Latest / Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche / Transracialism: We Have Questions...Still (w. Dr. Rebecca Tuvel)

Transcript

Transracialism: We Have Questions...Still (w. Dr. Rebecca Tuvel) · Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Brief Recess.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I'm Michael Foot, I'm Melissa Albranch.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about being baby crazy,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: the woman who sent eighteen hundred lemons to her ex boyfriend,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: how messed up our healthcare system is, especially in light
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: of the Met Gala and Jeff Bezos and all the
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: celebrities who went. We're going to talk about Tucker Carlson's
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: bucket of wigs. We interviewed doctor Rebecca Tuvell about transracialism,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: which was a little bit wild for me. And we're
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: going to answer all your burning questions for my DMS.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: So stick around. I've got a freaky, deeky, wicked and
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: wild letter that you sent me, so you better sit
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: your ass down. You answer the phone with me like
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: I've called to you when you were driving with your mother, And.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I always tell people to be careful about what they're saying.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: You didn't even say hello.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I never do. I'm like, hey, my mom's in the
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: car because because I mean because usually like you'll say
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: something like yob and then you know, and then my
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: mom will always say something she was just like yes,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I mean they're good.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I love it because I really do. Only ever call
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: you when you're walking the dog or something horrific has happened, right,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: you are actually not not horrific, but like, No, you
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: call me all the times funny or crazy.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: No, you call me all the time for random stuff.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, and it's it's fine. It's it's fine.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: But it's not like I only call you when I've
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: got something to say. No, you call me with you
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: don't have anything to say, and it's fine.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: My friend has a role. Don't put Michael on speaker
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: in front of the kids, like or don't read out
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Michael's texts is like the role in her house.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: I think that that's probably a good rule.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: That's a good rule to have.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: How are you.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm baby crazy and I've never even cared
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: about kids. Okay, but I've been around a lot of
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: kids lately that didn't suck. They were like kind of
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: cool and fun to hang out with, and that's never
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: happened before. So like all the kids up until I
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: guess this weekend. If you're a kid and you've known
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: me before this weekend, I didn't.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Including Maddie and Zach, his niece and nephew. By the way.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I just like especially babies. Up until this moment, I've
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: just really not been like drawn to them or felt
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: an affinity for them. Yeah, you love babies.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: And I always feel like people don't believe me when
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: I say I always want to see a picture of
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: your kid. I always want to see a picture.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: And she really means it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I mean it, I really do. Like don't feel like,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: oh Melissa is not good.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Yes she will and even if she doesn't know you, Nope,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I'll be like, oh, my friends.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Show a baby, had a baby, Show me the baby.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: And Melissa will be like, send me that ship.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: And not only that, but like so if Michael knows
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: somebody who's had a baby, and I'm like, come up
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: to the baby way and he's like, I don't know.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, how long is the baby? I don't know.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I'm like, how's mom? I guess she's okay, like the
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: most useless man and like and then I And the
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: thing is I asked these questions knowing that you're not
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: going to know, but I ask you anyway. So really
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: the problem is me, at this point, you're never going
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: to stop asking me because I'm never gonna because I
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: really want to know. Let me ask you a question,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: if there any do you feel like you might like
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: kids enough to have one or just enough to not
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: hate being around them.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I think there was no wrong answer. I think there
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: would have to be something major that happened that changed
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: my life and my perspective that would shift how I
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: feel about kids in my life, because right now there's
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: no place for it and there's no real desire for it. Okay,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: but I do feel like I like them enough where
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: that could change. But I don't feel like it's anytime soon.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: I don't foresee that happening. Ya.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Do you think that there'll ever be a point in
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: your life where you regret not having a kid.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. I also don't really think about
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: my life in those like big sort of platitudes right
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: where I'm thinking, oh am I gonna I don't really
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: think about that. It's a little bit I guess my
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: perspective is a little bit more truncated. This is sidebar.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Let's get into a personal story from the week. I
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: know that you have a unique family dynamic right with
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: your husband and you have a stepdaughter. Let's get into
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: it a little bit.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: You know what there I think that there was a
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: point where I felt like I really want to be like,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I want to have a child. And then when I
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: started to realize that time was running out right, the
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: clock was ticking on it, I feel like I grieved
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: it just for like a minute. But now I don't
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: look back thinking to myself, Oh, no, so sad that
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I never had a child. And I think that for me,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: it's because there have been a lot. There are a
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: lot of kids in my life. I think that's the
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: same for me, there are a ton of kids in
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: my life. I was lucky enough to marry a man
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: who had a daughter that I liked, and she liked me,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: and we get along really well. Her mother is a
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: decent enough person. We get along just fine. Yeah, that
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: is the ideal, because because KP was eleven when Anya
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: and I started dating, and eleven is a weird age
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: and I usually got to tell you, that's the age
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: group that I don't like, like ten to like thirteen.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: The age group the TV show Pen fifteen where they're
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: just so awkward.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: They're super awkward. They all smell kind of gamey and
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: like the teeth are too big and the glasses are weird,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: the hair is fucked up. They're not that nice and
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: the hormones are weird. I'm good, but and I also
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: think that when he and I first started dating, we
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: spent a lot of time alone before I met her,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: and then I would only see her like Saturday afternoon
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: for a couple of hours, right, And then it wasn't
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: until later that we spent a lot like I spent
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: entire weekends with them and then moved in together. So
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I feel like like I'm a I know that I'm
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: like a bonus mom and I am everyone's favorite. Onto.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's kind of cool though, Yeah.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: And I mean and I also my cousins who have kids,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: when they sent their kids to college, they all came
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: to New York, and I was like, mom, on.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: The ground, you can buy them beer, you can buy
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: them condoms, you can buy them cigarettes, Like you're that
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: you're there.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I used to just always say, you know, no guns
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: and no knives, like no guns and no knives, keeps like,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, right, I feel like you can because I like,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: if I were to say don't drink, that's I be
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: a hypocrite because they're going to don't have sex. Hypocrisy.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I would rather just give you condoms. Please wrap it up,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: wrap it up, keep it clean and tight, you know
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: what I mean.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: It's not going to stop them.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: It won't stop them, and it'll put them in a
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: place of if God forbid something happens, they won't have
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: anybody to talk to. So I want to be the
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: person that you could be, like.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, when you tell a teenager, know, don't do that thing,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: what you're doing is just telling them to be ashamed
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: of it when they eventually inevitably do it, if it's
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: something that's inevitable.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Right or I mean, I think you know my parents.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I grew up in a really strict household, and my
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: mom and dad didn't want me to do anything. And
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: so what it did instead was that it made me
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: really wily, and it made me super sneaky, and I
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: lied incessantly and they never knew where I really was
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: because I had always lied about it. And I remember
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: one time I had see something on the which so
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: much more dangerous. Of course, this is so cool course,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: and I mean, and the funny thing is is like,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: and I mean this sincerely, I wasn't really up to
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: anything bad. I toltally look, I never did like I
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: just was not interested. But I was sixteen years old.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I wanted to go out with my friends.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: I could have gotten lost or in the wrong place,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: and no one knows where you are, like, you.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Know, especially you know, when you're like a sixteen year
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: old girl and like a twenty five year old man
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: like comes up to you, You're like, there's a little
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: part of you that's like flattered, right, Like, oh yeah,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: but that's really unsafe. Yeah, right, it's really unsafe. And
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't know. I was making weird decisions
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: because I felt like I had to lie all the time.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Did you have older boyfriends? Because I did? Yeah, And
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: I think back on that because I'm the age now
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: are you of the boyfriend? And I'm like that was sick. Yeah,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: that was really messed up. But you didn't know that. No,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: But even and like back when I was twenty, he
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: was twenty five and I was sixteen. When I was
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: twenty five, I was like, wait a minute, and that
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: is that was not cool?
