Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Creating A Kind Divorce - with Pepe Kish

Transcript

Creating A Kind Divorce - with Pepe Kish · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever you are on your relationship, journey, please conversation meeting.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Deeply supporting me.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Meeting you from where you are.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Completely aligned.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Deeply desire.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you're seeking a relationship and why, the lights are all of you.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're in the right place.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim, and Liberate.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And today I'm super excited to be welcoming Perpetua Kish as a guest on the podcast.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Pepi is the director and co-founder of Balance Family Law, and Pepe's goal is for kindness to be considered a strength and not a weakness in the practice of law.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: She's committed to improving the way couples and families experience divorce and separation and believes that while the law offers legal solutions, most family law issues really need a human solution.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so she strives to create solutions that consider both.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Peppy has practiced exclusively in family law since mid-2010 and is trained in conflict management, coaching, advanced collaborative law, and has postgrad qualifications in human services, among other things, I'm sure.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And she considers her superpower to be creative problem solving and thinking outside the box.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Peppy.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Great to have you on the podcast.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Sally, and I'm really happy to be here.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's so nice to read, yes, I read that bio, but it's so nice to read it because it reminds me of why our business is so aligned.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, reframing the family law experience for families going through it as a really human solution.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just love that.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it reminds, as I said, it reminds me why our businesses, our services are so, so closely aligned.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's been awesome to connect with you on social media.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually nice to see you.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: We can see each other to see you face to face for the first time and have this chat.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for coming along.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I thought we'd kick off.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share a little about your journey into family law and how you came to start Balance?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, of course.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been the director of Balance and together with Jonathan Naif, co-founder, we kicked things off in early 2019.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we did so because we really wanted to create a firm where we could act in a way or serve our clients away in a way that completely aligned with our values and what we felt was the right way to navigate a family law, a family law issue.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other, you know, working for other people, sometimes, you know, there's a certain way to do things.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: You do things the way they've always been done.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we wanted to challenge that.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So balance provided or provides us with an opportunity to really, yeah, make our ideas come to life and practice law kindly, compassionately, and with passion.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We we're really excited about it.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're really excited to mix things up and change things for people for the better in the family law space, um, clients and lawyers and other professionals, anyone who who works within the space.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so so good and so important to shape things up and do things differently, not just follow that same old pathway.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we've always done it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, branch out, be innovative, bring compassion and kindness into something that really is a human problem.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it has legal implications, but it's really a human issue when we're talking family law.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and also to make it more accessible.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So family law and family lawyers have this reputation as being super expensive and stressful, and you know, lawyers fighting, ending up in court.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: We want to dispel some of those myths, challenge them and say there is another way, uh, which is more accessible.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you've reached an agreement, we can we can help you with that and do it quickly, cheaply, efficiently, but also, you know, maintain the quality, like great quality.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if it is a little bit more complicated for you, you're facing some challenges, there's conflict, we can do that in a kinder way and and not escalate that conflict.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, what can we do to find the common ground and keep the peace or find the peace?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, find, create, build the peace.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Find create, yes.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than escalate, as you said, or or feed fire with fire.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So going on from that, what then are the different options available to couples who are separating, divorcing?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: What are the different pathways?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so if couples have reached an agreement, fabulous.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: The hard work is done, we say to them, we congratulate them.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we can assist them or lawyers can assist them to document their agreement.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a few ways to do that, but there are so many benefits to doing it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think people think, well, we get along, it's amicable, we don't need that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But uh if you don't have your agreement resolved, basically you're never going to have that sense of certainty.