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#80 College in a Polarized World: Navigating Conflict with Resilience with Bob Bordone · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

Bob Bordone: Camera. That's why I got that. Yeah. Great. Great. Great. It might not stop me from having a sip of coffee now and then, but it's good to know like, you gotta Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: I'm gonna scan.Sarah: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: I will be drinking coffee and water. Yeah, right. Okay, listeners are really excited. This is a topic that Sarah and I both in our offices and definitely when asking college students what they're kind of experiencing on campus. And maybe I'm gonna be honest, a conversation that I'm a little nervous about because it's...Sarah: You gotta hydrate. You gotta caffeinate, you gotta hydrate.Sarah: I...College Is Fine Podcast: I'm just gonna honest, it's difficult for me even as a therapist to really sit with a lot of the emotions people have about the current climate of the world as people are navigating their values and dealing with a lot of current events. So that's why we had to bring somebody in who's an expert on this. And I'm hoping might learn some things for myself as well as a way to support.Sarah: Yeah, we outsourced.College Is Fine Podcast: College students. So Bob, you are here today. Would you do us the favor of introducing yourself and tell our listeners all about you?Bob Bordone: Sure thing, thanks. Thanks, Susan Sauer for having me. I am, first of all, to say, super excited to be here because in some sense, the inspiration for a lot of the work that I do comes from working with university students, both undergraduates and then in particular, students. So yeah, my name is Bob Wardone. I specialize in conflict and negotiation and dispute resolution and do a lot of work.Bob Bordone: Around dialogue. I spent two decades teaching full-time at Harvard Law School and continue to do a lot of executive education at Harvard, but I'm not teaching full-time in the law school environment. But I've spent the last few years writing a book on conflict resilience that was very much inspired by some of what you just mentioned, Liz, this challenge in extremely polarizing times.Bob Bordone: Of talking about topics that really can cut to the heart of emotions and identity and in ways that are very hard and yet very important, particularly as we live in this moment in our country where divisions are rife on university campuses, but more than that, obviously in Washington, but even in families.Bob Bordone: And so anyway, it's a long intro. I'm really glad to be here.Sarah: No, it's perfect. I think, yeah, there's always in college campuses, you know, the typical conflicts you might see. You know, my roommate goes out way too late or I get up really early and she won't let me turn the light on. But I think that Liz and I have both started to see and hear a lot more about a much deeper concern where some of the conflicts are really just much more about your identity or your religion or your faith, your political stance.Sarah: We've had people who are like, I can't go to the formal with this person because they like to a pro-Trump post, their friend put on, or I can't ask out some specific, maybe I'm afraid to ask out somebody or get to know people because I stand on one side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they stand on the other. And so now it's so much more perhaps divisive, I think, than some of the struggles that a lot of people's parents or older siblings even didn't have to go through. And so they're navigating.Sarah: A lot more than your typical college student. What are you seeing in terms of some of those? I mentioned a couple, right? Are there others you're starting to see? Is this reflected in some of the students you're talking to?Bob Bordone: Yeah, mean, all the topics you said, Sarah, and I think one through line that I've experienced as a difference, because in some sense, I mean, certainly the, what time do you go to bed or noise in the room, stuff has always existed. There's also been political differences that have existed, but I think one shift that I've started to observe, and this will also date me,Sarah: Hahaha.Bob Bordone: But in my early years teaching, in the early two thousands, and also when I was in university, I think there was a case to be made, that was highly persuasive around if we kind of talked with each other, we'd find some common ground and that common ground could be the impetus for some kind of shared project. Right? So if we were to take, I don't know, let's just take something like abortion, right? That a pro-life and a pro-choice person.Bob Bordone: Would probably not land on their same viewpoint around that issue, but maybe they could do something to support women in crisis. And I think the shift that I've started to notice, and I wonder if it comes up in your work, is that in fact these people on the other side, there's nothing we have in common. They're kind of creatures of a different reality.Bob Bordone: There is no shared reality and therefore somehow engaging with them is a complete waste of time. The stakes are way too high. And last thing I'll just say around this is the sense that if I do engage, it's a betrayal of my people, my side. And so the cost of that is also.Sarah: Hmm.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: Really high. And so all of that, I think, takes what was already hard and makes it way, way harder. And that's a shift that I've felt and seen.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: Absolutely.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. And I feel like leading to my next question is kind of like maybe why avoidance is like the go-to strategy for managing conflict potentially. But now, you know, I do feel like the polls of it's either, you know, really extreme at times activism potentially like pro-conflict. Right. Or really avoidant of.College Is Fine Podcast: Conflict. Any idea in terms of like why college students might prefer avoidance as their conflict strategy?Bob Bordone: Yeah, for sure. So, you know, so I was very fortunate at this, this book project that I did was with a brain scientist, the guy who is a NYU Grossman and, and a lot of his interest in this was looking at, mean, his own work really looked at brain health of young adults. And you know, this is in some sense, A generation that is more connected than.