Latest / The Scene Projects / Courtney McKenna on Rock and Roll, Marketing, and Building Community through Music

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Courtney McKenna on Rock and Roll, Marketing, and Building Community through Music · The Scene Projects

• 0:02
  Welcome in to another exciting episode of the scene.
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  I'm your host Bubba Starts, and with me today is singer songwriter and podcast host of the
• 0:09
  music is my mantra podcast, Courtney McKenna.
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  Courtney, welcome to the show.
• 0:14
  Hello.
• 0:14
  Thank you.
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  Thanks for having me.
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  Well, it's a pleasure to reverse the roles here.
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  I was a guest on your show recently.
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  Just released, actually.
• 0:24
  I got to listen to it yesterday.
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  Absolutely loved being on it and loved listening back to it.
• 0:30
  I forgot how fun the conversation really was.
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  So looking forward to getting to know more about you today, and I can shut the heck up.
• 0:39
  You know, I I like to listen to my guests.
• 0:42
  It's, you know the stories that they have, it's it's all part of what makes us who we are.
• 0:50
  Right?
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  So it's yeah.
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  It's great.
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  I had a really fun time with you on my show.
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  And so listeners of the Scene Projects, go check it out.
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  Definitely just interesting similarities and also just you're a wild card at heart.
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  I love it.
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  Well and today, we get to hear about your story.
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  So I guess up to you how far back you wanna go.
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  But go ahead and give us a little backstory, and then we can talk about all the stuff you're
• 1:19
  up to these days.
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  Alright.
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  How far back?
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  I was born in 1988.
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  I am a marketer as well.
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  So let's see.
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  I'm from California originally.
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  I grew up in Arizona, and my dad was in California and Hawaii, so I spent a lot of time
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  between the three different states.
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  I've always loved music.
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  I grew up singing in church, and I played clarinet for eight years, you know, through
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  school and marching band, which I hated.
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  But it was, you know, it was also a really fun time looking back, and there were some good
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  things.
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  Yeah.
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  I went out to school, studied marketing and business, and I thought I wanted to work in
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  fashion.
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  I didn't really know a lot of musicians, you know, who were doing music for a career, and I
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  would my grandpa was an entrepreneur in the car industry, started the business in the fifties,
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  family business.
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  And so I wanted to do entrepreneurship and marketing.
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  And I graduated early because I had got really burnt out school.
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  So I was like, get me out of here.
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  Moved to New York City.
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  I was there for about a decade.
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  And really when I got to New York, that's when I was like, wow.
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  Cool.
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  I can start my life now.
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  I feel like, what do I wanna do?
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  You know?
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  And I I like I said, I thought I wanted to work in fashion.
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  So I was in college doing a lot of sewing and creating things for people, and I got to New
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  York.
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  And I had an intern there, internship working for free for a metro card, you know, just
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  hustling.
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  And I started dating a musician.
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  And then I moved into a place that was called the Rad Pad, and it was full of musicians.
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  And I'd to say that's where I got my rock and roll education.
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  It was like a storefront that was, you know, illegally built out into a four bedroom
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  apartment.
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  And we had a basement, so we had a practice space there, and we would throw shows and have
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  parties and stuff.
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  And, yeah, you know, that's really New York is where I I taught myself guitar.
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  I started, you know, songwriting.
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  After four years, I finally got the courage to play my songs out.
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  You know, I was playing with other bands and singing with other groups and stuff, and it's
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  just been an evolution ever since then.
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  I moved back to California in 2019, and I have had multiple lineups of my band since then.
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  This is probably the sixth lineup.
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  You know, with COVID and everything, it's just been a a really wild roller coaster.
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  So I'm kind of coming back from actually, Sunday will be my first full band show in a
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  year and a half with, you know, all new songs and stuff.
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  So that feels good.
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  And I I used to play out, like, every single weekend doing cover gigs and that sort of
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  thing.
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  And I've always had a, you know, my marketing business as well.
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  So I've kind of had the best of both worlds there.
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  It's yeah.
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  It's been it's been a journey on both fronts.
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  It's it's challenging, I think, to be an artist and to figure out how you're gonna survive
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  financially.
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  And so I feel really grateful that I've always had that background, but I always also had a
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  lot of doubt in myself because I didn't immediately go into, like, a corporate
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  marketing job.
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  You know, I've always worked for these for the most part, I've had some some bigger roles in
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  the past, like, six years.
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  But, you know, there's a lot of grassroots.
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  Like, I worked to start a community art space in Bushwick in Brooklyn.
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  Did a a lot of a lot of different gigs in lots of different industries.
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  So yeah.
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  Have you
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  always had your own kind of marketing firm then?
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  You're kinda just doing your own thing, a lot of social media stuff?
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  Or or what's kind of the basis of your marketing company?
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  Yeah.
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  I'd say social media has always been something that I've had my pulse on.
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  You know, initially, when I just got out of school, it was like Twitter and Facebook just
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  became public.
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  It was like, you know, just for college students when it first came out.
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  So it's changed so much, and there was also resistance in the marketing industry towards
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  social media because people were still really entrenched in, like, traditional marketing
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  practices, even though the Internet was, like, blowing things up and changing things so
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  quickly.
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  And so I think it's it's fascinating because it connects us in a way that no other time period
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  has had this opportunity.
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  But, of course, there's also, like, the side effects of it, you know, overwhelm.