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, say down the track, for example, one of you or one party to a separation purchases a property with a new partner and they have children together.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so with the previous relationship, they have children together.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they're still in connect, they're still connected.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And through the course of that, they they might have a fallout.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the one of the parties goes and gets legal advice, finds out that they never properly documented their settlement, and finds out that the new property uh purchased by the other party is, you know, arguably in the asset pool available for division.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because the monies used to purchase that came from marital funds.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So certainty until you have that agreement made official, there is a risk that somebody could come back and say, hey, wait a minute, I want some of that, you know, and particularly in relation to superannuation.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important uh to get some advice and make sure you understand that making your agreement uh official is something that should not be discounted.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: If parties need a little more assistance, there is what we call the alternative dispute resolution pathways.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: My goal is to remove the alternative and just say dispute resolution, but there's mediation.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Mainstream mainstream media, mainstream resolution.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mainstream resolution pathways, absolutely.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there's mediation, which can be with a mediator who facilitates uh discussion between the parties, uh, or it can be lawyer-assisted, so lawyers come in to provide advice and guidance in that process.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Often that process is then a little bit more directive.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, then there is uh collaborative law, which is something we're really passionate about at uh at Balance, and it really turns the traditional model on its head because in collaborative law, uh, we take a team-based approach.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than uh the two lawyers acting for the parties uh working against each other or as adversaries, they come together and work as a team together with the parties and any other advisors, financial planners, psychologists, coaches, to help uh the couple or the family move on and resolve or address those problems together using that team-based approach and the idea that, you know, four, five, six minds are better than one.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you're you're more able to look at all the different options and go, okay, how can we, how can we resolve this?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's taking that holistic approach because the law is really only just one part of it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's a small part of it, Sally.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And even as a lawyer, I will say sometimes it's the smallest part, it's a necessary part, but by all means not the most important part a lot of the time.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that multidisciplinary approach to say, okay, maybe some financial advice is needed here.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe both parties would benefit getting some therapy.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's taking that holistic approach and doing a very bespoke uh, you know, taking a very bespoke approach to it so that people can have uh an agreement that suits them.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely not one size fits all.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not one size fits all, is it?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Not all now, not everybody can work together, Sally Ann.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So what we like to say to our clients, well, you could agree to disagree.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you have to go to court, where advocates particularly well, for property matters, uh for arbitration.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So arbitration is is almost like a private courtroom, but parties can approach it in a way where rather than going through the stress and the turmoil and the long delays that come with court, uh, they can they can take a very uh, I guess, practical approach and just say, look, we we are not able to agree.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's put uh the the case or our opposing views to an expert, uh, so a qualified um arbitrator, often they're an ex-family law um court judge anyway, and see what what they have to say.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be a really good way to help the parties decide that okay, these other options don't quite work for us, but rather than going down the court pathway, yeah, we're gonna resolve our matter in this effective way.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh occasionally court.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I say occasionally because some lawyers say to me, well, you know, matters are always going to end up in court.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'll talk more about it later, but I don't think so.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: We only have one matter in court at present from 60 plus, I think around 60, more than 60 active family law cases.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's testament to court really being the exception.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that particular that case has its own unique uh qualities, which means it's it has to be in court for one reason or another.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: But unless there's some level of complexity or there's uh you know a high degree of a power imbalance or one party's particularly vulnerable, uh, court isn't the best place for any matter to play out.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it is an option and uh sometimes the only option for certain families and situations.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is a necessary last resort option, I guess, isn't it?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: If those other if those other pathways are the those other options just aren't working.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, if there's a power imbalance or a specific vulnerability, it's necessary.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens then if one party wants to be collaborative or wants to um move down a collaborative pathway and the other party or the other uh partner is fixed in conflict?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: What happens then?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: It happens a lot, Sally Ann.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know, and that's why I asked the question.
