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Andy Stanley - REVERB 10 Elevating Your Communication · Andy Stanley Sermons

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Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership podcast Reverb, a conversation that digs deeper into
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this month's podcast topic, all designed to help leaders go even further faster.
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I'm your host, Susie Gray, and before we get started, I want
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to thank the Color Works Group, who is bringing you today's episode. Have
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you ever said something in a meeting and then immediately wished you could take it
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back? Offered criticism you thought was constructive but it came out a little too
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harsh. We have all been there. That's why this month's topic, our
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ability to effectively communicate is so important. Recognizing our intention doesn't really matter when
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it comes to our words. I can intend to say one thing, but
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what the other person hears determines the temperature of the conversation. And this is
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where the Color Works Group can help you by getting your words right the first
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time. They are for corporate training, digital assessments, and books that will
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teach you how your wiring influences your communication in meetings, emails, texts,
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and even around the dinner table. See all the way as a color Works
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Group can improve your team's communication at the Colorworksgroup dot com. That's the Colorworksgroup
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dot com Now let's jump into today's conversation. This month, we're talking about
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our conversation last week with Charles Duhig regarding how we can become more effective communicators,
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essentially super communicators, and in our reaverb I'd like to pull together some
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of our learnings from several podcasts that we've released on this topic, as this
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collective learning really is powerful. So Andy, we talk a lot on the
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podcast about the importance of being a good communicator as a leader, both publicly
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and within your organization. And in one on ones we had our episode with
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John Maxwell last fall, Sheila Heen was in December that was great, and
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then now we've had Charles and all of them underscored how critical this skill is.
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But honestly, for me, the trickiest conversations to navigate as a leader
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are the interpersonal ones. So to get us started, what do you think
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is at stake if a leader in particular does not get this right. Well
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this sounds a little crasp, but basically, you talk, but you don't
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communicate, and you talk and don't communicate and you don't know it. Yeah,
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because everybody nods along and takes notes and they're polite because you're the leader.
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You know, what else are they going to do? So and you
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finish. I mean, this has happened to me where I just felt like
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I did a great job and then people ask questions and You're like, I
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just explain that, and I'm just saying this, so well, what could
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I mean? What are these questions? Where were you? Were you not
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there? And then like, well they were there, I just I just
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finished, or later on somebody comes back. So you talk and talk and
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talk, talk, and then people talk about you, but they don't connect
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with you. And again you don't know it because nobody's going to tell you
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unless you employ what Charles talked about and make it a conversation you instead of
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just dispensing information. You learn to be conversational, not just one on one
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as we've talked about, but you can be conversational in terms of empathetic listening,
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recognizing multiple identities, all these things that he talked about. You can
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even do that as a public speaker. In fact, anybody who has heard
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a public speaker, the time went fast and you felt more like it was
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a conversation than a lecture. They were employing all of these things. So
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the whole idea of being a super communicator, according to Charles, is instead
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of talking at and talking too, you were talking with and there are learned
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skills, and he does such a great job of the book teasing all these
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out, but even in our conversation as well that if we'll just pay attention,
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employ some of these skills and make them habits, we can all actually
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be conversational rather than just talking all the time. And again, as a
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leader, going back to the point of our podcast, the deck is really
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stacked against us as leaders because when we talk, people are negotiating with us
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in their minds. You can't help it. When a leader's talking, there's
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not equity in the relationship. It's not peer to peer. I mean the
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leader is a leader. I think, oh yeah, we're just all friends.
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But I'm the boss, so there's not equity. So my words are
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being filtered through the natural filter that somebody who's depending on somebody for a paycheck
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has. You just can't help that. So again I think I'm being so
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clear and I'm, you know, being so precise, But there's so many
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filters because as Charles talked about, there's so many identities. You're hearing this
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as a mother. You're hearing this as a wife, You're hearing this as
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somebody who's taking care of an aging parent. You're hearing this as somebody who's
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got to go in twenty minutes. I wonder how long this is going to
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go. He's already over time. All those things got kids to pick it
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right, All those things are going through our minds. Meanwhile I'm up here
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droning on and on about the mission and the vision, you know, and
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it's all so important. So again, there's not equity. We aren't peers.
