Latest / Identity at the Center / #208 - Identiverse 2023 Preview with Andi Hindle

Transcript

#208 - Identiverse 2023 Preview with Andi Hindle · Identity at the Center

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  This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
• 0:08
  am this is the go-to podcast. So if you're a beginner or an
• 0:14
  expert or anyone in between you've found your new home
• 0:18
  welcome to Identity at the center now your host Jim
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  McDonald and Jeff Steadman Welcome to the identity of the
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  center podcast. I'm Jeff.
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  And this is my co-host, Andy. Hi Andy.
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  I Jeff. I seem to have been upgraded to
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  co-host. That's rather exciting.
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  Yeah, we have a guest spot for you today.
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  Jim is on assignment as we like, to say in the business.
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  So we're fortunate to have you back here.
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  Welcome back to the show. Andy, thank you.
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  It's always a pleasure to be on. So, people who aren't familiar
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  with Andy handle, he is the identity verse conference chair.
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  He's also a board member with Kent, our initiative board
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  member with ID Pro and also So people may not know this.
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  A real live identity and access management consulting by way of
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  hindle Consulting, who's joining us all the way from England.
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  So, thank you so much for being part of this conversation today.
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  No, that's a pleasure, and if you listen carefully, you can
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  tell that I'm a long way away, right?
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  That's the miracle of modern audio.
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  It is crazy. So you're coming from England
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  and I'm going to be in London, in June to watch the Cubs play,
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  the Cardinals and to go to a pink concert.
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  I'm not much of a baseball. Fan.
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  I'm not much of a pink fan but I'm going for the story and as a
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  makeup for my trip which was cut off for canceled, really from
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  the pandemic back in 2020. I'm going to be staying
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  downtown. I don't know if that's what one
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  calls it, but I'll be in London City proper and we're going to
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  try to get together hopefully for tea or dinner or something.
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  He where should we go t-west go? Well there's lots and lots of
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  stuff to see, right? Have you been sleepin to the
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  teakettle so if we get, no, I No, I've been to Heathrow and
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  then I've been to Framingham and Windsor, that's it.
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  Well, the best places. So yeah, so look if you if you
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  wanted to do kind of the quintessential, you know,
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  English high tea experience which always makes me laugh
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  because literally Nobody Does that.
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  But if you did want to do it I would suggest you know there are
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  some there are some super famous places to go right.
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  There's the rates I guess which is classic nice claridge's which
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  is classic. So there are definitely some
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  Some options. And yeah if you're if you're
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  around let me know what dates and we'll we'll try and get
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  together and do something fun. Yeah, that'll be pretty cool.
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  So looking forward to that, I'm also looking forward to
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  identifiers which is coming up and that's really kind of the
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  reason that we're having this conversation today.
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  I guess, for those who aren't familiar with identify verse,
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  what is it? What is it?
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  That's a good question. Is this like a meta verse you
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  know, are we in the VR, what's going on here?
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  So, you know, identify this has been around now for about 14
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  years, I guess this year started out as a conference focused
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  Cific Cleon Cloud identity. In fact, it used to be called
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  Cloud, identity Summit, and then it grew over the years.
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  And we realized I want to say, like five six years ago, that it
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  was, it was more than just Cloud identity, right?
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  And so, we renamed the thing to identify verse and, and so
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  that's that's what it is, right. It's an annual conference and
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  trade show. So, so we've got a big show
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  floor as well, and lots of sponsors that really focuses on
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  Digital identity in its broadest sense.
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  And so we've got lots of material that's aimed at, you
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  know, your technical digital identity, professional rates,
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  authorization authentication provisioning, use a life cycle
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  AGA, like all of those wonderful things we evidently touch on
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  the, the, to sort of big adjacent Industries and so, that
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  would be cybersecurity where there's some overlap and
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  privacy, right? Where there's some, some evident
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  intersection as well. And everyone I suspect is
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  familiar with several iterations of what I think was originally
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  Eve, mailers, quote-unquote, Venn diagram, that kind of shows
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  those those three things together, right?
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  Identity security, and privacy, or privacy.
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  For those of you that like the English pronunciation from the
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  English roots and then what we started to do, Little bit over
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  the last couple of years and which I think will be an
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  increasing Trend as an addition to, that materials are not
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  replacing it or changing it. But just adding along the side
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  of it is some slightly more business-focused material rate.
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  So one of the one of the questions that comes up a lot is
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  you know look I'm running on a Downy project in a large
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  business. It's really hard to get budget,
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  it's really hard to get funding. It's really hard to defend the
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  size team that I need. It's really hard to get the
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  investment in professional development that I need.
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  Like why is that? And in my view and I think other
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  people share this perspective, part of the problem at least is
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  that helping the business? Understand what the value to the
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  business is is a little tricky and it quite often has come down
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  to how do I protect things right and so and yet we all know in
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  the identity industry that it's about a lot more than that.
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  A lot of cases it's about how do I make this project happen?
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  How do I make the experience for customers better?
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  Why protect my customers better, which is a value, add to the
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  customer, right? Whether that's a consumer or,
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  you know, part of my supply chain or whatever it might be,
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  that is starting to change. And so, I think there's a role
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  for a donor verse to play Beyond, just that sort of core
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  material that we've had for a long time in in helping the
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  business side of the, the equation to kind of understand
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  what it is that we do and why that's important to them.
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  And for me I think that starts with helping digital identity
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  professionals, explain what it is that we do, you know?
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  And then over time hopefully starting to get some more of the
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  business owners project managers project leads, you know, digital
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  identity, sorry, digital transformation directors.
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  Those kinds of folks to come along and kind of get a real
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  understanding, okay? This is how this helps, you
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  know, fundamentally Drive the business forwards.
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  I love that idea. Because they think this is an
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  area that a lot of identity folks really need help with is
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  articulating to non-identity people.
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  What the hell do we do, right? Why is it important?
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  You know, why does it cost so much money?
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  Why do we need so many people to do this identity thing and to do
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  it right? And I'm happy to see that.
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  Yeah, it's interesting. You know, it's something we've
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  touched on on and off over the years at the conference and it's
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  absolutely I'm a bigger challenge.
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  It's actually very, very similar to what happened.
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  I think in in the cybersecurity industry, a while back, you
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  know, it took a little time but you know, eventually
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  cybersecurity became a thing that had a seat at the, you
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  know, at the sea level and it's a topic that gets talked about
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  in boardrooms, you know, at that level as well privacy over the
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  last few years has been through that very much that same
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  Journey, mostly not Entirely, but mostly probably driven by
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  some of the regulatory landscape changes.
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  But again, you know, you look at the way that Apple approaches
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  privacy and data standard example.
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  But there are absolutely others and it's becoming a USP, right?
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  It's a proposition to the customer and say, look, we look
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  after your dad. Now I don't want to get into a
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  conversation about whether that's true or not, right?
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  But from a pure sales perspective and for those of you
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  who can't watching as it were, Jeff is laughing.
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  Hysterically in the background, I said that but You know, it's
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  it's clearly become a thing that certain companies choose to kind
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  of compete around. And so I think, you know, we're
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  probably at the beginning of that Journey for identity and in
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  fact, one of the things that we've got that identity versus
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  is a friend and colleague of mine and I know he's been on the
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  show a few times more than a few times.
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  I think Jeff. Ian Glaser is going to do a
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  panel with a couple of other folks to talk exactly about has
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  it time that we had a sea level. Roll that identity kind of rolls
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  up to and there are pros and cons to that, to that argument,
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  right? But I think having the
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  conversation is, you know, the fact that we're even even a
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  point of having the conversation, says an awful lot
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  about, you know, kind of where the industry is today and where
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  it needs to get to tomorrow. Yeah, Ian's awesome.
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  He's like, such a good speaker. I'm, I'm interested to see if
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  this concept of this c-level executive level identity person.
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  I think the most important thing.
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  That we need to do around this is to make sure that it's
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  branded appropriately. What do we call it, right?
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  Is it Chief digital identity officer?
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  Can we have like a cool nickname like CDO, like C-3PO?
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  Like, that's the most important thing that we've got to really
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  solve. It doesn't matter what they do,
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  as long as the name is cool. It's the way I feel.
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  Yes, it's just occurring to me that if you drop the officer off
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  and you just make it Chief identity.
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  Then you have said, answer, it's important.
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  We've got to have, we've got to have good.
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  In here. Yes.
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  You know, I think the other thing too is, so the conference
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  begins May 30th and, you know, and you've been really a great
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  friend for the show. You're the reason we have a
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  discount code for people to, you know, who are listening to this
• 9:46
  to be able to get a discount to go.
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  So for those who aren't familiar, right?
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  We've got 20% discount code off your identify, this reservation
• 9:53
  that registration easy for me to say the code will be in our show
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  notes, but I'll say it here as well.
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  ID V Dash icen 23, it gets 20% off.
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  We've got the early bird is still going on until I believe
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  April 27th. So there's just a little bit of
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  time left. You want to take advantage of
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  the last early bird discount but hopefully people can combine
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  that with our discount code. But seriously man, thank you so
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  much for you know, helping us. Get that in place for listeners.
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  Hopefully we've got, you know, some people who be able to take
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  advantage of it and be able to attend in in Vegas with us.
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  Yeah, no. It's a real pleasure and look,
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  you know, I'm obviously biased right?
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  Like I've been involved with the show.
