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Enhanced Games (2024) - Performance Enhancement in Sports · The Joe Rogan Recap

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  Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're diving deep into a
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  recent Joe Rogan Experience episode featuring Doctor Ayon
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  Tuzak, president of the Enhanced Games and Christian Anger Mayor,
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  the Co founder. Yeah, and our mission today
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  really is to unpack the core ideas behind these enhanced
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  games. You know, what sparked them?
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  What are they actually trying to achieve?
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  Right, we'll look at the problems they see with the
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  current Olympic system and the solutions they're putting
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  forward. And we'll also touch on some of
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  the, well, really interesting tangents.
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  They went off on things like performance enhancement in other
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  areas, not just sports. Oh yeah, and the science of
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  like, risk assessment with substances and even that whole
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  tricky issue of transgender athletes and sport should be
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  some real aha moments. I.
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  Think definitely so. OK, let's start with the
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  beginning, the genesis of the enhanced games.
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  It really sounds like it came from, well, just being
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  disillusioned with the Olympics, right?
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  Yeah, that seems to be the core of it.
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  They threw out some stats early on that were pretty striking,
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  like 44% of Olympians admitting to using banned substances.
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  Wow, 44%. That's, that's huge.
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  See, it kind of makes you wonder about the whole system, doesn't
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  it? It really does.
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  It suggests maybe that the pressure to win is just, you
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  know, pushing people beyond what the current rules allow.
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  And then there's the money. The average US Olympian making
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  around $30,000 a year. Yeah, put that next to the
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  billions the Olympics generate as an event.
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  You can see why they feel the athletes who are the main draw
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  really aren't getting a fair slice of the pie.
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  Exactly. They painted the Olympics as
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  this like massive financial entity where the actual
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  performers, the athletes, see very little direct benefit from
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  all that revenue. You know the IO, He doesn't pay
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  them directly. They rely on sponsors or their
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  national groups, right? Right.
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  And the Enhanced Games founders look at that and say, well, that
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  structure just doesn't support the athletes properly.
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  So this whole enhanced games idea is basically starting over
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  a third Olympiad, they called it.
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  Yeah, built from the ground up, but this time openly embracing
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  science and, you know, technology.
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  Like, let's see what's possible. It's a.
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  Fundamental rethink of competition.
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  And a big part of that is ditching the nationalism.
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  They want the focus on individual human potential.
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  Who's the fastest? Who's the strongest?
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  Period, not what flag they're under.
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  They brought up the Eurovision Song Contest, how political that
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  gets as a contrast. Which is interesting, yeah,
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  because national pride is so baked into the Olympics, they're
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  trying to consciously uncouple that.
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  OK, so let's move to the, let's be honest, the most
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  controversial bit. Yeah, performance enhancement.
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  They were pretty upfront about it.
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  Oh. Yeah, totally.
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  They didn't shy away from saying, look, this stuff is
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  already widely used, even if it's hidden.
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  They mentioned Icarus, the Russian doping scandal.
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  We're right. Huge examples of how prevalent
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  it is, sometimes even state sponsored.
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  And it's not just the absolute elite, is it?
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  Those stats, they gave 6.3% of men in the West having used
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  anabolic steroids. And 75% of regular gym goers
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  being interested, that shows, you know, a much broader
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  interest or use than maybe people realize.
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  And they made that key distinction between illegal and
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  band. Exactly like things WADA bands,
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  TRT, DHEA are often perfectly legal, even FDA approved
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  prescription meds. That's a crucial point.
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  And the tainted supplement issue, yeah, that sounds really
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  worrying. Yeah, 25% of stuff from like GNC
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  potentially having banned substances.
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  That's not even sketchy online sources.
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  And manufacturing screw ups leading to contamination, like
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  that Chinese swimmer thing TMZ reported on.
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  It's a minefield. It really makes you question the
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  whole anti doping setup doesn't it?