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: Any generation, right? Because of, you know, these incredible little devices. On the other hand, you have this incredible high level of depression, of like low self-esteem, of loneliness. And I think part of part of what is driving, right, the avoidance. So the way our brains kind of react in the face of conflict is we can typically go to one of five F's we identify. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, or fester.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: And you've kind of brought up the flight piece and the flight is extremely convenient in all sorts of ways. Um, and highly adaptive, like from thousands of years ago, right? I mean, if you're under assault, uh, flight is really a good thing and our brain wants to protect us. And I think part of why we see this happening more in this moment, I would say is two things. One is just the ease of flight is so much higher than it was even.Sarah: All.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Right.Sarah: Great.Bob Bordone: 15 years ago, right? Because of social media, because there are these ways that we can kind of curate these cocoons of comfort. Someone says something that is unpleasant and you disagree with, you can block them. Thought you're done. Yeah. Actually, you say something back, then you block them, right? Now you have two great things going on for your brain. One, you've relieved the anxiety of them. And two, all of your people.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah, yeah, yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah, then you do it.Sarah: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Bob Bordone: Are gonna thumbs up you, love you, like you, right? So your brain is getting all of these hits. And I think the thing that, and this is like for me as someone who is kind of law trained and taught negotiation and conflict from the perspective of, yeah, how do you kind of resolve conflicts but not looking at the brain science piece? The brain science piece is so interesting to me because the thing,College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Mm hmm. Right.Bob Bordone: That will make our brain do something that is hard, right? And engaging in a problem solving, hard headed way across a line of difference is nothing if not hard. But the thing that makes us do it is when our brain perceives, this is what's called the bigger, better offer. So there's a guy, you guys probably know Judd Brewer, right? And if we don't see the bigger, better offer, we're not gonna do it.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. Yeah.Sarah: Mm-hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Do it, yeah.Bob Bordone: And so for me, in this, particularly in this moment, that flight thing, or even, know, I don't remember if you said it's like, it's like the say something nasty and then run. Like, you know, like, and then you play and you're, and you're getting like, your brain's getting all this stuff, right? And we're not counting the long-term social costs of that, which I think is very profound.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: All right. You get a little fight and then you flee and you're great.Sarah: Yeah, we talk a lot in our work about short term versus long term benefits. when so I think that bigger better offer when it's further out into the, you know, kind of the ether or maybe more of a hypothetical, it can be, you know, it's like, well, hey, that's that's in 10 years from now. Right. But right now, if I unfollow, I feel good in the moment. I what I love about your work is that it feels so optimistic.Bob Bordone: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Right? Because you hear the word conflict and immediately you can think of all sorts of things. Like I could just say the word and I'm just probably feeling a little bit more tense on my body. But you talk about conflict resilience, which I really, really love. Like let's tie those words together. So I wonder if like that's this idea of what students could really need these days is some sense of like, how can I have these maybe discussions? Maybe how would you?College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Bob Bordone: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Rename or rebrand conflict and how can it be relevant for the dorm room, classroom and group chats when it comes to that resilience piece?Bob Bordone: Yeah. Oh, thanks for asking this. mean, um, cause a lot of times people kind of, don't know, they maybe quickly read conflict resilience and they say conflict resolution. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like this is really different. Um, and it's different, I think, because I see the resilience piece, that ability to sit with the discomfort of our disagreement, um, as a, like a very central, I would say leadership skill.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Bob Bordone: And kind of executive functioning skill. And so here you are in university and you're learning all sorts of substantive knowledge and hopefully how to think critically and be a problem solver. But the only way you could ever be an effective problem solver is if you have some capacity to sit with those with whom you have problems and hash it out. I mean, especially if you can't vanquish them or otherwise.Sarah: Mm.Sarah: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right.Bob Bordone: Avoid them forever. And whether you are someone who's interested in medicine, environmental science, politics, immigration, the only way we'll ever be able to move forward in any of those challenging issues that we face in our society for our future is if we have some capacity to sit down with those who see it differently.Bob Bordone: And the notion that somehow, even if you think like 30 % of only 30 % of the people on the other side, that you can yo yo back and forth every two, four or six years and actually solve these problems. Doesn't make sense. And so, so I think the resilience piece I kind of see as a leadership skill, as