• 11:44
  unknown: Okay.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think the approach, well, the approach that we take is to be consistent.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And often we're advising the client who is the the more collaborative of the two, and they are exasperated, they're they're confused, they're over it really.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what to do now?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: What to do?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, look, we need to be consistent.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Often there is a sense of mistrust, often one party might feel betrayed, or they could simply be overwhelmed, uh, fearful or grieving uh about what's happened.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this, these feelings can manifest as a fixed mindset or as conflict between them.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I say, look, if you you know, they're expecting us as the lawyer to act in a certain way.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're expecting you to act in a certain way.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because all the pop culture out there, what their well-intentioned friends are saying, what other advisors might be saying is that this is the way it's going to play out.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Divorce is an ugly thing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it often ends up in a shit fight.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so those feelings will be in that person's head.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the last thing we want to do is live up to that expectation.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I say we need to be consistent.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: We always begin correspondence with the other party, um, often a self-represented party, by addressing those elephants, by addressing that fear, by saying, look, it's this is, you know, probably really scary to receive something from us.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: But we want to bust a few of those myths here and now.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we do that.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: We write to them in a very informal way, often an email if I can't engage them on the phone, uh, and say, we're here to work with you, not against you.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, let's do this.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Think of us as a guide rail.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're here for you and your ex as much or as little as you need.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: We do have to point out to them we can only act for one party, but we can certainly provide guidance as to the options available to them to both of them.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And where both where where a lawyer is required for both parties, we can make referrals to other kind and understanding practitioners.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, back to working with our clients is be consistent.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: If we turn around and say, okay, it didn't work, let's revert to how it's always done.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you get the typical letter, you know, we are instructed by XYZ, you need to do XYZ.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't do XYZ within seven days, we'll take steps to file at court without further nervous um notice to you.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, who responds well to threats?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's, you know, we want to hold that back or perhaps never use that at all.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we owe it to our clients to try and achieve an amicable outcome.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so they may not always want to hear it.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Often it's the client saying, Well, just tell them that we'll go to court.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And said, Well, yeah, how would you respond to that?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: How would you feel?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bring back the compassion and the kindness and and the empathy into the into the space.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I noticed um there's a line on your website um which really resonated with me.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I pulled it, I pulled it out.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it is with a positive perspective, the end of a relationship can actually be an opportunity to transform your life.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I really love that because that is really why reflect coaching exists.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want that for my clients and and I want that experience for anybody going through divorce.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I loved, I loved reading that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you or how does the team at balance support that transformation in your clients?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know Sally, and you and I are passionate about working with clients on their mindset.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, often clients are so keen when they come to see me to get that legal advice, but I'm conscious of giving that advice to them if they're in a space where they're holding a fixed mindset or they're being quite positional, because we know what will happen.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: They'll just grab the bits of that advice that align with that narrative and move forward, perpetuating that fixed mindset.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So saying something like that to the client is is is what I will do.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say, okay, I will give you the advice.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, it will come.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I help them to understand that if they receive it when they're not yet ready to receive it, it could have an impact on them that adversely uh affects things moving forward.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So often when a client comes to see me, as I said, they're keen to hear the advice and I'll say, Stop, just wait, hear me out.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna listen to you.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna listen to you talk me, talk talk to me about your story, why you're here, what's concerning you.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm going to uh say a few things, but I'm not going to necessarily give you that advice as yet.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And initially they arc up and go, oh, but I want it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: But as we progress through that discussion, um, in a gentle way, I try and, you know, sometimes I don't even have to really say anything.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you guide that conversation, they they sometimes make their own real realizations or they have their own epiphanies, but it's on working on that mindset and being very big picture in the sense of, you know, picking your battles, that type of thing.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: But also, what are your goals, your interests, your values?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: What's important to you?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we keep that going forward beyond your separation and divorce?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, often they're like, it's over, the relationship's over.