Latest / Tiff Talks / Life After Dentistry: What We Wish We'd Known Sooner | Laura Brenner

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Life After Dentistry: What We Wish We'd Known Sooner | Laura Brenner · Tiff Talks

• Tiffany: What do you know now that you didn't know then that you wish you could tell to any dentist who is out there that is struggling? Laura Brenner: Hmm. So my struggle was that I was very unhappy. We our stories have some Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: really strong symbol similarities. In my Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: third year of practice, I was just realized I was so unhappy and I didn't want to do it anymore. But it was my third year, so I couldn't allow myself to do anything else. So I switched jobs and that was good for a while, but you know. Over the course of the next seven years, I got better at dentistry, but I wasn't feeling better about it. So I think at the time I felt so stuck. Like there's no way out. It's like you get married. You marry dentistry without ever even going on a date. You have to just jump right in. You have to invest all the hundreds Tiffany: Yes. Laura Brenner: of thousands of dollars. You have to, you know, Tiffany: Yes. Laura Brenner: get into school. You have no idea. So you're like, I'm stuck, there's no way out. So I would tell younger me that there is a way out. And I feel like, and I think you would probably agree with this, Tiffany, is like anytime anybody ever gives themselves permission and actually s does something else, like walks away from clinical dentistry, they look back and they're like, What took me so long? Why did I think that was gonna be so hard? It's like we think it's gonna be so hard and then it's so much easier. Tiffany: My God, yes. Yes. It's so much easier. And you know, my biggest regret, hands down, was that it took me so long. I I knew it was I had a a call with my then coach and I told her I want to want it, but I don't want it. And and I should have left then, but I I I stuck it out for two more years, two more years of misery when I already knew I was done trying. I I didn't want it. And Laura Brenner: What was your whole timeline? Tiffany: okay, I practice. so I graduated 2010. I went to rehab in 2017. I got out of rehab. I immediately bought a practice. I walked into a practice that I was there for an interview to be an associate. And I walked in and I was like, this is pretty. Can I buy it? And they're like, sure. Like no plan to buy. It was so impulsive. It was so me. Like I I thought it was pretty and I wanted to buy it. And they happened to be selling it. And everyone told me not to buy it because it was in a horrible location, super saturated, the most expensive zip code in Austin. It was too big. My rent was $13,000. and I was just like, but it's pretty. So I bought it. And then I ran it that I mean, so many bad things happen. And then I ran it for like six or seven years. I think it was just over seven. And I I just finally was like, I can't, I can't do it. And this is literally killing me. I had a miscarriage and it was the sign that like my body can't take it anymore. And I knew that already. I had lost so much weight from the beginning. Like if you look at pictures of me from the beginning of practice till the end, I look like a completely different person. And it was it was that feeling that I'm stuck. or that I had been invested so much, how could I walk away that I couldn't let go of? What was what was your moment? Did you have a moment where you knew, tell me about that process? Laura Brenner: Yeah, and yeah, and that is so relatable and yeah, that it's so relatable that it's like I used to say I'm dying inside. So it's kind of funny now to hear you say it was it was just you know creating so many physical problems and it was just I hear a lot of other dentists say it's killing my soul. It's like there is a little soul crushing, I'm dying inside. Tiffany: Yes, soul crushing. Yes. Laura Brenner: Like when you're saying that. It means something. It's not just you being lazy or you being, you know, sensitive or dr it's Tiffany: Yes Dramatic Laura Brenner: like you don't say that unless it means something. So, you Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: know, for me, I practiced for 10 years and it was in my Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: third year. I was at a kind of difficult practice. It was a t we took a lot of insurance plans Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and I it was so busy. I was seeing 30 patients a day. I didn't have time to Tiffany: gosh. Laura Brenner: connect with people and I was always worried because of that that you know I couldn't build the relationship so they were gonna sue me and it was just so stressful all the time. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: I thought that I was like, I hate this three years in. You know, like the first three years, I think a lot of us have a lot of grit and we're tough Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and we're gonna work through it. But I had this invisible marker that I had for myself. okay, when I hit the three year line, then it's gonna be so much easier. And then when I hit the three year mark, it wasn't easier. I still felt so much pain. So I was like, I want to quit. And then I was like, but actually, you know what? I talked to a Burkhart rep who I knew and I took him to lunch and I was like, hey, is anyone hiring, are they hiring at your company? Because I want a job. And he talked me out of it. And I get people will do that, right? People will tell Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: you to buy a practice. They'll tell you, he said, You're way too qualified to do my work. And you'll, you know, like you can't lower yourself to that. Which is he was saying about his own job, which is funny. And so it sort of silenced me, you know, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and we listened to people, and it was like, okay, he's right. He actually got me my next job. So I switched jobs. You have to figure out is it the job or the career? And it Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: just over the years kept not working. It just I kept end up ending up feeling the same way. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: then seven years in, so I it was at three years, I switched jobs. At seven years in, I think I switched jobs again. But I remember having a conversation with my husband, and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: he was like, You need to do something about this. He's like, You cannot come home crying. Every day. You cannot wake up at 2 a.m. with your insomnia tossing and turning and worrying. He's like, sort it out. He's like, our Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: marriage, let's see, we were married for probably about two years at that point. And he was like, Our Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: marriage is not gonna survive this. So sort it out. I don't care what we have to do, if we have to sell our house, if we have to move. He's like, it's not worth living your life this way. So I needed that permission. Tiffany: Mm. Laura Brenner: 'Cause we won't give it to ourselves. And then of course I didn't give it to myself for three more years. And then finally I left after ten. and I just couldn't do it anymore. It was like, I just knew at this point it's either gonna be me or dentistry that goes. And it's not gonna be me. Tiffany: Yes. I heard this this thing recently on a podcast. It said all asks for advice are asks for permission in disguise. And I just I thought that's like it was fair, it hit me because it was like, yes, I think so. All the people that ask for, well, should I leave? Should I not leave? Like, I I don't think they're really asking. I think they already know that that's what they want and they're asking for permission. Laura Brenner: I also feel like you can tell when you talk to people because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: they are saying it's very clear to them. They're they're really listening to their intuition, which is like, I feel this way, this keeps coming back. I call it the nagging feeling that keeps coming back. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And but there's this like second half of the sentence that I call the comma butt. It's Tiffany: Yeah, okay. Laura Brenner: like, I'm really unhappy in dentistry, but I need money. Or and which is totally valid, by the way. I get it. That was me too. But what happens is we know what's true for us, and then all the fears and other things that we will not survive or we won't be safe if we change anything come into play Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and they make us stay stuck. So you can really tell. Like people say it. P you you say it, you say it to yourself. Just listen to yourself. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: It's like an argument between your heart and your brain. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. What do you what do you think about that? Like do you when people say I can't leave and there is that that money component, do you think That is an excuse, or do you think that there are situations where you really can't? Because I have opinions about this and I wanna know what you what you think. Okay. Laura Brenner: Ooh. Okay, then you can tell me yours. so I think it's very true for a lot of people. But I don't think it has to be true. So I think we all have solutions to it. I think we believe it's true. but like I just think it's bigger than that. I think it's I've I've known people who have I had a client who he could have left financially, but he wouldn't ever allow himself. So it comes down to your identity and and who will you be and what will you do. And I just think, you know, we we kind of pigeonhole ourselves into thinking that we have nothing else beyond dentistry. It's weird. It's like I've never seen a career so amazing dentistry, where in order to do it, you have to do things that most people in the world can't do. And we're we're like collectively this really talented, strong, smart, amazing group of people. I've never seen more people feel horrible about themselves, who have all these amazing qualities. And it's like dentistry kind of beats you down, the culture of it too, where we feel like it's all we have and we're nothing. But the dentistry is what makes us something. So Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: I I get it. I think it's real. I thought it for a very long time. But then when I it's just the fear. When I crossed that bridge, it was like, I was making so much less money, but I never felt more abundant and free. Cause I Tiffany: Yes. Laura Brenner: you know, like abundance is actually a state of mind, also. So I get it. I think it's real. And and your to your question specifically, I think sometimes we have reasons. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And it's really good to question if our re I just wrote a thing about this, by the way. Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: I think it's important to question is my reason becoming an excuse? Tiffany: Yes. Laura Brenner: And there's nothing wrong with that. Don't be ashamed that you're using this as an excuse. It's just information to help you empower yourself to move through it. Okay, what's yours? Tiffany: Yeah. I I think the more honest statement is I can't afford it and maintain the life that I'm currently living. And I think that that you can always make choices to change your life. And it's more a question of if you're willing to. Like, you know, there were I was living the quote unquote perfect life. I had the two kids, I had the two dogs, I lived in my dream home. I owned a practice. And I was miserable. I was miserable in my marriage. I was using drugs. I had, you know, I I was basically a single parent raising these two little boys. And and that was the the pinnacle, you know, that like for all intents and purposes, that was the pinnacle I was striving for my entire life. And from the outside, that's my gosh, you made it, you know, you have everything. And I was miserable. And now I live in a rented home and I and for I we just moved into this home, but before that I was living in a tiny little condo, a little apartment, and I am now a single mom. I have a wonderful partner, but like from the outside, I'm a failed business owner. I am divorced. I, you know, like I don't own things. I'm not a practice owner anymore. And all of those things I realize and it it takes you going through it to learn that it doesn't matter. I make no money. I live on savings. I I don't I don't care. Like I my life feels so expansive right now. I do art again. I talk to cool people. I make a difference in a different way. And I think that's something that that you don't realize when you're in it is the life that you can create on the other side when you're not completely consumed with being miserable. Laura Brenner: Yeah, it makes me think of taking vacations because Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: I used to escape my life via my vacations. So there was one year that I was, you know, as dentists were like, I can't take two weeks off a year. And there was one year where I took a full week off every three months. So it was like once a quarter I took a full full week off. And that felt like a big experiment. And it was totally fine. Like it didn't change Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: my amount of money I had in the bank account. at all. It totally Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: worked. But I would get there and two days in I would already be sad that in six days I had to go home. And Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: the whole time I would spend almost like wishing away being present in that moment because I hated the life I had to go back to. I just hated the moments of it. There was so much pain. It was an escape. And so I still love to travel. But I don't have to travel anymore because I don't have to escape anything right now. So you get to see that the things we're taught that are important, like I need to have the money, I need to have Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: the fancy car, I need you, you kind of stop caring about it because feeling free feels so much better. And even thinking about the letting go and living on less. When you're making a lot of money, if you feel like you have to hoard it and hold on to it, you're actually in scarcity. Cause you're not you're not free in living. And truly, like to to our point that it's all about a mindset is I made less money when I left dentistry and I didn't I stopped caring about it. Because you feel so good, it doesn't matter. You don't need this external thing to prove your worth or to make you feel better. And that still is always the work. For me, it's the work. I'm still working Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: on I I am valuable and worthy without using like my income dollar signs to define that. It Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: doesn't mean that I I mean, still get to make money, right? We can still feel good about ourselves without needing money to prove our worth and then still make money. But there it's that feeling. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think a piece that people forget is like I could go back and temp at any time. if it became like a crisis situation where I really needed to make money. People have teeth everywhere. There are dentists everywhere that that need fill-ins or temp work and and we have this like very all or none thinking. I think dentists are really good at that. What what do you think that's about? Like why do you think we are so it's either I'm in or I'm out? Like, you know, there's no in between. Laura Brenner: Yeah. It is strange if you think about it. And it's probably part of our culture and dental school and, you you learn that there are people who are associates learn that I'm not really that successful unless I own a practice. And people who are in public health learn that only private practice dentists are the really successful ones. Or if you're a teacher, they say the horrible things about teachers and I'm we need to stop saying that stuff. Because what if you're the one that loves teaching? You're Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: not gonna let yourself follow the path that you love because someone's making a joke about the teachers in dental school, which is totally founded on nothing in the re in all reality. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: You know? And so we get into these I think the world, I think there's a lot of black and white thinking in the world. And this is why I love the sidekick, because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: Why can't you choose to work? If you wanted to I'm not sure you want to, but if you wanted to go back to two days a week, you could do it. And who cares other than you? And you Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Laura Brenner: know what else I find? And I bet you you've experienced this, is there's a la there's a long time that we hide what we really feel about dentistry because everyone around us is going to judge us or Try to tell us to do the thing we don't want to do, biopractice if we don't really want to. And we're so scared of them judging us and telling us what to do. But I always, I the experience I had was the minute I started owning what I believed and felt about my career, everybody else jumped on board with me to support me. So it's like what you're experiencing is what you're reflecting out, and people. Can read that. They can sense your energy. And so if you're feeling really ashamed and I'm a failure and this and I can't let anyone know, it's like they're the hawks circling. They mean well. They love you. But they're gonna try to help you fix it because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: they're just reading your energy. But when you own it, people are like, yes, they're so excited for you. Is that Tiffany: Yes. Yeah. my biggest y fear w or one of my biggest fears was what people were gonna think. All the all the specialists or the other practice owners or my classmates, like what I I was so afraid of their judgment. And when I quit, everyone was so excited for me. Like every you know, the the endodonist called and was like, I saw how miserable you are. And I think it's so courageous, And the oral surgeon was like, dude, I want to quit, you know? And like my friends all like nobody that I know of did the things that I was fearing the most, like talking shit or like, my gosh, she's a failure. Like I think we think we matter more to people than we actually do. Like people aren't Laura Brenner: yeah. Tiffany: really thinking about you in the way that you think you're thinking, you know, they're thinking about you. And And so I think that was the biggest surprise in all of it is is how, like you said, people rally and and they really ultimately want what's best for you. And they're worrying about their their own lives. And yeah. Laura Brenner: Totally. And if someone doesn't, I think you and I have both experienced the online, we'll call them trolls who have really talked down to us and gotten really personal. I've had some really personal comments thrown at me. They're triggered. It's about them. If they're doing that, it's about them. It's not about you. Tiffany: Can can we talk about that? Because funnily, yesterday our friend Alan Stern called me and I was like, Did I miss a call? why is he calling me? I called him back and he called to tell me that I was getting attacked in in a Facebook group. And he's like, I I just wanted you to know. And if you want, you know, maybe should go and respond. And so I went on and like. I know you've had this experience too where things are taken out of context and then horrible things are said about you. And a lot of them are you aren't grateful or you weren't you're not grateful enough or you don't have enough grit or one of them was like 15 years you j you were just getting started you quit too soon and it's like wait what like how are you allowed to make that that assumption and when you don't know my life like why do you think we attack each other like I I don't I don't get it. And it's so hurtful. Like do you have any things to say or your experiences and all of that? please. please. Laura Brenner: I have lots I have lots to say. Of course I do. Yeah, it is that's the thing too, is it's so hurtful. Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: especially when you're really in a fragile state. Like I think people don't realize that even though you and I appear so strong and convicted right now about our choices, is there i I'm I'm way, way, way, way, way past this with dentistry. I'm also I've been out longer than I was in. I've been out fifteen years. Can you believe that? I'm old. But thanks. Tiffany: Congrats. No. Laura Brenner: But like when you're going through that, and it's still a lot closer for you. So maybe you still feel this. It's like there are a lot of doubts that come in and it it it does feel sad. There's a grieving. It's like it it in itself is like a divorce. And people are attacking you and making judgments on who you are. At a very difficult time for you when you just need people to support you and lift you up. So on that point, I wish people could be more compassionate and also just a little more delicate the way they talk to each other online. Because I think obviously people don't talk to each other in real life the way they would online. Tiffany: Yeah, absolutely. Laura Brenner: the other thing that's so interesting to me is well, I don't understand why. I think it threatens them in some way. And I don't know why. I think maybe it's because when you love something you want other people to love it too and it comes from a generally good place, but something is threatening to them. maybe they think you're gonna give dentistry a bad name or I don't even know what it is. but I mean talk about also personal decisions. One of the ways that I was able to give myself an out was to open a business inside my husband's business. So he's a chiropractor and I started a weight loss coaching business and I was able to do I was able to open it was like a an easy vehicle. So I always tell people if you if you want to leave, you you don't have to prove yourself by creating the hardest exit route. If you have a friend who wants to partner with you doing something, great. If you want to get a job, great. If you wanna do what I did and I was able to do this, something I thought would be fun and interesting under the umbrella of my husband's office. I had people, I had dentists being like, well, not everybody can go and work for their husband. Like, what's the judgment on that? Like, that's just dumb. It's just dumb. There's a lot of worse words I wanna