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The Cobra with Dave Jordan · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, everybody.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Tim Hannon.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Steve Wirt.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: This week we're joined by Dave Jordan.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: He's the co-author of a book called Cobra: A Life of Baseball and Brotherhood about the life of late Pirates Hall of Famer Dave Parker.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's a really, really fascinating book.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Highly, highly recommend it.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: So many great stories.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: And when we talk to Dave, he gets into some of those stories and he gets into a lot of really interesting insights on the process of him writing this book with Dave Parker.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we hope you enjoy this interview.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: The book itself is available on Amazon.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's available at Barnes ⁇ Noble and other bookstores.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: We'll also have links in the show description for where you can get it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, like we said, please go out and get that book.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: You will not be disappointed.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: But for now, enjoy this interview with Dave Jordan.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Tim, Steve, this is an absolute pleasure.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for inviting me on.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the book, for those who haven't read it, is Dave Dave Parker telling his story in the first person.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: But Dave Jordan, you're the co-author.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing I wanted to ask you is uh number one, how did you and him get connected?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And number two, what was the process for writing this thing?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Was it was it like him doing the talking, you doing in the writing?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Was it more collaborative writing?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can you just kind of walk us through that?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I had been on my way home uh from a presentation I was giving with uh the baseball player John DiAquisto.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: We'd written a book called Fastball John, and we were invited up to Cooperstown to make a presentation.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: On the way home, I was uh contacted by a mutual friend who told me that Parker had been trying to write an autobiography for the better part of a decade and a half.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And for whatever reason, this writer fell out, that writer fell out, the deal wasn't good enough, whatever it was.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And he was working with somebody who's basically charging him like$2,000 a month to write his story and compose his book with him.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I called up Parker and I just said, you know, I could get this done.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it the similarities, you know, the background between him and and Dia Quisto was pretty startling.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: They were both born in 1951, they were both part of the 1970 uh uh Major League amateur draft, they both debuted in 1973.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So all the foundational research was there.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I told this to Parker, and then Parker basically said, Well, I kind of have an arrangement with somebody right now, this, that, and the other thing.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, Godspeed, you know, you have my number, you know where I am, and whatever happens, happens.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: That was in August of 2017.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then what happened was funny.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: In November of 2017, Ron Gidry signed a deal for his third autobiography.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, we know Ron Gidry, Louisiana Lightning, near Hall of Famer, great Yankee, but he doesn't have the kind of story like Dave Parker does.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same journey whatsoever.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up calling up Parker and I said, you know, Gidry's on his third book now.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: He just got a deal for his third book.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Parker's like, man, he's he's a milk drinker.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So he had, you know, he was just like, I know, I know.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have a much crazier story.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I know I do.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And like, well, what's going on with your book?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Oh, fell fell by the wayside.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'm gonna send you a copy of Fastball John.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Fastball John's 520 pages, and it's all about the peak of baseball in the 70s and 80s.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: You take a look at that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: You tell me if you want me, because I can get yours done if you want to get it done.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna charge you$2,000 a month to do it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he read it, and then a week, week, two weeks later, he called me up and he said, Who do you like this weekend?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you know anything about Parker, he loves football more than anything in the world.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, he's a big Bengals fan, you know, Anthony Munoz, he counts among his best friends and Kenny Anderson, all those guys in town because he's Parker's a Cincinnati guy.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just talked football from early December 2017 until after the Super Bowl, uh, February of 2018.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we when we were done talking about football, that's all we talked about.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Parker basically said, All right, we'll do one article and we'll see how it goes.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to write about?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I want to write about the politics of right field in 1973, uh, Pittsburgh Pirates Spring Training.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I know all about that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we did that article, and the Sporting News published it, and Parker received accolades from friends, family, former players, and they said, All right, let's do the book.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how it began.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And in in terms of our um our collaborative process, it was every Sunday we would talk for 45, 50 minutes, and for about a year we would have this like set date.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would come out once a quarter and we would spend three days just talking.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we would go for six hours and get some lunch, go for another like two or three hours and then go get dinner.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we just we just really, really bonded well.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he also had the Pirates basically open up the 1979 Rolodex.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up speaking to over 75 players.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: The Reds were great.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: They they introduced me to guys like Barry Larkin, Eric Davis, and um, and a number of uh Cal Daniels, I was friends with previously.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And basically it was 75 players, coaches, managers, his high school coaches.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I became very good friends with his high school guidance counselor, who at 86 is still with us.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, so it was a really deep Parker really, really um flattered me once, and he just said, You and me, we a super group.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really, it was really special to hear that.