Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Vanderpump Rules and Co-parenting in Hollywood

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Vanderpump Rules and Co-parenting in Hollywood · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

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  Speaker 1: Every day you make around 35,000 choices. What to wear?
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  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.
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  Speaker 3: When you're on the road, when you're on the go,
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  Speaker 3: Juicy Scoop is the show to know.
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  Speaker 4: She talks Hollywood tales for real life. Mr.
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  Speaker 3: You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one
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  Speaker 3: tabloid real life podcast.
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  Speaker 4: Listen in, listen up.
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  Speaker 5: Woo, woo.
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  Speaker 3: Heather MacDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Happy Thanksgiving. Okay, there's some hot topic update. I'm sure
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: you know what I'm going to get into. And then
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  Speaker 2: I have a great interview I'm excited to share with.
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  Speaker 3: All of you. So first of all, you've now heard
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: the news. Maybe you haven't. That's why you're here on
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Juicy Scoop.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Vanderpump announced that it is coming back, but with an
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  Speaker 2: all new cast. Nobody that we know. I had heard
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: so many things leading up to this. I had heard
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: that they were meeting with new people. I was at
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Vanderpump and a bartender told me I'm auditioning for it.
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  Speaker 2: I also heard that they were doing filming with new people,
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  Speaker 2: but with James Kennedy.
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  Speaker 3: However, James Kennedy.
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  Speaker 2: along with Ariana and Lala and Sheena and many people,
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  Speaker 2: posted within hours of the news that they are grateful
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: for Vanderpump Rules or excited for the next chapter. They
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: had slideshows of their favorite photos and videos from the
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  Speaker 2: last decade.
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  Speaker 3: Or however long they were on.
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  Speaker 2: I may or may not have knowledge that this was coming.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that was a fair thing to do
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  Speaker 2: as producers to let these, you know, icons of Vanderpump
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  Speaker 2: rules know that this announcement was coming and, um, so
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  Speaker 2: that they could not be blindsided, gather their photos and
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  Speaker 2: whatever together so that their announcement can be the way
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  Speaker 2: they want.
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  Speaker 3: It to be.
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  Speaker 2: And, um, So this will be interesting. I mean, this
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  Speaker 2: is what we have complained about, that it has changed.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: They're not still waiters. A lot of people say how
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: we don't like the new roadie. How could the new
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Vanderpump keep our interest? I think this is a genius
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: move on the side of the producers because so many
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: of them are friends with the Valley cast and Jax
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and Brittany have broken up. That's going to be very
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  Speaker 2: juicy to watch. It's sad, but it's going to be
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  Speaker 2: super intriguing. People like these shows because they can relate.
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  Speaker 2: They can relate to parenting. They can relate to co-parenting.
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  Speaker 2: They can relate to breakups and relationships changing. And The
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  Speaker 2: Valley has been so open and honest about that. We
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  Speaker 2: like their new friends that we are.
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  Speaker 3: Not familiar with.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Kristen Doty just announced she's pregnant. She's engaged and she's pregnant.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: And good for Kristen Doty. She was fired along with
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  Speaker 2: Stassi and Jackson Brittany a few years ago. Stassi's off
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  Speaker 2: doing great on her own, doing her own thing. She's
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: got her own show coming out. She's going to be
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: on the Vanderpump Villa as well. And then now Kristen
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  Speaker 2: is really on the show that is probably the most
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  Speaker 2: anticipated Bravo show this year, The Valley. And Brittany and
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  Speaker 2: Stassi and Lala are really great friends. They're mom friends
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  Speaker 2: as well as being old friends. Their kids go to
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  Speaker 2: the same school. There's going to be activities and things.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure they're making many appearances. Also, this means for
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  Speaker 2: the Valley producers that they're not probably going to be
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: playing hardball about, hey, Tom Schwartz, want to come to
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: this party over at Jack's? condo, or do you want
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  Speaker 2: to come to Cruz's fourth birthday party? We'll pay you
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  Speaker 2: this amount. They want to stay in it. And they
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  Speaker 2: really are friends. Um, Schwartz's condo is very close to Jack's,
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  Speaker 2: which is very close in the Valley to his restaurant
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  Speaker 2: and also to Brittany and Cruz's house now. So I think, um,
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  Speaker 2: it was a I don't think they were, you know,
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  Speaker 2: they knew this was going to be an issue. We
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  Speaker 2: saw the way it ended. We knew that real friendships
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  Speaker 2: were not what they once were. Many of these players
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  Speaker 2: were not hanging out with each other anymore and really
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  Speaker 2: didn't want to, like Ariana and Tom Sandoval. So I
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  Speaker 2: think we're going to see many of them make appearances.
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  Speaker 2: And then as that show grows, it could really evolve
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  Speaker 2: into something really juicy.
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  Speaker 3: In the meantime, I wish them all the best. with
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  Speaker 3: all their endeavors. They are all famous.
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  Speaker 2: They all have huge followings and different businesses and streams
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  Speaker 2: of income. So it will be a really interesting thing
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  Speaker 2: to see what happens with Bravo because as I said,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: it looks like that mini FanFest was not a huge hit.
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  Speaker 2: And will BravoCon happen in September or next year? whenever
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  Speaker 2: will it happen? Will it happen in Vegas? If we
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  Speaker 2: don't have the, if we don't have New Jersey happening
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  Speaker 2: with those, you know, icons so that we can actually
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  Speaker 2: be interested in the panels, if they just come on
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  Speaker 2: and tell about the old shit that they've been saying
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  Speaker 2: at every city winery in a live show, I don't
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  Speaker 2: think that's that interesting. It's only going to be interesting
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  Speaker 2: because we're watching it. So if we don't have New
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  Speaker 2: Jersey to talk about the OGs of Roni to talk about, um,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. Is there enough? And now the Vanderpump
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  Speaker 2: kids aren't going to be there. I still call them kids.
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  Speaker 2: And if they're only one season in, I don't know
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  Speaker 2: how super interested we're going to be. I mean, it
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  Speaker 2: took us years to get to know the cast. But
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: as far as the new cast, I wish them the best.
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  Speaker 2: I think this is kind of exciting. What made Vanderpump
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  Speaker 2: so relatable was these people were real friends. They were
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  Speaker 2: really struggling actors. They said yes to this reality show,
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  Speaker 2: hoping that it would lead to bigger things.
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  Speaker 3: And you know what it did? It really did. But
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  Speaker 3: that's what the LA life was like 15 years ago.
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  Speaker 2: Does it still reflect that with social media and ways
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  Speaker 2: for people to instantly kind of become famous via Tik
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  Speaker 2: TOK or, or Instagram. I don't know, but I think
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  Speaker 2: it's a really smart move. And, um, for, for the
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  Speaker 2: production company of both the Valley and Vanderpump rules and
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: for Lisa Vanderpump. And so let's see, you know, let's
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  Speaker 2: see what happens. Um, you know, DJ, DJ James Kennedy
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  Speaker 2: has a huge career already doing really well with, um, DJing.
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  Speaker 2: So there could be almost little mini, um, reality shows,
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  Speaker 2: if not on TV, on different, you know, YouTube or whatever,
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  Speaker 2: where we really, where these people kind of put their
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  Speaker 2: own production companies together and follow their own lives and
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  Speaker 2: their own friends.
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  Speaker 3: And so I'm really, I'm excited to see where all
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  Speaker 3: of this goes. All right, you guys.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I want to remind you that a lot of people
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: will say, gosh, you know, I wish I could listen
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: to Juicy Scoop without ads.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: You can.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: If you're listening to this on Apple, that is what
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: the Apple subscription is for. You will get all the
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday shows ad-free as well as all of
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: the back episodes of the Tuesdays and Thursdays show.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: That is different. Apple subscription offers you that. And Patreon.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: offers you more of a community in talking and sharing,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: which is even going to get bigger. So those are
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the differences. And a lot of people belong to both
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: for those reasons. So I wanted to explain that. And
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: you just do that Apple subscription. You'll get this whole
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: thing ad-free. And now I am going to share something
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  Speaker 2: that was shared on my Friday paid platform, which I
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: will share now.