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I want nothing to do with this person.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll have to go back to them and say, well, you've got kids together.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: The relationship's not really over, it's just changing.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I can only really help you if I help you navigate that change.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're not dealing with a reality where it's over.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And even if there aren't any children, there's a lot of admin to get done that requires them to communicate well.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the admin continues beyond the the ink drawing on any agreement.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important for them to recognize that and then really focus on how their mindset might help or hinder that process.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you talk about big picture because again, that's what I that's where I start with my clients, even when they're in the messy middle of navigating a separation, divorce.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I start taking them right to the end.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, how do you want this to look and feel?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: How do you want your life to look and feel in five, 10, 20 years' time?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just like, I didn't care about that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to, you know, I just want to get this stuff sorted.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, no.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Getting this stuff sorted is about moving towards that life you most want to be living in five years' time.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's let's start at the end, let's start at the end, your values and all that, all of that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Love it, love it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there you go.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna say something.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I was actually watching a TV show the other day, and somebody used the phrase, oh, they want to go from A to Z and ignore all the letters in between.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's exactly that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I say to the client, yeah, you you're here at A, and now you're saying, okay, what do I need to do to get to Z?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of letters in between.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let's work through those.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's them having that understanding and also uh addressing those expectations head on by saying, you know, I'm your lawyer, I'm not here to fix the problem, I'm here to help you fix your problem with support, guidance, advice, advocacy where required.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and going back to the A to Z or A to Z um concept, if you can define what your end point is, what your Z is, what your Z is, then you know what your first step from A is going to look like.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: You might not know exactly what it is, but you know that okay, if I step this way, I'm headed towards my end goal.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if I head down this way, it's taking me away from what I most want for myself.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So lots and lots of letters in between.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: You talk a lot about kindness and kindness being really um key to your work in family law and and to balance.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I wondered if you could speak to that a little.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: What part does kindness play in in your work as a family practitioner?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Family law, sorry, family law practitioner.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess you're a family practitioner, but anyway, family law practitioner.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I am often rethinking because I feel like lawyer has so many connotations that I'm not always comfortable with and presents a barrier in itself.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I often have to uh you know challenge people's expectations of what a lawyer is, what they do, and you know, what I'm able to do for them.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, the kind lawyers is a bit of a response to that because people don't generally associate uh kindness and lawyering.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And back, I think in 2016, I started a little Instagram page called The Kind Lawyer.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I when I I remember, I remember the exact moment where I heard of the phrase, because you know, there were a few other lawyers around at that point.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's the wonderful Clarissa Rayword, the happy family lawyer.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think there was another type of lawyer, insert adjective lawyer.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I just thought, well, what resonates with me?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kindness.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I Googled it because I thought, oh, surely there's this other sort of kindness and you know, lawyering.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there was nothing.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: There was nothing.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I found one article from some obscure little journal somewhere, and this is back in 2016.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more now.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, okay, okay.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that the first part is yeah, challenging those expectations.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's come from a not a selfish place, but from a self serving space, in that my goal is for lawyer um clients to come and see a lawyer and already know about kind options, uh, it not being so foreign to them that I then have to basically.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Say, okay, I've got to reconfigure, reprogram, you know, work heavily on the mindset which we talked about before.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more about, well, what can I do or what can we do as a community to make all of that normalize kindness in law.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that people are less mistrustful, less adversarial, less defensive.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think if you approach someone with kindness, they're if you're consistent, once again, consistency is key.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because kindness without consistency is just token kindness, really.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's there's no substance.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think taking that into account, you know, you meet people who are frightened, defensive, kindness is the antidote.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it really is, because it's putting a priority on really listening to understand, on compassion, and on recognizing that everybody can do something to create a better outcome.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody can say, okay, how can I make this easier?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: How can I make this friendlier?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do to be less of a dick?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody can do that, you know.