a, as a very core to.Sarah: Yeah.Bob Bordone: Really any kind of professional engagement where you're gonna be working with other people. then I think the other thing, so I would just say around that is that a precondition of being conflict resilient doesn't need to be that at the end we resolve or solve it or agree. That ability to disagree better,College Is Fine Podcast: Hmm.Bob Bordone: It's just a really valuable and necessary human skill. And there's benefits, right? Because sometimes even in our disagreement, we have more connection because we are more authentic, you know?Sarah: Hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Right, right. Yeah, I was thinking about that if we kind of piggybacked on that, you know, there's these inevitable conflicts that will happen in college. Like we said, whether it's, you know, a dialogue you're having with a professor about an issue that you disagree on or an issue with a roommate or your parent back at home. Understanding that there might be some benefits to approaching something that's emotionally uncomfortable.Sarah: I love that, disagree better.College Is Fine Podcast: I think is a helpful incentive, right? But if we're really thinking about how could developing this skill of resiliency in the face of conflict strengthen relationships, what would you say to a college student who's really scared about putting a boundary in place and a friendship or telling a professor that they were maybe, I don't know, I don't know, out of line in something that they discussed or something like that? Yeah.Bob Bordone: Yeah. Totally.Sarah: Too harsh to that grade or they insult, kind of insult a part of their identity or something.Bob Bordone: Yeah, yeah, no, I love this question. So I think the first thing that I would say is, um, and you know, in our book, we like the first few chapters of the book really focus on what, you know, we call the negotiation or conflict within. So meaning that that side of them that is afraid to raise something they should embrace. Right. Um, and that side of them that also knows they have.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: Something worth saying, something that's important, they should embrace. They're both real. And I think so often, depending on our personality type and maybe our family of origin, we kind of evaluate one or the other out. Folks who maybe are very aggressive barrel forward with a kind of punacious assertiveness thatBob Bordone: It's not really a service is aggression. It kind of gets them in trouble. And, and, and, um, but then others are like so focused on I'm worried. What if it doesn't go well? And I would just say like, yeah, like it's good to be worried. And you also have something to say, and that is. And good and valid and we should just integrate them. And it often like can give us an opening into the conversation. Right. There's a side of me that is feeling.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Bob Bordone: Anxious about this and a bit bad about it and a bit worried about how you'll receive it. And there's a side of me that feels like if we're fill in the blank, you know, if we're going to make this friendship as good as it could be, if we're going to be able to work together as effectively as possible in this project, that it's important for me to raise it. And the truth of the matter is right. The other side, I mean, probablyCollege Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Mm-hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: The other side is going to be surprised. It's just not like what we do most of the time. But yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think though that if the other side, other person actually cares, even if they don't know what to say, they're going to pause. And if they're like, I don't really care what you think, or this is weird and I want to hear anymore, that will be both painful and also.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Sarah: Especially if it's a first timer coming in there for the like, wait, what?Bob Bordone: Give you really important information.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah, yeah. That comes back to that authentic piece, right? Where you're saying like, there's a lot that being kind of pushed under the rug, then you're not necessarily being authentic and this friendship or situation ship or relationship is playing out for longer. And it most likely won't, it'll either implode or fizzle out or something because you're not really being authentic. So the idea is, I do think a lot of people can avoid because they don't want the relationship.Sarah: Maybe to end or they could go in really hardcore and end a friendship or a relationship too early because they weren't being really flexible. I actually think this wasn't necessarily one of the questions I had in my mind, but when you said aggressive versus assertive, right? And I think about there's like aggression, assertion, and then there's just avoidance. Like I'm not gonna do all of it. What would you say, how would you define aggression?College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Versus assertiveness or maybe another way for me to ask that is if I'm watching someone be assertive versus aggressive, what would I be seeing or feeling?Bob Bordone: Yeah, yeah, I love this. So to me, aggression looks like various versions of it's my way or the highway. I'm right and you're wrong. Know, raised voices, table pounding. Mean, assertion is speaking from your perspective and your experience, but with a confidence.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: And, so it's not a timidity, but it's, saying this feels really important to me. Here's what I've observed in my experience. And that's assertiveness, right? Aggression is I'm right. You're wrong. This is how it has to be. And I think part of the, you know, it's really interesting in my work and maybe for, for both of you too, in your work, I'm often like,College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: When I'm coaching people around conflict and conflict resilience in particular, whether it's, you know, university students in my teaching or executives, sometimes the challenge is they have this internal swirl, this internal conflict that they're not really addressing. And so one side is always winning out. Sometimes though, it's they actually, it really goes to your question, Sarah. They actually don't have a good model in their head.College Is Fine Podcast: Hmm.Bob Bordone: Of what good assertiveness is. Like I'll say to them, do you know someone who's really effective at assertion? And they might say, I don't know I should say this, I'll just, you could, I will, right? Yes, know, Donald Trump. Okay, like let's see how Donald Trump does it. And they're basically, you know, this larger than life, my way or the highway. And I'll say, so for you, that's effective assertion. They'll be like, yes. And I'll say, but you don't really want to do that.