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  We've seen sandals before. Tour de France sprinting records
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  getting wiped. And the current measures like
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  USADA in the UFC, the IV bands, they seem focused on catching
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  rule Breakers maybe more than overall health.
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  That's the argument the enhanced games people make.
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  They want to flip that focus on health testing first.
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  So less peeing in cups, more heart screenings, Mr. is blood
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  work. Pretty much the idea is to make
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  sure the athletes are actually healthy enough to compete,
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  regardless of what they might be using.
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  And they're going for transparency, too.
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  Athletes can just say what they're on.
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  Yeah, that's a big part of it. Be open about it.
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  The thinking is if we know the context, we can understand the
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  performance better. It changes how you see the
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  records. And underpinning it all is that
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  idea of, like bodily autonomy, adults making informed choices.
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  Right, it's about self determination basically.
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  They compared it to the shift in the Olympics from amateurs to
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  pros. Yeah, like this is the next
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  step. First amateur, then pro, now
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  maybe enhanced unleashed superhumans as they put it.
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  And the money is serious, $1,000,000 prizes for breaking
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  big world records. Which directly tackles that
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  financial struggle many Olympians face.
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  So who competes? Is it only enhanced athletes?
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  No, that's key. They're saying natural athletes,
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  the genetic lottery winners, are welcome to compete side by side.
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  I could be fascinated. Different approaches going head
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  to head. They use the Apollo machine
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  analogy, pushing human limits with science.
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  I remember Rogan maybe pushing back a bit on that specific
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  analogy. Yeah, there was some back and
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  forth, but general agreement that pushing boundaries and
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  breaking records is historically significant.
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  And it's not like PEDs and sport are new.
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  Ben Johnson in 88. Carl Lewis.
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  Bruce Jenner even admitted past use.
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  It's been around a long time. And the athlete interest seems
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  real. Over 1000 applications for that
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  Ridley Scott documentary casting call.
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  Yeah, that suggests there's definitely an appetite for this
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  kind of thing among athletes. And they said the feedback,
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  apart from the Olympic establishment obviously, has
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  been surprisingly positive. Mostly, yeah, which might show,
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  you know, a bit of a shift in how people view the whole anti
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  doping thing. They talked about MMA physiques
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  changing after you saw it came in.
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  And how pre fight testing becomes this sort of
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  intelligence test knowing the half lives of substances.
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  It all feeds into their critique of the IOC too, right?
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  The self electing board? Lack of accountability.
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  Yeah, they definitely raise questions about the governance
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  of traditional sports bodies. OK, So what sports are we
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  actually going to see at these games?
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  They're starting with five core ones, track, swimming, combat,
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  so boxing and MMA, gymnastics and strength sports.
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  Why those seems strategic? High impact for TV and social
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  media, but relatively low setup costs compared to, say, building
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  a bobsled track. Right.
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  Interesting they're leaving out wrestling even with its Olympic
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  history. Yeah, they said it's more niche
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  now, viewership declining. So it sounds like business sense
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  is playing a big part in the choices too.
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  And they plan to hold them annually.
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  Yeah, more chances for athletes to compete, beat and earn,
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  unlike the four year Olympic cycle.
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  OK, combat sports with enhancements.
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  That raises some ethical flags for people, surely.
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  It does, but their argument is well, boxing is already about
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  hurting someone. Is adding enhancement
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  fundamentally different? It's a provocative question.
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  And they even suggested enhancements could improve
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  safety, faster recovery, more resilience.
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  Yeah, potentially someone, I think anger, Brier mentioned
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  feeling younger or recovering quicker with certain.
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  Things so they stress it has to be under proper for supervision
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  right? Not bro science.
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  Absolutely high quality clinical and scientific oversight.
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  They mentioned their scientific Advisory Board, people from
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  FIFA, George Church from Harvard, trying to give it that
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  legitimacy. OK, stepping back from just
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  sports, what about the wider picture?