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  It's my show, obviously Andres your and up paying found it
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  years ago and then CRA to could over just before the show last
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  year, but I've been involved with it for a long time.
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  Like I say, I'm evidently biased but I really think that people
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  get an awful lot out of it from a professional standpoint and
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  so, you know, anything that I can do to help that sort of
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  professional development Journey.
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  I'm I'm happy to do, right, like I've gotten a lot, Out of the
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  industry. And so to the extent that I can
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  help, but stuff back, I'm delighted to do it.
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  It's very cool. And so I booked my flight a
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  couple days ago, I'll be there, the show will be there were
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  planning on doing some recording.
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  I think we're all starting to line up, maybe some guests.
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  So there's some interesting things that were working on
• 11:20
  that. I don't think we're quite ready
• 11:21
  to get it out there in the public yet.
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  But some ideas we've got. We'll see what comes through.
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  You mentioned the new ownership CRA.
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  I was not able to attend. Last year.
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  I was in a middle of a move sort of across the country kind of
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  sort of and I think Jim was in the same same boat.
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  So I guess. Are there any noticeable
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  differences between the new ownership CRA versus Ping when
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  it came to the conference before?
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  Because one of the things that I think I always felt about this
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  conference was one, it's a great conference.
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  Definitely one of the ones you should be attending if you need
• 11:53
  any space, but he also felt like when it was owned by ping.
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  They did a really good job of being really inclusive for a lot
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  of identity talk competitors. You know, vendors wasn't sure it
• 12:05
  was a pink conference, but it didn't feel like I was going to
• 12:07
  a pink conference. It felt like, Was going to and
• 12:10
  identity conference has there been any noticeable differences
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  or what should I expect? Is my first time going to a CRA
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  run. I dunno.
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  Verse compared to the last one that was probably had a couple
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  years ago. Yeah, that's a.
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  That's a really interesting question Jeff.
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  And I reminds me, I think we talked about this, you know, a
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  few podcast episodes back. But the conference was always
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  always, you know, when it was originally Only set up.
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  And the way it's always been wrong has been as an industry
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  conference. And in fact I worked for paying
• 12:45
  a long time ago, but my involvement with the conference
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  in the role that a time that I've been in for gosh, eight
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  years now, actually has not been as an employee either of paying,
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  or in fact to CRA, right? So, I do this work externally
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  and that helps to some extent for us to kind of keep the
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  agenda that's as clean as we reasonably can.
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  Can write. And in fact, we've got a fairly
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  rigorous process. I don't want to go so far as to
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  say, well, I can academic conference because we're really
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  not, right? There's a whole much much deeper
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  sort of set of things that goes around the, the academic
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  conferences, but we do have a process of reviewing material
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  that comes in through, call for presentations and then reviewing
• 13:31
  that material before it gets published.
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  We've got a whole content committee.
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  A number of whom have been on board for a while.
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  That you know, we refresh that on a on an ongoing basis as well
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  partly because you know frankly people do it for a few years and
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  they're like I'm done thank you very much.
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  But you know we also have new voices coming up.
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  We have new technologies emerging.
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  We have new markets to talk about so it's always been run
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  that way and you know I I sort of hesitate to answer the
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  question that you've asked as bluntly as I'm going to the
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  question, you know, the initial question was, is anything change
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  and kind of the Answer is no right and deliberately.
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  So in fact, as you said, you know, the acquisition CRA made
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  last year was announced. I want to say in December
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  January in the run-up to the conference in June and then
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  Andre and CRA CEO. A Dogma Tony actually stood on
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  stage and had a conversation in front of everybody in the
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  audience and kind of you know, helped everybody understand sort
• 14:37
  of what the future was going to look like.
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  So we really haven't changed very much.
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  In terms of the basics of the event rate, your gender is still
• 14:45
  constructed the same way, the Expo floor still looks like Expo
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  floor. The quality of the overall
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  experience, which is something that's always been a focus for
• 14:56
  us, right? Is still very much the same.
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  Having said all of that, the industry is growing right.
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  And we talked about this at the top of the show, the way that we
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  need to talk about the industry is changing.
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  The people that we need. To talk to it about is changing
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  Technologies are changing. And so it's the right thing for
• 15:18
  us to look at okay, keeping the core as the core.
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  What else do we need to do to start to grow in support of the
• 15:28
  industry? That we serve right.
• 15:30
  And so yeah, there are going to be some things that will change
• 15:34
  a little bit. We're adding some stuff into the
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  agenda, we're starting. Process this year and it will
• 15:41
  be, it will, you know, continue into into next year and the year
• 15:44
  after particularly around, you know, some of the business side
• 15:49
  of things, some of the more strategic sort of stuff, in
• 15:52
  fact, CRA just, I want to say a few weeks ago and I might be out
• 15:56
  by n weeks, but announced a relationship, a strategic
• 16:01
  relationship with liminal the consulting firm so, liminal
• 16:06
  amongst other things used to run.
• 16:09
  The no identity conference. And so you know CRA of developed
• 16:15
  a strategic relationship with liminal you'll see them around
• 16:17
  at the show they've got you know some interesting perspectives to
• 16:21
  add to the to the overall kind of Melting Pot which I think
• 16:25
  will be really interesting and very valuable.
• 16:27
  And I think there are other you know, consulting firms other
• 16:36
  vendors from not necessarily your core identity.
• 16:39
  Space that we'll start to see emerging.
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  And again, a lot of that is reflective of what's happening
• 16:44
  in the industry, right? If you go out and look at, you
• 16:47
  know where investment is flowing in the industry, you look at
• 16:50
  where some of the new technologies are coming.
• 16:54
  Yeah there's absolutely movement in what you might consider to
• 16:57
  the traditional I'm doing air quotes but traditional you know,
• 17:01
  kind of kind of core. I am technology but there's also
• 17:04
  a bunch of stuff going on around the edges of that in new areas,
• 17:07
  right? You look at some of the stuff
• 17:08
  that's Is happening from a verified any perspective you
• 17:12
  know attribute exchange is all the regulatory stuff that's
• 17:16
  going around mdl and in verified identity in a number of
• 17:20
  countries you know the stuff that's flowing from that into
• 17:24
  things like wallets. I we haven't you know that isn't
• 17:30
  that isn't something that traditionally we think all those
• 17:32
  core I am. Right.
• 17:33
  Digital identity wallet. Oh okay.
• 17:35
  But maybe it is something that we need to start thinking about.
• 17:39
  So, back to the original question, not a lot, has changed
• 17:44
  at a fundamental level, the experience will still be much
• 17:48
  the same different better like it is every year, right?
• 17:53
  But we're starting to add some of that additional stuff around
• 17:56
  the edges, which I think will be really important for people.
• 17:59
  And then, you actually asked a second question, Jeff right at
• 18:02
  the end, which was a, what's the experience for somebody that's
• 18:05
  coming new to the show? Now that's a hard one for me to
• 18:08
  answer. is it because I haven't been new to the show for a
• 18:11
  really long time but we spent a little bit of time last year
• 18:18
  talking to some folks who were new to the show and You know,
• 18:26
  when I say we me couple of folks on the content committee, some
• 18:29
  folks from ID Pro, some folks, from women and identity and
• 18:32
  we've got, you know, relationships with with those
• 18:34
  organizations as with many others and one of the things I
• 18:39
  think that comes across is people find it incredibly
• 18:45
  valuable to have lots of names that they recognize from the
• 18:51
  industry, right? So we already talked about Ian,
• 18:55
  But Vittoria Bertolucci, right? Or Brian Campbell or even mailer
• 19:01
  or you know, people whose names they've seen on specifications,
• 19:07
  or that have stood up at other big conferences that they've
• 19:11
  heard about all they've read blogs away, you know, that's
• 19:15
  fantastic. And they're there and they get
• 19:17
  to hear them. And in theory, they get to go
• 19:20
  and talk to them and we all do, right?
• 19:24
  But it's It's a little intimidating, if it's your first
• 19:26
  time. And some people are very
• 19:30
  comfortable with that and they weighed in and they get to know
• 19:32
  folks and that's wonderful. But lots of people are not built
• 19:35
  that way. And in all honesty I'm not
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  right? Like I like to have somebody
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  introduced me to somebody else and then I can have a
• 19:41
  conversation with them, but it's taken a long time for me to get
• 19:45
  over that sort of walk into a room, there's 300 people.
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  Then there's someone whose name I recognize but do I really want
• 19:52
  to go up and like start a conversation?
• 19:54
  That's hard. So one of the things We're going
• 19:58
  to do this year in conjunction with ID program with weird is
• 20:02
  for those folks that are new to identify us.
• 20:04
  We're going to do a session right up front on the Tuesday,
• 20:07
  which is the day that we start before the main agenda starts,
• 20:14
  which is going to help cut out. Help people get more out of the
• 20:20
  week help people navigate the week.
• 20:24
  It's not that it's a scary event to attend, right?
• 20:27
  It's really not. It's actually very friendly
• 20:29
  event. The question is okay, with in
• 20:31
  that friendly welcoming context, how do I get to talk to the
• 20:35
  people that I want to get to talk to you?
• 20:37
  How do I figure out which things to attend?
• 20:39
  What are the tips and tricks for me to get the most out of that
• 20:42
  week, right? I think the other I would say
• 20:47
  for anyone that's coming to it. New is it's a lot more than just
• 20:51
  the conference, right? So we talked about obviously big
• 20:54
  agenda and it is a big agenda, will have somewhere between 150
• 20:58
  and 200 speakers this year, which is a lot, it moves fast,
• 21:03
  right? So, you got to kind of keep up
• 21:04
  with day a little bit. We've got a big show floor,
• 21:07
  it'll be the biggest we've ever had lots going on there as well,
• 21:13
  right? There's some, some content
• 21:15
  that's going to be running around the edges.