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The leader who thinks he or she is is mistaken, and the leader
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who doesn't even want to be a peer. That's the other problem is I'm
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not only are there's the leader of the things. Oh we're just equal in
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friends, and there's a leader that likes No, No, we're not.
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I'm the leader. I'm the boss, and you know my words are authoritative,
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not just here in the office, but in your whole life. Right,
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I can call you anytime because you know you owe that to me.
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And lords it over their employees that they don't even try to listen. They're
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not even trying to communicate. So we're doomed. I mean either way.
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You know, you think you're a peer, you're not. You lorded over
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people. You shouldn't do that. So the skill set we all need,
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all of us. And as much as I communicate, I just love this
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conversation with him and loved the book. There are skills we can develop,
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habits we can develop to actually communicate connect with people again, one on one,
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one on three, are even in large groups. But it is a
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learned skill. And just because we're interesting doesn't mean we're communicating it. They're
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not even necessarily related. So anyway, that's sort of my general overview of
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how this relates to leadership. Yeah, and you know, Charles even said
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last week that this idea of having learning conversations is so important and that facilitates
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that conversational aspect of a communication exchange. And he gave us four rules that
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are part of learning conversations. But rule two about stating the goal of the
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conversation felt fresh to me. I think you actually said it feels awkward to
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you. Yeah, he explained it so well. When you talk about the
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purpose of a conversation, very few people start a conversation with I want to
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talk to you about X, or the reason I want to meet with you.
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You know, in a corporate environment, you generally know we're going to
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have a one on one. I'm going to be evaluated. I'm going to
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give you a whole list of things to talk about. Yeah, you know,
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I want to follow up to you. Let's get together. I want
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to follow up on the meeting yesterday. So in a corporate environment, it's
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not unusual to state the purpose of a conversation, but interpersonal relationships, that's
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not intuitive. But as he talked about, it so helpful. And I
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talked about, you know, the fear of whenever a parent says to a
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child, we need to talk, Oh, well, I just assume I'm
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in trouble. You know, it would be better if my In fact,
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honestly, I didn't mention this to him because I didn't want to keep talking
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because he's the guest. But with my kids, because that was such a
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thing with my dad and he didn't mean it, but my dad didn't have
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a dad growing up, so we'd say, when I get home from school,
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I want to have a chat. Well, I just assume you know
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something. The world's coming to an end, And it was rarely that so
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with my kids because of that, I would say, Andrew or Gary Alli,
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hey you are not in trouble. I just need to talk. I
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would just let them know up front, let's just take this. Yeah again,
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but that's a little bit of an application of what he talks about.
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Let people know, you know, this is the purpose of this conversation.
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And you know, I've heard you say that you don't think you do that
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well, but I think you do do that well. And here's why I
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say that when we get together. You are so great about sending me an
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agenda. Whenever I sit down with you, I know exactly what we're going
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to talk about, which gives me an opportunity to be prepared for what we
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talk about, which is convicting to me because I just don't create agendas sometimes
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with people. I mean, generally people know what I want to talk about.
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But that whole idea of here's the agenda, I get it ahead of
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time. I mean, if there are surprises, they are good surprises.
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So again that's being polite. Charles talks about we could actually in that same
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habit in interpersonal relationships, and again, it creates more conversation than just talking
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and talking. Yeah, and I thought it was interesting too. He was
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saying that there's some some things you're not even communicating necessarily, but you're saying,
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what do I really hope to get out of this? What am I
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really trying to understand? And identifying that in yourself, even if you don't
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with the person you're communicating with beforehand, helps you take the right posture to
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facilitate the conversation you want to have. And I hadn't really even thought about
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that is you know, this is what we need to go over, but
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what do I hope to accomplish or what do I help to understand? That's
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another layer of preparation that I think would be so helpful in these learning conversations.
