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Joining a CEO Peer Group with Scot McRoberts · Budget Your Business

• 0:00
  Scott: Hello, and welcome to Budget Your Business, the podcast for small business owners who want to learn how to financially plan for every aspect of their business.
• 0:10
  Scott: I'm your host, Scott Geller.
• 0:12
  Scott: Today I'm joined by Scott McRoberts of Virginia Council of CEOs to talk about joining a CEO peer group.
• 0:21
  Scott: Welcome, Scott.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Great to be here.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Scott.
• 0:24
  Scott: Absolutely.
• 0:26
  Scott: For folks who are meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I've um helped found Virginia Council CEOs about 25 years ago, had before that had a couple of jobs in nonprofit associations.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been a nonprofit executive my whole career, but had the good fortune of just bumping into a need back in 2000, this sort of void in the marketplace.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: No one was providing peer round tables for CEOs in Richmond, Virginia.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: And uh also the good luck of uh having some uh CEOs and business owners who were excited about building something.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and we created this nonprofit um called Virginia Council CEOs almost 25 years ago.
• 1:14
  Scott: Well, I I I had to admit, I I know we we've seen each other in Richmond Networking and Chatted a number of times.
• 1:20
  Scott: I did not realize they'd been around for that long.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, overnight a success.
• 1:26
  Scott: That's great.
• 1:27
  Scott: I'm sure it was.
• 1:28
  Scott: Just like everything is, right?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:31
  Scott: Uh well, let's kind of start with what exactly is a peer advisory or or CFO or CEO group?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So um there are lots of organizations and and folks that do this, but uh a peer advisory group or a CEO roundtable or a confidential peer round table, all sort of different ways to subscribe this idea, describe this idea that you convene a small group and and the the ideal small group size is is eight to ten.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: You convene that group in a in a confidential setting with a set structure and guidelines and um set it up so that people can help each other and learn from each other.
• 2:18
  Scott: Okay.
• 2:19
  Scott: So so you touched on it there, Scott.
• 2:21
  Scott: Um, you know, you you you kind of learn from each other and and work with other CEOs, but what do I, what else do I get out of it as a business owner?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I like to say one of the problems we solve for with Virginia Council of CEOs is that lonely at the top problem.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you you know that, and your your clients, your clients know that, you know, you even if you've got uh a bunch of employees and even a management team, you're still if you're the CEO, you're the owner, you've you've got uh all that weight on your shoulders, and there are many things that you just can't talk about with your with your uh your employees and management team.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what I hear from um my members all the time is uh this sort of sigh of relief when they land in a group of other CEOs who are all feeling the same way and oh, I've found my people.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I can they understand exactly the the walk that I'm walking and uh they understand you know the the burden of leadership and and um that they're there to support each other.
• 3:27
  Scott: So Scott, a lot of times when I when I start talking to a business owner, they they feel like I'm the only one that can't do XYZ or or you know ABC isn't going well.
• 3:40
  Scott: To me, that these these are problems that I see across my clients and when I talk to other companies.
• 3:45
  Scott: Is that is that part of that you know sigh of relief that you see?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: The um another common thing I hear from uh from CEOs is wow, we we all have the same problems.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whether whether you're in a service business or distribution or manufacturing, or if you're small or you're large, they always say, uh it's funny, we all have the same problems.
• 4:12
  Scott: Yeah.
• 4:14
  Scott: Now, do I have to be a business owner to join one of these?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you have to be a for for our group, you have to be a CEO.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for us, that means you're the you're the top executive of an independent organization, and the buck stops with you.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we have um most of our members are the the business owner or the primary owner of the business, but we also have um members who are uh part of an equal partnership, and um they're the partner that makes the most sense to participate with us.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then we have a handful of uh usually larger company CEOs who are who are not the owner but are hired to run the company.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: So as long as that you know you're sitting in that lonely seat and the buck stopped with you, that's that's who we serve.
• 5:02
  Scott: Gotcha.
