Latest / Serious Lady Business / From Cancer Diagnosis to Changing the Law: How One Woman Took on the Fertility Industry
Transcript
- Leslie Youngblood (00:01) Welcome back to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood, your host, feminist and founder of Youngblood MMC, a marketing media and content agency. And I am so excited to have Rijan Charn here with us today. Rijan is a fertility attorney and the founder of Sunray Fertility Law, one of the fastest growing law firms in the country, dedicated exclusively to reproductive law. Her passion for this work is deeply personal. As a cancer survivor, she faced the complexities of fertility preservation herself and witnessed the systemic barriers that often stand in the way of reproductive care. That experience continues to drive her commitment to making family building more accessible and legally secure for everyone. She represents intended parents, donors, surrogates, and fertility clinics across the U.S. and internationally, providing comprehensive legal support for egg, sperm, and embryo donation, surrogacy, agency agreements, and the handling of complex cross-border fertility matters. In addition to working with individuals, she frequently partners with fertility-focused companies, both established and emerging, to help navigate the evolving legal landscape, ensure compliance, strengthen operational frameworks, and support growth through strategic collaboration. Welcome, Rijan. I am just so blown away by you and so excited to dive into your story. Welcome to Serious Lady Business. Rijon Charne (01:28) So I'm excited to begin, Edsley. Leslie Youngblood (01:30) Yes, I mean, I want to really start at the beginning. You know, we're talking from cancer diagnosis to changing the law. When we spoke previously, you shared that you were diagnosed with cancer days after graduating from law school. So I would love to start at the beginning with you. What do you remember most vividly about those days after law school? Would everything shifted so quickly? Rijon Charne (01:41) you Yeah, you know, it was pretty mind-blowing. mean, it kind of started the week before, and then I graduated, and then my world came crumbling down the Monday after graduation. And so, you know, I mean, I don't know if I get it. I took my final exam on a Tuesday, like my final, final, final exam of law school, like ever. And I took that on a Tuesday, went into the like student doctor's office, right, to go and. Leslie Youngblood (02:05) Mm. Rijon Charne (02:21) do something completely unrelated and I just wasn't feeling well. yeah, then I went back in and she ended up finding a lump right over here and she said, what is that? I was like, I don't know. I'm sure it's just because I've been sick, I'm stressed, that's pulled joint muscle, all the things, you know? And she was like, no, so Wednesday I have to go into an EMT. And I went to go and see him and I'll never forget he like sits me down and he's like, well, this doesn't look good. It's either lymphoma or HIV. And I was like, I'm sorry, what are my options? Yeah, first of what is lymphoma and second of it's definitely not HIV. So what are we going at? Yeah. And he then had to explain to me what lymphoma was the different kinds of lymphoma and all of that sort of stuff. And he did a biopsy then and there in his office. And I just remember sitting there like, actually, he said to me, he's like, Leslie Youngblood (02:54) NOS- Thanks. Rijon Charne (03:15) I can do a biopsy now or we can wait." And I was like, I think we should wait. Like my brain was so disconnected from reality that I was like, I don't want to have any bruising from my photos for graduation. Like it was just so like, you know, like that was what my brain was thinking of. Like I'm graduating, I've got family coming in from South Africa. And now you're telling me you want to like take a biopsy. Like what are you talking about? Yeah. So he did. And then I remember that was Wednesday. like, I'll have the results to you by Friday. And I just remember looking at him and being like, listen. Leslie Youngblood (03:35) My gosh. Rijon Charne (03:44) I'm graduating from three years of what has been hell for me. I was like, there is nothing, not even cancer, whatever this is, that is going to stop me from celebrating with my friends and family. ⁓ You can call me Monday. And 10 a.m. on Monday, that was when my life changed in ways that I never saw coming. Leslie Youngblood (03:47) right Mm-hmm. Wow. Did he call you or did he invite you in to come and talk to you? I feel like that's like a traumatic phone call and like you should do more than just call somebody and be like, yeah, we confirmed you have this life altering disease right now, graduate. Rijon Charne (04:16) Yeah, yeah, well, you know, my parents have extended their flights because of course they were all supposed to go back on Sunday or whatever. And they extended their flights knowing only my parents knew we didn't tell anybody else we didn't want anybody else to worry or take away from celebration of that weekend or anything like that. And he called ⁓ and you know, it was a really interesting phone call, of course, because I'm like, what do I have? And he's like, well, you've got the good lymphoma, you've got Hodgkin's and I was like, Leslie Youngblood (04:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Rijon Charne (04:46) what does that mean? And he was like, you have a 94 % survival rate. I'm like, but it's cancer, right? He's like, yes. And the amount of times I heard, but you've got the good cancer. I'm like, it's cancer. I don't care if it's good cancer, if it's bad cancer. I'm lucky that my survival rate is so high, but I still have to go through all of the steps that anybody else going through cancer has to go through. And yes, I'm very lucky that the chance of me surviving on the other end is very high, but it doesn't minimize the fact that I have cancer. Leslie Youngblood (04:55) Yeah. Mm-hmm. right. Rijon Charne (05:14) I heard that so many times throughout my journey. But yeah, and then that afternoon he sent me to the oncologist ⁓ who refused, like I brought up fertility. He was like, why bother? It's too expensive and takes too much time. And he's like, Leslie Youngblood (05:15) right? When you shared, like I'm curious about, or like you were asking questions, because you're a young woman, right? And so you brought it up to them, they didn't even bring those things up to you as a female coming in for cancer treatment at all. mm. Rijon Charne (05:43) No, no, no, no. And that is so common in this space. It is so common. Oncologists, because they're not