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to ask, was it a collaborative process?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's that's pretty cool.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you mentioned the guidance counselor, Mrs.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Ums Google, yeah.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Miss Google, yeah.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I I he talks a lot about her in the book, and I think there's even some pictures of her, and that was that was neat.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's cool that you got to talk to her too.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and when when he spent all those hours with you telling his story, um I I thought one of the most impressive things about the book was just the level of detail for stuff that happened like 50 plus years ago.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: I he talks, for example, about what song was on the radio the first time he met Doc Ellis at at a dive bar in Bradenton.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Did did he Yeah, I know you talked to other people too, but did he have like journals or things like that that helped him remember details, or was he just one of those people that had a steel trap mind?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: He he for what he was going through, and and he had been diagnosed with Parkinson's in 2012, he um he still had these crazy memories.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um we talked a lot about the music.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you know, a lot of the titles of the chapters are based on songs that he listened to at the time and that were significant at the time.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there was a lot of these, these, and and we played a lot of songs, and and we would play something like My Mistake by Marvin Gaye and and and Diana Ross, and he'd be like, Oh yeah, that was I remember being in the car and talking to this woman, whatever, at the time, and and that was a very prominent song.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we focused on songs that were that became time capsules that were number one for two or three weeks and then never played again.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of songs like that out there, like that that Marvin Gaye song that was very popular that you people haven't heard in 30, 40 years.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you hear it now, and it just opens the these these time traps for for you.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and we found that to be an effective device um for composing the book.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hey uh David, it's Steve.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I just a question.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um you talked about his um love for football and unfortunately the Cincinnati Bengals for him, but I remember reading in the book, he actually played high school and gotten hurt in one of his knee injuries.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: If he doesn't get that knee injury in high school, do you think he uh go does go play for Ohio State instead of uh instead of uh maybe following the uh baseballer out there?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that they turn him into a tight end, absolutely.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: He loved nothing more than football.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, we wanted to convey that love of football in the early chapters, and that's why there's so much in in about the his high school days, about how much he loved football, and he just loved talking about his high school days.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he he went full Al Bundy for uh a number of sessions we sat down, and he just talked about you know scoring the touchdowns and and the friends that he played with and and whatnot.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, his his time in high school really formed uh a lot of the basis of who he was.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: He um yeah, his story is full of ups and downs, uh the the the high school injury and and what happened there.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: He talks about how he couldn't make the big league club those first few years.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think at one point he even says yeah, he went home to Cincinnati to basically quit baseball altogether.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I thought all of that to me made makes him very relatable for being a star athlete.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh were those all those different challenges that he had, would was that difficult for him to open up about all that?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um he is such a level-headed guy, and and when we first sat down about the book, I I I told him, I was like, look, you know, you you you did a lot, man.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and and people know you did a lot, and both good and and and bad.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's just if you want this thing to resonate the way I know you want it to resonate, you're gonna he's just and he just looked at me, opened his arms, and was like, I'm right here.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So he and also the fact is that he was in such a good place.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, you know, Parkinson's notwithstanding, in terms of family and and the love and and his his life, that he was easy to like things were hard.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably the hardest about about high school because he loved football so much, but uh, other than that, um, he was pretty easygoing about the whole thing, and he was ready to tell an honest story.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: He got very, very honest in the book, and there's there's dozens of examples of that.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: One that's stuck out to me was the story about what happened with his girlfriend, I think her name was Pamela, literally in the middle of the 1979 postseason.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is when the Pirates are making their run for a championship.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I I won't spoil that for folks who haven't read the book, but needless to say, it's some real heavy stuff.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe he says in the book he's never told that story until now.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, he he talked a little bit about in in in very vague terms on on different uh not so much podcasts, but documentaries and whatnot about the vandalism to his house and this and that.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was a little tense and it was a little tough.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I also had the um the other side of that story was his relationship with the agent Tom Rich, who was very prominent in his life in the late 70s and and and early to mid-80s for a stretch of about 10 years.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I sat with Tom Rich for God for a week in in his uh his home in uh Sarasota.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I became very close with Tom.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I very nearly ended up writing a book with Tom.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: So when when you see, when you read Cobra, it's really also informed by the uh the experiences of Parker's agent, and you get a second side of of things that happen there.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I think one of the things we we talked about, you know, stories, and I it's one of the things we love on this podcast is digging up stories that people have probably never heard before.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and so this book has a plethora of just great stories like that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, the like we said, some some are deep and heavy, but then there's just some like the the the conveys a story where he went out to eat with Emory wearing his full pirates uniform.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's some really funny stories.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: How how did you guys determine what kind of stories made it into the book and what did not?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And is there a is there a director's cut with the leftover story somewhere?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh well, the problem was that the book ended up being about 229,000 words that we submitted to the publisher.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the publisher was who gave us kind of the run of the place, just said, guys, we can't do this.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is crazy.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it ultimately became like it was 178,000 word book, but a lot of things got cut out of that.