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"He’s Running (From Prison)." · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Pfeiffer.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:23
Speaker 1: On today's show, Donald Trump is running for president, even
0:25
Speaker 1: if it's from prison. And South Carolina Senator Tim Scott
0:28
Speaker 1: is crazy enough to think he can beat this criminal defendant.
0:32
Speaker 1: Joe Biden sort of kind of makes news about his
0:34
Speaker 1: own presidential ambitions. Lovett and other Democrats pressure Dianne Feinstein
0:38
Speaker 1: to resign. And some Republicans now want to ban entire libraries.
0:43
Speaker 1: Then Governor Gretchen Whitmer joins to talk about what national
0:46
Speaker 1: Democrats can learn from Michigan. But first, check out the
0:50
Speaker 1: latest episode of Stuck with Damon Young featuring writer and
0:52
Speaker 1: director A.V. Rockwell. who talks about her Sundance award-winning film, 1001,
0:57
Speaker 1: and Ted Lasso's Cola Bocchini, who talks about the challenges
1:02
Speaker 1: of becoming a stepparent. Listen to Damon Young for free
1:05
Speaker 1: only on Spotify. Also, check out this week's Pod Save
1:08
Speaker 1: the World, where Tommy and Ben break down everything you
1:11
Speaker 1: need to know about the massive leak of classified documents
1:15
Speaker 1: that has rocked the world and especially the U.S. government.
1:18
Speaker 1: I think they're closing in on the leaker now, Dan.
1:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot's happened in the last couple hours here.
1:23
Speaker 1: A lot has happened. A lot has happened. But that's
1:26
Speaker 1: why you listen to Pod Save the World, to know
1:28
Speaker 1: what happened, because we don't know. Anyway, check it out.
1:31
Speaker 1: It's a great episode. All right, let's get to the news.
1:34
Speaker 1: For all you Trump-hating libs who think a criminal conviction
1:37
Speaker 1: might stop Cheeto Jesus from running for president, think again.
1:42
Speaker 1: In Trump's first big interview since his arraignment on 34
1:46
Speaker 1: felony counts, he told Tucker Carlson, who has called Trump
1:50
Speaker 1: a demonic force who he hates passionately, that nothing short
1:54
Speaker 1: of death will stop him from seeking the White House
1:56
Speaker 1: in 2024. He also shared some typically sharp insights on
2:00
Speaker 1: a range of topics. Let's listen.
2:02
Speaker 3: Nobody talks about nuclear. The problem, the problem we have,
2:07
Speaker 3: the biggest problem we have in the whole world.
2:10
Speaker 1: It's not global warming.
2:11
Speaker 3: It's nuclear warming. You don't mention, I call it the N-word.
2:14
Speaker 3: You have two N-words. You don't mention either one of them.
2:18
Speaker 3: The nuclear word you don't mention. How smart is Kim Jong-un?
2:22
Speaker 3: Top of the line. Started rough, remember, with, you know,
2:25
Speaker 3: Rocket Man, Little Rocket Man? And he said, I have
2:28
Speaker 3: a button on my desk, a red button. I said,
2:31
Speaker 3: I have a red button on my desk, too. Mine's
2:32
Speaker 3: bigger and mine works.
2:33
Speaker 4: Yours doesn't.
2:35
Speaker 3: President Xi is a brilliant man. If you went all
2:40
Speaker 3: over Hollywood to look for somebody to play the role
2:43
Speaker 3: of President Xi, you couldn't find him. There's nobody like that.
2:47
Speaker 3: the look, the brain, the whole thing. He had an incredible,
2:50
Speaker 3: I'm not allowed to say it because it's very impolite
2:54
Speaker 3: and very politically incorrect, a beautiful female interpreter. She was
2:59
Speaker 3: very beautiful. Is there anything they could throw at you
3:03
Speaker 3: legally that would convince you to drop out of the race?
3:05
Speaker 3: If you get convicted in this case in New York.
3:07
Speaker 1: Would you drop out?
3:08
Speaker 5: No, I'd never drop out.
3:09
Speaker 3: No, I'd never drop out. It's not my thing.
3:10
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do it.
3:12
Speaker 3: So in one sense, it was beautiful. Because they get it.
3:16
Speaker 3: In another sense, you know, it's nasty. I went to
3:18
Speaker 3: the Wharton School of Finance. They didn't teach me about that.
3:20
Speaker 3: They didn't know about the arraignment part? We didn't have
3:25
Speaker 3: a class on arraignment. When I went to the courthouse,
3:28
Speaker 3: which is also a prison, in a sense, they signed
3:32
Speaker 3: me in. And I'll tell you, people were crying. People
3:35
Speaker 3: that worked there.
3:39
Speaker 1: I don't know where to start with that, but... I
3:42
Speaker 1: do like the courthouse. It's sort of a prison in
3:45
Speaker 1: a sense. Not really. Not in any sense.
3:48
Speaker 2: Well, no, I think there are people in prison there.
3:49
Speaker 2: It's a jail.
3:51
Speaker 1: The whole courthouse. The whole courthouse. They didn't have a
3:53
Speaker 1: class on arraignment. I also just, the fucking love for dictators.
3:58
Speaker 1: Top of the line. Kim Jong-un, top of the line.
4:01
Speaker 1: President Xi, love him. You couldn't get someone in Hollywood
4:06
Speaker 1: to play President Xi. Loves China now. Works really well
4:09
Speaker 1: with China. They get along so well.
4:12
Speaker 2: The Hollywood thing is so weird. Why can't you get
4:13
Speaker 2: someone to play him in Hollywood?
4:15
Speaker 1: We got.
4:17
Speaker 2: Someone to play Lincoln. You can find people to play people.
4:21
Speaker 1: First question, how do you think these two patch things
4:23
Speaker 1: up so quickly after what Tucker said about Trump?
4:27
Speaker 2: Well, John, true love, or at least mutual interest, conquers all.
4:32
Speaker 2: The fact of the matter is they need each other.
4:33
Speaker 2: They absolutely need each other. Tucker cannot be the top
4:37
Speaker 2: of the MAGA media without Trump fans, and Trump can't
4:39
Speaker 2: be at the top of the Republican Party without the
4:42
Speaker 2: mega media. So they are in bed together for the
4:45
Speaker 2: foreseeable future.
4:47
Speaker 1: Just wild hearing Tucker just sit there and giggle and
4:51
Speaker 1: not get a word in at all, just let Trump
4:54
Speaker 1: go on and on. The guy takes on the Chinese
4:58
Speaker 1: Communist Party every night on his show, and then he
5:01
Speaker 1: sits there as Trump's like, I love Xi, he's the best.
5:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, he basically penned an erotic thriller about Xi.
5:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's got the look. I love his look. I
5:11
Speaker 1: love his brain. The cut of his jib. Very weird.
5:17
Speaker 1: Do you have any polling on how persuadable voters would
5:20
Speaker 1: feel about casting their ballot for a convicted criminal? Is
5:23
Speaker 1: that something that the folks in the diners are looking
5:25
Speaker 1: for or what?
5:26
Speaker 2: We'll have to check today's New York Times to see
5:28
Speaker 2: if they visited those diners. But look, after 2016, we
5:32
Speaker 2: should bring a lot of humility to political predictions, analysis.
5:37
Speaker 1: But I'm going to go out on a limb.
5:39
Speaker 2: Just on a limb here and suggest that perhaps it's
5:42
Speaker 2: not going to be a strength, right?
5:44
Speaker 1: I don't know.
5:45
Speaker 2: It's not gonna be a real selling point with a
5:47
Speaker 2: lot of voters is that he will be maybe waiting
5:50
Speaker 2: his sentencing hearing while people are casting early votes. It
5:53
Speaker 2: doesn't seem great.
5:55
Speaker 1: And the people are going to say, Oh, you know what? Innocence,
5:58
Speaker 1: innocence is for cucks. I'm looking for, I'm looking for
6:01
Speaker 1: a guilty candidate. No, I fully expect that the, that
6:05
Speaker 1: Trump will accept the Republican nomination from Rikers and, And
6:09
Speaker 1: it will be a huge success, huge success for him.
6:13
Speaker 5: Yes.