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  Societal implications. Well one angle is anti ageing
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  research. Could studying these compounds
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  lead to breakthroughs there? They mentioned RFK Junior's
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  vitality sort of anecdotally. And challenging the idea that
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  enhancement is just vanity. Right, pointing out actual
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  medical uses for things like steroids and older people,
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  muscle loss, osteoporosis that get ignored because of the
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  stigma. It bumps up against how we
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  define medicine, doesn't it? Treatment versus prevention
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  versus enhancement. And exactly like Provigil for
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  narcolepsy, but then people use it off label for focus.
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  Where do you draw the line? And nootropics like Modafinil,
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  Societal resistance. Even with some research backing,
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  Edgar Meyer shared his own experience.
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  There, which leads to that whole conversation about risk.
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  Professor David Nuts study. Oh yeah, the one ranking alcohol
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  is the most harmful drug overall.
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  That always gets people thinking.
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  It does. And anger.
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  Meyer talked about not drinking alcohol but having positive
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  psychedelic experiences, sort of challenging norms based on data.
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  The history of psychedelic prohibition came up too, how it
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  might have been political and held back medical research.
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  Definitely mentioning Map's research, FDA looking into it.
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  The landscape is shifting there. Just like with cannabis, right?
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  State legalization versus federal scheduling.
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  Lots of contradictions. Though they were careful to
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  differentiate cannabis and psychedelics, Psychedelics
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  having this history of like structured intentional use, not
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  just recreational. Different effects on the brain,
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  different risk profiles according to NUTS study.
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  And they warned about mixing substances.
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  That's often where bad experiences happened.
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  What up micro dosing? They were pretty cautious that
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  there's not much solid large scale proof of benefits yet and
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  maybe even some heart risks. Needs more or proper science?
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  It's like creatine basically used to be seen as this crazy
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  steroid. And now it's totally mainstream,
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  proven safe and effective for most people.
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  Perceptions change with data. So the future for the enhanced
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  games, is it actually going to happen?
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  Is it funded? Seems like it.
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  They've got venture capital funding for at least three
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  years. Apparently.
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  Big names like Peter Thiel, Bellagi, Sreenivasan.
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  And the model aims for sustainability.
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  No single host city, lower costs.
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  Right. Using existing venues in places
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  like Sydney, LA, Vegas keep overheads down.
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  And the target is end of 2025 for the first games.
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  Yeah, that's soon. Yeah, it's ambitious.
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  And interestingly, the Olympic world might be reacting already.
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  World Athletics offering prize money for gold medals now.
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  Is that a direct response do you think?
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  Hard to say for sure, but the timing is interesting though.
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  The Enhanced Games prize is that $1,000,000 specifically for
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  breaking major world records, not just winning.
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  And they plan to negotiate appearance fees based on fame,
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  too. Yeah, it seems like a more
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  market driven approach to athlete compensation.
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  What about getting it on TV? Only major broadcasters
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  worldwide are interested see it as exciting television
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  potentially drawing big audiences.
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  And new sponsors, maybe pharma tech companies, not just the
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  usual sports drinks. That's the idea.
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  Anger Mayor pointed out the market cap of GLP one drug
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  companies versus AI startups, showing the economic power in
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  this enhancement space. Which hides into that idea of
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  pharma shifting towards prevention and enhancement.
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  Yeah, the outsourced discipline comment about GLP ones was quite
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  something. Using tech or meds to achieve
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  health goals. And seeing aging is a treatable
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  disease needing a paradigm shift in medicine.
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  It's a big vision and they predict records will fall at the
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  first games. How will the public react to
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  that? That's the $1,000,000 question,
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  isn't it? They think better funding and
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  focus for athletes will contribute too.
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  They mentioned the Olympic Village distractions.
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  That was funny. Yeah, contrasting that party
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  atmosphere with a potentially more focused training
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  environment. And just to recap that sports,
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  the five chosen were for media impact and lower costs.