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  Speaker 3: It got a lot of conversation going.
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  Speaker 2: It was really positive for the two interview guests that
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  Speaker 2: were part of it, Dr.
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  Speaker 3: Drew and Gage Edward.
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  Speaker 2: And people could relate to it as far as co-parenting,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: past relationships, moving forward, healing oneself, but also when there's
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: been many years of where you've been portrayed or discussed
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  Speaker 2: on a big public platform and you haven't responded until now.
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  Speaker 2: I think that was really important. And I think it's going...
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  Speaker 2: It's going really well. And you probably will have some
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: questions after this. And I've been receiving the questions since
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  Speaker 2: I posted it on Friday's Patreon. And I will be
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  Speaker 2: addressing those questions and curiosities on tomorrow's Patreon, which you
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  Speaker 2: can get at heathermcdonald.net. So there you go. Have a
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  Speaker 2: great Thanksgiving. And here's my interview with Dr. Drew Pinsky
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  Speaker 2: and Gage Edward. Hello, and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well,
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  Speaker 2: this is gonna be a real juicy one. It's something
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  Speaker 2: that we've talked a lot about on the show. You
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  Speaker 2: hear a lot of people talk about narcissism and how
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  Speaker 2: many people are narcissistic. We hear they talk about it
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  Speaker 2: on reality shows, everywhere. And also how hard it might
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  Speaker 2: be if you are co-parenting with who you believe might
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  Speaker 2: be a narcissist or at least have many of the traits.
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  Speaker 2: So I am here with my friend of 15 years,
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  Speaker 2: Gage Edwards. who he is a father and he is co-parenting,
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  Speaker 2: which anyone knows is never even the best situation. It's
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  Speaker 2: not necessarily easy. And then we're also here with my
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  Speaker 2: dear friend, Dr. Drew, who has written a book. On narcissism.
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  Speaker 3: That book came out about 15 years ago too, right?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, about that. We saw it coming.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So what was it called? What is it called?
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  Speaker 4: It was called The Mirror Effect, but it was built...
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  Speaker 4: Do you know how that happened, that book? We did
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  Speaker 4: research on celebrities. It was the only published research in history.
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  Speaker 4: There was all this speculation about celebrities and narcissism. No
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  Speaker 4: one had ever studied them. Well, because a celebrity came
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  Speaker 4: on our radio show every night, we gave them a
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  Speaker 4: narcissistic inventory for like 250 of them. And we were
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  Speaker 4: able to document that, lo and behold, people that are
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  Speaker 4: musicians and comedians and particularly reality show participants, high, high
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  Speaker 4: levels of narcissism.
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  Speaker 3: Very interesting.
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  Speaker 6: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So, Gage, tell us a little bit about your background
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  Speaker 2: and why this definitely pertains to what Dr.
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  Speaker 5: Drew wrote about. Well, I think that in the last
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  Speaker 5: few years, you know, so I was in a relationship
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  Speaker 5: for over a decade. at eight years, we had our daughter,
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  Speaker 5: who's now eight years old, two years after she was born,
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  Speaker 5: the relationship just disintegrated. And in the five years of
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: sort of the aftermath of that decade long, highly public relationship,
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  Speaker 5: there was a lot of obviously processing trying to, I
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  Speaker 5: had also run his business, you know, created multiple streams
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: of income together, uh, product lines, all of these things,
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  Speaker 5: we were completely enmeshed and, um, was reliant on that.
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  Speaker 5: And when the relationship abruptly ended one night, um, it
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: took a couple more months of business not working out together,
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: obviously in hindsight. And, um, It just got to a
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  Speaker 5: breaking point where that also wouldn't work. So then I
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: was thrust into the last five years of recreating who
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: I was at 33, starting over, fighting for custody. She
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  Speaker 5: had lived for her two years in our family home
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  Speaker 5: and then it was the trying to sort it out
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  Speaker 5: without legal intervention and then defending myself through all of that.
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  Speaker 5: I think that there were two key elements in the
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: failure of that decade long relationship. And she was, she
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: was the impetus to one of them because it was
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  Speaker 5: highly documented and shown on TV.
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  Speaker 4: And all of it.
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  Speaker 5: And I think I was a little bit blind and
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  Speaker 5: disoriented in that I didn't see what was going on.
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  Speaker 5: And to be fair, I don't think that he changed.
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  Speaker 5: I think I changed. And I think that's what led
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  Speaker 5: to the end of the relationship because suddenly The way
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  Speaker 5: I was spoken to daily, the way things were handled,
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  Speaker 5: all of which were on a TV show already. It's
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  Speaker 5: not like, oh my gosh, something morphed and changed. It
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  Speaker 5: wasn't that. It was that now there were a set
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  Speaker 5: of eyes. And both of you as parents, your kids
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  Speaker 5: are mimicking all behavior. They're mimicking how you speak, all
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  Speaker 5: of it.
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to interrupt you because there's already a lot
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: going on. A lot, a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I just want to say one thing about the
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: TV show, which still you can watch for free on
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: all these streamers or you buy the streamers.
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  Speaker 4: And I don't know anything about anything. I come as
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: a virgin.
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  Speaker 3: So I'll just tell you.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: So his ex-partner was on a TV show for many,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: many years.
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  Speaker 4: From a Juicy Scoops standpoint, isn't it crazy how no
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  Speaker 4: relationships ever survive reality cameras?
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't.
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  Speaker 4: It's just crazy.
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  Speaker 3: It really doesn't.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: And part of what you were saying made me think,
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Not only are you seeing things through the eyes of
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: your daughter, but you're literally seeing things as they occur
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: on TV. Because it's that reliving and revivifying of things
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: that I hear people talk about when their relationships fall
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  Speaker 4: apart because of TV. It's like, oh, we dealt with
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: that a long time ago and here it is back again.
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  Speaker 4: And I can't deny it anymore.
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  Speaker 2: And just one of the scenes that I recall. from
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: the show after their daughter was born was, you know,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: his ex-partner was getting very heated about something, which is
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: what made him a memorable reality show character.
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  Speaker 4: Always, right? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And, but this is your partner and your co-parent and everything.
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  Speaker 2: And he's speaking to Gage and he's like, if you
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: messed up this one thing, like, what is the point
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  Speaker 2: of having you? What is the value of having you?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: And I was like, It wasn't just that.
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  Speaker 5: It was that if I have people taking care of
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  Speaker 5: our daughter and you're not doing this in the business,
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  Speaker 5: what is your value to me?
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: And that was as the parent of, I don't know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: she's probably six or nine somewhere months old at this
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: point where it's just like, you know, you asked me
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: before about that. And it's like, what did you think
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: in that moment? And I thought in that moment was
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: this is I'm already here mentally. I'm already thinking this,
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: but I've got cameras on me. And these are parts
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: of the end. This isn't sustainable.
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: It's actually a really heartbreaking story.
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: It's terrible because it's also something she can then go watch.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: I feel what he's feeling.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I also feel because this was, you know, we really
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: hadn't seen a relationship between two men raising a daughter,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: which I thought is great. Why I saw that and
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: why it's been in my head for many years. is
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: because the audience of your show and his subsequent show,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: which is just a radio show with video component, is
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: the audience is, again, predominantly female. And it doesn't seem
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: like anybody sees how hypocritical that is. If we saw
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: a man speaking to his partner, who is a woman,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: who is the main caregiver of the child.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Oh, boy.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: We would be horrified.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: We watch a housewife and the guy's like, get your
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: own coffee. And that guy is crucified, divorce that, you know, whatever.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And I, and I, so I think that's like an
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: interesting element of two of just like in the perception
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: of watching these people's lives for entertainment, sitting back and
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: being like, Oh, I never really thought of it like that.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: And how unfair that is.