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there was some other relationship stuff we had to cut.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: We had to cut uh the 88, 89, and 90, 91 seasons down substantially.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um basically, I did a I'm on the um the Facebook, a baseball books uh Facebook uh group, and it's like 13,000 people.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: We ran an informal poll in there saying, what do you guys want to read and a Dave Parker book?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And overwhelmingly it was pirates, reds, drug trials.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where we focused everything.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that was that was the idea.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: We tried to fit in every great story.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I spent maybe 10 hours on the phone with Larry Demery uh a couple years before he passed.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of stuff was really informed, not just from Parker's perspective, but or at least it was fortified by the perspectives of of his teammates and friends.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the the the time with the pirates I can see being popular, especially in in Pittsburgh.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I I thought what was really kind of a through line in the book was how much the pirates were truly a family.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like they had that theme of family, but that really came across in the book, and they took so much pride in being pirates.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was evident the way he talks so much about his relationship with his teammates.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think it comes out when he talks about how much winning matter to everyone.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's even a story about there was there was an old guy at batting practice in spring training one day who everybody wanted to talk to, and the old guy ended up being pie trainer.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like it really meant something special to be a pirate back then, didn't it?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think a lot of that was fostered by the organization.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um they they back in like 68-69, they began working out at Pirate City in Bradenton, uh, which is you know, one, you know, at that time was one part state-of-the-art uh facility, and one part three-star Howard Johnson's.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they all basically stayed together with the exception of married players, everybody else dormed together, they ate together, they hung out together, they ran around together.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: It truly, truly was a family organization.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's even that's way before 1979.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then he also he also talks about, and he really accentuates this point.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think he even says, like, if he has one takeaway, it's this it's how much Danny Murtaugh and Joe Brown supported the black players.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that that was something?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: I guess why do you think that's something he really wanted to accentuate?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was it was important at at a time with with things that were going on and and George Floyd and and and whatnot.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he wanted to talk about the positive aspect of of the of the black experience, and um and it's really he's he's had an absolutely positive life with all of his friends, and and he wanted to talk about the brotherhood, he wanted to talk about the friendship and love between these men, and that was extremely important to him.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's in the title of the book.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it was it was a very significant uh journey that he uh went under.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he seemed to have a you know what what did he think of Chuck Tanner?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Just uh you know, just describe his relationship with Chuck Tanner.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Chuck Tanner.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Chuck Tanner adored Parker, he absolutely adored him.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're actually um in the midst of of I'm I'm in the midst of finishing off a book that I was working on with Parker, a second book, that really, really underlines uh Tanner's affection for Parker that I'm not gonna really get into here, but um he absolutely loved Parker.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: He he he fought for him.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when Parker tried to bowl over John Stearns, everybody was kind of all the the uh the media took types are saying, did Parker do something wrong?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And Tanner, as you'll see in the reading the book, basically said Dave Parker plays every game like it's the seventh game of the series, and he runs out every ground ball, and I support him a hundred percent.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think I think Tanner even um I I I'm trying to remember who the player was.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh might have been Madlock, but um Tanner even wanted Parker's opinion before they went out and got that player.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because the thing was Parker knew Madlock going back to 1971, where they had an incident as minor league opponents, and then they they were together on a uh same team in the Dominican Republic in Winter Bowl in 73.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Madlock got into a situation and Parker kind of helped get him out.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So they were tight um players throughout the league for many years.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, and and there was a time in 79 where Madlock was in San Francisco, he was unhappy, and then Tanner called in Parker and and and Starjill and basically said, So we're thinking about Madlock.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: We heard he he he beat the stuffins out of Bo McLaughlin on the on the Braves last night.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's the deal with him?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Parker's like, You're going to get mad dog?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Go get him, go get him, go get him.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: That was just you're like, you sure like just go get him.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Don't don't even think twice.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's to to be at that level on a team, and especially on a championship team, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like to be that that level of leadership and respected, where the the the manager and and and the the front office literally has reservations about going out and getting a player, but they're like, okay, but let's ask Dave Parker.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, and and it's it's funny because he walks you through that whole process of you know, obviously it didn't start out that way.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, he started out as this you know, by his own admission, kind of arrogant rookie that thought he was, you know, deserved to make the team the first year, and but then he had Clemente and Stardew and the guys that were the leaders then, and again, even like Pie Trainer, people like that, um you know, kind of guiding him through.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then when it came you know later in his career, he was able to to assume that mantle, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no doubt.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I really loved though the crossover that that Pie Trainer was around long enough to overlap with Parker.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that was when I heard that story, that was just you know fantastic.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there were so many people, even uh Bob Veal, who was the the great uh black left-handed pitcher uh for the Pirates in the 60s and very early 70s, he was around long enough to influence Parker and to guide him.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, they would go out one night and they'd be like, Hey, uh Chutney, you gonna come out with us?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and and Veal would say things like, I'm not I'm not wasting my dollars on on thoughtless nights and things like that, um, you know, or or forgetful evenings and things like things of that nature.