Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Ben Shewry

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Ben Shewry · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Chef Ben Shuri strives for truth in life and perfection in his new memoir, Uses for Obsession.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: This year marks 19 years for Ben Shuri's Rip and Lee fine Diner Attica, a restaurant whose legacy was built on imagination and creative fearlessness.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: It also marks the release of his second book, a memoir aptly titled Uses for Obsession.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, says Shuri, the book is about using imagination and creativity to solve problems.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Ben says, I have tried to honour that truth.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: That requires a writer to go down rabbit holes and to sit with deep discomfort for extended periods of time, to reflect upon their actions and of the things happening around them.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sharing ridiculous situations and turning them into humour was a source of entertainment for our extended family.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: To bring to life a story is to feel that you are not alone.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thrilled to have Ben Shuri on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome and very excited to have you chat to us about all things bolognese, which I have to say is one of my favourite dishes.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we can talk about that.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I like you already.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we share that.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you know, my family always said, Deb, your bolognese is just the best, but I have a funny feeling yours might be better.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I know your family, your family's right.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think um our parents' bolognese is always the best, or our family members' bolonnaise is always the best.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way it should be.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's comfort food, isn't it?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow a beautiful bolognese.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just it's such a helpful dish.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of generous like that, you know.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you're going through when you're having a hard day and you come home to bolognese, it's not that's not a bad thing.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it can also be extended to include what I love is that you can make a bolognese and it can feed 10 instead of five.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can double pretty easily.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: It can.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's great on toast, it's good in an omelet.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, of course, it's its specialty is being inside lasagna, but I I love the versatility of it.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I was quite excited that you cared so much about bolnese when I was reading.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but let's get to you.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Really interesting.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you grew up on a farm on the North Island of New Zealand, and obviously this influenced the way you do food and your childhood upbringing in the natural surroundings and coastline of North Taranaki.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like it was quite a pivotal and very important way to grow up because you were surrounded by nature.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you had your first job at 10, which we obviously know because we've read quite a bit about that, which is extraordinary, and worked at a bakery at 13, and then had your first kitchen job, shall I say, at 14.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: But really, you've been in the kitchen for a very long time, haven't you?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have been in the kitchen for a long time, more than 30 years.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the kitchen's a wild place.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's uh I remember first coming into that very first commercial kitchen when I was 10, and the chefs in this establishment was they sort of had their own enterprise, you know, this is like their own world.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And for a 10-year-old, seeing these people who were very colourful, somebody was wearing, well, they kind of looked like pirates, um, did, you know.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they they were the masters of this tiny little universe.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And even though they didn't really have any control over anything, they did have control over this one space.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and they were having a great time.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and they were making food for people and bringing joy to people, and it was really intoxicating.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I sort of get that.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because some people find it quite daunting to be in a kitchen.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as somebody like myself who's a mother of three, who's spent most of her life in the kitchen in some form or another, it it is a sort of a sacred place and a sacred space um where you're giving love a lot of the time.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're giving, you're sort of constantly going, and what do you need?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you need?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you need?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm interested because as a chef, that's really a big mantra, isn't it?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: You've either you've really got to be a giving person to be generous.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're right.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a that's a beautiful thought about being in the kitchen and providing for people.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true of the home kitchen and it's true of the restaurant kitchen as well.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, with in the restaurant kitchen, hopefully we're able to carve out a little more creativity on the side.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Although I think home cooks are incredibly creative as well.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think the variety of ways in which, you know, somebody cooking for a child is trying to get them to eat ingredients that they don't want to is is is kind of amazing.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think of my own journey with my own three children who are now almost all adults.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but in the in the commercial kitchen, um, yeah, it's a very um, it's a kind of an odd place because you're it's quite vulnerable in some ways.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're tasked with this job of making this food on behalf of your customers, and it's a really serious responsibility.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then you're also you make it and you're also, oh my goodness, do they like it, do they hate it?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do they think?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is it good, is it bad?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we all sort of live by by that and that tension between, you know, we're doing our best and and somebody might not like it, you know.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it but but the the nights where it all comes together and it's you know are are really intoxicating and beautiful and and it's the reason for it, you know, to see the joy on people's faces, it's uh I think it's uh uh it's what can't keeps me coming back all these years.