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  And if you use it in the wrong way, it can be, like, pretty toxic.
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  So, yeah, I've I feel like I've sort of had to fight that a little bit, like, saying, hey,
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  this is the future.
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  Like, still to this day, I have clients that aren't fully sold on it because they're like,
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  but how can you measure it?
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  And I'm like, well, everything is connected to clicks and links.
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  And, you know, it's actually like it it's really can be a super powerful tool.
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  And I just you know, I think it's an endless learning process because it is constantly
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  changing.
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  So.
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  Well and and we we spoke about it a little bit when I was on your show as well, but both of us
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  being eighties babies, we kinda grew up in the old analog world and have experienced this
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  massive change as young adults and now as kinda, you know, the OGs of a lot of these
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  scenes now and Yeah.
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  And have watched it change.
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  Right?
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  Well, you know, when when social media kinda first started, oh, what is this?
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  And have watched the last decade of, you know, the toxicity that you talked about.
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  And I think there's an awakening now where we realize what it is, we realize the tools, you
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  know, kind of the methods are pretty set in.
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  It's no longer really a new space.
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  Right?
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  It's pretty well known how the spaces work, you know, the the advertising models that are
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  there, how to use it.
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  But there's still so many people that are just not investing in that side at all.
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  And it's you know, same thing for me is, you know, especially out here in South Dakota,
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  there's a lot of businesses that don't even have a Facebook page and don't have a lot of
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  things that you're like, wow.
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  You are now, like, two decades behind.
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  Right?
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  Like, you you we need to get you first up to speed, and then we can talk about actually
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  implementing some of these things.
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  Well, it can be super overwhelming.
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  You know?
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  It's just like there's so much being thrown at you every time you open the app, you know?
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  And it feels like, oh, is my message really gonna come through?
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  And now everything is being flooded with AI, so there's like a lot of controversy around that,
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  you know?
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  Controversy, I don't know.
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  Yeah.
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  I it's fascinating to me.
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  I think it's like a reflection of our culture, and it's a it's a tool.
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  Like anything else, you know, if you if you don't have like healthy boundaries around your
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  how you spend your time, then, like, it could go south pretty quickly.
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  So yeah.
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  I'm I'm fortunate that I found podcasting.
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  Yeah.
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  And now that I have a purpose when I'm online, I don't do a lot of doom scrolling.
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  Not that I ever did, but with especially with Facebook groups, it became a lot easier to
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  network.
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  I was able you know, Facebook started segmenting people into these things.
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  So finding groups that are active and have active members and, you know, one that I've
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  used that's been nothing but a blessing to me was a podcasters on Facebook.
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  Facebook group, fifty, sixty thousand people strong now.
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  Cool.
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  And you don't even have to know everyone.
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  I dipped in, was like, hey.
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  Looking for guests for my show.
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  Next thing you know, the calendar is full, and it's like, oh, wow.
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  I only need to dip into this a few times a year Yeah.
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  Really into this pool of people.
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  But we talked a lot about community on your show as well and and what, you know, the scene
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  projects are, what your podcast is as well.
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  Music is my mantra is even if the community that you're building doesn't have a huge
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  listenership, this culture and this community of artists that you're interviewing, Right?
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  And, no, no.
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  I'm not saying that it doesn't have the listenership, but the fact that you you're able
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  to have this Yeah.
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  Well, you have this vessel now, and I know it because I've done 200 episodes.
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  I've done episodes with at least a 150 of those people that I've never met before, right, that
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  weren't part of my group.
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  So I've been able to expand my network.
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  Can you talk about the value of a podcast?
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  And not just a musician, but really to any business out there that is looking to grow a
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  community around them.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, you know, I think it's not even like, it it's so much broader than just a podcast.
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  Right?
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  Like, the thing about the podcast is that it gives you a platform to connect with people,
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  and that's really, like, I think the foundation of it.
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  So, like, when I you were talking about, like, you know, before the Internet.
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  Right?
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  So to promote shows in New York before the Internet, you would, like, just put flyers
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  everywhere.
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  And you get people to, like, go around and hand out flyers, come to my show, that sort thing.
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  Now, it's like, think about it, by connecting in the digital space, you can just you can
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  connect with so many more people.
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  And so I think that's the power of podcasting.
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  But at the next level up is, like, when you're building a community, it's incredible how if
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  you go into it with no expectations, like, you're giving a platform to somebody else.
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  You're giving an opportunity to share their voice, to share their music, and the the
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  reaping of that reward isn't immediate, but it always comes back to you.
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  So, like, for example, during COVID times when everybody was, like, afraid to go outside and
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  lockdown, I was I had basically just moved to Los Angeles and I was pissed.
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  I was not happy to be locked inside.
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  I was like, I live at the beach, like, I'm gonna go out to the beach, like, I'm there's no
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  way I'm gonna get sick from going to see the water, like but, you know, they were like
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  fining people a thousand dollars, and I just I just felt like, f this, like and so I started
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  hosting these outdoor concerts because we have a balcony in our our street here, and my
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  roommates, they all worked in, like, events and marketing as well.
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  So, like, we all moved in together about a month before lockdowns, and then suddenly, we
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  all had no jobs.
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  And so I was like, look, you can't I I don't wanna just like stop living, you know?
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  And I had plans to start touring and stuff.
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  I had shows lined up to go back in New York City, and that was like literally the week of
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  lockdown.
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  I had to cancel everything.
