Latest / Identity at the Center / #210 - B2X IAM UX with Larry King

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#210 - B2X IAM UX with Larry King · Identity at the Center

0:01
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
0:08
am this is the go-to podcast. So if you're a beginner or an
0:14
expert or anyone in between you've found your new home
0:18
welcome to Identity at the center now your host Jim
0:23
McDonald and Jeff Steadman Welcome to the identity of the
0:28
sender podcast, I'm Jeff. And that's Jim.
0:31
Hey Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:33
Oh, not so bad yourself good. I was wondering, do you mind if
0:37
I start the show off with a complaint, it wouldn't be an
0:41
identifier podcast of the last, like three months, if you
0:43
didn't. So my complaint is around the
0:49
idea that okay, you have a pre-production environment, you
0:52
go through testing, and then you go to production and you start
0:57
finding Errors, really. What the hell?
1:01
Why didn't they just get caught in pre-production testing?
1:04
Because they didn't match. Yeah.
1:07
Well that's usually the case, right?
1:08
Yeah. Is like your pre-production
1:10
testing environments like one server node load balancer.
1:14
All that, you know, yada yada yada.
1:17
Yeah. You hit the nail on the head,
1:19
but in this almost like a been through that before you've been
1:23
through it before, but you know what?
1:25
I was kind of like mapping that to was, we talk a lot of times
1:29
about what makes a good entry into I am.
1:34
And I think, you know, Fundamentals of being an it.
1:39
That's a good starting point for identity and access management.
1:44
Yeah, I mean, I started at the help desk very very very long
1:48
time ago, back in a galaxy far far away.
1:51
And so you know, moved into and I am operations rule certainly
1:54
got a lot of exposure to all the things that can and will go
1:57
wrong, especially as the help desk, which is always been my
2:00
pet. Peeve is when things get rolled
2:02
out. And they forget about
2:03
operations, like, oh, well, just have help desk, or service desk
2:06
or whatever your first line is, Right deal.
2:09
The issues that come out. So I make it a point to make
2:11
sure that those folks are included, you know, when we're
2:14
doing work on the real world. Yeah, I give a shout-out to
2:17
Andrew Cheng the phone who was a guest.
2:20
On our show feels like centuries ago and he's kind of dedicated
2:25
himself to, you know, a YouTube channel where he kind of helps
2:33
them doobies kind of understand. I am, and I say what I mean by
2:36
newbies is newbies to, I am so wherever And they're starting
2:39
point happens to be kind of like a what are the single sign-on
2:43
what is identity governance and administration, what does
2:46
privileged access Etc? And someone can watch a video
2:49
and kind of get up to speed on those things.
2:51
So, check him out. And through to Andrew chat, the
2:55
phone is on the identity of the sender podcast a while back and
3:00
he's got a great YouTube channel.
3:01
Yeah, actually, referred Andrews channel to my new friend,
3:05
kozara, who is looking to, potentially, get into dining
3:08
space Well here's here's someone who's certainly spent some time
3:11
putting together trainings and kind of demystify ocation of
3:15
some identity things. So difficult.
3:17
So person number one resource is the identity of the center
3:21
pocket. Let's not forget about that.
3:22
Yeah. But you can't watch us which is
3:25
probably a good thing for everybody's eyesight so you can
3:29
only listen, at least this my unless you catch us live when
3:31
we're at you know like we did at Gardner which is a lot of fun
3:34
where we're going to be doing at identification.
3:35
A few weeks which is going to be fun as well.
3:37
But yeah, we're for the most. Part Audio Only.
3:40
Yeah. Looking forward to identify
3:42
verse. I mean, besides kind of
3:44
scheduling all the Fantastic guests that we're going to be
3:47
talking to it identifies. I've also been the social
3:50
planner. So anybody who's out there, who
3:53
wants to hang out with Jim and Geoff.
3:55
Reach out to me. I offer reaching out to me on
3:59
LinkedIn, just saying, hey looking for stuff to do and I'll
4:04
let you know what we're doing anyway.
4:05
And certainly if it's possible for me to Like your long, I'm
4:10
not sure which of the events will have control over, but
4:13
certainly, one of the great things is that we're going to be
4:18
doing the podcast live during the opening reception just
4:22
outside the entry to the expo hall.
4:25
So if you've ever wanted to see the podcast, be recorded will be
4:30
there, we're going to have some great guests, who just going to
4:32
drop in, let us know what they're looking forward to in
4:35
the, in the conference and things like that.
4:39
I think would be a great opportunity to kind of just you
4:42
know play a part in it. I'm sure we'll come up with a
4:45
few questions and ask for hand raises and things like that.
4:49
Yeah so it's kind of a weird thing to say it's like we're
4:52
going to be recording it live in front of a conference audience.
4:57
Maybe I'm not sure what that's going to look live studio
4:59
audience. Yeah, it'll be you'll watch this
5:01
record, we're going to be. I think we are scheduled for
5:03
7:00 p.m. Tuesday night which is May 30th.
5:07
We're supposed to go, 45 minutes.
5:09
We'll see if we go along there's plenty of stuff going on so we
5:12
do want to keep people away but yeah we got some some cool folks
5:15
on a come through certainly. You know if people want to come
5:18
check us out while we're doing our thing and you know maybe get
5:21
a microphone shoved in their face, he like be feel like
5:23
being, you know, on the show as well, you know, certainly think
5:27
about how we could do that. But I'm glad you mentioned
5:29
identifies gym because we have partnered with identifiers for
5:32
people who aren't familiar. It is coming up.
5:35
It's only a few weeks away. It's heading to Vegas.
5:38
I don't ever 20:23 is coming. Join the digital identity
5:42
community at the Aria Resort and Casino in Las Vegas, May 30th to
5:46
June seconds. Jim, as you mentioned you and I
5:49
are recording May 30th at 7 p.m. just outside the expo hall.
5:52
You're going to have me stuck in a room for, I don't know. 700
5:56
different recordings. It seems like they were going to
5:57
be doing the we do that. We had a we had a messaging
6:01
exchange where it was kind of like you're like trying to spec
6:04
some time to actually work on the Pikes and like we're going
6:07
to be in Vegas where you just a touch.
6:09
Now, Fred say, I don't even know, like we're gonna be
6:11
recording when we're not in like Keynotes or stuff like that
6:14
from, but it is, the must attend annual event.
6:16
That brings together over 2500 Security Professionals for four
6:20
days of world class, learning engagement, and entertainment as
6:24
an identity at the center listener.
6:25
Which is you, you're listening to this, you're invited.
6:27
You're able to receive 20% off your identity verse twenty.
6:30
Twenty three tickets, using the code idv. 23-0, icen. 20, you
6:37
can register identifier, Scott, Cam tickets are going fast.
6:41
Want to get their hang out with genuine self, hang out with
6:43
other people. In the identity space I'll have
6:46
a link in our show notes because there's an easy click that you
6:49
can do to just click there and we'll put the code in
6:50
automatically and actually that helps kind of support and
6:54
support the show to. Right?
6:55
Kind of shows, people are listening to our drivel every
6:58
week and talking through identy things.
7:01
And we hope to see people there. What do you think?
7:03
They just doesn't just benefit the show.
7:05
It benefits. The people use the code because
7:07
I think I've looked around Four different discount codes.
7:12
If you are going with a bigger group and things that I haven't
7:15
seen a discount code, that's any better.
7:18
I don't think I've even seen one as high as 20%, so from what
7:23
I've seen in my limited research, that's the best
7:26
discount code available. Well yeah, I mean those are
7:28
saying I mean, identifies people been really cool.