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: And they'll be like, no. I'm like, OK, like for them, it's they just don't have a really good model of what assertion can look like in a way that feels like something they want to be. And so getting out what the block is, I think, is important. And so there's going to be both, right? I'm in this internal swirl. And also, even if I could get past it, I don't know what I would say.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Sarah: Mm.Sarah: Right, right.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Right, right, right. You had to probably break it down a little bit. But I do think there is this sense of people kind of conflating or putting together assertion and aggression as if they're the same thing. So, okay, thank you, yeah.Bob Bordone: Yeah.Bob Bordone: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Well, I think, you know, when thinking about ingredients to conflict resilience, some of the things that and these are things Sarah and I have talked about in psychological terms, it seems like a willingness to embrace like you talked about when negotiating with the self as well as like trusting their gut. We would call that like your wise mind that there's something there's something here that like.College Is Fine Podcast: Is important for you to pay attention to. And you have to kind of like trust yourself that like moving forward, let's say with this difficult conversation is worth your while. OK, so can we pivot a little bit because social media is really, you know, maybe back in the day, I mean, there was not much conflict on my college campus, but like, I don't know. I think about like the 70s and like, you know, like that there's like, I don't know, these walkouts on campus and they were more like in person.College Is Fine Podcast: Conflicts that I think were potentially happening or discussions that were happening that were difficult. A lot of what's happening for my college students are online in terms of what is being reposted, what are like news articles, like, you know, there's just a lot of activity happening behind the phone. Any thoughts in terms of your research or what you've seen about how social media is amplifying conflict on campus? And how can students, I think it's hard to find a middle path between disengaging andBob Bordone: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Overly engaging in it in an ineffective way.Bob Bordone: Yeah, mean, there's to me no doubt that one of the reasons why we see less effective in real life, right, engagement on a campus is because of the social media aspects. And I think this is something that I started to see very particularly, again, beginning around 2015, 2016, you would say something in class and the next thing you know, someone would...Bob Bordone: Host something in an anonymous way and you would feel ruined in some way. And so then it was like, well, you know, what is the upside of engagement? It's all risk. It's all downside. Okay. That's not, that's just restating what you said, Liz. That's like, that's like, okay. So I think what are some thoughts I can, I, you know, I have on this. It's, I think it's challenging.College Is Fine Podcast: Hmm.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Sarah: HeheheheheBob Bordone: I would just say that...Bob Bordone: As much as possible, if there are ways to set up, you know, certainly like from a professor perspective, some shared ground rules or norms about where we're going to, what's going to stay in the room. Um, how are we going to engage outside the classroom? Now, are they enforceable? It's going to depend on a university. It's going to depend on the atmosphere and the space, right? But some intentional work about, we, we talk in our book about.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Bob Bordone: Creating conflict resilient greenhouses. And I think, yeah. So I think this is right. How do you set up a set of shared norms and expectations? And certainly universities can do this to some extent. A professor can do it to some extent, but also student groups and friend groups can do it to some extent. I do a lot of work with an organization called Seeds of Peace.Sarah: Mm. Say more.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Bob Bordone: Um, that originally was founded to bring Israeli and Palestinian young leaders together. And we still do that work. And, but we also have a program in India, Pakistan and a U S space program. And, um, one of the things that, um, we have done, um, and this is something that years ago, uh, around Israel, Israel, Palestine was really important was to set up some rules about how are you going to use and engage. Facebook. I mean, then it just Facebook, right?Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: And even if it's things like instead of writing, we will say in this group, if you're gonna do something, you have to record a video. Because the act of recording a video actually ends up having a moderating effect on what someone says. Right, so I think this is maybe a long way of saying trying to set up some shared ground rules, right? doing what you can to not take the bait.College Is Fine Podcast: Hmm. Mm-hmm.Sarah: Right, right.Bob Bordone: When something is triggering, right? And so what could that look like at an individual level? there's a lot in the brain science that we talk about this book around the power of taking a prop pause. Matt Lieberman at UCLA. I'm sure this is, this is stuff you probably share all the time. So I mean, maybe not that exciting for your listeners, right? But this idea of affect of labeling.