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  And so we just like invited the neighbors over and we're like, hey, we have this space.
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  You can social distance, like be safe, obviously, you know.
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  But like, let's get together and let's just invite our friends to play on this outdoor
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  space.
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  And so we did that for a year and a half and it was really just out of, like, we've got time to
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  organize it and, you know, we have this space and it's outside and, like, why not?
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  So from that series, like we did one concert every month for, yeah, about a year and a half.
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  And I met so many incredible artists and like they invited me to go play at their showcases
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  later on, you know, and still like the connections that I've met through that time,
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  which I had no expectations when I was building that.
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  I was just like, let's let's just do something, like, you know?
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  And so I think that's kind of how I've been approaching the podcast too.
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  It's like, I'm just gonna invite people on, and then I know that down the road, like, it's
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  gonna build and it might not be how I imagine it to be building, you know?
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  Like, maybe the podcast won't be the the big thing that I monetize and, like, go all in on.
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  But, like, I know that the opportunities will come back in some form, in some way.
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  And I think that's just how, you know, the more that you can, like, give to your community in
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  that way, it it just makes everything better.
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  Exactly.
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  It it becomes a form of service.
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  And for me, especially, and in the entertainment business just at all.
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  Right?
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  That it's a very me centric thing.
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  Right?
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  It's very ego driven and very look at me, look at me, look at me.
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  And, you know, both of us being marketers makes you a networker, makes you a people person that
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  you want to see these other people succeed.
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  You know?
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  I don't have exactly the same experience of, you know, living with all of these artists in
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  the same house, but I've always been surrounded by artists.
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  And and when I was finally able to kinda turn that around and go, hey.
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  This is what I have, and it's for you.
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  Right?
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  This is like, yes.
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  I'm here, but it's really a platform that I'm building to have you come on and tell my
• 15:08
  friends about yourself.
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  Because I can share your music with them online, but until they kind of meet you, maybe
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  there's not that same investment.
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  So it's been a great thing for me and just having Ben on your show.
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  And now that I'm subscribed, I'm sure I'll be listening to a lot more episodes.
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  But it seems like a lot of the same thing that you're like, look, I already know a lot of
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  people that would be interested in coming on.
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  I'm always going to meet more.
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  And now I have this this beautiful show that I can share, and you just get to have the most
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  interesting conversations and meet people.
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  And then, yeah, you you never know the ramifications of each and every single episode.
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  Every episode becomes a seed, and you don't know which ones are going to grow and bear
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  fruit or not.
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  As long as it's still fun, then we're just gonna keep on planting.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And so I'd I love it.
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  You know?
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  I I started out my podcast with a couple, like, three the first three months were pretty much
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  all solo episodes, and I didn't even realize, like, how badly I needed that just to talk
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  about my story, my music, like, all of the knowledge that I have when it comes to wellness
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  and that whole side of everything.
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  So, you know, now I'm like, great.
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  I feel way more confident because I've shared my story, and now I'm just focused on, like,
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  amplifying other stories of music and wellness in that intersection that I feel like is really
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  overlooked.
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  Definitely.
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  So you said you got your first full band show coming up in a year and a half.
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  You just have to be absolutely thrilled to finally get back out there and to play some
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  music.
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  You know, LA has been through a lot, you know, not just the last five years.
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  Obviously, the Palisades fire and so much has happened there.
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  Riots all the time.
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  And what is the what's the pulse of the LA music scene right now?
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  You know, I I'm laughing.
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  I'm not trying to be insensitive to everything that's happened, but I the media likes to
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  amplify the crazy extremes.
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  You know?
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  So, like, the day of the last riot slash protest, I was going down to a friend's show,
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  and I drove through downtown, and I saw, like, a helicopter, which happens every day.
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  Like, you know, I didn't see anything.
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  I obviously, like, I have a very different story than other people.
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  Some people, like, their works got raided and, like, things are happening.
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  But I just I don't feel like it's really had a negative impact on obviously, there's there's
• 17:56
  like pro there's pros and cons and highs and lows to everything.
• 17:59
  Right?
• 17:59
  It's like, if anything, I think that it does feel like there's a creative rebirth happening
• 18:07
  here in Los Angeles, and maybe that's just from my perspective, but, you know, I felt like I've
• 18:17
  been sort of disconnected, like I said, from the last year and a half.
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  And I've done some solo shows and that sort of thing, but just the couple of past few months,
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  I've, you know, stepped out here and there and like just have been completely embraced by my
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  peers.
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  And I just went to another sold out show last night for a friend of mine, V Torres, and she
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  has a new album coming out.
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  And like a couple weeks before that, I went to another sold out show, you know, and I just it
• 18:50
  feels like a warm hug.
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  Like, I just I love it.
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  I I can't speak for all of Los Angeles.
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  I think what we're what's happening here in the South Bay is, like, very unique.
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  But I you know, one of the shows that I went to on Thursday last week was at the space that is,
• 19:10
  at first and foremost, a mental health space where people can go and get, like, free
• 19:15
  counseling.
• 19:18
  Venue.
• 19:19
  And then the music venue has been so popular that they had to move the counseling to a
• 19:22
  separate room or a separate building, actually.
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  And now they do shows, and it's, like, all volunteer.
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  It's called Scribble, in case anyone's curious.
• 19:36
  But, yeah, there's just I think there's a lot of really interesting, cool things starting
• 19:40
  out, and, you know, I think Scribble has been around for a couple of years now.
