Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / The Working Artist - Lessons in art and money with Crista Cloutier
Transcript
- Marci Grossman (00:16) Hello, I am MoneyMarci. Welcome. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest, Crista Cloutier. Crista knows what it feels like to see the word BANKRUPT written across her own forehead. After a career placing art in MoMA, (Museum of Modern Art in New York City), and the Metropolitan Museum, she lost everything in 2011. She rebuilt by doing the one thing she'd never considered, teaching. That decision became The Working Artist, a global coaching platform that has helped creatives in over 80 countries build sustainable careers. Today, Crista is a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a gold medal honoree of the French Academy, and her professional archives live at the Smithsonian. She works from the south of France. Her forthcoming book is titled, "The Artist's Flight Manual, From Feather to the Wings of Success". Welcome, Crista. Crista Cloutier (01:20) Thank you for having me, Marci. Or should I call you MoneyMarci? Marci Grossman (01:22) Well, I'm so... Marci's fine. Marci's fine. So how did you get here from New York, as an artist and placing the art, to coaching in France? Crista Cloutier (01:40) I actually wasn't living in New York. I was living in Phoenix, Arizona, and I was an art dealer, but I was a wholesale dealer. So I was actually doing everything artists do. I was representing artists and selling their work to galleries and to museums all around the country. And I did that for about 10 years, and I just loved it. And then I had my midlife correction, which looked like, it didn't look like a correction, it looked like a crisis. Someone came into my office and he was complaining about his job and saying, don't you just wish like you could just sell everything you own and move to the south of France. And I thought, yeah, that's what I wanna do. And I did it. I sold everything I owned and I moved to the south of France, lived there for a year, ended up meeting a guy from England and moved to England and started over. And I got a job in a gallery in London. It was the biggest gallery in the world, I think, at the time. They had a helicopter landing pad on the roof and we had chauffeurs and French chefs and all of that. And they gave me this really big contract with lots of zeros. And it was great because I had left the United States in 2008. So I had never really been able to sell my house, for example, because the market was crashing. Like all of that was crashing behind me as I left. And I was never really able to find my footing. So I'd been kind of living on fumes for a few years. So this contract with this gallery was a lifesaver. But after several months, I realized that I was being paid in promises and the gallery went bankrupt. And I realized that I had to declare bankruptcy too. Which was at the time what felt like the lowest point of my life. But in retrospect, when you hit bottom, you bounce, right? And I decided to start teaching artists what I knew about selling art. And now I'm doing what I'm doing and I live back in the south of France. Marci Grossman (03:47) So I have to take a moment because you moved to England to get a French chef. Crista Cloutier (03:54) You've tried English food, right Marci? Marci Grossman (03:59) Well, I like fish and chips. I'm not sure what else there is. You're also an artist, right? Crista Cloutier (04:07) I am an artist too, yeah. And that was part of why I left the art business was because the business was all consuming. And you know, when you're an art dealer and when you represent all those people and I was running a 5,000 foot studio, so I had overhead and employees and I didn't have time to make my art anymore. My own creativity took a backseat and that's what was missing. You talk to people a lot about money. So I'll tell you the truth. What was happening with me is I was making really good money, but I was feeling like every time I went through my front door, I was wondering if there was a secret camera there that could see that I was always bringing in shopping bags full of stuff. I couldn't stop buying stuff. And it was because there was something empty inside of me. So I was buying art. I was buying antiques. I was buying clothes. I had a three bedroom house with a storage shed and a garage and an attic that was full of stuff. Stuff adds up to debt when you're just buying it like that in a really mindless way. And that's what I'd been doing. And when I had this epiphany of let's move to the south of France. I was like, well, there's no way I've got all this debt. And then I looked around and it's like, well, why don't you get rid of your stuff? That was a critical moment too, because we identify with our stuff. You know, I couldn't possibly leave my stuff, you know, this is, this is a collection of teacups. But you have to travel light in life if you want to have freedom to move around like that. So I sold my stuff. A lot of it I ended up giving away in the end. But I learned a lot about stuff and buying stuff. And it took a while to realize that was an addiction too. But once I calmed