
20:20
Speaker 9: In the neighborhood of four to six and you know
20:22
Speaker 9: another thing?
20:24
Speaker 2: To anybody on the panel, jump in, let's try, Doctor
20:27
Speaker 2: Jeff Kalashevski, forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides.
20:32
Speaker 3: Doctor Klashewski, thank you for being with us.
20:34
Speaker 2: I don't recall how being front and center posting flyers,
20:40
Speaker 2: speaking to the press, begging for answers, going on searches.
20:45
Speaker 2: If I'm wrong, anybody jump in and tell me I'm wrong.
20:48
Speaker 2: But I find that very very disturbing, doctor Klashewski.
20:52
Speaker 12: Yeah, one thing that's really interesting was how and his brother,
20:56
Speaker 12: for that fact, are not acting like they're very innocent. Typically,
21:00
Speaker 12: if someone's significant other girlfriend is missing, particularly sort of
21:06
Speaker 12: that small town culture, everyone gets involved, everyone's distressed, everyone's worried,
21:14
Speaker 12: and we didn't see that in this case.
21:15
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, fell in Glick wd Arby.
21:18
Speaker 2: What did we see?
21:19
Speaker 3: What was Hop's reaction? To Crystal going missing.
21:22
Speaker 7: You know, he just didn't seem concerned really at all.
21:25
Speaker 7: And everyone questioned, Will, why aren't you helping with any
21:29
Speaker 7: of these searches because there were so many, and he
21:31
Speaker 7: said he was conducting his own on his own time.
21:34
Speaker 7: But still nobody saw any of that. You know, I
21:38
Speaker 7: asked him a few years ago. I had called him
21:40
Speaker 7: up because you know, we had never talked to him.
21:42
Speaker 7: He doesn't do interview so I did a phone interview
21:45
Speaker 7: with him, and I said, why don't you do anything.
21:48
Speaker 7: You know, it's been a few years your girlfriend, you
21:50
Speaker 7: had a child with this woman. You don't seem to
21:53
Speaker 7: care at all. And he said he had been advised
21:56
Speaker 7: to ride the wave and keep riding the wave, and
21:59
Speaker 7: he said that has worked out great for him thus far.
22:02
Speaker 3: Well, you've just given me so much information.
22:05
Speaker 2: Fouling Gli joining us WDRB ride the way it's worked
22:09
Speaker 2: out well for him. Me me, me, me, me, me
22:14
Speaker 2: me me. Is that all this guy cares about? Isn't
22:17
Speaker 2: that called a narcissist? Doctor Tealoshevsky, Yes, I saw.
22:22
Speaker 12: That, and that's one of the first things that I thought.
22:26
Speaker 12: You know, narcissists are quite famous for they think they
22:30
Speaker 12: know everything, and they think they have control over everything,
22:34
Speaker 12: and they're sort of not connected with reality and recognizing
22:40
Speaker 12: that the way they're behaving or not behaving may seem
22:44
Speaker 12: odd or suspect to others, they think, if this is
22:46
Speaker 12: the way that I'm going to behave, then it's the
22:48
Speaker 12: right way to behave. Another point I want to make too,
22:53
Speaker 12: is what's interesting is that they don't want to give
22:56
Speaker 12: any tips to people who are planning murders. But when
22:59
Speaker 12: you see people who commit a murder and then they
23:03
Speaker 12: try to act in a certain way, they get very
23:08
Speaker 12: focused on acting in ways that does not make them
23:11
Speaker 12: look guilty. But the piece they forget is they don't
23:15
Speaker 12: act in ways that make them look innocent. And I
23:18
Speaker 12: think that was demonstrated in this case where Houck was
23:21
Speaker 12: not involved. Did not seem very concerned about his girlfriend.
23:25
Speaker 3: Missing Ride the Wave.
23:27
Speaker 2: I don't really know what that means ride the Wave,
23:30
Speaker 2: and his strategy of doing nothing to find the mother
23:34
Speaker 2: of his child was quote working out for him. Well,
23:38
Speaker 2: you heard part of what how told me. Take a
23:41
Speaker 2: listen now to what we know about his police interview
23:45
Speaker 2: Cut two two nine WDRB.
23:47
Speaker 13: Hou's police interview when investigators questioned him right after Rogers
23:51
Speaker 13: disappeared in July twenty fifteen.
23:53
Speaker 4: Do you know anybody did would want to hear?
23:56
Speaker 10: I mean as far as I those a well while Blumers,
24:01
Speaker 10: I know that.