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: What I have thought is that with the people that
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: are in our lives now, My relationship now are two kids.
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: That kind of personality and the way that is sort
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: of spoken to me indirectly through another means of media,
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  Speaker 5: I would never have someone like that in my life.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: You would not be allowed to.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Be my friend in that time period. Let's hear Drew's
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: analysis a little bit.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: I need a lot more information. And some of you
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: may not be able to give me. Sure. Because I
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: don't want you to divulge anything that would hurt anybody
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: or be uncomfortable for you or anything. But you did
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: say that one night it collapsed. Was there a discovery
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: or something?
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  Speaker 5: I had started seeing a therapist and a therapist that
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: in particular works with gay men and was referred by
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: another gay friend couple that had gone through some stuff.
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: And I had been seeing him for probably four or
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: five weeks. We were in a tough spot. I think
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: a very transitional time that. the relationship was morphing into
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: something that I also was not okay with. And so
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: I started seeing a therapist sort of talk through.
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  Speaker 4: You understand that's vague, right? What's vague? It was morphing
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: into something I was not okay with.
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: It just wasn't the, it wasn't the, it wasn't what
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: I signed up for. It was on a personal level.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: You're, you're, you're using code. I think I understand the code.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I want to out the code.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: But your code is probably, you know, Right. But that's
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: just another problem here, too. OK. Right. More than just personality.
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: Well, I don't know what that problem is.
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: Was there infidelity problem?
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: I think that there was. It has been said.
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: Yes or no. Was that part of the collapse that night?
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: Or was that where it might have led to?
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Like it wasn't your traditional family view of what you,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: the trajectory of your life was more similar.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: To what you were raised in.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And this was going in a path, even though you're gay,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: going into a path that you were not.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: You didn't want. I didn't want.
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: And you know, it was said really loudly after, which
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: I think.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: And I don't know anything about anything.
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but I think that it was said after, you know,
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: very publicly that a lot of people have the perception
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: that I had cheated in this relationship.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: Right. And I had not. What I see, what I
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: hear from you is this extreme codependency, right? And did
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: your therapist put names to what you were struggling with?
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: Did he or she tell you kind of how to
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: understand or have you learned since?
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: Well, what I had said is that I need basically
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: a break and we're in this for over.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Because of mistreatment? Yes.
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: And I needed to sort of back away for a
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: second to get some perspective and clarity of I can't
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: be pummeled and just constantly. And I, you know, to
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: be honest, I didn't want to be intimate anymore.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah. He spoke about that.
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: I didn't, my feeling was, I don't like how this
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: is going and I can't even become intimate with you,
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: even though we've been together for a decade.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: And by the way, the, you described your new friends as,
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: in really interesting language that suggest actual intimacy. I don't
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: mean physical intimacy, I mean emotional intimacy. So you, for
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: some reason, had an intimacy problem. You were attracted to
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: things that were non-intimate but were intense and were dramatic
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: and interesting and fun and all those things, but not intimate.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: And as things started unraveling, it was not working for
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: you and then it collapsed, right? But you stayed together
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: for six months?
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: This all happened in the course of the final year okay.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: But you were still together working together trying to.
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah we were intensely working together we were.
• 19:57
  Speaker 7: Trying to make things work or we were trying to
• 19:59
  Speaker 7: working as in we physically worked together a lot of
• 20:01
  Speaker 7: people described it as it was a much better business
• 20:03
  Speaker 7: relationship and it was seemed transactional were you trying to
• 20:06
  Speaker 7: unravel the I was not he was leaving I felt
• 20:11
  Speaker 7: like it was, that's my feeling.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: I don't want to out any stuff here. So what
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: is it? So it's the sort of the mistreatment that
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: we're talking about. Yeah.
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: And I no longer felt, you know what it really was?
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: Is I no longer felt safe and I no longer
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: felt protected in the physical relationship of it all. And
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: then you compound that with now you've got a one
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: and two year old, not yet looking at you, but
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: soaking everything up and learning language and learning body language
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: and learning My longer term fear was that I'm trying
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: to teach you to be a strong, confident woman. And
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: she's going to look at me and be like, yeah,
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: but what if the television show, for instance, continued? How
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: did you tell me that I should be a strong,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: confident woman when he's saying what he says about you daily?
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: And that's since continued for five years.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Which is a classic reason why a lot of women
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: feel they have to leave once their child does get
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: to a certain age.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: Because they see it.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: No, in real life. Like why, why women leave?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Because they have that aha moment where they're like, how
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: can I raise my daughter.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: When she, when she sees what I'm putting up with.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Or they get too.
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: Or I have friends that got too deep. They realized it,
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: they didn't do anything. And now the kids are 10, teens,
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: whatever it is. And they're like, it's just a few
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: more years to get them launched into college. But, I
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: also wonder, seeing the effects of that, I can now
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: see that in those older kids that they have. Like, okay,
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: and now do you notice who her boyfriend is? That
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: daughter's boyfriend? Does it look a lot like your relationship?
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: And it does. And that's what people do. That's what
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: humans do. They repeat the patterns of the past. Especially
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: when they're negative and traumatizing. It's the opposite of what
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: you would think, but that's how we work as humans.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: And in a way, I felt like at two.
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: if this does fall apart, it actually is kind of
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: an ideal age because really what is her recollection memory
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: of us being in the same house and now two houses. Anyways,
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: so that's what, you know, sort of led to it
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: and where I felt like, again, it just, it was
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: that those set of eyes were an issue for me.
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: And in the, in the aftermath of five years later,
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: I could not be the dad that I am today
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: in the same environment.
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: We all like to think we've got a good eye
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: for a winning move. But when it comes to property,
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: it's about seeing the bigger picture. More space. A shorter commute.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Somewhere near the sea.
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: On daft.ie, you can explore standout homes for sale across
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: South Dublin. From Ranelagh to Rathfarnham. Stillorgan to Sandy Cove.
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: When you're ready for the next chapter, start with Ireland's
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: number one property platform.
• 22:53
  Speaker 8: Daft.ie I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each
• 22:58
  Speaker 8: week on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people
• 23:01
  Speaker 8: who have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found
• 23:05
  Speaker 8: a way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: filed against me.
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: what would you do if it was given back?
• 23:19
  Speaker 8: Where did that need come from where you thought that
• 23:22
  Speaker 8: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: He said, I have a work dad. I need a
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: home dad. What happens next? When I came in, he
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: started crying.
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: Everybody in life encounters hardships.
• 23:32
  Speaker 8: What defines them is not those hard moments that they
• 23:35
  Speaker 8: go through.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: It's about what happens next.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: I decided to risk it all.
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work.
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: Listen, Dar, I'm not going to pull punches. You can
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 23:47
  Speaker 8: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 23:50
  Speaker 8: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: But in my home, it's actual playdates at our house.
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: It's playdates out with other kids. It's families that I respect.
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: The women, the wives, the mothers, the husbands, their relationships.
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: And I can watch where the husband will walk into
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: a room at the end of a playdate in the
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: evening and come up and kiss his wife. And she's
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: peering around the corner watching this engagement.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Your daughter is.
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah. She's watching to see it. So I feel comfortable
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: in how she is. in this environment that she's learning
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: the social, sort of the social skills, but also how
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: to be treated. To then notice when you're not being
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: treated well. And Heather, I told you this the other day,
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: but one of the biggest things for me in being
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: a parent, and I don't need, I'm not here to say,
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: oh my God, you're a great parent. You're not, I
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: don't need the accolades. One thing reality TV taught me
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: was that You don't believe the good and you don't
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: believe the bad because I'm probably never going to know
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: you anyway. So you can say I'm the most handsome person.
