Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Clay Croft on Building Expedition Overland, Family, Leadership, and the Greenland Film

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Clay Croft on Building Expedition Overland, Family, Leadership, and the Greenland Film · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady. I'm here with my co host
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Matt Scott Man.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: It's going.
• 0:11
  Speaker 3: How's Overland Expo treating you so far? I'm slightly sunburned
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: because I'm slightly ginger.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Have I have two gingers of the vaner than I am,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and i'd like to be. On that note, we're going
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: to introduce our guest for today, Clay Cross from Expedition Overland.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: Thanks for being with us. Clay, You're welcome, Thanks for
• 0:29
  Speaker 4: having me.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: This is gonna be awesome.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: We've been enjoying a couple of days at Overland Expo,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: which is always a time to pull together people in
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the community, pull together the folks that have really made
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: a difference for this industry, and you are one of
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: those people. Play You have had a very successful career
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: in and out of overlanding, but in the overland space,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Expedition Overland is the authority on the video side. You
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: guys have inspired tens of thousands, if not millions of
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: people through you through your videos that you have on
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: YouTube and on Amazon.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: What inspired you to do this?
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: What made you decide that I'm going to go from
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: filming TV production and doing long long form films to
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: producing X Overlin.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: What was that inspiration for you?
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for me, cinematography, for one, is a feast or
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: famine type of job, especially when you're getting started. You
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: work really hard hours for the ability to get a
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: job and hopefully feed your family for a little while.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: And I just come out of a good run and
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: then the economy hit pretty hard in Montana, and then
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: after it hit there, all my jobs fell through and
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: I just got I reached this point where I was like,
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: I can either continue to look for other work and
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: work for other people, or I can maybe this is
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: the point where I should step out and go for it,
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: and what else do I have to lose? Because I
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: didn't really see any really great future in front of
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: me at the time, Like he was going to be
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: a slog to go get more work, and it just
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: seemed like it's a slog either way. Let's figure out
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: how to might as well work for work for myself. Yeah.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting because all three of us in that
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: van and its van have have taken that journey of
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: working for others and then finding that moment in time to.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Work for ourselves.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Matt's now importing Max tracks and doing very well with
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: that and other products. X Overland has been very successful,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and I feel fortunate to produce some magazine website that
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I do. But that's such an interesting thing, and it's
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: it's something that we see often in the overland space.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: We see and it doesn't it makes sense right, because
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: it requires a certain degree of entrepreneurship. Even just to
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: decide to go travel to you have to be willing
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to take some risk. You have to be interested in
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: new frontiers or new ideas, and that is certainly the
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: case for someone who wants to start their own business.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: And you know, I've known you for a long time, Clay,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: and you've had this ability to maintain some degree of
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: focus and mindset towards your family as well. You have
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: three boys, you have a grand you have a great kids,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: an amazing wife that also does your own adventures. Tell
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: me about how you're mindful of your family, what how
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: does that dynamic enter it because Matt and I neither
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: of us have kids, so it'd be great to hear
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: how you meld young ones of family with travel.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: And the production that you do well. I will start
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: off by saying it is not easy. This is really hard,
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: and we have not done it perfectly maybe ever, but
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: we really work hard and have a mindset towards making
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: it the best we can with the circumstances that we
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: are in. Entrepreneurship takes tons of time and effort in
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: late nights, and doing it inside the overlanding space requires
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: you to travel when the jobs hit good, you know,
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: hit big leave. So what we have done, we've done
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: two things. Shelley and I proactively went to counseling, probably
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: starting almost five years ago. And for a time at
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: the time she was going through she was doing the
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: Excels racing and she had Your Love campaign. It was
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: bringing up just awareness towards sexual abuse that she had
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: gone through and was bringing awareness to that. And so
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: that bringing up things like that inside of a marriage
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: is pretty intense, and so we said, okay, we want
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: to do this. We want other people to have freedom
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: from these things, but we better make sure that we
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: have our ducks in a row before as we stepped
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: through this. So we sought out a counselor and his
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: name's Mark, and we've been seeing Mark now for five years.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: Sometimes once a week. Sometimes it's three months apart. But
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: we pro act pursued our marriage first so that we
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: can hopefully help other people, and then when it came
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: to the kids, we decided that we're going to be
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: gone a lot. That's just the reality of what we do,
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: and if we can make the time that we do
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: have really intentional, that it'll be okay. My dad was
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: a truck driver and he was gone over the road
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: trucking all the time for years, and he made his
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: time with us intentional. And I can look back on
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: my childhood and I can say I had a really
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: great relationship with my dad. He wasn't there every day
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: doing all that stuff, but the time I did have
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: with him was awesome. And I have no I wouldn't
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: change anything about my childhood. So I just want to
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: relay that to my kids too. Thankfully I had a
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: good as example.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I can see that when I'm with you in Montana,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: I can see how you are intentional towards your boys
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and you want them to experience life, you want them
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: to develop those skills. I mean, what are some of
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: the things is that you've taught your boys that You're
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: so glad you showed you expose them to that.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: We teach all of our boys to be leaders right
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: off the bat. And I think a lot of parents
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: can pick out one of their kids and say you're
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: a leader. And we try to make all of our children,
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: you know, they'll be leaders in something. So we try
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: to encourage them there and then try to encourage them
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: in the way of teamwork that they are a team
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: and instead of brothers. And it seems to be effective.