24:02
Speaker 13: Police also question how could the time about his relationship
24:05
Speaker 13: with Rogers and whether they were splitting up. They were
24:08
Speaker 13: dating and living together. He says, if they ever talked
24:11
Speaker 13: about splitting up, they would always make up and find
24:14
Speaker 13: themselves back together.
24:15
Speaker 14: Well, did I not tell you when you come in
24:17
Speaker 14: here and say down today that right now you're the
24:19
Speaker 14: main person of injury?
24:20
Speaker 9: So sorry?
24:20
Speaker 14: And I explained to you the reason that you're the
24:22
Speaker 14: main person of interest, right you're the last person to
24:24
Speaker 14: see your life right. And I went through your timeline
24:29
Speaker 14: with you and explained to you that there's gaps in
24:31
Speaker 14: your timeline, right, be it good, bad, or indifferent. You
24:35
Speaker 14: can't remember some things about Saturday. You can't remember some
24:38
Speaker 14: things about Sunday. That's not a judgment against you, that's
24:42
Speaker 14: just a fact.
24:43
Speaker 2: Can't remember what he was doing around the time that
24:47
Speaker 2: his girlfriend goes missing. And by the way, she's dead,
24:52
Speaker 2: her car, her cell phone, her purse found in another location.
24:57
Speaker 3: How did that happen?
25:11
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace James.
25:14
Speaker 2: Shell Nutt, a high profile lawyer joining us from the
25:17
Speaker 2: shell nut Law Firm dot com. As much as it
25:20
Speaker 2: pains me to remember, I remember every exact thing around
25:25
Speaker 2: the time my fiancee was killed.
25:28
Speaker 3: Everything. I remember the morning leading up to it. I
25:31
Speaker 3: remember the.
25:31
Speaker 2: PJS I had on standing outside and it was cold
25:34
Speaker 2: that morning, and the early morning when I waved goodbye
25:37
Speaker 2: to him as he left. I remember him driving away
25:39
Speaker 2: and throwing his left hand out of his car, waving goodbye.
25:45
Speaker 2: And I remember going to school and taking a statistics
25:48
Speaker 2: exam and coming out and walking across campus and stopping
25:51
Speaker 2: at a payphone to call the library where I worked
25:53
Speaker 2: to tell them I was late from the exam. I
25:55
Speaker 2: remember it crystal clear, like it just happened yesterday.
25:58
Speaker 3: How could he.
25:59
Speaker 2: Lose big chun of time around in his memory when
26:02
Speaker 2: his girlfriend goes missing.
26:04
Speaker 6: Well, he didn't lose chunks of time. They're in his memory.
26:07
Speaker 6: He knows exactly what he's just lying about him. He's
26:10
Speaker 6: lying about him because they don't benefit him. You know,
26:13
Speaker 6: this interview was a gold mine of information. It was
26:15
Speaker 6: the missing chunks, which is a red flag to investigators
26:19
Speaker 6: and not to mention the fact that he sits through
26:22
Speaker 6: the first hour of this interview just as a matter
26:25
Speaker 6: of fact and motionless talking about how this is going
26:28
Speaker 6: to affect him, is creating extra work for him to
26:31
Speaker 6: care for their child. Plus he can't remember all these facts.
26:35
Speaker 6: There's nothing that was said by Brooks Hawk that would
26:39
Speaker 6: lead you to believe that he was innocent in this interview,
26:42
Speaker 6: and there's all kinds of red flags that he's.
26:44
Speaker 2: Not to doctor Jeff Kalshewsky, forensic psychologist and author of
26:49
Speaker 2: Dark Side Way.
26:50
Speaker 12: In So, one of the things when people are trying
26:54
Speaker 12: to recollect and experience or an incident, when you are
27:00
Speaker 12: trying to fabricate it in your mind in the moment,
27:04
Speaker 12: in other words, you're trying to create the lives during
27:06
Speaker 12: the moment. You're going to miss things. You're going to
27:10
Speaker 12: have these blocks of times. You may have went into
27:13
Speaker 12: that interview already having your lie planned out in your head,
27:17
Speaker 12: but once you're under in police police interrogation, they're going
27:20
Speaker 12: to ask you questions you didn't anticipate and that you
27:23
Speaker 12: had not created the false answer for. So it's quite
27:28
Speaker 12: hallmark when a suspect is in an interrogation and they
27:34
Speaker 12: are guilty. They're not going to know how to answer
27:38
Speaker 12: many of these questions. They're going to show blocks of times,
27:40
Speaker 12: they're going to have incomplete answers and sometimes even contradict themselves.
27:44
Speaker 3: I also question Britton.