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: You can say I'm the ugliest person. I don't know you.
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: You're not in my orbit. But my, what became kind
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: of my thought process in parenting and especially for having
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: a daughter is that I want you to be kind
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: and respectful because to me, the education part, unless you're
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: a doctor or you're going to be an engineer, lawyer, um,
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: Your kindness and you just being a great human gets
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: you real far in life.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: And so if you're kind and respectful, you will attract
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: that kind of person.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: I tell her this.
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: She's only eight, but I tell her.
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: Did you stay in therapy after? I didn't.
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: That therapist really didn't know my ex, but really didn't
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: like him. And I was like, you know, I think
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: this is about, and he said, my mother was a narcissist.
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: And I see it. And I didn't fully process what
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: he was saying then.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: But your mother.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: No, his.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, the therapist's mother.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: And I was like, okay, we're talking.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: And so that was the first time someone thought maybe
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: your ex could be this.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Correct.
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: And I didn't.
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: And it took me years later where I started to
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: think like, gosh, what he said, that's really interesting. Because
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: at the time I thought, no, I don't know. But
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: back to your original question.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: The thing with parenting, just to wrap that up. And
• 26:11
  Speaker 5: she's now... she's now noticing it with school. She's noticing that.
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: So I thought, you know what? That lesson to me
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: is so important. She's becoming such an interesting person that
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: I couldn't have done that in that same environment. So
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: I don't, I think that the benefit of this ending
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: is that I am able to parent her how I
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: would like to. And that's been good for her.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: To the end, what happened was to your question about the,
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: what caused that night? I, the therapist said, you need space.
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: I said, I do need space. And I'm not exiting
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: this relationship, but I need space. And he said, you
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: need to go in and tell him you're going to
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: be staying in the guest room. You're going to be,
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: you have space in the home to do that.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: Yes, I do.
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: And I told him, I said, he's not going to
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: like that. It's not going to go over well at all.
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: And he said, well, then you have your answer. Because
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: he said, what do you want to do? I said,
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: I don't want to leave the relationship. I don't right now.
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: I need to like step back. And as soon as
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: I told him, get your shit, go to a hotel.
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: And we in 10 years had never done that.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: And do you think it's because you asserted your stance
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: for the first time and he felt the control was lost?
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: And that's a question for you too, Drew. Like, why
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: is it that, you know?
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: It makes me wonder, there's called cluster B personality disorders, right?
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Which are the narcissistic disorders, borderline sociopath, narcissist. And let
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: me just say, we, One of the things that has
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: happened in the last 50 years is we've all developed
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: narcissistic traits. The three of us have them. That's the pandemic.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: And is that because everyone has an Instagram account, because
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: everyone takes selfies, because everybody's photos.
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: Is narcissism how we look at it in the mirror?
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: Is it that we want to be pretty?
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Is it? No, no, no, no. It's deficiencies in childhood.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: And maybe because everybody's working and everybody's busy and kids
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: are abandoned or left to caretake, whatever it is.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: To care for ourselves or go to daycare and all that,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: which didn't really exist 50 years ago, is what you're saying.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: And then also the television and the social media. I mean,
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: it's just been one thing after another. So I watched it.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: When I started working in a psychiatric hospital in 1985,
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: there was not a lot of narcissism. By 92, only narcissists.
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: And cluster B was being admitted to our hospital only.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: And from then on. So it just came in the
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: late 80s. At the time, I thought, oh, it's because
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: of all the abuse of the kids. because there was
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: a lot of sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, a ton
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: after the 70s. The 70s perpetrated all over the place,
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: but I think it was even more than that. So
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: this trend has happened. It's happened worldwide. And in cluster B,
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: some of those personalities have a deep preoccupation with abandonment.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: And so the fact that you said, I've got to
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: move away, felt like an abandonment and he has to sabotage.
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: And that's something that- He's spoken a lot about, and
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: a lot of times in an argument would be, well,
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: you know, that's the fear of abandonment.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: That I have. So that moves his personality a certain direction.
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: But a lot of people have that. And it can be,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: it's why people sabotage relationships. It's a fucking fear of
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: abandonment is a mess. It ruins relationships all over the place.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: And it makes people volatile and dysregulated. It's a mess.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: So we're in that zone here.
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: But I guess in that zone, what I've kind of
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: noticed- It's almost like the person that I sense you're
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: gonna break up with me. So I'm just going to
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: jump the gun.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: Exactly. Because they can't deal with the abandonment. So they'd
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: rather sabotage than have you abandoned. It's just... So they're
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: in control of the lives. Right.
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: But I also feel like sometimes there is an element
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: where they also create chaos because they can control the chaos.
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: They can almost start whether it's a triangulation with people,
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: this is something that has been witnessed by a lot
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: of people in this five years, that I'm watching it
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: and I'm like, it's very similar to this situation and
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: that situation. And all of that over the time that
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: we were together, it keeps going. And when you step
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: back away from it, I'm watching it. I bring these
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: things up again to open up the conversation to people
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: that may be going through this, but not knowing it
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: and not being aware, but also because- There is our
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: daughter in the middle of this too. And I'm wondering,
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: and I'm starting to see ways that this is manifesting
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: in her and some of her behavior that has become
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: kind of interesting. Okay.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: So I think you sort of talked about triangles and chaos,
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: and I think you're talking about splitting behaviors. This one's
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: all good. This one's all bad. Pit them against each other. Yes, yes.
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: I've watched that happen so many times.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: With a lot of people.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: But when you talk about splitting behaviors, can you give
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: a hypothetical example?
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Because I don't really understand what you mean.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: It comes from, mom, I want an ice cream. You go, no,
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: you just had ice cream three hours ago. No more
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: ice cream. Dad, mom says I can have some ice cream.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Is that okay? Okay. And by the way, she's really
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: mad or something where they pit two of you against
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: each other to get your way.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, for a kid to get the way. Okay.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: But it starts in childhood.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Got it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: Okay. Well, splitting is mom, dad. And in early in life,
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: we kind of can see things as all good and
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: all bad.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, look at what's in social media today.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: People freaking out.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: It's all bad. It's all good. That is pathological. Nothing
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: is all good and all bad. Everything is sort of gradations.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: But children see things all good, all bad. Certain personality
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: styles see things all good, all bad. The splitting behavior
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: is sort of a way of– it's sort of what's
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: going on inside of them. And it's also a way
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: of getting their way, as you said, using the chaos,
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: using the drama of the split. But what I want
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: to tell you is you're seeing splitting behavior. How old
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: is your daughter now? She's eight. It's normal for an
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: 11- or 12-year-old to start doing that stuff. Yeah. It's
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: an adolescent thing. Yeah. Is she in puberty or pre-puberty
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: yet or anything?
• 32:10
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: So– Be careful.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I think that is very hard. And I've talked about
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: it on the show. And I had it with my daughter, Mackenzie.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And I understand in California they really want to get
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: both parents like 50-50.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: But it is so– if.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: A parent can see that they're not losing any control
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: as a relationship and know that it's just– I believe
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: a lot. Talk to any kid. That's like over 25
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: that had to live in two homes. And they'll say what,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: and you ask them, what was the hardest part about
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: your parents' divorce? It wasn't like, oh, I wish they
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: were together. It's like going from house to house, having
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: the clothes, forgetting the book, da-da-da-da, you know, and then
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: really rich people will have two soccer uniforms and they
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: will do all that and have three school uniforms.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: It's still, it's still hard. It still really is hard.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: And I almost feel like the old school way of,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: you know, every week or every other weekend and Wednesday
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: nights and things like that, you know, I remember one
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: of my friends, Jill Zarin, she said that they were
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: supposed to share it like more like 50-50 with her
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: daughter who's now 32, Allie. And the husband said, I
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: don't think this is working. Like, I think that she should,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: and to this day, the three of them all work together,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: you know, and she's gotten remarried and blah, blah, blah.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: And it's like, And the relationship did not suffer because
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the physical time was different. But I see that that's
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: a trend, and it's part of the legal system, especially
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: in California, kind of starting with giving men more rights,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: which I agree with, the traditional father role. But I
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: do think it's very hard on a kid when they're
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: that age.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: I agree. Be aware of that. I agree with you.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: But I'm interested in your missing the signs, your denial.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: My role? Yeah. Well, it's interesting because when we think
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: about we want to help other people see these things,
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: that's something you could help folks with because that's a
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: really common thing. When you idealize somebody else, when you
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: subjugate your own feeling states, when you deny what's actually happening,
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: when you minimize, when you compartmentalize, these are all strategies
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: that people use. Yeah.