• 21:17
  The of the trade show for as well.
• 21:18
  So, for those folks that need to understand sort of what's
• 21:21
  happening in the product landscape.
• 21:24
  There's there's all of that and then there's all the other stuff
• 21:27
  that goes around it, right? So we've had lots of traditions
• 21:29
  that identity verse four years and some of them continue and so
• 21:32
  on them change. But things like, you know, yoga
• 21:35
  and boot camp sessions in the morning, the welcome reception,
• 21:38
  which has some, you know, some stuff that goes on around it,
• 21:42
  we've got, you know, the closing party which traditionally has
• 21:45
  been, you know, one of the big focuses Focuses for the week and
• 21:49
  a whole variety of other sort of activities that happen around
• 21:53
  the edges show. So, I think, for a lot of people
• 21:56
  that have maybe attended more, let's say, traditionally run
• 22:01
  conferences. Yeah, we do that stuff.
• 22:05
  But there's other stuff too, right?
• 22:07
  And I think that's worth bearing in mind and then, hey, we're in
• 22:10
  Vegas this year. So not my choice.
• 22:13
  But I am given to understand that some people Like that
• 22:17
  experience. And so there's all of that to go
• 22:19
  explore as well. If you want to, I am a fan of
• 22:22
  Vegas. I feel like it's a very
• 22:25
  polarizing Choice. Some people are Vegas.
• 22:29
  Some people hate Vegas. I don't know anybody who's in
• 22:31
  the middle. It's like, yeah, there's the two
• 22:35
  extremes out there. I'm a fan of it.
• 22:36
  I think it's I think it's a great spot to have it.
• 22:39
  One of the things that you mentioned there and it just was
• 22:42
  as you're talking and say kike The conference seems fresh and I
• 22:46
  think that's the most important part of putting together.
• 22:50
  Any sort of agenda, topic speaker structure, you know, all
• 22:53
  this stuff goes into. This is, how do you keep it
• 22:55
  fresh year over year over year? And I think that is the great /.
• 23:00
  Fun / hard thing about identity, is that things change a lot even
• 23:05
  just within a year, right? Trends, new technologies, new
• 23:09
  threats, right? That we have to be kind of be
• 23:10
  concerned about. And that freshness, I think it's
• 23:13
  something. That you know, every conference
• 23:15
  probably strives to inject into that as I go.
• 23:18
  Okay, well, I went last year, why should I go again this year
• 23:21
  and maybe some people are on Cycles?
• 23:22
  You know, I know, I know a couple people who was like, okay
• 23:24
  well I go like every two years or every three years to see
• 23:26
  what's going on. I'm a fan of going to as many as
• 23:30
  I can, you know, that the content is great.
• 23:33
  But the thing that I find the most invaluable are the hallway
• 23:36
  conversations, I was at Gartner just a few weeks ago and I don't
• 23:41
  think I was able to attend very many sessions.
• 23:43
  I had a cute. I've had a couple key notes.
• 23:45
  I had a couple of sessions with like Becky and Enrique and stuff
• 23:48
  like that from Gartner analyst side of things.
• 23:50
  And those were great, but I spent a lot of time just talking
• 23:54
  with people and I think that's the one thing that I really
• 23:56
  appreciate about this identity. Space is, people are very
• 24:01
  welcoming. So if you see people having a
• 24:03
  conversation, if you see people out there is like, hey, there's
• 24:05
  Vittorio and his Italy, you know, gorgeous main, I want to
• 24:10
  go talk to him and find out what is using for shampoo and
• 24:12
  conditioner. You know, go do it because
• 24:15
  people are cool man. I mean, they're very receptive
• 24:18
  to going walking off. Introducing this other stuff
• 24:20
  like that. I feel like it's I'm the same
• 24:22
  way. It's a little bit, you know, if
• 24:23
  you're more of an introvert you kind of have to get out of that
• 24:26
  bubble and just walk up and say hello which can be tough and I
• 24:28
  get that find someone to make an introduction, you know, I think
• 24:31
  it's that's another area that's like hey if you're going with
• 24:33
  somebody else, you know there's strength in numbers or maybe if
• 24:36
  you know someone who's Going to there.
• 24:37
  Maybe they know someone and they can help make an introduction.
• 24:40
  I always find it really awkward when you like, you know, this
• 24:44
  isit. This actually happened at a
• 24:45
  fennec eight last year. In Seattle, was the torrio Ian.
• 24:49
  And I think it was Dean maybe from AWS, we're all kind of
• 24:56
  standing around kind of Talking Like These are Heavy Hitters in
• 24:58
  the identity space to do a lot of talk talks and presentations
• 25:02
  of like that. And I had kind of known you
• 25:04
  know, Vittorio Indian but didn't really know Dean so much and I
• 25:07
  just kind of I walked up and just kind of stood there
• 25:08
  awkwardly like oh and I just kind of joined the conversation
• 25:11
  right? But it was cool right?
• 25:13
  A oh that's not an opportunity that you get especially when you
• 25:16
  are remote all the time or if you're not attending
• 25:19
  conferences, that to me is the most valuable part.
• 25:22
  Yes, the content is good. Meet people.
• 25:25
  Go talk with people have conversations.
• 25:26
  I think there's a lot of value in that as well.
• 25:29
  Yeah, I think that's really good advice, Jeff and I agree, right?
• 25:33
  I like I say, it's hard for me to judge identify us anymore.
• 25:36
  Any because I'm I'm, you know, I'm there as it were and I've
• 25:39
  been there for a long time, but, all right, it is an incredibly
• 25:44
  welcoming industry and it's it, maybe feels a little
• 25:48
  disingenuous for you and I to be sitting hearing and we're
• 25:50
  throwing these names around right that people recognize and
• 25:53
  yet it's worth saying that, you know, for all that were involved
• 25:58
  in a pretty Deep Way in the industry.
• 26:00
  There are still lots of people that we don't know, right?
• 26:03
  And so it's not at all uncommon for me to have to, you know, to
• 26:07
  have exactly the experience. You just described of, oh, wait,
• 26:12
  there's this person whose name I vaguely recognize who I don't
• 26:16
  know. Looks after identity regulation
• 26:19
  for the UK government. Right?
• 26:21
  Okay. Well, I should probably go get
• 26:23
  to know that person and I have I'd like where do you start with
• 26:26
  that? Hi, I'm Andy, I ride
• 26:27
  anniversary. Okay.
• 26:29
  Yeah. It's not obvious but it is an
• 26:33
  incredibly welcoming industry. And I felt that from very early
• 26:38
  on like I didn't I didn't kind of grow up in this industry.
• 26:40
  Some people did write it was their first career out of school
• 26:42
  and that's and that's what they did.
• 26:43
  That wasn't my case thought. But yeah, really really
• 26:49
  welcoming industry and I think your observation that it's a
• 26:55
  rapidly changing industry, it has been True and continues to
• 27:00
  be true. In fact, so Ida Pro for a number
• 27:05
  of years. Now has run a skills and program
• 27:08
  survey we added some, some diversity components to that a
• 27:12
  few years ago as well. And really, the purpose of that
• 27:14
  is to help help ID Pro, but also to help the industry.
• 27:19
  Understand what shape. The professional industry is.
• 27:23
  Right? And honestly, nobody knew,
• 27:26
  right. Nobody had any idea.
• 27:27
  Well, Questions. Like, how long does it take you
• 27:31
  to feel proficient, right? And you can go and, you know,
• 27:36
  kind of look at the last four years, five years results on the
• 27:40
  only Pro website, but basically the number of people that say, I
• 27:44
  still don't feel proficient. And if you correlate that with
• 27:47
  the folks who've been in the industry for a long time, you
• 27:50
  get this weird sort of inverted curve, right, where people start
• 27:55
  off and they're in the industry one or two years and I don't
• 27:58
  feel profession. Aunt.
• 27:59
  And then you get folks in the middle who are like between say
• 28:02
  three and about seven or eight years who are like I got this.
• 28:07
  Then you get the people like you know, who've been in the
• 28:10
  industry for 10 12, 14, 16 years, you're like no, I have no
• 28:15
  clue what's going on anymore and that has been true, right?
• 28:20
  Those results have been pretty consistent for a number of
• 28:24
  years. Now, in fact, will occasionally
• 28:28
  Danvers the eye. Pro Crowder stood up and kind of
• 28:30
  talked about that in some detail this year, we'll go through it.
• 28:34
  I think there's a couple of sessions will all go through it
• 28:36
  at a slightly, higher level, and probably with a bit more
• 28:40
  reference to, you know, sort of what is the professional
• 28:43
  development Journey look like. And what are some ways to think
• 28:46
  about? You know, the way that we
• 28:49
  develop our, our careers in what is increasingly a sort of quote
• 28:54
  unquote, professionalized it ministry, right?
• 28:57
  But I invest some really, really Interesting stuff in that.
• 28:59
  One of the other things that's interesting, is the number of
• 29:04
  new people that are now emerging in the industry, right?