that down, I was fine. But then what happened with the gallery in London, I couldn't control. Marci Grossman (06:07) Right, because that wasn't your gallery. Crista Cloutier (06:10) That wasn't my gallery, but I sure saw that word bankrupt. Every time I looked in the mirror, I saw it written across my forehead and I really believed that's who I was. I really thought that would define me for the rest of my life. And luckily I had a friend who said, no, it's not there. I don't see it. He was rubbing my forehead and he's like, you're still Crista. And that like opened my eyes. I was self-identifying with. my so-called failure. Marci Grossman (06:42) Yeah, that's a problem for everybody when you define yourself whether it's the positive, the negative, somewhere in between, something that only you see as being a part of anything and then that becomes your stumbling block because you feel it's part of who you are and that gets in the way of other opportunities. Crista Cloutier (07:02) Absolutely. And I see artists do this all the time, because I'm an artist coach now. And I ask them a lot of times, like, what do you want? Or, you know, how much money do you need to make? Because we work on the financial stuff. And they'll say, $1 million a year. I'd be like, wow, that's a lot of money. Why a million? And they say, because that means I'm good. And I say, no, it doesn't. You know, the talent does not equal money. It means you're busy and it means you're really good at marketing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to have the freedom and the creative expression that you're looking for. There's a difference there. Money doesn't define talent, just like it doesn't define you. Marci Grossman (07:45) Right. I assume your background, your experience, your education was art related, but at some point in time it sounds like it took a turn to more of the financial related. If you're coaching them on art, I assume it's more than just, that probably would get this dollar amount in a market or this is how to negotiate a sale. Where did your financial background come from? Crista Cloutier (07:53) Mm-hmm. Faking it until I made it. When I was in the art business I had to price the art I was selling and so I guess I did it instinctively. Looking at the market. Trying to do comps comparisons. This artist has worked at this level. These are other artists who make this kind of art who work in this market who work at this level. This is what they're charging and that's really what art appraisal is. I did end up getting certified from the American Art Appraisal Society as an appraiser. So I am pretty good at appraising art. But where I learned about money was I went to the school of hard knocks. I think I got a doctorate. Marci Grossman (09:00) with bankrupt written upon your forehead, it definitely would have been a pretty hard knock. Crista Cloutier (09:03) Yeah. Yeah, it was. And it knocked me down so far, it's not like you just jump up. It's like, no, I'm going to teach. Because you have layers of beliefs about money and fears about money. I did this exercise and I do it with my clients now too, where I have them go into a meditative state and they're in an empty room sitting in a chair and across from them is an empty chair and money walks in the room and sits down and I ask them, what does money say to you? And it's shocking because when I did that exercise, I realized money was really mean to me. You know, money told me that I wasn't worthy. Money told me I didn't do enough, even though I was working all the time. Then I realized that money wasn't speaking with my voice. Money was speaking with voices I'd heard in the past, other people's voices, or voices I'd inherited through my family. And when I work with my clients, they'll tell me I want a million dollars. And when we sit down with money, they're like, no, I hate money. It's like, well, you can't hate money and make money at the same time. You have to make peace in your relationship with money. And a big part of that is learning about money, learning to stop hating it and respecting it and learning how to manage it and learn what it is. Marci Grossman (10:30) Yeah, definitely... creatives have always had, and I'm using this as a generic sense and I know it's not true of all creatives or all different types of creatives, but that financial relationship, they have a reputation, which is true or not depending on the individual, their background, of either not understanding or not being interested Crista Cloutier (10:38) Yeah. Marci Grossman (10:53) in the finances. It's okay I'm a starving artist and if I'm good I must be starving because it shows how much I've given myself. Right, you have to suffer for your art, if you don't suffer are you really an artist? I don't think that's true and we all know of artists of varying types that are successful in their art. Crista Cloutier (11:02) suffered, yeah. Marci Grossman (11:15) as well as Van Gogh died penniless and now his art is the most expensive and the most valued , or one of I should say, in the world. What is it that can help artists develop that better relationship with money, with feeling that they can take control, that they