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Well, we just start talking, yeah, and we think we know
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what we want to get out of it, But the discipline of clarifying,
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especially if it may trend towards something negative or something hard or something emotional,
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to be clear, here's why I want to talk to this person, or
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here's the why behind the what that prepares me to communicate, rather than just
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start talking and leave them kind of guessing, you know what, you know,
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what is this about? What is it about? Anyway? Yeah,
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and again he clarifies it in the book. We both know Rick Holliday,
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and I feel like Rick is really really good at this. When our division
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was preparing to launch as a separate organization, we would always start the meeting,
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not with necessarily the agenda, but with like, Okay, let's remember
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what our goal is. Our goal is to finish this process with two strong
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organizations on mission and for each other. And every meeting we were like,
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okay that whatever we talk about, we've got to make sure that that's what
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happens, that we create two organizations that are on mission, strong and for
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each other. And that was a really great way to just set the tone
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of yeah, there's a little bit of you need this and I need this,
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but but at the end of the day, we both want that goal.
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And it set that tone for the conversation that Okay, I'm going to
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give as far as I can and you're going to give as far as you
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can because we both both want the same thing and we both have that same
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goal. So it did remind me a little bit of that section of the
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book of that's an example of not just stating this is what I want to
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talk about, but this is what my goal is for the discussion to set
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a tone for what comes next. And then there's the opposite of that.
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Well, I say it's opposite. It's similar, but it's less structured.
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There are also times when someone has said to me, hey, I want
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to get together and I don't have an agenda, which is, oh,
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so you don't want I don't need to ask what are we going to talk
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about or worry what we're going to talk about. That's kind of a liberating
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thing to say, I want to get together and chat. I don't have
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an agenda. Okay, I've just told you what kind of conversation this is
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going to be the goal of this conversation is this is just a conversation to
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catch up relational connecttion. So just those little things up front can be so
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helpful, especially I think in our marriages and specifically with our kids, because
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I think corporately we kind of automatically do that a little bit. It's easier,
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it's easier, and you expect it. You don't just say, hey,
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I want you to come in at three. Period. Don't do that,
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especially at three nas Okay, I got the Friday, Yeah, I'm
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busy then forever right, yeah, So again, corporate it's a little easier.
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But even then I think I need to up my game on that because
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it's again, I'm the boss. I don't I just hey, let's get
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together. Hey Diane calls so and so, tell them I want to get
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together with him. And she'll even say sometimes what should I say? The
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purpose is? I'm like, oh, don't. Don't you know I'm too
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lazy to tell you just schedule it. Well, at least I should follow
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up and say, hey, Diane called, and you know, here's what
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I want to talk about. So anyway're good. Well, it's interesting.
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On the subject of one on one communications, Sheila last December and Charles last
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week both elevated the importance of understanding identity that's brought to a conversation. I
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think that is such an important thought, is you know, you're bringing all
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these different things to the table in terms of today, I'm wad heavy because
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my husband and I had a fight on the way in, or you know,
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my kid isn't doing well and we're struggling with that, and you bring
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all of these identities to any conversation. And Sheila had talked about identity from
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the perspective of you view yourself as something and when someone steps on it,
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you may have a reaction that's not aligned with and they don't know why and
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they have no idea why. So talk a little bit about how, both
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from Sheila's perspective of how identity plays out and Charles's perspective, how have you
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seen that in your own leadership? Well, first of all, the conversation
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with Sheila, I never thought about any of that and using those words,
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right, We've all found ourselves in confusing conversations because of this, but we
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didn't know what it was. It was like, why are you so sensitive?
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Why are you so upset? Or I don't think you're listening, or
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you know, I've had conversations with people and they just shut down and I'm
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I'm still talking, but there are nothing's coming back. They're shut down and
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I'm still talking, And then I'm wondering should I stop and say, what's
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wrong with you? That's so offensive? What's wrong with you? You know?
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Why aren't you know? Yeah, something happened. Well, I've wounded
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an identity, not intentionally, but I should know better than that. So
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that's one side of it. Then with Charles, the whole idea of being
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curious enough to discover those with what he talks about these emotional conversations where I
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ask about a fact and then instead of a second fact, I talk about
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an emotion associated with that fact. How did that make you feel? Yeah?
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Where are you from? Or I'm from Boston? Oh so hey,
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how do you enjoy living in the South? Is it different? Now?