• 29:07
  Like again, it's growing and it's growing very rapidly and
• 29:13
  you talked about freshness. So, one of the things that that
• 29:17
  we look at and I talked about this on the main stage, quite a
• 29:20
  lot of identity is actually, but we we obviously look at an
• 29:25
  inclusivity across the agenda, and it's hard, right?
• 29:28
  It's And in this industry, as it is in any other.
• 29:31
  We know that there are that there are challenges there and
• 29:35
  we do our best to address them. I will say that.
• 29:38
  I don't think we do as well as I would like us to.
• 29:41
  But I'm proud of the fact that at least we're trying.
• 29:44
  Right. One of and part of that is, how
• 29:50
  do you define inclusiveness? And so for us it's always been a
• 29:55
  very broad definition and part The reason I bring it up in this
• 29:59
  context is one of the dimensions that we look at is the number of
• 30:07
  new voices across the speakers write the number of new voices
• 30:12
  versus the number of people who've spoken at a den of us
• 30:14
  before. For exactly that reason, right?
• 30:18
  You want to hear from different people?
• 30:21
  And yeah, there's some added value there in terms of helping
• 30:24
  people, you know, have some career progression opportunities
• 30:27
  and demonstrate all the stuff that they can do in worst of it.
• 30:30
  So we typically run somewhere between, you know, any given
• 30:34
  year 40 to 60 percent of the, you know, overall speaker makeup
• 30:39
  is new speakers, new presenters to the conference and that's
• 30:44
  been consistent now. At least five years if not
• 30:50
  longer. I personally and I would say
• 30:56
  this, right? I think that's really important.
• 31:00
  I would be fascinated to know what other people think, right?
• 31:03
  So you know if you're listening to this and you go to identify
• 31:05
  verse and you get the little survey question ever afterwards
• 31:07
  or even if you're in a session, right?
• 31:09
  Do the in session survey it just asks you know like did you enjoy
• 31:13
  the session or whatever? But Provide that feedback,
• 31:17
  right? Let us know because it's always
• 31:20
  that thing. It's not like we know any better
• 31:22
  than anybody else and if we don't get the feedback from
• 31:25
  people about, yeah, this topic was good.
• 31:27
  This topic wasn't great. This presented was clearly knew
• 31:31
  and they need to find their voice but they had some really
• 31:33
  interesting things to say, and that's the other thing I'd
• 31:35
  encourage, if you are giving feedback, what there are ways to
• 31:39
  make it positive, right? Like, you don't have to be
• 31:41
  grumpy in the survey feedback, okay?
• 31:43
  You suck. Get off stage, you know.
• 31:46
  Like let's avoid that but constructive criticism, that's
• 31:50
  well-meant well-intentioned, I think is incredibly helpful.
• 31:55
  So I would really encourage people to kind of engage with
• 31:58
  that. You know, if you are attending,
• 31:59
  let us know what you think. That's super helpful.
• 32:03
  I love that idea. I think, you know, be fair with
• 32:06
  that kind of thing. Getting on stage is not easy,
• 32:08
  right? You're putting yourself out
• 32:10
  there. Think about that, right?
• 32:12
  From your perspective, like you're sitting in the chair
• 32:13
  listening. You're not up on stage, so Maybe
• 32:16
  someday it'll be you and I think that that feedback does help
• 32:19
  right? Is understanding.
• 32:20
  And yeah maybe it is the first time, you know, you're hearing
• 32:23
  from somebody and, you know, maybe they knock out of the
• 32:25
  park. Maybe there's a couple things
• 32:26
  work on. That's cool.
• 32:27
  They took the step of getting on stage and putting themselves out
• 32:31
  there, which I think is the first step towards.
• 32:33
  Yeah. Keeping that freshness, keeping
• 32:34
  that that, that conversation alive.
• 32:37
  I love the idea of have a new speakers out there and, you
• 32:39
  know, kind of hearing it's out there because at some point,
• 32:42
  right? There's going to be a Changing
• 32:44
  of the Guard and it's a constant.
• 32:46
  Refresh in a cycle, right? At some point there will be new
• 32:49
  sort of you know leaders in the space that are out there giving
• 32:52
  opinions or coming up with new ways of doing things that I
• 32:55
  think people need to hear about you.
• 32:57
  And I were talking a couple days ago about, you know, who are
• 33:00
  some of these new speakers and maybe trying to get them on the
• 33:03
  show here making and you know, Andy, can you make an
• 33:06
  introduction for me and Jim Wright, they go have a
• 33:09
  conversation, you know, with these folks and see if they'd be
• 33:11
  interested in being on the podcast and things like that.
• 33:13
  So yeah, I'm excited to be that. And that's a really fun idea and
• 33:18
  already valuable idea. And, you know, maybe one of the
• 33:21
  things we're not brainstorming live on the podcast, but, you
• 33:24
  know, maybe 120 doings that. Yeah.
• 33:26
  So maybe one of the things we do is, you know, you guys are going
• 33:29
  to be there in Vegas, in a couple months time and, yeah,
• 33:35
  you know, I can go through the agenda and try and say, well,
• 33:37
  you should go to this and this and this, but you guys are going
• 33:38
  to be that, right? So, I would do a little bit of
• 33:40
  divide and conquer and go and go and listen, right currency
• 33:43
  while, you know, who's out there that saying, some stuff that You
• 33:46
  know, that's a different perspective.
• 33:48
  That's a different take that, you know, maybe is a couple of
• 33:51
  years into their career that you know we need to hear from and
• 33:57
  it's occurring to me that there may well.
• 33:59
  Be some folks, you know, listening to this who are in
• 34:01
  that group of hey this is my first identify a person like
• 34:04
  well, you know, and so yet the Obama show, we're friendly.
• 34:08
  I swear if we take good care of people, exactly.
• 34:12
  But actually, it's true, right, we get feedback.
• 34:14
  So, like, I say, we've got a process For this, that's that's
• 34:17
  again, not perfect, but, reasonably well, established,
• 34:20
  over over a number of years. Everything that gets presented
• 34:24
  in the main agenda goes through this.
• 34:26
  This content review, process with the content committee and
• 34:28
  actually goes through a two-step process and it is absolutely
• 34:32
  designed to be a supportive helpful constructive process
• 34:35
  process, right? It's not a case of the content
• 34:38
  committee trying to editorialize.
• 34:39
  What we're trying to do is to make sure that speakers have as
• 34:43
  good an experience as they can and we are Some really nice
• 34:47
  feedback last year. This didn't come to me directly.
• 34:50
  It came through one of the content could members but
• 34:54
  someone who actually is an experienced presenter, right?
• 34:57
  And they speak at conferences fairly technical conferences
• 35:00
  around the world and have done for years and their commentary
• 35:04
  was like I have never had the amount of constructive feedback
• 35:09
  through a Content review. Then I got that identifies to
• 35:13
  the extent that it actually led to some improvements in the
• 35:16
  Nation that they were writing right now that isn't going to
• 35:18
  happen for everybody but you know folks that are new
• 35:24
  absolutely. A Gonna Get, You know, here's a
• 35:27
  way to think about constructing this material in a more
• 35:31
  effective way. Or have you considered putting a
• 35:33
  summary slide at the end because that'll help people remember
• 35:36
  what you said. Or, you know, sometimes it's the
• 35:39
  basic things. You've got a 20-minute
• 35:40
  presentation unless you rem Glaser 121 slides is not going
• 35:45
  to work. Right?
• 35:49
  And and we can help with that. And there are lots of people
• 35:51
  even within the community who are willing to help.
• 35:55
  So if you happen to be a member ID Pro, you know, I would reach
• 35:58
  out and select Channel there and say, hey look, I'm I'm preparing
• 36:01
  my deck and I'd love to get some pointers and people will help,
• 36:04
  right? They'll absolutely help.
• 36:07
  Yeah. It's a it's a fun thing to be
• 36:10
  involved. In is all I can say.
• 36:11
  Yeah. The creative process is
• 36:13
  interesting. I think back to like our first
• 36:15
  episode of me in my basement with a very echoey microphone
• 36:18
  and now here we are. The audio quality is gotten
• 36:21
  better as a contact gun better. I don't know.
• 36:23
  I feel like we've been relatively consistent, but we
• 36:25
  get feedback all the time. Too much banter upfront.
• 36:27
  You took too long to get to the topic, right?
• 36:29
  You're talking about things that don't make sense to me.
• 36:31
  Maybe they make sense of someone else, you know?
• 36:33
  And we take that out, you know? And I think that's part of that
• 36:35
  same process, right? Is you can get smarter over
• 36:37
  time. Our time, it's okay to evolve
• 36:39
  adapt iterate, right? Because a lot of times and maybe
• 36:43
  I'm maybe I'm peeling back a little bit of the conference
• 36:46
  circuit tour. Is you develop you know, a talk
• 36:49
  or presentation and you might give it one, two, three, ten
• 36:52
  times. And you will take feedback as
• 36:56
  you go on the way to say, oh, okay, here's another way that I
• 36:58
  can kind of do this or make it more specific to the type of
• 37:01
  audience is going into. So, you know, it's interesting
• 37:05
  to see the first time someone presents.
• 37:07
  And then to see it maybe a year or two later when they're
• 37:10
  presenting again at a different, you know, venue for people who
• 37:12
  maybe haven't seen it before and to see what's changed.
• 37:15
  And that's a result of that feedback.
• 37:16
  They probably got behind the scenes.