27:45
Speaker 2: How about his reaction when Christalton didn't show up to
27:50
Speaker 2: a get together a July fourth get together is let
27:53
Speaker 2: me just say, nonchalant, and that's certainly putting perfume on
27:58
Speaker 2: the pig Listen Brooks, did you go on to the
28:02
Speaker 2: July the fourth get.
28:03
Speaker 3: Together that day? Yes? I did, even though you didn't
28:07
Speaker 3: know where she was.
28:09
Speaker 15: I was expecting I putting in a phone call that
28:14
Speaker 15: morning and then around lunch, and usually the miximum period
28:19
Speaker 15: of time that she has stayed gone that it has
28:21
Speaker 15: only been like a day to a day and a
28:23
Speaker 15: half of the most and as a result of that,
28:27
Speaker 15: I thought that she would Did you try to call her?
28:32
Speaker 15: I'm sorry I didn't hear you, ma'am.
28:33
Speaker 2: Did you try to call her during that time?
28:37
Speaker 15: Not while I was there there at the at the
28:42
Speaker 15: fourth and I called her prior to leaving the head
28:46
Speaker 15: in that direction, yes, ma'am.
28:47
Speaker 2: So when she doesn't show up to a party, a
28:51
Speaker 2: big party, that Crystal was supposed to attend, but she
28:55
Speaker 2: doesn't show up. He does nothing. I mean, Cheryl McCollum.
28:59
Speaker 2: The other night, the Twins school had a get together
29:05
Speaker 2: of parents, and David was going to meet me there separately.
29:09
Speaker 2: And you know what else, Tonight there's a football game,
29:12
Speaker 2: and whether I know what's going on or not, I
29:15
Speaker 2: go to the football games, and David usually meets me
29:18
Speaker 2: there because we're coming from two different directions. If he
29:21
Speaker 2: hadn't shown up at that parent get together when he
29:24
Speaker 2: told me he was going to be there, or if
29:25
Speaker 2: he didn't show up at a football game, you don't
29:28
Speaker 2: think I would get out of those stands or leave
29:30
Speaker 2: that get together and get on every phone I've got,
29:33
Speaker 2: including my iPad, FaceTime, the Twins phones, your phone, Jackie's phone,
29:39
Speaker 2: any phone I could get and start calling and try
29:41
Speaker 2: to find him. Track him on Life three sixty, seeve
29:43
Speaker 2: he's had a wreck, See if something's happened to him.
29:46
Speaker 3: But this guy did nothing, he's saying, eh, No, I.
29:50
Speaker 5: Didn't try own an investigation, Nancy. I usually keep two lists,
29:53
Speaker 5: what they did and what they didn't do. This list
29:56
Speaker 5: of what he did not do. He didn't report her,
29:59
Speaker 5: missing her mama did. He doesn't call around her family
30:03
Speaker 5: and everybody else saying, hey, where is she? We got
30:05
Speaker 5: these five kids, somebody needs to help me take care
30:08
Speaker 5: of He didn't do that. He don't search for her.
30:12
Speaker 5: He don't demand that the police helped find her. He
30:15
Speaker 5: does it even today, demand that the police find the
30:18
Speaker 5: real killer. He's not making a plea right now saying
30:21
Speaker 5: y'all got the wrong person.
30:22
Speaker 2: You know what you know who you're reminded me of
30:24
Speaker 2: right now, A friend of both of ours, and that's
30:28
Speaker 2: smart Klass. When his daughter Pauli went missing and the
30:31
Speaker 2: police come bamming down on his door. Pauli ben at
30:35
Speaker 2: to spend the night party at her home with her
30:38
Speaker 2: mom and she was taken by a complete depraved pervert.
30:46
Speaker 2: She was horribly assaulted and murdered. So in the middle
30:50
Speaker 2: of him trying to figure out where is my daughter?
30:52
Speaker 2: The police or come on, come on, let's go. We
30:55
Speaker 2: want your fingerprints, you want your DNA, we want to
30:57
Speaker 2: know we hereabouts, we want to search your place. It's like,
30:59
Speaker 2: do it, take me, take me to the police station,
31:02
Speaker 2: do what you gotta do, but just find my daughter.
31:06
Speaker 3: He didn't care. He didn't care what they did.
31:08
Speaker 2: Then, Now, let's think about the exact polar opposite, Scott Peterson.
31:13
Speaker 3: What did he do?
31:14
Speaker 2: He got on the phone with his girlfriend, who didn't
31:17
Speaker 2: even know he was married.
31:18
Speaker 3: Saying, Hey, I'm in Paris.
31:23
Speaker 2: What we're celebrating New Year's I'm with my friends.
31:27
Speaker 3: Okay, that story stunk to high Heaven to start with.