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: And like the idea of like as a grown twenty
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: five year old man hooking up with the sixteen year
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: old child.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: When I was twenty five, I didn't want to hook
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: up with the twenty three year old. I was like,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: that is too immature for me. I'm not interested in
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: what they're up to totally. Yeah, but you had older boyfriends.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, I did. Yeah, And that's all we're
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: going to say about.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, anyway, let's get into your algorithm is showing.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about what's going on in our feeds, what's
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: happening in the news, what is all over your timeline
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: because mine.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Is, Yeah, what's in yours?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, because I did want to talk about this because
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I saw it this morning, and there are a lot
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: of headlines right now, you guys, and there's a lot
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: of breaking news, and there's a lot of noise, and
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: we're not talking about the really important stuff. For example,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the Canadian woman who sent eighteen hundred lemons in one
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: at a time over two hundred and forty one days
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: to her ex boyfriend. Okay, this is a uber eats criminal.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: But other that see, I saw this and I was
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: like confused. Other than being really annoying, she's.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Just was like, I'm going to annoy the shit out
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: of this man for a year and sent him one
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: lemon at a time.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Right when I first read it, I was like, oh,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: I thought she'd sent him like eighteen hundred lemons at once, right.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: One at a time. One arrived during a job interview.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: But so so I think it's brilliant, right.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Like, no, I like, do we strive to be that petty.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: One arrived at the hospital when when he was visiting
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: his father?
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: So I guess I wonder why how did she know
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: that he was going to be at the hospital visiting?
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Did she poison the dad to make sure that he
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: was in the house.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: This is why there are criminal charges because it's like stalking,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: is it?
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Though?
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I think that's what she's being brought up on, like
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: a actual charges. CJ fact checked me here because I
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: think she did not fully understand it was a problem.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I think I'm on team Brittany based on what based
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: on the information that I have, it's one lemon a day,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: who cares.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Honestly, if he were a pirate, this would be like
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: prepping him for scurvy in a way, like truly she's
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: got she's looking out for him in a certain word,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I just don't understand.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: I mean in some of the stuff he's like now
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: he's got citrus based distress. Give me a fucking brain.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: The defense argued the deliveries were fruit and therefore not threatening.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: This is am I wrong?
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Right, No, I agree with you. I think it's like
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I think if.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: It was something like more meant like if she had
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: been sending him like dog turds, it'd be more because
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: that's disgusting and it's like possibly there's like disease. Yeah,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: but this is a lemon.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: There's a whole side of TikTok that tells you how
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: to get revenge on an X without breaking the law.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Some of them are like throw bamboo seeds on his lawn.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, I know, because bamboo it's really infasic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I ended up on bamboo talk after I saw that
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: one that I thought was evil and brilliant was you
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: put raw shrimp in the pole that holds up their
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: shower curtain.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: That way they don't know where the smell is coming
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: from and they can never find it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: I had a friend of mine, so you know, Michael knows,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: But I don't know if people know that I scrap book, right,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I won't be judged by you. I'm no, no, no, no
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: no no.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people come out with like oh with mentioning a hobby.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: But I'm just not ready, just ready.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: But you've known that. I've been scrapbooking since we've known
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: each other, I know.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: But you seem so normal up until you mentioned it,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: and then it just really mecaps me. I forgot this
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: about you.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: So when I first st I did a lot of
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: the women were significantly older than me. So there was
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: this woman. She actually passed away last year. She her husband.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: She and her husband were getting a divorce and he
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: was moving out. Okay, so before he moved out, he
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: was really allergic to fiberglass. She washed his underwear in fiberglass,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: like you know, the he got a fib a fire
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: crouch h But he didn't know why she washed all
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: his clothes with the Oh my god, right.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: So he's got a mysterious rash.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Not knowing what the hell happened. I was like, you
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: know what.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Has someone who's gotten a mysterious rash from like a
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: hot tub That would have sent me spiraling? I would
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: have been on the virtual zoo the doctor.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is this is I mean she did this?
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, probably like in the eighties or something.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: But I'd rest her soul Wow, good for her.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Oh she was. She was like she was just like
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: you know, I was. I was going to be civil
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: and he cheated and I kicked his ass out. However,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm all about.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Crime and punishment until it comes to an next boyfriend,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: and then everything goes out the window for me. I'm like,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: it's a man, we kind of have to scale this one.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: We have to do we have to use a sliding
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: scale for this punishment. Yeah, like what's like, what's the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: sliding scale?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Like? How bad?
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know. My first boyfriend cheated on me. So
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I'm just like perpetually jaded. So I'm just like everything
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I approach is like, if you cheat on me, they
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: will need tweezers to identify the body. Like it is
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: not gonna.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Be but like you know, it's records, right, No, I
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: hear you. I think once I've had some time, I
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: stop caring.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true. I do forget pretty much everything
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: anyone ever tells me. But like eventually I just truly
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: forget what happened. Yeah, but that core emotional trauma stays
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: of just like yeah, when it comes to like boyfriend revenge,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I just know that.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are definitely some people where you're like,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: you know what, I can never be in the same
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: room with you ever again, Like I can never see
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: you again. I don't ever want to talk to you again.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: But I also have no need.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: To like.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know, do like wash your underwear in fiberglass,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: like I just it's I'm good for.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Someone who's like keyed cars. I'm like surprised you've said that.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: You're saying that, like I'm surprised that you are. You're like,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I don't need revenge as someone who was the lookout
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: while your friend drilled holes in a man's masta.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: No, it was a Ford probe.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Pinto, I'm not that old.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: It was a prob.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I think there's a little revisionist history here.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know it was a probe. It was a probe.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, okay, but like I wouldn't do that.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Now, You're like, I've got ship to do. I got laundry,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I got dishes, tired.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I'm tired, I got a I don't like it outside
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: like I'm good.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: We barely have voting rights anymore. Let's just just kind on.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that. So back to Brittany, I
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: think that I don't understand what is illegal about this.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: So she apparently did this. She sent on eight and
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: forty seven lemons in single orders over two hundred and
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: forty one days, sometimes multi multi orders per day to
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: her ex So like the one that arrived during his
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: job interview at the job interview itself, and so somebody
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: interrupted the job interview to give him the lemon.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: That's probably the door to thatsher where you.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Meet the pen like this, it's so it's so stupid.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Well, because did you see his name as Cole? Yeah,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, he deserves it people named Cole. I'm sorry, No,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: That is not what do you have against Cole?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I just I just think that's one of those names
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: where it's like he's probably a douche.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: What else is a name like that?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Jamison? I don't like anyone named Jamison. I think about you. Well,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I don't trust any Matts there's you are. I am
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: judging mats until proven otherwise, I.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Think what I hate. I don't think there's a name
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: that invokes something to me. But I get upset when
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: people spell their names wrong, like Justin with the why wrong? Yeah,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: it's wrong. That's not how you spell justin it's not
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: or like do you know what I mean? Or like,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: and it's not even the person's fault, it's their parents' fault.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: But like how much does your parents? Does your parents
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: hate you?
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: His parents? Like I want it to be really hard
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: for them to order from Starbucks?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Justin with the why did you or anything.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Like that, did you watch the mac Gala or like
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: see did it like cross your feet at all in
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: your algorithm? Not at all?