6:13
Speaker 1: Trump's been trying to fight off his many other legal
6:15
Speaker 1: troubles in the week since his arrest. He just asked
6:19
Speaker 1: a judge to delay the trial of a lawsuit brought
6:21
Speaker 1: by writer E. Jean Carroll, who's accused him of raping
6:24
Speaker 1: her in the 1990s. He's in court trying to prevent
6:27
Speaker 1: Mike Pence and his other senior White House aides from
6:29
Speaker 1: testifying about January 6th. He's suing Michael Cohen for $ 500
6:33
Speaker 1: million for violating attorney-client privilege. I do think he has
6:38
Speaker 1: a strong case on that one.
6:40
Speaker 2: It seems like he might, yes.
6:44
Speaker 1: It's only been a week, but do you think that
6:46
Speaker 1: any of these legal developments have affected Donald Trump's chances
6:49
Speaker 1: of becoming president again?
6:51
Speaker 2: I think that on the margins, and very much on
6:54
Speaker 2: the margins, they have somewhat possibly increased his chances of
6:59
Speaker 2: being the Republican nominee, which I think were quite good
7:02
Speaker 2: before this. I do not think they have in any way, shape,
7:06
Speaker 2: or form helped him become make it more likely that
7:08
Speaker 2: he'll become president of the United States again. He is dominating.
7:11
Speaker 1: Though just by virtue of becoming the Republican nominee, he
7:14
Speaker 1: is closer to becoming... Yes, yes. Maybe 40,000 votes away
7:18
Speaker 1: from becoming president again.
7:20
Speaker 2: Yes, as long as he can be... If he were
7:22
Speaker 2: to become the Republican nominee, he is a near coin
7:25
Speaker 2: flip away from being the next president of the United States.
7:26
Speaker 2: We should always have to remember that, no matter anything
7:29
Speaker 2: else that happens. Conviction, two convictions, three convictions, no convictions.
7:32
Speaker 2: That is the issue. But he has.
7:37
Speaker 2: The Republican Party has in some ways consolidated around him
7:39
Speaker 2: because of his arrest, which is an amazing thing to
7:42
Speaker 2: say about today's Republican Party.
7:45
Speaker 1: I mean, he's also, and we've talked about this before,
7:47
Speaker 1: he's winning the race for attention in the Republican primary.
7:51
Speaker 1: When's the last time something about Ron DeSantis has really
7:54
Speaker 1: broken through the media coverage now that it's all Trump
7:57
Speaker 1: and Trump crimes all the time? And just to look
8:00
Speaker 1: at some of the polling averages and the polls, the
8:03
Speaker 1: primary polls, now the polling average at 538, Trump's at 49.3%.
8:08
Speaker 1: DeSantis is at 26.2%. That's the widest margin yet in
8:12
Speaker 1: the race. So Trump is significantly ahead in the primary
8:15
Speaker 1: right now, though national polls are national polls. There was
8:19
Speaker 1: an ABC Ipsos poll from last week. The percentage of Americans,
8:24
Speaker 1: the general electorate, who think Trump should have been charged
8:26
Speaker 1: is up from 45% to 50%. The percentage who think
8:30
Speaker 1: he should suspend his campaign is up from 43% to 48%.
8:34
Speaker 1: And his overall favorability rating among all voters is is
8:37
Speaker 1: down to 25%. I don't think that's good. 25% doesn't
8:41
Speaker 1: seem good when you're trying to run for president. That's
8:43
Speaker 1: down 10 points since the 2020 election. And that's just
8:46
Speaker 1: one poll. But overall, 538's average has his favorability at 39%,
8:51
Speaker 1: which is the lowest since just after he lost the
8:55
Speaker 1: midterms for Republicans. And it was around 36% there. So
9:00
Speaker 1: not doing great.
9:01
Speaker 2: It's very notable that his two most recent dips in
9:05
Speaker 2: polling are getting arrested on 34 counts of criminal violations,
9:11
Speaker 2: and costing the Republicans the Senate.
9:13
Speaker 1: And that was worse. That one was worse. Yeah, yeah.
9:17
Speaker 1: He's less popular after he lost the Senate for Republicans.
9:21
Speaker 1: But Republican politicians aren't still just supporting Trump. They are
9:24
Speaker 1: using all their power to protect him from any kind
9:26
Speaker 1: of accountability. House Republicans want to pass a bill that
9:29
Speaker 1: would move all prosecutions against former presidents from state court
9:33
Speaker 1: to federal court. I love that bill. It's like all prosecutions.
9:37
Speaker 1: So far, there's just been one. There may be others
9:41
Speaker 1: for the same guy, but so far, it's just one
9:43
Speaker 1: guy who's had prosecutions. They're also trying to investigate the
9:46
Speaker 1: Manhattan DA's office, though Alvin Bragg this week just filed
9:49
Speaker 1: a lawsuit against Jim Jordan to stop that investigation. Why
9:53
Speaker 1: do you think Bragg did that?
9:54
Speaker 2: The very specific tactical reason that Bragg filed that suit
9:58
Speaker 2: was Jim Jordan's, quote, weaponization committee had issued a subpoena
10:04
Speaker 2: to Mark Pomerantz, who was the former prosecutor in Bragg's
10:07
Speaker 2: office who resigned after the original case against Donald Trump
10:12
Speaker 2: was not brought forward. He did a very big New
10:14
Speaker 2: York Times op-ed. He did a lot of interviews. I
10:16
Speaker 2: think he wrote a book. And so it is to
10:18
Speaker 2: prevent that subpoena from moving forward and just the general
10:22
Speaker 2: idea that Bragg understands that Jim Jordan has committed everything
10:25
Speaker 2: in their power to throw up roadblocks. And so he's
10:27
Speaker 2: going to try to use the courts to stop that
10:29
Speaker 2: from happening.
10:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it just seems like, uh, I mean,
10:34
Speaker 1: good for, I think also Bragg wants them to know
10:36
Speaker 1: that like, he's not going to be afraid of them. Yeah. And,
10:40
Speaker 1: and also wants to probably highlight how ridiculous it is that, uh,
10:43
Speaker 1: the federal government is somehow getting involved in a local
10:46
Speaker 1: prosecution because, um, It's a bunch of Republicans are upset
10:50
Speaker 1: that their front runner is the guy who committed the crimes. So, yeah, good.
10:55
Speaker 1: Good for Bragg. But we will. I heard that he
10:58
Speaker 1: pulled a Trump judge in the lawsuit, which isn't which
11:02
Speaker 1: isn't great. But we'll see where that goes.
11:04
Speaker 2: Turns out there are a lot of those Trump judges
11:06
Speaker 2: out there.
11:08
Speaker 1: Trump's legal troubles don't seem to be preventing other Republicans
11:11
Speaker 1: from running against him. Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina
11:14
Speaker 1: launched an exploratory committee this week. He told Fox &
11:17
Speaker 1: Friends that after talking to Republican voters in the early states,
11:21
Speaker 1: he found people, quote, starving for an optimistic, positive message.
11:26
Speaker 1: I think we have some audio from some of those conversations.
11:37
Speaker 1: Why do Democrats keep shooting up our schools, churches, and concerts?
11:45
Speaker 1: And if the cops wasn't here, I would fight every
11:47
Speaker 1: fucking one of you right now.
11:48
Speaker 2: Every fucking one of.
11:50
Speaker 1: You.
11:52
Speaker 4: Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you.
11:54
Speaker 1: Sounds like Republican voters are hungry for an optimistic message, huh?
11:58
Speaker 2: There's one thing Republicans want.
12:00
Speaker 1: It's optimism.
12:01
Speaker 2: All you have to do is turn on Fox News
12:02
Speaker 2: and see that. It's Morning in America. Every day.
12:04
Speaker 1: Ugh. What effect, if any, do you think that Tim
12:09
Speaker 1: Scott will have on the Republican primary?
12:12
Speaker 2: The most likely impact that Tim Scott will have is
12:16
Speaker 2: that he could take a significant chunk of Nikki Haley's
12:19
Speaker 2: 4% of the vote.
12:23
Speaker 1: I mean, I think he might make it marginally more
12:26
Speaker 1: likely that Donald Trump will become the nominee at this point.
12:31
Speaker 1: So there was a South Carolina poll last week, Trump 41,
12:34
Speaker 1: DeSantis 20. Haley 18, Tim Scott 7, Mike Pence 5.
