Latest / The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective / The E1B2 2022 Recap Show Episode 6: Trevor Bogan

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The E1B2 2022 Recap Show Episode 6: Trevor Bogan · The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective

0:02
All right, Trevor. Why I definitely appreciate you
0:04
joining this this podcast and I think of the second-to-last
0:09
interviewer. So I'm definitely excited and
0:12
you know, I know for me, as I've told every guest that's come on
0:16
to this little series here, starting this series, starting
0:19
this starting this. This this process has been fun
0:23
because it's been a lot of things that that has been
0:26
unpacked from 2022. And there's been a lot of
0:30
thoughts and perspectives. And different categories, as we
0:34
had a head out into 2020 or actually, now in 2023 not
0:38
heading out. Yeah, I knew what you meant in
0:41
2023, but I'm very appreciative very honored, even though I've
0:45
done, you know, 700 plus episodes, and talked to a number
0:49
of people, I'm always, I'm always just very blessed and
0:52
appreciative of anyone to spend some time to talk about some
0:56
things. So, please give us give a shirt,
0:59
your 92nd background, who are you, what do you do?
1:01
Now and then we'll hop right it? Yeah sure.
1:05
Well I first of all I want to thank you, Anthony, for inviting
1:09
me on. I mean, you know, to have seven
1:11
hundred episodes is a tribute to you.
1:13
What you're doing in the HR community and you've had some
1:16
great fantastic guests, you know, I've listened to your, you
1:20
know, your couple recent ones and Michael and Damon and so
1:23
great content, you know, great conversation.
1:26
And so I think you for just giving me the opportunity to be
1:30
on here. So my name is Trevor Bogan, I'm
1:33
a regional director for top employers Institute and for the
1:36
North America. So I oversee the Americas, North
1:39
America and Latin America. And we are a company.
1:43
We've been in the HR space for 31 years or a global authority
1:47
of HR certifications for people practices and strategies.
1:52
And so we work in 121 countries, we're a global company partnered
1:57
with over, you know, 1800 companies about something that's
2:02
About our organization is through.
2:03
Our HR certification process, we've impacted 8 million, plus,
2:07
important employees. And and that's something that is
2:11
just fantastic to to an organization.
2:15
And so, I'm very blessed to be, with, with a company where, you
2:19
know, like I said, we're based on our HR practices and not on
2:22
in pennies and pinions of employees, or Outsiders.
2:26
And, and we, we just do a great value add for Companies that are
2:33
looking to accelerate their business that are looking to
2:39
stay ahead of the curve in the world of work.
2:42
And this could be sustainable initiatives employees, health,
2:46
and well-being. But we're Global Powerhouse in
2:50
that. And so my background is really
2:53
in, you know, for most recently in Staffing and recruiting.
2:56
So I worked, you know, in Staffing, recruiting doing split
3:00
desk obviously. Doing National recruiting for
3:04
organizations. And so love HR, love people
3:08
practices. Love the thought process of the
3:10
employees experience but really love working with HR teams
3:14
because at the end of the day it's like a house, right?
3:16
A good house has a good foundation and you know it
3:21
starts with that ground level and HR is really critical in
3:24
that to really keep the house going.
3:28
You know what are your HR practices?
3:30
What are you doing? And what are you working on?
3:33
What are you continuing to develop to make sure that your
3:37
employees have a great place to work.
3:40
Feel good about where they're going every day.
3:43
And that really comes down to HR at the end of the day it's what
3:46
what we do in the HR community that really supports, that
3:50
really make sure employees feel good whether they're working at
3:53
home hybrid in the office. You know what really does that
3:58
look like for you and so were consultative based company that
4:01
really Hopes organizations strategize, with plans.
4:05
They, you know, we have data and analytics, and some of the
4:09
things Anthony you've seen is is there's, you know, it's there's
4:13
new ways to do things, but it's not all new data.
4:15
There's just, you got to be Innovative and I think we talked
4:18
about that a little bit, is just the innovation of everything.
4:21
And so we really help HR teams become Innovative brand inch
4:26
Mark, a line globally. And We be successful.
4:33
And so you know I love this type of work.
4:36
I love getting on podcast. Like you like yourselves, we've
4:38
had conversations before you know, off air.
4:41
And you know, I just love talking about people and how we
4:44
can really help and support and we've all been through things
4:48
and so I think we're going to have a great conversation around
4:51
this. So I'm looking looking forward
4:52
to it. No I appreciate that.
4:55
Tell me this really briefly. Here what are some of the new
4:59
focuses or certifications that are That are coming out here in
5:03
the in 2023. If there's any, if there's any,
5:06
you know, doubling down on things or new focuses.
5:09
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for us we've really looked
5:12
at D EI, you know, that is something that comes up a lot.
5:17
And I know you've had several conversations around that
5:20
neurodiversity is another one that comes up a lot.
5:24
And we've really based a lot of our certification questions
5:27
around, you know, neurodiversity.
5:29
So your ADHD or dyslexia Yeah. And how that that how that
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supports certain, you know, organization specifically in it
5:37
where they've seen a benefit on hyper-focus, you know, so that's
5:42
something that's kind of forward thinking and that's that's how
5:47
we work, you know, right. HR companies, businesses and
5:50
successful ones are always Forward Thinking, always wanting
5:53
to grow, always wanting to learn, always wanting to get
5:55
better. And we are putting some things
5:58
in place around those two main initiatives to To really help
6:02
and support companies that are, you know, struggling with that,
6:06
or wanting to implement something, they just don't know
6:09
how to do things. And I can be more, you know, if
6:13
we go into a lot of different, you know, you we call them the
6:16
six domains, and we go through a lot of different, you know,
6:20
different domains, and strategies with organizations,
6:23
you know, around, you know, your business strategies, your
6:27
leadership, your work environment, employee
6:30
well-being, Being performance, career, learning and play
6:34
branding, you know, your ethics Integrity.