7:30
We had Andy and you know, not too long ago, kind of gave a
7:33
preview on that and there's gonna be a lot of a lot of
7:36
really welcoming and You know good folks that are attending.
7:40
It's good spot for both Neo newbie and Veteran alike to kind
7:43
of, get in congregate, learn some stuff.
7:45
And yeah it'll be a fun time. So I'm looking forward to it but
7:49
it's been a whole month since I was at a conference.
7:51
So it's time for another one. What are we going to talk about
7:55
today? Jim, because I know that you
7:56
were instrumental in getting our guests lined up for today and I
8:00
wasn't quite sure what to call this episode.
8:03
So you could call the episode something around I am user
8:06
experience or User Journeys, as I've been calling it a lot
8:12
lately because it's kind of the idea behind, you know, giving a
8:16
terrible user journey to go ahead and register your account
8:21
or change your password, or manage your profile or one,
8:25
that's matches the rest of the web environment that you're, you
8:30
know, going to be using. So anyway, that's that's kind of
8:33
my thought. What were you thinking?
8:35
Well, that's way too long. First of all for our show title
8:38
it's got that But something a lot shorter.
8:40
Like something like I am. You xor like B2B b2c bde.
8:45
Be 2x. I am ux, I don't know.
8:47
I've got a kind of figured out your perked up when I said be 2x
8:51
B 2x, I think you should. You should stamp that you should
8:54
remark that. Yeah, trademark yeah, yeah, okay
8:57
well let's get into it because we've got Larry King on.
9:00
He's the vice president of product with serve acity.
9:02
Welcome to the show Larry. Hi everybody.
9:04
Thanks for having me on. Yeah, thanks for joining us.
9:07
And, you know, looking forward to Relation today, you've got a
9:10
lot of background in actual product design and I'm sure you
9:13
can tell us what's wrong with I identity user experiences, but
9:18
this is the first time you've been on the show.
9:19
So we like to always find out a little, about the backgrounds of
9:22
our guests. How did you get into the
9:24
identity and access management space?
9:26
Is it something that you chose, or did it choose you?
9:29
Yes. So yeah, like you said, I'm from
9:32
a ux background instead of a technical background like a lot
9:36
of product people are So Jim when you're talking about
9:40
customer Journeys and user Journeys and stuff like that
9:42
that my ears perk up because I'm glad that the vernacular of the
9:46
user experience practices, it's gotten out to other people as
9:50
well. And that means that we're being
9:51
effective as a ux journey or a ux community of getting out the
9:59
message that these things are important.
10:01
But yeah, so I'm I started out in user experience early 2000s.
10:07
What did a lot of Consulting work in like Guy worked at, you
10:09
know, one of the big, you know, five Consultants did worked at a
10:13
smaller agency and then I got, I decided that I really wanted to
10:18
get into internal product teams for in ux because I saw the
10:24
incentives and Consulting were more like, you know, sell hours
10:27
rather than make product better. So, I wanted to make product
10:30
better. So I had a somebody acquaintance
10:33
that was running. The ux department at a little
10:36
startup called mandiant. And we and it was, you know,
10:41
there are security company. They do incident response and
10:44
they had product security products controls and things but
10:47
I had no idea what security was at that point.
10:50
I thought I was going to be working on login screens when I
10:53
went to an Indian because I didn't know any better.
10:56
And then I quickly found out I was going to be working on this
10:59
instant response product for endpoint security and as like I
11:03
learned a lot about Windows internals that, I didn't think I
11:06
would ever need to know, or want to know.
11:09
But I learned them very, very quickly.
11:11
So I started making, you know, designing products for incident
11:14
responders and then when Keith and Steven moved on from,
11:21
because that's where I met Keith.
11:21
And even the founders of sebasi, I started working with in there
11:26
and they went off to a company called secureauth where we all
11:31
work for a while. And we worked on, you know, bde
11:36
Workforce identity there and Workforce.
11:39
Any product and then went away from there.
11:43
Went back to a fire I which had been brought in by that many had
11:48
bought in them and then I came and then Stephen and Keith
11:51
started. Strove a city about three and a
11:53
half years ago and I've been with them ever since and so, I
11:57
don't know. Yeah, I was gonna say I just
11:59
didn't, I didn't choose identity.
12:01
I just kind of got into it because, you know, the people
12:04
that I work with and trusted and and got along really well with
12:07
were the where the That kind of went into their kind of follow
12:10
them along. So here I am.
12:12
That's been my running thesis, I think you know a lot of people
12:15
fell into identity not necessarily by choice but sort
12:18
of like by happens to it happen stance.
12:21
And we did have Steven on back in, I want to say September 20
12:24
21 I think was episode 112. So if you want to learn more
12:28
about Steven and kind of what he works, over the works on Mister
12:31
vassily, but for those who aren't familiar, with strove
12:33
acity, you've got people now give us like the 60 second
12:37
elevator pitch. We don't want to be a Commercial
12:39
for, you know, for sure of a city but at least give people
12:42
some awareness of what are what do you guys work on?
12:45
And what are some of the, you know, the the solutions you
12:47
bring to the market? Yeah, absolutely.
12:48
So we are we, you know, we started about three and a half
12:50
years ago so we're very young in the industry compared to some of
12:53
the competitors and the but we were purpose-built for identity
13:00
management when it comes to customers.
13:02
So see I am is all we do. We don't do you know, bde we
13:06
focus on b2c and B2B use cases for I am will talk, you know
13:10
later about what the differences are between those.
13:13
But we, you know, our elevator pitches.
13:15
We believe that remarkable sign-in Journeys are
13:17
forgettable. In fact, we even sometimes, if
13:19
you look at our press releases, it says extra Varsity.
13:22
The company aiming to make customers sign in turn, he's
13:24
entirely forgettable, which I love that line.
13:26
And we mean that forgettable in two ways, it's forgettable for
13:30
the Brand's customers, right? We want to make their, we want
13:33
to have less friction as little friction as possible when
13:36
they're going through the login and registration process because
13:38
they're not there to Login and register their there to do, you
13:40
know, something with that particular brand.
13:43
So we want to make sure that we are not the roadblock.
13:46
We are facilitating a forgettable experience for them
13:48
because they don't even realize it were there but it's also
13:52
forgettable for our customers when they deploy us a lot of
13:56
times when you're putting in big enterprise software, it's a big
13:59
lawn, painful process and we want to make sure that that
14:01
process is not something that people remember forever about
14:04
how terrible was they forget about it because it was so easy.
14:08
So again, And we think, you know, identity and Workforce are
14:12
do different things and that's why we focus on customer size of
14:16
things. And, and that's because we learn
14:18
so much at the BD or the the business Enterprise, the
14:21
workforce. I am that, we worked in trying
14:24
to force those use cases, that that platform is built into into
14:29
customer. Use cases, was very, very
14:32
difficult, very, very expensive, very, very painful.
14:34
And so that's why Keith, and Steven decided say we can do
14:37
customer in a different Way that's much easier and much
14:40
better for the market customers. And so you're a VP of product
14:45
which is an awesome Title by the way.
14:47
And if I wasn't watching Breaking re watching Breaking
14:49
Bad, the moment I would have different thoughts on that.
14:51
But what does a VP of product do in an identity company?
14:56
I mean, obviously got the user experience side of things, but
14:59
is there, is there more to it than that?
15:00
I would say. A better question is, what
15:03
doesn't PP product to, especially in a start-up?