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So he had so many different role models um in the black community on the team, and in addition to Joe Brown and um and Danny Merton and ultimately Chuck Tanner.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um that was that was kind of how that went.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he he talks a lot in the book about Doc Ellis.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I thought that was that was interesting.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Doc Ellis was a much bigger presence.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I think all of us in Pittsburgh know that Doc Ellis was certainly uh a unique personality and all that kind of stuff, and everybody talks about the no-hitter when he was high and all that, all that kind of stuff.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: But but boy, he really goes into detail about uh real really making you understand what what a larger-than-life presence Doc was in the clubhouse.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Was his relationship with with Doc something that he talked about a lot?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And was that something he wanted to accentuate in the book?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Dave Parker had a photo, had a photo uh on him, you know, for most of the uh his life in the last like 20, 30 years, just of him and Doc Ellis.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: He kept it in his wallet.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um Doc meant so much to him.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, and this is kind of what we explore in the second book, is is the relationship of Doc Ellis and Willie Stargil to Parker.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, one is it it's almost like something from Animal House.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: One one is the the angel on his shoulder, and one's the uh the wise cracking devil, but they're both highly intelligent, highly insightful, and and doc really taught Parker so much about life and and and hanging out and this and that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and you really see that everything you know about Doc Ellison, everything you know about Willie Stargil are really combined in Dave Parker.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and all of the the work that he did with Barry Lark and Eric Davis, Paul O'Neill, and um and Cal Daniels in uh in Cincinnati was reflected on what guys like Willie Stargil did.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and his time in the early 80s was maybe reflected a little bit on on how he learned how to hang out from Doc Ellis.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, in in addition to other things.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually explore that to a great detail in the second book.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you talked about the the early 80s stuff, and I I think when you guys get into Parker's drug use in the book, uh there's this very interesting recurring theme, uh kind of referring to that stuff in like coded phrases or euphemisms.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and when you did that, those phrases were always in italics.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think it even at one point you guys talk about like living life in in the italics.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Can you can you talk about the creative thinking behind covering the drug use in that manner?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there have been a lot of books.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, God, I think Doc Gooden's written three or four books.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Daryl's written three or four, he has another one coming out now.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there have been a lot of books on on athletes and ball players talking about their drug escapades.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, Parker's in many ways kind of a poetic guy.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So he's like, I'm gonna do this differently.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna do this differently?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: differently and and I thought about it and and and I said what is it what does it really feel like and then he said basically you know doing cocaine is like living life in italics so um I said okay so what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk about it we're not gonna use the word until the end until you stop so we're gonna get cute with it the whole way through those six years those three or four chapters and then finally in in the last time once you stop that's when you'll tell everybody cocaine is like living life in italics wow so so that kind of represents that struggle I guess where when you're in the middle of that you you're not really aware of the full gravity of what it is you're doing to your life and then and then at the end it's more of a reality is that is that kind of what what you were going for?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's very accentuated no doubt about it and uh it's an accent ext accentuated experience and and it's just he wanted to basically walk people through what what he was dealing with and how he how he handled himself and whatnot and uh it was part of the whole you know honesty package and and he really wanted to uh not pussyfoot over it it's you know I got a lot of accolades with John Diaquisto when when we wrote Basketball John calling it one of the most honest baseball portrayals ever written so just five years later with with Cobra we wanted to take the same journey yeah and he really does get into that a lot he he says in one time he thought cocaine was like a controllable social activity which people don't remember that there was a pretty good period of time there where cocaine was seen like alcohol or or cigarettes or whatever it wasn't it wasn't this hard drug um in people's minds then he also talks about you know him trying to find a way to cope with a lot of the the the stuff that he was dealing with in life you know that that um there was a an offseason I think it was the 76 offseason where Joe Brown retired and Danny Murtaugh died and a bunch of guys got traded and you know the again like you said the title of the book the brotherhood part of the book uh that was a difficult transition for him um to lose all those guys that that were brothers and and people people always talk about you know oh that's it's a business sports is a business and I don't know maybe maybe modern players feel that way more now but um going back to the the whole idea that it was family was it difficult for him losing teammates uh Danny Murtaugh people like that was that that must have been very difficult yeah I mean I when we we people going going back and talking about the business of sports it's much more of a business now than it was then there were a lot of teams that weren't making money and there were a lot of teams where the team wasn't the absolute focus of the owner and and with with the the Galbreths I mean they had you know interests in in in real estate and construction and and this and that and insurance and um the pirates it it almost seemed like they lost money like in the 70s for the first five years of the 70s they lost money as a team and it almost seemed like the Pirates were something of like a light tax shelter for the Galbreths and and that kind of explains why he just you know the the ownership just let Joe Brown do what he needed to do.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if you make a little money, yay, that's great.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you lose a little money not a big deal.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Don't lose a lot of money but you kind of have you you have the run of the place you get to do whatever you want for the most part because he knows Joe Brown wasn't a reckless guy but Joe Brown had had a lot of leeway to do what he wanted and Danny Murtaugh was his guy.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Danny Murtaugh was his his you know his best friend and even when Murtaugh was having health issues and quit in 71 you have 1973 comes around the Houston Astros manager is Leo DeRosher they're looking to get rid of him and ownership starts talking to Danny Murtaugh and I had this confirmed by some family members that you know they were they were far along and Joe Brown turns around and and Verdon's fighting with Richie Hebner and the team's not in first place.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're having their issues so he just goes to Danny Murtaugh and says you got to come back.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Forget about whatever you're doing you got to come back and and that's kind of what happened there why uh why Verdon was fired because there was there was a real talk that that Murtaugh was going to Houston.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that that was very interesting insight and and and talking about the money you know people might not remember Dave Parker was baseball's first million dollar player and and and I believe at that time the only other person in sports making more than Dave Parker was Muhammad Ali.