12:42
Speaker 1: And like, you got to imagine that Pence, I mean,
12:46
Speaker 1: you imagine that, well, Pence, Scott and Haley are all
12:49
Speaker 1: pulling from, you know, probably some Trump, but mostly DeSantis. And,
12:54
Speaker 1: you know, South Carolina has been fairly predictive of how
12:56
Speaker 1: the rest of the Republican nomination is going to go
12:58
Speaker 1: in the past. And like, if DeSantis is already having
13:03
Speaker 1: trouble catching Trump, he's already down to Trump. Now you
13:07
Speaker 1: split a whole bunch of other vote that could go
13:09
Speaker 1: to him among three people, Pence, Haley, and Scott, who
13:13
Speaker 1: aren't going to win the nomination. And you start seeing
13:16
Speaker 1: how Trump's just going to run away with it.
13:18
Speaker 4: Yeah.
13:18
Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say that every additional candidate
13:22
Speaker 2: that makes it to the Iowa caucus makes it more
13:26
Speaker 2: likely that Trump will be the nominee.
13:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
13:29
Speaker 2: I am skeptical that many of these yahoos will make
13:32
Speaker 2: it to the Iowa caucus. Um, Tim Scott most notable
13:36
Speaker 2: on that, although he does have a lot of money.
13:37
Speaker 2: I think he has $ 22 million in his Senate account
13:39
Speaker 2: that he could transfer over to a presidential campaign so
13:41
Speaker 2: he can hang around for a while. And Nikki Haley
13:44
Speaker 2: had a pretty good fundraising first quarter. I think she
13:46
Speaker 2: raised like $ 9 or $ 10 million. But will they actually
13:49
Speaker 2: get there when votes are cast? That's the real question.
13:53
Speaker 1: And the other problem is just none of these people
13:55
Speaker 1: have the talent to do it. They don't have the
13:58
Speaker 1: talent to do it, and there's just like a larger
14:00
Speaker 1: structural problem, which is that they're running in a primary...
14:04
Speaker 1: that took place like eight years ago with a Republican
14:08
Speaker 1: party that doesn't exist anymore. Like if, again, we've talked
14:11
Speaker 1: about this with Nikki Haley, but if Tim Scott was
14:14
Speaker 1: running in 2015, or maybe I would argue 2012, I'd
14:18
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, that's a guy to watch. I
14:20
Speaker 1: could see that happening. But like this Republican party these days,
14:23
Speaker 1: are you kidding me?
14:24
Speaker 2: And even 2012, let's not forget, Newt Gingrich almost became
14:27
Speaker 2: the nominee. Rick Santorum almost became the nominee. Michelle Bachman
14:31
Speaker 2: led for a while.
14:32
Speaker 1: It is- Yeah, maybe you have to go back to 2008.
14:35
Speaker 2: Like 1984 is what you need.
14:39
Speaker 1: And Tim Scott was asked this morning about whether he
14:43
Speaker 1: supports a national abortion ban. Now, this is a guy
14:46
Speaker 1: who already signed on to, he co-sponsored Lindsey Graham's national
14:50
Speaker 1: abortion ban at 15 weeks. But instead of just giving
14:53
Speaker 1: that answer, he gave this like just garbled answer. That
14:58
Speaker 1: ended with something about Janet Yellen.
15:00
Speaker 2: And a banking committee hearing.
15:02
Speaker 1: And a banking committee hearing. It started on abortion. It
15:04
Speaker 1: ended there. And he didn't really answer the question. I
15:06
Speaker 1: was like, oh, man, not ready for prime time.
15:10
Speaker 2: I mean, I just do not understand it. We worked
15:12
Speaker 2: in politics for a long time. Before you speak to
15:16
Speaker 2: the media, particularly on the day in which you announce
15:18
Speaker 2: your presidential exploratory campaign committee, you theoretically in the old
15:22
Speaker 2: days would sit down with your communications people. They would say,
15:25
Speaker 2: here are the questions you most likely to get asked.
15:27
Speaker 2: You want to try out some answers? Let's see what
15:28
Speaker 2: we think. That does not happen in the Republican Party anymore.
15:32
Speaker 2: This is like Nikki Haley when she got asked the
15:33
Speaker 2: Trump question and just also vomited up word salad. That
15:37
Speaker 2: was word salad from Tim Scott.
15:39
Speaker 1: It's mind-boggling.
15:41
Speaker 2: After the Wisconsin race, you know that is the question
15:43
Speaker 2: that is going to get asked. He's getting in the
15:45
Speaker 2: race on almost the day that Ron DeSantis is going
15:50
Speaker 2: to sign a six-week abortion ban in Florida. You know
15:53
Speaker 2: it's in the news.
15:54
Speaker 1: Come up with an answer.
15:55
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a good answer. It doesn't
15:56
Speaker 2: have to be the right answer. Frankly, for Republicans, it
15:59
Speaker 2: doesn't even have to be an honest answer. Just say
16:01
Speaker 2: some coherent words in a row so you actually seem
16:04
Speaker 2: like a competent human being that is beyond the pale
16:06
Speaker 2: for these people.
16:08
Speaker 1: Well, and I think it's a consequence of them being
16:11
Speaker 1: firmly ensconced in the safe space right-wing media bubble for
16:17
Speaker 1: many years now, where they only have to answer questions like,
16:20
Speaker 1: you know, Tucker Carlson asked Trump, like, Sir, tell me
16:22
Speaker 1: how wonderful you are, how great you are. Just go ahead.
16:25
Speaker 1: And then, like, lets him go on for three or
16:26
Speaker 1: four minutes. Like, I just, I don't, they're not practiced
16:30
Speaker 1: at answering real questions from real reporters. And that wasn't
16:35
Speaker 1: even a tough question. First of all, it's not like
16:37
Speaker 1: it was an issue that's not in the news that they,
16:39
Speaker 1: it was like, got your question. It's abortion. It's everywhere
16:41
Speaker 1: right now. And to not have an answer on that,
16:44
Speaker 1: it wasn't even like, hey, what do you think? National
16:47
Speaker 1: abortion ban? What do you think? Pretty simple question. Couldn't
16:50
Speaker 1: do it. Same thing. And DeSantis, only talks to Florida
16:53
Speaker 1: right-wing press. Nikki Haley, she's been out of practice. I mean,
16:56
Speaker 1: it's just, you know, none of these people can really
16:58
Speaker 1: face hard questions anymore. Speaking of campaign announcements, on Monday,
17:03
Speaker 1: Joe Biden made some unintentional news, his favorite kind, when
17:06
Speaker 1: he said this to Al Roker. I plan on running Al,
17:09
Speaker 1: but we're not prepared to announce it yet. A few
17:14
Speaker 1: thoughts on this. I feel like Joe Biden has given
17:15
Speaker 1: almost that exact answer before. He's used the word intend
17:19
Speaker 1: instead of planning on running.
17:21
Speaker 2: Right.
17:21
Speaker 1: So it's close. So I'm not quite sure why it
17:24
Speaker 1: got so much attention. Maybe just the media's bored. So
17:27
Speaker 1: they wanted to make some news. But stepping back from that,
17:30
Speaker 1: like what is going on here with Biden not just
17:34
Speaker 1: filing papers at this point? It seems like everyone around him,
17:37
Speaker 1: including him, has made up his mind. I know it
17:39
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like there's any doubt left that he's going
17:42
Speaker 1: to run for president again. So why not just file
17:46
Speaker 1: the papers?
17:47
Speaker 2: It's a great question. I think the reason the Al
17:49
Speaker 2: Roker answer got some attention is there has been a
17:53
Speaker 2: number of stories and a number of outlets in recent
17:56
Speaker 2: weeks raising questions about why President Biden hasn't announced yet.
18:00
Speaker 2: Because his team had previously indicated that they were eyeballing
18:03
Speaker 2: the similar timeline that President Obama used to announce his reelection,
18:06
Speaker 2: which is basically this week of 2011. So we have
18:10
Speaker 2: crossed that line.
18:11
Speaker 1: They've been staring at that calendar for a long time now.
18:14
Speaker 2: And they were never like, we're definitely doing it by
18:16
Speaker 2: this day or it's not happening. That was just sort
18:17
Speaker 2: of the common understanding. I think there are a couple
18:21
Speaker 2: of things going on here. One is I don't think
18:24
Speaker 2: President Biden is in any hurry to become a candidate again.
18:27
Speaker 2: That said, he's not running. He's clearly running. But I
18:29
Speaker 2: think he recognizes the Republicans are all sort of light
18:33
Speaker 2: themselves on fire in support of Donald Trump right now.
18:37
Speaker 2: some of Trump's opponents are sort of melting down before
18:39
Speaker 2: our eyes like Ron DeSantis. So just stay out of
18:41
Speaker 2: it and just be president, which is your comparative advantage
18:44
Speaker 2: right now with these people. You're kind of above the fray.