15:07
Like, we are. So I wear a lot of hats.
15:09
That's so, but I, you know, I run the design and documentation
15:14
team. So the, you know, the, the
15:15
customer experience when it comes to the product and the
15:20
documentation of that product. So I work closely with
15:23
engineering, obviously to set priorities helps translate those
15:27
customer needs into feature, just definitions for, you know,
15:31
engineering teams, make sure that we're trying to get as much
15:35
good customer information into the The engineering teams
15:39
themselves so that they can be autonomous and make really,
15:41
really good decisions. As opposed to me, making all the
15:44
decisions and being the bottleneck for that.
15:45
I'm a big believer of getting the information to them as much
15:48
as possible so that they could be autonomous, we do that, I do
15:52
demos I you know I work in. I do Solutions, engineering for
15:57
customers. As we're going through, boy, do
16:01
analyst meetings, I do vendor management, coordinate,
16:05
marketing, and customer success in four releases, Poof
16:10
marketing, I do podcasts and write blog posts as well.
16:13
So, again, I do a lot, a lot of stuff, but especially since
16:17
we're a start-up. So that's my that's my day to
16:20
day. It could be anything which is
16:21
what I love about it. Really?
16:22
Yeah, it sounds like a fun game. Kind of get to dip your toes
16:24
into a lot of different pools. I'm curious about the analyst
16:28
type of things, I guess, from a, like a briefing perspective of
16:32
in my imagination and run something like hey, you know
16:36
what, analysts XYZ, whatever company you have.
16:38
To be from, you know, we'd like to kind of give you a briefing
16:41
on or maybe they might ask for it of the products that what are
16:45
some of the questions that they ask, and I am Thunder like
16:49
yourself, you know, dudes? It's is it feature-based, is it,
16:53
you know, kind of run the gamut any kind of pull back a little
16:57
bit. It's probably a little more
16:58
Feature Feature based than I would like it to be honestly
17:01
because, you know, features are like the, the trees.
17:04
And, you know, really I feel like when you're talking to
17:06
analyst, you should be talked about the Forest.
17:07
Right? You know, like you know what are
17:08
The high-level problems and what are the things that we need to
17:11
be doing, you know, at a high level to, you know, to address
17:15
those issues in the market and then what's coming in the
17:18
future, things like that. But then when they get down to,
17:20
it's like, oh, if you don't have this thing then we're going to
17:22
Mark you you know down because it's like well that's a feature
17:25
that our customers. Don't even need at this point or
17:27
we're not even getting demands for that.
17:29
So it's a little weird when we talk to analysts because, you
17:31
know, they expect certain things that just maybe not isn't really
17:34
relevant for our context, but they'll didn't you in the report
17:37
for that? That's interesting.
17:39
I think, I wonder how much statement, you know, a statement
17:42
like that, where our customers are asking for it and it's sort
17:45
of a use case or a feature that really doesn't have rounding in
17:50
the real world how that influences, you know, both the
17:55
analyst thinking. And obviously, you're not on
17:56
that side of it. But on the product side when you
17:59
hear things like that is that you think like okay well I guess
18:01
we probably should think about maybe putting that in or do you
18:04
stick to your convictions and say?
18:06
Well, I don't think that's important because we want to
18:08
focus. Asan.
18:08
These three or four or five other core functionalities.
18:12
I didn't make that balance. Yeah, I think I have to consider
18:17
a lot of different things. When we talk about, you know,
18:19
making product decisions and roadmap dishes and things like
18:21
that, an analyst is just one of them, obviously, you know, we,
18:24
you know, the customers and Prospects conversations that we
18:26
have are really key to all of that as well as what we, you
18:31
know, as a company believe. And and you know what our
18:35
strategy and go-to-market are so that you know, there's a lot of
18:37
influences. To, you know, the product
18:39
decisions that we make, you know, how we're going to go to
18:41
market. You know what, you know what,
18:43
industries, we're going to focus on, you know.
18:45
And you know what analysts are saying about what's going on in
18:48
the future? Because you know, analysts you
18:50
know, things are important. You know, we actually were
18:52
recognized as leader and Forester and it's because I
18:55
think our vision for customer identity and the vision that
19:01
that that analyst has is very, very very, very similar.
19:04
And so I think that's good validation from our point of
19:06
view that, you know, we're Doing the right things, moving right
19:09
direction. So Larry, given that you had
19:12
that good review from force or mean.
19:14
How impactful was that for you guys?
19:16
I mean, is it important to be at the leader side of an analysis?
19:23
Absolutely, especially a Forester one.
19:25
Apparently, that's really influential in in Europe and you
19:30
know, about things outside the United States.
19:31
So we've actually had we've actually had two customers that
19:35
were directly. One of them was in in And
19:38
because of that, and the other one was, you know, a pretty big
19:43
step in their decision-making to go with us.
19:46
So we've had and of course, that's really kind of blown up
19:49
our pipeline as well since that was announced in November.
19:52
So it's we've had good success with that.
19:55
I saw that report came out and I mean, you guys kind of came out
19:59
of nowhere to be all the way at the upper, right?
20:03
Which kind of like, you know, for a lot of people are probably
20:06
like, who's the strong fast. City next to like you know
20:10
whatever it was like octave Microsoft or what?
20:13
Or I don't remember Wing em and rack for truck.
20:17
Gotcha, both the Thomas Bravo company's so it's based its us
20:20
and Thomas Bravo like duking it out up there.
20:24
There you go. I think they I think they got
20:27
you by a few pounds. Yeah.
20:32
So let's talk a little about, I guess user does user experience
20:37
and design and Journeys and things like that.
20:39
And let's start a very high level.
20:42
What's wrong with user experiences today and identity
20:46
and access management know where he use cases are flows, you're
20:49
like, oh, that's terrible, we've got to fix that.
20:52
Well, I'll tell you what, they're much better than they
20:55
used to be right. You know we've collectively
20:58
learned as an industry you know, a lot since you know the 60s
21:02
when we first started having passwords on digital systems
21:05
right? But I think the I mean down to
21:10
fundamentals I mean I'm going to just going to you know come out
21:12
and say it's like it's frickin passwords like passwords are so
21:17
bad. If somebody did a human factors
21:19
review of passwords and how to use them effectively for humans,
21:22
it just it would never pass the test because the only way
21:26
passwords are secure is if you have a unique, lung complex, non
21:31
memorable, characters, string of characters, on every single
21:35
thing you need to log into and this is just fundamentally at
21:38
odds with the capabilities of humans, right?
21:41
But yet this is what we force everybody to do, right?
21:44
So and you know you know the solve the problems that we have
21:49
with passwords being insecure. A lot of them is a lot.
21:52
The reasons that pathogen secures because a human behavior
21:55
not that you know passwords are inherently insecure.
21:57
If you you know do all the things you need to do to make
21:59
them secure but humans just aren't compatible with that.
22:03
So and then like all the misinformation around passwords
22:06
and what's the best practices is, you know, isn't helpful
22:10
either, you know, you still here on a regular basis that, you
22:15
know, you should change your password regularly leg.
22:17
I complain about this in my kids school all the time because it's
22:19
like they have this thing on the wall, says, back.
22:22
Good password, you know practices and one of them is
22:26
change it regularly. It's like actually no that's
22:28
actually not, right? That is that one of the things,
22:30
in fact, missed even you know, recommends Don't force people to
22:34
do that because that forces people into bad habits that
22:37
make, oh, you're that Sperry even worse, right?
22:40
Oh, yeah. I know.