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: And then in still in them that adventures good, mistakes
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: are good and if you're not failing, then you're not
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: you know, wishing hard enough. Yeah, failure is okay. Yeah,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: this year we got the motorcycles, we got some dirt bikes,
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: and they've been failing. We were talking about this, uh,
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: just last week, how good it's been for the kids
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: to like put them in something that's scary, make them
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: go do some stuff and yeah, and I think that's
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: been good for them.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: You know. Hearing you say that, play it, I can
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: see how you've had those same parallels in your own life.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: The team that you pulled together, how you try to
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: have everyone that's involved with XO be a leader in
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: their own right, how you have stretched yourselves and your organization.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about how you selected the
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: team of people that have been in your most recent
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: series of Exoverland. I mean Kurt Williams obviously comes to mind.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Amazing guy, a friend to all of us, friend of
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the industry. Kurt runs Cruiser Outfitters in Salt Lake City.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: But talk a little bit about what do you do
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: to bring together a team of people, because we can
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: all see it in your production and video on YouTube
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: and on Amazon that you guys are a team and
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you don't have challenges or charities, but
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: how do you how do you address that as a group.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you guys portray teams, you know, being
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: a team on that show like it's it comes across.
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, thank you, and that's that feels good because
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: we do work towards that. In the last three years,
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: we've had a lot of changeover with our team. The
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: original team was easy. There were guys that I knew
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: for a long time, and I just knew who they were,
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: and I just you know, when you know guys for
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: a long time, you understand where they're going to fit
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: and where they aren't. And so I just had a
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: great pool of folks to you know, to pull into
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: the team. As we got six or seven years into
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: expedition overland that XO is a high demand, and we
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: started to lose people and then marriage. Jeff and Heather
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: got married, you know, through XO or part of being
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: in XO, and they moved out of town and things
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: like that. So we really got to this point where
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: we had to like really start selecting new team members.
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: And when I look at what I've had to do
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: in the last three years and what I've managed with teams,
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: it really boils down to first, mature. You have to
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: express a certain amount of maturity right off the bat,
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: and that is a priority over any skill set. If
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: you can teach me exactly, but you can't. Maturity takes time.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: That's a slow cook, you know. And so if they
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: at least and one of the best indicators of that
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: is teachability and the ability to listen even though they
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: may know the answer or whatnot, but they're there and say, yes,
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: tell me more. I may not know everything. I want
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: to know what you know, you get the guy in
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: there that's oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's probably the wrong guy,
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: you know. So we've scoured and frankly, some of it
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: has just been I wouldn't say luck, it's it's nurturing
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: relationships that have been around for a long time, some
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: like Brian and Meghan that came in this year college.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: You know, we're talking how long Agoes college two thousand
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: and one, so we're talking eighteen years since I've really
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: hung out with Brian and Meghan. But I knew that
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: from way back when and keeping in contact, that they
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: were an awesome group of a couple to bring in.
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: So some of this stuff it just takes twenty years
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: to figure out or bring in.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: And I find when when I try to pull together
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: a team, like what we experience with Expedition seven, one
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: thing I really look at is emotional accountenance, Right, is
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: the person able to be kind and like? Are they
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: able to maintain their humanity even when things start to
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: go sideways? Because I find that people who have very
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: weak emotional coalnments, they tend to do very poorly TV
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: endeavors anyways, easily frustrated.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Easily frustrated, and that can blow up in a border.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: They can have a tantrum because there's some issue with
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: a document, and that can easily escalate the issue or
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: start that cascade of events we talk about where that
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: one small emotional blow up then results in someone ending
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: up in prison at the other end of it, Matt,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: some things that you've seen in your travel, like what's
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: what do you look for in the people that you
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: travel with.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: I think people have to be self aware. That's that's
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: my biggest thing. Honestly. People need to be able to
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: admit that they're wrong, you know. But I mean, and
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you shouldn't stand up for when
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: you're right, because all by all means you should, but
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: you know, being able to admit, hey, you know, the
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: the reason the vehicle failed was because of me. The
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: reason we missed this border was because of me. The
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: reason that you know we're stuck in this you know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: swamp at two in the morning, when you know your
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: significant other told you not to go through that way,
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: it's it's because of you and I And I think
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: I think that that has parallels through so many things,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: through business, through personal relationships. I look at I look
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: at the people I'm close with, the people I work with,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: the people that I've assembled a team with, and and
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: and they're self aware. They I think it's important to
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: know your strengths as much as it is.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: To know that sounds like that parallels with this teachability idea.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Someone who has self awareness, they're willing to be teachable.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: They're willing even if they think they know the answer
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: to listen to.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: People that ask questions were good. Yeah, you know, like
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: that was drilled into you know, that was drilled into
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: me at a young age is ask questions and if
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: and if you if you are around people who are
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: not willing to take the time to answer the question,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: you probably shouldn't. They don't care about you, right, Like, yeah,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: you know time, time is very finite and you know,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: again being self aware enough to to not waste time,
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: but to recognize the value of others time and to
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: be realistic.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: There's another side to that too. But when I'm asking
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: and interviewing for QUE team members, I'll ask a series
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: of questions and one of them is what are your strengths? Obviously,
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: and people love to tell you their strengths, but the
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: guys that are really self aware know their weaknesses too,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: and they will admit their weaknesses. I have a hard
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: time here and here and here. So if you've got
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: a guy that can be able to do that, that
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: guy will excel quickly inside of a team. Because we've
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: all heard it before, your weaknesses are as important as
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: your strengths and understanding them. You get a lot of
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: teams that show up and everyone knows what they're good at,
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: but no one doesn't. Nobody knows what the other guy
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: isn't good at. So that sets up a big learning curve.