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  Right, compared to niche sports with fewer participants or
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  viewers. They also brought up beta
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  blockers banned by W Otta for shooting but OK for musicians or
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  gamers using them to perform better.
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  Highlighting the inconsistencies, yeah, and the
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  whole issue with therapeutic use exemptions to you use potential
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  for abuse there. Especially in swimming with
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  asthma, inhalers or cycling. Yeah, it raises questions about
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  loopholes in the current system. OK.
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  Now the transgender athlete question.
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  Super complex. How are they handling it?
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  Well, First off, they acknowledged it is complex and
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  said so far no trans athletes aiming for world records have
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  actually approached them. So it's still theoretical for
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  them in a way. Seems like it.
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  Their stance is basically, let's talk to the athletes, let's
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  figure out a fair framework. Together, they acknowledge the
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  debate about biological advantages.
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  And they floated that idea. What about enhanced women versus
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  enhanced biological males? That's a whole new territory.
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  Totally unknown. Yeah, one possible system they
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  mentioned was using XXXY chromosomes may be less loaded
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  than male, female. They did suggest it might be
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  less of an issue at the very very the top elite level then
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  maybe headlines suggest. But they definitely expressed
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  concern about biological males, especially if enhanced,
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  competing against biological females.
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  And the effects of high testosterone on female athletes.
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  Potential permanent changes. And even economic factors for
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  female athletes, their brand image, it's tangled.
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  So what are their actual rules around enhancement use?
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  Three main ones they mentioned only use meds approved by major
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  agencies like the FDA, doctors involved must be publicly
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  accountable and mandatory health checks like heart MRI's to stop
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  people going overboard dangerously.
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  How does that compare to, say, CrossFit?
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  CrossFit tests anytime year round and bans specific
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  peptides, so Enhanced Games seems less about banning
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  specific things and more about ensuring what is used is
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  approved and monitored for health.
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  And again, they contrasted this with potential 2 E abuse in the
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  Olympics. Looking even further out, gene
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  editing. CRISPR, yeah, they see that as
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  inevitable, especially for sports, and touched on
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  transhumanism, integrating tech with biology.
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  They brought up the ancient Olympics being more open to
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  enhancement, like bull testicles.
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  Yeah, the methods were primitive, but the idea wasn't
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  taboo. And competing nude to stop women
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  sneaking in disguised as men? Crazy historical detail.
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  So wrapping up, their main message seems to be let's have
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  open conversations, use data, challenge old ideas about limits
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  and risk. Right.
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  And that change can happen, that business models can actually
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  drive positive shifts sometimes. The power of new media like
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  podcasts to get these ideas out. There yeah, challenging
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  mainstream narratives and the need for accurate info.
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  Informed consent around substances.
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  And that final jab? The irony of Olympic sponsors
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  often being junk food or soda companies.
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  Yeah, contrasting that with their vision of showcasing
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  positive enhancement through science.
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  So pulling it all together, the enhanced games, it's a pretty
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  radical vision, isn't it, Openly using science, challenging the
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  Olympic traditions, the hypocrisy as they see.
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  Absolutely. It forces you to question basic
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  things like what even is cheating?
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  What are the real potentials of human enhancement?
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  Loads to think about. What are you listening?
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  Think about all this? Is openly enhanced competition
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  exciting or worrying? Are there benefits beyond just
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  breaking records? It leaves us with a pretty big
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  thought, doesn't it? In a world changing so fast with
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  tech, how long can our ideas about human limits stay stuck in
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  the past? Maybe these games are less about
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  just faster times and more about forcing us to evolve how we
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  think about our bodies, our potential.
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  If you want to dig deeper yourself, their website is
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  enhanced.org and they're on Instagram at Enhancedgames.
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  And the founders are on Instagram too.
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  Christianengermeer is at Christianengermeer and Ayon
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  Tuzak is at Acurjanpinza. Thanks for diving deep with us
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  on this one. Yeah.
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  Thanks for joining us. We'll catch you on the next deep
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  dive.