• 37:18
  Yeah, that's a really interesting observation Jeff and
• 37:20
  you up, you're absolutely right. You know, the the way that talks
• 37:24
  evolved over time is, is fascinating, and it actually
• 37:28
  leads me to a thought, which is, you know, for those people that
• 37:32
  do have the opportunity to do that, that's fantastic.
• 37:35
  Equally if you're turning up at a Conference and this is the
• 37:38
  first run right? Whether it's identifies or any
• 37:41
  other conference, I would highly highly highly recommend finding
• 37:46
  a couple of friendlies and doing a full run-through of like
• 37:52
  properly presented maybe even two or three times just to help
• 37:59
  hone it a little bit. So that actually the first time
• 38:02
  you do it and particularly, if presenting isn't a thing that
• 38:06
  you do on a regular The first time you do, it isn't the first
• 38:10
  time you did it. And it's funny because I fell
• 38:13
  into exactly this trap actually not with the presentation, but
• 38:17
  with a podcast and it wasn't this one, it was a different one
• 38:24
  that wasn't specifically focused on identity, but it was the
• 38:26
  first one that I ever done. And I assumed that given that I
• 38:34
  present and I do that, you know, like freely without About notes
• 38:38
  and I make stuff up and it's fine because I know stuff and
• 38:40
  that's okay, right? And I'm used to it.
• 38:42
  I just assumed that I could get on a podcast and it would be
• 38:46
  fine. And you know what?
• 38:50
  It's not. And so I learned and this was
• 38:54
  what like two years ago. So not a long time ago, this is
• 38:57
  recent and I make notes. Now for podcasts of here are the
• 39:05
  things that I want to talk about and here are some key facts that
• 39:09
  I don't want to forget halfway through and then you know when
• 39:13
  Jeff asks me a question, I'm like I'm going to make a note of
• 39:16
  that somewhere, very quietly so that the sound doesn't come
• 39:19
  through the microphone. I'm Thudding.
• 39:20
  See, Jeff. Thank you.
• 39:21
  Thank you. And you know, so that I know
• 39:24
  that I can come back around to it later and it it's a constant
• 39:28
  learning experience. And so I go for the new people,
• 39:31
  I'd absolutely say, you know, even the folks that are standing
• 39:33
  up on that big stage and identify verse or Gartner or you
• 39:37
  know, RSA, whatever it is. Everybody is still learning how
• 39:41
  to get better at this, right? Yeah, I think you bring up a
• 39:45
  really good point there too, but the rehearse it right,
• 39:48
  understand it? No.
• 39:49
  The content. Here's my Pro tip.
• 39:52
  Don't read a slide, there's nothing worse than being than
• 39:56
  having a slide full of text and you're literally just reading it
• 39:59
  to the person I could have done that.
• 40:01
  I think the challenge for a lot of people is when they're
• 40:04
  finding their voice is not being afraid, to let their personality
• 40:07
  show be dynamic, right? Let some of your personal to go
• 40:10
  through. Yeah.
• 40:11
  Identity. You know, may not be the most
• 40:13
  exciting Topic in the world. I hate to say it, but there are
• 40:16
  ways to still make it entertaining, engaging, you
• 40:19
  know, no, you don't want to be the monotone voice saying
• 40:22
  everything in the same tone, and just kind of reading a voice,
• 40:24
  write a robot, that kind of thing is take a moment, right?
• 40:28
  You don't have to fill dead air, right?
• 40:30
  You can have Thoughtful pauses, as you're going through the
• 40:34
  conversation. So I know it's a skill.
• 40:36
  I mean you mentioned, you know taking notes we do that for all
• 40:39
  of our shows here is we put together sort of here's the idea
• 40:43
  for the topic and let's come up with like three to five
• 40:45
  questions so that Jim and I don't ramble, you know too far
• 40:49
  off the beaten path sometimes we do sometimes Jim goes a downer
• 40:51
  path and I have to pull them back to the light.
• 40:54
  You like come on let's go let's go let's bring it back up but
• 40:57
  you know that's just part of the process so yeah I think I think
• 41:01
  it's a great idea. Is to make sure if, especially,
• 41:03
  if it's your first time presenting this year, if you're
• 41:04
  listening to this, I'd be happy to listen to it.
• 41:06
  You know, feel free. You know, we do that for our
• 41:09
  friends and, you know, everybody identity space that I come
• 41:11
  across has been very friendly and happy to do that too.
• 41:13
  So I want to shift gears a little bit because you mentioned
• 41:17
  a couple things like women, and identity and ID Pro, it seems to
• 41:21
  me that ID pro has sort of made identify verse sort of the whole
• 41:25
  conference for them. And I wonder about, you know,
• 41:28
  relationships between some of these organizations like, women
• 41:31
  identity, like Like ID Pro like others.
• 41:34
  What is though, what does that type of relationship with the
• 41:38
  conference itself? Is their influence on?
• 41:41
  What are some of the tracks or topics?
• 41:43
  You know. Are there Events maybe they get
• 41:45
  kind of set aside you know for some of those folks, those types
• 41:48
  of things. Yeah, that was a thoughtful
• 41:52
  pause. Just then, folks.
• 41:54
  So yeah, we do. We absolutely have those
• 41:59
  relationships with a number of organizations, and I think the
• 42:02
  nature of those relationships to some degree.
• 42:06
  Mmm, dictates is, maybe not the right word.
• 42:08
  But influences, you know what the impact is?
• 42:11
  So we'll start with ID Pro, just because I think you started with
• 42:15
  it, so I'll start with it Ida Pro, and it was founded in.
• 42:20
  Well, a little bit before 2017, but it was the 2017 conference,
• 42:25
  which was in. He says, racking his brains.
• 42:28
  I want to say Chicago Chicago. Yep.
• 42:30
  Good. I'm glad so glad I got that
• 42:32
  right? You have never played it Ian and
• 42:34
  Sarah, very happy with you as an adult.
• 42:36
  One of the things I wrote down in advance.
• 42:40
  Yeah. So in Chicago and we actually
• 42:41
  announced, you know, the the formation of it Pros, a
• 42:45
  standalone, nonprofit entity, you know, on the main stage and
• 42:49
  one of the things that we announced at Time.
• 42:51
  Was that identify us was the home show for ID Pro and that's
• 42:54
  been true ever since. Now some of that with with an ID
• 42:58
  Pro Hat on at the time, was a little bit self-serving in the
• 43:02
  sense that look, there's this big conference that most of the
• 43:05
  identity professionals go to. So, why would we go and make
• 43:08
  another one? Hey, here it is.
• 43:12
  But what we've done over time is slightly formalized, that
• 43:16
  relationship. And so yeah, there has been for
• 43:19
  a number of years now. A professional development sort
• 43:23
  of topic area or track show which really focuses on war of
• 43:28
  the soft skills. So, we've had topics, like, like
• 43:31
  we mentioned top of the show, right?
• 43:33
  How do I pitch my project? How do I get budget?
• 43:36
  How do I manage a team? How do I hire an inclusive way?
• 43:40
  Right? How do I deal with stress in?
• 43:44
  You know, instant response is actually one of the talks this
• 43:46
  year which I'm really looking forward to, you know, the Just a
• 43:51
  short flight of that stress when I started interrupt, but I hope
• 43:55
  that horse person that just has like a picture of a liquor
• 43:57
  bottle and I, all right, talk over and it's like 30 seconds
• 44:00
  and as I just kidding, like there's more things, but I think
• 44:02
  that would be hilarious. We'd open it up, but I digress.
• 44:04
  Please continue the, let's fly you digress as much as you like,
• 44:08
  Jeff, any talks. Yeah.
• 44:11
  So, so, that is a topic area that is kind of curated within
• 44:17
  the overall construct of the show, but is is curated And
• 44:20
  assisted by folks, you know, within ID Pro and then, you
• 44:27
  know, typically they'll be, you know, some material up the front
• 44:32
  of the show. So there's the introduction to
• 44:34
  Identity that we've run for a long time.
• 44:36
  We get an interesting mix of people and that one, we get
• 44:38
  people who are just starting their careers.
• 44:40
  And we also get, you know, the the fifteen-year-old sort of
• 44:44
  expert kind of folks, the convergence sitting in the back
• 44:51
  I think I'm talking about is desperately trying to catch up
• 44:54
  or, or just want to Heckle. So that one's always fun to go
• 44:57
  to, right? But actually, I mean,
• 44:59
  personally, I always find it useful, 8.
• 45:01
  I really get to go to these things, so I get to see all this
• 45:04
  stuff in review up front. But I always find that one
• 45:07
  incredibly useful because it reminds me of you know, bits of
• 45:11
  the industry that maybe I'm not directly involved in right now
• 45:16
  that I forgotten about. And it also keeps me up to date
• 45:19
  usually with some new stuff. That's coming along, just just
• 45:22
  enough, so that, you know, I know enough to be dangerous,
• 45:25
  right? Which for me is is perfect and
• 45:29
  then there's quite often a social event as well, right?
• 45:32
  So I do, I don't know exactly when it's going to be, but I
• 45:35
  expect that ID Pro will probably have some kind of happy hour or
• 45:38
  gathering whether its formal or informal.
• 45:40
  There will be a thing that coalesces right.
• 45:43
  In fact I talked about the The sort of newcomers session that
• 45:51
  we're going to do this year that emerged in part from the
• 45:56
  conversations that we had in the in the learning the feedback we
• 45:59
  took but it also emerged in part from a Grassroots effort that
• 46:02
  took place last year when we were in Denver.