22:40
I am that parent. So, you know, so that's one
22:46
thing. And then another thing that just
22:48
drives me crazy and and really is a debt.
22:52
Little to experience is like when an your identifiers not
22:56
something that's unique to you, right?
22:58
Like your your email address or a phone number, you've got a lot
23:02
of Legacy companies and you know, just going to be General
23:04
using like just you know random you know usernames and then if
23:08
they're persons user name isn't available, then they have to
23:11
change it. And then when they come back,
23:12
they don't remember what it was. And, and like organizations.
23:16
They only see, you know, themselves and it's like, well,
23:19
you know, it's not a problem for us because, you know, we just
23:22
You know, this is our thing. But this is like you're not
23:24
thinking you're thinking about your company but not all of the
23:27
other things that a user has to log into and into, you know, to
23:33
live their lives these days. And so you don't you don't see
23:36
that and so they make these decisions like oh yeah we'll
23:39
make a usernames just you know, whatever but don't let him use
23:44
emails or their phone number and then you know then people have
23:48
problems remembering what they were so those are two of the big
23:51
things that are just Really, really hard to get rid of.
23:54
I mean, obviously there's some, you know, things about passwords
23:57
that are, you know, we've had some good updates on going
24:00
password, list lately with, you know, Fido to and web off and
24:04
and all the major vendors being able to do interoperability with
24:08
those. I think that's going to have a
24:09
huge impact on on the experience of logging in is just getting
24:14
rid of passwords basing on Fido to based on devices that you
24:17
have with the Biometrics and things like that.
24:19
I'm with you on that. I mean.
24:22
So Larry you mentioned, you were excited which for Bessie to take
24:26
your user experience, focus and put it on customer.
24:31
I am. And I wanted to ask you a
24:33
question about, like, what's different between customer.
24:36
I am be to see. See I am versus bde Workforce
24:42
identity to meet used to be a stark contrast, maybe 10 years
24:46
ago, 20 years ago, where it was like, you know, for our
24:48
customers. We have to have a very custom
24:51
experience that Makes it very easy for them to do business
24:55
with us and our Workforce. Like we can feed them dog food,
25:00
the meat it because we write their paychecks, right?
25:04
And but I found that there's been a pretty big shift on the
25:09
bde side where it's kind of not acceptable in as many cases as
25:14
it used to be and I think it's pretty significant.
25:17
In fact, I was logging into a cloud application today.
25:22
And it asked me for a sign in for my company signed in really
25:25
how inconvenient? Why doesn't it just recognize me
25:29
as the person that I am using the same device that uses every
25:32
day and just let me in. You know, so like even my
25:38
perspective as part of the workforce as change that my
25:42
expectation now is I shouldn't have to login.
25:47
I should just just recognize I am who I am and let me in and
25:51
that's really where it should go.
25:53
But my expectation, the past with being an employee is like
25:56
04, how nice that it's the same username password and it will
26:00
have 50 different usernames and password.
26:03
So what are your thoughts on the kind of those differences
26:05
nowadays? Yeah and I think I think what
26:08
your you know what you're talking about is really
26:10
indicative of the entire, you know, user experience industry,
26:15
you know. And It's all about really
26:17
incentives. You know, back in the early
26:21
2000s, when you ex started to you know, become you know, a
26:27
real thing you could see the the effect of doing good ux on the
26:33
bottom line. Right.
26:34
And, you know, it's all started with, you know, like Amazon and
26:37
and and, and e-commerce. And people abandoning shopping
26:41
carts because they didn't know what they were.
26:42
Didn't know how to complete the the sale or they came up across
26:45
some barrier that they couldn't get past all that.
26:48
And so user experience techniques allowed us to make
26:52
better experiences for that. And then, you know, one of the
26:56
big thinkers in user experience Jared spool has this article
26:59
about the the six billion dollar button and it was this button
27:03
that was designed wrong and Amazon like changed it and was
27:06
able to like you know, if they were able to you know increase
27:10
their revenue by six billion dollars because they made this,
27:12
you know, one single change and that kind of impact of, you know
27:16
user On the, you know, the shopping experience was huge,
27:21
right? So then, you know, you X became
27:23
really, really big. But, you know, when you talk
27:25
about enterprise software, we've got two different people.
27:27
We've got the person that's buying the software and the
27:29
person that's using the software and often their their goals and
27:35
motivations are not aligned. So and who has the, you know,
27:38
who has the authority of the person buying the software.
27:41
And so we've got, you know, we've all been in working for
27:45
Enterprises for a long time. We've had Experience has a
27:47
really, really bad because there was never a focus on employee
27:51
experience, that is changing. Now, there's a lot of focus on
27:55
employee experience of it, especially in very, very large
27:58
organizations where they have formal employee experience
28:01
programs and their they partner with it.
28:03
Making sure that you know, when you on board, you know, some
28:06
consultant that's not even ever going to come into an office, we
28:08
can make an experience that makes them feel.
28:11
Welcome to get them up to speed really quickly and what they
28:14
need to do, get them access to all of their And and all that.
28:18
And so and then they do, you know, do you know, play
28:22
engagement surveys and have programs to increase that
28:24
engagement? And so Enterprise, you know,
28:29
employee experience is something, is this like next
28:31
thing that people know? If I can keep my employees that
28:35
cost me less money because I don't have to train a new
28:37
person. I don't, you know, lose the
28:40
effect news's of the the productivity of this person when
28:42
they leave all that stuff. And so as you know, the The the
28:47
bottom line gets, you know, starts going up.
28:49
The stack people are starting to realize that.
28:51
Yeah, actually user experience is really important for
28:53
Enterprise Workforce to because it actually saves the money in
28:57
the end. They've started the figure this
28:58
out. And so now user experiences is a
29:00
part of Enterprise, you know, Workforce experience as well.
29:06
I wish it was getting better faster, especially on the
29:08
Enterprise side because I feel like and we talked about David
29:11
Mahdi about this last week and he said it and I think I've said
29:15
it before to it's like it's a Audience, right?
29:18
You're dealing with workers where it's basically the
29:21
company's way or the highway go find different job you like the
29:24
way we do it in the real world? Most workers do not have the
29:30
ability to really influence identity and access management
29:34
within the organization other than complaining.
29:36
Now, if enough people complain then yes.
29:38
I think things start to get better, but I love the fact that
29:42
it is getting better. I just wish it would move faster
29:45
and become more of a thought pattern within I am programs and
29:51
cisos and cios and I think I'm starting to see it.
29:54
I just don't know if I say enough of it because it's still
29:56
still feel still very much to me that it's good enough mentality
30:01
versus do we want to really have a Best in Class employee
30:05
experience? What does that even mean?
30:07
Right, but I wish you would get better faster.
30:11
Larry, I wanted to move on to another question because a lot
30:14
of feedback that I've Gotten I think Jeff has gotten in terms
30:18
of the podcast is that, you know, not having one.
30:23
Common vocabulary is one of the biggest problems that we run
30:27
into in digital identity, your identity, access management.
30:31
And at a very fundamental level, we talked about bde B2B and b2c
30:36
all the time, I think everybody knows what bde is but, you know,
30:39
for me it's not just your employees but it's your
30:42
contractors, it's potentially your guest users or There are
30:47
some combination but it's not like large companies that that
30:51
partner with your organization. But there is some gray area
30:55
there, right? Then there's the b2c which, you
30:59
know, I think of as, you know, maybe they're they're your
31:04
customers, but if your government organization, they're
31:08
probably citizens, or if you are an association or nonprofit,
31:13
they are your constituents. But PDP seems to me.