fertility doctors, they haven't really looked at how fertility technology has advanced. They still think it's like the old days where you had to wait and you had to get your period in cycle and you had to get it in sync. And then only then could you start the treatments. I'm like, Leslie Youngblood (05:49) Mmm! Right. Yeah. Rijon Charne (06:10) all this sort of stuff. That's not the case anymore, right? We like, I started immediately. Like, you know, the minute I got diagnosed and I was able to do fertility treatments and all this stuff, they start you immediately on like emergency protocols. And so, you know, and so the oncologist is like, well, it may take two months, like actually it doesn't, it takes literally three weeks. Like from beginning to end, it takes three weeks. Like there's no excuse for it. And so yeah, that was, that was interesting. He completely blew it off. And then. Leslie Youngblood (06:17) Mm-hmm. walk. Rijon Charne (06:39) know, like my parents took me to, well, a different oncologist. He didn't even bring it up. And then I ended up going to MD Anderson, who actually has fertility as a part of their treatment. Leslie Youngblood (06:43) Mmm. Wow, I think that's wonderful. mean, you would think, right, like you don't, there's so many women that maybe choose not to pursue fertility treatments or know like, I don't want to be a mother or, but you would think that they would at least have the conversation and going over those things with a new patient. Like here's the things we need to talk about before we talk about a treatment plan for you. And then we can create a course of action. know, what do you think about this? But not even any type of Rijon Charne (06:51) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (07:18) of conversation is mind blowing. But I also feel like it's so great that you advocated and continued to look for another doctor or other opinions because I can imagine getting a cancer diagnosis or any type of diagnosis where you just want to get started right away. Get this out of me. I got to get, you know, let's rock and roll. Let's go. But to be able to have the presence of mind to to call, calm yourself down or to take that moment. and say, no, I need to like look into, take my time to pursue this fertility treatments. I need to take that time to find a doctor that I feel gets me or that I feel comfortable with and confident in. That's so important. And so tell me a little bit about that. Was that something that you consciously did in, in we're like, no, screw this guy. Nope, not this one either. Like third time's the charm. Rijon Charne (08:10) Nope. Yeah, I mean, literally, I, you know, this first oncologist was in San Diego. And so my parents were like, first off, he was just, he was a horrible, horrible human being. And so we left him either way. But then my parents like, we're going back to Dallas. That is like, where we're going, that's where we're based, etc. And so we went to Dallas and there's an oncologist in Dallas, you know, lot of people go to him, pretty well known guy. Leslie Youngblood (08:22) Yes. Mm. Rijon Charne (08:38) and ⁓ we went there, he also didn't talk to me about fertility at all. ⁓ And this really comes down to advocating for yourself because he wanted to do, my cancer has a very strict chemo regimen. Like it's a very standard, strict chemo regimen and everybody knows what it is, like you don't veer off of it. ⁓ And he wanted to kind of do something slightly different and. Leslie Youngblood (08:59) Thank Rijon Charne (09:04) It was very interesting and I didn't know any different. And so I started speaking around and getting second opinions. I believe in gathering as much information and evidence as possible and then using that as an educational piece to figure out what may be best for you. Anyway, and then I'll never forget, I was going, he wanted me to have a picoline. And I don't know if you know what a picoline is, but it's like this needle, I guess, that goes in through a vein and into your heart. And that's how it kind of like puts the chemo into your bloodstream. Leslie Youngblood (09:22) Thank you. Mm-hmm. Rijon Charne (09:32) and there's different opinions on it, whatever it may be. ⁓ you know, when I got to have the procedure done, ⁓ my gut, and this is really so important and something that has guided me so much throughout my cancer journey, was the first time really where I started to listen to it because it was so loud that I couldn't ignore it and now all the way through to my career and every time I choose to go against it, was wrong. ⁓ But, you know. When I was about to have the procedure done, I remember my gut being like, you need to ask them how to like, keep this clean. Like this is a foreign object going into your body permanently. Like you need to ask them. And I remember my brain being like, no, that's a really uncomfortable conversation. I don't want to have that conversation. I like don't like blood. I don't like anything like that. I'm not really interested in it. And it was like, you need to ask. And it just felt so wrong not to ask. And when I did and I listened to that little voice in my head, Leslie Youngblood (10:10) you Rijon Charne (10:31) the whole procedure got canceled because I was supposed to have a care team come to my house every few days to actually clean out the instrument and all that. And if I didn't, I would have shot the clock. so it's, yeah, and so it's like that continual advocation for yourself, especially in the healthcare space as a woman, right? And so often we get told, crazy, it's anxiety, it's this, it's this, it's this. Actually, no. Leslie Youngblood (10:41) Thank I see. Yeah. Rijon Charne (10:57) It's not, we've looked after families, we look after children, we've had to look after ourselves, we've looked after parents, we've looked after employees, we've done all these things. It's like, actually, we're pretty capable human beings. And yeah, anyway, and so I left him too. And then I ended up going to MD Anderson. And know, Leslie, when you go to people who are just true experts in their space. Leslie Youngblood (11:25) Mm-hmm. Rijon Charne (11:26) That is when you can take a ⁓ breath of fresh air because all of a sudden you realize, whoa, hold on a second. These are experts who are just living in their world of expertise here to literally guide you at the highest level of what they can. And maybe we should just take a step back and listen. ⁓ And they were the ones who have fertility as part of the treatment. They were the ones that included it, spoke to you about it. Leslie Youngblood (11:33) Thank Mm-hmm. All right. one. Rijon Charne (11:53) You know, my fertility doctor was very honest with me. She told me straight up. She was like, you know, my reproductive endocrinologist, who I'm still very good friends with. She told me, she was like, your chemo has a 20 % chance of it affecting your fertility. So it's not like others where it's 100 % chance. However, if you relapse, it will be 100%. And just understanding that, just having that kind of knowledge of what that is. Leslie Youngblood (12:09) huh. Bye-bye. Thank Rijon Charne (12:20) was so powerful because then I got to make an educated decision on what kind of risk I wanted to take. Leslie Youngblood (12:26) Yeah, yeah, 100%. That can't even imagine. So you're going through this. And so you just graduated law school. But the law degree and the law that you were initially going to go into, it not fertility law, correct? Rijon Charne (12:41) You are never trained for fertility law at all. are. ⁓ There's no classes. I there was one class at my university. Even now, there's like barely any classes at the most like law schools. But ⁓ no, I was supposed to be a litigator in a big firm in court. That was where I was supposed to be. And then I went literally the complete opposite and only, you know, do transactional work now. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (12:44) And like. Hmm. Right Rijon Charne (13:07) no court, know, all of that sort of stuff. So yeah. Leslie Youngblood (13:11) when you were going through your journey, was it something that you were realizing as you were going through it? Like, this is so dumb. This is messed up. I'm... And were you getting those pings? Like, you you talked about listening to your gut. Like, was your gut also like blurbling like, Raja, this is the area that needs you. You know, tap, tap, tap, you know? Or were you like so focused on... Was it not even something that entered your mind until after you had gone throughout your treatment and were trying to, you know, planning the next phase of your life afterwards? Rijon Charne (13:42) Yeah, so, you know, it's a really interesting question. I'll never forget, like maybe two or three weeks after I'd been diagnosed and I finally figured out what the plan was gonna be, what we were gonna do. I was still adamant about taking the bar. I was like, I'm gonna study, drink chemo, I'm gonna take the bar. I'm not interested. I can't have that kind of gap on my resume. Like that was what was going through my head. And I remember my dad, you know, he took me for a walk and he was like, listen. We need to speak. And he was like, what's more important? Is it your health or is it taking the bar? You can take the bar twice a year for the rest of your life if you choose to do so. He was like, I think you should just put it on hold. Just focus on your health. And when you're done, you can go and take the bar and study it and it will be there for you. And I remember that conversation. It was so hard for me because my whole life was to be a lawyer. And that entire from three years old, Leslie, it was to be a lawyer. Leslie Youngblood (14:21) Yeah. Hmm, wow. Rijon Charne (14:41) And now I had it in the palm of my hands and I had to put it aside. And you you obviously can't see the big picture and how your life is going to unfold and turn out and all of that stuff. And I was like, oh my gosh, they're going to see the law firms are going to see a gap on my resume and they're going to think I failed the bar and you know, all this sort of stuff that goes through your mind. And it's like now it's so irrelevant. But back then it was so relevant. And so, you know, Leslie Youngblood (14:44) Bye. Rijon Charne (15:08) That was the first piece of my legal journey that I kind of had to put aside. And then when I froze my eggs, right, like when I met with M.D.S. and you have to understand this was 2016. So this was before egg freezing was cool. This was like if you froze your eggs, was something wrong with you. Like this was the black letter, you know, it's called a letter. it was, I mean, egg freezing, the cryopreservation method by the FDA was only only came out in 2016. So I just made the cut. So before then freezing eggs, not embryos. Leslie Youngblood (15:11) Mmm. Right. Rijon Charne (15:37) wasn't very successful at all. Yeah, yeah. So that's why you hear like, it's better to freeze embers today. That's not actually the case anymore, but it used to be the case. The success rates are so different. ⁓ And, you know, and so back then, mean, Livestrong, Chick Mission, you know, heartbeat program, like nobody knew about these things. And I just remember driving to MD Anderson and on Google, like my parents weren't even allowed to talk to me. And I was just like going down this rabbit hole of like, Leslie Youngblood (15:39) Wow Come on. Mmm. Rijon Charne (16:04) I need financial help to help cover my fertility. And I was able to find these incredible programs that MDN didn't know about yet or anything like that. And I just remember being like, this is ridiculous. Like, this is ridiculous that I have to be advocating for this. That my insurance tells me that I am not medically necessary to have my fertility covered. But when do I become medically necessary? When I'm literally not fertile? Like, when do you design a medically necessary? Leslie Youngblood (16:06) you Right. Right. Rijon Charne (16:34) And that's when I knew my brain started being like, hold on, hold on a second. This is unfair. This is wrong. This needs to change. And then, then it just spiraled out of control. ⁓ Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (16:37) I'm in. I feel it. I mean, thank goodness that beautiful brains are spiraling in that way. You know, I often find and we often see that solutions come when somebody experiences a problem and you experiencing a problem as a one person, then you pretty much can guarantee that there are other people experiencing that same problem too. As you were going through treatment and the wheels were turning, were you talking with other women about Rijon Charne (16:52) Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (17:15) like their experiences too and like, yeah, ⁓ okay, yeah, that's this, I'm, I'm spot on. It's not just me and there's something in the system we need to challenge and make a change on. Rijon Charne (17:25) 100%. I mean, I had joined a lymphoma group and I've been speaking to people in that group, men, everybody in that group. And there was like two people that I knew whose doctors had even brought up fertility and they did, but they didn't even know what to do with that. They were like, hey, I need to speak to you about fertility