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Well a little bit, a little bit, but like I
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: think I was disinterested. So I'm trying to like cultivate
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: my algorithm so that I don't get stuck on things
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: that annoy me. And I was not interested, so I
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: flashed by it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: That's a beautiful like New Year's resolution.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's what I really need to do is
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: get all social media.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Well, because like the algorithm is a reflection of life,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: and so for you to be like I'm going to
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: blow right past the things that annoy me and focus
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: on what I like. That's like kind of a life philosophy.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, I say that, but then you're kicking people
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: on the subway.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I'm about to kick you I do end up on
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: like the weird side of TikTok, like I'm I've gotten
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: I'm on too, like pedicure TikTok, podietary TikTok, which is
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: people are struggling out there. It's really bad.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can handle.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: No, I know, and some of it is like so
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: deeply disturbing, and I think, and so what I really
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: think it's a reflection of what happens when people don't
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: have access to healthcare. Do you know what I mean?
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: It's like a yes, it's like ew, but like it's
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: like that because because if you could afford to go
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: to the doctor to take care of something, if you
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: had healthcare, you probably would not wait until you couldn't
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: walk right. You probably would not wait until whatever it
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: was on your foot became gangrenous. Do you know what
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I mean? Yeah, I watched that. Oh I watched that.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: You know what else I watch? And then this is
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: really disgusting, like the earwax ones.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: No, I have to go. I can't handle that. I
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: can't I don't have the stomach.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I'm not even ashamed. I'm just like this is who
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I am at this point. This is what I'm looking
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: at I don't want to look at ai fruit anymore,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: but I will look at the dietary TikTok. I am
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: a very damaged person. But yeah, I mean, and I
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: say that this sort of like ties in with what
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: happened with Obamacare, right, those subsidies that expired. Okay. I
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: was looking at somebody who was saying that his premium
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: had been something like three hundred dollars a month that
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: he was managing to take care and it bumped up
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: to eighteen hundred dollars a month, right, and he was
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: just like, well, Okay.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Then it drives me insane because it's like, at what
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: point do we hold corporations accountable for their activity? And
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: it's just so sick to me. I mean, every other
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: country in the world, like every modern nation has healthcare,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: and it's still this like hot button issue here as
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: if it's like debatable if people need this or not.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You know. I was listening to something the other day
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: about the political violence right now people had become sort
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: of really apathetic, and one of the examples that they mentioned,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: even though it wasn't really political, was the murder of
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: the United Health not a healthcare CEO I don't know
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: that it is an indication of like bloodlust, right, but
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I do think it's like we understand how somebody could
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: be so frustrated at their health care system, right Like
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I was. Remember I think I told you that I
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: needed to have a sleep study done, right, Yes?
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Wait what happened?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Nothing happened because my insurance won't cover it. No, no,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: they won't cover it.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And like some of the best insurance, yeah.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And they won't cover it. And I think the out
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: of pocket of it was something astronomical. It was like
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars. Yeah, And so so then what am
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I to do? Right that my doctor's saying that I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: need it, my insurance company is saying that I don't
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: need it? Really, right, this is and that's and I
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: think it's things like that. And at least for me,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: this is not like I don't have cancer, God forbid,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: but like when there are people who have diseases like that,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: illness is like that. Could you imagine being a parent
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: of a child who has something and you have.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Insurance and also you and I are so frustrated by this,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and we are the most privileged people, right, Like we
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: live in a major city where access to so many
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: different healthcare and we have good coverage, yeah, we have
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: good insurance. Yeah, And still it's like just constantly whittling away.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: It's constant, and I mean, and I've been like and
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I'm hoping that we get to talk about this another time,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: but like, just there's this guy that I follow on
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: social media and I can't remember his name right now,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: but he's a social worker. He's going for his PhD.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: And his job is he advocates for people with their
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: insurance company for them to get coverage, coverage, and so
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: it's we always see it from his perspective, him talking
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: on the phone and he's saying, the doctor said that
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: this person needed you said no. We've been back and forth,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: and now this person is dead. Right. And the thing
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: about it is that the person who's making the decision
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: is not somebody who is a medical professional. It's a
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: bean counter, right, And so that is why, right, that's
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: why I'm on pedetary TikTok looking at stuff like that,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: and that's why people are not taking good care of themselves.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: And it's also why people are freaking out on service workers.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: It's like no one has access to or the systems
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: in which they would affect that change with their elected
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: representatives have failed, and the only person they have access
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: to is the person getting paid ten bucks an hour
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to answer the phone a customer service, and so they're
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: absolutely amazing their shit on that.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Person, and it's not okay to abuse that person. But
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I think we're living in a space where more and
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: more people are so frustrated, we're so frustrated, we're so angry,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: we're taking things out on other people. There is a
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: lot of political violence, and I mean, and again, no
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: matter how you feel about the president, that any president
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: of the United States, it's not okay to try and
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: kill somebody, right, And the fact that it's happened to
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: this president, it's happened three times, right, whether he correct
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: is it is, it is concerning. And I was reading
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: that apparently somebody had tried to kill Obama eleven times.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And I remember, I forget how old I was, maybe
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I was in the third grade when Ronald Reagan was shot,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Like this is I mean, you know, and it's and
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: it's happening more and more.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Right, I was going to say, I think it's just
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: going to it's.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely we're escalating, And I think we're just coming to
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: a place where, like I said, people are just so
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: fed up, especially if you are somebody who's trying so
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: hard to do the right thing and.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: You cannot really interesting expressions of joy in all this
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: quote Andre Leon Tally dracitude. All right, we need Andre
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Leon Talian these trying times and there's all these like.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: There's a documentary about him so good, it's so.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: The best. But this, in this dratitude, people are finding
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: like ways to find joy, right. And I saw in
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: response to the met Gala, which is sponsored by Jeff Bezos,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: it's costume artistry and it's brought to you by the Bezos.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Is it's and you know they're constantly shooting on their
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: workers and union busting and being billionaires that fund ice
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of Amazon workers have their own red
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: carpet met Gala. That it was so great, it was
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: really good, and it's like a lot of people boycott it,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: But a lot of people didn't boycott the Mecala, and
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of people that you would have hoped boycotted didn't.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think I think also we are
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: learning that people are very disappointing. Yeah, you know what
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's people that you even if you're not
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: somebody who's a huge fanboy, right, like, but there are
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: people that you're like, that's disappointing. It's disappointing that you
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: didn't say something about this particular thing. It's disappointed that
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: this is your stance that you're choosing to sort of
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: like shit on people like like like honestly like JK
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Rowling is super disappointing to me. But people like that,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: people that you feel like they have something that is good,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: like a talent. Yeah, and they've got name, recognition and power.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And they've got the platform for it and.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: The platform, and what they're choosing to do is either
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: shit on a population, yeah, say nothing. So I was
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: reading something about the metala and how what it used
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: to be versus what it is right now. Right you
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: used to be invited to come and now more and
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: more people are paying to come. So it's so it's
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: framed as a donation to the met ye to do
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: whatever exhibit that it is. And you know, and listen,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: fashion is art and art deserves.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: To be I mean, I think the met has its
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: own form of problematic.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Don't they all?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: They all do, Yes, they all do. But I think
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the met itself is like not great towards its workers.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: The Sacler name was all over it and it took
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: a lot to get them to remove it.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: What else did you need, folks?
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: They've got a lot of you know, looted antiquities, all
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: sorts of fun stuff like that. Every institution has its
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: own negative publicity. But I'm just disappointed and seeing the
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: people who have who went to the Mechcala knowing that
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: people who I think are so quick and easy to
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: repost an anti ice thing on their instat when it
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: suits them. I just like, I'm noticing the people who
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: pull in a social justice movement like Black Lives Matter
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: or Ice out of LA and then they push it
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: away the second it doesn't suit them anymore. Yeah, it's
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: gross and I don't like it. And I don't want
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: you wearing your Ice out of LA pen if you're
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: not going to put your money where your mouth is.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Like I think that happened with Black Lives Matter in
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty, where everyone was like, we're going to do
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: our blackout post and then they just like went back
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: to casting all white casts in their movies and TV shows, right.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I mean think about all the makeup companies who were
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: just like, oh yeah, we're now going to have like
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: people of colors, and they they had like the one
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: and then the one token black, the one token, and
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: then it was that was it.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: I'm more disappointed in people like that because you're actually
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: co opting a movement, using it to move forward your
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: own agenda, your own success, your own celebrity, and then
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: dumping at the second.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: It's like, in community, what bothers you more? Does it
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: bother you more to have someone do what you just said,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Like when something is hot, right, they decide, oh, yeah, whatever,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: black lives matter or whatever it is, and then like
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: do nothing later? Or do you resent the people who
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: never say anything? Ever?