6:37
We do all of that. And so, but we, you know what
6:41
we're seeing is a lot of d&i conversation and a lot of
6:45
neurodiversity conversation for, for those forward-thinking
6:48
organizations, which has been pretty cool.
6:51
Yeah, I would agree with that. Focus in 2023 for from your all
6:56
perspective. You know, I think, I think what
6:58
Dee and I it's it's In a bit of a moment.
7:02
We're there's been a little bit of a shift so for instance,
7:07
probably in 2020. Dear friend Galen Emanuel, he's
7:12
a, he's a speaker and someone that does a lot of work in
7:15
culture and he reached out to us at the e1b to Collective and
7:21
pretty much said, look, you know, this is Pretty Outside the
7:23
Box, you know, I don't know what this would cost but can you and
7:27
your team, sit down for 20 hours and just give us a road map?
7:31
Wrap and a Playbook to, like the D&E.
7:33
And I roll from your point of view and like really make it
7:36
super detailed. And I'm finally starting to see
7:41
some of those themes that we, like outlined within that
7:44
report. If you will, that we kind of
7:47
created, I'm starting to finally see, so some of those themes
7:51
come true and the backstage of 2022 heading in 2023.
7:55
We are I think the role is finally starting to become a
8:00
senior. Senior level role, and not just
8:04
the title and, and yes, actually, you shouldn't and
8:07
capability in decision-making and bandwidth and and financial,
8:15
you know, the the finances that the organization's of putting
8:18
towards these roles actually, being able to have a team around
8:22
them, you know, I've even seen certain companies have an entire
8:27
dni division that separate from the HRT.
8:31
Team itself, which has been interesting.
8:34
So, I think it's finally hitting a mark in a moment.
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We're whether it's on the certification side, whether it's
8:42
on the role design side, whether it's the expectations of the
8:46
role itself, I'm starting to finally see it.
8:49
Take a little bit more of a take the next step past which are
8:55
definitely important, but past gender, and and race that I'm
9:00
finally starting to see Manifest into some other things like
9:05
leadership, rubrics and how decisions are made.
9:09
And, you know, obviously compensation has been something
9:13
that's been kind of picking up steam for the last 18 sin.
9:16
And you know, so things like that.
9:18
I don't know if you have any quick.
9:18
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you because I
9:22
think you know when before years years ago and Wendy I started
9:27
coming out people were just like hey I got to get a director Dai
9:30
and that there's got To get up someone in the position, right?
9:33
I got to give someone the title and I think now that's like you
9:37
said, I think that's switched a lot to.
9:39
It's not just about getting a title, getting someone into an
9:42
organization with that title. It's like, what are we doing?
9:45
Like, what initiatives are we putting in place?
9:48
Because it's it's you know, it's Equity REITs.
9:50
The fair treatment of all people to ensure full participation,
9:54
full advancement, you know, you know, everyone has that right to
9:59
those things. And so You know, I think people
10:03
are starting to understand the true definitions of inclusion
10:07
and diversity and equity and then how that shapes into
10:11
belonging and all that. And I think, you know, like you
10:14
said, organizations are creating a totally different division
10:17
around it because it is really, really important.
10:22
And I think the organizations that do that are are thriving,
10:26
you know, they're seeing an uptick in performance uptick in
10:30
Revenue. Do you know people want to work
10:34
in community grew up with? They want to see people that
10:36
look like them. They want to have opportunities.
10:40
They want to have conversations for advancement.
10:42
You know, people want to get into those conversations into
10:45
those divisions, right? I mean, I think a lot of the
10:48
younger generation, you know, they want to go where there's
10:51
change, right? They want to go where there's
10:53
some value. They want to go to a company
10:55
that stands for something. And so I think, when you can
10:58
have those things in place and have, It as part of your, your
11:04
EVP, then you know, that's going to separate you from from the
11:09
people that don't wear the people that don't really want to
11:11
know about our don't want to invest in it.
11:14
Then those are the people. Those are going to be the
11:15
companies that are really, really behind the curve.
11:18
And so, you know, I think it's an important topic and I know
11:21
you've had some guests talking about it and things like that.
11:24
And so I think it's just always important to keep talking about
11:27
it, but I think that the organizations that get it get
11:31
good people. Polenta, focus on it, and really
11:33
get granular with it, are seeing some success.
11:37
So, that's, that's a great thing, you know, for, for 2023
11:40
for sure. 100%. Well let's let's dive in a bit.
11:44
So you know, I know there was a few thoughts and topics, but
11:47
what as you think about 20, 22 what's, what were some of the
11:50
first things that came to mind and we'll dive in a bit Ash, I
11:54
just think the way people worked, right?
11:58
I think we dealt with, you know, still with coated.
12:01
You had a lot of things just coming out where, you know, just
12:05
the word of work is just shifted.
12:08
And I think that's that's been interesting with the dynamic of
12:12
the employee experience, right? You know, everyone was home,
12:16
everyone's been working from home typically and now, you
12:19
know, companies are shifting back to that hybrid work model
12:23
or that in the office work model.
12:26
And so, the employee experience has changed a lot, but I think
12:29
that was a difficult one. You know, I think you had some
12:33
speakers talking about mental health, you know, that's
12:35
something that, you know, I think everyone is noticed in
12:39
2022 and that's just, you know, I think part of covid and
12:43
working from home and not being around people enough.