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: And I'm obviously not aware of that at the time.
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: But as you look back. starting this relationship, this was
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: sort of a larger than life personality that suddenly had
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: an interest in me also.
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: And- So it fueled your narcissism.
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: It just, maybe it did. And in this process, I've
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: always thought like, am I the narcissist? Like, am I the, what,
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: what out of this? Cause it is, I've, I'm moved on.
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: I have a great set of people. I have a
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: great relationship.
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: You have real relationships now. Yeah. Yeah. And- You said it,
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: not me. But that's where you're true. It's stable intimacy.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: Kind relationships. Use that word. Kindness is something that people
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: look for when they come out of something like this.
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: It's interesting because I went on a few dates with
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: some pretty high profile people in the time. And I
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: really didn't have a serious relationship until the one I'm
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: in now, which started two years ago. So three years
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: of just like surface level stuff. And I immediately picked up.
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: I'm like, nope, not you. What do you think of
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: my personality based on what you see on Instagram? What's
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: your perception?
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: I'm like, are you kidding?
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: That's what they would ask you on the date? Yeah.
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: And I was like, let's wrap up dinner and this is,
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: we're good. We don't need to talk. But anyways, so
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: I started to notice those things. But in the last
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: couple of years, I really thought what was my where
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: was my headspace at to have attracted this? And again,
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: there were good things that came from it, but it also,
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: that was 10 years of my life. And I think
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: that some people look at it like, I don't feel-
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: But you made it work for 10 years. I made
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: it work for 10 years. I learned a lot, but
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: I think a lot of people probably look at it
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: like I was robbed. And now I'm, especially women, it's
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: like you get into your 40s and I have friends
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: that are like, those were my good years. I'm like,
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: that's so crazy because you have so much ahead of
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: your time.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: Women saying that.
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, like I felt robbed in my 15 years or
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: 20 years of marriage and whatever. But in my case-
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: What I felt like, I don't know that my mom
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: had full narcissistic tendencies, but what she did was if
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: there was an argument, and I was a middle child,
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: if there was an argument, she would shut down.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: Her way of communication was shut down.
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: And I felt like I became, looking back in childhood,
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: I became the middle child that just, is everyone okay?
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Is dad okay? Are you okay?
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: Are you mad at my older brother? Why are you
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: mad at him? Really getting into the mix of it.
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: To where now with my daughter, it's very easy for
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: me to sink into that. Like, I'm just going to
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: shut down because it's how I know how to communicate.
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: I do not.
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: I probably overly communicate. Anyways, when all through childhood, I
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: became that sort of like.
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: Caretaker. Peacemaker. Yeah, peacemaker more than anything. Was your mom
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: an alcoholic too? No, she was not.
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: And then I think at an early age when I
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: met him, here's this like magnetic personality, very successful, like just.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: Sort of in awe a little bit.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: He was running business. And famous.
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: The fame was, I think, a part of it, but
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: it also was like, there was just, I come from
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: an entrepreneurial family. This guy is just making stuff happen.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: He's hustling. He's been hustling.
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: He's older than me. Wasn't anything I was attracted, like
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: that wasn't what I was, I had never dated anybody older.
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: It was really my first real relationship was him. And
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: so I realized that I felt like there was comfort
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: because very quickly what happened, we moved in pretty quick.
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: We were completely together, you know, and then shortly into it,
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: you start to get little things where you're thrown into
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: a little bit of disarray.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: These are the signs you were talking about.
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: What were the signs?
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: I think the things I can talk to are probably
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: more on the show that were on TV where it's
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: like you've done it.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: Meaning you're comfortable talking about something that's already public. Yes. Okay.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: Um, that was because also that, you know, at the
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: end of the day, I still, we still have a
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: daughter together and there's parts of it where it's like,
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: I don't understand how you've said what you've said, because
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: eventually I would assume she hears these things. And I don't, anyways,
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: these are things she.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: Could watch about me in.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: The aftermath of this has been a true nightmare, but
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: these are things she can go watch on TV and
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: be like, Oh, okay. But it's to the point of
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: what you said, like, I'm not sure what your value
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: is yet. Um, We're running a very successful, very successful business.
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: And then you're saying this stuff, just ripping me apart
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: at my core. And those moments throw me into, and
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: at that particular moment, we have a newborn daughter. We are,
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: for the first time, actually completely locked in for her life,
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: or the rest of our lives. We didn't really have that.
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: I was never any ownership in the business. I was
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: never any ownership of any of the real estate, none
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: of it. And so you then say that, and we're
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: not married, but that's a life commitment. And now you're
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: throwing us into this disarray where I'm just disoriented and
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: I'm kind of blacked out. We're in this now. We're
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: in this for... That argument probably happened at eight or
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: nine years in. And it's public and I'm gonna have
• 39:29
  Speaker 5: to relive it in three months.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: The moment in the car. No, the moment.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: That I said in the car from the TV show
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: that I always remember when I think about how cruel
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: it was when he says, what's the value of you?
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: If you didn't do this and I have a nanny
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: and what's the point of even having you here?
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: I see. So you're just a something to be exploited. Yeah.
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: And I think early in the relationship, you know, I
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: had my own family issues at that time. Didn't really
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: have a friend group around. You don't talk about the
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: relationship outside of the relationship, which, you know, I think
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: is problematic when people don't. I think, you know, now talking,
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: I have a friend that listened to this and she's like.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: Dude, what the fuck? Like what? All that? What?
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: All that was going on? And so I think whenever
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: you start to isolate and get away from people that
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: could be third party, just say, hey, just so you know,
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: that's weird. It's a weird situation. You don't have to
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: be that. But I got into that and then it
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: would be just sort of blown up. There'd be an
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: explosion of stuff. And then I'm like thinking, fuck, I'm
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: like 25, I'm 26.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: Like what?
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: I am fully in this. And it almost is when
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: I'm fully in that, how I felt was that It
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: wasn't like, I guess it was kind of trapped, but it's,
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: how are you that upset about something that I think now,
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: is this all ending? Like, what happens to me? What
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: happens to what I've thrown and invested all this time
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: in this commitment.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: To- So it's all these other considerations kept you in
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: longer than you should have been.
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: Well, and then I found myself just figuring out how
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: to make it work.
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: Oh.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: And then I ended up- Did you ever think about
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: getting treatment as a couple?
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: We did at.
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: Times, but it was with his therapist. And it wasn't
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: like a third party.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Was it ever on the show?
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: That's always great, right?
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: Therapy on TV.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's okay.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: Then have the whole world then chime in too.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Like that's the other thing that I think as someone
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: who studied reality TV, because I love it and I
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: talk about it so much. And that's why, because it's
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: very fascinating, especially now with social media, whether it's just
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: a podcast or radio show or TV show, People can
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: get to you and write to you and say, like,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: you were wrong.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: You did this. You're, you know, really nasty things.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And even if you don't want to go to that site,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: somehow it slips into the DM or someone who thinks
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: they're doing you a favor says, oh, Gage, I just
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: want you to know what was said about you today.