use right now, but I won't. Tiffany: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a sense of I heard this thing where it was like the people who get mad at babies crying on airplanes were the people that weren't allowed to cry when they were little. we attack the thing that is the most painful from our childhood. And I think what I see in a lot of these, and I don't want to generalize, but every single attack I've ever received has been from a man and not from a woman. what these men what I see is like I had to be miserable. You have to be miserable and stick through it too. And the fact that you left is not fair. I i I like that's the feeling I get. Of course, I have no idea, but It's like this club of misery and and that we escaped. I don't know, maybe that's too much conjecture, but I I see these people as not very happy in their career. they're their post after post after post is like being mean to other people. clearly you're not a happy person. I don't know. I I it's really hard for me not to want to respond to them all. I know you're probably past that, but I wanna say like. If you knew that that was the most painful thing I have ever experienced, more painful than my divorce, more painful than my dad passing away, more painful than going to rehab for 30 days, you know, like the most painful thing. And that I tried everything in my power to stay. Would you still say that? Like, do you know how much this hurts? And you know, then I'm like, okay, it's it doesn't matter. And and responding just makes you look more weak, more vulnerable, but I I am. I'm still very much in the stage where it hurts and not as much as the beginning, but it it still bugs me. Like I spiraled all night last night and I hate it. Laura Brenner: Yeah. it sucks. It does hurt. And it still hurts me too because I'm human and it's when it's personal and and so but it's a different kind. It's a different kind Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: of sting. It's more the sting about I it's more about the sting of it's personal, it's about me. But I had to tell myself, and this is what I always practice is just because so it's a good learning for me. Is that just because someone says it doesn't mean it's true because I'm an empath. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and when you are an empath, you're so good at taking into account what another person's point of view is so much Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: that you don't even see your own. So when someone tells you, I had someone on one of my blog posts say, I feel sorry for your husband. And that just cut me like years ago in 2011. It just like crushed my soul, you know, because I was like, you know, cause it just, you know, it just gets you at the core of everything. so now I think there's a it still gets me, but I think I've learned to manage it and one of my Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: practices is creating those mental boundaries because just because someone said it doesn't mean it's true. And and when they say it, it's so much more a reflection of who they are and how they're willing to talk to someone than than how I am. this is Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: not about me, it's about them. And you know, I think about if somebody so with career change or side gigs or, you know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs within dentistry doing other things. If somebody's gonna poo-poo you for Doing your side gig or whatever it is, it's because they don't believe that they're allowed to. Or they're never if when they want to do it, they're never gonna be successful because they don't believe that they're allowed to. And so they're poo-pooing you. Instead, they could be cheering you on and being like, that's really cool. I admire that. I wanna do that someday too. so it's always Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: about the people. And I've had some, it's yeah, I've had I st it still happens, but and Here's what's interesting. In the past, when it was on my blog, I just wouldn't reply. And then all these other people would come to my rescue. It was kind of nice. Tiffany: It's the best. Laura Brenner: Yeah, I just wouldn't reply. And then everyone else would. And I was like, yay, you know? And it feels like you're supported, which we need. Tiffany: Yes. Laura Brenner: and so but now I will I will defend myself if it feels worth it. And usually my thing is it's usually an anonymous person. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: So I always say, just show your face. If you have so much to say, show your Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: face. Cause that's what I'm doing. And you cannot pretend that your insults make you stronger than me. Because I'm a Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: lot stronger than you if you're hiding. And it's just owning that. And I think then it helps someone else. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The this was on a very popular dental Facebook group and their profiles were, I mean, we know who I know who it was. I or the who the the top offenders were. And it's just like, dang, like that's a bold statement to make with your profile picture, like of your face, you know? I I'm Laura Brenner: so they weren't anonymous. Tiffany: It was not anonymous and it was pretty Brutal. it it it wasn't one comment. It was like a slew of comments. And it's just like all of these, I don't know, all of these assumptions that were just wrong. I think that's the frustration. I have like this big thing about justice and and like the the fact that it's not true, you know? Like if it were true, okay, then then it's on me. But I don't I that feeling of the frustration of you're not even criticizing me about things that are true. It's so hard. Yeah. Laura Brenner: Right. I have a strong sense of, you know, wanting justice as well. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And so that is hard. But I maybe, you know, truly I think the practices just because they said it doesn't mean it's true. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Laura Brenner: over and over just saying that mantra. By the way, when it happens to me now, many years later, my heart starts beating. I have Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: I get like crazy, I have to process it, and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: it it ends up going away. And then I remind myself, just because they said it doesn't mean it's true. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and then it's always a reflection of them, not me. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. And what I find is I find it a good opportunity to have the conversation. Like I I took the time, I wrote a response. I chatted with Claude, you know, like and and really crafted what I wanted to say. And then I posted it. And I'm really not posting it for that person. I'm posting it for the people who are reading. Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: For this for the silent person that's struggling, that's afraid to speak out because they're afraid that will happen to them, like I'm more speaking to that person. And that's what I'm afraid of is that someone who maybe isn't as you know, like no like no filter as me or you, like they're they're not speaking out. And they're looking at me getting attacked and they're like, yeah, that's why I'm not doing that. Laura Brenner: Totally. Tiffany: And and and standing up in a way and saying like I'm okay. You know, it took me like three hours to get to where I'm okay, but like I'm okay now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Laura Brenner: Course. Yeah, it took you three hours and in ten years it'll take you an hour or twenty minutes. But you know what else I like to do is like you're saying is take it and create content out of it Tiffany: Mm. Laura Brenner: so that other people can see it because I like this may sound so grandiose, but I was like, I want to create a revolution in dentistry. Like let's just create Tiffany: Yes, I have that feeling too. Laura Brenner: did you use that word? Tiffany: that I want dent I want dentor match to create a revolution. I want it to change dentistry. Laura Brenner: I know we need a cultural revolution that allows people to focus on their wellness, allows people to be who they want to be, allows people to define success on our own terms, all those things, so that we're not shamed and beaten down into life submission. Tiffany: And speak about our struggles without it be feeling like it's betraying dentistry. I think that's one of the things every time I put a post, or not every time now, but when I put a post out out about how hard it is, people see it as betraying dentistry. And I'm Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: like, how does me speaking about my experience? betray dentistry. it's the truth. it's not it we hide under this veil of perfection and not speaking out. I think that is the revolution I wanna see is for it to be okay for us to be human, for us to say When a patient talks to us rudely, that we're allowed to say something back and we're not just supposed to be expected to eat it. Or Yeah. Laura Brenner: Yeah, I think there's a couple of misconceptions. And I think one of the misconceptions is that we I used to love dentistry. I was l I Tiffany: Same. Laura Brenner: wanted to do this from the time I was a kid. Tiffany: Same. Laura Brenner: And I l I used to always say, the corporate world is so brutal out there. What I love about dentistry is at least dentists who are business owners have so much heart and they really care about you and it's not that same kind of mentality and culture. I used to just defend It's like to all ends, even though it was creating so much pain for me. And then I went through a thing where I was like, I have to say I hate dentistry. And I had to leave it and separate it from it and walk away from it. And then when I got that space and some healing from the dark sides of it, then I was able to come back and I get to love dentist. I love dentistry. People are like, Do you want to help people in other fields? Because Work you do could help them too. And I'm like, no, I love dentistry. And I love that I get to be in it now on my terms as who I am, instead of fitting myself into this box. So I think there is that misconception that if we don't like this work, that we hate dentistry. Is no, like it's just a saying, dentistry's great, I love it so much, I love that I get to love it now. And then the other, I think, misconception is that because We didn't love it that we were bad at it or weak Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: or failures. Like I have worked with some of the most amazing successful dentists who have like if you saw them, you would never know it. But dentistry is like hurting them so much inside, and they are so good at what they do. So let's get Here's the part of other part of the revolution. let's stop saying that because you're choosing a different way, it means you're a failure or you're weak or you're a loser. Tiffany: Exactly. Yes. I I I That so speaks to me because I am technically really like I'm a good dentist. I I'm an artist, I paint, I draw, I like always like art is part of who I am. And and dentistry was an extension of that. I think the problem came when I thought being a good dentist meant I would be a good business owner. Like before I owned an office, I had a only a very vague understanding that they were completely different things. And that me being a good dentist did not then mean I would be a good practice owner. And And yeah, that that is something that you hear people say all the time is like, well, you must have sucked. It's like, well, no, I actually probably was better than you. You know. Laura Brenner: Ha ha ha ha. Tiffany: And and the empath part I I wanted to bring back to, I think the people that are burning out are the empathic ones. And I think it's leaving the people in the field that are a lot more cutthroat, a lot less caring, a lot just more business savvy. Laura Brenner: So absolutely 100% the empaths are the ones who struggle the most with burnout. And I don't usually I didn't used to use the word empath. I used a different word. but I feel like everybody kind of gets empath, and empath is like you're giving, giving, giving to everyone, and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: you feel everything they feel and everything they experience. And so you want to fix it for them, it just becomes so unsustainable. You carry the weight of the world on your shoulders because you're taking care of everyone else Tiffany: Hmm. Laura Brenner: before yourself. And then it goes to like you even see you feel bad for the patient. You you're giving them an injection. You feel so bad for them. Cause all you do is how much they don't want to get it. And you're so worried about that that you can't even see how much you're actually helping them. It's not that you don't care. It's like you care too much. Tiffany: Can we pause on this for a second? Because Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: I recently, within like the past month or so, I went to my first dental related thing. I went to a conference. It was the Texas American Academy of General Dentistry and the focus was endo. And I went to talk about Dentor Match and to spread the word. And my overriding thought the entire conference was I'm so glad. My job isn't to go to work and hurt people every day anymore. that was the thing. they are talking about what happens when you can't get a patient numb, or what happens when like a hypochlorite accident, even like them talking about cold testing. I was like, my God, I'm so glad I don't have to cold test teeth anymore. Like I hated that. And I don't think we think about it because. As human beings, as a species, I think we are inquisitely, exquisitely attuned to other people's discomfort. And I think we are supposed to respond in a way that stops hurting other people. Laura Brenner: Mm. Tiffany: And I think that we don't consider that as dentists, that every single injection we give, every cold test, every time we walk into an operatory and a patient is fearful of us. we have to override our instinct to not do that thing. And it and and that's emotionally exhausting, I think. Laura Brenner: It's it's it is the I think it's the downfall to us, those of us who struggle with the burnout. And it comes from such a good place. It really comes from wanting to help other people and and really genuinely caring about them. It's just almost like we're going overboard. And I wanna address your point about people being cutthroat, is I also wanna believe and I think I do believe this at this point that there are Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: the people who are cutthroat and just don't care. And when I used to be in dentistry, I was like, how do you not feel horrible that you perfed that root canal? Like, how are you going on with your life? Because to me, I it's like, I can't go on anymore. I feel so bad for that person, you know? And Tiffany: Mm. Laura Brenner: I used to think that the people that didn't get completely upset and devastated by that stuff were delusional and didn't care. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And so obviously there are some people in dentistry who don't care. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: and they just don't. And it's every industry, every profession has it. It's very sad. It is what it is. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: But the delusional part, there are people who care about their patients as much as we do. They just have better boundaries. They just know they're doing their best. When something goes wrong, it's easier for them to trust that there's a solution and that they'll find it and that it'll be okay. And it's easier for them to face conflict because of whatever experiences they've had in life that have shaped this Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: perception in them. They just have better boundaries. And so they're the ones who can do this work, they can get stressed out by it, but they're not letting it devastate their lives. And they still care. And and that's I think we all can see the world that way. Maybe not. I I've I have grown a lot of boundaries for myself. I don't think I could have done them in dentistry. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: But I'm so much better now at letting people own their stuff and not carrying it on my shoulders. Because in a way, this is gonna be a controversial statement, especially if it's taken out of context. Our burnout is our fault. Tiffany: a hundred percent. Yeah. Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: I I looking back, I know that I could have chosen to rest and instead I took another C E. You know, I I could have chosen to decide that it was good enough and not stress out over that one failed whatever it was. do you think it is a personality trait or do you think it is cultivatable? You know, this thing that you said that that we are us and then these people that can handle it. Laura Brenner: Yeah. I think it's something that we can grow. And you know, I think we recently spoke about the energy leadership assessment that I do is like similar to a personality assessment, but different. And and if you're looking at a personality assessment, it's usually gonna say like this is the way you are. You're an introvert or an extrovert. That's not gonna change. But if this is a different language where It's not looking at how you are. It's looking at how you see the world. And that can change. And it takes a lot of work. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's the it's the most valuable and it's so life changing because truly I look at my life now. And when I get upset about something, if I can see the so many times it's a burden I don't need to carry. It's still really hard, but it's like when I can see it's a burden that I don't need to carry, then I can practice relieving myself of that stress and that burden and the story and all of it. So I think the people in dentistry who are in that category where yeah, they still get stressed, but they know how to stand ha how to handle it. I think either there are segment of the people who started that way and then They see all that can go wrong in dentistry. And so it shifts them down into that burden, I'm so worried all the time, kind of mentality. or you could start out as feeling like this is scary, it's kind of burdened, but I'm but I'm hopeful. And you can either grow, so you could you could shift away into that. I'm more scared because I know all the things that could go wrong and I'm gonna always worry. Or it's like a fork in the road. You could be like, No, I'm gonna work on, and I think a lot of people do this. I'm gonna work on my boundaries and I'm gonna, you know, have a thicker skin and I'm just I'm just gonna always know I did my best. And there are people who can do that. I could never do that in dentistry. I tried to change myself a lot, as I know you did. Being outside of dentistry, having a different relationship to my work and different dynamics of the world that I live in, dentistry teaches us that everything is our fault. They told us in dental school, once you touch a tooth, you own it. How am I gonna ever get rid of feeling like I ruined someone else's life based on that, right? But if I'm talking to someone and I'm just having a conversation. and they're having their autonomy, it's so much easier for me to be like, they get to choose, I don't need to own it. So I have been able to really grow that and change and it's so freeing. So yeah, long answer to I think that it is a perception that can be practiced and grown in the right environment. Tiffany: Love that. I I I like what you said about the environment allowing things because definitely now that I've left the perception has changed where when you're in it and you're so burnt out and it's so close, you can't see the forest through the trees and it's this I think it would have been nearly impossible if even a little bit, you know, I don't I like to have healed what I was feeling in the same environment. Like I just I I think for me I had to leave. Like you I was talking to another dentist recently where it was like you can't cure the burnout or you can't cure PTSD if the war is still going on. if you are in a bomb shelter and there are still missiles and crashes and and explosions, like you can't you can't heal the PTSD until you remove yourself. And for me that was certainly the case. Laura Brenner: Yeah, and then it it sounds like it's not PTST, it's T S T. I had to think about how to say that because it's like you're Tiffany: Yeah, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. Had it Laura Brenner: so no, I think I said T, PTSD, not P I but you get my point. But Tiffany: Yeah. Yes, totally. Laura Brenner: yeah, that's such a good point. And I always I do believe that there are some people who can fix that within themselves. inside of dentistry because people do it. I f 100% believe that and I love that for you and I wish I could have because trust me my life would have been so much easier. So much easier if I could have done that Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yes. Laura Brenner: in dentistry. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: But I also wanna recognize that some of us it's just we need to get out of the environment to be able to grow that within ourselves. And that's okay. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I I listened to a podcast and there was this guy, Dr. Aluk Kanoja, and he has this theory of the quarter life crisis. And it like so resonates. Have you heard about this? No. Okay. So it he what he says is there is a quarter life crisis where the beginning part of your life, you do what people tell you to do. It is pro-social. It's how you learn to live within a community. You listen to your parents. You learn the rules of your culture, all these things. And then there gets to be a point in your life that around, mid early to mid-20s, where you are supposed to developmentally start to make your own decisions. And you realize, okay, this thing that my parents told me that I should want, I actually don't want. And there is supposed to be this point of divergence. And and so he talks about when you are in a profession like medicine, because his parents were both doctors, he is a doctor. he says, You're not allowed to make that divergence. You have already invested so much, you have chosen this path, you are stuck on it. And he's like, that's where he sees a lot. Of the problem is that when you're not allowed to kind of go down another path, he said, you know, the normal thing is you separate from your family of origin. Like for him, he said he went to India to find himself. And and you're supposed to be able to separate. And you're supposed to be able to find your own thing. And and this, I've spent so much time thinking about this because I think that is what. So many people in dentistry are are experiencing this path was chosen before they were allowed to actually make it. to me, I didn't start making my own decisions until mid-30s, late 30s. Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: this is the first time where I was like, this isn't mine. these things that I wanted, these are things that I was told that I should want. And I recently had this thing where I started talking or Journaling about manifestation. And it was the craziest thing. I don't know how to manifest or dream outside of what I'm supposed to want. it is hard for me to think of things to manifest that are outside be successful, earn this much money. I just thought it was so interesting that it is now a practice of mine. To learn how to manifest. Laura Brenner: that and what's funny about that is I feel like one of the keys to changing is to allow yourself to dream. And I had very many years where I wouldn't even allow myself to dream, but then I was sort of surrounded by people who were dreamers and I learned to dream and that sort of helped me build the confidence that it's okay to dream. As Dennis, I see it over and over. We don't allow ourselves to dream. And that stifles your creativity. It stifles your possibilities. I don't, it's like the I feel like I've figured out a lot of the dynamics about what happens to us, as I think you are too as well. It's like I have not figured out why don't we allow ourselves to dream as Dennis. I think we're Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: I think maybe we're afraid. Even like I wouldn't even allow myself to see. a dream to dream to and let me see it. I was hiding that from myself, not just everyone around me. I wouldn't allow myself to see myself dreaming. Because it was like, I don't know why. Was I embarrassed that I would fail or worried I would fail. And then it's the weirdest dynamic. I haven't figured that one out. Tiffany: Let's speculate. What do you think it is? Laura Brenner: I think it has to be that we're s we are so afraid of failing that we don't even want to acknowledge. But it was like I couldn't even allow myself to be like, maybe I would like doing real estate or maybe I would like being a yoga teacher. I couldn't even get to that because but it I'm more curious about why I couldn't do that for myself. Then Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: I get it, why I wouldn't want anyone else to see it. But why wouldn't I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: want myself to see it? I think we just Maybe it goes to what you said is like we are the good little girls and boys that our parents and culture and everyone told us to be that we don't even know how to do that. And maybe we're just hiding that from ourselves. What do you think? Tiffany: I think Alright. experience of life has taught us so linearly. You know, first I get into college and then I get good grades and then I go into dental school and then I become an associate and then I owner and like Our field of the future is so narrow. I think it's like we don't, it's like a muscle we don't know how to use, that we've never cultivated the muscle of imagination or cultivated the muscle like we're so should people. And I think our culture being dentists, we work within tenths of a millimeter. Like there's no room for creativity in that. And I think it's just everything that we've done so far has trained us to be that way. And that has trained us that that leads to success. I don't know. Laura Brenner: Yeah, I love that. I think we've cracked the code. And then and then the next step is to just let yourself practice dreaming. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: Cause it does open your world and and stop telling yourself that it's pointless. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And then practice that. Cause then you're gonna open up. Tiffany: Yeah. It's so hard. even just like I'm good at the gratitude. I can come up with ten in no time. And I'm good at the to-do list and I'm good at the intention. But it's like the manifestation, like it really takes effort still, you know? Permission to want beyond what is reasonable. Laura Brenner: Yeah, and you and you're allowed to do the things, whether Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: it's dream, whether it's try something different. It's I it's funny because I look back at my life and even after college, I was like, I wanna take a year off and I moved to Spain. And I deferred dental school. They let me defer a year. So I I got accepted, had a year off, I moved to Spain because I was like, I wanna do something crazy. So it's funny to look back because I've always seen myself as such a rule follower. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: But there's always been this little part of me that's like, I want to do something different. I want to do something crazy, but still safe. You know? And so Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Laura Brenner: I think that it's fun to have that in your life. And why not? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. What has surprised you most about human beings in doing the work? Like what did you not believe before? And Laura Brenner: Wow. Tiffany: in doing your work you have learned to be true. That has been surprising. Laura Brenner: I didn't think I always made the excuse that work is work and nobody really likes work. But I think there was always that little dream inside of me. Like that's why I chose dentistry. I really chose dentistry because I was like, I'm gonna love this. And so I think we get I'm gonna use this phrase again, beaten down by the world telling us that work is work. And even from the time we're in school, it's like, summer's over, sad, I have to go back to school. it's Sunday, sad I have to go back to school. It's like it's constantly drilled into us that we don't like work. and I I think there was in the back of my mind and I think that's what secretly drove me was like, I wanna love what I do. And now I really believe that because I experience it, you can find a way of impacting the world while you're impacting yourself and love what you do. And I think it always was something I wouldn't again, wouldn't allow myself to give myself permission to dream about having. And so it's just I want that for other people because life is too short. And I used to always tell myself, I don't have to suffer my way through this life for it to be valuable. And I think that's what it's like, why can't I just have fun? Why can't I have fun in this life? Why does it have to be so heavy and hard? And it doesn't have to be. So I think that's just the freeing realization. that I've learned and and and if I could do it, tr I'm as stuck as any and I'm sure you were too. I am I was as stuck as any dentist person can ever imagine themselves. And so if I could could do this, I believe that other people can too. It's just you have to find the way to do it safely. Tiffany: We've talked off camera recently. I am still struggling with that. That that Knowing that I don't have to wear myself until I can't go anymore to be valuable. we all I I talk about it in my social media too. I I have really weird sleep patterns. And I think part of it is ADHD. Part of it I love being awake when people are sleeping. But I think part of it is I still believe that in order to be meaningful, I have to struggle. And I think part of my Laura Brenner: Basically. Tiffany: staying up late is I'm grinding until I can't grind anymore. And that's what makes me valuable. Laura Brenner: Well, I still