12:45
But I think one of the main things to is leader and
12:48
management Effectiveness, you know, developing leaders
12:52
developing managers. You know I think that Flex work
12:56
work from home, that's always been something that's that's
12:59
tough for leaders who, you know? Are used to sitting with their
13:04
teams every day, you know, being able to, you know, turn around
13:08
and help someone. And I think that that huge
13:13
humanistic are human approach or employees Centric approach
13:18
changed a lot in 2022 because of just the different Dynamic so
13:25
2023. I think it's going to be really
13:27
critical for, you know, that that leadership.
13:31
Peace. Because there's going to be that
13:33
Dynamic now, coming back into the office, and doing some
13:36
things. And I think an employee
13:37
experience is going to be tricky to, because I think that's going
13:41
to be a big thing that companies are really going to need to
13:44
focus on and HR is going to really need to focus on because
13:49
employees, now they want to have a career path and that's hard to
13:52
see from sometimes, just working, you know, from there,
13:57
from there, you know, kitchen table on a laptop.
14:00
It's kind of hard for them too. To see that.
14:02
So I think you know those things are something in 2022.
14:06
That's going to go into 2023. That's going to be interesting
14:08
and good topics to talk about. Has there been anything in 2022
14:13
that That was confusing or bothersome for you.
14:20
Um, you know, I think well, I guess as far as like confusing,
14:25
um, or something that surprised you that that you thought would
14:30
would play out a little bit differently.
14:34
Um, you know, I just think the the future of way people work, I
14:37
thought would play it. You know, I think that, you
14:41
know, I think the strategy of, you know, towards the end of
14:44
2020 to people just wanting to everyone come in like everyone
14:49
start coming into work. Work, you know, I wrote start
14:51
coming into the office, I didn't get that.
14:54
You know, I didn't understand why companies were so eager to
14:57
get everyone back in so quickly so fast all the time and I think
15:03
it caused a lot of disruption between the organization's.
15:05
I mean, you know I saw it and I was in San Fran for a little
15:09
bit. I just saw massive people
15:10
leaving right? And and you get into all this
15:12
like, quiet, quitting and, and people ghosting and people
15:15
leaving, and people not wanting to do things.
15:17
And so I think just, what was Interesting to me is that, you
15:22
know, everyone's just so quick to just have everyone to start
15:27
doing something instead of really, just taking a step back
15:31
and thinking about what would work most efficiently for my
15:34
people and for our organization. And but, but, you know, I think
15:39
that's leadership really talking to people.
15:42
And I think we talked about this, I think a little bit, it's
15:45
just, you know, the dynamic HR leaders, and their space, and
15:50
And how they think about things and their initiatives from, you
15:53
know, doing more of an old school model than a new school
15:57
model. And so just some of those old
15:59
school practices, I just was really surprising to me.
16:02
I just really don't understand. And also probably six or seven
16:14
months ago when I started seeing a pickup, very similar to the
16:17
how you're describing where, you know, what?
16:20
Some of the things started, you know, some of the policies and
16:22
some of the restrictions started to become a bit more lenient, a
16:26
lot of organizations were to your point.
16:28
We're having a lot of people rush back into the office and
16:31
making that a very clear directive and not a nice to have
16:37
or a suggestion. And the first thing that I asked
16:40
everyone and I would love your two cents on this is if I had
16:44
actually had one leader, admit the truth.
16:46
My biggest thing I would say all the time is Are you personally
16:51
as he leader just sharing your preference and making that a
16:57
making that a directive like forcing your employees to come
17:00
in based off of your preference of seeing people in the office
17:04
seeing the energy. You personally want him to go
17:06
back to your office, you personally wanting to get out of
17:09
the house. Like, like, is this being driven
17:12
from, you know, the three to four c-suite Executives in the
17:15
company and with a board just sharing their own points of
17:18
views of how they think work should be.
17:20
Done or have you done a little bit of a hybrid approach?
17:23
Which is, you know, an employee's first approached,
17:25
very simply would be to have each and every team leader that
17:30
runs a team of six to twelve. And then the department leaders,
17:33
just go to your teams and run surveys and have internal
17:36
conversations. Look at that data and see, just
17:40
get a sense of where people are and what they're feeling and
17:43
what they desire and then and then beyond that use data, like,
17:48
like look at the data. Of from a productivity
17:51
perspective, keep you out, Kara, however you measure that across
17:55
all the all the functions and and and and you know, and Lanes
17:59
of the business and aside from that point, have we been less
18:05
productive? Let's call it once because I
18:08
think we all can agree. There was a bit of a
18:10
productivity hit when the pandemic first shocked the
18:12
world, what. But once we settled into this
18:15
remote world, I think it was like a six-month stretch.
18:17
So, look at the data theater. Okay.
18:20
How is the productivity there? Do we kind of get back to
18:22
normalcy? Or was it a bigger impact than a
18:28
larger? You know, level of productivity
18:31
when we were in the office versus once things settle down
18:33
and we were fully remote and then utilize the employee
18:36
feedback as well as the data to make the decision.
18:40
Don't just go for your own personal points of views.
18:43
And I had one leader actually admit and he said, I just like,
18:47
seeing everyone there seeing everyone smiles.
18:50
She Seeing everyone to hang out. I just personally want everyone
18:53
to come back, because that's what I want.
18:55
And I'm the CEO of the company and I'm making that decision.