18:47
Speaker 1: Can I just ask about that? What is the real
18:49
Speaker 1: difference of Joe Biden? He does a two-minute video. I'm
18:55
Speaker 1: running for president again. It's a big day of coverage,
18:58
Speaker 1: maybe a day and a half, generously. And then he
19:01
Speaker 1: goes back to Showing that he's president, which is still
19:04
Speaker 1: that advantage. He's going, he's doing events. He's talking about
19:06
Speaker 1: the infrastructure bill. He's talking about the IRA, whatever else.
19:10
Speaker 1: He's going to Europe, doing whatever else he wants to do.
19:13
Speaker 1: I just don't know what the real difference is once
19:16
Speaker 1: he sort of crosses the Rubicon into candidate.
19:19
Speaker 2: There is no difference. The press is already treating him
19:21
Speaker 2: like he's running for president.
19:23
Speaker 5: Right.
19:23
Speaker 1: That's sort of.
19:24
Speaker 2: So this is, I think, the other reason here is... Yes,
19:29
Speaker 2: you could theoretically just file papers tomorrow and say, I'm
19:32
Speaker 2: going to do a formal announcement tour this summer or
19:37
Speaker 2: even this fall, you could say, if you want to
19:38
Speaker 2: kick it off. And that is essentially what Obama did.
19:41
Speaker 2: He filed papers in April and then a few weeks
19:44
Speaker 2: later did a couple rallies in the battleground states of Ohio, Virginia.
19:48
Speaker 2: Ohio was a battleground state back then, which is... is
19:50
Speaker 2: a nice old thing to remember. And so he could
19:54
Speaker 2: do that again. Now, the reason you would not just
19:56
Speaker 2: up and do that right away is you have to
19:59
Speaker 2: have all of your ducks in a row when you
20:02
Speaker 2: do that because this would be a big online fundraising
20:05
Speaker 2: day for you on the day you announce. It would
20:06
Speaker 2: be the first time you've hit your list online. to
20:09
Speaker 2: raise money for yourself in two and a half years.
20:12
Speaker 2: And so you, you want to have some, you want
20:16
Speaker 2: to have all of your infrastructure up. You want to
20:18
Speaker 2: be able to have some messaging done and a whole
20:22
Speaker 2: bunch of other stuff to be able to do that.
20:24
Speaker 2: And I think they're just still working on that. As
20:26
Speaker 2: far as I know, both from the public reporting we've
20:29
Speaker 2: read and just sort of the people we talked to
20:31
Speaker 2: is he has not yet picked a campaign manager for
20:34
Speaker 2: this campaign. Although I, my understanding is there's a, leading contender.
20:38
Speaker 2: It's been written about. But you sort of want your
20:41
Speaker 2: campaign manager, you want some staffing, you want to be
20:44
Speaker 2: all ready to be able to have some infrastructure to
20:47
Speaker 2: take in the money and the enthusiasm. People are going
20:51
Speaker 2: to say they want to volunteer, they're going to want
20:53
Speaker 2: to apply for jobs and all those things. You just
20:56
Speaker 2: kind of got to get that stuff ready. I don't
20:58
Speaker 2: think it matters whether he does it now or he
20:59
Speaker 2: does it next month or the month after that, but
21:01
Speaker 2: there is a point at which you are giving up
21:04
Speaker 2: some of the advantages of a too long and not
21:08
Speaker 2: using all of the head start you will have over
21:10
Speaker 2: your eventual opponent.
21:11
Speaker 1: And you will continue to get annoying stories in the
21:15
Speaker 1: lead up to that, which is like, is he really
21:17
Speaker 1: going to run? Is he having second thoughts? Which, you know,
21:20
Speaker 1: are not all that damaging, but probably annoying for the president.
21:24
Speaker 5: Yeah.
21:24
Speaker 2: I mean, the way he answers that question is to
21:26
Speaker 2: try to have it both ways, which is make it
21:28
Speaker 2: clear he's running and then kick off or forestall the
21:33
Speaker 2: official filing of paper slash announcement to a slightly later date.
21:37
Speaker 1: He's already starting to act like the party's nominee. He
21:39
Speaker 1: announced this week that he has chosen Chicago as the
21:42
Speaker 1: site of the 2024 Democratic Convention. Atlanta was the runner-up.
21:47
Speaker 1: Georgia's a swing state. Illinois is very much not. Why
21:50
Speaker 1: do you think he went with Chicago over Atlanta, and
21:52
Speaker 1: how much does this really matter at all?
21:54
Speaker 2: Okay, first question, John. Do you remember where the 2016
21:58
Speaker 2: Democratic Convention was?
22:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was there. It was in Philadelphia. You were
22:04
Speaker 1: not there. Yeah, it was.
22:07
Speaker 2: Did you come to Philadelphia? Oh, that was Cleveland where
22:11
Speaker 2: we did the podcast where I sat. I did the
22:13
Speaker 2: podcast walking around with you.
22:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I was in Philadelphia because I remember walking
22:18
Speaker 1: from the convention center back to the hotel, which was
22:21
Speaker 1: a long walk, and it was like 100 degrees out.
22:23
Speaker 1: And it was at night. I was sweating the whole day. But, okay,
22:27
Speaker 1: put that aside. We don't have to revisit that.
22:29
Speaker 2: We were all in that suite together. I do remember
22:32
Speaker 2: this now.
22:33
Speaker 1: I helped out with Obama's convention speech.
22:36
Speaker 2: How did we do in Pennsylvania in 2016?
22:39
Speaker 1: Famously not well.
22:40
Speaker 2: Where was the Democratic Convention in 2012?
22:43
Speaker 1: North Carolina. Didn't win that one either.
22:45
Speaker 2: There is not a great history of connection between how
22:48
Speaker 2: a candidate does in the state where their convention is located.
22:51
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't read too much into it. The reason
22:53
Speaker 2: why it's in Chicago is pretty simple. One, Chicago is
22:58
Speaker 2: a much logistically easier place to have a convention. It
23:00
Speaker 2: has lots of hotels downtown. They are nearby the arena
23:06
Speaker 2: where the speeches will be. There are a lot of
23:09
Speaker 2: union hotels, which is very important for Democrats. There is
23:12
Speaker 2: a Democratic governor in J.B. Pritzker, who is an experienced
23:16
Speaker 2: fundraiser who has pledged to help raise the money for
23:19
Speaker 2: the convention. Because one of the last things you want
23:21
Speaker 2: is to be in a situation where President Biden is
23:23
Speaker 2: forced to spend time raising money for the convention, as
23:26
Speaker 2: opposed to raising it from the business community and everywhere else.
23:29
Speaker 2: So this is purely a logistics decision, more anything else.
23:33
Speaker 2: And ultimately, that's probably what you want, because Republicans are
23:37
Speaker 2: going to attack wherever you do the convention, no matter what.
23:39
Speaker 2: And so you might as well just have a better
23:41
Speaker 2: convention that runs better, is easier, and a better experience
23:44
Speaker 2: for the attendees than trying to make some sort of
23:46
Speaker 2: political statement that will last basically barely through the press
23:49
Speaker 2: release when you announce the city.
23:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of the attendees that you want to
23:53
Speaker 1: have a good experience are reporters. And so you want
23:56
Speaker 1: them to have like an easy time getting hotels, having like,
24:00
Speaker 1: you know, plenty of studio, all that kind of stuff, right?
24:03
Speaker 1: So you want people, you want to get good coverage
24:05
Speaker 1: out of it. President Biden and Senate Democrats are currently
24:16
Speaker 1: having trouble confirming judges because of 89-year-old California Senator Dianne
24:21
Speaker 1: Feinstein's extended absence due to a bad case of shingles,
24:25
Speaker 1: which is preventing a lot of these nominees from even
24:28
Speaker 1: being voted out of the closely divided Judiciary Committee. She's
24:32
Speaker 1: on the Judiciary Committee. Noted Democratic kingmaker John Lovett made
24:36
Speaker 1: some news on Tuesday's pod when he called on her
24:39
Speaker 1: to resign. Lovett was quickly followed by a California Democrat
24:43
Speaker 1: with real power, Representative Ro Khanna Feinstein then released a
24:47
Speaker 1: statement saying she wouldn't resign, but would ask Chuck Schumer
24:50
Speaker 1: to temporarily replace her on the Judiciary Committee, though it
24:53
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like he can do that on his own.