• 5:03
  Scott: And what what size of companies do you typically see uh joining joining these groups?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we serve a wide range of folks.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we start as small as um a CEO or owner of a million-dollar company, million-dollar annual revenue, and five employees, and on up, you know, we and we have we have CEOs of some pretty large organizations, all all privately held, no, no public corporations, so we don't get up into the um those kind of executives.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: But um our average um the average company size for our membership is about seven or eight million dollars.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: So the majority of our members are small business owners.
• 5:49
  Scott: Right.
• 5:49
  Scott: Okay.
• 5:50
  Scott: That makes sense.
• 5:52
  Scott: Uh how how does so if I'm a business owner thinking about going down this path, how do I how do I find the right organization?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's there's a number of them out there, and um I'm I'm a I'm such an evangelist for the idea that people need pure roundtables that uh I wrote a I wrote a blog post or something recently that said um I don't care which one you join.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:22
  Scott: Right.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: I I and I, you know, I of course I want you to join Virginia Council CEOs, but only if it's the right fit.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and there are so there are nonprofits like us that are member-led.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are for-profits that are uh led by a coach or consultant, usually, um, and everything in between.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: So um I, you know, the the surest way to figure it out is to talk to other business owners and CEOs who are in those organizations and ask about their experience.
• 6:55
  Scott: Okay.
• 6:56
  Scott: You so you mentioned the the member-led versus the the for-profit led by a consultant.
• 7:03
  Scott: Is that is that kind of a uh is that a standard dividing line between these types of groups?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's you know, there's uh a big one that's international called Vistage that is uh owned by private equity, and they essentially license the the process to a they call a chair who who builds a group and runs a group.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a for-profit model.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's just different.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Our model again is is member-led.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: I I answer to a board of eight of our members, and they set the strategy and direction for our group.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we have the advantage as a nonprofit association of leveraging sponsors, which help keep our dues low and help resource us with expertise.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, we have a I think we have a bigger community because of that, and so that's an advantage.
• 7:57
  Scott: Okay.
• 7:58
  Scott: Yeah, I like that.
• 8:00
  Scott: I found my group.
• 8:02
  Scott: Um how do I how do I get placed in a group?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I'll I get to know every member is sort of they come through the door to us where they you know they're gonna they're gonna talk to some of our members and decide that it's the right thing for them.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get to know them a little bit.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um we have a queue for assignment to groups, and and we're we're gonna look for places in existing groups that we have.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we have 20, 21 round tables across the state right now.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, or we may start a new one.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh when we start a group or we're placing someone in an existing group, we always first look to avoid competitors because what we want in a round table experience is you to have that confidence that you can walk in there and be open and honest and share everything that's going on.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: We don't want you to have any hindrances to that, so we avoid competitors, suppliers, customers, relatives, investors, all those things.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and then we just we just do a little gut check both ways, you know.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: It says here's the people involved in the group.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Everything looked good to you, and the group looks the other the other way and and does a check.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, the the cool thing is, Scott, that the the process we use, it's so solid and time-tested in our in our roundtable meetings, um, that you can almost throw anybody into a group as long as there's no conflicts, and they will um just mesh in and become a part of the group very quickly.
• 9:37
  Scott: And I imagine part of this joining a group and and uh being ready for that, uh you there's I'm sure that you've got to be kind of prepared um to as a business owner to go down this path.
• 9:53
  Scott: So how should a business owner kind of prep for joining one of these types of organizations?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know that there's a lot of preparation needed, Scott.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: The the the one thing that's really needed is commitment.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the idea uh a business owner has to decide, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna commit half a day a month to this because it's important for for my own growth as a leader, for my own learning as a business owner.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'm gonna block that time and I'm gonna protect it, and I'm gonna be there every time.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna bring my whole self and I'm gonna arrange it so that I'm not getting emergency calls from work during that four-hour meeting and and all those things.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that that's the hardest part.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, other than that, again, the the the time-tested process we use, which is a very structured agenda that uh has timings on everything and and involves everyone in the meeting.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um just you know, you don't prepare, you just roll into it and it works.
• 10:57
  Scott: I I imagine that you have to be ready to be very open and and honest and and sharing with with this type of uh of group.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's the objective.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um everybody comes in, you know, a little different.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh the um you know the the way we uh structure the meeting, the way we um talk about confidentiality, um the we do exercises that help people get to know each other and trust each other.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um it moves people down that path toward openness and vulnerability.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and and frankly, what I find is most people are looking for a place like that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have it and and they want it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and occasionally uh I run into people who don't want that and aren't comfortable with that, and that's okay.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is not for them.