18:58
And I said I could at least respect the fact that you're
19:01
openly admitting right person. Yes.
19:04
Yeah. That's a lot of what we see in
19:11
here, right? Is around.
19:12
Like I just miss people. I miss high-fiving, I miss you,
19:16
and people on the phones. It miss you.
19:17
People talk to people, but you're right, I think.
19:20
Is that is, is really reaching out to your people and having
19:23
that conversation because I think at the end of the day,
19:26
when you do that, that gets people involved.
19:30
Now, I feel like I'm a part of the decisions and so, you know,
19:35
as we're doing, you know, Audits and around our strategy, that's
19:38
what we help companies because companies are like, hey, I don't
19:41
even know how to get data on stuff like that, right?
19:43
Or I don't even know if this is something that would make sense
19:48
for us to do. And that's Where we come in and
19:51
we can really help and kind of get it down to the details of
19:55
that and really help companies get that information and just
19:59
kind of digest a lot of that because that's where they're
20:02
making a mistake. They're just assuming a
20:04
personality. Hey, I love hanging out with
20:07
people. I'm a social person and I like
20:10
all that stuff too. Don't get me wrong.
20:12
But I'm, I'm a leader that wants what's best for my employees
20:17
because all they're all might be different.
20:19
Hey, I might have employed. That loves coming in the office
20:22
will come in on a Monday, Wednesday and Thursday and and
20:26
love to just be able to collaborate and chatter.
20:28
I've got other employees that are like, hey, you know what, I
20:31
like being at home, I get my work done, you know, I can
20:36
perform in this environment, you know, I have the flexibility to
20:40
do that and then there could be some people that want to come in
20:42
every day. It just all depends, but if you
20:45
just go off what you want to do, then that's going to cause a lot
20:49
of anxiety. Xiety a lot of confusion, a lot
20:52
of hair don't have a voice within this organization.
20:54
They don't care about me, they're just doing what's best
20:57
for them. And that's not how to create a
21:01
good culture in a good environment and so.
21:05
So I do think that we have to get back to talking to people on
21:10
than asking those specific questions around.
21:13
What's good for them? Everyone can work in different
21:16
environments and that's okay. And we've seen where like you I
21:20
mean we've seen growth within organizations what you know my
21:25
company is has grown 20% every year and so and we have a lot of
21:30
and we're Global and we're remote and we're you know we're
21:33
doing all these different things and that's okay, you know but
21:37
but it's you have to really hire really good people and you have
21:42
to set some good standards in some good examples but you also
21:46
have to make sure everyone has a voice to, right?
21:50
And everyone can can talk through things and talk what's
21:53
on their mind and explain what's going on with them and explain
21:57
how they work. Because that's really important
22:01
and that's going to keep that's going to retain people.
22:04
If people feel like they're a part of something like this is a
22:09
great company for me but when they don't feel like that, hey I
22:12
got one foot out the door, this company doesn't care, I'm out of
22:16
here. You know, I'm gonna look for
22:18
some place that does and they'll find it because there's
22:20
organizations out there that are doing that and those are the
22:24
ones that are attracting really good talent and keeping them.
22:27
So it's something that He owes Executives and leaders have to
22:31
really think about as they're kind of going through this
22:33
process. No, 100% let me throw this at
22:37
you two and it's kind of in the same region of quiet quitting
22:41
and you being a recruiter for many years.
22:44
I want to kind of, get your honest opinion on this.
22:47
You know, how are you analyzing this?
22:50
This overall idea? You know, I've been a big
22:52
proponent with with my, you know, with my efforts and Beyond
22:56
brand. And just frankly, with a lot of
22:58
the things that I've done, Done in my career weird.
23:01
I've been trying to help recruiters and hiring managers
23:05
leaders that are going through a hiring face.
23:09
I've been trying to get them to see the value and being
23:13
incredibly incredibly incredibly transparent around.
23:18
Very, very nuanced and small details of a department of their
23:24
own leadership style of of the departmental and team.
23:29
No. Rooms and let me kind of get
23:31
detailed. And example base what I mean by
23:33
that? Like if you are like for
23:37
example, one of the biggest issues connected to quiet,
23:41
quitting was the lack of focus and preparation or
23:45
Communications, or support around career mapping an
23:48
opportunity. Right.
23:50
A lot of people felt that there were no opportunities for them.
23:54
No one came to them proactively and shared any next steps.
23:57
And, you know, maps and The ID. And that's another thing to a
24:01
lot of people think IDP plans are - I actually learned from
24:05
Keith razi that IDP plans are positive, right?
24:08
We are organizations, should spend a lot of time, helping an
24:13
employee. Co-create an IDP plan or from
24:16
the lens of their next steps in their career over the five year,
24:20
three year, 18-month window. Like what elements of
24:23
development do I need to take and how can you as a leader
24:26
support me in that to get me to this next?
24:29
Valerie marker getting to this next title, get into this next
24:32
responsibility. And so to get back to the point
24:35
what I've always pushed for a lot of companies to think about
24:38
is being like, hey, career mapping as an example, you as a
24:43
leader in the marketing department, if you're hiring 7
24:46
to 12, people to join your department.
24:49
You and my personal opinion, one of the first questions you
24:53
should ask during the interview or one of the first pieces of
24:56
information that you share proactively should be like, hey,
24:59
What does your next five to seven?
25:02
Three to five 18 months to 3 years look like for you
25:06
professionally? Like what do you actually want?
25:09
And where do you actually want to be and whatever answer they
25:13
give you. I think it is a responsibility
25:15
of every organization and every recruiter to be incredibly
25:18
honest and say look based off today to you gave me.