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's really normalizing behaviors.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and all too often uh I think clients can hide behind lawyer letters, hide behind an ostensible process that, well, that's what the law says, this is what my lawyer says, this is the way it's always been done.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, but really uh would they behave that way?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like the internet trolls, like people feel they can write nasty things because they're behind a screen.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of the same, uh similar analogy, really.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's saying, well, if you had to do this with every the whole world watching, how would you conduct yourself so that you wouldn't be perceived as a dick or the bad one?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: You'll get a few people who go, I don't give a shit.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, and that, you know, that's a select type of person.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: But most people I think will reflect and say, okay, there's a nicer way to do it, or I could I could do something to make this situation easier, not just for the other person, but ultimately for myself.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's really crucial too, that you make you're making these decisions and making a choice to do it kindly.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it benefits the other person, but it really benefits you primarily.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then if if you do have children, it benefits the children because they see kindness.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: They see you being kind to one another even as you dismantle your intimate relationship and move forward in a different way.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's really powerful and really important.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too normalizing separation, divorce in a kind, collaborative way can be really powerful in terms of other people, other professionals, or just other people seeing it done kindly so that when a couple decides to separate, they're not flooded with all the the oh my god kind of messaging.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's gonna turn into a shit fire.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you go to your hairdresser, you're having your haircut, and she asks how you are.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, look, we're you know, we're separating.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't turn into this drama of, oh my god, my clients, you know, we normalize.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a it's a it's just a reorganization of a family in a really kind, compassionate way.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that all of the other people involved don't have the, you know, the major drama story to share about somebody else's disaster.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I loved Sally Ann, that little uh Instagram reel, the video that you did about what not to say to people getting a divorce.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: It actually inspired a presentation that I'm doing for a few professionals where uh yeah, I I like to refer to other professionals or even the hairdresser that you talk about as sort of the first responders uh uh to a family law crisis.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: You'll you'll go to someone like your hairdresser and go, oh, I'm separating.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll go, oh my God, did you hear what happened to so and so?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or this was my sister's daughter's brother's aunt's experience.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And often it's a horror story.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So people will, yeah, inadvertently fuel a defensive mindset, a frightened mindset, a fixed mindset, because of how they describe what they know.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the kindness uh element is really wanting to, you know, kill it, kill it with kindness, kill those myths with kindness, you know.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So people go, actually, I've heard about you know this movement about you know being really kind in law and and just getting really great outcomes and not fighting and it's changing, you know, that's our first responders.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking of that, can you um you reminded me I wanted you to share a little bit about the kind lawyers?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love the kind lawyers.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I often say that, you know, we cut we're known to do things differently, we do law differently at balance, but in family law, often there's another lawyer, or there's always two parties.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can't divorce yourself, you know.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm doing things, or if Johnno and I at Balance are doing things so differently to everyone else, we can't really create much of an impact.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we need other people to do it with you.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And thankfully uh we've worked with some sensational professionals, and some of those professionals are our now kind lawyers group.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and we're not only lawyers, we've got a wonderful uh family therapist, mediator, and parenting coordinator Amy McGinn in the group, and we've got a number of other mediators and dispute people who work in the dispute resolution space more than the sort of the traditional legal space in the group as well.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: But we're coming together to say, look, we're working together, we're modeling a kinder way of doing things, we're modeling a team-based approach.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And through that, we're hoping to create a better experience for families and couples going through a divorce or separation.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And together, we want to, you know, say, we're not trying to say we're really different from, you know, the next law firm in a bid to get your business.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying, look, at the end of the day, this is a movement.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't uh an attempt to get more clients and money.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if if that's an impact of it, great, you know, there's more people divorcing with kindness, but it's just a commitment to lawyer in in accordance and in an alignment with our values.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as humans.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's got to be also beneficial to you as practitioners, because if you're working in a kind way as opposed to in a really high conflict space all the time, it's much better for everybody.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So clients, yes, but you as practitioners as well.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, a part of it is is aimed at practitioners because practitioners don't want to.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, unless you're, you know, you love pain and misery, and there are some people in the community who might take pleasure in that, but it's not pleasant to be in the midst of conflict.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not pleasant to send nasty letters and threats and, you know, annihilate somebody in the witness box during a trial.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think most people enjoy that.