31:30
Speaker 2: But that said, what did he do? He got to Lion.
31:33
Speaker 2: He didn't get to the police station to help. He
31:36
Speaker 2: got to lying and then goes on TV and says
31:40
Speaker 2: she was wonderful in other words like he already knows
31:43
Speaker 2: she's dead. And you know who called nine one one
31:48
Speaker 2: in this case fell Glick WDRB who called to report
31:52
Speaker 2: her missing?
31:53
Speaker 7: Oh, it was the mom, Scarry Balor. She called her
31:56
Speaker 7: and reported her missing. And that same day she dogrooks
32:00
Speaker 7: how kind of parking live somewhere? Because they just always
32:03
Speaker 7: seemed to run into each other. It's a small town,
32:06
Speaker 7: and he just seemed very unconcerned that she was in
32:10
Speaker 7: fact missing. And I want to point out too, when
32:13
Speaker 7: you're kind of talking about it, just not answering questions
32:16
Speaker 7: during the interrogation, and police have said about him and
32:20
Speaker 7: his brother, they both had convenient cases of amnesia because
32:25
Speaker 7: whenever they asked about something unrelated to Crystal, they gave
32:28
Speaker 7: very detailed answers.
32:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime they could trash Crystal, you mean, anytime they
32:32
Speaker 2: could say something bad about her, they would. They had
32:35
Speaker 2: all that memorize, all of her movements were memorized, but
32:38
Speaker 2: they couldn't say a thing about their what their movements
32:42
Speaker 2: were during their lapses of memory. Please do is this,
32:46
Speaker 2: doctor Jeff Kelishewski, Because you know what's odd, Doctor Kelishevski,
32:51
Speaker 2: is right around the time that Keith was murdered my fiance,
32:54
Speaker 2: I remember it very clearly, but as time moves forward,
32:57
Speaker 2: like it's really hard for me to remember what happened.
33:00
Speaker 2: And at the funeral, I just remember little glimpses of it.
33:03
Speaker 2: At the murder trial, I remember it's like someone's running
33:08
Speaker 2: a movie and then the screen goes dark, and then
33:11
Speaker 2: you see another glimpse, and then it goes dark again.
33:13
Speaker 2: But I remember everything very clearly about the time surrounding
33:18
Speaker 2: his death. What do you make of both he and
33:21
Speaker 2: his brothers lapses in memory?
33:24
Speaker 12: Right, So when we're faced with an intense trauma like
33:28
Speaker 12: what you just shared of your experience, it's not uncommon
33:31
Speaker 12: for us to sort of blank some of that out
33:33
Speaker 12: or block some of that out. When it's not a
33:36
Speaker 12: traumatic event. We have a much better and sharper memory. Now.
33:41
Speaker 12: In this case, you know, with Hope, he had very
33:46
Speaker 12: much rehearsed answers, and we saw that in the clip
33:50
Speaker 12: that you played when you spoke with him on the phone,
33:53
Speaker 12: when he started to talk about how she'd be gone
33:55
Speaker 12: for a day or a day and a half, that
33:56
Speaker 12: was quite rehearsed. He even said it very monotone when
34:00
Speaker 12: you asked him, did you call her? That wasn't a
34:03
Speaker 12: a question that he anticipated and he didn't have a
34:05
Speaker 12: prepared answer for. Another theory can be that, and I've
34:11
Speaker 12: talked about this on your podcast before, when people do
34:15
Speaker 12: carry out a murder, there's a lot of emotions that
34:18
Speaker 12: they didn't anticipate and they didn't expect, and sometimes remembering
34:24
Speaker 12: the details of what actually went down may not be
34:27
Speaker 12: very clear, But in this case it was. It sounds
34:31
Speaker 12: more like it was intentionally not being prepared with an
34:35
Speaker 12: answer for specific questions about details and blocks of time
34:39
Speaker 12: that the police asked and that you asked him when
34:41
Speaker 12: you had a conversation with him.
34:42
Speaker 2: That's what I love so much about cross examination. James
34:45
Speaker 2: shell Nutt, high profile lawyer joining us in Michelle law
34:48
Speaker 2: firm dot com, is that I love to cross examine
34:53
Speaker 2: and go out of order with the target on the stand.
34:58
Speaker 3: To get them all.