can have art and control of their finances, that it's not depleting their art to pay attention to their money. Crista Cloutier (11:46) Yeah, that's a good question. First of all, divorce yourself from that myth, because that's an old, tired myth. You don't need to be starving, and you don't need to cut off your ear either to succeed. Those are not in the job description. And also understand that it's okay if money is not the carrot dangling on the stick that keeps you moving forward. It's not for most artists. Most artists aren't motivated by money. We're motivated by this desire for freedom and expression, and that's okay. But if you want to have that in a way that makes you money, doing the work to learn about your relationship with money and what it really is and what you really believe about money and where those voices come from, what you've been told. And then also learning about your money. I set aside two days a week to sit down and look at my money or learn something about money or watch a video about money. And when I started after my bankruptcy, I realized I was terrified. I was too afraid to even look at my money. And I thought, how long have I been afraid to look at my money? Well, ever since I sold all my stuff, probably even before then when I was just buying stuff and not looking at all the credit card debt I was accruing. I could deal with money in terms of selling art and wheeling and dealing. But in terms of taking care of my own finances, I was too scared because money was mean. So I didn't want to hear it. So I actually like had to light a candle and sit down and do a little, you know, like get myself into some kind of state and set a timer. I started with 15 minutes. So it's like, okay, this is going to be safe. This is going to be safe. And just creating a safe container so you can slowly start to look at your finances, look at your relationship with money and start to build on that. Marci Grossman (13:43) Do you have any good stories to share about others as they've gained control? How maybe it's created more freedom for them as they've had a better understanding of their money or things like that because people learn a lot from stories. Crista Cloutier (14:00) They do, they do. I have stories about how people have learned how to market their work in a way that takes more responsibility for it. And money's very much a part of that. So I'll use an example of an artist named Ta who lives in Thailand. And... someone had written to me, he was a British tourist and he'd seen Ta on the side of the road drawing and he thought that she had great potential. And he had known about my workshop and he said, look Ta works in a sweatshop, she's lost her home, she's lost custody of her children, she has no money whatsoever but I'm willing to buy this for her but there's no market in Thailand. You know, there's a few hotels but there's no galleries or anything. There's really nowhere for her to sell her work. So he got the workshop for her. I said, let's do it and you know, let's teach her how to sell work online. And now she has a house with a swimming pool. She's got her kids living with her and her work is selling for $7,000 a canvas and she's just got a book published on her work. So taking responsibility for the business side, which includes money. Marci Grossman (15:26) Right, absolutely. And It's hard in this day and age to have freedom if you don't have some level of money, some level of your understanding because whether you're paying for supplies or groceries unless you're drawing on air with air there has to be a starting point. Crista Cloutier (15:33) Yeah. Yeah, and it doesn't come from magical fairies. I think so many of us wish it would that, you know, I will be discovered. You know, someone will discover me. Well, yeah, this tourist did discover Ta. She had her stroke of luck then, but she took advantage of it. She studied my class like she was studying for the medical exams. You know, she put all the steps into place. And I worked with another artist in the United Kingdom, Mark. Who had also had a really unfortunate set of circumstances happen. And he'd been robbed and he and his wife had ended up homeless. And he wrote to me, he had seen my emails come through about my course and he was feeling very bitter. Like, yeah, right, that's good for you, but I've hit rock bottom. And I gifted him my class and he decided to seize that opportunity and we continue to work together now. He owns his own gallery. He's flourishing. So I really believe that if someone does the work that they can succeed. Marci Grossman (17:00) Right, but it's learning to do those things that you don't already know how to do. I mean, Ta could be an amazing artist Crista Cloutier (17:05) Right. Marci Grossman (17:07) and this guy gave her generously your course, but just showing up and sitting in the back and, okay, well, I'll take it in by osmosis and not doing the work wouldn't have changed her life. Crista Cloutier (17:18) Right. Right, or saying, I'm not good with money, or I don't like to talk about my art, or I hate making sales. Well, you're deciding your own future there. You're the one getting in your own way. If you can't wait