25:21
Yes, that is actually possible. Here's at a very tangible level
25:25
of How It's Possible, and, and they're being completely honest.
25:29
Versus what I think a lot of companies do is they give you a
25:33
very broad or cliche or aspirational answer when they
25:38
know operationally behind the scenes, there will not be an
25:42
opportunity for at least, a two to three year window of time.
25:46
Not because they don't want it to be because that's not good.
25:48
Operational roadmap is going to go.
25:52
So what are your thoughts on, you know, companies learning
25:55
during the recruiting process to be very transparent?
25:59
It around little Nuance micro are elements of career mapping
26:04
and how decisions are made and my communication style as a
26:08
leader, what are your thoughts around?
26:09
Things like that as a potential quiet quitting?
26:12
Yeah, yeah, I under percent agree.
26:14
I think you know, the biggest thing that I learned in quiet
26:17
quitting was they just they're not telling me anything.
26:20
They don't tell many roadmap. They don't give me
26:21
opportunities. Same similar like what you were
26:23
saying and I think that you are right leaders have to be very
26:28
transparent and You could, you know, you could be a CHR.
26:31
Oh, you know, I think it, you know, it starts to filter down
26:34
to, you know, sales leaders whoever is going to be in that
26:37
position. I think those leaders sometimes
26:39
struggle with the communication part, you know, I think that
26:43
when you are looking for leaders, I you know, and my
26:48
position. And when I'm always looking to
26:50
hire people, I almost want to have A coach almost like similar
26:56
to a career coach almost. Right.
26:59
So someone who understands how to position and connect with
27:05
people in a way that is more open uses.
27:11
Different language, you know, asks, different styles of
27:15
questions, more more forward-thinking size of
27:19
questions. Like, you know, what are you
27:21
passionate about? What would you, what would you
27:25
like to do with your career? You know, like what kind, what
27:32
kind of activities do you like to do?
27:35
You know what, piques your interest?
27:38
What wakes you up every day and get you going like what makes
27:42
you feel good every day when you come into work or get up for
27:45
work, you know you just really want to understand that person.
27:50
It really dive in with them. And then I always ask the
27:54
question, like, what is success look like to you?
27:58
Because it looks different to me and I'm sure looks different to
28:01
a lot of people out there might look similar to me, but it might
28:03
look different. But what does it look like to
28:05
you? You know, is that a leadership
28:07
role? Is that just a sales role where
28:09
you just want to be you know, doing that?
28:11
Is that a consultative role? Is that an operations?
28:14
Like you know what, a success look like to you.
28:17
And then I think then you can create some opportunities and
28:23
Some career options that align with what they're telling you
28:28
and then you know, hopefully you can have some different routes
28:32
for them, right. I mean, you know, I think so
28:35
many companies like they just love to have employees boxed in
28:39
and they want to kind of keep them doing just these certain
28:41
things every day, because this is what we got to do to get
28:44
done. But how about we open that box
28:47
up and kind of give them some more, you know, diverse options.
28:52
Some other things that they Kind of get into and and see what the
28:57
best career fit is for them. And so I think it just really
29:01
comes down to the communication, the openness, you know, we
29:05
talked about a lot being vulnerable, right?
29:07
Just just, hey, it's okay to ask someone.
29:09
What are you passionate about? That's okay, you know, and
29:14
that's an okay question to ask somebody and what success looks
29:17
like and what gets you up every day?
29:19
Those are OK questions because you're really going to
29:21
understand that employee. So, Much more than you would.
29:25
If you are just doing an old-school model of just you
29:28
know, the regular mundane kind of basic questions just to keep
29:33
someone in a particular seat all the time.
29:38
And I think that's where, you know, that's what makes a
29:40
difference. Kind of finding that coach, that
29:44
career person employee type coach personality, that can
29:48
really get them out. And I know we've talked about
29:50
coaching in the pasok Elite Sports and all that kind of
29:53
stuff. And so, you know, that's that's
29:55
where that really comes into play, a lot of time.
29:58
So I think organizations just have to be really mindful of
30:02
that as they're looking to hire people and then as their
30:05
training, their maybe their managers, maybe get their
30:08
managers on some career coaching, develop their people
30:11
to be able to have those good conversations.
30:14
There is nothing wrong with helping your people learn.
30:17
If you are not learning, then you just not living, right?
30:19
So I think it is, okay, if you have leaders that don't really
30:22
understand How to communicate those or train them, get them,
30:25
maybe a class that they can go to you know, where they can
30:29
learn to open up communication a little bit more learn to
30:32
effectively communicate with all different types of backgrounds
30:35
and all different types of people and that's okay to do but
30:39
provide those programs for people.
30:41
And that's some things that, you know, you just have to, you have
30:44
to spend the money to do those things, but that, but that is
30:47
going to make a huge impact and it might not be, you know, two
30:50
hundred percent growth yet, but it could be That that is going
30:55
to build some sustainable success for your organization.
30:58
And I think that's what's key, you know, and and I agree with
31:03
everything you're saying and I'll be even add to say, you
31:05
know, as we look into 2023, I think for the first six months
31:11
of the year, I think the workforce is going to be very I
31:15
don't want to use the word one Edge but very we're in a weird
31:20
spot. Because here's what's happening,
31:21
right? There's a lot of companies.
31:23
That are laying people off doing hiring freezes and the
31:28
employees. In these companies that were not
31:30
laid off their hearing this in the news or seeing this within
31:34
their own companies. And, but, but it doesn't not
31:38
does not necessarily mean that they are not one of those quiet
31:42
quitting employees, meaning does not mean that they're not happy.