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: And I have that on a mic. I didn't really
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: need to know, but I like the recap. I physically
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: cannot listen, even if they send me clips, unless it's
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: real bad. I can't even listen to it because.
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: It's so hard. That's all abandonment stuff and narcissistic rage.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Narcissistic rage is afoot, everybody.
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean, there's a lot of that. And what
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: I don't understand in that and sort of doing this
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: open therapy session with you, I don't understand how, going
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: back to what you said, a male-female relationship with a mom,
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: a wife that's now an ex-wife, the berating that goes
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: on about you should have never been on the birth certificate.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Because you're not the biological father.
• 42:45
  Speaker 5: That's a common thread.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: So he's not the biological father. His partner is.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: And then they got a surrogate and an egg donor.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: So that gets thrown a lot towards his direction and
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: by fans.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: By a lot of fans.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Who are women, which I just find shocking.
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: But that's a narrative.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: It makes me embarrassed to be a woman that you
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: would look at a gay father and because he's not
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: the biological dad, somehow think he's less than because you're
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: such a fan of this personality.
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: Am I doing the math correctly? But it's always going
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: to be somebody in a gay relationship.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: With a child?
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: They're being homophobic by saying that.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: They think that they're being supportive of this gay man
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: because that's who they listen to every day.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: But they're not.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: They're not even seeing how wrong and hypocritical it is.
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: The worst thing in the world is for a child
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: to have a deep relationship with somebody and then it
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: rupture and vanish. The child feels responsible for that. Correct.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: I don't care who the biological father is. That's going
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: to damage the child.
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: So like that's– of the multitude of things that have
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: gone on, that has been a really strong narrative of–
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: even as of I think last week, worst regret was
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: putting him on the birth certificate. Like you had– this
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: was IVF. Like there was not a discussion. We were
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: both– father one, father two in the state of California.
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: Let me flip it around.
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: It's just like that– I don't understand how you could
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: treat someone and talk like that.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: Is there a way that this relationship could have worked?
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Anyway, and that has been said publicly by your ex.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: I wish I hadn't put him on.
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: The– I mean more than a dozen times as of recently.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: Cultivate the word whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Of course he feels that.
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: Because he's having pain. He doesn't like the abandonment. He
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: doesn't like the hassle. Whatever. That's interesting. Whatever. Yeah. It's just,
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: that's all craziness. But is there a way this could
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: have worked out? I mean, could he have gotten, are
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: there things he could have softened?
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, again, I hate- You mean as having a
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: better co-parenting relationship or worked out staying together?
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: You know, if you're- Romantically staying together.
• 44:57
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: Could there, I mean, would there, where you could have
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: seen him realistically- And he softened some of his splitting
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: that it could have worked out. No. Because?
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: Because to me, and I actually think this enraged him
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: more personally, she became the priority.
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: For you?
• 45:21
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: And because she became the priority- You've said that many
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: times already. I couldn't, and I know now, there was
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: something in my gut at the time But I know
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: now I look at my.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: Daily life with her.
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: I absolutely could not do that with her if I
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: was still in that relationship.
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: And that became more important. Even if he had softened
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: his stuff.
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: There's not a world that exists that it's even now
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: I'm criticized that I don't work enough. I don't have
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: a job. I don't all these things. It's this narrative
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: that they've created. That's completely inaccurate. Down to she takes
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: the bus. Now that became a whole recent episode that
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: he then wanted to control how sure transportation was to
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: get to school. Yet I'm thinking, dude, you're lucky that
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: I have a job that technically I have a window
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: of time, but it's really crucial. I'm actually at the
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: office working during that exact time because it's East Coast hours.
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: So in the morning, it's like, you want to control that.
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: I don't work enough, but then work more and do
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: this and do that. And that environment was consistent for
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: the whole time. So being a parent and doing the
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: parental things I like to do with her that I
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: think are helping her, I would never be in that relationship.
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: And go back to it because of that thing.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: Just light funniness of the taking the bus.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: OK.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: First of all, you know, he has help, hired help
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: to take her to school in a car. So now
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: she's going on a bus of this is not dropping
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: her off in, you know, on Ventura Boulevard to get
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: on the RTD by herself and go to Koreatown. Like
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: this is this is a private school that provides. transportation,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: safe buses, because there's people in people that don't live
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: in LA. I don't know, but there's people from all
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: corners of it and there's traffic. And so it works out.
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Every, these people meet at this corner and their kid
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: goes on and then have a little friend. So, but
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: that is drama for content for the show. And then
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: people like, so this gets, this gets shared on his show.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: Hold on. So, hold on.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: So, so On one hand, when I hear these stories,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: I think, well, he's in pain too, and he's got rage,
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: and he's acting it out, and blah, blah, blah. You
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: as the codependent tend to act in, he acts out, right? Yeah.
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: But you're saying that he's continued to exploit Gage just
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: for content.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, in my.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Opinion, when I think about how many episodes Gage has
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: been mentioned over the last five years since they've broken up,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: I would say it's 300 to 400 episodes.
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: It's not just him acting out his stuff.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: With his name and everything because he.
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: But he wants to hurt him because he's hurting too.
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: And that's, again, that's... Right.
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: I also feel like, in a way, I feel like,
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: and again, I have my core group of people, right?
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: But I feel like, in a way, the intention is
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: to get ahead of what could possibly be the truth
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: coming out. And I'm going to accuse you of things
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: that maybe I did. So that if you came back
• 48:19
  Speaker 5: and said, I did those things, it looks like it's
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: a tit for tat childhood argument.
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: Like, no, you did that.
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: No, you did that. And I feel like there was,
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: there's been this like, and I don't fully get it
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: because I don't need to be in the limelight that
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: this is entertainment has been his business for 15 plus years.
• 48:37
  Speaker 5: Go do it. That's your, that's your thing.
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: Great.
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: But at the expense of me, you know, to say
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: that three or 400 episodes, like you're building a career
• 48:46
  Speaker 5: off of talking.
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: Shit about me.
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: That's a little pathetic on one hand, but also it
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: is almost like this intentional way to just destroy any
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: credibility that I could have because of a fear that
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: if what really went on It would be, I just
• 49:09
  Speaker 5: feel like I'm under attack constantly with the.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: Person I'm supposed to compare with. I would need more
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: information to be able to respond to that. That's where
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: I feel like the rubber hits the road. Whatever that
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: is that you want to talk about. I feel like
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: there's a lot there. And so we're talking about personality
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: styles and other things, but there's something else. There's something missing.
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: You can tell me off the air, whatever.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: I just think in the.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: World that we live in, and in reality TV, there's
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: a lot of storylines and whatnot that the girls get
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: back to filming and they're like, you went on, you know,
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Juicy Scoop and said, I didn't come to your party
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: because I thought it was lame, you know, whatever.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: And that happened.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: And then that becomes like a little storyline. That's one
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: thing to listen to one or two podcasts where maybe
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: someone talks.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: Bad about you that either you make up with or
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: you're like, why is that person talking about me?
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: But when I think about Gage's situation, To have every
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: moment of their custody issues, their daily pickups, that an
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: hour was changed, whatever. And then have people that are
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: also being paid to be there as co-hosts chime in
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: to please their.
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: Boss who's paying them.
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: Would make sense.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: To say, well, I don't know what's wrong with Gage.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: He clearly has issues or it's clearly, you know, these
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: people aren't therapists. These aren't, or the therapist you have,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I don't really agree with, whatever. And, And I just,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm like, when I did kind of like
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: the math and I was like, how many episodes do
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: you think while you're no longer on TV and no
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: longer on your own radio show and just trying to
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: like be a dad and have your business, how many
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: times do you think you're talked about and mentioned? And
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: I've seen even where someone's like, the only time the
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: show is interesting now is when he's going after Gabe.
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: So how many?