for the world to discover you, you have to take the steps to show it who you are. And that's true in any entrepreneurial business. Marci Grossman (17:48) As an artist you are an entrepreneur and you are trying to run a business and you've got to either learn to do it yourself or have the resources to hire or find people to help you do the parts you don't want to do. Crista Cloutier (18:03) And I think every single day, I get an email from an artist saying that they're really interested in my course or in working with me, but what they really want is just someone else to do all this stuff for them. Do I know anyone? And I'm like, the art fairy doesn't exist. No one wants to make an investment in someone who's not willing to make an investment in themselves first. No gallery wants to work with someone who doesn't already have a business foundation for themselves because it's a partnership. It's a business partnership. Marci Grossman (18:38) Your website, you offer classes, I assume those are group classes, but you also do individual coaching and that's predominantly teaching them how to price and sell their art? Crista Cloutier (18:46) Mm-hmm. How to market, sell, price, yeah, websites, online marketing, social media, client relations, all of it. It's a big landscape, the art world, and that's the beauty of this moment. know, everyone is sad and bemoans the days when the galleries would take care of this stuff for artists, and those days are gone. Galleries don't do that anymore, and they're few and far between. But really, galleries had very closed doors and was only a few artists who could get in. And there were only a few people who actually invested in art and bought art. But the internet has opened it up, incredibly, exponentially. And now people, all kinds of people buy art. People who never would have walked into a gallery before or bought art. So anyone who does anything can find a market for it. Marci Grossman (19:32) Right. Crista Cloutier (19:44) That's a real opportunity. If you think entrepreneurial, entrepreneurially. Like an entrepreneur. There we go. Marci Grossman (19:52) Yeah, it's a tough word. Like an entrepreneur. And then you also have a YouTube channel. Crista Cloutier (20:01) I do. Yeah. Marci Grossman (20:02) and what is on your videos on the YouTube channel. Crista Cloutier (20:05) On YouTube, I, ⁓ well, I live in the French countryside. So when I get seized with inspiration, I'll often pull out my camera and make a video in a really beautiful place out in the forest, or I've got friends with really beautiful homes, and I'll make videos very much about the business of art or the life of an artist. I also make workshops ⁓ for YouTube, that I share, so I share a lot of free content. I've got about 200, 300 videos up. I've been doing it for a while. Marci Grossman (20:39) So that's something that people who they're not sure about the class, but they want to kind of get an experience for who you are, they should be checking out your YouTube channel and seeing the kinds of things you offer there. Crista Cloutier (20:45) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I want to say one more thing about money if I can. I but there was a part of my story that I think might be interesting to your audience is that after I declared bankruptcy and I decided to start The Working Artist, I didn't have any money. I think they leave you with like $179 or something like that. I had no money to my name and how am I possibly going to do this? And what I did was crowdfunding. Marci Grossman (20:56) Please. Crista Cloutier (21:19) And I don't know if any of your guests have talked about crowdfunding. I haven't heard any from what I've listened to, but it's... Marci Grossman (21:24) They haven't. I would love to hear which platform you used, why you chose it. Crista Cloutier (21:31) I chose Indiegogo because a lot of artists were using it at the time. Kickstarter is great too. It was kind of hard to choose, but I ended up going with Indiegogo. And in the end of the day, it's not really about the platform. It's about your audience. And I started teaching the working artist in person. I was living in England, so I would visit different universities and art groups. And I was using that to sort of workshop the workshop to see what kind of questions I was getting and what people were really interested in and how my material was being understood and translated. And I was building my email list as I was doing it. And I was posting on social media and building my social media following as I was doing that. And I did that for about a year before I launched my campaign. So I already had somewhat of an audience. And when I launched my campaign, I just threw it out there and I worked really, really hard. A crowdfunding campaign is probably the most exhausting thing a human being can do. It's 30 days and 30 nights of asking people for money. It's really not very pleasant, but it's an incredible marketing tool because it helped me to get my word out in a really, really big way, bigger than to get more attention that I would have gotten had I simply just you know, hey, I started a class, put it online. It was much more intense and it got