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: And if you can find out what that is right
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: away and a person's able to express their weakness, your
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: team just hit another level. Wait much much sooner than
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: that may take a long time in the field to
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: sort out.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so true.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: And what I've found is that the more quickly you
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: can get to that point you just described, the more
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: effective the team will be under duress when something really
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: goes sideways. I mean, Clay, you and I have had
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: the chance to travel some very cool places together, including
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: crossing Greenland and crossing Russia, and in both of those
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: scenarios we encountered times that were we were concerned for
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: our safety in some way or another. Maybe it was
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a crevasse zone we were traveling through, or or maybe
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: it was because we nearly did a head on with
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: a Russian driver come in the other direction. But it
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: does definitely quickly tell you the quality of character the
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: people you're traveling with once things start to not go well,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: and that's how you know who you want to travel
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: with in the future. And it's really a good idea
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: to start off with a shorter trip, start off with
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: something simple and see how the small see how people
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: really fit. And you know, that kind of brings up
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the next question for me. Clay, you have definitely been,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: if not a virtual of an actual mentor to many
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: people in the industry. When people watch your videos that
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: I all often hear them talk about he's such a
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: good dad, or he's a he's a good leader, or
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: he's really this team really communicates well together. Tell me,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: tell me what started that for you? I mean, what
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: brought about? Because I consider you a man of character,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: what what really brought that about for you? What are
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: some of the things that happened earlier in your life
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: or the people that were your mentor or mentors that
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: really brought that about. What were some of those key
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: stones to that.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: I would say when I was young, my family raised
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: a was part of a big ranch in Montana. Scott
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: ranch and growing up with cowboys. There is a whole
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: lot of code inside in a cowboy. And my dad
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: was a cowboy. My mom grew up, you know, in
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: a in a very intense cowboy world, and they have
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: a lot of values that they poured on us. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: so I think that's the first thing. The next thing
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: is my dad ran his own business, being a truck driver,
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: and I would go with him and I saw him
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: interact on the road with clients, and he would teach
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: me a lot of stuff. This is this is what
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: I'm doing, This is why. This is why I said that,
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: because I'm afraid of this, you know, so I want
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: to make sure they feel these things, you know, all
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: all from a very genuine place. So there's that. And
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: then obviously for me, you know, growing up in the
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: Christian Church was a big part of morality and you
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: know understand, you know what I have as values and
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: I still hold onto those very strongly today.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: It's made you a wonderful person, No, thank you, that's
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: for sure.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: And your whole family.
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And then when it came to leadership, the National
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: Outdoor Leadership School, I did in Knowle's class. The year
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: I graduated, two thousand and one high school. I'm thirty
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: seven now, and I I went into the backcountry or
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: mountaineering school, and it was half mountaineering and half leadership,
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: and we learned how we ticked right there. And by
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: the time I walked out of that school thirty days later,
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: I had a general understanding of what I was good
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: at and what I wasn't because they flush it out
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: of you, you know, and then they make you start
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: to work through it. So I really think that that's
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: probably the best thing I ever did. I did school,
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: and I did college, and some of that I didn't
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: ever graduated, But the best money and time I ever
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: spent was the National Outdoor Leadership School.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Well, that's great advice for sure, And kind of along
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: that same line of giving people advice, I know a
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: lot of people listening will have their own aspirations of
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: being cinematographers or their own aspirations of documenting their own adventures.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: What are a couple tips that you can give people?
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: As I mean watching you work in Greenland with a
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: single camera and the quality the output did at the
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: other end of it was unbelievable, what would you recommend
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: people start with? Maybe a few equipment tips and some
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: other ideas to help you better capture their own journey.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: Sure, well, to start off, you need to be your
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: own man. If you're looking to do something that someone
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: else has already done and you want to do that too,
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: it's already probably a dead end. You need to find
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: a way to be your own man and do those
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: whatever project it is, on your own. We can take
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: adapt to adaptations, of course, but that to me is
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: like the first start to something that will be successful.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: From there we can get into the nitty gritties of
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: camera work. But for me, when I approach a scene
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: and I approach movie making, I try to see it
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: from three levels, well four, the thirty thousand foot level,
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: and then work your way in the wide shot, the
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: medium shot, and the tight shot. The wide shot is
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: all the details. The medium shot is the meat, and
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: the details is what makes it savory. So you work
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: your way into a scene starting that way, and then
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: you work your way back out and if you can
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: see where those transition points are, and this is you
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: have to be able to flip your brain all the time.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: I'm in the middle of the details, but I'm using
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: my ears right now to what's happening around me. I
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: need to be able to zip out to a thirty
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: thousand foot level real quick and recognize when I need
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: to start filming a transition to whatever's about to happen next.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: And that's kind of the skill set that I've been
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: working on trying to perfect over well as long as
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: i've been doing it. Equipment choice. I had this guy,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Andrew is his name, I can't remember his last name.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: He came in when I was just starting x XO.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: He does a photography for us. He was working for
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Exofiicio time, and I asked him a very similar question,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: and I said, you know, what would you recommend for
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: me as a young photographer trying to go do all
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: this stuff? And he said, don't get caught up in
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: the gear. Uh, the tool is between your ears, and
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: you can run yourself out of money and go broke
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: quick trying to keep up with the equipment. It's not
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: what's necessary. So I've taken that to heart. And it
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: took a long time to go to four K. And
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: it took, you know, but I have recognized that there
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: are some tools that are essential to have to keep
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: an edge. And right now I'm kind of at a
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: loss with that new tool is it was drones for
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: a while. We invested heavily in those to tell stories
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: and things like that, and everybody's got them now. So
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: I'm still looking for that next thing. But that's where
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: I would invest in equipment. It's whatever that next thing
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: is that gives you a real edge, not just the fad.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of fads that come and go, like
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: since we started X so how many different transition fads?