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  It's not like it's brand new, but I think because of the times that, you know, we've had
• 19:53
  to endure, things are starting to flourish.
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  We see a lot of the and we see a lot of the same thing kinda happening in Minnesota.
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  Right?
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  I mean, Minnesota, Los Angeles, New York, these are places that had a much different experience
• 20:08
  than rural South Dakota did.
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  So my own lived experience for 2020 to '20 has been I've the best time I've ever had in my
• 20:17
  life.
• 20:18
  Right?
• 20:18
  We never stopped playing gigs, and our businesses have been flourishing.
• 20:22
  We didn't experience lockdowns at all.
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  We hardly wore a mask.
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  Right?
• 20:26
  Like, just a totally different experience.
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  Right?
• 20:29
  Yeah.
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  And I kind of forget that except when I talk to, you know, a lot of people here and a lot of
• 20:33
  guests that we have on the show from Minneapolis and the Minnesota area that is just
• 20:38
  a much different experience.
• 20:39
  And now you're seeing what was once that vibrant, beautiful music scene kinda come back
• 20:45
  to life.
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  Because what happened during that time was that a lot of these venues closed.
• 20:50
  A lot of the promoters stopped promoting.
• 20:52
  They could they they were they were bankrupted.
• 20:55
  Right?
• 20:55
  So you lost a lot of the people that were drivers of the scene.
• 20:59
  And now what we see coming back is that there's a lot more of
• 21:02
  It's rebuilding differently.
• 21:04
  Yeah.
• 21:04
  The the independent.
• 21:05
  Right?
• 21:05
  The independent people, you have new venue owners, you have new venues with different
• 21:10
  ideas of what it is.
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  You know, it's not all about, you know, the Viper rooms and the whiskey, you know, like
• 21:16
  those those things are kind of relics.
• 21:18
  The Viper room.
• 21:19
  Well, yeah, I mean, great rooms.
• 21:20
  Right?
• 21:21
  Great rooms, but they're almost relics in today's music scene because all these
• 21:28
  alternative spaces have been opened and turned into music venues because they already have the
• 21:33
  community.
• 21:34
  Right?
• 21:35
  And I feel like that's kind of the missing part is that now you have venues that are built
• 21:38
  around a community and you just have a space rather than, like, the hot spot.
• 21:43
  I don't think people are going out.
• 21:45
  Definitely not like they were twenty years ago.
• 21:48
  You know?
• 21:48
  It it's it's just a different a different scene overall.
• 21:53
  People are healthier.
• 21:54
  The drinking and drugging culture, I feel like, is continuing to to move further and further
• 22:00
  away.
• 22:01
  And it and it's really about the music, independent artists, songwriters.
• 22:06
  Do you feel like the LA music scene I mean, Chris, you'd moved there in '19, so it right as
• 22:12
  it plummeted.
• 22:13
  But do you feel like it is more independent artists rather than just kind of the top down
• 22:19
  industry of what it was kinda traditionally?
• 22:27
  Well, you know, one of the reasons like, when I was living in New York, I always kept my eye
• 22:32
  out on the LA music scene because it's, you know, it's like where the recording academy is,
• 22:41
  like the headquarters.
• 22:42
  It's just it's always been sort of the heart of music.
• 22:44
  Right?
• 22:45
  I mean, obviously, Nashville and New York are huge too, but I think the indie musician thing
• 22:53
  has been building, and it they they had a really thriving scene before COVID here, you
• 23:02
  know?
• 23:02
  And then now the artists that I used to follow are like, oh, the scene's washed up.
• 23:10
  Like, what what is the scene, you know?
• 23:14
  And I've heard that from a few different artists that are really into like the whole LA
• 23:19
  Hollywood thing.
• 23:20
  And I think to your point, it's like things are shifting in that sense where like if you can't
• 23:29
  plug into a community or have your own that you've been building and cultivating, that's
• 23:35
  where maybe you feel left out or something.
• 23:40
  Like, I I have never had a chance to ask these artists in particular, like, what why do you
• 23:45
  feel like you need to move somewhere else, you know?
• 23:48
  But I think maybe it's a little bit of, if I were to guess, like, just wishing that there
• 23:55
  was more being poured into them and more inspiration, I guess.
• 24:02
  But I've always been the type of person where, like, I'm I have no lack of inspiration coming
• 24:09
  to me.
• 24:10
  You know?
• 24:10
  Like, I I've never really cared to follow trends.
• 24:14
  Like, I've always been interested in in trends and fall like, watching them, observing them,
• 24:20
  but like I've never really been the type of person where I necessarily, like, have to have
• 24:28
  the water bottle that everybody else has or like the whatever, you know.
• 24:33
  I usually, I like to I've always like to make my own clothes.
• 24:36
  Like, like to do something just a little different, you know.
• 24:40
  And I think maybe that's more of what we're seeing.
• 24:44
  Plus, you know, industry is like dead, honestly.
• 24:47
  Like, you can't make money from streaming.
• 24:50
  Like, you you can barely make money from touring because most of the traditional venues
• 24:54
  have these buy ins with the larger, you know, Live Nation or that sort of thing.
• 25:01
  So it's like, even if you're a small band and you get paid, like, $200 a night to open for an
• 25:08
  act on tour, let's say, then you might still have to give, like, a solid cut of your merch
• 25:15
  to the venue because of the rules.