31:46
What it means is they're being strategically smart where they
31:49
have mortgages kids bills to pay.
31:52
And it's a Dynamic in file with me if you can because I want to
31:55
make sure this makes sense. Yeah, on one element
31:58
organizations, if they've done a layoff.
32:01
If they've done a hiring freeze and cash fries, whatever the
32:03
case is going to be they pretty much said a message to their to
32:07
the people that are still there. We don't we need you.
32:11
You're here for a reason, you need to stay and we support you
32:15
in, appreciate you. Now, on the flip side, the
32:18
employees that have not been laid off.
32:21
They also know that message. They understand that message.
32:23
Message. But at the same time since they
32:25
may still feel like there's some things missing they may go on
32:30
autopilot, right? So when the company needs to
32:35
sustain a level of productivity, even after a layoff period of
32:39
let's say five ten fifteen percent of their of their of
32:42
their employees. They still want to reach a
32:45
certain level of productivity. They don't want to have a layoff
32:49
or then have a 30 40, 50 percent drop off and productivity in
32:52
Revenue that year they do Don't let this happen in 2023 there,
32:56
thinking that the people that they've decided to keep can at
32:59
least at a bare minimum, keep us at even, right?
33:02
At least, keep it up at a level of productivity and to the world
33:05
figures itself out. And then again on the other
33:09
side, the employees know these variables.
33:12
And again, they still may not be happy.
33:13
So, they're like, you know what? I'm gonna go on, autopilot, I
33:16
don't want to leave this company, because it looks kind
33:18
of dangerous out there as a candidate.
33:22
So, I say all that. To say and would love your two
33:24
cents on this. I believe it's incredibly
33:27
important right now is the development and training of your
33:31
leaders at those lower level to mid-level managerial levels
33:36
where they're overseeing teams of 3 5 7 12.
33:40
Because right now, at least for the next six months.
33:44
I've been big on either train them or make a really quick
33:50
shift to creating like a little bit of a hybrid.
33:53
We're at the top of a department or a team, you have a subject
33:57
matter expert leader. You have a project management
34:00
base leader, you have a technical and operational type
34:03
leader. And then you had a people leader
34:06
that set the old enough to be dangerous for that department.
34:10
Obviously, you could come to that individual for any ideas,
34:12
thoughts, inside, and Direction, but their main priority is to
34:17
have those career mapping conversations to hold those.
34:20
You know, you know, employee experience-based 101.
34:23
Conversations to understand where you know Sarah and Andrew
34:28
are a little bit upset around a workflow or an expectation and
34:32
they take that data and they pass a date on to the, to the
34:36
fellow operational leader. So, I don't know, this is a
34:39
weird idea. I've been playing with weird
34:42
dreams, can have to kind of like, kind of like as a sports
34:46
reference for anyone listening. If you remember, when Peyton
34:49
Manning and Steve McNair won the MVP in the same year.
34:53
If Kind of knows their football, kind of like a co-mvp,
34:56
co-leadership type structure in a team where you have one that's
35:00
operational technical subject matter based and they have
35:04
another that's fully human base. That's just extracting data to
35:08
stay ahead of the game. Around these quiet quitting
35:11
engagement type elements. What are your thoughts on that
35:13
whole rant there? Yeah yeah no I agree.
35:17
I think it's really important, you know, for leaders to, you
35:22
know, have Of that really not just like reader to employee,
35:29
but we're talking more of like a person-to-person type approach.
35:33
Right. So so I really need to
35:36
understand you as a person. You know, I respect you, you
35:41
know, being more vulnerable being more authentic, I think
35:44
it's going to be very, very important because you're going
35:48
to need to be able to communicate that message down to
35:51
your team's because like you said, When you have a lot of
35:54
organizational change when you have layouts, when you have
35:57
people leaving, when you have people that are just like, Hey,
36:01
we're dropping Force, we're letting off, you know, a
36:05
thousand employees. Well, you really have to have
36:09
someone that can communicate that message, right?
36:11
And be open about it too, right? So, just let people know.
36:16
I think people are so afraid to let people know ahead of time
36:19
before they do something. I think it creates a lot less
36:23
anxiety. E, if people understand what's
36:25
going on and understand what's going to happen.
36:28
Because if you, if you do all that, and don't let people know.
36:33
Now, you're getting that which which I've been with companies
36:36
and, and like you said, I mean, I'm just I'm just pressing
36:40
buttons, Mana fatigues. I don't know what's going on and
36:44
I'm just kind of going through the motions, but if someone
36:46
would have came to me and said, Hey, listen Trevor, here's what
36:49
we're doing. Here's where we're at.
36:52
Here's the reasons why we're making.
36:53
In this decision, you know, we want to keep you, but but now we
36:57
got to do a different approach to communication.
36:59
Styles, got to be a person-to-person approach
37:01
because that is going to get the buy-in from, from your team,
37:05
right? When you can be more authentic,
37:08
more vulnerable, You're acting with purpose.
37:12
You know, I think a big thing and I've, you know, I've talked
37:16
about this a lot with, with conversation, with people is
37:19
being showing empathy, right? You know what happened?
37:23
To just be empathetic around what people are going through.
37:27
You know, those are, those are big decisions to make, like you
37:30
said, people have mortgages families, you know, they, you
37:33
know, want to do things within their own lives and they have
37:36
certain Lifestyles that they want to keep up with.