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: You?
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it started, and I've fallen trap to all too,
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: the slumall stuff, the slider stuff. But at the still
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: we're making current films that need to be relevant.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: But yeah, you're still looking for that long term piece. Really,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: it's going to be in the skill set. It's not
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: going to be equipment.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So speaking of a long term piece, tell us a
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: little bit about the Greenland Film's.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: What's happening with that.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Greenland film is what an interesting project that was
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: because I went into it when I talked to Greg
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: when we're all talking about going to Greenland. He when
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: he asked me to go, I said, yeah, I would
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: love to go, but if I'm going to be gone
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: for a month, I need to be able to do
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: something with Expedition Overland, and he said absolutely, So my
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: intention was to go in there and shoot a couple
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: of episodes for Overlander, and then when we got there,
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: I mean it was apparent the very second that we
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: arrived that this is something so much bigger. And I
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: started just filming at the best I could under the
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: circumstances that we were all going through, and went through
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: the systems that I knew from doing Expedition Overland and
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: came out with a lot of material, not as much
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: mature as I wish I had. I would have done
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: that better had I known I was going to make
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: a movie at the time, I would have shot a
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: couple different things. Maybe I would have pushed a little harder,
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: but it worked out. And but anyway, we got home
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: started going through this footage, I was like, Man, this
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: has got to be something more. This is a bigger story.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: This is the biggest thing I've been a part of.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: This is the biggest thing I think a lot of
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: these other guys have been a part of. And I
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: think the world would need to see this in a
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: more meaningful way than what we're doing right now. And
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: the only way to do that is to put it
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: into a movie format and give it the credibility that
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: it deserved. So I went and approached Greg on it,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: and I worked for two months on an edit on
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: our own dime and everything to get him up, and
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: I convinced him to come up to Bozeman. He drove
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: up in his langcaser one day and I said, this
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: is what we want to do. This is what it
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: looks like. Here's the rough cut of Like a Very
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: And it was like two and a half hours long
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: at the time, and he sat at the end of it,
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: He's like, we're doing this And that kicked it off.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: And for nine months I cut on that film to
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: get it to where it was. Then we did interviews
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: and all kinds of it grew and became something bigger
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: and there was a wonderful project. Yeah, I can't wait
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: for people to see it. Currently, it has been submitted
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: to the Sundance Film Festival just about a month ago,
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: and we wait until December sixth nineteen here to find
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: out what happens and if it doesn't, if it gets in, awesome.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: If it doesn't, we're going to keep moving it through
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: other festivals and eventually it'll be out there so that
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: the world can see it. That's exciting, man, it is.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: It was a dream come true. You know, it checked
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: it started. I don't want to say it checked the
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: box because I think it started a new chapter for
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: me to do a project that was one hundred percent
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: to my best of my abilities, within all the means
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: I could find. You know, that was really fun.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: It couldn't have been easy because it was just you filming, yeah,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: in thirty days on the ice, twenty one days, twenty
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: one days on the ice.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I had a lot of problems, you know,
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: there's so many problems. There was, you know, all the
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: equipment problems. But then my microphone died. My main microphone
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: quit working. Half right when we got you know, into
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: the north part of Wolfland, my main might quit, so
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: I had the whole Not many people know this, but
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: like the last half of that movie, the last third
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: is recorded off the internal microphone on a seven.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: R Mark three.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: That little teeny microphone thing is what recorded all and
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: it turned out pretty dang good.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Well, and you have to deal with the frostbite. I
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: mean I remember by the middle.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Of the trip, I completely lost feeling in my middle finger.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like, this was not an easy trip for you guys.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, And even to this day, like knowing
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: what I know now, if you ask me to go
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: back and do it again, the answer is.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, I need to drag you guys someplace warm.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: We do need to go, Yeah, someplace.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Troping on with scooters and twenty five cent beers. I
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: think that actually came up at some point in the trip.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: We were talking about doing fifty cc scooters somewhere, so yeah,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: let's do some different flip flops. Yeah, it took me
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a while to recover from that when you.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Were burned out for I don't want to use the
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: word burned out, it's the right word.
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was burned out for a while twenty nineteen, twenty,
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: last half of eighteen and into nineteen here it's been
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: a tough year.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean and I mean, I guess for
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: everybody doesn't know. I mean, you guys were the first
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: team to do a north south crossing of Greenland. I
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: mean this is is that is that such a sucked?
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, south north south in the north in vehicles most
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: of the way back when you guys were at like abandoned,
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: like US military facilities from their old war that I
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: remember Sky You're saying there's like still milking the cupboards
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: or that that sort of thing.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: There's beer in the bar. It's unbelievable like this. This
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: wasn't This was a legitimate expedition, you know. I think
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: that that the term gets thrown around quite a bit
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: these days, but this was I mean, you had to
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: have medical staff with you because if you messed up. No, yeah,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: it's not like you had a long walk home.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: You you were done, you were done. Yeah.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: We had an er doctor by the name of John
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Solberg along with us, and we needed to because we
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: were essentially in these areas of inaccessibility where you could
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: not get a rescue helicopter in easily.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to pick us up.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: So John would have to stabilize or maybe even deal
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: with an emergency appendectomy in the middle of the Greenland
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: ice sheet.