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's sort of a privilege in one sense, but it's a lot of pressure in another.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, obviously what springs to mind, and and this was one of the things I was going to ask you, but it's just so visual, is obviously the bear, you know, the series, which has won all these awards, which was absolutely brilliant, which gave this sort of insight into the sort of incredible emotional hotbed that a that a chef is subject to and how he can't let all of his emotions be, which he does anyway, um, you know, impact every aspect of, but it was quite an amazing insight into what has always been a very behind-the-scenes role.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the bear's an interesting one because uh be the bear, um, whilst it has some truths, it's it's it's uh it's a work of fiction.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And really what you're dealing with in the bear is a person, you know, a protagonist who has suffered deep trauma and hasn't dealt with it and therefore is taking it out on the people around him in a variety of ways.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and um and he doesn't realize that.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think um the parallels to reality are are similar in that you know the kitchen has long been the haven for the disenfranchised, and that's kind of a beautiful thing because you really do get all walks of life in this occupation, and you know, you I've worked with people who have recently come out of prison, and I've worked with people with a variety of mental health issues and people with anger issues, and I've been subjected to all kinds of things in the kitchen, um, some good and some tremendously good and uplifting and some really bad.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and it's just because you know, it really does attract a certain a certain sort of person, or you know, sometimes it's a last resort or the only thing that a person can do, you know, and that that's a little sad in itself, that part.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I also like that it does provide an occupation for people that, you know, are struggling to find work.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I as I write, it's one of the rare places where judgment largely is left at the door, and uh and it doesn't really matter what school you went to or what you've done in the past, it just sort of matters what you'll do on behalf of the team in the kitchen.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this really family aspect to kitchens, which I think chefs find very compelling.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit like a sports team.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can sort of see that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And actually it's quite pivotal and critical because that team needs to operate left hand, right hand to make sure that actually the deliverables are what they are.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, without the team, it's not sort of an so on one hand, chef is hierarchical, sort of, which I find really interesting.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a family, and you've got the person at the top who obviously has to, you know, navigate and drive and energize and facilitate.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then you've got the the familial collegiate aspect.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a real it is like a bit like a sports team, like a coach in some ways, but then you're also right in there playing with the team.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and the players of the team or the chefs in the kitchen are bonded by that pressure and and by the challenge and by the failure, you know, and that um tends to accelerate relationships and you know, I have lifelong relationships with people that I've worked in kitchens with, um, some of my oldest and best friends.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and so much of that foundation was just being in really difficult situations constantly, long hours, um oppressive conditions, great conditions, what whatever it was, um, you know, we sort of were forged in in the fire of the kitchen.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um it's just a different relationship than a lot of other workplaces.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and and that's quite evident.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And also from from what I'm reading, I mean, one of the your trademarks actually is your fearlessness in most of the things you've done, you know, and obviously this this book is an exemplification of that too, and we'll get to that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think you're just a deep down rebel?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and you like to challenge the status quo, and you know, you're just a quiet rebel.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're not sort of like, you know, burning down the highway in a leather jacket with, you know, on your motorbike, but you could be, or maybe you do, I don't know.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's it's like there's a definite um ferocity and uh sort of fearlessness that you operate with, is my observation.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm wrong.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: You tell me.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think you're you're right.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and and I don't think I it's not an intentional thing, really.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's just me and um where I come from, the backcountry of New Zealand, and sort of like uh being up against it a lot in childhood with our family struggles and and the struggle struggles of the farming community as well, which you know is still very much like that to this day in places in in Australia and New Zealand.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and you sort of, you know, out there, I as I say, and you know, in the great nothingness, um, nobody's coming to save you, you know.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to kind of get on with saving yourself and your cut your business and whatever disaster is going on, um, you know, you really whether that be natural or self-inflicted, you you really don't have uh the luxury of packing up shop and doing something else.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's I've very much carried that into my restaurant career, and I'm so grateful for those learnings because you know, through my tenure at Attica, we've come through the GFC and then the lockdowns, and then the now the cut cost of living crisis, and you know, the highs and lows of of business.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and for me, it's just like those problems that used to challenge, it really depends on how you frame them.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you can actually now people are gonna, you know, maybe get annoyed by me saying this, but you can actually derive some pleasure from a reframing of those challenges and problems and just sort of normalize them and just think of them as things that you know you you must overcome, you know.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I I suppose my childhood was, you know, witnessing my parents and family overcoming challenges where there was not, you know, an alternative and they don't come from money, I haven't come from money.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, you know, it's worth fighting for and you do it with a team, it's who you do it with.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that experience of overcoming problems with a team is you know one of the most joyful things I know.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I also think it gives you the tenacity and you don't get the you don't get the luxury of going, oh well, you you have to have a capacity to pivot, which I think is what you're talking about, and to ride through the storm and not just because as you say, often that's a luxury, but when you've you've grown up knowing that there's not really an option, then you operate differently.