have to work on money is what makes me valuable, right? And so we still have these like inner core beliefs that are always here that we have to work on. But I wonder what if you played with a mantra that that's similar, maybe you use the word struggle instead of suffering. Like I literally would say to myself, I don't have to suffer my wife through this life for it to be valuable. So what if yours is you said that with the struggle. Tiffany: Yeah. Laura Brenner: 'Cause the more you say it, you're gonna s believe it. And I can't wait till you are years out past this like I am, and it feels so even more free and some of those things that are still here, people don't realize. They think that when you quit that everything's fixed, there's Tiffany: Mm. Laura Brenner: still a grieving process to go through. And I can't wait till you get to the other side 'cause Tiffany: It yeah, it Laura Brenner: It's even better. Tiffany: it is It's been so wonderful. And I know that it's just started. I mean, I only gave it up really two a year and a half ago. Like closed my practice a year two years ago, left dentistry a year and a half ago. So it's still very fresh. And but man, it's so great. It's so great. It's so great. Laura Brenner: But it's so great. And you know what else? We always think that we need to be fixed sooner. So Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: a year and a half out, it's just gonna shed off of you as the years go on. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It it is. Laura Brenner: But it is such a good feeling. It was like a cloud was lifted off, wasn't it? Tiffany: It it was like my world went from black black and white to color. I did not know how much of life I was missing. And I had to relearn it. It didn't happen immediately. I would, I used to love taking my boys to the pool. And this this summer, I would take the boys to the pool and I had forgotten how to enjoy it. You know, I'm sitting there looking at the clock. I'm sitting on the side. I'm like, how long do I have to stay here for it to count? instead of getting in the pool and flashing around and enjoying it's like I had to relearn that. And so we kept going over the summer. And by the end, I was enjoying it more. But still, it's like my brain is so focused on productivity. Like, this isn't productive. This, like, this is I'm not getting anything done. I should be doing something. And and I still catch myself. having to say there's nothing you have to do right now. this is the this is the job is to spend time with your children. this is the job to be present. But it's like I spent so much time, the practice, the practice, I gotta see patients, I gotta plan, I gotta look at reports, da da da da. That when I'm not in that mode, I feel unworthy of love. Yeah. Laura Brenner: Mm-hmm. Me too. It's still 15 years later, and it's just in the last two, three years that I'm unpacking how dentist-y we really are, which is like, I'm a hard worker, I'm always achiev I need to achieve, I need to get this result. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And it is there again, can I walk through this life with a little more peace and Tiffany: Okay. Laura Brenner: not need those things to prove my value or my worth. And it's constant work, but it's that work is so beautiful. It's just really it it's freedom. Tiffany: It is. What did we cover not cover that you wanna touch on? Laura Brenner: I think we need to have another we have to have lots more talks. Tiffany: Yes. Let's do it. I'm happy to have a standing appointment with you every other week or whatever. Cause I I think that we ha have both collectively gained so much knowledge in this kind of work outside the dentistry. And I think it's interesting as hell. Like I love this. I love this. Laura Brenner: Me too. Obsessed. I'm obsessed. And you know what else? I think I'm it's so nice to be like, I'm good at this. Like I never Tiffany: Yes. And Laura Brenner: felt, even though I think I was good at dentistry, I never felt like I was good at it. And I feel like I get this work that I do. Like it's just I could I get to do the stuff that just is so fascinating to me. Tiffany: And I wanna say you are wonderful at what you do. I I am so glad you came to my life when you did. You have been Someone that I'm so glad is in my court and you have answered my calls and you have answered questions and it's just the beginning of our relationship. I'm so excited. Laura Brenner: I know, I'm so excited too. And something that I think is so funny is in 2011 I wrote Ten Reasons Your Dennis Probably Hates YouTube blog and you grew your community through what was yours called? Tiffany: Nineteen reasons your dentist hates you too. Yeah. I think I got the idea from you. I was listening to a Laura Brenner: Like Tiffany: podcast. I not like, but I was listening to a podcast and taking a walk and someone mentioned that. And I was like, my God, that's so good. And I went home and I wrote it, not knowing it was your original idea, but it was from Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: from you through the through the yeah. Laura Brenner: Full circle, subconsciously. Yeah, I know. We see we we've experienced so many similar things and it's really nice to know that do you remember the first time we ever connected? Do you I don't even know if you know what it was. Somebody Tiffany: I don't. Tell me. Laura Brenner: shared that post, I think, or one of your posts about quitting dentistry and dental matches. Tiffany: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Laura Brenner: And I went on and I and they made a comment. It wasn't rude, it was just a comment like I don't even remember. And I went on and I said, I trust that she's doing exactly what she wants to do. And you replied to me and you were like, Thank you so much. That means so much. And then we didn't connect till later. But I remember you because we don't see people talking about what we talk about as openly as often. So I'm glad we're connected and I'm looking forward to more of these philosophical conversations. Tiffany: Yes. Yes. So where can people find you? What do you do? this plug your stuff, man. Go ahead. Laura Brenner: Okay, okay, I'm plugging. so I have what I do is I I became a career coach to help other dentists working through the pains that I experienced. So I help dentists who are burnt out create you know, redesign their dental careers. It could be total career change, it could be Working part-time and doing it differently. Sometimes it's helping people decide that they shouldn't buy a practice, or that if they want to, that's great. So I am never here to try to get someone to quit dentistry or buy a practice. I'm here to get you to do what you want. because we just don't have that. So it's very much redesigning your career oriented. And I love the side gigs. So I have a Facebook group called Dentist Side Gigs. and I'm on Instagram under DR Lolabies. Tiffany: Everybody check out, especially like especially sidekigs. That's the question I get the most is well, what do I do if I don't do dentistry? And I think you can get a lot of inspiration if you go and check out that Facebook group. and thank you for being you. Thank you for being the pioneer of this kind of work. I I think that what we do is very brave and Laura Brenner: Yeah. Tiffany: and so thank you. Laura Brenner: Thank you. Thank you for having me on and thank you for acknowledging me. Tiffany: Yes. I I absolutely I I think you and I can change the world. So let's do this again. Awesome. A revolution. Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. Laura Brenner: Let's do it. Let's let's start a revolution. I'm ready. Thanks, Tiffany.