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so this is an antidote to that, and this is really saying there is a much better way.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say alternative, it's a much better way to do things where there are good outcomes for everybody involved.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, if done well, lawyers can still make a buck, they can still thrive in business.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: They just need to think outside the box, think creatively, and prioritize kindness.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, with your commitment to kindness in your work, Peppy, what what ripple effect do you see with that approach?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, in your work, but in your life more broadly?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's definitely the ultimate accountability challenge.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm spearheading a kindness movement.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to be kind.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, there's that.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: But uh in terms of my personal life, some people know that I'm also an ethical vegan.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, to me, and you know, it's different for everybody, but for me, it's all about making connections and how your actions have an impact on others.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: For me, very important to me is the impact on the earth and on our uh on the fellow species that we share this earth with.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something important to me.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh that ripple effect is just is that accountability and acknowledging the connection of our impact on other people, on things, et cetera, et cetera.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's realizing that we have in our control to make things better for others, which in turn makes things better for ourselves.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, trust me on that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, it doesn't always happen overnight, but it will happen.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: What did they say in that shampoo commercial all those years ago?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's just it's it's it comes down to that basic karma.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: You put out and it will come back.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it comes back in the strangest of ways.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in that regard, I think true champions of kindness have to be prepared for the challenges that they will inevitably face.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, kindness is often seen as I've talked about it, I think, before, about you know, maybe being weak, passive, not strong.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's how we respond to challenges that suggest that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, once again, picking, picking your battles, realizing, okay, the easy natural kind of reaction at this point might be to arc up, to to respond in a way that could make everybody feel upset and maybe regretful after that has happened.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just about keeping yourself in check, breathing and and and saying, okay, what can we do differently to have a better outcome?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's that reflective function, really, but happening at that micro level.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, and it it takes practice, but saying or naming, identifying yourself as a kind lawyer is a or a kind person is the first step in in seeing that really manifest in your career and and beyond.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And your wider life.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too, acknowledging that um kindness is not always the gentle, passive, easy path.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes choosing the kindest stance or kindest way is more difficult.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: As you said, it's really easy to be reactive and responsive and fly off the hill.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always easy.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, from from someone who's on a lifelong journey about it, you know, managing that and choosing to not respond and choose kind, choose kindness is is difficult at times.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it is, it can be a real challenge to be kind sometimes.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I've started saying this a little bit more lately, is that it's quite lazy to not be kind because in the in the legal space, we've got this framework which can be very helpful.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when determining a property settlement, for example, you're guided by four steps, uh, which you know the law says X, Y, and Z, and those four steps assist not only the lawyer, but the the parties navigating that divorce on okay, this is the way to go to reach this just and equitable outcome.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the legal framework, all well and good, but humans don't always, you know, fit nicely into a framework.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I have seen lawyers who, you know, when when they come up against challenges, they revert to, oh, well, this is what the law says, and I'm using my hands now.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: The listeners won't see it, but they just try and make someone fit into that mold because that's what suits them, that's what they know.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then they don't have to think outside the box, they just blindly uh uh apply the framework, what you know, the courts say, what other cases have said, without really truly listening to the client.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And without, you know, when you don't, when you listen, all these other little things sort of pop up and you go, oh wow, I'm I'm hearing the client say that.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's another outcome, that's another option right there.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: We can work with that.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think lawyers have to remember, yes, ostensibly we're the experts, but we're not the experts of the client's life.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's the client's life.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: We shouldn't profess to take that client, that, that client's problem and say, here, this is what the law says.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll wrap it all up for you in a lovely parcel of legal advice, and there you go, you've got your right answer there.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: If that worked, we wouldn't have the issues that we do.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: We wouldn't have, you know, uh divorce and family lawyers having such a bad name.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: What we need to do is really listen.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: We need to help clients be accountable to own their problems, and then give them the tools to resolve it themselves.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say the tools, uh, lawyers aren't always the best people to provide that assistance.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: We can certainly provide a lot of it.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And a skilled lawyer with a high EQ can do a hell of a lot of good.