• 11:51
  Scott: So speaking of the the people that are in it, you you mentioned uh you know, at least one if at least one partner, if let's say that there's multiple partners or owners of a business.
• 12:03
  Scott: Do you recommend or do you do you yeah, do you recommend both of them coming in or just one of them?
• 12:09
  Scott: Do you do you split them up?
• 12:10
  Scott: How do you handle a business that has multiple multiple owners or partners, and they both are interested in this in this type of program?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um if they're if they're equal owners, if they're equally, you know, the buck stops equally with these folks, um, it's possible that they could both join.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that hadn't been my experience.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Usually one of them decides they decide that one of them is better suited or more appropriate for this, and they find something else for the other person.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I rare I rarely have both partners come into the group.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not impossible.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's just um, you know, it's just the way it's worked.
• 12:49
  Scott: Okay.
• 12:50
  Scott: Okay.
• 12:51
  Scott: And are most of these done in person?
• 12:55
  Scott: Most of these meetings done in, you know, and I I'm sure COVID probably uh put a slight wrinkle in maybe in what you did previously.
• 13:04
  Scott: How do you manage that in-person and virtual uh option?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, here in 2024, they are all in person.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, um during the pandemic and the lockdowns, we all went virtual.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And frankly, we had been experimenting with some virtual meetings before then, thank goodness, because we were well equipped and ready and really seamlessly moved to virtual meetings.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it was a really powerful time for us, actually, because I think we supported uh the business owners and CEOs who belonged to us really well.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and many of our round tables, instead of a monthly meeting, decided, you know, things are moving so fast, we got to meet every week.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And they did.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: And because it was virtual, that was pretty easy to do.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um but once um restrictions loosened and things got safer, every single group we had said, oh, we need to get back in person, and I hope we never have to have a virtual meeting again.
• 14:04
  Scott: Um that's that that that's really interesting.
• 14:09
  Scott: Well, why do you think that was, Scott?
• 14:11
  Scott: And I'm I'm curious about you know why do they want that in-person uh um you know interaction?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well, maybe it's just me, but when I'm in a virtual meeting, I'm not a hundred percent there.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yes.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm you know, there's stuff on my desk, there's probably stuff on another screen.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there might be stuff going out on outside my office door.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but when I'm in a uh a confidential space with eight or nine other folks at a roundtable meeting, I'm a hundred percent there.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I that's the big difference.
• 14:46
  Scott: Yeah, I I can I can definitely see that.
• 14:48
  Scott: I've I've listened to somebody else recently and and talk about how often others something else is always going on in the background, right?
• 14:55
  Scott: And exactly regardless of how much you're trying, there's always something that's trying to grab your attention.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and the you know, the the person on the other side of the table may be talking about uh an issue that is existential to their business or their family or their life.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And to not be 100% there for that person is just uh just wrong.
• 15:20
  Scott: Yeah.
• 15:22
  Scott: What kind of I think you touched on a little bit, but what kind of time commitment does this does this entail?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so when when a CEO or business owner joins us, uh we have um we have roundtable groups for for small business owners that that meet monthly.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's about a four-hour meeting.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then we have um forum groups, we call them, for um CEOs of more complex organizations.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, usually 75 employees and up, usually multiple locations, rapid growth, those kind of situations lead us to put somebody into a forum group.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Our forum groups meet every other month for most of a day instead of monthly.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they meet with the help of a facilitator.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just a little bit different format.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: They do the same work, the same agenda, um, but just a little different structure.
• 16:12
  Scott: Okay.
• 16:13
  Scott: And if I'm looking at going down this this route and joining one, uh maybe it's it's a ballpark, so I'm sure you different groups are different are have different costs, but like how much do I need to consider investing in this type of group?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um it's it's less expensive than an executive coach.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's a few hundred bucks a month.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and again, we're um our pricing is really favorable because we're have nonprofit status and supportive sponsors and all that.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: But um the you know, the the the biggest cost is the time.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta you gotta allocate that that half day or that a month or a day every other month.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, the cost is usually not a not an objection for most folks.