• 25:17
  Like, it's just I not that you can't make money touring, but for a while, things shifted from,
• 25:22
  like, you know, you used to be able to sell CDs.
• 25:25
  And then it was like, well, now streaming killed that, but you can still make money
• 25:28
  touring.
• 25:29
  And now it's so expensive to tour.
• 25:31
  I feel like, you know, unless you're doing, like, a house shows thing and you are plugging
• 25:35
  into that community, friends of friends that are craving live music and something real, it's
• 25:42
  like there is this, I think, uprising of artists that are realizing that, you know, and
• 25:46
  people are leaving Spotify.
• 25:48
  And well, even you said, you know, you didn't wanna be on Spotify with your music, you know?
• 25:53
  And and honestly, I nobody has even heard that yet.
• 25:57
  Right?
• 25:57
  Yeah.
• 25:57
  And I've already seen two or three of my friends that are like, I'm done.
• 26:01
  Well, because AI is causing their songs to get flagged anyway, and then they're getting taken
• 26:07
  down because of bot streams, which they didn't pay for or do in the first place.
• 26:12
  So what's the point?
• 26:13
  If it's not working for you, why invest any time and energy into that and seeing people
• 26:19
  kind of reversing that trend?
• 26:21
  And I think it's it's our generation that have lived through it.
• 26:24
  We grew up.
• 26:25
  We were fed a dream.
• 26:26
  Hey.
• 26:26
  You gotta go to New York.
• 26:27
  You gotta go to LA.
• 26:28
  You you have to be in these things, and you gotta get seen by industry, and then they're
• 26:32
  gonna make you famous.
• 26:33
  Well, nobody's around to make you famous anymore.
• 26:36
  Right?
• 26:37
  Like Yeah.
• 26:37
  That that's just not unless you're lucky enough to to, you know, somehow crack the code and to
• 26:43
  get on Joe Rogan's show, right, or or something like that, there is no really big bump that
• 26:49
  that comes from really anything.
• 26:51
  There's a lot of small ones.
• 26:52
  There's a
• 26:52
  lot of don't know.
• 26:53
  Couple fans.
• 26:54
  Right.
• 26:54
  What's gonna pop off.
• 26:55
  Like, it's like the whole trending things with going viral.
• 26:59
  Like, you never know what's gonna what people are gonna resonate with.
• 27:04
  Like, I have a friend Jed, and he's in this band Feed the Kitty.
• 27:09
  And he and my other friend, Jack, went to Vegas, and it was Jed's birthday.
• 27:16
  And there was he got, like, extra security checks, you know, going through the line.
• 27:22
  So Jack's there, like, making a video of it just on the spot and singing happy birthday to
• 27:27
  him while he's getting checked by security.
• 27:31
  And it's got, like, a 150,000 views in, like, overnight.
• 27:36
  And it was just it's like, that has nothing to do with their music, you know?
• 27:40
  But that's like what he's going viral for.
• 27:42
  And it's brought in some new followers and like it's just weird.
• 27:46
  And like, it's a funny time and I think the if you're gonna be an artist and truly speak your
• 27:53
  truth through music, through your craft, and really, like, treat it as a craft and not just
• 27:58
  like a hobby and I'll make music with AI or something, you know.
• 28:01
  It's like there's still this I think people who are really truly invested in the art, the
• 28:09
  artistry of music, like, you have to just make your own path in every single sense of it,
• 28:18
  like, the sound, through the marketing and connections, you know.
• 28:24
  It's and you never know.
• 28:26
  Like, you still might only be heard by, like, 15 people on a monthly basis, but it's like, at
• 28:33
  some point, something could break through and everything could change in twenty four hours,
• 28:38
  you know?
• 28:39
  Well, and I think you listen to a lot of stories of people who have gone viral Yeah.
• 28:45
  That that's exactly what it was.
• 28:46
  It was a piece of throwaway content that that was sitting around and, oh, crap.
• 28:50
  I gotta post something today.
• 28:52
  And you reach into the file and you throw it out there, and next thing you know, it's got a
• 28:55
  couple million views.
• 28:56
  And you're like Yeah.
• 28:57
  How did that happen?
• 28:58
  Right?
• 28:59
  That's for sure, like, the biggest thing that I've really been trying to practice and also
• 29:04
  that I've seen and keep coming back to is that consistency, you know?
• 29:09
  Whether it's consistency through putting content out and just learning what people
• 29:15
  respond to or not, Consistency, like, doing vocal warm ups, like, you know, just taking
• 29:23
  care of my instrument.
• 29:25
  Consistency, like, once a week giving myself the space to write and, like, work on my songs.
• 29:32
  You know, it's a it's a long game.
• 29:34
  Like, if you're an artist, you really have to put all the desire for, like, financial gain or
• 29:42
  anything like that aside because I think in this day and age, like you said, you you're not
• 29:47
  just gonna get discovered, and you really have to do some soul searching and and commit to
• 29:55
  what it is that you wanna build.
• 29:58
  And being conscious of it.
• 30:00
  I think that is something that has occurred to me over the course of the last two years.
• 30:06
  And not that I didn't have a lot of, you know, fans around me, people that have known me most
• 30:10
  of my life know that I sing and play music and are doing this, but I never really settled
• 30:15
  into, like, well yeah.
• 30:17
  But all you people are part of this web of my life.
• 30:20
  And if you all if I had something and allowed you to support me, I wouldn't have to go and
• 30:27
  work and to do those things.