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I think I can hate everyone, and I think that's
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: like a beautiful thing about my personality is that I
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: can hate you all each. I think there's something like
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: equally sick about both of you, right, Like one of
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: you is like performing. One person's performing and using a
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: movement to raise their own profile, and the other person
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: is like willfully blind. And I think those are two
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: different insidious diseases and they both should be euthanized.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I think that Michael, I think that The folks who
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: are performative really really pissed you off more the people
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: who are silent, because if I choose to believe that
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: people do try their best, Yeah, we never know what
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: the person who is silent is actually doing in the background.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: You know what this is. I think it's the trolley problem,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: you know, the like if you pull the lever, it
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: kills ten people, but if you don't pull the lever,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it only kills one person. Like, which one do you do?
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: It's like a famous philosophical debate. One is doing nothing
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: and one is doing something and also causing harm.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah it causes harm?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I think they're both monsters.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I think they both suck and I don't like them
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: and they should eat it and die. And like that's kind.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Of like and that's what he has to say about that.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like that's that's kind of like all you get
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: from me.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: No, I hear you, I hear you. It's again. I'm
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: tired of being disappointed at almost everyone at every level. Right,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I'm disappointed in like celebrities, I'm disappointed in newspeople, I'm
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: disappointed in my I'm just totally random thing that just
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: popped into my head and I'm really what.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: I have one last thing to sell on this. I'm
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: sorry before we segue. Yeah, I am so sick of
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: people who just like don't who just like are not
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: getting involved in We are not at a place in
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: society where you are not a part of it, even
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: with your silence, even with like your capitulation, Like you
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: your silence is causing harm. And it's so obvious now
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: and there's so much evidence that that's true that if
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: you're not doing anything that that really does drive me crazy.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: So like these like melli mouthed celebrities who don't support
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: anything and who are just like pretty and out there
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and making movies and TV and on Instagram, like that
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: pisses me off, Like use your platform for something. I
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: have become close with SJP and she uses her platform
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: and and in like this extraordinary way where she's so
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: involved politically and knows what's going on and is like
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: well read and well versed in everything, reposts everything, reads everything.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just incredible the way she's been able
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: to say, like she's like one of the most famous
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: women I think alive today and she's like yeah, hell yeah,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: like people like her are just like very inspiring to me,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: and her doing that hasn't diminished her celebrity, right, we
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: don't see like it's proof that doing that isn't going
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: to take away from your sort of public profile. So anyway,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: what was your sec que?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: This is a really silly thing. But so I was
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: listening to an interview that Tucker Carlson gave and I
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: listened to the whole thing.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: What do you think of his wig? What do you
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: think of that wig?
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: I think he needs to get better lace. I think
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I think you need to get better lace. I think
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: that the glue that you're using is old and dry,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: fried and it's sleaking.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: And he's kind of woke now in a weird way.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Snaky the tale.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, let me just say that. I mean, there are
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: so many things about him that are deeply problematic, but
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: I will tell you what I learned about him that
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I was floored to hear him say that. Did you
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: know that he almost never votes? I never?
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I never vote, So that's the truth.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I did not know that he said it himself. He
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I rarely vote. I voted for Trump
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and twenty sixteen. I think he said he voted for
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: him in twenty twenty and in twenty twenty three. Oh wow,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: but he seldom votes.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: No, It's like, seldom votes except for those two times for.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Drawn right, no right. And so really, that's what he's
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: saying is why he's so disappointed in him, because he
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: was like, I hardly. But it's like to me, you're like,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: you're one of the people who's responsible for what we've
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: got going on right now. And he didn't admit it.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: He doesn't admit it, and he's like, sorry, but like
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: you don't vote.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: That's not what bothers me. What bothers me is that,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: like you saw what happened for four years in twenty sixteen,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and then you were like.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, he thought it was funny. Please no, because what
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: he said, what he's what he's saying that he's upset
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: about now is like this war that nobody wants, you know,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: things like that. He like people who were who voted
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: for him were doing so because they know for financial reasons,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: and he's not helping those people. So he's saying that
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Trump is not doing what he set out to do. Listen,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: if not me, you could listen to it yourself.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: What a stupid fucking bitch.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: He is the most annoying interview.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: It gets hit by a bus. He is the dumbest,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: gay little bitch on earth with ugly ass hair. He's
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: got a suitcase full of wigs. Take your suitcase full
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: of wigs and move on to the next town, buddy.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I like, fuck, fuck that little stupid.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Bitch, Like you don't vote my guy? But like I'm so,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I was so. I was flabbergasted by this, and I
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: was like Andre and I were listening to it in
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: the car and I was like, hang on, did he
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: just say he doesn't vote?
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Driving off the road?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: I was livid.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I have seen some interviews where he is he really
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: like baits the crap out of the interview. Do you
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: see the interview with Ted Cruz? No, Oh my god,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: it's Tucker Carlston and Ted Cruise.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I've heard about it, though it did not go well.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: It is like, what is that? It's like Gorilla Godzilla
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: versus Godzilla versus I don't really know who I'm rooting
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: for here, but I'm just watching this too. Monsters at
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: each other looks so stupid. Yeah, I guess this is
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: like political dog fighting.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: It's like well, he was asking. He was like he
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: said to I think he said to Ted Cruz, how
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: many people are in.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Turkey, Iran, Iran and Iran. I think it was Iran.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: It doesn't even matter right.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Ted Cruise was like, we need to invade But he
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: was like.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Well, how many people? And he was just like, well,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: give me a guess. He's like, I don't know, I
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: don't know. He was a guest and he was just like,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: you know, eight and Tucker was just like one point
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: seven million?
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: How many people living around?
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: By the way, I don't know the population at all. No,
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: I don't know the population. You don't know the population
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: of the country. You see to Topple, what's the ethnic
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: mix of Ron? They are Persians and well predominantly Shia. Okay,
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: you don't know anything about Iran.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: And I remember this, and Ted Cruise was like, why
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: do I need to know the number? In Tucker's like,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: you want to invade them, you should at least know
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: a little bit about what you're invading, how many people
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: you are up against? And he was like, oh yeah,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: did Ted Cruz is was going to Iowa this week
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: to stump for to get to start to stump for
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: the mid terms, so it's good to know they're sending
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: their best and brightest for the GOP to Iowa. I
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: did say that that probably means there's like a juicy
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: this every time. Every time Ted Cruz leaves Texas, it's
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: because there's like a storm coming and they're all going
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: to lose power. So if you're in Texas, just get
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: ready you might lose power because he did leave the state. Yeah, anyway,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: let's take a break. Welcome back with Under Oath. Welcome
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: back to brief re says, this is under Oath. You
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: may remember a few episodes ago we talked a bit
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: about transracialism, me and Melissa, and we thought it would
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: be interesting if we reached out to some folks who
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: do research in this area, who are scholars, and so
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: we're going to do a deep dive with our guest,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: doctor Rebecca Tuvell. She's an associate professor in Chair of
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Philosophy at Rhodes College. Her research addresses topics like transracialism
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and cultural appropriation. Please welcome Rebecca Tuvell. Welcome. Thank you
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: so much for joining.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Us, well so much for being here. We really appreciate it.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Where are you located. Are you in where are you?