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there are others like yourself, coaches, uh, psychologists, uh, therapists, financial planners, accountants, a whole heap of people that can come together to provide that guidance and really put a number of options on the table so the family, the clients, the couples can look at them and go, okay, that that that's helpful.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can use that to move forward.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really empowering um couples to see, you know, that yeah, there are going to be some challenges, but with the right support and assistance, they can do it all themselves.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could send one message out into the world of family law, I think I know your answer, but I'm gonna ask the question anyway.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: If I could, if you could send one message out into the world of family law, what would it be?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, I'm actually not going to say the K-word, but I am gonna say something fairly close to it, and that's work together.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And by working together, you know, sometimes a couple, for whatever reason, they they can't work together.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: They need somebody to come in or they need lawyers or other professionals to come in to assist.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: If that's the case and you happen to be one of those lawyers, don't make your opponent, the other lawyer, your um adversary.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Work with them.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Look for the common ground.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh by working together, it doesn't mean that you're making your, it doesn't have to mean that your your client is now vulnerable because you're going to give up information or reveal your Achilles heel.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, vulnerability, I think, is something that, you know, lawyers don't like any part of it, seen as a weakness.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to know, you don't want anyone to know your vulnerabilities.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's not going to help with this overall strategy.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the flip side to that is there's a real strength in showing your vulnerability because then it can't be used against you.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're owning it.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're saying, here it is, these are my issues.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am accountable for them.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am working through them.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can't use them as a sword against me.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just taking that into account.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when two lawyers decide to work together, even in high conflict matters, because I'm working with some amazing lawyers, and you know, we're in a high conflict case that may even potentially go to court.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: When we can work together, it's such a better experience for us as the lawyers and such a better experience for the families involved.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, just lawyers, if you're listening, um, just really think about it and think about how you could do things to make things better for yourself, but also for your clients by perhaps doing all the things you were taught not to do.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Breaking the rules, then breaking the rules, oh yeah, we break all the rules.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Rules were made to be reconcilient.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, from one rebel to another.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so last question for you.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's a bit of a strange one, it's a bit outside the box, but I know that you're a dance mum.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're a dance mum, and I know you're a, you know, you're a performer.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm assuming that music is a part of all of that.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So my question is if you could choose a song or a couple of songs to offer your clients when they're in that messy middle part of their separation, divorce, what would they be?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm a big Aussie rock fan.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: People are surprised when they hear me say that.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the song that I'm going to say is Dancing in the Storm by Boom Crash Opera.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I must have had this song when I was a kid, and then it just sort of I didn't hear it for many, many years.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then I rediscovered my love of Aussie Rock, and it came up one day not that long ago, and I thought, oh, this is a great song.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's kind of happy but also melancholic, and it's empowering, but also, I mean, exactly that.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's dancing in the storm.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's the storm is the the difficult silhouette situation, the challenge, but you're still finding joy somehow.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's that's what I'd say.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I love music.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Music sort of defines me what I'm listening to, can really shape my mood.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I also have to be careful because I I do like my melancholy colic soundtracks.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but no, dancing in the storm, beam crush opera.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Check it out.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Love it, love it.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm probably gonna reveal my age here to say when I say that I owned that album on vinyl and it's still here in the house somewhere.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, so you have to dig it out.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know the song, and I'll add it into the show notes um for anybody who's listening who wants to check it out.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining me today, Peppy.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's just been such a pleasure, and I think we could probably chat on and on and on for hours and hours.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: But absolutely.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for sharing your story, the balance story, and um sprinkling a little bit of kindness in there for us all.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Sally.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure talking with you this afternoon.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Peppy.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: So great to have you sprinkle both kindness and wisdom here today.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Listeners, if you would like to connect with Peppy, the website is www.balancefamilylaw.com.au.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Instagram handles for both Balance and the Kind Lawyers.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'll drop in the show notes along with that amazing boom crash opera song.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to catching you in another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate very soon.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Until then.