31:19
Like, it's this gray area where things get thrown into it.
31:23
People are sure. Always exactly what it means.
31:25
So when you use B2B, what's your definition?
31:29
Yeah. Absolutely.
31:30
I'm fact, I think I see b2c and B2B being very similar because
31:36
they're both that be in B2B is customer, right?
31:40
It's just a business customer as opposed to an individual, right?
31:44
And so from my point of view be to Be really means you're
31:47
selling to a customer, but that customer could have multiple
31:51
users that are involved with that particular account, right?
31:55
And so that can come in, you know, many forms that can become
31:58
in form of, you know, just, you know, selling enterprise
32:02
software, say you say, well, you know, security software, and SAS
32:05
application to a security team in the business, right?
32:09
So, you know, it's more than one person needs access because you
32:12
have a security team. So you're, it's basically in my
32:15
mind, I think of B2B As you're selling to it's a customer.
32:18
They just happen to have more than one user.
32:21
And so there's some collaborative things that have
32:23
to happen and things like that and you know, different
32:26
permissions to like you were talking about you knowing a
32:29
single user that person has, you know, one, you know, you know,
32:33
one permission level for their individual account in B2B, you
32:39
got to have, you can have multiple, you know, roles in
32:41
that be to be, you know, maybe you have a role that can manage
32:44
the users that are a part of that business.
32:46
Then maybe you have another role that just has access to that
32:49
account. So for me, B to B, the B is cut
32:53
as is really just to see with multiple people and all of the
32:56
things that comes with selling and interacting with a business
33:00
versus an individual. Yeah.
33:02
And I think, you know, when it comes to some of these common
33:05
use cases or use cases, when it comes to be, to be versus b2c, I
33:11
think that's where some of the differentiation comes out.
33:14
So I was going to ask you a couple of areas.
33:16
As in if they're kind of the same that's fine.
33:20
But the first one that comes to mind is like on-boarding and
33:23
off-boarding. It seems like this is an area
33:25
for user Journeys. At least four be just b2c B2B,
33:31
might be a different story. Yeah, absolutely.
33:34
There you kind of have the same, some of the same problems that
33:37
you have with, you know, with Enterprise, right?
33:42
You need that you've got, you know, joiners, levers and
33:44
movers. So there's sort of A governance
33:47
thing that's involved with with you know B2B as well and
33:50
typically you know you'd have to be able to integrate, you know,
33:52
via orchestration with, you know, whatever they're using for
33:54
governance so that you can, you know, remove those users or
33:58
change their access at various parts of the lifecycle of that
34:01
particular employee. So, so there's definitely some,
34:05
you know, some very some overlaps there between B2B and
34:09
b2c B2B just from the, the, you know, the governance side of
34:12
things. You know, as far as onboarding,
34:15
I mean, the identity proofing seems to be a large Trend within
34:20
industry. Now, getting people to use some
34:23
kind of like government-issued identifier identification card
34:28
and marrying, it up to kind of a live selfie.
34:31
Are you seeing a lot of traction for that?
34:33
A lot of customers who were saying that's got to be part of
34:36
our onboarding process? Yes.
34:38
Absolutely. Especially when it comes to
34:40
healthcare and financials we are getting a lot of that.
34:43
We built document ID verification into our product as
34:48
a first class citizen so you can not to be a commercially.
34:52
But you can buy a product without having to transact with
34:53
somebody who does identity verification.
34:56
We take care of all those relationships for you can just
34:58
buy that as a as an add-on. But, yeah, and we built that
35:02
because we were seeing a lot of interest in people doing that,
35:06
especially, you know, you know, after covid were every, but
35:10
everybody's remote, you know, how do I know that personally?
35:12
Other side is the who they say they are.
35:13
They are, you know, that became a lot more of a problem, once
35:16
people, you know, stop going into 2 into physical spaces.
35:20
So, yeah, we're seeing a lot of uptake on.
35:22
That's why we built that in as a first class citizen or product.
35:27
Yeah, I'm also wondering about the next use case was was
35:31
pastoralists and I'm kind of wondering, you know, it seems
35:35
like there are a lot of companies that have built
35:38
pastoralist capabilities into their product.
35:41
Some organizations have taken that approach Then there's
35:45
smaller firms. That specialize in pastoralism
35:48
they can bolt onto products and provide that password lets
35:51
capability. What's your perspective on that?
35:54
What's the, what's what makes the most sense from a password
35:59
this point of view? I think we it's going to come
36:03
from demand from from users, right?
36:05
Like a lot of what we do comes from that demand.
36:09
Like I was just having a conversation with RCT or their
36:11
day about verifiable credentials.
36:13
It's like it's a thing. Not a lot of people are using it
36:17
yet. Now, we know we've had a couple
36:19
of news stories recently with with clear and Linkedin now
36:23
doing verifiable credentials and on LinkedIn that, you know, you
36:28
are indeed, you know, work at Microsoft or something like
36:31
that, right? And so I think a lot of that
36:34
going to come from, you know, demand from users to be able to
36:38
like, you know, especially you know the, you know, you talked
36:42
about like smartphones and The amazing transformation that has
36:45
had on our culture and, and people in the, you know, and all
36:49
of that. And just the fact that, you
36:52
know, we have these biometric ways of logging in that doesn't
36:55
people didn't think about it anymore.
36:57
I don't think about that. I'm unlocking my phone when I
37:00
when I'm unlocking it and I'm authenticating because I don't
37:03
even think about because it's just skin in my face and it was
37:05
it's me right? And so when we get that demand
37:10
for that really easy experience, I have my phone and then when I
37:12
can't get that same thing when I am going to, you know,
37:17
target.com to buy something like I'm, you know, I can go to
37:20
Amazon to do that or I can go somewhere else that has a better
37:22
experience, right? So in the consumer world, it's
37:25
very easy to go from, you know, one vendor to another vendor
37:28
based upon experience. And so, once the demand gets,
37:33
what's becomes more commonplace for like, hey, that just, you
37:35
know, I can log in with my face anywhere.
37:38
Then why can't I do it here? And then, that's going to be a
37:40
barrier for people to Even use that service.
37:46
Another area that we've talked a lot about on the podcast that
37:49
one query on was delegated Administration.
37:53
So this is something that's used pretty heavily in the B2B space.
37:57
So you have a large organization that is a customer or dealer or
38:03
some organization that that interacts with you and having
38:07
somebody from that customer organization, manage the
38:12
identities of the other folks that work there become
38:15
responsible. For I think kind of always felt
38:18
like this is something that is underserved in the, I am space.
38:22
Why doesn't say why does somebody come out with a package
38:26
or why aren't there are several packages competing for how to do
38:30
delegated Administration? What's your perspective on that?
38:35
Yeah, so we, you know, with with B2B customers that's almost
38:40
table Stakes anymore like, you know, like you know, I am say
38:43
I'm a security company and I'm Like, you know, buying software
38:47
from the SAS vendor. And if I can't manage my own
38:50
users then that's a that's a huge pain, right?
38:52
I don't want to do, couldn't get a ticket to add this new person,
38:54
right? I want to be able to control
38:55
that to myself because I you know, I work for this business
38:58
and I know the business the best and I know who should be here
39:00
and who shouldn't be here. So you know, enabling that a
39:04
delegation of that Administration I think is hugely
39:07
important to be successful in the B2B World in customer
39:10
identity right now. Like I don't think there's and
39:13
so we've taken the approach of like We are embracing that.