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Just so we're a where are you?
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: I'm in Memphis, Tennessee.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: All right. We thought it would be interesting to just
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: sort of talk to you. We reached out to a
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: few different experts, so this won't be the only conversation
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: we have on this.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Topic, hopefully not. Ye.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it has sort of came up because it
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: was coming across Melissa's algorithms.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, it came across my feed and I
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: sort of started digging a little bit into it. And
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I remember when Rachel Dozal sort of like first sort
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: of came on the scene, and I remember not realizing
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: that trends Rachelism was like a thing, right. I just
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: thought there was this woman who's cosplaying as a as
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: a as a black woman, and I just remember being
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: really sort of as a black woman myself being super
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: offended by the notion of this, Right, my race, my
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: ethnicity is not a costume. I don't really I don't
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: love the idea of somebody appropriating that. And also she
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: was the president of her local naac Key chapter and
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, that feels some thing to me.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: And also one of the things after she had really
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: come out and we were hearing learning more and more
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: about her. There was a recording of her having a
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: conversation either in a classroom or in front a group
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: of people, and she was talking about her hair transition,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and as a black woman who did have a hair transition,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: that was you know, I think you need to sort
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: of be a black person to understand this. That was
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: challenging and difficult for me for a multitude of reasons
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: to hear this woman talk about how difficult it was
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: for her, only to realize that it wasn't right. It
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: was something that she said to make herself seem authentic.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I found that really upsetting. But that aside, there have
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: been a few other people more recently that I have
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: come across my feed and I remember sort of sitting
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: with myself and thinking to myself, why is this bothering me? Yeah,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: because when I hear that somebody is transgendered, I accept
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: that as face value. So we should believe that people
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: are who they say that there are. It is not
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: for me to dictate who you are, who you are,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: et cetera. And I could not understand why for me
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: those two things feel very different. But you know, we
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: often talk about you know, Michael and I talk about
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: things that are facts versus feelings, Right, this was definitely
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: not based in any fact. This is just a feeling
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: that I have a feeling of being uncomfortable. So I
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: sort of fell into a rabbit hole about this and
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: so now and I brought it up to Michael, who
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: had never heard of it before.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, on air, I was like, I this is the
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: first I'm hearing about this. I mean, Rachel Doleas I
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: was really like the only ever entree into this. So
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: could you sort of tell us, like, what is transracialism?
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Where is this coming from? And you kind of like
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: define it for.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: Us glad too, And I think, you know, Dolezol for
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: sure as a figure is complicated, and I think it's
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: important to think about transracial theory or transracialism more broadly.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: And you know, we can talk about Dolesol in particular,
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: and she's certainly become kind of like the poster woman
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: for transracialism. But as you note it, Melissa, there are
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: many other people kind of started coming out of the woodworks.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: And the question is, for me, is transracial identity a
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: real identity that people hold? And then what can we
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: say sort of metaphysically about it, so metaphysically meaning like,
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: is it actually possible to.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Change your race? Those are interesting philosophical questions. So I define.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: Transracial identity as follows. Someone has a transracial identity if
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: they like sincerely identify as a member of a race
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: or eth no race with which they have no known
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: recent ancestry. You know, I define it, and I emphasize
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: eth no race in addition to race, because a lot
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: of the accounts kind of highlight the importance of kind
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: of ethnicity to racial identification. So if we think about
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: races as picking out like large populations of people linked
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: by geographic origins, common ancestry, and characteristic physical traits, eth
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: no races are like the cultural.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: Subsets within those races.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: So things that are you know, we where we think
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: about like not just appearance but culture, so language, religion, customs, traditions,
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: such that we can say that, you know, African Americans
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: and Afro Caribbeans are both racially black, but maybe eth
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: No racially distinct. And in looking at the accounts of
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: transracial folks, a lot of them will kind of ident
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: I at no racial first and foremost like and there's
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: was one study of fourteen self identified transracial people. That
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: kind of really highlights like the ethnic element to us fascinating.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I did a lot of like internet digging
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: when this came up. Melissa and I sort of talked
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: about it, and you know, when we were getting prepared
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: to talk to you, I think for me, the rubber
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: really hits the road. Well, first of all, I don't
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: like when I'm like a gay man, and it makes
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: me really uncomfortable when people start comparing community struggles to
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: other community struggles, Oh, the transgender identity, Like I get nervous,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: and it makes me uncomfortable when people are like, oh, well,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: being trans racial is like being transgender, because it's like
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: I don't like when we're like A is to B
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: as B is to see. Like that makes me nervous
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: because it's like it sort of is reductive, and I
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: think it takes away from each community's sort of journey
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: or what they're working through. Or I don't think we
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: should be comparing a Haitian person's journey in America to
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: a white gay man's journey in America and saying, oh, well,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: it's the same persecution struggle.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: And it also really bugs me, and I think the
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: rubber hits the road for me when it comes to
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: everyone I was seeing who came up when I was
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: doing this research was a white person trying to be
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: a person of color or saying I'm transracial, and it
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: was a white person transitioning to a person of color.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: And that shit bugged me because I was like, when
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: you do that, that is an assertion of a privilege
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: that Melissa can't turn around and do and pretend to
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: be Michael or say I am Michael, right. But a
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: lot of the people who identify as transracial were saying
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: I Am going to be a Haitian woman, and they
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: were white people like me, And that for me for
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: a loop, because I was like, that is you asserting
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: white privilege in America. That is you saying that you
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: are going to commondear someone else's culture for your for
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: whatever purpose, for your journey, and whether that is a
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: true belief, whether I mean so I want to remove this,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Oh well, that is just transgender. However it's race, because
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: that doesn't feel like an analog to me. It feels
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: like when a white person is like, I am going
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: to be a Haitian person. Now that feels very different
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: to me because it's so linked to community, it's so
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: linked to racial identity, and there's a history, there's a
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: history of slavery people of color and how the institutions
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: are sort of structured. So I think that really freaked
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: me out when that was happening.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: No, this is excellent. Yeah, I just yeah, I mostly
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: need to.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't want to be like I don't
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: want to be like Rebecca fixed this for me, Like,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I don't that's not like what I'm doing, tru Yeah.