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and he talks a lot about kind of the journey to get his contract um and again that this is a very different especially baseball because this is you had the collusion in the 80s you had the reserve clause for all those years I mean baseball was not yeah the the the the this this thing where the Dodgers signed guys for a gazillion dollars that this is a very recent thing in the in the course of baseball history.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: So for him to to get that contract that was a lot of um back and forth that was a little bit of good faith on his part with the Pirates and and a little good faith on their part too um what was what was that journey like for him what did he have any any hard feelings about any of that the I I know he shared a little bit of that in the book but you know what was what was that journey like for him trying to get that that big contract?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't so bad the the journey he didn't have any hard feelings about that aspect of the journey the hard feelings came in in the mid 80s when when new ownership came in and and and and tried to uh you know get get his uh claw back some of his money um basically you know you had 1976 77 everybody's starting to get these contracts and pete peterson had basically signed Parker pretty quickly and and Parker jumped at the three years you know$300,000 and then he's at spring training 77 and guys like Rose and Morgan are busting his chops saying things to the effect of you know why did you sign so soon?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're out of your mind.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're crazy.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then Parker starts seeing all these these contracts come up and and these guys getting these these monster deals and you have Goose Gossage on the team saying I'm not signing anything because I'm gonna be a millionaire at the end of the year.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um and we all know that uh the Goose only had that one and done season with the Pirates in 77.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: So he felt a little annoyed about that but um but his agent Tom Rich just reassured him you're gonna get paid.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody is going to pay you.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to think that I've talked a couple times to Dave Winfield about this that had Parker gone to free agency he would have gotten that contract that Winfield got in 1980 when Winfield got the uh 10 years 20 million dollars with the Yankees the George Steinbrenner was was very enamored with Parker and he was probably going to sign him um in in the winter of 79 if Parker was available and we all know that Parker signed that previous winter in 78 I I going back to like the drug use I found Parker said something insightful when he said the first time he did drugs was in a I think it was in an airplane or it was after a World Ser after the 79 World Series and the a a person had given him you know whoever was it given you know the drugs and he said you know when you get something for free that the product is you and I I've said that that's extremely insightful that you know it's very interesting.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I found that quote you know just about you know obviously dealing with addiction and such that you know they they they aren't selling so much the product you're using they're just trying to get you hooked on the product.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah and and that was the thing he was uh the guy he called the medicine man and um and Parker really handled that in a very classy way that these these guys who who were dealing and involved with with drug distribution in the late 70s early 80s kind of had had gone to jail they they'd paid their debt to society so we were like look if anybody wants to know these guys' names there's you there's internet there's YouTube there's the cocaine seven book they could find it very easily so we wanted to handle that in a very classy and again creative literary poetic manner and um and that was that was kind of how how we handled that with both the medicine man and quote unquote the chef in in the later chapters.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Once again folks the book is called Cobra a life of baseball and brotherhood it's available on Amazon it's available in local bookstores and it's available via the the uh links we have in the show description to to Steve's point about the um the the the the insightful quote I think there's a lot of um there's a lot of good life lessons in the book was that was that intentional as you guys were writing this or did it just come across as part of the story well Parker had had had a a very very uh eventful life and he did want to impart um some life lessons on people and we even referenced that in the beginning of the book we say if you want to share these life lessons with your children and grandchildren that's great we know the language gets a little salty here and there but um but there are lessons and things to be learned about life and as a 71 year old man he um he wanted to impart that on everybody yeah and I think that that's that really comes across it's not it's not just a collection of stories and there's a lot in there about him you know wild nights and and parties and and you know clubs and all that stuff but I don't I don't think it's without you know being able to glean some some like I said life lessons off of it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah that was really you know he wanted I mean when you're gonna write a book you want it he wanted to tell his stories and and he was a master storyteller and he wanted to really take people on on a trip through the 70s and uh and I believe that we did that and we wanted to be as as specific as we could and he wanted to be specific and tell some of these really cool stories like the one with going to the barbecue place up on the hill in his uniform which I thought was absolutely fantastic and and you know things of that nature.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just he wanted to he wanted to sit down and and talk about his life and you know he was a man in full so he was it was important to him what was uh Dave's relationship later with uh Pete Rose because obviously he went to Cincinnati after the Pirates and did did he have any you know knowledge of all the stuff Pete was doing on the side there or have any suspicions ever or anything that is any way you can speak to any of that um they were both they were very similar they they came from similar type of neighborhoods they were both you know Cincinnati was one of the most integrated cities in America at the time um the 40s 50s 60s and um basically they so they kind of knew each other they knew each other in different circles and and Pete went to a competing high school uh years before Parker but it was maybe maybe like eight or eight or nine years beforehand but they were very very close at one point and they both knew each other they hung out with each other uh we we had one chapter is called the Ohio players where we parallel tell the parallel stories of Pete Rose's free agency ascent and Parker's you know contract talks with with Pittsburgh so they were they were pretty tight and they would hang out at a batting cage in Cincinnati and Pete would say I'm getting paid you need to get paid and uh and Parker was like I'm a bucko for life and then Pete looked him in the eye and said that's what I said you got to get paid.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they were very tight and then when he came Parker really vouched for for Rose to come back in Cincinnati in 80 in 84 and um and that worked really well until it didn't and and Rose basically came in and said look you're gonna handle the players and just you know be my co-manager and he actually used that term and the problem was that his plan worked too well that so many of the players began listening more to Parker than to Pete and that got Pete a little jealous is that is really what happened and ultimately um Cincinnati ended up trading Parker in um in 87 to Oakland and I'll tell you a funny story I ran into Pete Rose at a book signing like about a year before the uh Cobra was published and we talked and we talked and um and and I said you know I'm doing a book with Dave Parker and I got his number I called him he didn't pick up I texted him he didn't respond left it unopened and then about four or five months later I'm at home one day and it's like 11 o'clock in the afternoon 11 o'clock in the morning and I look at my phone and it pops up Charlie Hussle.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Pick up and I hear this voice I hear the Pete voice saying I'm in a I'm in a limo from Vegas going to LA I got three hours go wow so me and Pete talked for three hours and and when we ended the conversation I did ask him about the trade and of course typical Pete fashion oh I don't remember that but everything else he he knew like like a steel trap and at the end of the call he said tell Dave I said hi no tell him I love him oh wow wow that's really cool yeah yeah and and he yeah he Pete kind of came across as a mentor for him for a lot of years almost and and he he said he he needed to go get paid I think I remember him also saying like you need to have a plan right you you need to have a plan just assume you're gonna be there for life and they're just gonna keep reupping your contract and giving you more and more money every time so it yeah that was that was interesting.