39:17
And so for on an organization organization basis, we actually
39:20
have hosted component user management portal that we can
39:26
grant permissions to member of that organization, to be able to
39:30
log into and do all the management stuff that we can do
39:33
in our admin console, in a separate portal that they have
39:36
access to. And then, we can also, of
39:38
course, you know, hook that all up via apis so that they can,
39:42
you know, embedded into their own experiences.
39:44
And it's really, you know, No, I don't, you know, it's, I think
39:47
it's going to be table Stakes for any sort of B2B.
39:49
See, I am in the future, to be able to support that delegated
39:52
Administration and it's not just the user management, it's mostly
39:57
user management. There's other nicety things too.
39:58
Like if you can have somebody configure their own Enterprise
40:02
SSO, so you don't have to put in a support ticket little things
40:05
like that, we even enable people to, you know, change the, the
40:09
MFA or the authentication levels.
40:12
So like maybe you have a security team.
40:15
And they log into the all their software, and they can only use
40:18
you be Keys. We can support something like
40:19
that, for just that organization into a that SAS application.
40:23
So, lots of different things when it comes to delegate
40:25
Administration that are and I think will become more and more
40:28
important for. See, I am vendors in the future.
40:32
You know I think the so back on the beat in Seaside something
40:36
you see all the time is like log in with your Facebook login with
40:40
your Twitter seems like maybe the players are different.
40:43
So now let's log in with Google Microsoft or Apple ID, I mean
40:48
there's the most common ones I see these days but how important
40:52
is that spaces? It's just considered, you know,
40:56
are we already figured that out move on or is that something
40:59
that from Product standpoint is something that you see, as, like
41:06
continuing to evolve, it's definitely continuing to evolve.
41:10
I think, you know, you pointed out that the fact that it's in
41:12
used to be more social, you know, social things like
41:15
Facebook and Twitter. I think that's becoming less and
41:19
less something that people do, and it's more, like, you know,
41:22
oh, I have Gmail and I can just log in with, you know, Google.
41:25
I already have an account that then, you know, I as a consumer,
41:28
Google seems, you know, like a big company and pretty secure.
41:31
So I Kyle trust it. I think maybe there's less truck
41:34
and trust and Facebook as the years go on but you know you
41:38
still going to have a you know a segment of the population that
41:42
you know, are still going to do that.
41:45
And then that runs into the problem too, like we talked
41:46
about is like consistency across all the things I have to log
41:49
into. If like, if I have, you know,
41:50
30% of the things I log in to have Facebook but nobody else
41:54
does then it's like, well, do I want didn't then like, you know,
41:58
how do I manage that as a user like like, oh, did I?
42:02
Log into this using Facebook last time, I don't remember,
42:05
that's when I check it and then I accidentally create a new
42:07
account, you know. We kind of helped prevent that
42:10
by we do like an account linking thing where we can detect.
42:13
If somebody does that and say hey we gotta we have an email
42:16
address that matches that Facebook account you want to
42:18
link the two, right? But you can run into some really
42:21
bad experiences by you know, good intentions of trying to
42:24
make things easier for people. But then there's all these other
42:27
unintended consequences that can come up based upon that.
42:30
But we still see, you know People, you know, asking for
42:35
Enterprise, you know, you know, or social logins but like, in
42:40
Europe, for instance, a lot of them have, like, IDs that are
42:44
that can be tied to their digital identity, and then they
42:47
can log in Via, like, sort of like an Enterprise login, but
42:52
it's specific to the that country and that country is ID.
42:55
So it's really important. Like if you're in Europe, be
42:58
able to integrate with that and be able to, you know, use
43:00
somebody's country ID. To have them log in as well.
43:04
And then you don't have to do that.
43:07
The if you have identity verification issues right there,
43:10
you can that kind of gets past some of those because you're
43:13
based on already basing it on the country's ID.
43:16
I don't think we'll ever get there in the United States
43:17
because there's too much pushback and privacy and having
43:21
a national ID and all that stuff.
43:23
But in Europe, they're already embracing things like that.
43:26
May I ask you a design question because I am always curious as
43:29
to what is the appropriate number of logon?
43:33
Boxes should be him. I have indications screen.
43:36
Is it to? Is it 3?
43:38
Is there a magic number? Like what if I'm a?
43:41
If I man, I am program manager out there and I'm trying to
43:43
figure out, you know, what is my identification experience look
43:46
like is their guidance, you know, rule of thumb, maybe from
43:49
a design perspective to say, you really shouldn't have more than
43:53
x number of things on the screen.
43:55
Once a man like most design questions.
43:59
That is a big old. Depends.
44:01
It depends right. The the best number is 0, right?
44:07
That the application. Just knows who I am based upon
44:10
whatever signals are going on. Whether it's, I have a
44:12
remembered device or, you know, or you know, the the biometric
44:17
or the, you know, the having both can combination, which is,
44:20
you know, what, you know, Fidos, sort of built upon.
44:24
But yeah, so, Oh, it's the optimal amount is zero now.
44:28
And the, the real answer is you add in, as only as much as
44:33
needed, to be able to, you know, get the security level that
44:35
you're looking for. So there's also a debate like
44:38
and we hear this a lot. It's like, well, do you know
44:40
we've got, why do we have username on one screen and then
44:44
password on the next, right? It's like, well, and there's
44:48
like prevent work force attacks, right?
44:49
Is that kind of like the intention is supposed to break
44:51
it up, somehow. Oh, there's yeah, there, that's
44:53
one of the reasons breaking. You know, mitigating Brute Force
44:57
attacks, not eliminating but making it harder, I'm doing
44:59
things like routing you to the right log in experience based
45:01
upon who you are because it may be, it may be, it's a password
45:05
is flow. Like well then, why am I putting
45:06
in a password in here? Because?
45:08
Well, we don't know if it's a password of float until I know
45:10
who you are, and then we could say, oh, okay, then pluck
45:13
password, you know, so there's reasons to break that up right
45:16
now, thinking like I'm answering a lot of AI questions, you know,
45:20
pick the cat wearing the pirate hat is my new favorite one that
45:23
I've seen as I've going through the Authentication?
45:25
Screens. Oh, I saw one of those the other
45:27
day, the, the recaptcha where it was like, asking me, like, pick
45:30
all the ones that are vinyl and everything was a circle.
45:34
I saw that same 12. Yeah, I was like, what is this
45:37
now? What if I didn't know what vinyl
45:38
was. Yeah, it's like it.
45:40
I know it's I'm old. So I know it's a record but like
45:44
like is a 12 13 year-old going to know that that what a vinyl
45:47
is, my daughter would. But well, that's what I was
45:50
wondering with the it depends question was or answer was so
45:55
Are you doing like Focus? Like the use of focus groups?
45:59
I mean, it seems to me like that's what big organizations
46:03
will do with their e-commerce environment.
46:05
You know, have focus groups come in, but I think another
46:09
situation was probably just comes down to what's the best
46:12
practice? Well, I think, and it's focus.
46:17
Groups are not a good way to evaluate user experiences.
46:23
The best way to evaluate a user experience is actually Actually
46:25
sit a representative user in front of the user interface.
46:29
Give them a goal and a task, or it's actually better if they
46:32
already have their own goal in tasks in that and then watch
46:35
them, right? And then watch multiple people
46:39
from, you know, different personas and understand that.
46:42
So, I would say, going back to the, your last question, there's
46:47
this myth in ux, it's like well, let's click says better less
46:50
clicks is better. Less clicks is better, and
46:52
that's actually not true. What is you need to make sure.