24:57
Speaker 1: What happens now? Why do you think she's not just resigning?
25:00
Speaker 1: And what happens if she does?
25:02
Speaker 2: Well, I think she does not. She clearly does not
25:04
Speaker 2: want to resign. She's been under pressure to do that
25:07
Speaker 2: for a very long time, even dating back to whether
25:09
Speaker 2: she should run for reelection in twenty eighteen. So that's
25:12
Speaker 2: clearly something that she and people around her do not
25:14
Speaker 2: want to do. The problem with her proposed solution of
25:18
Speaker 2: a temporary replacement on the Judiciary Committee is it's almost
25:21
Speaker 2: impossible to execute. It's not a decision that Chuck Schumer
25:24
Speaker 2: or Dick Durbin, the chair of the Judiciary Committee, can
25:26
Speaker 2: make on their own. It has to be voted on
25:28
Speaker 2: by the Senate. And that requires either unanimous consent, which
25:32
Speaker 2: would require all 100 senators to agree, or If someone
25:36
Speaker 2: were to object, someone like a Ted Cruz or Josh
25:38
Speaker 2: Hawley or Tommy Tuberville or any other MAGA Republican, then
25:42
Speaker 2: you would need 60 votes to do it. Now, do
25:45
Speaker 2: we really think there are 10 Republican senators who want
25:47
Speaker 2: to make it easier for Joe Biden to confirm nominees? No,
25:50
Speaker 2: I think not.
25:52
Speaker 1: I mean. If we were on the other side of this,
25:56
Speaker 1: would we be wanting our Democratic senators to join in
25:58
Speaker 1: and let the Republicans confirm some judges? I sure wouldn't.
26:00
Speaker 2: No, we'd be using this platform right now to try
26:03
Speaker 2: to convince Democrats to not let that happen.
26:06
Speaker 1: I will just say, too, there's like a bunch of
26:08
Speaker 1: real irresponsible commentary online the last couple of weeks. It
26:13
Speaker 1: was like, Chuck Schumer, what's wrong with you? Replace her now, blah, blah, blah.
26:16
Speaker 1: And it's like, hey, everyone, fucking Google. No. Just Google
26:20
Speaker 1: the rules, you know, before you start going off about
26:24
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer. Yeah, no, it's going to be really tough.
26:26
Speaker 1: So if Republicans block it and then then it's sort
26:30
Speaker 1: of like the ball goes back into Feinstein's court because
26:33
Speaker 1: then it's like, all right, you tried to do a
26:34
Speaker 1: temporary replacement. You didn't get it. You're not back to Washington.
26:38
Speaker 1: And we have basically until one more year to confirm
26:42
Speaker 1: a lot of judges, which is extremely important if you've
26:45
Speaker 1: been following the news over the last several years. So
26:48
Speaker 1: then I wonder, you know, maybe the pressure on her
26:50
Speaker 1: to resign amps up again and she finally does. I
26:53
Speaker 1: don't know.
26:54
Speaker 2: And if she were to resign, then Gavin Newsom could
26:57
Speaker 2: replace her immediately, essentially, and someone gets sworn to get
27:00
Speaker 2: to it. Just to explain why this matters on judicial confirmation,
27:04
Speaker 2: it says, from 2019 to 2021, in the divided Senate,
27:11
Speaker 2: there was an even number of members on committees, but
27:13
Speaker 2: Democrats held the punitive chairmanship of those committees. But if
27:18
Speaker 2: there was a tie, a party-line vote within the committee,
27:21
Speaker 2: you would have to go to the floor to eat
27:23
Speaker 2: up floor time to get a judicial confirmation through. When
27:26
Speaker 2: we picked up that extra Senate seat, thanks to John
27:28
Speaker 2: Fetterman and Raphael Warnock, et cetera, in 2022, then now
27:33
Speaker 2: Democrats had an advantage. So party-line vote heads right to
27:36
Speaker 2: the floor. Without Dianne Feinstein present, we're right back to
27:41
Speaker 2: where we were before we got to 51 Senate votes.
27:44
Speaker 2: So you have to you have to address, you have
27:47
Speaker 2: to replace Dianne Feinstein too, or she has to return
27:49
Speaker 2: to the Senate to be able to push our nominees
27:51
Speaker 2: through as fast as possible.
27:53
Speaker 1: Now, I saw some people say that Ro Khanna called
27:56
Speaker 1: on her to resign partly because he is supporting Barbara
28:01
Speaker 1: Lee in the Senate race. And Gavin Newsom has promised
28:06
Speaker 1: that if Feinstein resigns, he will appoint a black woman
28:11
Speaker 1: to replace her. And Barbara Lee becomes the most obvious choice.
28:15
Speaker 1: She's longtime representative from the Bay Area in Congress. I
28:20
Speaker 1: find it hard to believe that Newsom would appoint someone
28:25
Speaker 1: to the seat who is in the middle of a
28:28
Speaker 1: competitive Senate race. So like the idea that Newsom would
28:32
Speaker 1: appoint either Barbara Lee or Katie Porter or Adam Schiff
28:37
Speaker 1: to a seat that they're all running to fill seems
28:41
Speaker 1: like it would be giving an advantage to one of
28:44
Speaker 1: the candidates in a race that the California voters are
28:47
Speaker 1: going to decide anyway? I don't know. What do you think?
28:49
Speaker 1: It just seems to me like, why wouldn't you select
28:52
Speaker 1: a caretaker for the seat who's not going to run
28:55
Speaker 1: to fill the whole thing, just to stay out of
28:57
Speaker 1: the race, like a caretaker like John Lovett? Yes.
29:01
Speaker 2: The most obvious choice would be John Lovett.
29:03
Speaker 1: The most obvious choice.
29:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, right. That is the standard way in which these
29:07
Speaker 2: things are often done.
29:08
Speaker 1: If there is.
29:09
Speaker 2: Already either an ongoing race or a likely race between
29:14
Speaker 2: two high-profile contenders. When Robert Byrd passed away, Joe Manchin
29:20
Speaker 2: appointed one of his own staffers who had pledged not
29:23
Speaker 2: to run again. Same thing happened after Ted Kennedy passed away.
29:28
Speaker 2: There's sort of a standard way in which this would happen.
29:30
Speaker 2: Joe Biden, the same thing happened in Delaware when Joe
29:32
Speaker 2: Biden became vice president. So that would be the most
29:35
Speaker 2: likely scenario. I think Ro Khanna is very incredibly smart.
29:40
Speaker 2: I think he's smart about the politics of this. The
29:41
Speaker 2: substance and the politics is that he has a good
29:44
Speaker 2: sense to do what John Lovett says. But I do
29:49
Speaker 2: not think this is some sort of grand sinister plan
29:51
Speaker 2: to get his candidate put in the Senate. He knows
29:54
Speaker 2: what Gavin was highly unlikely to do that.
29:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, last story. Republicans in Missouri aren't just
30:00
Speaker 1: trying to ban books anymore. They're trying to ban entire libraries.
30:04
Speaker 1: The House of Representatives passed a budget that eliminates all
30:06
Speaker 1: funding for the state's public libraries, $ 4. 5 million. Republicans in
30:11
Speaker 1: the Senate seem less enthused about defunding the state's libraries,
30:14
Speaker 1: but we shall see. Llano County, Texas is also deciding
30:17
Speaker 1: whether to shut down its public library system after a
30:19
Speaker 1: federal judge ruled that the county violated the Constitution by
30:23
Speaker 1: banning a dozen children's books. So if we can't ban
30:26
Speaker 1: our books, no one can read. So my question is,
30:31
Speaker 1: when do you think we'll start seeing book burnings at
30:33
Speaker 1: Trump rallies? When's this going to become like a major
30:35
Speaker 1: part of the Republican Party platform?
30:37
Speaker 2: You don't have to burn the books if you ban them.
30:39
Speaker 2: That's the brilliant part here. You know, it's banned books.
30:44
Speaker 1: It's really a sort of environmentally friendly kind of thing.
30:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, the Republicans do not want all the carbon
30:49
Speaker 2: emissions from burning books to affect the environment.
30:52
Speaker 1: We should thank them.
30:53
Speaker 2: We'll ban books. If we can't ban books, we'll ban libraries.
30:55
Speaker 2: If we can't ban libraries, we'll ban ink and paper.
30:57
Speaker 2: If we can't ban that, we'll just ban words, period.