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: No, No, I didn't think it that way. I mean,
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: I'm a philosopher. I just I love hard questions. I
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: love thinking about, you know, different arguments and uh and
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: comparing uh, you know, different kinds of identity claims. I
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: think I'll just make a note quickly about.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: The nature of analogies.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: Analogies they never compare two identical things, right. If they did,
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: then it wouldn't be an analogy, right, we would just
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: be talking about the same thing. So analogies, by their
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: very nature, compare two things that have relevant similarities but
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: also that have certain dissimilarities. Again, that's why you know
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: they are analogies and not just mere identity claims. I
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: do think that it's important to be cautious when we
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: draw analogies, and at the same time, I think it
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: has been really helpful to, like the history of political activism,
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: actually to employ certain analogies.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: So you mentioned, you mentioned being gay.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: You know, the Supreme Court case in defense of gay
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: marriage had actually borrowed some from the case in favor
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: of interracial marriage, right, so against anti missinsienation laws. Thank you, Yeah,
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: Loving be Virginia. And so there's at least there's an
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: example of how sometimes like seeing similarities maybe in different
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: kinds of struggles can be liberating, I can can be helpful,
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: let's say, toward certain liberatory struggles. I do think when
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: it comes to transgender identity and acceptance, especially like in
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: our current you know, political moment, it is risky, of
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: course to draw analogical comparisons, and I certainly understand.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: Like the hesitation that people will have around these kinds.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: Of analogical comparisons. You know, it's it's important too, I
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: think when you when you think about you know, publishing
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: like an article in a in a journal in philosophy
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: where you're exploring different kinds of arguments, versus you know,
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: taking a kind of like public stance and defense of like, hey,
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: here's here's this analogy, and do with it what you
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: will write them. I think, certainly I never anticipated my
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: article being read by you know, more than you know
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: a few people. But but of course it was in
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: the in the cultural zeitgeist at the time. Anyway, people
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: people weren't drawing those comparisons.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: And that article, you could you tell it give us
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: a little bit of background on that.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: So sorry, yeah, yeah, I published the article in defense
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: of transracialism in twenty seventeen in the feminist philosophy journal Hypatia,
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: and it would argue that similar considerations and rightful support
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: of transgender identity and acceptance also extend to transracial identity
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: and acceptance.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: And you know, I really I said that.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: You know, the paper was less about Dole's all in particular,
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: and more so using her and Caitlin Jenner's appearance on
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: Vanity Fair the same month, Rachel Dolezel came out as
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: a sort of opportunity to think through the philosophical questions
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: of you know, transracial identity.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: In your work, Have you had an opportunity to speak
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: to people who were transracial and what has been your
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that for as many people that
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: there are, there will be somebody who looks at it
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: one way or another. Right, No, I think no two
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: people will look at any one issue exactly the same way.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: But what what did you find and was it? I wonder? Sorry,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: I'm sort of working through this as I ask you.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: The question is is there a difference do you think
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: in the way that say a white person who is
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: a transracial person to become a black person, are they
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: very different than say a black person being transracial Asian?
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? And what do you
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: think that difference is and where do you think that
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: comes from? I don't know that you can really answer
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: that question, but it's just something that I've been thinking about.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: I think it's a great question, and I'm glad you
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: asked it because it reminds me that I wanted to
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: say something in response to One of the somewhat known
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: transracial identified people is named Ronnie Gladden. And Ronnie is
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: actually a black man who identifies as what they call transgracial,
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: both transgender and transracial. So like Ronnie identifies as like
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: a white woman. And I've had Ronnie, come speak to
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: my classes before via zoom and Ronnie, I sure would
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: be very happy to talk to y'all too, very very
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: friendly individual. It's interesting that Ronnie's story has kind of
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: flown under the radar, I think, because I think it
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: sort of challenges the idea that many people have about
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: transracial identified people, which is that it's just like white
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: people looking to identify as minority races for some sort
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: of like various purpose or stating some advantage or something.
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: So that is one thing I just wanted to name.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: I think that there are there, certainly are going to
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: be all kinds of different factors that play into why
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: it is that somebody who's born like white or black
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: or Asian or whoever, is going to identify as a
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: member of another race.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Right, I think that familial environment.
• 51:52
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: So doles All herself had this interesting story where she
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: like strongly disidentified with her white parents and then strongly
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: identified with her for black adoptive siblings that her parents
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: had adopted from Africa, and then she's had an interesting
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: kind of racial experience, let's let's say, growing up. It's
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: totally plausible to me too, that some people could be
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: identifying as members of another race for maybe reasons having
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: to do with like internalized oppression, you know. And I
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: think pulling apart the different reasons why we identify as
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: we do is a very messy, messy game, and honestly,
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: I think it applies.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: To transgender identity too.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, we're not you know, I think there are
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: all different kinds of ways of being trans.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: Some people argue that like trans is a neuro biological
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: condition for some trans people.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: Maybe it is.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: And there's other trans people who identify for reasons that
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: we don't. We don't know, and it's for all you know,
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: it could be that some of those reasons have to
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: do with like a internalized misogyny, that's what some people claim.
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not here to kind of adjudicate, like
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: or figure out who identifies, you know, as they do
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: and why. But I think it's just worth stipulating that,
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: like identity is really complicated, and I think you can
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: acknowledge that there might be all kinds of different factors
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: that go in, especially when you're dealing with like members
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: of a historically marginalized group.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: So I would just like urge caution.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: I guess in general, when it comes to like an
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: identity that you hold and that you flame like.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: I think if you've sort of paid attention to history
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: and stuff, there have always been people who have passed right.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And these were usually for people who don't know. These
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: were usually African American people who their phenotype was such
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: that they appeared as white, and they decided to live
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: their lives or maybe travel as white people as a
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: way of protecting themselves, as a way of protecting themselves,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: as a way of achieving a better life, being able
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: to earn more money and no longer live with the
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: oppression that have you know, sort of dogged African American people,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: especially in this country. I feel like those people. Again,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: these are feelings. These are Melissa's feelings, not facts that
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: I look at those people and I there's a part
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: of me that has tremendous amount of empathy. I understand, right,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: you are trying to protect yourself. You're trying to save yourself.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: That is not you know that, That is not the
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: feeling that I get when I am looking at a
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: transracial person. Now, I have never spoken to a transracial
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: person to get to try and understand. You know, please
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: explain to me why this is what you're doing. But
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you I would I would never
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: ask a transgendered person why they were doing this, right,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah? But I think for me, it's like transgender people
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: and people of color are in this country fighting to survive. Yes,
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Like the highest rates of murder are trans women of color.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: So this notion, I think it really raises my hackles
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: and gets me nervous when we talk about this, because
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: it's like, these are two groups of communities that are
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: fighting for their lives in America right now. And so
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: it feels like when we talk about transracialism, it feels
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: like and I'm not saying you're doing this, Rebecca on
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: this call, it feels like to do that is it
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: is to be like a little bit flippant with identity,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: to say like, oh, these two are the same, or
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: that like transracialism is it just it makes me uncomfortable
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: because I'm like, these these communities are already up against
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: so much, and this feels like while some of it may,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: some transracialism may be valid, it feels like there is
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: this channel running through it of an opportunity for a
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: malfeezer to come in and be like, oh, I'm a
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: white person who wants to kind of play around because
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: of racial identity, and like that, and where we still
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: have sorority parties where you know, sorority girls are wearing
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: sombreros and mustaches, and just like being very callous and
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: flippant with racial identity, like that is a huge part
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: of American culture, not just like we still have people
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: dressing as white girls dressing as Mulan for Halloween. We
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: still have people who are being very appropriative of culture.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: And I think that it's not my job to like
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: adjudicate whether someone's valid or invalid with their identity. But
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: it's making me uncomfortable because I'm like, and that's the.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Thing about this entire conversation is that, you know, for me, initially,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: forget Rachel does off because that was a different feeling
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: for me. But when this came through on my algorithm,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: I really had to sit with myself and ask myself,
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: why is this bothering you? Why is making you uncomfortable?
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: You know, Caitlin Jenner, you know, she bothers me personally,
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: but like, but but but her existence does not bother.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Me because her existence as a woman is not taking
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: away from biologically women who were born CIS women, Right,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: the existence of trans people isn't at the expense of
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: CIS women.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: So I think a lot of people argue that, I
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: think incorrectly, as you noted, Michael, that trans women are
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: like posing a threat to CIS women's identity in some way, right,
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: And I would argue that that's a mistake, and analogously
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: would say the same thing is true for transracial individuals.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: I mean, so the thought that, for instance, like having
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: the category of trans available is going to make it
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: such that like all of these women are going to
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: like choose to transition to become men because it's terrible
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: being a woman, or something like, we would say that's
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: that's that's a completely unfounded kind of concern. I would
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: argue the same thing when it comes to transracial identity.
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, for people who actually hold a transracial identity
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: and who like try to align their public racial perception
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: with their internal racial identity. This is like not mirror
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: going on Halloween for putting on cost sort of like
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: you know, integrated into their daily life. They're like insisting
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: on this identity over time, it's like often costly for them,
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: as well, because like coming out as transracial, you think,
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: How that's received.