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: I think probably 300 to 400 episodes since you've broken up.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: Probably.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: But when I saw that little comment somewhere of people,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: that wasn't a show.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: But it's totally consistent with how reality shows are done. Right.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: It's like a new manifestation of reality show. It's very
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: much that.
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: It's an extension of what that originally was and that's
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: what that show has become.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: To me, I think it's almost sociological, not psychological.
• 51:29
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, it's weird.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: But, I mean, I guess the question is, you know,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: my hope is that in this that it would stop
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God, yes. That it would stop for you.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Of course. That the content about you and your daughter.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Because what I also want to say is, you know,
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: when a couple gets divorced in this world of reality TV,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: for example, Tamara Burney on O.C., When she divorced Simon,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Simon said the minor kids can't be on TV.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: So they couldn't be on TV. Same with Brandi Glanville.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: But what's different about today where these podcasts become reality shows,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: you know, even if she isn't going to be on TV,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: your daughter, there is this like loophole of that you
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: can talk about her and tell these stories. And to
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: a child– When they're 35, they might not care, or
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: even when they're 25, they might not care that you
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: told an embarrassing story about the day they got their period, okay?
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: But to think that there's been conversations about what will
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: that day be like when our child gets her period
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: or when she wants to get plastic surgery, and speculation
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: and funny and laughing and talking about a child that's
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: just walking around, and we don't know now if her
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: friend's parents have heard this, and maybe are like, I'd
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: rather you not play with this child.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: Like we don't, you know what I mean? That can
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: happen too.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: Some screwball young male is going to play it back
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: to her. Believe me, believe me. And a 12 year
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: old female, when they hit that age, they're going to
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: use it against her for something. It's just how that
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: age works. It's how it is. And you know, this is,
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: this is not good for kids.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: And I just, I'm shocked that like the hardcore fans
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: and stuff that are vocal in comments have never said, guys,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know that my eight-year-old would like to be
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: talked about weekly. It's part of the delusion. Even if
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: the story is funny or exaggerated or made up or whatever,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: it's just that. Because I remember with my own kids,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I said when I did my stand-up, my first special,
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: which was over 10 years ago, I was like, you
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: can't watch this until you're 16. And now that they're
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: older– I can talk about them on stage. They do
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: think it's funny. They do look back at an old
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: bit and think it's funny about the Hot Wheels car.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: But I remember somehow Brandon did see a little bit.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: And I joked and I said, Drake is my least favorite.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: But it was a joke because I said he's so
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: much like Peter. Now, Brandon loved that joke. He loved
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: that I said that. But then there was something else
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: that I.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: Said and it made him mad.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: Of course.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: And I was like, I told you guys can't watch
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: this until you're 16. And I realized like, even though
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: it's talking and stuff like that, and that's why I'm,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: you know, and I was always like, can I post this?
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: Is it okay? Can you be part of this video
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: or you're not? And now they are good.
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: I heard about this was Bert Kreischer when he first
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: showed his daughter one of his standups. And they were like,
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: is this what you talk about? Do you talk about
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: us like this? He's like, yeah, I'm making fun. He's like,
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: They didn't know how to process it. They were overwhelmed.
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: And I thought, yeah, that makes sense, right?
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: It's their whole world. But there's a weird delusion with
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: reality stuff generally, which is people watching delude themselves into–
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: thinking they're in the room.
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: They don't, they're a fly on the wall. Not that
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: there are a cameraman, a cable guy, a sound guy
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: on one side, a sound man, a cable guy, a
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: director with a video village and 12 people in it
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: outside over here. That's how reality is done. It's very
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: manufactured and you were not in the room and you
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: don't know these people. And what you say can hurt.
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: It's like a weird, it's like they treat the reality,
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: everybody on TV, like they're comic book characters. Like they
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: don't really exist. As in the audience. The audience believes
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: they're in the room and that the actual people are
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: just sort of cartoon characters.
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: Well, and I feel like that's a weird thing, right?
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: The fans that had watched this show for, I mean,
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: I think I was on for 70 episodes of TV,
• 55:52
  Speaker 5: talked about for hundreds of whatever the number is. And
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: these people, when they say these things, I'm like, you
• 55:58
  Speaker 5: do all realize that the root of this, the whole,
• 56:01
  Speaker 5: it's not, we don't have a conversation outside of co-parenting.
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: It is all about co-parenting. And that's what's then shared.
• 56:07
  Speaker 5: At the root is a girl who's innocent in all
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: of this. And everyone's commenting, saying this stuff, whatever the
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: personality types are on either side, it's been shocking and
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: eyeopening to me. I don't need you to be my fan.
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: But to your exact point, the audience thinks they know
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: everyone in this mix. And they don't. And the way
• 56:28
  Speaker 5: they're treating, it's really hard for me to stand by
• 56:31
  Speaker 5: because it's like, you're all in a way mistreating my
• 56:35
  Speaker 5: daughter by what you're doing, what you're saying. And that's,
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: it's exactly your point. The audience thinks they really know
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: and they know all the players.
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: And they're entitled to it.
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: They're entitled.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: That's why they're like, we want to hear this and
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Gage is ruining it for us.
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: Engages this, engages that. And why are you trying to
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: shut it down? And all of this stuff because that
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: makes the show so interesting. It's like, but I am just,
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: it's like you said.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: It's so funny.
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: Would you come back to this relationship?
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: No, not at all.
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: Because I couldn't be who I am as a dad.
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: And then when you look at that, it's like, don't
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: shut down the radio show from being able to talk
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: about her and talk about him.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And that's what– also this is what makes the money
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: is me talking about my personal life, which involves you,
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: my ex, and my kid.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: And the audience will say that too.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Like, well, if Gage doesn't want them being talked about,
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: then he just shouldn't get his child support. And it's
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: like you have all these other people on the show.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: You can talk about something other than your 8-year-old daughter
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: and your ex.
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: And you can.
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: Talk about your feelings. Right. But talk about– in explicit ways,
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: the other people that sort of, yeah, it's, it's, it's wrong.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: And, but it's true.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: It's like people, the entitlement of like, well, don't ruin
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: our fund. You know, like why are you such a bus?
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:53
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry.
• 57:55
  Speaker 5: I checked your daughter and you, you couldn't work a
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: normal job if you wanted to, because we bashed the
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: shit out of you.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: They're also very mad that he did, you know, doesn't
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: want photos of her on Instagram or whatever, because, People,
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: she's beautiful, and she would be very recognizable. Just like
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: you'd see a Disney kid walking around the Grove, you
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: might recognize your favorite character on an ABC sitcom, which
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: is a scripted show, which they're getting paid and protected.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: So you had some stories where.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: you know, women or whoever, fans, will come up to
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: her and she doesn't know who they are and it's freaky.
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: She got really freaked out at the Grove one time
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: a few years ago and I pulled everything off.
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: Well, I brought up.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: The Grove because the Grove is a story, but still.
• 58:40
  Speaker 5: But we were shopping at some store that she normally,
• 58:43
  Speaker 5: we would always go to and get dresses for her
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: and this woman came up and just started like, Like
• 58:47
  Speaker 5: a grandma type of figure and just intense. Oh my God, Monroe, Monroe.
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: And she grabbed ahold of my neck. She was probably four.
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: Squeezed it in my ear. She's like, daddy, how does
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: she know my name? And I was like, oh my God.
• 59:01
  Speaker 5: And I immediately, because everyone's like, you deleted your Instagram
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: because that was a baby. And as soon as she
• 59:07
  Speaker 5: communicated her discomfort.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: I freaked out.
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: my God, you have no idea what's coming because you
• 59:13
  Speaker 5: were born. You know, she thinks she was born on TV.
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: I told her that was the end cap of documenting
• 59:21
  Speaker 5: how you were born. You know that Aunt Alexandra grew
• 59:24
  Speaker 5: you in her belly. You knew that your two dads
• 59:27
  Speaker 5: came together and made you with doctors and with science.