30:59
Speaker 2: Just ban the alphabet. Solve all the problems.
31:02
Speaker 1: I mean, you had a great message box this week,
31:06
Speaker 1: even before I saw this news about Missouri, on why
31:08
Speaker 1: Republicans are now losing the culture wars and what Democrats
31:12
Speaker 1: should do about it. Want to tell us more about that?
31:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say the reaction to that piece was
31:16
Speaker 2: quite interesting. Lots of people were like, ha, I've been
31:19
Speaker 2: saying this forever. Other people were like, you're giving Democrats
31:21
Speaker 2: terrible advice, or this is insane. It's a real Rorschach
31:25
Speaker 2: test of confirmation bias for a lot of people out there.
31:28
Speaker 2: My main point in writing it is that political strategists, pundits,
31:33
Speaker 2: have kind of divided the issue environment into two types.
31:36
Speaker 2: Kitchen table economic issues, like Social Security, Medicare, taxes, jobs,
31:42
Speaker 2: and cultural issues, which is sort of everything else. abortion,
31:45
Speaker 2: LGBTQ rights, immigration, crime, anything that's not a, because no
31:50
Speaker 2: one has ever talked about abortion or civil rights at
31:53
Speaker 2: a kitchen table. So that's how you separate them. I
31:56
Speaker 2: think that is a false binary, a weird way of
31:58
Speaker 2: thinking about the politics, but that is how we sort
32:00
Speaker 2: of thought about it. And the conventional wisdom is kitchen
32:03
Speaker 2: table issues good for Democrats, cultural issues good for Republicans, right?
32:07
Speaker 2: Cultural issues incite the Republican base, divide our base. And
32:09
Speaker 2: I think that for some period of time in life,
32:11
Speaker 2: that was kind of sort of true. But it's not
32:14
Speaker 2: true anymore. And it's largely not true because Dobbs changed
32:16
Speaker 2: the world. It changed how people think. As we talked
32:19
Speaker 2: about this last week, I believe, but Celinda Lake, the
32:22
Speaker 2: Democratic pollster, has made the point that the country has
32:23
Speaker 2: become 10 to 15 points more pro-choice since Dobbs. Dobbs
32:27
Speaker 2: has shown the real-world dangers of Republican extremism and that
32:32
Speaker 2: if it can happen to abortion, it can happen to
32:34
Speaker 2: marriage equality, it can happen to civil rights, book bans,
32:37
Speaker 2: all these other things. And the Democrats should not be
32:41
Speaker 2: afraid of these issues. We should not dodge the questions.
32:44
Speaker 2: If you're talking about we should feel comfortable to take
32:46
Speaker 2: them on. But, and this is the important but, is
32:49
Speaker 2: we have to recognize that we are winning these issues
32:53
Speaker 2: because we hold the majority position. So we need to
32:56
Speaker 2: talk about them in broadly appealing ways that people understand.
33:00
Speaker 2: And that begins with focusing on the Republican position, the
33:03
Speaker 2: dangers of their extremism. And We also have to recognize
33:06
Speaker 2: that not all of these quote-unquote cultural issues are the same. Abortion,
33:11
Speaker 2: I think we have a very, very strong hand, certainly
33:13
Speaker 2: on abortion, on just the entire suite of reproductive freedom
33:18
Speaker 2: issues like banning contraception, all these other insane things Republicans
33:20
Speaker 2: want to do. The polling shows we are actually much
33:23
Speaker 2: stronger in pushing back on the Republican anti-trans laws and
33:29
Speaker 2: rhetoric than most Democrats think. We actually hold majority positions
33:32
Speaker 2: on a lot of them if we take them on
33:34
Speaker 2: and frame them on factually correct terms and on our terms.
33:38
Speaker 2: But we have a lot of work to do on
33:40
Speaker 2: some other issues. So winning culture war is not permission
33:42
Speaker 2: to say whatever you want about whatever issue you want.
33:45
Speaker 2: And it's certainly not an argument for ignoring the economy,
33:48
Speaker 2: because you have to do both. Because the necessity of
33:50
Speaker 2: our political coalition is to reach out to voters concerned
33:55
Speaker 2: about Republican extremism, voters deeply concerned about life or death
33:59
Speaker 2: issues like abortion bans, and voters whose the central issue
34:05
Speaker 2: in their life is economic insecurity, who are very concerned
34:08
Speaker 2: about whether they're going to keep their job, whether they're
34:09
Speaker 2: going to be able to send their kids to college.
34:11
Speaker 2: And we're going to have to do both. Republicans can
34:12
Speaker 2: win in a lot of states by doing one. We
34:14
Speaker 2: have to do both. And we are strongest when we
34:16
Speaker 2: do them both aggressively and proudly and not sort of
34:20
Speaker 2: with one hand tied behind our back like we have
34:22
Speaker 2: done on abortion in this country for decades.
34:26
Speaker 4: Yeah.
34:26
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that your point about The reason
34:29
Speaker 1: it looks like we're winning the culture wars right now
34:31
Speaker 1: is because we are on the side of the majority
34:35
Speaker 1: position in the country. And part of this is Republicans
34:39
Speaker 1: have taken such extreme positions on so many different issues
34:43
Speaker 1: across the board. We were on the side for a
34:48
Speaker 1: long time, I think, on economic issues. you know, Republicans
34:51
Speaker 1: were against any kind of higher taxes on rich people,
34:54
Speaker 1: against any kind of regulations to protect people, protect workers.
34:59
Speaker 1: And so that was, you know, that was an unpopular
35:02
Speaker 1: position for them. And then on the so-called cultural issues,
35:06
Speaker 1: it was a little more divided, partly because of the
35:08
Speaker 1: position that the Republican Party had taken and partly because
35:11
Speaker 1: the country wasn't necessarily there yet. Now, the country has
35:17
Speaker 1: moved on a lot of these social and cultural issues,
35:19
Speaker 1: but also, just the extreme, extreme positions Republicans have taken.
35:24
Speaker 1: And in the case of Dobbs, now the court has
35:27
Speaker 1: taken away rights that people have had for a long time.
35:30
Speaker 1: And so that's affecting the whole, the political environment as well.
35:35
Speaker 1: So I do think you're right. Like you can't, you
35:36
Speaker 1: can't lump all of these issues together. We do because
35:39
Speaker 1: it's just like, it's shorthand on the culture issues, but
35:41
Speaker 1: like each issue is very different. And each issue depends
35:46
Speaker 1: on both the position that the Republican party has taken
35:48
Speaker 1: and in some of the more extreme positions and where
35:51
Speaker 1: Democrats are and, of course, where the country is. And
35:54
Speaker 1: I do think that like part of the challenge for
35:56
Speaker 1: Democrats is making sure that we highlight the most extreme
36:01
Speaker 1: positions that Republicans have taken places, right? Like, you know,
36:04
Speaker 1: Republicans in Congress aren't banning entire libraries yet, but they
36:08
Speaker 1: should be made to answer for the Republicans in Missouri
36:10
Speaker 1: who are. Every Republican should be made to answer for
36:13
Speaker 1: some of these extreme positions on abortions. that Republicans are
36:17
Speaker 1: taking in state houses across the country and judges are deciding,
36:21
Speaker 1: cases that judges are deciding across the country. And so
36:23
Speaker 1: we have to continually bring up the most extreme examples
36:28
Speaker 1: of what Republicans are doing, not just to paint the
36:30
Speaker 1: whole party like that because it's good politics, but because
36:33
Speaker 1: history has shown that this is where Republicans end up anyway.
36:36
Speaker 1: Some yahoo in a state house takes an extreme position
36:39
Speaker 1: in like South Carolina saying that there should be the
36:41
Speaker 1: death penalty for women who get abortions And it seems like, oh,
36:45
Speaker 1: that's only two extreme Republicans in South Carolina that are
36:48
Speaker 1: doing that right now. And, you know, a couple of
36:50
Speaker 1: years from now, suddenly it becomes the majority position of
36:52
Speaker 1: the party.
36:53
Speaker 3: Right.
36:53
Speaker 1: So I think it's very important for Democrats to continue
36:56
Speaker 1: to highlight this extremism. And I think this whole culture
36:58
Speaker 1: war thing is really about Republicans going off the deep
37:02
Speaker 1: end as a party more than it is just about
37:05
Speaker 1: where the Democratic Party is.
37:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. And your point about taking. the positions of some
37:11
Speaker 2: Republicans in some parts of the country and making the
37:13
Speaker 2: entire party answer for them is very important because for two,
37:16
Speaker 2: there are politics to it, but also if we put
37:19
Speaker 2: political pressure on them and they walk away from those,
37:21
Speaker 2: that's a win for the world too. Like take the
37:23
Speaker 2: law in Kansas past to allow the inspection of genitals
37:28
Speaker 2: before kids can participate in youth sports. Look, I haven't
37:32
Speaker 2: seen a poll on that, but I'm going to take
37:33
Speaker 2: a guess. People are not for that.
37:36
Speaker 1: Not popular.
37:36
Speaker 2: Every Republican should have to answer for it.
37:37
Speaker 1: It's not popular.
37:39
Speaker 4: Yeah.
37:40
Speaker 1: OK, when we come back, I will talk to Michigan
37:43
Speaker 1: Governor Gretchen Whitmer about what national Democrats can learn from Michigan.
37:56
Speaker 1: Joining us now is the governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer. Governor,
37:59
Speaker 1: welcome to Pod Save America.
38:00
Speaker 5: I'm glad to be with you.
38:02
Speaker 1: So this morning you signed a major gun reform package
38:05
Speaker 1: of 11 bills. that includes universal background checks, red flag laws,
38:10
Speaker 1: and safe storage requirements. I know the short answer to
38:13
Speaker 1: how you got it done is the newly Democratic legislature,
38:17
Speaker 1: but I'm curious about how you've seen the politics of
38:20
Speaker 1: gun safety change over the course of your career, especially
38:24
Speaker 1: in a state like Michigan where there are a lot
38:26
Speaker 1: of gun owners. Alyssa Slotkin is putting gun safety at
38:29
Speaker 1: the center of her Senate campaign. Is this an issue
38:31
Speaker 1: Democrats should no longer be afraid to run on?
38:34
Speaker 5: A hundred percent.
38:35
Speaker 4: You know, Jen, when I started a couple of decades ago,
38:38
Speaker 4: I was so old when I say it, but guns
38:41
Speaker 4: were for a long time, the third rail, right? You
38:43
Speaker 4: didn't want to touch it. It was too dangerous, too complicated.
38:46
Speaker 4: And yet we've seen like abortion, right? The conversation evolved
38:50
Speaker 4: where people expect us to be conversant and have a
38:54
Speaker 4: plan to make them safer or protect their rights when
38:58
Speaker 4: it comes to abortion. And I think we have to
39:00
Speaker 4: be bold. When I first got into politics, if you'd
39:04
Speaker 4: have told me I'd run for governor, I would have
39:06
Speaker 4: thought you were nuts. But if you'd told me on
39:08
Speaker 4: top of it that I would be running on some
39:10
Speaker 4: common sense gun safety policies, as well as protecting abortion rights,
39:16
Speaker 4: I wouldn't have believed it. And yet that's exactly what
39:18
Speaker 4: we did. And we won overwhelmingly and flipped both chambers
39:21
Speaker 4: of our legislature. And now it's time for us to
39:23
Speaker 4: do exactly what we told people we were going to do.
39:26
Speaker 1: You and the Democratic legislature have accomplished so much so fast.
39:30
Speaker 1: in the first hundred days of your second term. Republicans
39:33
Speaker 1: in Michigan are predictably predicting a backlash in the next election.
39:37
Speaker 1: Why are they wrong?
39:39
Speaker 4: Well, because, you know, they don't have an alternative vision, right?
39:43
Speaker 4: We've restored workers' rights. We've expanded the civil rights for
39:46
Speaker 4: the LGBTQ community. We have codified and repealed a zombie
39:51
Speaker 4: law that would threaten women's reproductive rights. I mean, these
39:55
Speaker 4: are the things that we're doing. We ran on these.
39:57
Speaker 4: The public told us they wanted us to take action.
40:00
Speaker 4: What you hear out of the other side is just
40:02
Speaker 4: criticism of it, not an alternative view, not ideas of
40:05
Speaker 4: how we can address some of the issues like keeping
40:08
Speaker 4: kids safe in schools or parishioners safe in church or
40:11
Speaker 4: shoppers safe in a grocery store. They just want to
40:14
Speaker 4: keep doing the same old thing. And I think that's
40:16
Speaker 4: a lousy vision for electoral success.
40:20
Speaker 5: And that's why I think they're wrong.
40:22
Speaker 1: What's on the agenda for the next 100 days?
40:24
Speaker 4: Oh, we got a lot to do. So, you know,
40:26
Speaker 4: we got to get the budget done. I've introduced a
40:28
Speaker 4: budget a couple months ago. The legislature has it. They're
40:31
Speaker 4: holding hearings. But delivering on that. I mean, they're long
40:35
Speaker 4: overdue investments, whether it's fixing the damn roads or it is...
40:40
Speaker 4: making sure that we get the educational outcomes for our
40:42
Speaker 4: kids that we need by greater investment in individualized tutoring
40:46
Speaker 4: and universal four-year-old preschool. This is front and center for
40:51
Speaker 4: the next line. But we've got a lot of work
40:53
Speaker 4: I think we can do around climate and eliminating our
40:56
Speaker 4: carbon footprint. I built a plan last term, and now
40:59
Speaker 4: I've got a legislature that will actually help me codify it.
41:02
Speaker 4: So that's front and center as well.
41:05
Speaker 1: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis came to Michigan last week and
41:08
Speaker 1: was introduced by a Republican state rep who described Michigan
41:12
Speaker 1: as the anti-Florida. Would you agree with that characterization?
41:17
Speaker 5: I thought it was funny. I'm like, okay.
41:19
Speaker 4: I mean, in Florida, they're taking women's rights away. They're
41:22
Speaker 4: taking books out of schools. They're targeting the LGBTQ community.
41:26
Speaker 4: They're taking, you know, accurate teaching of history.
41:29
Speaker 5: Out of schools.
41:30
Speaker 4: I mean, if being not that is supposed to be
41:34
Speaker 4: an insult, I mean, I'll take that every single day.
41:36
Speaker 5: In Michigan... We're going another direction. We're expanding rights. We're
41:39
Speaker 5: codifying rights.
41:40
Speaker 4: We're ensuring that every person, no matter who you are
41:43
Speaker 4: or how you identify, is respected and protected under the law.
41:47
Speaker 4: So I think that there are a whole lot more
41:49
Speaker 4: freedoms in Michigan. And also, we got two peninsulas. They
41:53
Speaker 4: only got one.
41:55
Speaker 3: That's good.
41:56
Speaker 1: That's good. So the Republican Party has become extreme everywhere,
41:59
Speaker 1: particularly in Michigan. What lessons have you learned over the
42:02
Speaker 1: last four years about how to deal with this extremism?
42:06
Speaker 1: And what advice would you give to Democrats in states
42:09
Speaker 1: where MAGA Republicans still hold power about how to win?
42:14
Speaker 4: It's really stunning and saddening and scary, frankly, when you
42:18
Speaker 4: think about one of the kind of core platforms of
42:24
Speaker 4: the Republican Party right now, at least in Michigan, is
42:26
Speaker 4: to stoke violent rhetoric and to undermine our confidence in
42:30
Speaker 4: our democratic institutions, to continue to deny the outcome of
42:34
Speaker 4: a free and fair election from three years ago.
42:38
Speaker 5: That is still happening.
42:39
Speaker 4: The new chair of the Republican Party here is so
42:42
Speaker 4: far out there, she says, Beyonce and yoga are satanic.
42:46
Speaker 5: I mean, that's who's.
42:48
Speaker 4: The top Republican in Michigan right now. And I think
42:51
Speaker 4: it also is why we're seeing so much crossover, right,
42:54
Speaker 4: from people who are more traditional Republicans or are more
42:57
Speaker 4: middle of the road, maybe economically more conservative, but more
43:02
Speaker 4: liberal-minded socially coming over. And I think that's a part
43:06
Speaker 4: of why we've had such great overwhelming success beyond the
43:09
Speaker 4: usual Democratic lines here in Michigan. But I don't think
43:13
Speaker 4: we should make any assumptions that it's going to fix
43:16
Speaker 4: itself or it's going to get better. I think we've
43:18
Speaker 4: got to keep speaking truth to power. Every state's different,
43:21
Speaker 4: so I'm always reticent to subscribe how another governor might
43:25
Speaker 4: conduct themselves because they've got different tools at their disposal.