34:59
Speaker 2: Confee is not start chronologically, go out of order, be
35:04
Speaker 2: on one subject, then go to another subject, then go
35:06
Speaker 2: back to the first subject. Anything where they can't prepare
35:11
Speaker 2: a rehearsed answer, ask them questions about things, the things
35:15
Speaker 2: they don't expect to be asked about. And that's exactly
35:19
Speaker 2: what Kalashewski is saying, because it's true. Did you notice
35:23
Speaker 2: he had one rehearsed answer but then it was thrown
35:26
Speaker 2: a boomerang. It came back to hit him right in
35:28
Speaker 2: the neck. He didn't have an answer ready, No.
35:30
Speaker 6: He didn't. And that's a great tactic. I've used that
35:32
Speaker 6: tactic many times as well. It's quite effective, you know,
35:36
Speaker 6: Or to pick a topic that is really kind of
35:38
Speaker 6: the consequential, to start hammering on that right out of
35:41
Speaker 6: the gate, anything to get them out of that train
35:43
Speaker 6: of throat. You know, they put this lie together chronologically
35:46
Speaker 6: in their head, and once you start getting out that
35:48
Speaker 6: chronological order of how they've arranged this line in their head.
35:52
Speaker 6: It starts to fall apart.
35:53
Speaker 2: Of the Thames, is the death of Crystal Rogers connected
35:59
Speaker 2: to a bigger picture. Take a list to our cut
36:03
Speaker 2: two one two whas eleven.
36:05
Speaker 4: They are three of Kentucky's most high profile unsolved cases.
36:09
Speaker 4: The ambush killing of Bardstown police officer Jason Ellis, disappearance
36:14
Speaker 4: of mother of five Crystal Rogers, and fatal shooting of Rogers' dad,
36:19
Speaker 4: Tommy Baller. The FBI previously made it clear they are
36:22
Speaker 4: the lead on the Rogers case, but investigating all three.
36:26
Speaker 4: Saying this in a one on one interview back in
36:29
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, it is.
36:30
Speaker 10: Very rare to have all of these types of cases
36:34
Speaker 10: which are potentially connected in a small community.
36:38
Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, what would the connection of the other
36:43
Speaker 2: cases be two Crystal Rogers?
36:45
Speaker 5: Nancy, Again, I think we have to look at all
36:48
Speaker 5: of these people that are connected. So you've got Brooks,
36:51
Speaker 5: You've got his brother, You've got the coworker and his father,
36:53
Speaker 5: You've got grandma, you got Singleton. All of these people
36:57
Speaker 5: have things in common, whether it's making phone calls, the perjury,
37:01
Speaker 5: the fifth, the lion, you know, the keeping these secrets
37:05
Speaker 5: since two thoy fifteen. So you have to wonder why
37:10
Speaker 5: would Singleton get thirty eight charges of perjury, Why would
37:15
Speaker 5: this coworker accept these phone calls but then not tell anybody?
37:19
Speaker 5: Why are they talking about these rental properties?
37:21
Speaker 6: So all of.
37:22
Speaker 5: These dots, you're going to have to connect with these
37:25
Speaker 5: people that chose for eight years to not come forward,
37:30
Speaker 5: not tell what they know, but dig themselves into.
37:33
Speaker 3: A deeper hole.
37:33
Speaker 2: To you, Fan and Glick, what is the possible connection
37:38
Speaker 2: between Crystal Rogers case and the other murders.
37:42
Speaker 7: So family and a lot of the community, they believe
37:46
Speaker 7: that Tommy Ballard, Crystal's dad, was so involved in trying
37:50
Speaker 7: to find Crystal and doing his own interrogation and investigation
37:54
Speaker 7: to find his daughter. They believe that Tommy Ballard probably
37:58
Speaker 7: would have been yarded it out himself. And they believe
38:03
Speaker 7: that he was killed because maybe he was getting close
38:06
Speaker 7: to finding something out that he shouldn't have. And then
38:09
Speaker 7: the days leading up to his death, Sherry Ballard, his wife,
38:13
Speaker 7: said he felt like he was being.
38:15
Speaker 3: Followed And what about the law enforcement officer.
38:19
Speaker 7: Sure Nick how who he talked about, who got fired
38:22
Speaker 7: by the police chief. He worked the same shift as
38:26
Speaker 7: Jason Ellis who was ambushed and killed on his drive
38:31
Speaker 7: home from work one night when he saw some debris
38:34
Speaker 7: on the road, got out to move these tree limbs
38:37
Speaker 7: off the road, and that's when he got shot multiple
38:40
Speaker 7: times and.
38:40
Speaker 3: Killed execution style.
38:42
Speaker 2: And he worked on the same shift with the definite
38:47
Speaker 2: boyfriend's brother on the force. Wonder what he knew from
38:53
Speaker 2: working that shift. Wonder what if anything he knew. We
38:59
Speaker 2: wait all of these facts unfold. Goodbye sound