• 59:30
  Speaker 5: And we showed that so it could help other people,
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: but that was the end cap of you, you know,
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: your experience. This wasn't a TV show about you.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: This is a Truman show.
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 59:39
  Speaker 5: And it's like, so with the, that becomes a constant fight, like,
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: cause it's not fully documented that you can't post it.
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: And it's like, but it's just, She is beautiful, and
• 59:49
  Speaker 5: I don't need her to read 4,000 comments about how
• 59:53
  Speaker 5: beautiful she is. Or the five that are like, you're not.
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: The nasty ones.
• 59:58
  Speaker 5: You need braces. Why would you exploit that to open
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 5: that conversation for a kid that would then have to
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: process that when we don't need to? If you want
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 5: her to be in entertainment, she wants to be an actress,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: or she wants– we know– Everybody in Hollywood to be
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: able to make that happen when she needs. She is
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: not a kid in Kansas that's trying to get her break.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: Why do we need to exploit her?
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: You don't have to do it now.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: She also can. She can be in the theater department
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: in college.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: She can study film. And learn the art of it.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: But it's like this kid right now.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: And she can do a high school play if she wants.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: This kid right now wants to be an astronaut.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: She loves space. Everything about space. Let her be who
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: she's going to be. We don't need to label and.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: And that's another struggle.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let her explore all that fun kid stuff.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 5: But to your point, I feel like, yeah, that's one
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 5: thing that is a struggle is that the audience, it's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: just at the expense of whoever because I don't really
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 5: give a shit. I'm watching you as a character, Gage,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 5: who's not been on anything for seven years.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: It's a manifestation of the culture of narcissism. We all
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: have these traits. And so these fans have empathic failure
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: and they don't appreciate what they're doing to her. They
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: can't because they don't, Have the capacity for it. Empathic failure.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: Empathic failure. Empathic attunement. The ability to appreciate the experiences
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: of others emotionally and certainly not appreciate their impact on others.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: I didn't expect to be so heartbroken by this conversation.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of really sad things in this one. Thanks.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: I'm going to go back to my life now. No,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: I don't mean right now. Right now you found kindness
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: and intimacy and all these things. You found your way out.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: It's all great. But it's all– there's a lot of
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: sadness for me hearing this story.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Before we wrap up, for the people that are at
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: home that are not with a famous narcissist but might
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: have a narcissist ex or they see that their partner
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: does have it or certain traits but they're not ready
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: to leave, is there anything that they could do or
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: study or get to a place so that they could
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: have pleasant days and not the kind of anxiety that
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: might come with being with a partner like this?
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: Read about narcissism. I don't want people, again, because there
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: might be traits doesn't mean they're a bad person, doesn't
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: mean their relationship can't survive. I'm sure tons of good
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: things about that person too. And try to focus on that.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: But I think the one thing, I mean, oftentimes this
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: also carries other things, addictions and things with it. That
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: stuff needs to be treated. If it's not treated, this
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: will not work. You have to use the codependent, the
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: person attracted to these kinds of people have to learn
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: about boundaries and codependency. I think it's still out and around,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: a good book on narcissism called Why Is It Always
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: About You? It's a good primer book on narcissism. And
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: learn to set boundaries and ask for your needs to
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: get met and ask for kindness. It's funny that the
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: kindness is the word that came up for you. That's
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: often something people within with narcissists aren't getting and don't
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: know they need and don't know how to take it sometimes.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: But you should ask for that.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: And ask for them to practice paying attention to your needs.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: And it can work out. It doesn't have to be
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: a disaster.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: This is from Caroline Strawson.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know if she just came up with this
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: or if she's a doctor, but a smear campaign is
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: what a narcissist does to damage your reputation and credibility
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: because they perceive you as a threat or someone who
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: rejected them.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: So that's what we've been talking about.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: The other thing is if you're with a real narcissist,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: I heard a psychoanalyst say this the other day, and
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: it was really great. He just goes, If that narcissist
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: says to you, says you are, what you should hear is,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: I am.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 5: It's a projection.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: They do a lot of projecting. And that's what I've had.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 5: To help a few friends recently that are in breakups
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: or should be in a breakup. They're like, but they
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: said this and they said that. And the one thing
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: that I've taken away is you cannot change their story.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: Their story will morph into whatever their story needs to
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: be so they sleep at night. As yours, probably you
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: have your story. Stop trying to control that because you
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: will not be able to control their narrative. But I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 5: feel like this type of thing is basically my last
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: five years of it's just like, what I don't understand
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: is what is the intent of the, I've always thought,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: why would you come for me personally as I'm a
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: horrible dad, I'm a this, I'm that.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: And this like wraps it up. I think it's more
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: the abandonment than even the threat.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 5: But there's no overcoming that for a person like that
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 5: that has those issues of abandonment.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: Yes, they can get treatment. The problem is, They don't
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: see it. Right. If you really have a disorder, if
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: you really have a narcissistic personality disorder, why would I
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: get treatment? You're the problem. The problem is out there.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: It's right here. The locus of control is out there.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: But that's not a good way to go through life.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: You want to be accountable for everything that's going on
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: inside you. That's important.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, this has been really, really helpful. And
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: I'm really glad we got to have this conversation.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: And Dr.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Drew, tell everybody if they are not aware where they
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: can listen more to you or follow you and your book.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: Dr. Drew.com, Dr. Drew.tv. You can see our streaming show,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: Ask Dr. Drew. It's Tuesday and Wednesday, Thursday at 3
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: o'clock typically. Rumble's a great place to subscribe. We have
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: Rumble channel there. Check it out.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: Gage.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: I'm just me.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 5: Going back to my sad life.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: Going back to your love.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: He knows it's a lovely life.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: I'm going back to the story is sad. Where you
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 4: are is good.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: I hope that this brings some clarity, not more trauma.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it'll bring. I'm praying that Maybe
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: a few months from now, maybe even after this airs,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: there will be a shift. And this won't continue for
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: the next five years.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm really hoping.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: My hope is that I agree with you. There's nothing wrong.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: Like it's everybody else's issue. I just think that people
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 5: should in the world today. Look at a little bit
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: more kindness and a little bit more empathy.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: You brought that up. I think that is the word
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: of the day.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: Empathy is my word of kindness. Just realize maybe another perspective.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 5: The same is with a personality like this if you're
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: in it. Look at it that there is maybe a
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: deeper problem you have nothing to do with. And the
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 5: lashing out on you has nothing to do with you.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: They're actually in pain.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: So feel for that.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 5: In this circumstance, in this situation, because it keeps becoming
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 5: so public every day, Maybe a listener of that should
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: be a little bit more empathetic of at the core.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: You can hate me. I don't care if you hate me.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: That's fine.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 5: You're talking shit about the other parent of that girl
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: who didn't sign up for any of this. So just
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: I feel that would be a great takeaway. If people
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: are like, oh, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't say, gosh,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: your show's boring unless you talk shit about gays or
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 5: the other.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: Maybe that's a start. I don't know. And there's a
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: whole other topic we've not discussed. Another show would be
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: a topic of shame. Shame operates in many levels in
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: all these things.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: You mean if the narcissist feels shame, they react a
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: certain way?
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: They have shame at their core, yeah. Oh, interesting. If
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: you get near that, that's when you get the... Maybe
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: we need a follow-up.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: We can do a follow-up.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: You just digest all of what we just dumped on you.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: Process your sadness.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 5: And maybe you come back and tell us the things
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: that you need to share of what really is going on.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, you guys. Thank you.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 8: What's it called?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: It's Dune ADL.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 8: Where?
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: Dunediel?
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: There's an accent on the E.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: Do you mean... Yes, I got it on Dundiel Cars. Lift?
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: Please.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: You're going past Kimmage? Oh, Kimmage!
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: Dundiel Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.