because your cancer, chemo may affect it, but I don't really know where to like send you to or who to send you to. So like you should just Google fertility doctor. Like I remember that very clearly. Leslie Youngblood (17:33) Mm-hmm. Rijon Charne (17:55) Then I had a girl who was kind of like my cancer buddy, if you call it that. She was always like a couple weeks ahead of me with the exact same chemo, exact same treatments, exact same cancer. And so she was kind of like my like, you know, listening ear. And her doctor didn't talk to her about freezing her eggs at all. It didn't come up. It wasn't a discussion. And she was so devastated by that. And it took her very long time to go pregnant. you know, it was, was devastating for her. And she was always like, I wish my doctor had just told me, I wish it had just been brought up. And Leslie Youngblood (18:03) Yeah. Wow. Rijon Charne (18:24) ⁓ You know, so yeah, it was common. And it's still common today. I mean, you would think that, you know, nearly 10 years later, it would be different. It's slightly different, but it's still the same, which is crazy to me. Leslie Youngblood (18:34) Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I can't even imagine. So walk us through, you got better. You went through your treatment. ⁓ And then how long afterwards did you start to put pen to paper and really go and start taking action? And then you changed Texas law. Tell us a little about that journey. Rijon Charne (18:58) Yeah, so ⁓ I came out of my egg freeze, high as a kite from the anesthesia. You know, I was like on the bed waiting to be ⁓ dismissed, I guess, or what's the word, let's see. ⁓ Thank you, discharged, not dismissed, waiting to be discharged. And I'm sitting there crying, bawling my eyes out. Like I don't cry that much. And I was like in hysterics. And I remember turning to my doctor, my fertility doctor. Leslie Youngblood (19:03) me. Hmm. It's charged. Rijon Charne (19:28) Dr. Terry wooded at MD innocent and I remember saying to her like I'm gonna change this this is ridiculous I'm gonna change this and my mom was saying she's like you need to calm down and the doctors like you need to come down like no, no, it's So that's like I mean it was it was done it was like destined to be ⁓ And then so I finished I put everything aside and then I finished treatment and everything on Thanksgiving actually so a couple months later Leslie Youngblood (19:43) Wow. Yeah. That's normal. Rijon Charne (19:56) And then I went off on vacation, rejuvenated myself, and then I came back and studied for the bar in January and took the law in February. And from the minute I took that bar, I was like, okay, this is what I want to do. So I, it was California, so I called every fertility attorney that I knew, are you hiring? Are you hiring? Are you hiring? And I didn't understand it back then. Now I understand it, but. Leslie Youngblood (20:14) Yeah. Rijon Charne (20:20) We don't exactly have big firms in the States, right? You don't have a Kirkland and Ellis or anything like that in the States. They're all usually sort of practitioners. And at the time when I was looking, there was like two firms that were like large enough to hire and they weren't hiring. And I was devastated. I was like, And I landed up applying to this one firm and I just, didn't have a position and I called and I called and I called and I called and I called like every month. He knew me. He knew every month phone call was coming. Leslie Youngblood (20:25) heat. one. Yeah. Rijon Charne (20:49) and ⁓ nothing happened for a while. And then I landed up at that point being like, okay, I still need to do something. And so that's when I ended up joining the Alliance for Fertility Preservation. My fertility doctor had introduced me to Joyce Rainake, who is the founder of the Alliance for Fertility Preservation. And I was like, we need to change the law in Texas. Like, this is ridiculous. This is where I was based. And that's kind of how that whole journey kicked off. Leslie Youngblood (20:55) Mm-hmm. Hmm. ⁓ Was there a moment where you felt like this isn't going to work or this is a big mountain? How did you push through that? You found the job, which I love that, the tenacity to keep calling, keep calling, keep driving, keep finding. Because I think we talk about this a lot is because there was at the end of the day, it was Rijon Charne (21:21) Thank Leslie Youngblood (21:36) a mission, like a true core inside of you that was calling you and driving you to do this. It wasn't like the pursuit of a paycheck, obviously, right? Like something truly with inside of you that was calling you to do that and that persistence. But was there ever a time where you doubted that, ⁓ my gosh, maybe this isn't what I should do or how am I ever going to accomplish this at Allrejawn? Rijon Charne (21:44) No. Yeah, mean, I... Look, we tried it three times in Texas. It took three times to do it. The first time was outright rejected. The second time, it made it onto the ballot to be heard. And then a bunch of political things happened during that time. And Texas being Texas decided... Leslie Youngblood (22:08) Ready? Hmm. Rijon Charne (22:31) They weren't going to pass certain ballots that, you know, involved around certain topics. And so it got chopped from the chopping board. ⁓ And that was the year that I was there. And so like we advocated in front of the House. We did it all. You know, I gave a speech and a testimony to all the members to say like, this is why this is so necessary. We pulled numbers. We showed them from us. Leslie Youngblood (22:37) Good. Thank Rijon Charne (22:58) financial perspective, how it really wouldn't affect the insurance companies, right? So, and just with that application, like the whole, ⁓ the legislation that we were trying to pass was to say that insurance companies shall be required to cover fertility preservation for cancer patients, right? Anybody going through a treatment is going to affect their fertility. ⁓ And so when you actually look at the amount of people that are affected Leslie Youngblood (23:17) Thank you. Rijon Charne (23:26) And in Texas, that's what we had to look at. But the amount of people that are affected who want more children are at a children bearing age, right? You know, et cetera. It's actually not that much. Like that's the crazy part. It's really not. You know, of course, the insurance companies decided to fight it and they do. they, you know, they send in, they send in the exact person that you don't want to be on the other side, a really attractive female, arguing why insurance companies. Leslie Youngblood (23:29) with. Rijon Charne (23:53) should not be covering fertility preservation. And I'm like, how much should they pay you to sell your soul? Right? Like, how much should they pay you to sell your soul? ⁓ You know, she was a 30 year old, 30 something year old, like really attractive, like woman. And I was like, how can you be advocating for something that, you know, and she wasn't married. And I was like, you are the true like end person of this. You're just lucky you don't have cancer, you know? And I just remember being like, wow. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (23:55) you Bye! Sure Yeah body. Hmm. Rijon Charne (24:22) And so yeah, and so we advocated everything and then I kicked the ball and it was devastating. I was there with my fertility doctor exactly five years after the day I finished my egg retrieval, literally and I looked around like, I told you so. We just had a big laugh about it and then the next year it landed up. It landed up getting paused, but yeah. Leslie Youngblood (24:29) Amen. Amen. Amen. you Gotcha. What was the health insurance's like counterclaim? Like why they shouldn't pay for that? Because I feel like it, you know, from my perspective is, especially in the news lately, it seems that people want women to have more babies in this country. So wouldn't you think that to help women who want to have more babies and they're sick, why wouldn't this be a way that we would help them to do that? Rijon Charne (25:01) huh. Well, what is the insurance company's sole goal always? What is it, Leslie? That's it. And that's the story that it comes down to. ⁓ The insurance company is not arguing anything politically, right? They're not arguing anything politically from an abortion standpoint or is an embryo a fetus or anything. That's not what they're arguing. They're arguing it's gonna cost us too much money. That is their argument. Leslie Youngblood (25:21) to make Thank Why? Yeah. Rijon Charne (25:38) And that's why when we counter argued and they like, actually, when we look at this, like it's so minimal that like, it's really not even going to touch your end budget. Um, you know, it's kind of a hard argument to, make. Um, you know, and, and they're like, well, it's not for us to cover it because it's not necessarily a medical necessity as they like to claim. And it's like, but then when do you differentiate what is a medical necessity and what's not. And like, you know, how do you do that? Leslie Youngblood (25:47) Hmm. No, no, no. ⁓ with Martin. Rijon Charne (26:05) And so that was really their arguments. mean, it wasn't very good, but you know, all you have to claim is money. And you know, when you've got, when you're, you know, lobbying and you're paying members, you know, to lobby for you, right? Money talks, unfortunately. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (26:09) Right. Right? Yeah, that is true. So you guys, you did. It was finally passed in Texas. What happened next? Rijon Charne (26:29) Yeah, so it got passed, the bill got passed and it got implemented. And now it's active. And it's really interesting because a lot of people don't know that it's active. So like, I just had a client and she was like, oh, like I just froze my eggs prior to undergoing chemo and I had to pay. And I'm like, no, but like you shouldn't. Like, you know, it got implemented in January of 2024. I'm like, you should talk to your... Leslie Youngblood (26:39) Really? Hmm. insurance. Rijon Charne (26:58) insurance company and make sure that they cover it because they should be covering it, you know, and then there's possibly this like, well, you don't tell them they're not gonna say, here you go, we're gonna cover it for you. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (27:02) Yeah. that. Right, yeah like it passed we have to tell anybody or make sure let's not educate anybody that this is available so then we still can save those dollar bills. I mean it is feels like the momentary feeling of joy like we did it and it's like well it's kind of like the work is still just getting started because like the work of educating patients and doctors is you know so much Rijon Charne (27:15) Exactly. Leslie Youngblood (27:33) so much in general to be able to do that. How are you guys, how are you working to do that? Rijon Charne (27:34) It is. It is. Well, I it comes down to education, right? Like anybody who will listen to me, I'm like, please, if somebody comes into your office with cancer, take their insurance, like awesome to cover their insurance, like make it known to the insurance company that you are doing this for cancer patients. Like it has to activate with the term cancer because otherwise the insurance company thinks you're just coming in there for regular fertility preservation or egg freezing or embryo creation. And they're like, no, well, we don't cover IVF. We don't cover. Leslie Youngblood (27:42) Yeah. Yes. one Hmm Yeah. you Yeah. Rijon Charne (28:07) you know, fertility creation and stuff like that. So denied. It's like, no, you have to tell them that it's cancer. And then they'll, you know, they're required to do it. And if they get denied, like come to me and we'll fight it for you, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (28:13) Yeah Right? Yeah, baby. You'll get it. What advice, Rajan, because I mean that journey that you went through with policy and, you know, politics in general, what advice would you give to somebody who wants to start changing a policy but doesn't have any idea where to begin, whether it's fertility or it's any other policy that they feel, whether they've experienced a problem or they see a problem, what would you say to that person? Rijon Charne (28:48) Yeah, join an organization that has done it before ⁓ because they are experts in their state. If you surround yourself with experts, you will learn so much. is an expert in working in states to change legislative law around cancer, fertility preservation, and coverage. That is her expertise. And the amount that I learned from Joyce is so huge. Leslie Youngblood (28:52) No. Yeah. Thank you. Rijon Charne (29:15) So somebody that day reached out to me and they're like, I really want to get in. She's also at Camps of Surviving. She's like, I really want to get in. I really want to be able to make change. Where do I begin? And my first response to her was, involve yourself in Resolve. Resolve does all of that. And you can find what you want to do. Do you want to do advocacy? Do you want to do legislative changes? Do you not want to do that? Do you want to support? What do you want to do to make a change? And when you associate yourself with a really