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, a hundred percent.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the other side of the coin is as well, is that you know, like it's sort of easy to be successful in a good time, you know, and I I have the responsibility of many employees here and and you know, they've stood by me through thick and thin and they've put in heroic efforts for my company across the decades.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it's just as really as simple as asking yourself, if you know, in those hard times, will you stand up for them when when they need you, you know?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it the answer for me is always yes, of course, it everything will be focused on them, in fact.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if the company goes, well, that's the sort of that's a bummer, but like it won't be for lack of trying, and certainly it will be an employee focus as well, you know, the whole time.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So because those, because of you know what I was talking about earlier about this relationship that you have with people, and you know, um, and it's such a privilege.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, why do you think Attica, which has been booked out for many years and you know, it's it's an incredible success story, and I'm sure I know it's had its challenges, and I'm sure COVID, you know, I mean, to be honest, the entire world had its challenges and the whole every industry you can think of, but restaurants in particular, do you um what what do you put its success down to?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what I mean in this very competitive space?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I probably in part put its success down to my ability to surround myself with amazing people, you know.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've got single-mindedness as well for sure, which I don't want to undersell, but really like, you know, I believe in putting my faith in people and humanity, and you try to treat them as well as you can.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and I always just see that that just not it's not an expectation it's gonna come back, but that that that if you look after people, they look after you.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very simple thing.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I employ experts in all the positions of the company that I am not an expert in.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So my continuous focus can kind of be on creating food and coming up with new dishes and new ways of surprising and delighting our guests.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: A big part of my work is research of you know, food in Australia in a historical context.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, the other thing that, you know, that that I I do is I'm sort of um the main cheerleader for everybody as well.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I really like to spend time with the people that we employ and and let them know that they matter, that they're not a number.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that whole kind of approach of just being present.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is the only company that I run.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have multiple restaurants, so it's very easy for me to be here most of the time and mentor people and and and help them out each day.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that just lends itself to sort of high performance naturally.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that would probably be the the overall mindset is that we've got to come and get a bit better each day.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: We want to do a great job and we're really um sincere about it.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we take the responsibility of the guests coming each night tremendously seriously.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, what you're really saying is you're very present.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's interesting to me because obviously with the rise of the Hems and the Lucas restaurant, uh, shall we call them monoliths?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're just, you know, everywhere.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they're they're, you know, and I I and kudos to them, but it's a very different journey and a very different space.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're referring to is a very focused but spoke um harnessed uh attention as opposed to building this sort of monolith and empire, uh, although, you know, it's just a very interesting, different definition of success because what you do is very revered and seen as extremely difficult, but also that bespoke element and that presence that you refer to.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think that has changed the restaurant game or the hospitality game?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what what I'm really interested in is I'm really interested in hospitality worker-owned restaurants.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I love restaurants and respect restaurants that are owned and run by chefs and waiters.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's my that's my passion because that's where I've had, you know, on many levels, the greatest joy, but certainly that's where I've had the most interesting experiences when people have actually got a bit of skin in the game.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, their house might be on the line in the way that mine has been several times in my career.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's just a bit more, you know, reason to sort of fight and to do interesting things.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it they might those businesses might not always have the flashest fit outs, but the but their intentions are often much more profoundly heartfelt than enormous companies.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and so those are the places where I frequent.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and though, you know, in the book I make a pretty strong argument to to customers to choose to go to hospitality-owned businesses because you know, we are part of the service economy and we sort of have been held at this place in society for a long time.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're underpaid and overworked, and it's really, really hard for chefs and waiters to become owners of restaurants and getting harder.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that those are the people that I want to support because those are the really the true experts in this sort of game of business, you know, the cook or the waiter, those are the people that that make these amazing times.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's a sort of faction within our business, and this is a historical faction, business ownership, which is sort of said that, you know, all you can do is cook, and all you can do is wait tables, you know, and so I really want to empower restaurant workers to become, you know, in the in charge of their destiny and to overcome um this sort of um insecurity of business, if you like, because we'll tell ourselves time and time again, I hear this in from media, oh yeah, but like, you know, you guys just cook or you you don't know how to do the business, you know, and and we're actually kind of the business is often withheld from us.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we had we'd have no idea.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and we and we've got to learn it, but we but we have to take control of that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hospitality workers, cooks and waiters, and we have to lead it because we are the people that actually create this culture and create these great times in restaurants.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, absolutely.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it it is, I think it's a very noble and a very important cause that you're driving because it goes to the authenticity of the story.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and you talk about, you know, your mission in the book was not to do a cookbook, which I thought was great.