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I've gone from what to how does it feel to live here? Or you
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know those kinds of things. Well, those kinds of questions give a person
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an opportunity to reveal something about their multiple identities. Yeah, well I moved
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here because I got divorced and my mom lives here, and I moved in
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with my mom. So now, okay, you're a divorce ee. That's
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part of an identity. You didn't choose that. You're caring for your mom.
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You're a caregiver, that's an identity. You're a Northerner who's moved to
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the South. You're a transplant that and I mean suddenly, there are all
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these layers that we all carry, and the more I'm aware of those and
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the people I work with or interact with, it gives me an opportunity,
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whether I choose or not to be sensitive as opposed to just bulldozing through and
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sticking with the facts. And the way he talked about it, it sounds
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so complicated. And again we've had two guests who went there, and it's
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not complicated. It's just remember it's just take the whole person into consideration.
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None of us are monolithic. None of us are just an employee, none
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of us are just a man, none of us. You know that.
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It's multiple. And when I say that, everybody listening is like, well,
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yeah, I know that. Well, we don't take all that sometimes
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into consideration, right, because I'm in a hurry. Let's get to the
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fact. So for both of these conversations, that's been a huge takeaway,
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and to flipping around. All of us have had the experience of talking to
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someone and suddenly we discover we are just talking and talking, and we are
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telling this person so much about ourselves, and you kind of catch yourself being
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more vulnerable than maybe you're accustomed to. And it's because they triggered that in
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us, and because now some people just can't wait to talk about themselves.
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But generally it's they're bragging it, it's all about the facts. But when
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you discover I am being unusually vulnerable with someone. You've just met someone who
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opened up and acknowledged more than one identity, and now you are filling those
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gaps and it's comfortable and it's so accepting. But it's a skill that we
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should all develop because people feel heard and they feel understood, and they feel
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loved, and everybody wants to be loved in an appropriate way. So I
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like the fact that Charles said, you know, everybody can be a supercommunicator.
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This is an extra version in perversion, it's hardwired into us as humans.
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Yeah, we just can bring it out. And I liked at the
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end he mentioned this idea of someone tells you something and rather than asking for
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like, oh, and then what did you do? Or whatever it is,
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I said, gosh, how did that make you feel? That that
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must have hurt? Yeah, that must have hurt. Well, how did
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you feel when that happen? Yeah? I don't lead that way, and
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that is something just adding that in to the conversation. She's with my kids
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even but in all aspects, I think that that's an easy way to step
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into this if you're getting used to how does this play out in conversation?
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The I mentioned to him, I took a course many many, many years
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ago on empathetic listening, and the huge takeaway from me, I wasn't even
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this is before I was even married, And is that many years ago,
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And the whole idea of listening for emotion and naming the emotion is a door
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again not to manipulate, although it can be. It's that must have hurt
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you know. I bet you were so angry when that happened. Name their
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feeling. I'm going to name your feeling. And this is true of all
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of us. When someone acknowledges our emotion and doesn't chastise us for it,
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it feels like acceptance. It may be the deepest sense of acceptance. I
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didn't have to tell you how I felt. You guessed it correctly, You
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named it, and you affirmed it like I would have been mad too,
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or I bet you were mad. If that had happened to me, I
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would have been so hurt. I was so hurt. Oh. Of course,
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again, I haven't said you shouldn't feel you know, you shouldn't feel
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that way. Nobody should ever say that to anybody about anything, but it's
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easy to go there. So yeah, that empathetic listening, listening for emotion,
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naming the emotion, affirming the emotion, especially with kids, that'll keep
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your kids talking. You know, kids comes home from school, miss so
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and so, such and such a I hate her, I hate her,
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I hate her. Well, my initial reaction is what happened when I'm asking
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for information as opposed to I can tell you are so upset. Come here,
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You're so upset, you are so angry. I've acknowledged it. I'm
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not going to chastise you, and you're going to find out what happened.
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But starting with the emotion as opposed to what happened, give me more facts.