46:57
Is that every step that a user is going through that user feels
47:02
like they're getting closer to their goal right now, you can
47:06
take that to an extreme and then eventually somebody's going to
47:08
get frustrated because it's like, you know, ten different
47:10
steps that doesn't seem to make sense but having two steps
47:14
versus one step, one step is not necessarily better to steps is
47:18
okay? As long as the user still keeps
47:19
you know feeling like they are moving and progressing towards
47:23
their goal. So an Optimum number of steps.
47:27
I don't think there is, it's really just a it's a balance of
47:30
security versus usability as, you know, security always is.
47:35
And the, you know, we have to make that balance depending, you
47:39
know, and contextually on who the user population is.
47:42
What the product is, what security levels are, what's the
47:45
risk level of that particular Enterprise.
47:46
So all that has to go into the, the decision of how many steps
47:51
is this. And you brought up another pet
47:53
peeve of mine, which is forgetting which login
47:57
mechanism, I used to get into a resource, right?
48:00
Did I sign up with email? Did I use Google that?
48:02
I use LinkedIn, you know, whatever it may be.
48:05
And you mentioned this idea of kind of profile like you behind
48:07
the scenes, what you think is great.
48:09
I'm going to tell you a story because I'm going to call out
48:11
who burned the carpet here, because I have struggled with
48:16
Ubers profile management system for almost a decade.
48:21
I think. Here's the situation.
48:24
I was an Uber Rider signed up for an account, no problems.
48:28
Then I said, hey, you know what? What's this Uber driving thing?
48:30
Like so I was like, let me try it once to just see kind of, you
48:32
know, what it's like. So I drove once for Uber.
48:36
And now my profile, as an Uber person, is I have a driver
48:41
profile and I have a rider profile, but I cannot manage any
48:45
of that information. I can't change my picture.
48:48
I can't change parts of my name etcetera, without having to Get
48:52
in contact with Uber and they don't seem to have a way to say,
48:56
look, I'm never, I'm not going to drive for Uber anymore, so
48:58
they don't have the seem to have a way for them to kill off my
49:03
driver account without also killing off my writer account.
49:07
Now, I've got a very, you know, if I have to I will kill it off.
49:11
That's fine. But here's the other problem is,
49:14
if I were to re-sign up, I couldn't use the same email
49:16
address, right? So I can't create, you know, I'm
49:19
stuck in a catch my juice. Okay, well I don't mind.
49:21
Go ahead and pull it away. Just re-sign up and just kind of
49:24
clear things out. But what do you mean?
49:26
I can't use the same email address.
49:27
I'm not going to create a new email address to sign up for
49:30
ruber. That's stupid.
49:31
So now I think well I don't have this problem with lift, I'm
49:34
going to go use a lift because I feel like it's more.
49:37
I have more control over my Persona within, you know, that
49:40
are within that app and the ecosphere.
49:43
Now, politics aside, whatever may be right.
49:45
I'm talking purely about the user experience.
49:49
I have a really hard time with boober, I don't have that
49:52
problem. Um, with a competitor and me as
49:54
a consumer. It makes me want to use their
49:56
competitor. In this case, lifts, much more
49:59
often than Hoover. Now, Uber, if you're listening
50:02
and you can fix your stuff, please do so, because I would
50:07
love to be able to just manage my own profile and somehow, you
50:11
know, divest my writer profile away.
50:14
But since I can't do that now it's costing you more money
50:18
because every time I need to make a change to my account,
50:20
guess what? I have to reach out to support.
50:21
And oh, by the the way it had provide like eight different
50:24
pieces of information to validate my identity border over
50:26
email, it's really frustrating. And I just wonder if that is a
50:31
scenario that when you're talking, you know, for example,
50:33
with clients and animals and things like that, that scenario
50:36
comes up is this really frustrating for me, and it
50:39
really makes me kind of bitter about it.
50:42
Yeah, a very smart person. Once said that the experience is
50:49
the product. And then your case right there
50:53
that I think that just really kind of nails that statement
50:57
home so much. And if you don't understand what
51:01
the experience of your product is, then what are you even
51:03
doing? You know, like you don't even
51:04
you don't even know what your product is.
51:06
If you if you don't, if you're not regularly watching your
51:09
customers, use your product. And in my mind because of you
51:12
know that statement there, it's like if you don't see what users
51:15
are doing what they're getting frustrated with, I had so many
51:18
just like, you know, back and forth with Engineers about like
51:21
Oh, that's stupid. We don't need to worry about
51:23
that detail that doesn't, you know who cares about that?
51:25
And then I showed them, you know, five videos of customers
51:28
like struggling with that very thing.
51:30
And it's this it's this issue of its it's just another part of
51:36
the human condition where it's very difficult for you.
51:41
And I to put yourself in the shoes of somebody that doesn't
51:45
have the knowledge that we do, right?
51:47
It's very difficult it's called The Curse of knowledge.
51:49
It's very difficult to to Unknow what, you know, so you can get
51:53
better empathy about what this person is struggling with.
51:57
So, in user experience, that's why we do so much user testing
52:00
and user observation. Because that's what gets past
52:02
that cognitive bias that we have of our own knowledge.
52:06
And that's how we, you know, sort of make better products as,
52:09
you know, making sure that people who are making these
52:11
product decisions are able to you know, watch users, use and
52:14
struggle and then understand what their goals and motivations
52:17
are and where they get frustrated and then we all can
52:19
make better decisions about. You know what?
52:21
What the product is. And so your case Jeff, where you
52:23
have those two accounts that maybe just like an edge case
52:26
that, you know, it's like, oh well, that's just an edge case.
52:29
Not a lot of people do that. So we're not going to worry
52:31
about that, because we made a whole bunch of architectural
52:33
decisions that makes that really difficult to problem to fix.
52:37
So I think but, you know, you always have to prioritize.
52:42
But again, yeah. The, the experiences, the
52:44
product, and you need to watch your users, watch your use your
52:47
product. Otherwise, you don't know what
52:48
your product really is, what effects that you have on the
52:50
people using. It.
52:53
What I love about what Jeff just said was that it showed that I'm
52:56
not the only complainer on the podcast, but what I'm about to
53:00
say next week about that, I am the biggest complainer on the
53:03
podcast, which is my gripe is everything, that's a brings in
53:09
the way, I talk into the user experience, which is everybody
53:16
seems to be moving toward these chat Bots and they suck.
53:20
I mean, let's be honest, nobody wants to try to get their
53:24
solution from chatbot. You, you wouldn't mind chatting
53:27
with a person, I'm not busy for you because there are some good
53:30
ones out there. There's no.
53:31
But I will agree that most are terrible.
53:33
No Jim you have to just contracts this very elaborate
53:36
prompt that will get you the right answer.
53:39
But if you don't know at the prompt right there that just
53:41
gives you vanilla stuff. It's even better is like first
53:44
off, I hate picking up the phone calling.
53:47
I'd rather use an app for everything.
53:50
When you do pick up the phone and then you get, I'm in Ai and
53:53
I understand complete sentences. And I would like to, and then
53:56
you say something like, I'd like to speak to a human.
53:59
I'm sorry. I didn't understand, we had to
54:01
say it's like, okay, you can't understand complete sentences.
54:05
Anyway. What strikes me is like I keep
54:08
hearing about oh I shouldn't take over, it's like we're
54:11
Terminator. 2 is coming next week and like these chat Bots,
54:16
that are Ai and everywhere that I see that as a, I absolutely.