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: That you, you know, it was about raising some of these issues.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you talk about the issue of um, you know, chefs and waiters and hospitality people having ownership.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously, of recent times there's been this trauma around uh many hospitality workers not being treated appropriately and there being, you know, quite a surge in in really quite distressing stories coming out.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think one of the problems is is that the business side of things has become so paramount that some of these elements, I mean, how what why does this happen, or has it always happened and we're just hearing about it?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's always happened, um, but people have been really scared to talk about it for a variety of very um relevant reasons.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, particularly women.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: The treatment of women in our industry is it's been deplorable for pretty much my entire career.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's never really been a safe or equal place for women, uh, particularly in kitchens.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because we've had this sort of um broke, this sort of chauvinistic, sexist, male-dominated world, and that's been perpetuated in in storytelling as well, in books and in film.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And all that has ever said is to women is this is not for you, you know.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then also because the majority of restaurants are owned by men and run by men, um, then these stories have, you know, really women who've been subjected to sexism and sexual harassment in workplaces haven't really had a place um in in many instances where they can bring these stories to light and can tell them without fear of repercussions either by um colleagues or by employees, employers.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is a real issue that and of course this doesn't just uh you know there's not only a this was a societal problem, it's not only a problem that restaurants face, but but the kitchen, you know, has been unkind and and it's something that we urgently need to address.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's good that we're starting to hear about some of these stories, but really what we need is change of this sort of toxic culture in restaurants, and it needs to be taken very seriously, and any little thing needs to be taken very seriously, even just um a a throwaway sexist comment in the kitchen, you can't walk past that, you know, and because that is only going to lead to a bigger issue, and then when you mix in, you know, the abundance of alcohol that restaurants have by their nature, and then a history of uh drug abuse in in restaurants too, you know, it it's really kind of a perfect storm of things.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the but the change that's at the feet of the owners of restaurants to take the issue seriously to promote women and put women in or allow women, not even allow, that's not the right word, but women need to be in positions of power in restaurants.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Facilitate, you know, exactly.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um men, we need to learn to share, you know, and and that's it, that's a you know, that would be a step in the right direction.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have workplaces where there's a gender balance.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And because that's you know not only about being reasonable, it's also about performance, because it's you know, it a balanced uh workplace between men and women is is a better workplace.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're a little slow to learn these things, you know, these are not new.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um the what happens though is that you know that individuals are hurt badly and ultimately end up leaving the industry, which hurts the industry and hurts operators.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it is.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not okay, it's not okay, and we can't we can't walk past it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we all like I think men particularly, we need to be, you know, we under need to understand our inherent sexism, even if we don't think we're sexist.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, we we have we just need to be conscious of it as men and we need to discuss it.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not rocket science, you know.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it is frustrating that in 2024, you know, some seven years after, you know, the second wave of Me Too in 2017, that these issues are still coming to the surface because that felt like a moment of change.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, what I think happened was we saw a few bad actors who were outed.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and part of the problem with outing individuals as well, I should say, not they don't deserve to be outed, but it it's actually a much bigger problem than a few bad people.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's about how we all deal with it and we all have some level of culpability as men.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing is, I mean, often the first job that a young girl gets is a hospitality job.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, most people start off getting a bit of a waitering job.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're young girls, you know, um, you know, whether it's my daughter, your daughter, whatever, they all started.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've got a waitering job, you know, it's sort of easy, it's you know, a good sort of entry point to learn.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're paid craft, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like it's a great way to just sort of tip your toe when you're 17 or whatever to learn.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: But they're incredibly vulnerable to those, to those um forces.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think hopefully there'll be some sort of action that will make it accountability, needs to be absolutely coming from the top.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there needs to be some legal, legal sort of consequence, actually, I think.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree because the these issues that we're hearing about, they absolutely destroy people's lives, and it's got to be consequence for that, which is absolutely not okay.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in your book, you're sometimes searing, sometimes comical, carving up exploring creative freedom in the kitchen, food journalism, sexism in hospitality, which we've just referred to, the fraud of the farm to table, sustainability ethos, which I want to talk to you about, and the cult of the chef, cooking as muse, and the legendary family bolognese, as we mentioned.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you obviously have a you know a bit of a tongue-in-cheek, you've got the humour, you've got your bit acerbic.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think um is changing or needs to change over and above?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: We've just referred to the issue of gender bias in the kitchen space.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of I want to touch on this farm to table sustainable sustainability ethos.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about that and the fraud and the, you know, that's interesting to me.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: That can you elaborate on that?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, uh yeah, I can.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um when we talk about sustainability, and I'm not even just talking about in restaurants, but uh I'll everything that I wrote is really for a broader audience, but restaurants are my expert knowledge, and so they're the lens in which I can tell these stories.