• 46:05
  When I do pro kind of went. Hey you know we think there's a
• 46:07
  bunch of new people here. We should try and get together.
• 46:09
  Some kind of you know, newcomers breakfast.
• 46:12
  It's very last minute, very Community Driven effort, you
• 46:16
  know. Pretty good that it happened.
• 46:18
  And so sort of you know it's nice to be able to take that and
• 46:21
  evolve it a little bit and wrap it into the show.
• 46:23
  Women and identity are going to help us with that as well this
• 46:26
  year. And so, you know, that brings me
• 46:28
  to Wed rate. We've had a close relationship
• 46:30
  with weird for a long time that relationship tends to be a
• 46:33
  little bit less sort of formally built into the agenda and some
• 46:37
  of that is reflective of, you know, the differences between
• 46:41
  between those two organizations. But you know, will quite often
• 46:44
  have conversations with worried about.
• 46:46
  Look, you know that particular speakers we can we can bring in.
• 46:51
  They've done quite a lot of work on some of the inclusivity
• 46:56
  impact of the identity systems that we build, right?
• 47:01
  So this isn't about the hiring question or the professional
• 47:04
  development question. It's about the availability of
• 47:09
  the systems that we've created to ought to allow, you know,
• 47:11
  access for everybody. And so we've, you know, we've
• 47:15
  had sessions. That material in the pasta, and
• 47:18
  that will be similar work going on this year.
• 47:21
  I imagine identify this as well. The other thing that we've done
• 47:25
  with both organizations that we did up front this year and arm
• 47:29
  is, we did a session in this case, specifically aimed at
• 47:33
  women and it was reasonably successful.
• 47:36
  And so, I'm considering whether there are ways we can extend
• 47:38
  that going into next year about okay.
• 47:41
  How do you put a proposal into a cfp because Cuz if you've never
• 47:47
  done that before, that can be a little bit daunting, and it's
• 47:53
  made least favorite part, right? Like, it's not easy.
• 47:57
  I mean, like, I put proposals in, on my own behalf to other
• 48:00
  conferences, I won't name them on a fairly regular basis and
• 48:05
  it's, you know, it's nerve-racking, it's like, is
• 48:08
  this going to work? Am I doing the right thing?
• 48:09
  So, if I answer the right questions the right way, have I
• 48:12
  have, I optimized my chances of being selected, right?
• 48:16
  As A human reading it or is some a I sort of just don't know.
• 48:20
  We can get into that conversation a bit but you know,
• 48:23
  it's it's tough, right? And so we thought, well look and
• 48:26
  this was an initiative that really came out of of ID Pro.
• 48:29
  And we're together saying, look, you know, we'd like to try and
• 48:32
  do something that's, that's aimed at that audience.
• 48:34
  So let's, you know, let's put something together.
• 48:37
  Let's do a presentation. Let's try and see if we can
• 48:39
  improve that experience. Like, I say this year,
• 48:42
  particularly for, for women Wanting to put proposals it and
• 48:48
  then we'll look and see if there are ways that we can extend that
• 48:50
  going to next year. Now, there are, of course,
• 48:54
  plenty of other both industry associations and professional
• 48:58
  organizations that we have varying degrees of relationship
• 49:02
  with. And the way that they get
• 49:04
  embedded into the event, then, you know, varies depending on
• 49:09
  who they are how they operate, what they're you know,
• 49:12
  relationship with the industry is what the relationship the
• 49:14
  show is all of those things. Things, right?
• 49:16
  So and that ranges from, you know, the sort of obvious
• 49:20
  standards or at least technical organizations, like Fido like oh
• 49:25
  IDF like Cantara, like away X, and so on, I'd be remiss if I
• 49:32
  didn't mention the idsa, which is a little different.
• 49:35
  But again, you know, very involved, very present in the
• 49:39
  industry. I think.
• 49:42
  Every single one of those organizations is going to be
• 49:45
  identical. Us this year.
• 49:46
  But more importantly we engage with them, not just for the
• 49:50
  conference, but actually right through the planning process
• 49:52
  through the year. And that some of those
• 49:54
  conversations is what then helps inform rate.
• 49:57
  What do we need to be thinking about in the agenda?
• 49:59
  What are we looking for in the cfp?
• 50:01
  Are there some things that just don't have a place to live in
• 50:05
  the way that we currently construct the agenda that we
• 50:08
  need to add or extend or consider for the main stage in
• 50:11
  some way because they don't that they're not there yet but we
• 50:14
  need to get there over time. Time kind of thing.
• 50:19
  So like I say it's flexible and varied and I think there are
• 50:25
  other organizations that will increasingly start to build
• 50:28
  relationships with. In fact, you know, we talked
• 50:32
  actually, we didn't talk about professional certifications,
• 50:36
  right? So that's obviously a space that
• 50:39
  it Pros increasingly playing in, but lots of people in this area
• 50:43
  have got one of the is e squared.
• 50:45
  Certifications right? Lots of people have one of the
• 50:49
  Privacy ones from the IEP. So actually Claire also use the
• 50:53
  CEO the executive director over at AC Squared is going to be on
• 50:57
  the stage this year. And you know talking a little
• 51:02
  bit about some of her perspectives in in connection
• 51:05
  with that, you know, what is the chief identity officer look like
• 51:09
  conversation, right? So I think that will be really
• 51:11
  interesting to get that perspective.
• 51:13
  We've got a number of Of folks involved both on the committee
• 51:18
  and in the agenda who've got privacy.
• 51:20
  Qualifications of fact, I do. And so I expect that that's
• 51:24
  relationship, that will continue to develop with the IPP over
• 51:27
  time. We've had, you know, I sort of I
• 51:33
  made a note that I then ignored upfront to say and I will now
• 51:37
  say it, which is, I was slightly hesitant to start naming
• 51:40
  organization so I'm bound to forget somebody, right?
• 51:43
  So it's our, if it's a hazard of a Of the medium, right?
• 51:46
  It is, you know, it's a little bit like the Oscars acceptance
• 51:49
  speech, isn't it? But that's what we try and do,
• 51:55
  right? It's a big tent.
• 51:58
  Everybody is welcome. And then from an agenda,
• 52:02
  standpoint, and it sort of strategic direction for the show
• 52:05
  standpoint. We try and I say, we, you know,
• 52:09
  The Advisory Board in the content committee.
• 52:10
  Try and Garner as much input as we can from all of those sources
• 52:14
  whether I named Add them, or not to try and make sure that we are
• 52:19
  as directionally representative as we can be whilst recognizing
• 52:25
  that we've only got four days and it's not possible to run the
• 52:30
  thing for 24 hours. So, you know, it's kind of, its
• 52:34
  kind of limiting but we try, maybe that's the next big idea
• 52:39
  of some sort of like, identity, circus, or theme park or
• 52:42
  something. It's open year-round.
• 52:44
  All the vendors from Are there everybody can kind of come and
• 52:47
  go as they please? I imagine it'd be maybe a maybe
• 52:50
  it's you know, a VR theme park or some sort.
• 52:52
  I don't know if that'll be all primary topic for next year.
• 52:55
  The identity circus, I can I can see it.
• 52:57
  Now, the last time we talked identify verse was with you was
• 53:03
  episode 149 and we asked you a question?
• 53:06
  What's the difference between digital identity?
• 53:08
  And I am and that spawned into one of our most?
• 53:13
  I do fun / controversial. /. I don't know what to call it
• 53:16
  episodes which is episode 51 where we took that question?
• 53:21
  And we asked a whole bunch of people in a lot of people who
• 53:24
  are listeners of the show you know kind of names industry that
• 53:27
  kind of thing. What is the difference between
• 53:29
  digital identity and identity and access management?
• 53:31
  We got a whole bunch of different answers and you know I
• 53:34
  want to give credit where it's due.
• 53:36
  It started here when a conversation with Andy and you
• 53:38
  know what does that mean? I'm curious.
• 53:41
  How do you define the two? Now that we're a year later?
• 53:44
  And I don't know if you've had a chance to go.
• 53:45
  Go back and you know listen what other people have said, you tell
• 53:50
  me since you're the one who started this problem, what is
• 53:53
  the difference between digital identity and identity and access
• 53:56
  management? Is another thoughtful, pause
• 54:00
  there for everyone. Thank you.
• 54:02
  That's, I'm good at that. It's just don't say anything for
• 54:05
  a minute. Um, so yeah, you know, I for
• 54:10
  one, I'm kind of amused about, I don't know whether to be amused
• 54:13
  or gratified, or embarrassed that I seem to have started a
• 54:16
  thing. I didn't necessarily mean to
• 54:18
  start a thing. But, II.
• 54:22
  Don't think that my perspective has necessarily changed, right?
• 54:26
  So, I saw some of the back and forth about this and I take it
• 54:31
  as ever been British. I take, I think everybody's
• 54:33
  right, right. But I do think that there is A
• 54:39
  breath that is emerging to the industry that I don't think
• 54:47
  we've necessarily thought about before, right?
• 54:50
  So for me I am tends to be focused on what I would call a
• 54:58
  set of Infrastructure capabilities, right?
• 55:04
  And I say that absolutely in a broad and positive sense, right?
• 55:14
  It encompasses all sorts of things like authorization
• 55:18
  authentication and Federation and SSO and Wham and you know
• 55:24
  what didn't I just say provisioning and IGA and all of
• 55:29
  those things. Things.