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: So I think I would just challenge the idea that
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: transracial identity itself poses a threat to like the welfare
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: of transgender people are people of color. Now, I think
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: what does pose a threat is when people like weaponize
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: transracial identity against right people of color transgender individuals. I'll
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: just one other thing on this, A lot of the
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: people in the trans racial like world, so if you
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: kind of are in these online spaces so called r
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: cta race change to another is often how you can
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: like find some of the transracor trace communities.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: They are often also people who.
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: Identify as like gender minorities too, So there's actually quite
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: a bit of overlap in between among like the people
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: who identify this way and like you know, trans people
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: or other kind of minorities. And that's actually not unique
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: to transracial identity. There's like kind of more overlap than
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: you'd expect among some of these non normative identities. And
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: so you could take that for whatever it's worth, but
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: I would say that maybe there's more of like an
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: opportunity for allyship rather than than.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: I think, you know this is I'm going to go
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: back to the crates on this and both sorry, both
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: of you are probably way too young to know this movie.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: When I was coming up, there was a movie called
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: I think it was called soul Man and and it
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: starred see Tommy Howell, who was a white person, and
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: he I forget what happened, but he ended up needing
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: money to go to college. He had done something and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: his parents wouldn't pay and what the only scholarship that
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: was available was a scholarship that was available to African
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: American students. So I can't remember what he did, like
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: super Tan or whatever it is, and he took the
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: space of someone, And I mean, and the movie is
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: supposed to be kind of funny, but then of course
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: they're sort of like these sort of cheesy moments where
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden he's pulled over by a police
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: officer when he's not doing anything and the light goes
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: off for him, and now he understands I think, you know,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: I think that people are worried about things like that, Yeah, right,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: you know, like Rachel Dosal taking the space as the
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: president of her local NAACP chapter. And I know that
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: there are people who are also worried about transuh women
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: athletes right taking the space of cisgendered women in athletics.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: And maybe this sits with me because I am a
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: black woman and I will always be a black woman,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: and there isn't anything that I could do, oh frankly
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: would want to do about it, right, Perhaps that is
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: why this is so concerning to me. I have a
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: trans person in my life who I had read what
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: they had said to us, and and they are also
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: feeling uncomfortable with this because they're there. Their points was
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: that they are simply trying to exist in this world,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: not trying to take the space of a cisgendered person.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: I think all of.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: That's right, and I think, you know that transracial in
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: individuals might say, you know, precisely the same thing that like, try.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: Trying to live as they are.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: They're not trying to, you know, take advantage of things
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: that aren't intended for them. This is another thing that
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: comes up sometimes, you know, people worry understandably about there
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: being a kind of inability to differentiate between you know,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: a person who maybe as deserving of a kind of
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: reparation or affirmative action benefit or something like that on
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: account of having been descended from enslaved black people in America.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: You know, we do recognize all sorts of ways that
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: people who have relevant histories might be eligible for different
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: kinds of protections or benefits on the basis of those histories.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: So you could.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: Easily say, well, this is not intended for transracial black people,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: because the thing we're trying to do here is offer
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: reparations for those who were descended from people, you know,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: who are enslaved in this country. And so now maybe
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: if the claim was like, well, we're looking to, you know,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: try to lift up minorities for the sake of like diversity,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: then you might have a claim to including a transracial
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: person for the sake of like advancing diversity. So it
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: really kind of just depends on the particular argument. And
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: this applies in the case of gender too, Right, So
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: in some medical context it will be relevant that you know,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: you weren't born like a natal female, and most contexts
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: it won't be relevant.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: But if it's like, are you going to be eligible
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: for you know, certain kinds of pregnancy related healthcare something
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: that might be covered by insurance, that's not going to apply,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: right if you don't have the capacity to get pregnant.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: Right, So, so in other words, it's like you could
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: you sort of have your cake and eat it too.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: In a way, you can kind of grant the identity
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: as legitimate, But saying it doesn't mean that in all
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: contexts we collapse everything and we just don't recognize any
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: kinds of differences. And I think like Jewish conversion is
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: a good example of this too, Right, So, like some Jews,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: like myself included, you know, are descended from like Holocaust survivors,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: and that might make some people eligible for inclusion in
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: certain certain things, you know, I don't know, maybe if
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: there's like, hey, we were doing a study on you know,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: we're doing some sort of a genetic study on people
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: who were from Holocaust descending grandparents, and we want you.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean that, like we can't acknowledge and
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: accept Jewish converts even though you know, they're not going to.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: Be eligible for that kind of study, let's say, or
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: something like that.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: Right, So it's just a matter of like accepting the identities,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: but also accepting the ways that we have different paths
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: into identities, right, some via birth. And this applies to
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: you know, like think about adoptive parents think about naturalized citizens,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: like the ways that we come.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: To occupy categories.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: That wasn't merely through birth, but was through actually like
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: going through a process.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: Does this topic come up in your classes?
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: I do teach philosophy of race and racism, and I
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: recently just I recently started talking about it, but because
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: students requested it in the past, I really didn't.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: They were like, we wanted to translations.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you just sort of
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: like what what the what your feedback has been, what
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: the reaction has been, because this is I think this
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: is one of these things that we're going to It
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: will come up again, and we're going to have to
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: sort of think about this right, think about why we're
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: feeling what we're feeling.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: I would say, you know, of course, any semester that
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: I might be when I've spoken like students about it.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think I have students to take my.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: Classes sort of self select for philosophy, being philosophically minded,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: and so they're often I think comfortable with uncomfortable questions
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: and sort of you know, thought experiments involving different kinds
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: of identities and whatnot. But certainly I have had African
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: American students who have a kind of like unease around
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: it or who had like very strong feelings about the
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: whole doals all controversy when that came out, But I
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: will say that in all my conversations in general, undergraduate
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: students seem to be more open minded to transracialism, I
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: would say than a lot of other folks I speak to. Now,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: that's purely anecdotal, but I guess I feel like there
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: might be a generational difference too. Also, because online we
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: see so many people occupying identities that are different from
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: their physical identities, right, So, like I think the virtual
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: era also maybe makes people more open to different kinds of.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: It's been really interesting and I think this is a
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: conversation that we're going to keep on having.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. It was nice
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: meeting you.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Rebecca, Thank you.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: Let's get into tails from the DMS. These are all
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: the freakydieki, wicked and wild things you send us into
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: my DMS. Photos excluded.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: Do you get pictures? Oh?
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: I get pictures? Really? Yeah, I'll show you later.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: I want to see yeah, yeah, I want to see
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: what do you say, Melissa, Oh, what's going on? Friends?