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I think that I think the very first paragraph of the book is you know him talking about Pete Rose because it's it's the day that Pete breaks the the hit record and Dave Parker's in Pittsburgh for the drug trials yeah when I when I heard that that was the day and when I looked you know I you know we all grew up during that time or whatever but when you see specific dates and you go back and you look like holy crap it's September 11th 1985 the day that Pete Rose breaks the hit record Parker's spending the morning in a court in downtown Pittsburgh um I said that's we gotta I I I said we gotta open the book there.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and basically I we talked about it and we thought wouldn't it be cool if Parker's the first words in Parker's book is apologizing to Pete Rose.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: The man who spent the the latter part of his life you know signing baseball saying I'm sorry we thought it would be cool to start it off with having Parker apologize to Pete and did did I I noticed like Parker like really a great depth of knowledge about baseball he just you know really seemed one of the smarter players like I I mean you know I've read ball four and other books like that and it just really his baseball knowledge comes apart comes through was did he ever consider getting into manager or coaching at all in baseball?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: He he coached one year with the Angels he coached a following year with uh Tony LaRouce his former manager at Oakland when they were at St.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Louis in 1998 when Maguire hit the 70 Homers um which he he he doesn't totally take credit for that but he felt like that he had a little influence he had been with McGuire in Oakland as a teammate so they had a nice rapport that he basically would would point things out to McGuire during that season to keep him on track.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: So he felt real um real pride in that um but for the most part he's a really intelligent baseball player let me let me give you an example he um in spring trainings he would recognize that certain pitchers needed to show the one thing that pitcher young pitchers needed to show in spring training was velocity.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: If they didn't have velocity they weren't going to the big club they weren't getting promoted so the first thing they needed needed to do when when they faced a pitch a hitter in spring training was throw heat.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: So Parker knew he was getting first pitch heat in every just about every at bat in spring training and he just feasted on it he had he had the uh the talent and the skill and the ability to hit any any fastball that came to him.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: So he would have these these stats in spring training batting 350 here and 400 there and so when they would they would try to demote him he would fight back and say I batted 350 and granted people would say yeah it's spring training numbers but the fact was that Parker always lit it up in spring training because he recognized the need of the pitchers to just throw fastballs.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah he he he I think he even talks about like like there was almost like a aha moment when he like unlocked that secret so that that was that was cool that that insight knowledge.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: He he also really opens up about the stuff that happened between him and the fans in the 80s.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he talks about he would get racist hate mail almost every day.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: He talks about when the fan threw the battery at him at the River Stadium and how he literally had to pull himself out of the game for his own safety.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then at the end of the book he kind of you know talks about his love for Pittsburgh and and it kind of feels like time has healed a lot of those wounds.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Where where do you think he really was at the end of his life about all that?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I I I always when I read stuff like that, you know it it sounds very nice on paper.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like oh this was a very hard time and the fans were pretty cruel um but a lot of the fans were nice and I looking back I love them but but I feel like it's probably more it's probably more complex than that isn't it yeah I mean like when we were all hanging out for a uh a reunion of 79 players he he still had a little a little anger at some of the um the fans in 80 and 81 who were a little disrespectful and and we talked about this at length you know he would say like well Willie Stargell would often say you know I got hate mail in 64 65 fans threw things at me in in in in the early six in the mid-60s and Parker then would say but they didn't love you first and they loved Parker first and they loved him in 74 and they loved it they really loved him in 75 and 76 and then you know things got complicated with free agency and and uh and everybody talks about the uh Western Pennsylvania economy in 78 and 79 and whatnot and the resentment of of a of a black athlete getting a million dollars a year um but it was really the fact that that he just kind of got rich in in front of everybody and that kind of that kind of bothered a few people in the cobra twilight documentary I think Joe Green says it best you know when you're in a uh a stadium of 30 000 people you don't hear the 2900 people 29500 people cheering for you you hear the 500 people booing you oh boy you know um and then that's that's kind of what happened there but but Parker the Pirates absolutely treated him like gold in in his final years and they really they are they they rolled out the the gold carpet for him uh whenever he came to town and and he was treated like a favorite son uh in the last decade of his life and and the fans just simply adored him every time he showed his face at uh at PNC park so I think I think those wounds were for the most part healed.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: What what do you think it was about the fans because because here in Pittsburgh it's it's weird we so so I I'll I'll say this even even up till today fans fans seem to get very hurt by any time a player wants more money and and which is kind of odd because it's not our money right it's it's an owner's money.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah but but I even even very recently um cam Hayward for the Steelers who who's beloved who's who's been on the Steelers for years and years and years had a had a very mini I don't know three day I forget what it was holdout in training camp and you go on social media and it's just you know whatever he can he can go go home you know he's playing a game for money I I you know I work in a mill and I I don't get paid that much you know I mean people just get so angry about it.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it was a lot of that kind of stuff?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know you mentioned like at the especially at the time man people were so struggling economically do you think it was race do you think it was all of the above all of the above is probably the best answer.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I think you know whatever the uh the talk radio was the I guess the uh the social media of the time and uh just that or or letters to the editor of the time that's what that's we we we always read letters of the editor when we do research for the pot and some of them are uh it's pretty much like what you would read on Facebook you know just same stuff it's funny like 50 years later people have not changed no not at all not at all it it's like people like everybody on the internet acts like we just discovered all this like yesterday it's like no this has been going on you go back to the nineteen twenty five World Series, and you will see silliness like this.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just it it's it's it's the same kind of sentiment.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's just a fire hose now, is really what it is.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I and I think that people that the people that are sad or unhappy in their lives manifest themselves in in politics and sports.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if they're unhappy about something in their own life, they'll they'll pick they'll they'll nitpick the things that they are angry about and and shout it through their their own personal bullhorn.