• 30:28
  And and I think a struggle for a lot of artists is the marketing business side of it.
• 30:33
  You have to have something to offer.
• 30:35
  You have to have whether it's merch or or it's it's, you know, cameos or or whatever it is,
• 30:40
  you have to have something that you're offering to them all the time in order for them to
• 30:46
  support you, to get that.
• 30:48
  You you have to have that ask out there consistently.
• 30:51
  And I think a lot of artists just aren't used to that kind of that transactional approach.
• 30:57
  But without it, nobody's gonna know that you need it.
• 31:01
  Right?
• 31:01
  I think all of us kind of sit back and are just like, oh, yeah.
• 31:04
  They're doing fine.
• 31:05
  Right?
• 31:05
  Oh, they're doing great.
• 31:06
  And it's like, no.
• 31:07
  We're I could I could be starving tomorrow.
• 31:10
  Yeah.
• 31:11
  And I need I need this.
• 31:13
  I've had people I've I've made this reel in different variations multiple times now, but it
• 31:18
  always hits.
• 31:19
  And it's basically like, you know, people think that I'm out there playing shows and getting
• 31:25
  living full time off of my music because I'm out there every night doing something.
• 31:29
  But, like, in reality, I'm making, like, a $100 a week from music, you know?
• 31:34
  And or, like, I don't know.
• 31:36
  It's it it varies.
• 31:38
  It it fluctuates.
• 31:38
  It's not always the case.
• 31:40
  But compared to, like, what I make from my marketing clients, it's just it's totally it
• 31:47
  it's not but that's, like, what I love.
• 31:49
  That's what I wanna show.
• 31:50
  So I've been trying to be more intentional about showing, like, what I do when I'm not
• 31:54
  making music, because there's so much that I do that I'm when I'm not making music.
• 31:59
  But, you know, back to your point, it's like, I think when artists feel uncomfortable to to ask
• 32:07
  for what they need, it's it's very common.
• 32:11
  And I think we are being pushed to think of our craft as more of a business in that way, you
• 32:20
  know?
• 32:21
  And that can be really intimidating for people because if they haven't had any experience or
• 32:25
  exposure to entrepreneurship or people that have built something and done it in a way with
• 32:31
  integrity, then I think a lot of people get turned off and scared immediately because
• 32:38
  they're like, I'm not a business owner.
• 32:39
  I'm an artist.
• 32:40
  You know?
• 32:41
  But it's like, oh, to be an artist, you still have to be pretty savvy because even like
• 32:45
  painters or sculptors, like they have to sell their work, you know?
• 32:49
  It's not just, it's not just the music industry.
• 32:53
  Yeah.
• 32:54
  And maybe fifty or even forty years ago, heck, even thirty years ago, you could do that.
• 32:59
  You know?
• 32:59
  You could be a Kurt Cobain and, like, no.
• 33:01
  I'm just gonna be a songwriter and Yeah.
• 33:03
  But you don't have that industry isn't there for artists anymore.
• 33:07
  Art is a commodity now.
• 33:09
  It's been completely oversaturated.
• 33:11
  It's been all the artists have been taken advantage of for the last ten years especially,
• 33:17
  And it it's forced us to take it upon ourselves to change the way things are done.
• 33:25
  You know?
• 33:25
  We we are out here the ones who are starving.
• 33:28
  The the Spotifys of the world and some of these major labels, they're not the ones who are
• 33:34
  struggling.
• 33:34
  They were just throwing money away anyway.
• 33:37
  Right?
• 33:37
  Hoping for one hit.
• 33:39
  You know?
• 33:39
  How many bands get cut every year or traditionally used to get cut?
• 33:43
  Now you don't get signed unless you've gone viral and you've already gotten a huge
• 33:47
  following.
• 33:47
  If you get signed to a major label, there's, like, an insane stat that 80 or 90% of bands
• 33:56
  get dropped after the first year, after they get signed.
• 33:59
  I I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but, like, it's alarming.
• 34:05
  You know?
• 34:06
  And I think that is just if we could just have this shift of, like, thinking that it's
• 34:14
  overwhelming to recognizing how empowering it is to be fully in charge of our career and
• 34:22
  destiny.
• 34:22
  Like, of course, it might feel overwhelming.
• 34:24
  It's a big responsibility, you know, but it's like just what is one small thing I can do
• 34:30
  today to move me closer to my goal?
• 34:33
  Like, just it little steps.
• 34:36
  Like, doesn't have to be hours of marketing every day, you know?
• 34:42
  Like, I feel like I do every day.
• 34:45
  That's why
• 34:48
  laughing.
• 34:49
  You know,
• 34:49
  but I'm doing it for other clients.
• 34:51
  Like, even when I sit down and I'm planning my own content, I struggle.
• 34:57
  Like, it's so much easier for me to do it for other people, you know?
• 35:02
  But I'm working on it.
• 35:04
  And it's a lot of trial and error and there's but there are a lot of good resources out there
• 35:09
  to to help, you know?
• 35:11
  I know you mentioned that you were you found Indie Indiepreneur.
• 35:17
  Yeah.
• 35:17
  I actually hadn't even heard of that.
• 35:18
  So I Really?
• 35:19
  Yeah.
• 35:20
  Oh, yeah.
• 35:21
  They're awesome.
• 35:21
  And what they have is a a great course based system.
• 35:26
  Right?