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You know. That takes communication to an emotional level, which is one
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of the things that Charles talked about and all of these things again, now
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we're not just talking, we're actually communicating. People feel understood, and we
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all want to work with and for people who know the layers of our identities,
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appreciate those, and are willing to take those into consideration in the course
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of even corporate life, so that those are the people we want to work
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for. Those are the people we want to work with. So, with
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all that we've talked about in the last year on the topic of communication from
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your own leadership experience on this topic, What is your biggest learning or your
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biggest takeaway from an interpersonal communication perspective? For me, I think it's this
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whole thing of acknowledging and remembering to think about multiple identities. It's not an
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identity crisis. It's not somebody's trying to be something they're not. It's almost
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multiple roles. But the word identity is more power because I identify as a
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father and a husband, and a brother, and an uncle and a grand
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I mean it goes on and on, and a boss and a pastor.
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It's multiple. So taking those into consideration in my communication with people, I
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want to be good at that because as a Christian, I'm supposed to do
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for others what I want others to do for me, and I want others
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to do that for me. I don't want to be just the pastor.
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I don't want to be just the boss. I want people to be able
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to appreciate, you know, all those different identities. So I need to
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do that for other people. Yeah, I think that has been one of
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my biggest takeaways as well. I also feel like understanding which identities do you
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hold most close to you? Yep, has been really helpful because then it
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helps you identify, oh, this feeling that just got triggered to me,
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it's not them, it's me, yep, And it allows you to not
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have as a bigger reaction as you would have otherwise. I feel like when
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you can identify, oh, you know, I hold being a leader as
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one of the core core identities, or I hold parenting and you just made
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me feel like I'm a bad mom, you know, and that, well,
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my reaction was not, you know, in line with what you said.
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Knowing that upfront can help you quell that dissonance between what your action should
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be and what it actually is. So well, I can give an example
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of that, probably five years ago, an employee who worked here a long
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time. We let her go, and it was it wasn't a huge deal,
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but you know, she needed to go, and so we weren't even
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close. I mean, I knew who she was and what she did,
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but I wasn't the one who terminated her work here. But she told a
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friend of mine, she made a comment to a friend of mine about my
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leadership, and I can still remember it. Wow, five years later,
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Yes, yeah, and it stung hearing someone else who wasn't defending the other
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person. They were just relaying this comment she made about my failure in leadership,
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and she just kind of went on thinking, you know, that not
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hurt Andy's feelings. I mean, as a leader, look at all this
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stuff he's done. I can still quote it because that is an identity for
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me. Now, if you'd ask me, you know, Andy Wich,
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what is your identity all wrapped up in I probably would have never said the
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leader. But it's a reality. And this is to the point you just
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made. Sometimes this is how we discover just how important an identity is and
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mature people, and you just demonstrated your maturity when I can realize, Oh,
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the reason that's stung was because this is something that I hold. This
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is something This is a filter or a label through which I identify and measure
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myself by. So this is an area where I'm going to be easily wounded.
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And I just remember that need to remember that this is a me thing.
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They didn't know, they're just they're just talking. But again, for
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other people, when they shut down and we're not sure why, it's because
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we've tripped over one of their identity when they're deeply how deep Yes, and
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again I think sometimes we don't even know what they are. But the opposite
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is true as well. Somebody will compliment you on something that it just means
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way more than they even meant for it to mean, because again it's something
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that you, I don't want to say, pride yourself in, but we
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again, it was something that we hold as an identity. So this whole
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topic, I just think of all these conversations, that's the one that has
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been most intriguing to figure out how to appropriately leverage and appropriately identify personally so
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that I don't overreact. So yeah, it's been so good. Well,
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Andy, as we wrap up today, let's end where we started. We've
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talked a lot about communication of this past year, from John Maxwell to Sheila
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Heen to this menth with Charles, and I've said it before and I'm going
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to keep saying it because I deeply believe it. The communication is your superpower.
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And I know it's so important to you, and which is why we've
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been talking about it so much. But it's so important to you that you
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just spent a few months creating a masterclass on communication for a specific set of
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communicators, specifically pastors. And I know what your calendar looks like. And
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I know how busy you are, so we're going to link to this resource
23:07
in the show notes. But why did you decide I'm going to spend this
23:11
much time reviewing scripts, editing scripts, shooting scripts on a masterclass on communication
23:18
for pastors. Why does that feel like something that was worth that time?