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it definitely like I can see like with everything going on, like all the mills were closing, like in the late 70s, early 80s, and here you already have like a guy that you know there's always going to be those racial tensions, especially back then.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then you add in now he's making money while you're losing your job, and it was okay when Dave Parker was just a guy, maybe not making that much, but now you know you add in the racial component and he's rich, and yeah, you got a lot of reasons to not like a guy.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I I and he always hustled, like it just I don't get it.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: My dad, my dad loved Dave Parker and said how great he was.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he threw was it in the all-star game he threw that guy out at home play?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Was that Brian Downing at home play, Jim Rice at third base?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: My dad said he was one of the greatest fielders he ever saw.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was like unbelievable.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, such a talent.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, five-tool player.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no doubt.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and and you know, to ask to I can't deny that there's a racial element there, but and there are other towns where Mike Schmidt was one of the highest paid players in the late 70s and he got berated by the fans in in Philadelphia.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: So there was there was the element, there was economic resentment, plus a a a little a layer of racial anger as well.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but there were a lot of players that that heard it from the fans after they got their their big deals.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of things he might have been feeling some resentment over, and I I don't think that he got into this too much in the book, but I I you know at the time that the book came out, he still was not in the Hall of Fame.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: What what were his feelings on that?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Every so often, you know, we'd be home at his place watching a football game or this or that, or going over the the book stuff, and he he would just say, Man, I should be in the Hall of Fame.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, part of the the the Parker family, um, there was like in the foundation, uh there was a real push to get into the Hall of Fame.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: That really wasn't my element with him.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was just, we were just, you know, we became like buddies and this and that.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say to him, like, look, how many ball players out there got two batting titles and a ring in each in each league?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, nobody.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Who's got two batting titles, trip gold gloves, and a ring in each league?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would say, who had more fun after midnight, Parkway?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd laugh and he'd be like, let's just go to P.F.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Chang's.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he would forget about it.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, you know, um it was there because these guys were his contemporaries.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you go back to the baseball cards, it's him and Rod Carew back to back for uh for a couple of years, and uh the batting champion, uh the batting leaders baseball card.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what he sees, because he gets maybe five or six baseball cards every two days in the mail.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they every day he's reminded you were a batting champ with with Hall of Famer Rod Carew.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: You and Rod Carew are are contemporaries and and uh and elite you know teammates in in success and stardom and whatnot.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Keith Hernandez uh for our book told me that at that time Dave Parker was the best player of his generation.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when you hear these things over and over and over again, you know, you you believe I should be in that room too.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: If they if everybody thinks that way, I should be in that room too.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it it there was a book that came out in like the very early 80s, and it was I I think it was the hundred, but it was like the hundredth greatest baseball players of all time.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it had Babe Ruth and it had, you know, all the Dave Parker was in that book.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: And for a guy to be that highly regarded at that midpoint of his career, and then and then you know, people don't remember he was uh really good with Cincinnati in those in those years he went to the Reds.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: So he had kind of like a renaissance second half of his career.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think do you think it was all the drug trial stuff that kept him out of the Hall of Fame for as long as it did?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I I do believe that.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I went back and I looked at the numbers from from a through a samormetric lens, and basically there's never been a ball player who hit the heights that Parker did, and then the lows that Parker did, and then rose like a Phoenix in the way that he did.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Doc Gooden never did it, Darrell never did it, Dick Allen never did it.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's nobody.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: The the great Lonnie Smith kind of approached it a little bit, but nobody had ever hit the you know, the wins above replacement numbers that Parker did, and then went to nothing and then went back up.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's never been done.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm looking at the stats right there, and you're you're nailed right in the head.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like he'd has these down years, and then he goes to Cincinnati and he like he finds himself again.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Was I mean, what was it just health or getting clean, a little bit of both?
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what what what do you attribute his like resurgence in Cincinnati to?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: It helped that he was home.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: It helped that he got to see his family, he got married in 84.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he he had a whole family there, everybody was there.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody, every day he played a game at the ballpark.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was a family reunion, a high school reunion.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: He was home.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and he lived literally 15 minutes from the park.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you go right down 75 or 71, and you get you get right to Riverfront Stadium, and it was an amazing commute to work for half the season.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he was so thrilled to be with his family and home every day.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, when we talk about um his favorite season of all time, what was your favorite season?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: All in, everything in.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: He said 1984, because he was old.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he loved his seasons with the pirates and whatnot, but in terms of pure joy in the moment, it was being able to see his parents and his brothers and sisters and his family and his cousins and high school buddies and whatnot.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, going back home really uh reinvigorated him.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wanted to tell a story, and and I love that, you know, with with your um your podcast, you know, the Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was um I was presenting at the Hall of Fame this past February, and I created a formula that basically determined the most exciting competitive World Series of all time.