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But when we talk about sustainability, often as humans we talk about one thing.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So in restaurants, we'll talk about being zero waste, or we'll talk about using the whole animal, or we'll talk about just buying from organic farms or something, which are all good things, initiatives in in as individual initiatives, but often what a restaurant will do will just sort of base its sustainability initiatives around one of those things and then ignore everything else.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I'm trying to get at, and what I'm trying to suggest, and what I do do in my own business, is try to take a more holistic sense and a holistic look at sustainability and say kind of everything matters, you know.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't just kind of care about the planet without caring about your employees, and you can't just care about your employees without being a part of your community.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really about trying to kind of wrap it into a bigger view and and actually step back off.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just say we're not going to use any single-use plastics.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that should just be one thing that one change that a business makes within uh a raft of other changes that matter just as much.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: The tendency for people listening when I talk like this is, oh my God, that's just overwhelming, it's too much.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: But what I make a really, I think I make a strong argument for is actually just trying to make these small changes one at a time and not get overwhelmed with the challenges.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, restaurants are large environmental footprint businesses, so clearly we need to be leading from the front.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: The climate crisis, you know, it it's uh it it's urgent, it's right now when we need to change.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's already too, you know, we're already too far down the road.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: We should have changed already.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the food that we choose, and I, you know, I wrote this chapter, very tongue-in-cheek chapter called Chipgate, which is, you know, is sort of um it pokes fun at the far the farm to table ethos where you go to a restaurant, for example, and my argument is that you know they care about sustainability, but then they serve you a bowl of fries and a frozen and from the same producer as the big, the big, big global monolith chain.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like McCain's Exactly, you know, they're made by one or three giant, gigantic North American chip companies.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just an inherent hypocrisy in that, um, which I thought was funny and worth pointing out.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying I'm not going to eat those kind of chips.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, I understand.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying it's a bit weird to say that you support local farms and then to support an enormous multinational doesn't really play, you know.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose, you know, I'm asking people to be mindful, but also I think it's funny to point out uh things that are really, really close to the surface, but we don't observe.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's sort of an incongruity and making sure that there's an authenticity.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're saying.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is like if you're going to be authentic, which seems to be very much your mantra.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in an interview, you reflected, and I do want to talk to this.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm interested.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love this quote.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: You say, we're cooking to defend ourselves.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: There are all kinds of things going through my mind.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's the fact that I haven't seen my children for three or four days, that I've missed children's birthdays, my wife's birthday, events that have meaning.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that if I'm falling at the rest failing at the restaurant, I'm failing my family because I'm not with my family.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm not with my family, how dare I do a shit job at work?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: That quote from you is it's it's from obviously when the kids are a bit younger, but uh it's what I love about it is your whole mission is about how can I be my most authentic best self.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you put obviously enormous pressure on yourself to do that in all, you know, whether it's honoring the sustainability or whether it's dealing with, and I think that's are you a perfectionist, clearly?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I I guess I am a perfectionist who understands there's no such thing as perfection.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the two parts there, I think insufferable.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can be insufferable if you're very driven, and if you're ambitious like I am.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So being mindful with that ambition of the people around you is absolutely crucial.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But then the second thing is is if you think that you've achieved perfection or getting close to achieving perfection, you you've lost the plot.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's a bad place to be.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And your hubris and your ego has just overcome you and your ability to learn anything further.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think there's nothing perfect in this world.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I'm certainly far from perfect.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we're all on a journey of um, you know, trying to do the right thing.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I really do believe in humans.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most of us, you know, if given the choice, if if given the knowledge and and if we're able to admit our ignorance on things, we'll want to do the right thing, but it comes back to education and knowledge of things and being curious.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And also of evolution.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we all evolve, and at the end of the day, you you go on the journey.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like couldn't agree.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, on that on that note, just finally, do you still live over the bridge?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because you were spending about four hours a day driving back and forth for the morning commute.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't done that for uh oh my goodness.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, I moved I moved about eight years ago.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh good.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was reading that and I'm going, that was impressive when you were doing all that.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was pretty insane.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was lucky I got away with that if I'm being honest.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but that was just that that was just where I was at at that time of time.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was the only house I could afford, you know.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Totally making it way away from the restaurant.