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: He learned he like read up on how to do
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: you know, remove an appendix before he left, which.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: Was an appendix in in Australia or Bruce so early
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: on expission seven that was almost a thing. It Actually
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: there's two things I worry in the canning stock route.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: It's my appendix and teeth. You know, if any of
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: those two things go down, man, oh it's going to
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: be horrible.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: It can be teeth can be debilitating. Yeah, it's amazing.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: And that's definitely something for the listeners to be mindful
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: of is when you plan a big trip, go to
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: the dentist before you go. Get all of that sorted
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: out before you leave, because teeth can literally bring you
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: down or you know, get you really sick if you
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: have an infection.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: So the good thing is you can pull them out
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: if he gets real bad. You can't do that necessarily
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: with your appendix, not as easily, not as easily. So
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: so I got this pocket night.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: So what I'm talking about, you know, camera gear, And
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: you said your advice was don't get caught up in
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the gear. Do you think sometimes people in this industry
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: have a tendency to get caught up in the gear
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: and and and not to travel.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: That is a loaded question.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Oh it is. It is a loaded question. But that's
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: why we're here is to ask the real things. Yes,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: and I'm guilty of it too.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: We all are. Yeah, we all are. Yeah, shiny object. Yeah,
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: And here's the deal. I've really pulled back in some ways.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: Ask me tomorrow, I'll be a different answer. But the
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: gear is a lot of part of the fun. Yeah,
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: it's a big part of the fun. It enables the adventure. Yeah.
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: And as I've gone through the different cycles of adventure
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: and going on trips and then not being able to
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: go on trips, you know, and I've kind of evaluated myself.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: The gear can help you get the selection of gear
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: and the picking of this and.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Buying it, have to have good gear.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: It can help you get through the dry time, you know,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: and then you get on the adventure and you realize, Okay,
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: a lot of the stuff I didn't need, you know,
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: but it's there. It's just a part of the process.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: And I don't know if we'll ever eliminate it. I
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: think you just need to.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I don't think I think you should. I mean, it's
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: not a problem and and maybe I should backtrack there.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I don't think there's a problem. I just think, you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: where there is a what's what's what's your advice for
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: getting people out on the road. I mean, I mean,
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: how do you think you can when other than dedicating
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: your life to making a you know, a series that
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: you know, influences, adventure. You know, there's there's that small
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: thing that you've done. I mean, what's what's your advice
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: to take somebody that is, you know, like your your
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: average person, three kids, like yourself, married, you know, has
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: a nice life, has has you know, probably the financial
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: ability to do these things, but may not have the
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: I'm going to use the term emotional ability. I mean
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: it takes a lot too to do a one eight
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: in your life, you know. And you did that one
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: ad in a in a in a in a big way.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: I mean you you jumped off in the deep end.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: You you did the traveling and and the you know,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: from that end of your career as well. But for
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: guy that wants to get out what what what do
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: you tell him?
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: It's that classic take small steps, baby steps with a
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: big picture in mind, you can work. You can become
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: I think you can become an established or an experienced
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: explore over time without ever going on a big trip.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: Eventually you have to, yeah, I mean that's but you
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: can get. What I'm saying is you can get a
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: lot of the skill sets in small steps, small trips.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: And if you focus on this right now, I'm focusing
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: on fuel management on this one, this one's maybe mechanical stuff,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: this one's food preparation, this one's et cetera. And you're
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: doing this over micro adventures. Eventually you are building the
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: toolbox that you need to execute a big one. Then
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: eventually you're gonna have to jump and go do something
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: big and put it all to the test. And that's
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: really fun. But you can have these micro adventures along
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: the way and put it together. And I've always taken
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: Scott's advice and when it comes to and what I
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: tell people, and I give you credit for this, is
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: your truck's finished. When you've taken the last piece of
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: kid off of it, you know that you don't need
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: If you need it, you need it, sure, uh. And
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: so I backtrack backfill that with if you're building your
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: trucks and you're going on these adventures, make those purchases
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: for that vehicle based out of the need from your
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: micro experience trips that you've actually seen a need for this,
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: not just something that you want. And I'll go a
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: lot further faster.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: What's so cool is it is is if you follow
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: along through the history and you watch X Overlan, I
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: mean that's almost exactly what you did. I mean, I
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: remember when you guys were in Moab with the one
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: hundred series and the was it a first gen taco?
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Is it a second gen taco?