• 16:57
  Scott: Right.
• 16:58
  Scott: Okay.
• 16:59
  Scott: If I'm so you you're Scott, you the the Virginia Council CEOs, based on the name and and what you're saying, is really based in the state of Virginia, correct?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we started in Richmond back in 2000.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've uh we've got roundtables now in Charlottesville and in Roanoke, and we are always looking for opportunities to expand further.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I've you know, I've got some hopefully some things cooking in Northern Virginia right now.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: I've got some possibilities in uh the Hampton Roads Tidewater area as well.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we hope to get into those markets in the next year or two.
• 17:37
  Scott: Okay.
• 17:38
  Scott: So so if I'm spreading, if I'm listening and I'm somewhere else in the state of Virginia, then then reaching out to you might be a good idea.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, timing's good.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're sort of we've got a lot of interest uh in both of those markets, and we're sort of collecting um those those folks together, and and when we have some critical mass, we'll we'll launch some roundtables.
• 17:58
  Scott: Okay.
• 17:59
  Scott: Well, I I know I do have some listeners that are outside the state of of Virginia.
• 18:04
  Scott: And if I am, how do I go about finding an organization like this?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um they're welcome to contact me.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: I know folks all over, I'm in a actually in a peer group of the CEOs of CEO peer groups.
• 18:18
  Scott: I like that.
• 18:20
  Scott: Does it go another level above that too, Scott?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of meta.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: That uh it's it's fun to describe it, but uh I meet with these folks and they're they're actually global.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've got uh I've got uh a group in Silicon Valley, uh, one up in Boston, one in Canada, uh Atlanta, um uh Poland, and Australia.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we we all do the same work, you know, we all have a little different structures and flavors, but and and then I'm very I'm pretty familiar with the the larger national organizations that have chapters around EO and YPO uh and vistage.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: So uh if you know I'd be happy to make a referral or a connection with with any of those folks.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, they're they're they're not terribly hard to find, but I I'd certainly be happy to talk to someone and give them some direction.
• 19:10
  Scott: Okay.
• 19:11
  Scott: So so basically you're you're drinking your own water here, Scott, right?
• 19:14
  Scott: You're joining a a CEO group, uh for a CEO that run these councils.
• 19:18
  Scott: I like that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm actually in two peer round tables.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I have another one that is uh CEOs of statewide associations in Virginia.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: So a little different flavor.
• 19:29
  Scott: Okay.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 19:30
  Scott: Great.
• 19:31
  Scott: Well, what are some do's and don'ts for for thinking about joining one of these groups?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've never ever had a CEO say, boy, I'm really glad I waited to join one of these groups.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a lot of them say, dang, I wish I'd done this five years ago.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And real realizing the the barriers to joining are mainly, you know, uh, how do I add another meeting to my calendar?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's not enough time to do what I need to do right now, and you're asking me to take half a day a month um to do this.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um my response to that is uh no one in this group out of 230 CEOs has the time either.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: But they find it important enough and rewarding enough that it uh they make it work.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think I think the other um thought I have is um it's it's like any other sort of um engagement with a bunch of people, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: So if you come into that with that giving mentality with the idea that you're here to uh to help other people, you're gonna get more in return.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we are uh very much not a uh networking leads group.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um this is develop business development is not uh one of our one of our um attributes.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: So um occasionally someone slips through that doesn't understand that and they're thinking this is the greatest opportunity for them in the world to get a bunch of clients or customers, and it doesn't work that way.
• 21:15
  Scott: So uh that's a really good point, Scott.
• 21:18
  Scott: I probably should have asked you that.
• 21:19
  Scott: This that is a you know a clear distinction between you know the traditional B and I or Nexco or or any of these other networking groups where it's say um uh sharing leads and and and and really for pure networking, this is this is really for you to get to better yourself, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and those groups are great, they just serve a different purpose.
• 21:42
  Scott: Correct, correct.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and then I would say also that lots of business happens.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Lots.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And but it's because two years down the road you have a relationship with somebody in the group and you trust them and you want to buy from them.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's the way it happens.