• 35:26
  And, you know, they call theirs the buddy system, which is exactly what we're talking
• 35:30
  about.
• 35:30
  Right?
• 35:31
  And using social media marketing to go find your 30%.
• 35:36
  Right?
• 35:36
  Go find the people that like you and forget about the rest of them.
• 35:40
  And they've had so many people that have used their system and gone through their trainings
• 35:45
  and are living a successful career.
• 35:47
  Some of them have gone viral.
• 35:49
  They've gone on to international tours and things like that.
• 35:51
  Yeah.
• 35:52
  But a lot of people are just able we all have different ideas of what success is anyway.
• 35:57
  So just go find your success.
• 36:00
  For me, if I can find a way that this maintains for the next couple of decades and I just get
• 36:05
  to keep showing up at all the coolest places and getting to know the coolest people in the
• 36:09
  room, well, then this this has been a very successful career path.
• 36:14
  Yeah.
• 36:14
  I think you you definitely if you can define what success means to you, that is huge.
• 36:20
  Because without that, you're just gonna be chasing something that somebody else told you
• 36:24
  is the thing to do.
• 36:25
  You know?
• 36:26
  So, again, it's like, it's coming back to that who am I?
• 36:29
  What do I want?
• 36:30
  What are my goals?
• 36:31
  And I think it it's just so common for people to not think about those things because, like,
• 36:36
  in school, we're taught, like, math instead of, like, what are, you know, what are ways that I
• 36:43
  can plan for my future financially?
• 36:45
  Or, like, should I have a savings account?
• 36:47
  Or, you know, like, basics basic adulting.
• 36:50
  There should be adulting one zero one.
• 36:54
  Yeah.
• 36:55
  I need to sign up for that one.
• 36:57
  It should be free.
• 37:01
  Right.
• 37:02
  Right.
• 37:02
  Well and I think that it's definitely this generation, our generation.
• 37:07
  You know, I'm raising my kids much differently than I was raised, and I think that's gonna pay
• 37:14
  a lot of dividends twenty years down the road.
• 37:17
  And I think if both of us continue to do as much as we can using our platforms to educate
• 37:23
  people and to put it out there and support other artists, then we're going to change our
• 37:28
  worlds.
• 37:28
  We're going to change the world that's around us that we see every day.
• 37:31
  Kinda what you were talking For me, I saw I hear LA, and granted LA is a lot bigger than
• 37:37
  anybody, can ever give a credit for unless you live there and you're aware of it.
• 37:42
  But, you know, outwardly, we think of Los Angeles, and you're thinking the things that
• 37:46
  you're seeing on the news.
• 37:47
  That's kind of the first thing that come to mind.
• 37:49
  But your life around the South Bay and in that small cluster, you're like, I don't really
• 37:55
  well, I'm not I don't see that at all.
• 37:57
  That's not part of my world.
• 37:58
  And I've I've forgotten that.
• 38:00
  Right?
• 38:01
  It's been a long time since I've been back in California, but I never went East Of The 405.
• 38:07
  I was on the beach, and that was it.
• 38:11
  And Yeah.
• 38:11
  You know, right on Highway 1.
• 38:13
  You know?
• 38:13
  And I I just it it's very easy to live in a small world even though you live in one of the
• 38:21
  biggest cities in the world.
• 38:22
  Yeah.
• 38:23
  And I'm sure New York was the same way for you as well.
• 38:27
  You know, New York, you just can't get away from people.
• 38:37
  Like, in the best way and sometimes the worst way, you know?
• 38:41
  It's like but more so in the best way, I I think.
• 38:43
  It's like, I I would walk down the street and just, like, randomly be running into people all
• 38:48
  the time.
• 38:49
  And it was really easy just to, like, go somewhere and be around people and meet new
• 38:54
  friends or meet people.
• 38:55
  Like, you could have you could go out every night and just run into a whole new crowd of
• 39:00
  people, like, suddenly they're your friends and then you're just, like, having this whole
• 39:04
  experience for, you know, eight hours going around.
• 39:09
  Like, New York is just wild.
• 39:13
  But I think what I found when I moved here is, like, it's a lot more isolating because it is
• 39:20
  everything is spread out.
• 39:21
  Like, most people don't take public transportation.
• 39:24
  We, like, just got a subway last year.
• 39:27
  You know?
• 39:27
  I mean, pretty much, like, there's been one, but they just connected it to the airport.
• 39:33
  And what year is it?
• 39:34
  Like, 2025.
• 39:37
  Like, there's no other major city in the world that doesn't have public transportation, like,
• 39:42
  the lack thereof, like Los Angeles.
• 39:44
  So it's just it is very unique, you know.
• 39:48
  You could drive, like, all the way down to San Diego and except for the air force base,
• 39:55
  there's just, like, neighborhood after neighborhood after neighborhood.
• 39:58
  And, you know, it's kind of Orange County too.
• 40:01
  It's like there's little pockets and everything has its own little vibe in different
• 40:07
  communities, and you spend so much time in your car.
• 40:10
  It's like your own little bubble.
• 40:12
  You know?
• 40:14
  But, yeah, I I feel like a lot healthier here because I do feel like I have more time to
• 40:20
  think, and I have more time in nature.
• 40:25
  Like, I you slipped by a park in Brooklyn, McCarran Park, and that was, like, my saving
• 40:29
  grace, honestly.
• 40:31
  You know, like, my little patch of green space.