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: It's two thousand and one, so that would have been
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: a second gin. Yeah, first gen's first gen.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: It's a coma.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: People, Please don't hate us.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: It's all right.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: It's about the adventure or in my case, uh please
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: take a number.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: I think from my perspective, the industry needs to take
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: responsibility for encouraging people to not overhold their view. Yeah,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and that starts at the manufacturer level, and it goes
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: down to the upfitters, and it includes the media.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I think that modifications can be they can enhance your
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: trip as long as you do it with that intention
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: in mind. I just want I want people to be
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: excited about sharing their trip story more more so than
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: sharing a picture of their vehicle somebody else. When that
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: mindset starts to shift and people talk more about where
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: they've been than what they talk about what they've done
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: with their vehicle, then I think that things are in balance.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: And you can always tell when you talk. When I
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: talk to someone here at Overland Expo. The more they
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: talk about the truck, the more I know they haven't
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: traveled because they haven't made that shift yet. You know,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I think about math, the trips that you've done on
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: fifty cc motorcycles in Vietnam, those are some of your
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: adventures totally, and there wasn't there wasn't a winch in sight.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: And it just I think that obviously equipment can enable
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: things like what we did in Greenland would have been
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: impossible without extensive modifications to those trucks. That is the
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: reason to do it is because it's the only way
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: you're going to achieve your goal. But I think I
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: think what I shared even today in a class at
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Overland Expo was if you're spending more money on the
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: truck than you are on travel, flip the script and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: start to spend more money on your trips than you
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: do on the truck.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's fair to say. I mean,
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: there are a lot of equipment is very very easeful, right.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: You just don't want to be the guy that has
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: so much equipment. I mean, if if you are truly
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: a traveler, you know, yeah, flip flip the switch. I mean,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: you can take a Subaru cross track around the world.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: I mean people do every day. I've been to some
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: very very random places and here I am on thirty
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: sevens or with my crazy suspension or stuffing, and a
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: local family passes, you know, passes me the other way.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: And at a Corolla.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, the rule is there will always be a
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: Corolla or a scooter or something an rental car.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll be humbled, You'll be totally humbled.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, I remember crossing parts of Columbia towards the
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Venezuelan border, and I was on a GS and I
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: was working hard, and I was adventuring to the max.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Here comes two local dudes two up on a fifty
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: cc motorcycle. They just they blew by me like like
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: they were the winning the the car and they were
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: two up and they were just heading to their ranch
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: or whatever they were doing. So yeah, it's just so
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: important that we maintained that perspective of of add the
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: modifications that you need to, but make the focus to
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: be to get out and travel and that and that
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: brings up my next question, which is you're embarking on
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: some new adventures. You just started taking up Howard paragliding,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: and maybe did you do it because you felt like
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: a rookie all over again?
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: I absolutely did it for that. Well, I've always wanted
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: to fly, but there's just something about being challenged, and
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: that's what overlanding when I first began, was a big
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: challenge for me. I eventually learned a lot of the
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: systems and was able to go on really amazing trips
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: and get comfortable with it. And that's once you get comfortable.
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: What's the saying, you get comfortable, you're dying or something.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: You know, you're either growing or you're or I recognized
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: I was in that spot and some people said, oh,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: you did it just to elevate the show. No, I
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: would have done it regardless. I just wanted to challenge
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: myself and flight's been a big deal for me. I
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: went to get a private pilot's license, but I was
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: shut down due to a Class three medical at the time.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: It's a few years ago, and I just never was
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: able to get back did the training and stuff. I
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: had a narrow window there. This was something that I
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: could do. This is something I could step into days
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: of training. Cost is fairly low, but I could go
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: and get it and start having that experience and it's
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: been refreshing because there's not a whole lot you can
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: do to a powered paraglider. You can't modify that thing.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: The heavier it gets, the worst it gets, so there's
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: not much.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: To do to it.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I just need to go and yeah, there's no light
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: bars yet on my powered paraglider. We'll work on the mat. Yeah,
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: we're working on that. So that has been what it
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: is for me. It's an experience driven thing that I've
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: been able to incorporate into another experienced driven thing of overlanding.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: And have you started to film some of that? Is
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: that something we're going to see soon?
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah? We have filmed seven episodes. We were going to
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: break it into two series, but I got into the
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: edit and I was like, this is all one big
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: story and I need to tell it that way. So
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: we're seven episodes in. You've film of a nine part
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: series that we're shooting this year, and I do have
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: two more episodes to film from Utah down in New
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: Mexico coming up, and it should be good. We've been
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: getting our butts kicked. It's been hard and it's been good.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: And where can people find that content right now? Yeah?
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: That content will be released on YouTube on our Expedition
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Overland channel. Follow our social stuff too for the updates
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: as it gets closer, and then I'm hoping that later
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: next year I can find a way to get it
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: also on Amazon Prime, just like our previous three.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Season on Amazon Prime.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: Now we are we Are. That's been a big deal.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: Overlanding has gone prime time.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, it was a
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: big dream. We've always built our content to thrive on
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: the big screen and YouTube was the platform that allowed it.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: At the time. When we started on YouTube, it only
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: allowed ten minute videos.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I remember it.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: It was a deal that you had to have so
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: many followers until you could have a video above ten minutes.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: That was a struggle.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: That was a struggle at first, and you had to
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: you know, we've gone through it. But it was always
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: built with the big screen. It was built for bigger
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: platforms because that's the that's the field I want to
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: play on. So eventually we got there. Just took nine years.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: That's amazing though.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: That's so, what's what has been your most favorite vehicle
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: you've ever owned?
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: Ooh, also question, that is a hard question. I think
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: right now, it's I'm a Tacoma guy. I am a
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: Tacoma guy. I do really like that X three Meridian
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: with the habitat on the back. Love that, not the
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: sixty the sixty two series. That is like that's like
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: your your baby. So yeah, it's got sold too, you know.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: And I haven't driven that in over a year. It's
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: that's parked and put away. And because I can't, I
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: can't give it the attention it deserves, you know. So
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: it's it's put away in the my dad's barn right now.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: I mean that the Meridian. It's such a practical vehicle,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: right I mean, what more you believe it has a
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: heater in, it has.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: The at habitat.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's the get up.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: And it's relatively lightweight too. You see the idea or
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: your stuff in aluminum aluminum.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: It's super light. It's a really well built truck. I
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: think it's one of our best belt trucks you've ever done.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: I love my Prospector right now, or it's my daily driver,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: and uh that for different reasons, you know, is due
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: to its strengths. It can't beat the two hundred series.