a lot of attention. And because there was an urgency to it, people started to feel like they belonged to something. And the people that contributed to my campaign back then, that was, think, 2013, are still working with me today. So those relationships are real. And I highly recommend crowdfunding to anyone who has a big dream that they don't know how to achieve. Marci Grossman (23:21) Yeah, I've participated in crowdfunding from the, I guess, consumer side. If someone's inventing a board game or something or other, if you get in a certain amount at a certain time, you get a copy of the game for free or a digital this or whatever else. But I know Crista Cloutier (23:28) Mm-hmm. Marci Grossman (23:39) many of the platforms work differently. They're more designed for an entrepreneur, they're more designed for an artist, this one is designed for people who have had a medical emergency or whatever else and they're not giving anything, they just need the financial support. Crowdfunding, I'm actually working on writing a chapter for my next book on the basics of the various types of crowdfunding. So I'm thrilled you brought it up and had such a positive experience from it. Crista Cloutier (24:11) Absolutely. I have a workshop on it and I'll share it with you. If you remind me to send it, I'll be happy to. Marci Grossman (24:17) Sure, I would love that. So your classes, are they live classes or you're letting people into a previously filmed because you already went through and smoothed out what you need to teach in that class? Crista Cloutier (24:29) Yeah, that's a good question. I've got two levels of classes. One is called the Working Artist Journey, which is completely do-it-yourself online. You can watch the videos and download the workbook. You can work with a coach that I've trained if you want to. And you are invited to calls every month that I hold for anyone who's ever taken my course and until the end of time. So I've got people who have been on my call since 2013. So it's a great community. So you can join that community as part of the working artist journey. And once a year, I run the Working Artist Academy, which is a 12 week program and includes live training every week, mostly about AI and art, but not completely. But that's just something we've been experimenting with to see different ways we can help people use AI in responsible ways as artists and also mitigate the fears that are coming up for artists and some of the challenges. ⁓ And then, yeah, so that's with weekly calls and discussion boards and a lot more hands-on in the academy. Marci Grossman (25:37) Yeah, I love the idea of being able to present information that maybe will help artists to take more control of their situation. It's a challenging profession. Crista Cloutier (25:50) It is, it is, even on a good day. It's not easy. You're putting the most personal, most vulnerable part of yourself out there for people to judge. And people aren't always cognizant of that, and they're not always kind, and they can be very dismissive. And you tend to take it very personally. And that, you know, I think artists have...They really struggle because if they're not selling their art, they think it isn't good. And they really need to separate their worth and the value of their work from their bank account. Those are two separate things. Totally. Their bank account is a reflection of their marketing, not the quality of their work. Marci Grossman (26:30) Right. Right, so again that's something you either have to learn to do or you have to find someone to do it for you, but it's separate. Crista Cloutier (26:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Marci Grossman (26:47) Crista, do you have anything else you'd like to mention that maybe we haven't covered? Crista Cloutier (26:51) I just want to say that shame around finances can become a trap and people can get stuck there. I know when it was suggested to me that I didn't have a choice but to declare bankruptcy, I thought, I heard you have no choice but to go live under a rock for the rest of your life. You know, like you failed at life, go to the corner. And in fact, once you can separate your identity from your bank account and learn to take responsibility for it, the world really opens up to you in a whole new way. And it is scary. ⁓ But money, money isn't mean. And money isn't awful. Money is just a thing. And you're putting all of that, you're putting that onto money. So stop doing that, and start learning about what it really is and how you can control it and manage it. And if anyone out there is creative and entrepreneurial, I invite them to join my email list at theworkingartist.com and I've got an art business assessment that would help them. Marci Grossman (27:58) Well, thank you. That's great. Crista, thank you so much for being my guest today. We appreciate you taking the time to join us here. Crista Cloutier (28:07) I really enjoyed it, MoneyMarci. Thank you. Marci Grossman (28:10) And to my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Crista's information in the show notes. Please check her out. She has a lot of interesting information. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this.