• 55:30
  Right. What's emerging again from my
• 55:38
  point of view, in my perspective is that there's a whole bunch of
• 55:42
  stuff around. The the identity verification
• 55:49
  identity, you know, trusted tributes.
• 55:53
  I'm going to say trust Frameworks.
• 55:55
  I don't know if we're playing a drinking game yet, but that
• 55:58
  feels to me like it's going to replace blockchain as being a
• 56:02
  thing where you have to take a drink every time.
• 56:03
  Somebody says it, right, trust framework off we go.
• 56:07
  But, you know, it's it's a thing and they have value and schemes
• 56:11
  and all of those sorts of things you look at what's happening
• 56:14
  with mdl, you Look at what's happening with, you know, that
• 56:18
  the wallets. Sorry, that's this is hard to
• 56:21
  say as words as opposed to having it sort of written down
• 56:25
  so you can see where the apostrophe is.
• 56:27
  So the various wallet initiatives.
• 56:29
  There we go. And a lot of that is not stuff
• 56:37
  that would traditionally fall into that that the scope the
• 56:41
  Ambit of I am right in my mind. Digital identity is a little
• 56:48
  broader than that and I think it's increasingly important for
• 56:53
  us as I'd only professionals to recognize that and back to an
• 56:58
  observation that you made you know, towards the top of the
• 57:02
  show jeff which Chiz. Understanding that we need to
• 57:09
  increasingly talk to people and engage with people who do not
• 57:14
  have identity as a background or even don't have a technical
• 57:18
  background, right? And help them understand where
• 57:22
  we fit into their world, right? That's the shift that I think
• 57:28
  needs to happen. In fact, I've been involved in a
• 57:32
  project in with my, you know. Me as a consultant hat on for
• 57:37
  the last. I want to say three months or so
• 57:41
  and it's one of those things where predictably I can't talk
• 57:44
  about the details. I'm going to have to hand wave
• 57:46
  virtually and and orally around some of the topics.
• 57:51
  But you know, essentially a project to help some folks you
• 57:55
  know kind of understand where some of these these broader
• 57:59
  scale digital identity initiatives, you know, verified
• 58:03
  anywhere, that kind of thing. Uh is going to fit into their
• 58:05
  world and had lots of great conversations with the technical
• 58:10
  folks that was fine. And then we got a couple of
• 58:12
  folks in the room. If you did not come from a
• 58:13
  technical background, didn't come from, I'd any background in
• 58:16
  particular, smart people, but they hear a word like You know,
• 58:25
  authentication user arrived at the site and they authenticated
• 58:29
  and in their head, what that means is that the service
• 58:35
  provide a new who the person was.
• 58:39
  Now. We know he says gesticulating
• 58:43
  wildly at Jeff on the screen, we know that that isn't what
• 58:48
  authentication means. But were increasingly having to
• 58:53
  be very clear when we go talk to people about what it does mean.
• 58:59
  And so I think for me that's really what this is about is
• 59:02
  digital identity. Is more than just the
• 59:04
  infrastructure, it's a whole bunch of new things and a whole
• 59:08
  bunch of new audiences that we got to go and engage with And I
• 59:13
  think we need to recognize that. Understanding the context in the
• 59:17
  audience I think is a big part of that conversation.
• 59:20
  I've noticed a shift in just the way that I even I talked about
• 59:24
  any management over the last few years where I felt like a few
• 59:29
  years ago you could be maybe a little looser with your
• 59:32
  language. Okay.
• 59:32
  We're kind of talking about this thing and you know, it's kind of
• 59:35
  nebulous and we're kind of that. I find myself having to be a lot
• 59:38
  more precise with my language based on who I'm talking to you.
• 59:41
  Because if I, if I say okay well yes they authenticate it and I'm
• 59:44
  talking to Scott McPherson. I'll have to happen but they do
• 59:46
  what were the factors but a little.
• 59:47
  All right, I'm talking to a CIO or an executive or someone
• 59:51
  without, you know, that kind of context background.
• 59:53
  They probably don't care, right? They don't.
• 59:56
  Was it secure? Did it happen was the customer
• 59:58
  was the employee happy where they would go through a lot.
• 1:00:00
  Great, I don't even know the details on that side.
• 1:00:03
  So I have seen that that shift over the years.
• 1:00:06
  You mentioned a fennec 810 occasion and I want to start to
• 1:00:09
  wrap things up here because I've been really generous with your
• 1:00:11
  time. I feel like we've solved with
• 1:00:14
  education. We fixed it.
• 1:00:15
  We're done. House keys are a thing Fido has
• 1:00:17
  done a great job of getting all the major players on.
• 1:00:20
  We don't have to worry about anymore.
• 1:00:21
  So what I'm thinking next is, what is our next
• 1:00:24
  thought-provoking conversation? Very much along the lines of,
• 1:00:27
  you know, the difference between a digital identity identity
• 1:00:29
  access management. So what is something that you're
• 1:00:32
  thinking about like from a next perspective that we should be
• 1:00:34
  asking the questions? Yeah that's it.
• 1:00:37
  That's a really good question. I'm sitting here thinking get
• 1:00:39
  with an equation is dead low-middle Federation.
• 1:00:41
  Um so so like I I take your point Absolutely right.
• 1:00:46
  I think, you know In fairness. Yeah, there's a lot that we've
• 1:00:52
  quote-unquote sold, authentication, getting it
• 1:00:54
  deployed, getting it out there. Getting people to use these new
• 1:00:59
  systems and be comfortable with them is a journey, right?
• 1:01:06
  I'm not great at predictions. That's one of the reasons why
• 1:01:10
  going to Vegas, doesn't really work for me because I am not
• 1:01:12
  going to be gambling, but but the food is good.
• 1:01:15
  Yeah. Yeah, but I it's at least in my
• 1:01:20
  view a five-year problem if not right?
• 1:01:23
  So and I think it's also fair to say that there are still lots of
• 1:01:26
  conversations going on about some of the details underneath
• 1:01:29
  things like passkey, right? We're okay.
• 1:01:33
  Yeah, for this 80% use case, it's great.
• 1:01:35
  Here's a twenty percent use case that actually kind of matters
• 1:01:37
  because it's in a regulated industry.
• 1:01:39
  And how do we deal with that? And what is the user experience
• 1:01:42
  look like? What is the user experience?
• 1:01:43
  Look like if you're, you know, No, on an old device versus one
• 1:01:48
  of these shiny new things, you know, what's the user
• 1:01:51
  experience. If you drop your phone in your
• 1:01:53
  beer, you know, that kind of thing, right?
• 1:01:55
  So there's a lot still to be done, but it's very you get
• 1:01:59
  suspicion. Suspiciously specific example in
• 1:02:02
  what I just never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to
• 1:02:04
  other people heard about it, right?
• 1:02:05
  Yeah, okay. So, you know, I think there's a
• 1:02:10
  lot still to talk about there and in fact, we've got, you
• 1:02:12
  know, as it happens. And honestly, dear listener,
• 1:02:16
  this was not a fed question, right?
• 1:02:18
  But we do have a number of sessions on exactly those topics
• 1:02:20
  that identifies. Having said all of that, I think
• 1:02:25
  a shift that I think, and I think a number of people on the
• 1:02:30
  content committee thought that we'd started to see not just in
• 1:02:34
  the call for presentations but actually in some of the
• 1:02:36
  conversations that we're having around the edges of stuff is
• 1:02:39
  that authorization which has been like hesitate to say this
• 1:02:45
  and get a bunch of people bent out of shape, but a little
• 1:02:48
  static for a while, right? I think we're starting to see a
• 1:02:53
  sudden. Even sudden is not the right
• 1:02:57
  word, eight gradual, but increasing.
• 1:03:05
  Focus on. That area, right?
• 1:03:11
  It's almost as if now I figured out good ways and safe ways to
• 1:03:16
  get people in the front door. Now, I've got that put to bed,
• 1:03:22
  let me make sure that they can only get into their own hotel
• 1:03:27
  room. He says, stretching the analogy
• 1:03:29
  to Breaking Point and not into anybody else's, right?
• 1:03:33
  I think there's some interesting activity going on there.
• 1:03:36
  I think there's a bunch of interesting questions to be
• 1:03:39
  asked maybe a standards level but particularly our product
• 1:03:43
  level around, how do we integrate things like Verifiable
• 1:03:51
  credentials into those flows. There's a real thinking that
• 1:03:57
  needs to get done there. And the other one that's come up
• 1:04:01
  in that regard is Some of the mmm, more challenging use, cases
• 1:04:09
  around delegation with real-world identity, right?
• 1:04:14
  So in a lot of places, a lot of countries around the world,
• 1:04:19
  we've now got a bunch of stuff going on with age, estimation
• 1:04:22
  age verification, right? Very sensible.
• 1:04:26
  Very good, very fine. But a lot of the legislation and
• 1:04:35
  the regulation that's being developed quite understandably
• 1:04:38
  as sort of slightly shied away. From the complexities of, I'm a
• 1:04:44
  say a parent or Guardian managing this and access on
• 1:04:48
  behalf of a child who is of age XYZ, right?
• 1:04:52
  How does that? Now, these are questions that
• 1:04:54
  we've been talking about in the industry.
• 1:04:55
  A long time, but back to the previous sort of segments of
• 1:04:59
  conversation. Not everybody else has, right?
• 1:05:02
  And so it turns out that there's a little bit of Education that
• 1:05:05
  we probably need to do. But there's also probably some
• 1:05:07
  things that we haven't thought about all that aren't yet baked
• 1:05:10
  into the technology. And I think that's really gonna
• 1:05:13
  hit us particularly in in that authorization space.