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: I I it's a hard thing to pick. So if
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: you were to leave, if you had to tomorrow somebody said, play,
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: I'm handing you a million bucks. I need you to
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: drive around the world.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: You can pick one vehicle, something you currently own or
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: something you could magically make appear the next day. What
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: would you leave in anything you wanted?
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: If it was in my fleet, it would be if
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: and I had to drive around the world, it would
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: be the two hundred series.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and capable and global serviceable.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of that makes And I'd put
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: a bed in the back. I'd sleep in the bed,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: and I'd scoot I had anything I really am right now,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: I'd like to really build a prospector with a fordable
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: camper in the back. Something like that would be really good.
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: But the diesel platform wouldn't be great for global stuff
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: right now with the death and all that, So probably
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: have to go back to some form of gas.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is a really tough spot. I don't know
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: if if diesel things weren't a problem, probably look at
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: uh these Global X vehicles, the four it's the four
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: door one with the I could put my family in
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: it and go. Those are kind of cool. Nothing bigger
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: than that. That's already really big. But uh yeah, I
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: think right now, fomble camper and big long range tanks and.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Off you go.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Go.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Awesome, How fun would that be? Right O?
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: Man about you, I'm gonna do it in a little way.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: I think you got to leave tomorrow a million bucks
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: and yeah, well you get a million bucks and you
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: never have to come back.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: You got to pick a car. You gotta leave tomorrow.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, million bucks. So man, that is a question. You know,
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: the Gladiator would be a would be the reasonable choice.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: But I know it would be like a Lotus elease
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: or something, and I would just stay at the Four Seasons,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: you know. I mean, I've done the camping thing and
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: now everybody's gonna hate me. But just something different. I mean,
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: I think life is just about experiences, and I like
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: to do things that are that are drastically different. I mean,
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: you know, I think to a certain extent, you can
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: you can really isolate yourself from adventure.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: It was that Yvonne Shard adventures when things start going wrong, right,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: you know, And I think that remains true. I think
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I think you can't. You can't set yourself up for
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: too much success. Whether i'd really take a lotus. I
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: don't know, but I think something different. I think a
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: Grand Cherokee track hack would be a real interesting one,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: or a STA race people random just seven hundred and
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: seven horsepower?
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: What about the Pontiac as Tech with the tint.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Okay, So here's the deal man. The Pontiac Aztec very
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: easy to hate on, but it was way ahead of
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: its It was essentially like really the first crossover that
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: we saw. I mean like you'd gouage your eyes out
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: before you really looked at it, but when you were
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: in it, like it was an activity. It was that
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: first kind of activity vehicle. And I think that that really,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: I think that was ahead of its time. I think
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: the Nissan x Terra was ahead of its time. Like
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: if you're listening, like, come on, man, what yeah, why
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: is there no x Terra right now? There's been a
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: lot of vehicles like that. I mean, I know, Braddy,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: what what?
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: What?
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: What would you do?
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: What would you drop?
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: So I was walking down the aisle over here there's
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: this Triumph booth and there's this Triumph Scrambler twelve hundred X.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: It's like this vintage Yeah, yeah, that's very scotty.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I would just get on that bike. I wouldn't even
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't even.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Add luggage to it yet. I would just start riding
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: and I'd figure it out along it way to the
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: bell Staff store with your with your triumph and then
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, then I could put it on a plane.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: I would be out of the United States and into
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Europe in forty eight hours.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's pretty cool.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: But I think if it was a vehicle, I'd be
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: pretty tempted by Dave Hereton built a regular cab dodge
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: ram with a flatbed. I'd be really tempted to do
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: that with some kind of a of a camping module
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: or camper.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: On the back.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: How about Dave's outpost. Yeah, outposts would be perfect. And
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: it's gas to so it easily consume fuel around the world.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: It's actually really nicely done. That I was able to
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: be in that vehicle across the Altar Desert.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: It's very nicely done. That would be sweet. Yeah that
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: who does at least be as smart as yeah? Oh good.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Well, So now that you've done all of these things,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: what what is the next thing for You just talked
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: about the idea about going around the world. But if
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: you could, Clay, I mean you can start to think
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: about without sharing something that you don't want to share,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: but like, what is next for you?
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: What is next for x Overlin?
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: That's a good question. I've really been working hard on that,
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: and since since the end of the Pan American series.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: That's been a bit of a battle because that was
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: such a big vision to accomplish, and there was many,
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: many times when we thought we'll never be able to
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: do this this way, but we did and then it
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: was finished and it was almost like we outran vision,
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: but you know, it had vision fatigue, and at least
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: for myself. So I've been really working hard on that
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: and I think I'm in the middle of processing what
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: I should do next. I've learned a lot last year.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: I've had life events happen in the last year that
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: shaped me as a person, and I just don't want
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: to ever get stuck in the rut doing something because
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: that's what other people think I should be doing, or
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: that's what the industry says I should do, or you
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: did last year, or what I did last year. So
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: I've kind of been going through this big like discovery
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: phase again. Didn't see it coming, but it's definitely there.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: And now that I'm there, we're working through it, we're
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: talking a lot about it, and I think I'm on
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: skidding towards the back end of the troubling part of that.
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: I'm actually starting to think through good solutions and it's
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: amazing how much time it takes. And you just got
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: to go and think. Sometimes being so busy doesn't help
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: with all this. Yeah, So I'm putting myself in a
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: position where I can hopefully make really good decisions coming up.