• 40:34
  And then, yeah, I'd, like, go to the water by the Hudson River, and that was nice and stuff.
• 40:40
  But it's just it's totally different there.
• 40:43
  Yeah.
• 40:44
  I've never been to New York City.
• 40:46
  I'm sure I will visit at some point one day
• 40:49
  Yeah.
• 40:50
  Probably with without my wife.
• 40:52
  She has no interest in big cities and that whatsoever.
• 40:56
  You know?
• 40:56
  The culture shock is just too much.
• 40:59
  Right?
• 40:59
  You know, you talk about trying to find little bits of space here and there.
• 41:03
  We're surrounded by space.
• 41:04
  Right?
• 41:04
  Like, there's nothing but open space around me for hours and hours and hours.
• 41:10
  Yeah.
• 41:10
  And it leaves me vice versa craving that connection with other people.
• 41:15
  And granted the Internet is great.
• 41:17
  I'm able to connect.
• 41:18
  We can talk on Zoom and and have that experience, but nothing beats, being, in in the
• 41:26
  space together.
• 41:27
  Right?
• 41:28
  And and having that community around you.
• 41:31
  And like I said, I'm so thankful for podcasting because it's allowed me to just show up with a
• 41:37
  microphone and to kind of be, hey.
• 41:40
  I'm here, and and this is what I do.
• 41:42
  And I just wanna capture you doing what it is that you do and kinda archiving all of this at
• 41:48
  the very least for myself to to have something, you know, on the latter years of my life to
• 41:55
  look back and to have these memories and all the all these people that I got to meet in my
• 41:59
  life.
• 42:00
  I have a record of this now.
• 42:02
  And I think that's really cool, and it's something that we kind of forget about as
• 42:07
  podcasters or as artists that we live a charmed life.
• 42:12
  And we really do so much more than than, you know, a a regular person who has a career that
• 42:18
  they stick at for forty years and doing the same thing with the same people and then having
• 42:23
  little glimpses into different life, whether that's a vacation or things like that, we were
• 42:29
  really in that space pretty consistently.
• 42:33
  Right?
• 42:33
  Even if you're only playing out once a month.
• 42:36
  Yeah.
• 42:36
  You know, I think that there's, like, something really beautiful about that that type of
• 42:40
  lifestyle where you do just have the same job and the same people and the same thing.
• 42:45
  But it's obviously becoming more and more rare, and I think that's why it's it's really it
• 42:56
  could it just doesn't happen as much anymore.
• 42:58
  Right?
• 42:58
  And I I think that the part of that is because there is this longing for more in life and,
• 43:05
  like, greater meaning, and and that's maybe the connection that you're talking about is, like,
• 43:11
  we the more that we connect with people, we get to see more sides of ourselves, and we get to
• 43:19
  experience more aspects of ourselves.
• 43:22
  And when you're just seeing the same people every single day, like, it doesn't mean that
• 43:28
  you're missing out.
• 43:32
  Like, you could totally be happy doing that, and you could have really deep, meaningful
• 43:37
  relationships with the people in your life and explore in that way, you know?
• 43:41
  But I just think that it's more rare to find that.
• 43:45
  And yeah, I I do feel really lucky.
• 43:52
  I think it's one thing that I wanna challenge myself with, you know, in the future is really,
• 43:59
  like, deepening.
• 44:02
  Like, when you're in a place where you are doing the same job, same people, that kind of
• 44:08
  lifestyle like you're talking about, I I think it's not a given that you have those deep
• 44:13
  relationships, but it's like, in my mind, it's like a a marriage.
• 44:18
  Right?
• 44:18
  Like, you you're committed to it, and so you're going, like, deeper with that person and with
• 44:24
  yourself.
• 44:25
  And, like, with every challenge that comes up, you have more to learn and discover.
• 44:31
  And so when you're from my experience, when you are just going meeting new people all the time,
• 44:40
  sometimes you can miss out on that depth because you're just doesn't mean you you're not
• 44:45
  having deep conversations, but a lot of times when you're just getting to know somebody, you
• 44:50
  don't go deep right away.
• 44:52
  Right?
• 44:52
  So, yeah, my challenge my my goal, I guess, is to challenge myself to find that depth.
• 45:01
  Whether it's in the conversations like this or just day to day, I think that's people are
• 45:09
  yeah.
• 45:10
  It can be it can be scary to go there.
• 45:12
  Right?
• 45:13
  So
• 45:14
  Well, Courtney, I've taken up plenty of your time today already.
• 45:18
  Where can people go deeper with you and find out more about you?
• 45:23
  Thank you.
• 45:24
  I'm on Instagram mostly at Courtney McKenna, and you can listen to my podcast at
• 45:30
  musicismymantra.com or follow my YouTube where I have music and the podcast.
• 45:37
  And, yeah, courtneymckenna.rocks is my website.
• 45:42
  So if you wanna learn more about my marketing or anything like that, definitely reach out.
• 45:48
  I love to help brainstorm ideas and, you know, have, yeah, have conversations with people.
• 45:54
  So I'm around.
• 45:56
  Well, I can honestly say that the two hours that I've got to spend with you have been two
• 46:02
  of the most interesting and fun conversations that I've got to have this year and maybe in my
• 46:08
  life.
• 46:08
  So thank you, Courtney, for being on my show, and thanks for being part of the scene.
• 46:13
  My pleasure.
• 46:14
  Thanks for having me.