• 1:05:18
  So I mean, that's where it gets critical.
• 1:05:22
  So there's right for me, I think that's going to be really
• 1:05:26
  interesting getting into into next year.
• 1:05:29
  I agree. I think this is another
• 1:05:31
  Universal topic, right? Everybody struggled with
• 1:05:33
  authentication, is it fixed? No, I was being kind of
• 1:05:35
  tongue-in-cheek before but it's getting better, right?
• 1:05:37
  We're starting to see really significant progress and making
• 1:05:41
  it a better more secure user experience.
• 1:05:45
  The authorization is another one that a lot of organizations
• 1:05:47
  struggle with, I don't know how many companies that I talk to.
• 1:05:49
  They're like, oh yeah, we're trying to do row base.
• 1:05:52
  Access Control. Oh my gosh.
• 1:05:53
  Okay, congratulations. And I'm sorry, it is very
• 1:05:57
  difficult to do that. And we've seen a whole bunch of
• 1:05:59
  the use, like, you know, X BAC, right?
• 1:06:02
  Roll are back a back P back. I don't know, there's probably a
• 1:06:07
  one for each kind of back that's out there.
• 1:06:09
  Now we're standing see things like zero standing privileges,
• 1:06:12
  right? All this is doing with
• 1:06:13
  authorizations and things like that.
• 1:06:15
  So I think it'd be interesting to see how the market the
• 1:06:19
  industry and sort of the thing. Around this starts to fine-tune
• 1:06:24
  that I love that analogy, right? We've got a front door.
• 1:06:26
  I'll take it instead of the hotel.
• 1:06:28
  Like, okay, now we've got him in the house.
• 1:06:30
  How do we make sure that I go and get my medicine cabinet?
• 1:06:32
  All right, we're going to the liquor cabinet or if they are
• 1:06:34
  allowed, you know, can they get is that sorts of things?
• 1:06:37
  I think that's really kind of a natural evolution of that.
• 1:06:40
  All right, we're running over an hour now, but I want to, I want
• 1:06:43
  to end on a lighter note. And here's my question for you.
• 1:06:46
  This is not indicative of our guests any way, shape, or form.
• 1:06:49
  But let's just pretend End. You are a thief that steals only
• 1:06:55
  things that caused a minor inconvenience to your victims.
• 1:06:58
  What do you steal? So this isn't we're talking,
• 1:07:01
  we're not talking like Grand Theft, you know homicide.
• 1:07:05
  But I like that it's got to be something that's very you know
• 1:07:09
  very inconvenience is like oh that's super annoying.
• 1:07:12
  What's the thing that you steal? This is Jeff trying to end the
• 1:07:16
  light in them first so you know, that's that.
• 1:07:22
  It's an interesting one, I think.
• 1:07:26
  I can think of all sorts of things but I think the one that
• 1:07:29
  would that's small but would work me.
• 1:07:32
  Certainly I have run into this, not not through Steph but
• 1:07:35
  through let's call it user error.
• 1:07:37
  So if you're a, if you're a Mac Book user, you may remember, or
• 1:07:43
  in fact, have yet again, the wonderful magsafe power
• 1:07:47
  connector and they switch from like a 4-pin to a 6 pin or a
• 1:07:52
  6-pin 25. I can't remember which way
• 1:07:54
  around it was and you could get this Fantastic.
• 1:07:57
  Little adapter, right? That solved.
• 1:07:59
  All your problems and meant that you could use the old charger
• 1:08:01
  with the new thick. Yeah, I would steal that.
• 1:08:07
  If you found there the the gaping hole in the armor of the
• 1:08:10
  Maco world and dongle life is, as we like to call it.
• 1:08:14
  I think that's a good one, you know.
• 1:08:15
  I thought about this question myself is kind of sit here
• 1:08:17
  recording. And, you know, I think of things
• 1:08:20
  like, you know, stealing someone's chapstick, I'm
• 1:08:24
  thinking of something a little more nefarious, a very specific,
• 1:08:28
  I'm going to take a couple pieces of a Lego or a puzzle set
• 1:08:33
  or something like that that you cannot finish whatever it is,
• 1:08:37
  you're trying to build without that piece, that's evil that
• 1:08:42
  went to see. And the worst thing about that
• 1:08:44
  is I actually know how to solve for it as well.
• 1:08:46
  Which would require me to go buy a 3D printer, right?
• 1:08:49
  Exactly. Oh yeah.
• 1:08:53
  How many people have come across?
• 1:08:53
  Right? You're doing a puzzle, you're
• 1:08:55
  playing a game or something, right?
• 1:08:56
  And there's just that One piece missing or two or three, you
• 1:08:59
  know, and here's the thing. As I wouldn't take the last
• 1:09:02
  piece, I would take like those. The piece that's like five or
• 1:09:06
  six away from the end and really make a devious, that's the way I
• 1:09:10
  would do it. Yeah.
• 1:09:11
  Now that's, that's, that's Machiavellian.
• 1:09:14
  I think in its quality job. Thank you.
• 1:09:16
  Thank you very much. I will take that as a compliment
• 1:09:19
  and how it's not every day that I get to use the word
• 1:09:20
  Machiavelli and so this is true. I think that might be the first
• 1:09:23
  time actually on the show. So that'll be a tidbit for
• 1:09:26
  Jeopardy, when When will you become a Jeopardy question at
• 1:09:29
  some point, the future and even really great.
• 1:09:32
  If your time, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap things up here.
• 1:09:34
  I dunno versus coming up, May 30th to June 2nd.
• 1:09:37
  It's at the Aria Resort and Casino in Las Vegas.
• 1:09:41
  I will be there and you'll be there.
• 1:09:43
  Jim, theoretically be there, so we're hopeful, you know, come on
• 1:09:47
  up, introduce yourselves. You know, we love to engage with
• 1:09:50
  folks out there and talk and just have a conversation about
• 1:09:54
  whatever could be about Identity or it can be about, you know, my
• 1:09:57
  Terror. Ville stealing of Lego and
• 1:10:00
  puzzle pieces. That would really, you know,
• 1:10:02
  piss people off. Don't forget about our identity
• 1:10:05
  versus registration code. The discount 20% off its ID V
• 1:10:09
  Dash icen 23, it'll be on our show notes, you can always
• 1:10:14
  reference there. Thank you again.
• 1:10:15
  Andy and CRA for hooking us up with that and hooking our
• 1:10:17
  listeners up that. So hopefully people are able to
• 1:10:19
  take advantage of that we'll have links to identify first.com
• 1:10:23
  in our show notes, hindle consulting.com, connecting, Andy
• 1:10:28
  LinkedIn, and obviously can connect with Jim.
• 1:10:31
  And I, whenever you want, we're on the web.
• 1:10:33
  Idac podcast.com, or on Twitter at, idac podcasts, run,
• 1:10:37
  Mastodon. Even at idac podcast at infosec
• 1:10:41
  got exchanged. So, don't forget to check us out
• 1:10:43
  there and be sure to like subscribe, write a review, all
• 1:10:45
  that stuff, totally helps us and really keeps us encourage you
• 1:10:49
  keep putting out content. Real quick question for Andy.
• 1:10:51
  What are your thoughts on Mastodon?
• 1:10:52
  Are you on Mastodon yet? I am, I have just like two days
• 1:10:56
  ago set. Myself up to not ask me what my
• 1:11:00
  thing is, I'll give it to you afterwards, and you can stick it
• 1:11:02
  in the, in the show notes. I honestly can't remember.
• 1:11:06
  But yes, I am, I think, you know, it's, it seems like a
• 1:11:12
  healthy place to be for. Now, I'll be honest and say my,
• 1:11:17
  you know, I'm not a huge social media person, right?
• 1:11:20
  I do LinkedIn, a little bit more than anything else, but, yeah,
• 1:11:24
  I'm there. I know, lots of people are as
• 1:11:26
  well. Yes, I shall.
• 1:11:29
  I shall lick you up and we can we can connect and toot at each
• 1:11:34
  other or whatever it's called. It is a very weird thing.
• 1:11:38
  Yeah I'm glad you mentioned the the difficulty in Reading.
• 1:11:40
  That's my biggest problem with Macedon is is I don't feel like
• 1:11:43
  it's a very user-friendly experience.
• 1:11:46
  You have to know not only now that, you know the name but
• 1:11:49
  which server are you on? It just makes it another.
• 1:11:53
  Another problem to be solved at some point anyway.
• 1:11:56
  Okay, there. I go digressing again.
• 1:11:58
  All right, we're going to go ahead and wrap it up.
• 1:12:00
  Thank you very much. Andy for being special, guest
• 1:12:02
  co-host with me. This week will have Jim back on
• 1:12:05
  in the future. Don't worry, he's not going
• 1:12:06
  anywhere. He's just on assignments.
• 1:12:09
  So thanks for listening. And we'll talk with everyone in
• 1:12:12
  the next one. Thanks, everyone bye.
• 1:12:16
  You've been listening to Identity at the center.
• 1:12:19
  We hope you've enjoyed the show, make sure to like rate and
• 1:12:23
  review and we'll be back soon, but in the meantime hit the web
• 1:12:27
  Site at identity at the center.com and find us on
• 1:12:31
  Twitter at, idac podcast. See you next time on identity at
• 1:12:38
  the center