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And on that list is the um the Pittsburgh Pirates and Orioles in '79.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked uh Kent DeColvey.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was putting everything together.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had about five to you know, like an hour before I was presenting, and I didn't think I had enough.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I had Ken DeColve's number.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: I called him and I asked him, why didn't you pitch to Eddie Murray instead of why did you pitch to Eddie Murray instead of Singleton in game seven?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Why did you I said, why did you choose to do that?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I didn't choose.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Chuck Tanner did.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he told me, don't give Murray anything good to hit, but don't walk him.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: So pitch him safe.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And basically what happened was Eddie Murray had gone like four for five in games one and two, and then in the eighth inning, he slid into second base and messed up his wrist.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody knew about this, but his wrist was hurting him.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: So he comes up to the plate in game three and he has a completely different stance.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Ed Ott noticed the stance, and he told Chuck Tanner, and he told all the pitchers, and they pitched Murray differently.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Murray couldn't swing the way he normally did.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: He couldn't use his hands the way he wanted to because of his bad wrist.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: So he needed to make this adjustment in the batter's box to leverage more power.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when Murray was looking for a pitch out over the plate, he was looking to hit it the other way because his hands weren't working well.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: He'd close the stance.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: When he was looking for a pitch in, he would open the stance.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Ott told Nakosha, he told Tanner.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: So they pitched Murray completely differently.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: He went from being four for five with a double, a home run, and five walks to 0 for 21 and 4 strikeouts.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's that's a great story.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a story that's never been told.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's awesome.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I you know, you would have thought if go going back and recounting that situation, I probably would have thought, well, you know, we all know Eddie Murray is the Hall of Fame all-time great player, but in 1979, he was he was at the very beginning of his career, so maybe he wasn't maybe just you know, the pirates weren't aware of how good he was, but but it sounds like they were, and I believe he was already an all-star and he was pretty good by that point.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting that there was a lot more to that than than just, you know, uh, well, this this we're not as scared of this guy as we should be.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was funny because the previous game, T'Colby stuck uh struck out Singleton with an overhand curveball, which is something he had never thrown before.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, This is a good time.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you just throw overhand?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and he threw the sign down and he just threw overhand and and and struck him out.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny you should say that because to Colby did say, I didn't know Murray was a Hall of Famer in 1979, I just knew he was a great hitter.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that was um that that was that that interesting little story.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great story.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: That was great.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thought you'd appreciate that.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: But no, we basically were I was working with Parker on the second book um when when he passed, and um, and basically it's a uh it's called King's Island, and it it's the story of of Doc Ellen of the 1974 season.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a Parker always wanted a diary book, like Reggie had a diary book in 74, Pete had a diary book in 74, and obviously you know that Ball 4 was a diary book a few years before that.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Parker had always wanted one, and so I finally we decided for the second book that's what we're gonna do and just focus on '74.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's this real trip through Pittsburgh and the culture at that time.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like Dick Promante is a character in the book.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Joe Gillam is a character in the book.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: These are people that Parker knew.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Walt Harper for the Jazz Club was a character, Fred Rogers is a character.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they go see movies at the Stanley Theater.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Dinners at Lamont, Top of the Triangle, uh, The Colony in Green Tree.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's that kind of story.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it's also about how Doc Ellis and Willie Stargil make a bet during spring training on who over who will become the first black manager in baseball.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of focus on that as like the definitive journey and and and chronicle that story.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what we're working on, what we were working on at the time of his passing.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's pretty cool.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, folks, once again, the book's called Cobra, a life of baseball and brotherhood.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: You can find it on Amazon, you can find it in bookstores, and again, we'll have links in the show description.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um Dave, I I I wanted to wrap this up by asking you, what do you think Dave Parker's legacy is specifically here in Pittsburgh?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because um what I've seen as a fan over the years is that when someone leaves on you know what we consider bad terms, uh then people tend to let that cloud sometimes cloud all the good stuff they did.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically, I'm thinking of guys like Barry Bonds or Antonio Brown, and I I hope that's not the case for Dave Parker.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it has been in more recent years, but what do you think his legacy is?
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: One of the coolest players to ever wear the Bucko uniform, who also got a helped us get a ring.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well said.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: Dave, thanks so thanks so much for taking the time to join us today.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, tremendous book, folks.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: If if if you love baseball, if you love, especially if you were a fan back then, but even if you're like Steve and I and you're you're a little young to to to remember a lot of the specifics of the 70s, um, it's such a great read.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um really highly recommend it.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Go out and get it.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: And Dave, uh, again, thank you so much.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: Tim, Steve, this is an absolute pleasure.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is really a uh a treat.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everybody, so much for listening to our little show here.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Please check us out on social media on Facebook or Instagram.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: Please, if you're whatever podcast servers you're listening on has a option to rate the show, please do that as it really helps other people find our show.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again, and we'll catch you next time.