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: What do I always say? While Michael is a lawyer,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: he's not your lawyer, so you should get your own.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Okay. This is.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: From are we finally going to do it? We're going
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: to do it?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: Okay. I hyped this letter last week so hard that
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: I got a lot of messages telling me that I
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: need to read it. The reason why I hyped it
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: is because it is actually wild, and I need to
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: say before we get into this, this is so alleged.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: This is so very much. This is very alleged.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, it is alleged, but can we also just have
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: a moment when this first came up, I read it
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: and I said, huh.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think we can read this.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know if we should do this.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: I said, oh, yes we should.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: Michael was just like, yeah's so this is very alleged information.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: This is third hand information. This is an email right
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: after our gay Panic episode which was months ago, where
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: we talked about the case where there was a Jenny
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: Jones show and.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: That back in the nineties and she had a show
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: where it was you have a secret crush and this
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: particular show, it was a gay man who had a
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: crush on a straight man, and that man he went
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: back to this man's house and he murdered this man.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: After which when he was arrested and was on trial,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: he then invoked this gay panic defense.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: And said he was the gayness freaked me out so
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: much that I it was so gay that I murdered him.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Correct And because it was so gay and freaked me out,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: I should get a reduced sentence because I was just
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: freaking out.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: It was a seat of passion crush.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: And so we talked a lot about that, and this
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: guy did go away from prison. He eventually got, you know,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: convicted of murder. It was like very clear he murdered
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: this guy who went on Jenny Jones show and was like,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: I have a big crush on you. So someone wrote
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: in and said, this is like so redacted. It is
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: an Epstein file at this rate, Like there's just like
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: one word that I can really read. But this is
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: a person who was in the State of Michigan penitentiary
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: allegedly with the murderer of that guy from the Jenny
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Jones Show. And this person says, as a gay man
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: of a certain age, I was in the same facility
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: as mister Schmidt's. To be clear, we weren't really friends,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: but would exchange hello nods when passing each other as
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: we did attend some of the same programs. We weren't
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: exactly strangers either. I was not at all that surprised
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: when John made a pass at me in the library
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: bathroom one day. This is turning into some like fan
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: fiction heated rivalry. Yeah, however, this is this is the
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: ai fruit and vegetables. However, I was surprised to learn
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: allegedly that mister Schmids was a great bottom. I'm not
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: a huge fan of outing people in the public forum,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: so I should also mention that most people in our
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: prison were well aware of his years of quote public service. Anyhow,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: love you both, Tibits, and happy to report I've been
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: crime free for about five years and loving life now.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: Love big gay job.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Josh. This made my day to
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: receive this email. Allegedly, it sounds like you're a service
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: top for the gay Panic defense power bottom community in
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: the Michigan Thank you for your service topping these bottoms.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: And again, I don't know how many times we could
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: say that all of this is we don't know if
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: it's real.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: It could be someone who's just fucking was completely It
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: read pretty honest to me, and I changed some words around.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: I move things around to protect the innocent, and also
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: because I know you thirsty bottoms are out there are
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: just looking for any top. So I did change the
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: do yes, and I changed Josh's Yeah. I changed it all.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: But I was like, oh, should we not read this
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: because we're going to out someone. But then it was like,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: he fucking murdered that guy. I'm sorry, you're Maybe he
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: kind of goes out there. I know the defense attorney,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: and we shouldn't say that. But you know what, I
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: was comfortable enough reading it because I was like, this
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: is insane and juicy.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: That's why I didn't like, don't this feels like I
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: CJ loved itj ate it up.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: He was sipping t eating today that in the gator.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He sent it right over to me, he said, Michael,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: look at this one. Yes, all right, we got another email.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: Do you want to read it?
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Hello, Michael and Melissa. I've been a business owner for
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: almost five years now, and due to some unfortunate situations
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: that have occurred with a previous business partner. I've come
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: to believe the civil legal system has no tea in
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: trying to pursue an end with said business partner. That
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: has been a lot of money spent just trying to
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: get this person to respond to us. Eventually, my lawyer
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: said they did not believe it was worth putting any
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: more energy into. When discussing this matter with the friends,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: she brought up her divorce and how difficult her ex
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: was making things even though the agreements had been reached
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: up to this side. The message from society is that
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: these legal documents protect us. But what are people really
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: supposed to do when dealing with a bad faith actor
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: who simply ignores these legal protections and even worse, they
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: get away with it because there are so few ways
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: to enforce legal agreements. That's actually a really good question. Yeah,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: a person could easily spend a fortune trying to enforce
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: these things because it appears to be the only way
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: to enforce civil manners. What are people supposed to do
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: when trapped in this cycle? Girl?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: Eat them up? I love it. Thank you so much
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: for sending this in best regards A for to not
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: to use my full name. Okay of course this is
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: I don't think we said any name it. Also, this
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: is totally anonymous. I will say that. I mean I'm
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: a defense attorney in criminal court and immigration court. I'm
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: not in civil court at all, and that is by choice.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: But I do think that civil litigators, in civil lawsuits,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: where we have plaintiffs trying to seek some sort of
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: you know, retribution, trying to get some damages, it is
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: an economic question and it really sucks like there isn't
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: I don't have an answer where I'm like, this is
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: what you should do, especially because like the fact pattern
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: is pretty vague. It just says I'm trying to get
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: my out of a business partner. That is kind of
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: like anytime someone gets fired from a job and they
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: seek an immigrant employment attorney. It's going to come down
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: to the economics of the case. Is the hours a
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: lawyer is going to put in on the case going
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: to equal enough of a settlement to recoup that labor
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: that they put into the case. And there's right and
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: wrong in there. Right, like, these are businesses. We unfortunately
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: all exist in a capitalistic healthscape. But I do think
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: that something that stuck out to me was your lawyer
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: saying they didn't believe it was worth putting time and
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: energy into. I unfortunately have to have that conversation with
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: people more often than not, is this is not worth
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: your emotional energy and it's really not worth my time.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: The economics of this case are just not going to
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: work out. This is the best thing to do for you.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people come to me, even with like an immigration case,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: where I'm like, the amount of money you're going to
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: spend on this, fighting this, working on this, and the
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: likelihood of a positive outcome is so low you seriously
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: need to be thinking about whether or not you can
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: pay rent and feed your kids with this money versus
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: hiring me to work on it. I always have to
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: have those like really got honest conversations.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: And we need these are really good questions. Is it
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: in the end? I think maybe? Again, I'm not a
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: lawyer either, but like asking yourself, is it worth the
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: time and money just to make a point? Right? I Mean,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: I understand when you feel like you've been wronged by somebody,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: you want to like get them for it, right, But like,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: in the end, what will you really get other than satisfaction?
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Is bankrupting yourself worth the satisfaction of being right.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, I read this thing on I want to say,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: an article, but I know it was an Instagram. The
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: best revenge is losing access to you. That is like
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: the best revenge rather than yeah, mailing them a lemon
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: every day. So I just think, like, I mean, it's
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: a conversation to have with yourself. Again, there's not a
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: lot of information about your specific cases of like a
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: legal problem to solve here, but I do think it
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: comes down to this, like we use lawsuits for emotional
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: reasons sometimes many times these are people with emotions that
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: we are managing when we're dealing with these suits. And
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: and there's that's very that's a very real reality. There's
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: like a social work component to all of this work.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: So I think that is a real honest conversation to
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: have with yourself about whether or not this is right
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: and whether or not this is a good use of
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: your money, time and emotional labor. It might be yeah,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: and like I'm not saying it's not right, but it
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: also might not.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: Like how long you've been doing this, you know, keep
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: digging this hole.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: Right, right, maybe it's better to take that money and
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: do something that's really going to help you heal, yeah,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: versus making.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: A like start a different business, like why you know,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: ask yourself why you're doing this? I mean, I get it.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes people they just want to win so bad. Yeah,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: and they just keep doing something that's valid. No, no,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: it's and I'm not saying that that's a good thing
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: or a bad thing. You need to decide that is
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: a good thing or a backside for you.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: That's a good conversation having yourself it is. That's rough,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: or just mail them a lemon. Thank you so much
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: for joining us. I'll see you next week in Core
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: because I'm suing your ass. This has been an exactly
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: right production recorded at iHeart Studios, hosted by Me Michael Foot.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: And Me Melissa malbranch. Our producer is CJ. Ferroni.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: This episode was edited by Nicholas Galucci.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: is Patria Cottner.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Tom Bride Vocal with
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: artwork from Charlotte Delarue and Manessa Lilac, with photography by
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: Brad Obono.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kill, Gareth Georgia Hart,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Stark and Danielle Kramer.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: Department or on TikTok at Michael foot.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: Got legal questions, reach out at brief Recess at exactlyrightmedia
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: dot com. Listen to brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and of
• 1:18:21
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• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: on YouTube