well-respected organization, then it's like, OK. And you can start figuring out what to Leslie Youngblood (29:27) Mmm. ⁓ Rijon Charne (29:43) pieces work for you and what don't. Because to do it by yourself is, I mean, it's really hard, right? And if you don't have any expertise or anything like that, like, you know, it's really tough to do. Leslie Youngblood (29:45) Mm-hmm. more. Yeah, no, I think that's so wonderful, like what you shared just now, because you may think, oh, it has to be me that goes in there and makes the change, but that's not necessarily true. You could get involved and still be a part of the change. Like you said, through advocacy, through volunteering your time, through donating $10 every month to something that you believe in. There's so many different ways to make a change. And like you said, it takes every single one of those pieces to drive a mission forward. And I think we can forget Rijon Charne (30:11) Exactly. Exactly. Leslie Youngblood (30:25) One, we may feel so overwhelmed or we may just be like, oh, I don't have the time or whatever, right? Like we know all the things that we may feel, but it can be something very small and it still matters. It's that like important ripple that is involved and there are really wonderful organizations out there right now that can help. So I would love to know, you I want to go back to something too where it was like elective, right? Like why do you think women's reproductive health is still treated as optional ⁓ or elective care by so many systems, Rijan? Rijon Charne (31:00) You know. noise torn on this response because I always want to say that we've allowed it to be in one way, but then we're putting blame on the woman and that's not fair. We've allowed it to be because society up until recently, right, hasn't wanted to listen to us about why this needs to change or what we want it to change. And as a result, we, a lot of the time, because we do so much else, Leslie Youngblood (31:08) Right. Mmm. Rijon Charne (31:35) don't have the energy to fight as to why it shouldn't be that way. And so there's a part of me that believes that. And now we're seeing a shift because all of a sudden, women are saying, hold on one second, we're done with this. You're gonna now listen to us. We know what our bodies are. We know what we need. We know what we want. And if you don't wanna help us, we'll go somewhere else that can. I... Leslie Youngblood (31:37) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rijon Charne (32:02) think it's because we have seen, which I think is so beautiful, this like, which is what women do, this huge support cloud, like coming up and now giving women this voice to be like, hey, talk about it. Like bring it up, advocate for yourself because if you don't, nobody else is. And now all of sudden we're starting to see changes and that's really exciting. And that gives you more power to be like, wait, it's working, it's working. You know, we got to do more. Leslie Youngblood (32:08) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Rijon Charne (32:29) So I think that's number one. then number two, honestly, when you just look at studies and you look at science and you look at all that, they've studied men. Everything has always been about studying men. And you know, I think a huge part of that have to do, if you think back to the days, like, right, women didn't have a voice for themselves. They weren't allowed to do anything about their husbands. We weren't allowed to property. We weren't allowed to, you know, enter studies. We weren't allowed to do anything. So we were really hard to study, right? And so I think it's a very... Leslie Youngblood (32:36) I love you, brother. with me. Thank you. Rijon Charne (32:59) intricate combination of things. Leslie Youngblood (33:00) Sure. Isn't that crazy? could there be anything more fascinating than a human being growing another human being inside of them? Like men's bodies are so boring. Rijon Charne (33:12) They're so boring. They're so boring. Yeah. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (33:13) No, thousands of years were like, let's really dive in because this is wild. But no, they made it seem like we're demons for bleeding or don't talk about it, you're dirty for bleeding. And it's like, oh my God, are you kidding me right now? It's like mind blowing. Like what's magical? Like truly, like, are you kidding me right now that this these egg and sperm can come together and then it, you know, then humans and animals like it is fascinating. And so I just Rijon Charne (33:23) Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (33:43) It just kills me to think about that. You're so right. It's really just been men that have been studied in all the things, whether it's drug testing and all the things. so it is really encouraging and relieving to see that we are, I do believe and agree that it's finally shifting. You know, we've talked about menopause on here and paramenopause and even think about with postpartum depression. All of those things when I was a young girl hadn't, not even in the conversation women hit those things, right? Or period talk, right? Like I feel like the period talk was something that was just coming up when I was a teenager and you could talk about it in your first period in menstruation, right? And it wasn't made to be like, ⁓ you know, ⁓ Rijon Charne (34:14) No. with you. and talk Leslie Youngblood (34:30) don't talk about it Rijon Charne (34:30) about it. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (34:31) or I don't know right and so and you it makes you feel horrible right makes you feel like there is something wrong with you when it's just the opposite and so with you know advocating for your fertility rights and being able to be more proactive about your health in all of the ways now it just really is so ⁓ finally finally women right like and all these pieces are part of that Rijon Charne (34:41) Yes. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (34:56) that wave and that push to better advocacy for women's health, reproductive in general and otherwise. So it's beautiful. Rijon Charne (35:03) Absolutely, 100%. Sometimes I think that they were scared to study us because we are so complicated. And I think that they were like, we don't even know where to begin. Women are so complicated from the insides. Like you said, we menstruate, we can grow a child, we can do all these things. And it's like, Leslie Youngblood (35:07) I don't Us! You're an antler! MAH Rijon Charne (35:21) But what are we supposed to do with that? Men are just like, simple from that aspect of things, right? They have internal organs, everybody knows. Their sexual reproductive organs are very simple. You can't really fail when you're studying a man. But when you're studying a woman, you will fail because to try and figure it out is very difficult. And so I think it takes a lot of grit and I think some people would just not. My favorite, and I don't know if you've heard this, I leave it. Leslie Youngblood (35:30) Mm-hmm. Straight forward. No. No. Right. Rijon Charne (35:50) You know, they used to say, some people still try and say it, and of course it doesn't work very well anymore, but they used to say, women are small men. And I'm like, really? Yeah. Like, what part of us is a small man? Like, I'm just very curious. Is it an arm, a finger? Like, what is it? Leslie Youngblood (35:59) can hear that. It's like, no! Are you? Right? Who said that? Yeah. Like who was like, yeah, you're right, they're just tinier men. Like yes, that makes so much sense. like, I'm sorry, do have eyeballs? Rijon Charne (36:11) just yeah yeah small men with boobs and different reproductive organs and we're just small men that's correct yeah Leslie Youngblood (36:21) It's like we laugh now, but it's like a serious thing that has caused so much detriment over thousands of years. And so to finally, finally have that light that we're walking into and embracing it for women everywhere is encouraging. I know we still have such a long way to go and I'm sure you feel that way too, right? But at least it feels like something is... Rijon Charne (36:43) yeah. Leslie Youngblood (36:49) catching and that's really a wonderful sight. ⁓ Rijan, what would you say to anybody listening who's going through something painful right now and feels powerless? Rijon Charne (36:52) Don't they? That's a great question. You know, I think that when somebody feels powerless and when you're going through really hard times, you think that that's kind of how your world is going to stay. Because it's a really low point, right, in your life and you're like, I don't see a way out. How is my life gonna change? What's gonna happen, right? I felt that. I did many interviews at law firms who rejected me because I had a gap on my. Leslie Youngblood (37:26) Mmm. Rijon Charne (37:41) resume, one rejected me off to cancer because I was a liability to them, right? And I like, I've been there, you when you grow a firm as well, like you hit points, people try and bring you down, like, you know, there are so many different ways and times where you become powerless. But my grandmother has always said that life goes in cycles, and you will go low. Leslie Youngblood (37:45) ⁓ no. Rijon Charne (38:09) and then just give it some time and you may have to sit there and maybe that low point, you'll learn something in that low point. Why is it happening? What happened? What is it about this reason as to why I'm here? And then as life does, life goes your cycles and the cycle goes up. And then you're gonna be at the top of your game and you're like, whoa, look at all of this, look at all this. And then it's gonna go down. And it's part of a growth cycle that pushes you into places that make you feel uncomfortable. Leslie Youngblood (38:14) Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Rijon Charne (38:38) or powerless or depressed or whatever it may be. learning how to reinvest in yourself during those times as hard as it may be is the way I have always been able to get out of it. Like, okay, this is really hard. Why is it so hard? Why is it so difficult? What can I learn from this? And how can I make myself feel better in whatever way, shape that may be for you, right? Leslie Youngblood (38:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No. Rijon Charne (39:06) ⁓ But no, it's a cycle. I always have to remember it's a cycle. It's a cycle. It's a cycle. It will come up. It will be okay. Pound through this. Learn from it. And then use it. And that's kind of what I do for myself. And I try and tell my friends and people who go through tough times. Leslie Youngblood (39:09) Yeah. More... Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's wonderful advice. I think that's fantastic and agree. It's hard to keep that in mind. The hardest, the hardest, the hardest. But it really is true and only when you're outside of it can you see, but you do just have to keep clawing, like, you know, keep clawing because you'll get on that up again. So that's. Rijon Charne (39:28) So hard. So hard. Yep. Yep. just. You will, and it just takes some time. it will, and sometimes it's two weeks, and sometimes it's a few months, and sometimes it's, whatever. ⁓ Yeah, but it's the cycle of life, and it just, it can't stay down forever. So, you know, you have people who lose children, and lose spouses, and lose siblings. Leslie Youngblood (39:52) I'm I'm here. I'm here. Now. Rijon Charne (40:11) lose parents and all this stuff and you'll see them come back up. They have taken a long period of time and I don't think they're ever fully recovered when you go through a death depending on who it is, right? But you see them come back up, you see them start to live again and you're like, wow, how did they do that? And it's like, they have to, there's a cycle in some way, or form. And yeah. Leslie Youngblood (40:19) Thank you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. You've turned your pain in your low into real change. What's next on your advocacy or impact journey, Rijani? Rijon Charne (40:38) you Yeah, I would say that my next big piece of where I would like to go and see changes and make changes is really within the women's space now. It's just starting, it's just beginning, women are starting to advocate for themselves. we are, and I've always said this, we're kind of where oncology was 30 years ago, right? Leslie Youngblood (41:04) ⁓ no. Rijon Charne (41:05) in the fertility and reproduction and women's health care space. Like we are, yeah. Cause all of a sudden now we're starting, mean, do you know Leslie that they only first tested tampons with real blood in August of 2024, I believe. Yeah, they've been using saline before. Leslie Youngblood (41:17) Stop it! Rijon Charne (41:23) they've been using, which is now makes sense why soundbox don't really work that great, right? ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. University of 2020. Leslie Youngblood (41:28) Stop it. In 2024, with real blood, not just menstrual blood, but just any type of blood. Rijon Charne (41:37) Yeah, was 2023, 2024. was one of the, but University of Oregon was the first place to study how tampons interact with real menstrual blood. Yeah. So that's how backwards we are. Right. I mean, even tampon companies didn't do testing on bare end products. ⁓ Yeah, I know. So, you know, Leslie Youngblood (41:47) I want one. Fine blown. Rijon Charne (42:00) So we're here, which means we have like, there to go. And it's very cool to start to begin to understand what that's going to look like. And I think one of the big things we're going to see, which as a lawyer, I am excited about, I think there are going to be a ton of moral and ethical debates that are going to be arising from this because with reproduction, there is, there just is, you cannot avoid that, right? And Leslie Youngblood (42:03) Hmm. Well... No. Mm-hmm. Rijon Charne (42:28) How is that going to look? I mean, Japan just came out saying that they have the first standalone womb, so you can grow babies in an external womb. And it's like, wow, that's really cool. And immediately, my brain's like, ⁓ that's weird. Like, no, that's not good. And then the other side of my brain's like, hold on one second. That's amazing. You get to control the environment. You get to allow people who can't have babies to maybe have babies. Leslie Youngblood (42:36) Wow. mean... Yeah... I'll be right Rijon Charne (42:53) Right? Like how's that going to affect the surrogates of world? Like there are all these moral and ethical debates that go on in my head. And I think that we're going to see a lot more of this as we grow. And with that is going to come change laws, changes legislation. You know, when you look at any weird industry like drones, marijuana, all that stuff, right? Laws have to start evolving. AI is next on the agenda. And so, yeah, I think that that's kind of where it's going and where I'm excited to be a part of. Leslie Youngblood (43:11) Right. Right. Yeah! Oof. Yeah, yeah, I think it really is, you know, an interesting time for science and technology. You know, ever since, you know, the creation of electricity, right? And ⁓ why I want to say like factories, but that's not the word like an industry, right? It's like it's this new frontier of which we've never seen before quantum computing. ⁓ I mean, just there's so much right now happening and it is exciting. It's scary. It's energizing. It's, you know, it's like, like not like soul searching, like existential, right? Like in a lot of different ways, but what, what, what a time to be alive. Rijon Charne (44:06) It is. mean, it really, really is. I read something the other day, which is also very scary, but also really exciting. ⁓ The change in science and technology, when you think back to when life first came, and then cars and cell phones and all of that stuff, it was such huge amounts of time between them, massive amounts of time. And they're saying that now with AI, Leslie Youngblood (44:28) with her. Rijon Charne (44:33) the speed that we're going to see technology grow and explore and expand is going to be at the speed of light. I mean, it's going to be so quick and so fast moving, which is really exciting, but also frightening, right? Because it's like, well, where is this going and what's going to happen? that's, yeah, I mean, we're very lucky to be alive during this. I mean, it's revolutionary. Leslie Youngblood (44:37) Thank you. What? No. No, no. Yeah, yeah. well, I think there was something too that I read. was like horses were our primary mode of transportation for thousands of years, right? And then like in a matter of like a hundred, we're sending rockets into space. People are just taking space flights as like like fun little leisurely like thing, right? And it's like, okay. And that was just that 100 year period, imagine then with everything that's been developed in that hundred years with how it's going to drive us forward. So. Rijon Charne (45:03) We'll see. No. Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (45:30) I mean, can choose, you know, like there's obviously two sides to everything, right? There's the negative and the positive, but the fact of the matter is the sun will rise, the sun will set and humans will keep evolving some way somehow. And with everything that you're doing too, when it comes to reproductive health and fertility rights and, know, helping others, it has to feel really special and like, obviously more important than ever to be a part of it right now. Rijon Charne (45:37) Absolutely. Yep. Leslie Youngblood (45:59) for those who need you. So, I hope you're all. Rijon Charne (46:01) Yeah, it really does. I'm always say I am beyond, beyond fortunate to be able to get to mix my legal expertise right alongside being a psychologist for my clients who are going through the toughest time of their lives, right? Talk about learning to go down the cycle and having to pull yourself up through the cycle. Like it is so emotionally jarring for them. And so many of them never thought they would be here, right? Working with a donor or working with a surrogate. And so Leslie Youngblood (46:12) Meh. Thank Thank you. Rijon Charne (46:30) you know when they come to me they're like god this is real now right like it's really real like the lawyer has now gotten involved you know and it's ⁓ yeah it's a it's a very scary time for them but it's i i really i consider myself so blessed and then you get baby photos and you get beautiful emails and you get all that stuff and it's just like how lucky are we Leslie Youngblood (46:34) ⁓ Yay! Yeah, that's amazing. love that. Well, one of my last question here, Rijan, before we wrap up, finish the sentence, when women fight for their own health care rights, they. Rijon Charne (47:02) set a new standard for how women should be seen, and cared for. Leslie Youngblood (47:07) ⁓ I love that. I feel like that's a perfection. Thank you so much. Regina, please share where our listeners can find you and all those good things before we end today. Rijon Charne (47:13) You're so welcome. Absolutely. Yeah, so I run Senary Fertility Law. It's a law firm that specializes in reproduction of women's health. And so you can find me at senaryfertility.com or my name, Rajan, R-I-J-O-N. I'm not that hard to find with a name like that. And so yeah, my website will give you all the information that you need to get. Leslie Youngblood (47:43) Perfect. And we'll also drop the information in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today, Regina. It was a pleasure. You are phenomenal. ⁓ We are so honored to have the conversation. We had to share your journey with our listeners and ⁓ keep doing the amazing work that you're doing. We need your thank you. Of course. Thank you. Cheers. Rijon Charne (48:02) Thanks, Leslie, at a blast. I really did. And thanks for letting me share my story. Bye.