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Four two hours, what was it?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Two hours there, two hours back.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you used to do.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, incredible.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you know, I suppose finally just a reflection on, you know, making time for love for kids, for family and friends in between all the cracks of the of delivering the best possible food and having one of the best restaurants with, you know, all the chefs' hats and doing such incredible work.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we all struggle with this.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly I know, you know, a lot of people who are exemplary at their work and they're they're the top of their game, like you are, trying to find that balance.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: How hard is that for you?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, it's it has been a struggle in younger times, but I I I have pretty clear view on balance and on life.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it's just one life.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a work life and a home life.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, it's sort of like that's construct that we've built for ourselves to say this is when we're working and this is when we're home.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I just try to have one sort of high level of excellence for everything.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and in that way, I don't have to kind of rise up or come down.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can just kind of meet things in the middle, and whether that's a personal relationship or a work relationship or a project that you know, I'm renovating a house, I'm I'm renovating the restaurant, you know, just try to apply that.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm not always going to, you know, hit that high level that I expect that I I want to.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but for me, it it's about seeing life in its totality and about the potential of everything and the joy in everything.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I just couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I just think that doing things with humans and and making making creative projects is is so meaningful.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And might be a lot of people listening who who are working in an office job and think that they don't have that ability.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: You absolutely do.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that like even in the most potentially, you know, boring, seeming occupation, there's a lot of creativity.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all have and it's an innate human characteristic to be creative.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it might just be that there's a small problem that you're solving, but that is still can be deep create creativity, and that is still really, really valuable to society and and to us as people.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us who feel like we're not creative, I'm going off on a tangent, but some of us who feel like they're not creative.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd just like to point out, I'm sure that if I if I spent a day with you, I would see a variety of ways in which you're you're moving things forward.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that is what it means to be human, really.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think to problem solve and to and to do stuff.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And as a as a father, a parent, and a husband, I always, always want to bring the children into the importance of my own work, not not because I think it's so important, but just to show them that it's really good to be passionate about what you do.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that they understand also some of the sacrifices that I've made that benefit them, you know, and and so they don't view it as sort of a negative.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: They can actually see it, oh wow, you've actually, you know, you're actually responsible for a lot of other people, not just us, you know, and these people are really gorgeous.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the kids love coming here, even as adults, they still come here and they walk around the, you know, before service, walk around the room talking to all the staff and being excited.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I actually I have to say on that note, I love that reframe and I think it's really healthy.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it obviously has taken you a long time to get to that, but it's a really important, you know, different view of the way I love the way you're saying it's not just work and then it's found, it's like it's all blended and you do the best you can at all.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really interesting perspective because you're right, we've got these constructs that maybe need to be rethought.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And just finally, you know, the you say the book is about using imagination and creativity to solve problems.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's one you've just actually solved for lots of people talking about that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that's a really interesting, you know, if you could just give us a final perspective on what why the book offers that and and how.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think the book offers that because I'm never ever coming at any of these issues from a perfect place.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always looking for my own culpability in every situation.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So generally, the story is here's what happened, here's how I messed up, this is what I learned, and this is how we move forward.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of my strongest beliefs is as a human is that it's absolutely not okay to just complain.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna complain, you've got to honor the the work as well, or or whatever it is, is what you're saying.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you if you could you know it's not okay just to complain, you've got to find a way to move the wheel forward, you know, like the wheel's gonna turn right one way or another, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: We can't stay entrenched in the positions that we're in, and every generation evolves and you know, seemingly does better or sometimes worse than the previous.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but uh but but the idea is um as as we go on that we get wiser and smarter and gentler and softer and and more empathetic.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the human condition.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on that wonderful note, Ben, thank you so much for your time and joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've learned a lot listening to you, and I look forward to seeing what you do next, and I'm sure it'll be amazing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: But the book sounds very exciting.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's going out to the universe this week, is it?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: That it launched.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, six days in.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there you go.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone, go out and buy uses for obsession.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's very exciting to hear um one of our greatest chefs talk about life.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope everybody enjoyed the wonderful interview with Benchuri.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Deborah.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: What a pleasure.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Love Dev.