• 22:00
  Scott: Well, Scott, uh, we we like to wrap up our shows with one to three immediate budging budgeting takeaways.
• 22:08
  Scott: And and typically where I go with this is what are three takeaways that somebody can, as soon as they turn off the podcast, they can go institute in in their business.
• 22:19
  Scott: Given that this is a little bit a little bit different and and you work with so many different business owners, I'm gonna take a to just change it up a little slightly.
• 22:30
  Scott: So I hope hope you don't mind here.
• 22:32
  Scott: Sure.
• 22:32
  Scott: Uh what are some of the the key attributes or actions that you see the most common across successful business owners?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's probably more than three, but the top three that come to mind, and and uh as I um as I think of these, it's it's really um helpful for myself to think, okay, how do I rate on these things?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um the first one is developing and delegating, you know, developing um your employees and key people and and then empowering them to do more.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how you become a CEO and not just a business owner, because then you can you can do CEO stuff, you can do visionary stuff, you can move on to the next idea because someone else is running the business um in the way that you've helped them grow into.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: This this the second one is um culture.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: The most successful business owners I know have built a strong culture, and uh their communication ability comes into that because if no one uh you know if if you have a great culture but no one knows about it, it's it's not really gonna do you any good.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the the the best C the best ones I've seen have a vibrant culture that is well understood and well communicated.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally, uh the third one, you'll love this one.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: The best CEOs I know know their numbers.
• 24:08
  Scott: Oh, I do like that one, Scott.
• 24:10
  Scott: Thank you.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: They know them inside and out, and they know uh what the drivers are for their particular business that's revealed in the numbers.
• 24:21
  Scott: I I might I might take that as as a uh as a quote for my own sales here, Scott.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you know my absolutely.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't know your numbers, you need somebody like Scott Geller.
• 24:32
  Scott: Exactly.
• 24:33
  Scott: Perfect.
• 24:33
  Scott: Thank you, Buff.
• 24:34
  Scott: Thank you for that.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 24:37
  Scott: Uh I I also enjoy a good book or podcast.
• 24:40
  Scott: Well, do you have any recommendations for us?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my my favorite that I I listen to every single episode, and it's probably the only one I listen to every episode, is called the 21 Hats Podcast.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: The numeral 21 hats podcast, uh, by a guy named Lauren Feldman.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Lauren is a business journalist who's been at Inc., New York Times, Forbes magazine, um, and he he knows the territory of small business.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And most of his podcasts, he convenes a group of business owners from across the country for a conversation.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's almost like a round table, frankly, that's public because they they have a topic or a challenge.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's one person's particular challenge, sometimes it's more general.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the group discusses it and shares their experience and their wisdom on it.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's it's just it's fascinating.
• 25:34
  Scott: I've never come across one like that.
• 25:36
  Scott: Uh that's that that's that's a really good one, Scott.
• 25:39
  Scott: Thank you.
• 25:39
  Scott: Sure.
• 25:40
  Scott: Well, this has been great.
• 25:42
  Scott: Uh you you mentioned earlier this that people can reach out to you if they're looking for uh the the Virginia Council CEOs, or maybe they live somewhere else and they're looking for an organization near them.
• 25:54
  Scott: So please help us.
• 25:55
  Scott: Where can people find out more about you online?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm on LinkedIn.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um unlike uh unlike you, Scott, there's only one T in Scott for me.
• 26:05
  Scott: That's true, that's right.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Scott McRoberts.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so LinkedIn is is probably easy.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh also my email is is Scott with one t at vacos.org.
• 26:17
  Scott: Okay, that's a pretty good one as well.
• 26:19
  Scott: Thank you.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 26:21
  Scott: Well, perfect.
• 26:22
  Scott: Thanks, thanks for joining me today, Scott.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was fun to talk with you, Scott.
• 26:26
  Scott: All right, folks, that's it for today.
• 26:29
  Scott: If you like the show, please check out more uh uh more episodes at your favorite podcast location Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, and others.
• 26:40
  Scott: And feel free to rate the show.
• 26:42
  Scott: I'm Scott Keller, and I hope you join me next time for budget your business.