23:22
Well, if I can answer, honestly, I didn't want to do it
23:25
because I didn't have time, and it was an extraordinary time. Time took
23:30
a lot of time because I wrote scripts and you know all that takes a
23:33
lot of time. Lane Jones on our staff has been after me for two
23:37
years, I know, which is so honoring to me because he's like,
23:41
Andy, you got all this stuff inside of you and it needs to be
23:45
transferable. He would say that, I'm like, I appreciate that. Thank
23:48
you. That's such a compliment. I do think you're right, But I
23:52
don't have time to do this. So first of all, he talked me
23:56
into it, to be honest, but for two I know, well,
23:59
I'm so grateful he did that and to have a friend that values that,
24:03
and he did so much of the work to get me up to the starting
24:07
line and to the finish line. But the other thing is, and I've
24:10
talked about this before, I think all of us, you know, this
24:12
little crazy metaphor analogy of I can't fill anybody's cut, but my responsibilities to
24:18
empty mind, well, that all of us have a responsibility. Whatever we
24:22
know about anything, we have a responsibility to pass that along. And we
24:26
hesitate because we think, oh, I'm not an expert. But that's not
24:29
the goal. The goal isn't to know everything. The goal is to pass
24:30
along the something what you do know what you do know, And this is
24:33
an area where over all these forty plus years of doing it, I've accumulated
24:40
knowledge, and so I'm responsible to the next generation of communicators. I feel
24:44
like to pass that along. Not because I'm the be all end all.
24:48
I mean, there's so much more than what I know, and there's so
24:51
much more to learn than what I would ever be able to teach. But
24:53
because of my personality, I have a tendency to talk myself out of it,
24:56
because I think people have already talked about that I'm not the expert,
25:00
and I'll hear somebody else talk about communication and go, oh, I never
25:03
even thought about that. But that's not the right way to approach it.
25:07
So you know, Lane just stayed after me appropriately, and so I shot
25:11
all these videos and of course I loved that. I loved working on the
25:14
scripts. It's something that I'm so passionate about. And now I feel like,
25:18
Okay, I did that. It's out there. Nobody may ever watch
25:21
it, but it doesn't matter. I've done my part. I've put it
25:25
out there for you know, people who can benefit from it. So but
25:27
and again, I think to some degree, whether it's just what we pass
25:30
along to our kids, or if there's a skill set we passed along to
25:33
other people, Hey, when we have an opportunity, we should do that.
25:37
And again this goes back to what Arthur Brooks talked about on the podcast.
25:40
You know, if there's fluid intelligence and that crystallized intelligence, everybody has
25:45
something they could teach about if they had an opportunity to teach about it.
25:48
It might be teach about teaching because you've been a school teacher for twenty years.
25:52
My goodness. It's whenever we try to get married couples to be mentors
25:56
for newlyweds, you know, people who been married fifteen, twenty years,
26:00
and they're like, oh, what would we say to these young couples,
26:03
we're like, you wait so much, you know more than you think you
26:07
know. You don't know how smart you are about marriage. Do you sit
26:08
down with somebody who just got married. That's right, and it's likely.
26:11
Oh gosh, we know so much about marriage, right, so much.
26:15
Well, we all have responsibility and when we can get an opportunity to pass
26:21
along what we know. We don't have to know everything. Our responsibilities to
26:25
share what we do know. So that's that's kind of what's behind us.
26:27
Well, that's really great. It's going to be a really helpful resource,
26:30
and we'll link to it in the show notes for people that are interested in
26:33
it. But I think that that puts a period on the importance of communication
26:36
for you to spend that much time of your personal time sharing what you've learned
26:41
on communication. So anyway, well, that is all the time we have
26:45
for this episode of Reverb. Andy thanks so much as always for digging deeper
26:48
in the topic of communication and providing a few more insights. And to all
26:52
of our listeners who want to thank you for joining us, be sure to
26:56
visit Andy Stanley dot com slash podcast, where you apply more resources to help
27:00
you go further faster MHM,