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: You'll just have to see what we end up doing.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: You have a lot of fans in the space, a
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: lot of people who respect what you do on the
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: industry side, and hundreds of thousands of subscribers that are
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: passionate about your travels. So we're all rooting for you.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: We're all excited to see.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: What you do next.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Since we're at a land expo, what what is the
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: thing that you've seen here that you thought that was
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: really cool? What was the one one standout that you
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: really liked.
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: I'm always looking for the innovation where because there's a
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: lot of the same stuff year after year, and where's
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: the innovation? And I'm seeing it in like the flatbed stuff,
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: perhaps going towards more of the Australian things that have
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: been proven down there for a little while. We're starting
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: to see that, and I think that's good. I think
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: on the human element being out east here, I have
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: gotten as I've been encouraged a lot by a lot
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: of people walking around today. Folks out here are really awesome.
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: And I have heard a lot of the folks saying,
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: this is where I'm going, this is what I'm doing.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: There's to me interacting. I've heard less truck talk and
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: more travel talk here.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: Now, I thought that was cool.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: That's a positive. How about you, Matt, what's been like
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: other than your dog which was awesome? And my dogs?
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: My dog's great, sweet sweet angel Angel baby back. Please
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: consider adopting the greyhound. By the way, what have I seen?
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: That's super cool? You know, this is the first time
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: I've seen one of the Brewder trailers and they are cool.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: I think you're right.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: I think I think the industry is lacking a little
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: bit of innovation right now. I have my own my
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: own thoughts on that, but that Breweder is is really
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: next level. I think as the industry grows, it's gonna
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: we need to have those companies. I mean, even if
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: it's not a trailer for I mean they're quite expensive.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: I mean how much are those maybe one hundred and
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: thirty Yeah, I mean it's it's expensive. But you know,
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: this is the Campra trailer that that land Rover when
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: they're launching the Defender for other you know, their their
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: pre release photos. This is what they towed for their
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: photo shoot. Like it is really really cool and there's
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: great attention to detail. Yeah, I mean there's there's a
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: lot of stuff going around, you know. I think unfortunately
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of the same stuff going around. I
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: think that's something as an industry we'll have to soon tackle.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: Is you know, how many how many roof tens can
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: we have without seeing any any real leap forward in
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: quality or innovation? How many air compressors can we have
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: that are China and Alley?
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, starting to see I'm starting to see a lot
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: more diversity in the vehicles.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: When we first started doing overland expos, it was like Tacoma, Tacoma,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Tacoma land CRUs Forerunner, maybe a land rover. Yeah, and
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: then we were now starting to see full sized trucks.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: We're seeing Chevy Colorado's we're seeing a lot of jeeps.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Gladiator is a.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: Significant industry has really taken hold of the Gladiator.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is this is all extremely positive, and that
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: might be the thing that sparks that in AA to
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: a degree. But I think the thing that I took
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: away so far from this overland expol that I loved
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: the most was all of the classrooms. In fact, there
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: are standing room only and a lot of them had
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: kind of people lined up out the door, which, in
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: my mind, you don't really have an industry if you
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: don't have people that want to learn something new and
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: they want to go experience themselves. And then along with that,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: there's there are couples in the training, and there's lots
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: of couples.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: There's people with kids in the training, and there's a
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: lot of kids run around. There's a lot of that
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: new generation.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: That if you don't have kids and you don't have families,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: you don't have a future as an industry. And to
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: see that here was extremely encouraging.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I really hope over the XPO continues that
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: strong training classroom element because without it, they're just going
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: to really rapidly turn into a trade show. I mean,
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: I've I guess on the on the industry side, there's
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: been a lot to talk about. You know, are they
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: going to continue doing it? I think it's really essential.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, I agree, and it's so positive and
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I think it maintains the spirit of overlanding. I mean, Clay,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: you've done such a good job of recognizing like the
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: founding elements of overlanding, and you've you've always reinforced those ethics,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: which is one of the reason why I believe that
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: your video series is so critical is that it doesn't
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: play into the hype too much and it stays very
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: ethical and it's undertaking. And I think that that's a
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: responsibility that all of us have in this industry, and
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: which is why I'm so excited about this podcast series.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited about the people who remain the leaders
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: in the organization and in the industry as a whole,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: including X Overland. So, Clay, I'm really grateful for your
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: time today. Thank you so much for spending time with us. Matt,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: you have any more questions for Clay, Mmm, I have
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: one more question for you. You didn't have to take
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: a camera with you, and you're going to take or
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: shall with you. Where would you guys go overlanding?
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: I'll go South America again. I want to do it
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: all over again, you know, I I want to see
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: it again not having to produce something.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: And speaking of your badass wife, who's actually way more
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: inspirational than you are, she's currently doing the Rebel Rally.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and as of the first stage she was she
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: was in the lead.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: She was in the lead. I may have heard somebody
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: walking by saying she was in second. So I don't
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: know where she's at. And she's so experienced with this.
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: I mean she's been doing the Gazelle Rally in Morocco
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: since she did three Gazelle rallies in Morocco and then
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: one Rebel and then this is her second Rebel so
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: this is our first fifth rally.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: She's definitely somebody that we need to get on get
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: on the podcast soon.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: So isn't it cool that you're sitting in a white
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: van at a trade show and showing your wife's out racing.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Ripping across the Nevada desert somewhere.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Awesome?
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: Is that? It's pretty awesome? That is? I am so
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: proud of her.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you should be. And she's a wonderful human being. Well,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: thank you, Clay, appreciate it. Matt thanks again of course.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: And this wrap the Overland Journal podcast.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you all. We're spending time with us today