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: A pause, naming the emotions to yourself, right? That reduces the amount of time that, you know, we call this limbic irritability in the book. like driving what's going on, right? There's research that shows that when you do this, you reduce the amount of time in limbic irritability. And so I think there's some individual strategies that people can take. And I think that, you know, each of us, I mean, there's probably something to be said about, not probably, I'm sure,College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: We don't talk about this in the book, but like what is a responsible and healthy use of social media in our lives? But listen, like, I mean, I've been tempted at times when I see something like I want to immediately say something, you know, and I just have to think a few moves ahead. And that's like a negotiation 101, right? As well.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: Right, right.Sarah: Right, yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Right.Bob Bordone: Put aside conflict, right? Negotiation 101 is if I do X, what will you likely do in response? And then will happen and then will happen. And, and that's how we end up with conflict spirals. That's how we end up in world wars, right? That's how we end up. And yeah, you know, and we don't, we don't think about, we only think about what we should do, not what's going to happen next and next and next and next. And so that's just a really important piece, you know.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Right, right, right. When everyone's just reacting a little bit. Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: Handling social media and conflict as well.Sarah: Right. By the way, even though you might be saying some things that we have talked about or know about, our listeners are sick of hearing us say it. So I think they're just excited to have anyone else say it. And it also validates us. We're like, see, a lawyer and a conflict resolution expert and a brain doctor are also saying these things. So no, that helps us.Bob Bordone: Okay.Bob Bordone: HaBob Bordone: Yeah, yeah. good. Well, you know, I would say a fair amount of the early part of the book. I did some work for about 10 years, a partnership with people in what was then called the Family Institute of Cambridge, and they did IFS, Internal Family Systems work. I think IFS is such a valuable tool, I'm sure both you know, but in conflict and negotiation. And in conflict and negotiation isCollege Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Bob Bordone: I would say often under-examined and under-studied because people are very much just focused on the behavioral kind of skills across that conflict and negotiation table. And for me, in so much of my work, part of what drew me to IFS and work that I'm sure you guys do in the therapy world is, again, I can write out what I should say.Bob Bordone: I could imagine what the right thing to do is, it's what's stopping me, what's holding me back, what are the stories and the narratives? And that work is really fascinating and just opens up like incredibly useful and powerful space, I think.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.Sarah: This is so great and I know we have taken up already so much of your time. I did want to say, know, there's if there's one and perhaps we're hacking into your book a little bit so you can shift it if it's not this. But if there's one small shift or one small ways, practical ways that they could start to build in conflict resilience into their narrative. One of the things that you wrote maybe is a practical framework of naming, exploring and committing. You've already started to say.Sarah: You know, labeling that emotion, et cetera. So I like that idea as a practical framework. You could jump off from there, say actually if it was to start, if there's one small way they could start to do it today in the next five minutes or the next day, what would you say to start with?Bob Bordone: Yeah. So I think for me, it's, like reframe what con the idea of conflict in your mind, just to try to see conflict as an opportunity for connection and a normal part of life and relationship, as opposed to something has gone bad or someone has done something wrong.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah, yeah.Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Right. I love that because certainly in all of our relationships, I think we've all had with our spouse or kids or siblings, et cetera. I've never had a conflict free relationship with my most important people. You know, even my best friends I've had since college, we've had to kind of navigate a few, a few toughies. And so I'm so glad to still have them because that, what did you call it again? The better, bigger, better offer.Bob Bordone: Yeah.Bob Bordone: Yeah.Bob Bordone: You get better off.Sarah: Of what's out there once you've managed and haven't thrown away or been too aggressive with or set too many boundaries or not been authentic in those friendships. It's like there's definitely a bigger, better offer out there down the road if you can hang in and see it as conflict, as resilience and connection. So thank you. This is great.Bob Bordone: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. Well, I'm definitely leaving, think, not feeling as like a negative emotional association with conflict, which I love that you ended on that in terms of like how a word that I think for a lot of us has a lot of meaning, not something that I would really want to hug, approach, value, I could see it from a different lens. I'veBob Bordone: I don't like pressure.Sarah: HahahahaBob Bordone: Yeah, yeahCollege Is Fine Podcast: I don't think conflict's going anywhere. So I'm really grateful that you've been the opportunity to have you on and we'll put a link in our show notes to your book and some of your work and excited for everything to come for you.Sarah: Yeah, what such good work. Thank you.Bob Bordone: I love it. Well, thank you. And this has been really fun. I love that you're doing stuff like this for our college age audience. I think it's so critical. So you know what, can I just share?