37:39
But in showing that you care and respect your employees and their
37:43
well-being, you know, is going to be huge for leaders and then
37:47
like, you know, I think a lot of what I learned in leadership
37:52
around these crazy times. I was just being flexible with
37:54
people, you know just being adaptive like hey that's okay.
37:58
Hey you can't come in today. Perfect work from home, you
38:01
know, got to take care of your family member.
38:03
That's okay. You know, we'll get you deciding
38:07
that later but really they're gonna leaders are going to have
38:11
to be able to be not only a leader.
38:15
But a person, a human being again because that's where it's
38:19
going to be really impactful for your team's to see that.
38:23
You know, it's not just smoking mirrors.
38:25
This is actually someone that really cares about, me really is
38:29
invested in me and I'm going to invest in them and I think like,
38:35
like you said, I think you've been playing around, you know,
38:37
having that type of Coach you know, person in there to really
38:42
have those conversations is really important but train your
38:45
leaders to have those conversations to you know and
38:49
and those are the leadership styles that you need to have
38:52
going forward. These times you got to have
38:55
open-minded people Centric people that really care and I
38:58
really can have good conversations.
39:00
That doesn't mean that you're going to be your friend all day
39:03
and they need to be your best friend and hang out, it's just
39:05
means that they do understand what you're going through.
39:08
We are human beings, we are people things come out, that's
39:11
okay. We all deal with some the same
39:13
fears and frustrations and all that.
39:15
That's okay too. But how do we drive momentum to
39:18
move forward? You know, and how do we work on
39:20
that and I think that's going to be more impactful.
39:23
For leaders now than those leaders that you sit back kind
39:27
of, you know, they don't really want to talk to their teams.
39:29
They don't really want to communicate anything, you know,
39:32
they're keeping things, you know, they're keeping their
39:34
cards close to their best. They're, you know, they just
39:37
don't want to be open about anything.
39:40
That's where, you know, 2023 and Beyond.
39:42
That's where there's going to be a lot of failure in that type of
39:45
model. So, No 100% 100%.
39:50
Well, let's look into 2023 here. Before we wrap, you know what?
39:54
What do you think you're going to be, you know, some core
39:56
themes, you know, I think, you know, we've kind of touched on
40:00
one, which is being you know, being little bit more strategic
40:02
around the quiet quitting. I think you know, the developed,
40:06
the development of those lower ends of mid-tier management.
40:12
You know, something I've been talking a lot about as well, has
40:15
been, you know, the, the HR, Actually be pretty strategic and
40:19
thoughtful in the 2023 world. You know, we talked about the
40:22
denial leader and how that rule is going to look.
40:24
But what are any other themes or thought you had that are going
40:28
to be incredibly important for companies and laser in on during
40:32
the first couple quarters of this year?
40:34
Yeah I think one big thing important and what you know my
40:37
organization and our team is really talked about.
40:40
Is that employee experience. That is something that has come
40:44
up a lot and we've got really good data around.
40:47
Around how the employee experience helps Drive revenue
40:52
and helps Drive certain indicators.
40:55
And when you can take care of your employees and lead them and
40:59
direct them in the right way that you will see significant
41:05
growth in your business. And I'm talking, you know, 70 to
41:10
90%, you know, growth when those when those employees feel good
41:15
about what they're doing. You know, that is going to be a
41:20
huge measure for organizations in 2023 to really go off of.
41:26
And so, you know, we found that, you know, the old way of HR
41:31
doesn't work anymore, you know where you've got your HR sets,
41:36
the strategy, they design how it works benchmarks, or just
41:41
implementing it and measuring the compliance.
41:44
And they may do some tweaks to it, right?
41:47
So, we found that what really works, and what resonates really
41:51
well is reverse that, right? Like, so, so study like the,
41:56
who, what, where, and why of the behavior?
41:59
And involve more people in that, right involve shareholders,
42:02
stakeholders CHR owns like get everyone involved in.
42:07
Okay, what do we need to do? Where are we going?
42:10
Why is this Behavior happening? And then and then create like
42:14
what works like get experiences? Understand the pain, the joy of
42:19
what you're trying to do and then developing tests that
42:21
prototype and the building strategies and ways of work with
42:26
that and then continue to test and improve that.
42:30
So so if you can figure out why you're doing things or what we
42:34
gave you is you have that you want to change start there and
42:37
then work on working you know and then continuously keep
42:41
testing it and modeling it and that's what I find is really
42:46
important with what our organization Ation helps
42:48
companies with is we help you through that process, right?
42:53
We help you identify, you know, where your shortcomings are,
42:58
what behaviors are doing, that might not be so successful and
43:01
then we help you create a plan that works or develop some
43:05
things that work for you and then you can create that you can
43:09
you can run with those strategies and then throughout
43:12
that program and throughout our program, in our support with
43:14
you. Now you can see ways of it
43:16
working and Continue and testing things and every single year we
43:21
you know we can help you do their different survey models
43:24
because you got to understand what matters first and then and
43:28
then it's reimagine new ways of operating and then you model and
43:32
test that new and see what works and then you act in create and
43:34
keep doing that because it's always evolving work, HR
43:39
companies they're always evolving at night.
43:43
Every year is going to be the same.
43:45
Not every son situation is going.
43:47
To be the same and the more you can think about that and try to
43:52
just think through those things and just be ahead and just work
43:55
on that and develop those things, and come with a
43:59
strategic plan, and get more people involved in those
44:02
conversations then you're going to see some really good success
44:06
in some uptake. And so, you know, I want that
44:10
for everybody, you know, I want people to see success of want
44:14
employees to feel better with where they're at at work.
44:17
Um, where they're going in their careers.