43:29
Speaker 5: But here in Michigan, I can tell you, um, Being blunt,
43:33
Speaker 5: being clear, listening.
43:35
Speaker 4: It's a unique thing in politics, but listening, I think,
43:38
Speaker 4: is the strongest, most important thing any elected official or
43:42
Speaker 4: aspiring elected official can do.
43:44
Speaker 1: There's been this debate among some Democrats about how the
43:47
Speaker 1: party should respond to these right-wing culture wars. Do you
43:50
Speaker 1: engage or do you focus on economic issues? You've done both.
43:54
Speaker 1: You focused on jobs, infrastructure, affordable housing, but also, as
43:57
Speaker 1: we talked about, protecting abortion access and expanding LGBTQ rights.
44:02
Speaker 1: What do pundits get wrong about this debate?
44:05
Speaker 4: But, you know, toward the end of the campaign, I'd
44:07
Speaker 4: frequently get the question, you know, are you talking too
44:10
Speaker 4: much about abortion? Shouldn't you be talking more about the economy? And,
44:14
Speaker 4: you know, I'm a pretty disciplined communicator, John, and I've
44:18
Speaker 4: got a long fuse.
44:19
Speaker 5: Like, I don't get frustrated easily. I got thick skin.
44:22
Speaker 5: But I kind of got tired of that question.
44:24
Speaker 4: And I said, listen, if you don't think abortion is
44:27
Speaker 4: about the economy, you probably don't have a uterus or
44:30
Speaker 4: know someone who does. Because the most important economic decision
44:34
Speaker 4: a woman will make in the course of her lifetime
44:37
Speaker 4: is when and whether to have a child. And so
44:40
Speaker 4: if you're talking about jobs or affordable housing or clean
44:42
Speaker 4: drinking water, talking about fundamental rights to make your own
44:45
Speaker 4: decision about your body and whether or not to start
44:47
Speaker 4: a family or having protections in your workplace or in
44:51
Speaker 4: your home, these are economic issues. And so I always
44:56
Speaker 4: reject that tendency to bifurcate social issues versus economic issues.
45:00
Speaker 5: They are intertwined. We are human beings.
45:03
Speaker 4: And all of these facets impact us at the dinner
45:06
Speaker 4: table and in our lives every day. And that's why
45:09
Speaker 4: we shouldn't shy and we shouldn't pick. We got to
45:11
Speaker 4: talk about both and we got to be bold.
45:13
Speaker 1: Speaking of abortion access, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals
45:15
Speaker 1: just ruled that Mifepristone can remain on the market, but
45:19
Speaker 1: they heavily restricted the drug, including blocking its use beyond
45:22
Speaker 1: seven weeks of pregnancy and blocking retail pharmacies from dispensing
45:25
Speaker 1: the drug. The Supreme Court will obviously get involved here.
45:28
Speaker 1: But in the meantime... What steps are you considering to
45:31
Speaker 1: help protect access to abortion medication in Michigan?
45:36
Speaker 4: Well, we've done a number of things. Going back to
45:39
Speaker 4: before the Dobbs draft even came out, I had filed
45:43
Speaker 4: a lawsuit because I knew with the death of Justice
45:45
Speaker 4: Ginsburg that this was a very real threat. We were
45:49
Speaker 4: successful in amending our Constitution. There was a lot of
45:51
Speaker 4: things that went into that. But I'm grateful to say
45:54
Speaker 4: here in Michigan, we overwhelmingly embraced abortion rights and expect
45:57
Speaker 4: them to be codified. But Michigan was a party to
46:00
Speaker 4: the Washington lawsuit. We're obviously in the morass of these
46:05
Speaker 4: two dueling outcomes. And so one of the things we
46:09
Speaker 4: did early on was talk to all of our insurers
46:11
Speaker 4: and make sure that there was not going to be
46:12
Speaker 4: any disruption in coverage for birth control and Miffy-Pristone. I
46:19
Speaker 4: think that a number of states are stockpiling. That's something
46:21
Speaker 4: that we are looking at, as well as a number
46:24
Speaker 4: of other possibilities. I think part of it is that
46:28
Speaker 4: we've got to use every single tool that we can
46:30
Speaker 4: and every state's different. And while they promised this was
46:32
Speaker 4: going to be left to the states, very clearly, that's
46:35
Speaker 4: not their intent at all. It is to eliminate this right.
46:38
Speaker 4: And that's why every person in a position of authority
46:42
Speaker 4: needs to use every tool at their disposal to continue
46:46
Speaker 4: to provide this access.
46:49
Speaker 1: You've answered plenty of questions about your own future around 2024.
46:54
Speaker 1: So I will not ask you one of those again.
46:56
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you.
46:58
Speaker 1: Because I know what your answer is going to be.
47:00
Speaker 1: But what do you think Joe Biden's biggest challenge will
47:03
Speaker 1: be in 2024?
47:04
Speaker 4: You know, I think a challenge in politics, and it's
47:08
Speaker 4: not unique to the president, but a challenge in politics is,
47:12
Speaker 4: you know, telling people the story of what you've actually
47:15
Speaker 4: gotten accomplished, cannot assume that it's going to get covered,
47:18
Speaker 4: the outcomes of the IRA, you know, the infrastructure bill.
47:21
Speaker 4: I mean, They've got an extraordinary amount of work done
47:26
Speaker 4: that will make people's lives better, that will shore up
47:28
Speaker 4: the American economy, will make sure that we don't have
47:31
Speaker 4: to worry on supply chains and other nations because we
47:34
Speaker 4: start doing this cutting-edge manufacturing again in this country, rebuilding
47:38
Speaker 4: this country.
47:38
Speaker 5: I mean, he's gotten a lot done.
47:40
Speaker 4: I think it's going to be telling the story and
47:43
Speaker 4: cutting through a lot of the noise because there's just
47:45
Speaker 4: so much noise and so much misinformation.
47:48
Speaker 5: So I think that communicating that message is going to
47:50
Speaker 5: be the biggest challenge.
47:52
Speaker 1: Last question. It's the first 100 days of your final
47:55
Speaker 1: term as governor. Have you thought about what you want
47:58
Speaker 1: your legacy to be?
47:59
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'm really, really pleased that we've done
48:02
Speaker 4: a lot of historic things, just even in this 100 days.
48:06
Speaker 4: I was able to appoint the first Black woman to
48:08
Speaker 4: the Michigan Supreme Court. We have codified women's rights. We've
48:12
Speaker 4: expanded civil rights for the LGBTQ community and expanded.
48:16
Speaker 5: Workers' rights.
48:18
Speaker 4: I think at the end of the day, The most
48:20
Speaker 4: important thing to the Michigan economy is continuing to invest
48:25
Speaker 4: in our workforce from our children to upskilling our adult
48:28
Speaker 4: population and making sure that Michigan continues to be the
48:31
Speaker 4: center of the future of mobility and innovation. That's something
48:36
Speaker 4: that I spend a lot of my energy and time
48:38
Speaker 4: on because at the end of the day, whether or
48:40
Speaker 4: not people can get a good paying job and take
48:43
Speaker 4: care of their families and live a high quality life
48:45
Speaker 4: is the most important thing any governor can focus on.
48:49
Speaker 1: Governor Whitmer, an impressive 100 days in your second term.
48:53
Speaker 1: And it's nice to have Michigan as a real bright
48:56
Speaker 1: spot for Democrats across the country. So thank you. And
48:59
Speaker 1: thank you for joining the Pod Save America.
49:01
Speaker 4: I look forward to seeing you. And I know we'll
49:02
Speaker 4: be hosting the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.
49:06
Speaker 1: Can't wait.
49:06
Speaker 5: In the Midwest. We're thrilled. So, yes, I was working
49:09
Speaker 5: with J.B.
49:09
Speaker 4: And my Democratic governor colleagues here in the Midwest. And
49:12
Speaker 4: we are we're thrilled because all roads to the White
49:15
Speaker 4: House go through this part of the country.
49:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to be in Chicago for that. Okay, well,
49:19
Speaker 1: we will... talk to you soon. Take care.
49:21
Speaker 5: All right.
49:21
Speaker 1: Bye, John. Thanks to Governor Whitmer for joining us today.
49:29
Speaker 1: Everyone have a great weekend. We'll talk to you next week.
49:31
Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
49:36
Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
49:39
Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
49:43
Speaker 1: Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed
49:46
Speaker 1: and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis
49:50
Speaker 1: sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz,
49:52
Speaker 1: Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.
49:56
Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
49:59
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50:03
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