44:20
And I want to see HR departments to feel good and have a plan and
44:25
and and you know, and just be open and be open to new ideas
44:30
and learn and develop and continue that development
44:35
because that's going to help just and I think that employee
44:39
experience is going to be super critical because there's people
44:42
doing side hustles, there's people doing all sorts of things
44:44
that they can make revenue on looking for companies to Really
44:47
dig down and make sure that they've got good.
44:51
HR practices, some really good internal practices to make their
44:56
employees happy and attract people to come to work.
44:58
They're like, hey, I don't want to drive Uber anymore.
45:01
I want to come to company XYZ because I'm seeing what they're
45:05
doing under. I love their branding, I
45:08
understand where they're at the market, they've got good plans
45:12
in place and they want to grow and they want to develop and I'm
45:16
seeing this. It, I want to be a part of
45:18
something like that and that's why, I think organizations have
45:21
to really work on instead of worrying about what people are
45:25
doing, so many things that people are doing.
45:27
Don't worry about side, hustles, don't worry about all that.
45:29
Fix what you got going on. Change the way you think.
45:33
And you know, I support that's what like organizations like us
45:36
are here to support you, with that wears you to consult you
45:39
with that, we're your go to, for those type of things.
45:42
So we can help analyze and get data for you to understand all
45:45
these things. And then create a plan and
45:47
strategy. Atta G for you.
45:48
So then that way you can, you can beam that best place to work
45:53
in the market. You can be, you know, a great
45:56
place where, you know, I'm driving town.
45:59
I'm keeping Talent. We're having good conversations
46:02
where open with our dialogue or managers are learning in our
46:05
leaders are learning. We're talking through things for
46:07
collaborative and that's where people want to work at the end
46:10
of the day. So I think those things are
46:12
really, really important. Couldn't agree more and I
46:17
appreciate you coming on to this this episode and my final
46:20
thoughts would would just be a, you know, a build on that which
46:24
is, you know, I think any and all HR leaders are people
46:28
leaders or operational leaders or Founders or CEOs listening.
46:32
I think also attack, you know, attack your Learning and
46:36
Development, attack your new, your new strategies, from an
46:40
employee experience perspective from like a three, to four
46:44
month. A three to four-month, roadmap
46:47
what I mean by that is start with the start with the
46:50
hypothesis. Start with an idea, put some new
46:54
things in place, get the data from your employees, get the
46:58
data from from any and all ways of how you measure things.
47:02
And then three to four months later, turn back around and say,
47:05
how did this work? How are things different?
47:07
How can we make adjustments? How can we make shifts?
47:10
I think too many companies and you see a lot of this you know
47:14
this. Raishin - it was product teams,
47:17
right? You lot of this with engineering
47:19
team to product teams where they're not, they're not married
47:23
to a strategy or or you know, or a function or a feature.
47:30
They're very much willing to change on a dime every every two
47:36
to four months based off of the user experience, based off of
47:39
the feedback and I think a lot more people teams and leaders of
47:43
people teeth need to do that, right?
47:45
Yeah, utilize organizations, like yours, learn develop grow,
47:51
put some things in place but then pick your head up every 3
47:54
to 4 months and do a full audit of what you did.
47:57
What's working, what's not working?
47:59
How our employees really appreciating, what you put in
48:03
place or not? Appreciating it and then make
48:05
some more adjustments. Pick your head back up in three
48:08
to four months again and I just think if you keep iterating on
48:11
that, it will show your people that you're not messing around
48:13
and that you're focused and engaged.
48:15
It would be really good for your business because you're keeping
48:18
things fresh and Innovative and focused on on the most important
48:22
things and that's all for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have 100%
48:27
agree with you and that is. And that's, it's that continuous
48:31
development, right? And that continuous learning.
48:33
And that's where, you know, a lot of good people.
48:36
That's what that's where they want to work, right?
48:38
That's the organization's. They want to work for are really
48:41
wanting to learn. They understand where they have
48:44
their self aware. The understand, they're not
48:46
perfect. And nope.
48:48
Corporation is no company. Is, there's a lot of good
48:52
companies, but no company is perfect, right?
48:54
And so, you know, that self-awareness to understand,
48:56
hey, we have some opportunity here and this is something that
48:58
we should reach out to and see. And so, and get some audit, and
49:02
get some data on. And that's, you know, where we
49:04
can come in and support and do that audit, and then can't keep
49:07
working with companies and organizations throughout that
49:09
process. But yeah, it's going to contain.
49:12
It has to be that continuous mindset that That growth mindset
49:17
at all times and being very humble with it too.
49:22
And then taking a lot of ego out of things and just being humble
49:25
and understanding like hey we have things to work on and
49:27
that's okay. But I want to work for an
49:30
organization like that. That's the reason why I you
49:32
know, I love the organization I work for but I think smart
49:35
people are really good. People want to work for
49:39
organizations that are always in that mindset and always wanting
49:42
to grow wanting to learn and wanting to talk.
49:45
And Wanting to engage, and collaborate and have those type
49:48
of systems in place. So, so thank you so much for the
49:51
time and I really appreciate it. It's been great and, and I know
49:55
that if anyone needs support, please feel free to reach out to
49:59
me. But I, you know, I want to thank
50:01
you, just, for the time this has been, this has been amazing.
50:03
So, I appreciate that. Sarah, and we'll talk very soon.
50:08
Alright. Sounds good.
50:09
Thank you so much. Thank you.
50:05
I appreciate that. Sarah, and we'll talk very soon.
50:08
Alright. Sounds good.
50:09
Thank you so much. Thank you.