54:20
Ox, and I really wonder if it's going to, then the other thing I
54:25
heard today was, you know, they're they're building an AI
54:28
version of Microsoft Word. Microsoft Word is such a pain in
54:32
the butt to use nowadays, they moved everything around.
54:34
Like why not focus on making Microsoft Word easier to use
54:39
rather than some feature that? Yeah, but that's what they're
54:42
doing. I kind of feel like I don't
54:43
need. I love what Microsoft is doing
54:45
with introducing chat GPT and other open a you know, other AI
54:49
products into To it. I tested one out today is called
54:54
Jama and this isn't Microsoft, but the idea of being able to
54:57
create a presentation using a prompt and then using a i to
55:02
tell it what you want the slide to look like and having it do
55:05
that and make changes, I think that's fascinating.
55:08
I think it's not great for people who do that stuff day in
55:11
and day out and that's our primary job.
55:13
So that's something to be concerned about but like that
55:16
kind of stuff is an accelerator like being able to go into word
55:19
type in and out. Fine.
55:20
And then say convert this to a PowerPoint presentation and it
55:24
does whatever it needs to do. Right.
55:26
I think that's like time-savers stuff like that is going to be
55:28
really helpful. I think that's more valuable to
55:31
me right now then like a knowledge base because I still
55:35
think AI is not getting me, is not 100% accurate, enough of the
55:40
time to be trusted with results, but to do design shortcut, you
55:45
know, formatting type things. I love the idea of it, so I am
55:49
totally on board. Border that kind of stuff.
55:51
Yeah, I'm very interested in the space as well.
55:54
I think Jim you're right. And a lot of cases the the they
56:00
do suck right and I think we're in such a early phase of this.
56:04
This is like, you know, we you know I don't know a good analogy
56:09
for this like you know my your blackberry was like well I've no
56:14
that's a bad example. I'm trying to think of a good
56:17
example of something. You know that was just really
56:19
terrible at first but Everybody still used and then every it
56:22
got, you know, way way better. I think even just like the
56:24
regular phones cell phones in general where anything is really
56:27
cool. I can call anybody.
56:29
But you know, I can't really, you know, I the text messaging I
56:32
have to like, do with the, you know, the the T9 where you had
56:35
to type the numbers that would like convert it to like actual
56:38
letters and stuff like that, which was really terrible.
56:40
And it wouldn't get on the internet.
56:42
And the internet was really, really slow because it was 2G
56:44
and all that stuff. And then now we have a
56:46
transformational product that like, you has changed every one
56:48
of our lives, right? So I think, Think AI is in such
56:51
early such early stages right now.
56:55
There were there's a lot of stuff that sucks but I still
56:58
believe it's going to be transformational a
56:59
transformational technology and 10 years from now we're going to
57:01
be like wow I remember back and when we had to like you know do
57:04
XY and z and now and now we just have a I do it for us.
57:08
I think it's going to be transformational.
57:11
I'm in the the I have a dream' phase of, I see the promise.
57:16
I want it to be there and I can't wait for it.
57:20
So I'm willing to suffer through the pain of it and, you know,
57:23
kind of know that it's not perfect.
57:25
But again, maybe that's just the Leading Edge early adopter
57:29
personality that I have. Yeah.
57:30
And it's really good for those low stakes things, right.
57:34
Like if you're putting it in our Power Point presentation.
57:36
Oh yeah, put an outline, it puts out a presentation.
57:38
Okay, now I can go through it. It's like, okay, I'm just going
57:40
to change this because this wasn't Right?
57:41
And all that stuff. So you have to still have to
57:43
have somebody. Who knows what they're doing.
57:44
Be able to review that, maybe will have ai Bots.
57:47
That review are the the other a bike that's and then we can, you
57:50
know, have them. So that all my question then is
57:53
I think he'd be It could be naive to not think that AI is
57:58
going to have an impact and, you know, 20 years from now is doing
58:02
a lot of things that we aren't doing.
58:04
Say might be the term AI but it's basically technology.
58:10
My question is like, do you think the hype is overblown?
58:14
That AI is just going to destroy Humanity?
58:20
Because I mean that's that's like again, we've been under
58:23
great, so many different times by electricity indoor plumbing,
58:28
you know, R rated movies video games.
58:34
Yeah, I feel like this is we've been destroyed.
58:36
We bent the impending. Doom of man has come several
58:39
times before we're still here. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
58:43
I don't know. I don't I don't there.
58:45
I think there's some concern there that.
58:46
Absolutely, I think we should be cautious, you know there?
58:49
Because there is, you know, I mean, 10% of the people that
58:52
actually work on, you know, artificial intelligence think
58:58
that's absolutely a possibility. So that's a little scary when
59:01
the people that are actually in the no working on this.
59:04
And a ten percent of them think that it could absolutely could
59:06
do that. That's a little scary, but I
59:09
can't live my life thinking about that all the time.
59:11
So nothing I can do about that. All right, we went down the AI
59:16
Rabbit Hole. Once again, I feel like we end,
59:18
we're ending up there quite a bit.
59:19
So let's start to wrap up and let's go to a lighter note
59:21
because I feel like I need a palate.
59:24
Cleanser and and I pick something way out of left field
59:29
on this one. This is inspired by a Reddit
59:32
post that I saw the other day. What is the largest animal that
59:37
you think you could beat in a fight?
59:40
And we're talking, you know, one-on-one, you know, no weapons
59:43
or anything. Thing like that.
59:45
It's just you versus whatever animal you think and this was
59:50
inspired by a infographic. I saw that was I think the size
59:55
calls statista and it was basically a survey that they did
1:00:00
of Americans and Brits and they were shown a list of different
1:00:03
animals and they were asked how many, you know, what percentage
1:00:07
of Americans versus Brits do they think could take that
1:00:10
animal in a one by one. So, an example was a rat.
1:00:15
And surprisingly I don't only like 72% of people and Americans
1:00:22
thought that they could take a rat and sixty cents.
1:00:26
Let's call it like sixty six ish of Brits thought that they could
1:00:30
take a wrap on and one more on versus a grizzly, bear.
1:00:33
We're like 1% of Brits. So they could take a grizzly
1:00:38
bear and like let's call it like 5% of Americans.
1:00:43
Of course, a much more American Course right?
1:00:45
Yeah, of course of course we're gonna take others a spoiler.
1:00:48
No, you're not. And that's worth inspired this
1:00:52
question. So I'm curious and Larry will
1:00:54
start with you. What do you, what do you think
1:00:56
is the largest animal that you could take in a one versus one
1:01:00
fight? Oh my gosh.
1:01:01
I just, I've heard people talk about this before.
1:01:05
And in the context of like a goose because like a lot of
1:01:09
people like look at A Goose's, like, oh, I could this isn't
1:01:12
that big. I can until it starts chasing
1:01:13
you and your sandwich. And yeah.
1:01:15
Like everyone else. Yeah, exactly.
1:01:16
It's like I don't I think a goose could totally rip you.
1:01:21
Rip you a new one. If it needed to write.
1:01:23
So I'm going to go smaller than maybe cat.
1:01:29
I'm just like a cat cats cats have sharp claws and teeth, but
1:01:34
I still think I could probably take it.
1:01:36
Not that I would want to, and I don't want to.
1:01:38
I don't want to find any animal. I love animals.
1:01:39
I've got two doses, not a scenario.
1:01:40
Where condoning violence. Okay, good.
1:01:42
I'm a big. I'm an animal lover.
1:01:44
I have Dogs cat, you know, all that stuff.
1:01:47
I'm fine with that, but I'm just curious it from if you had to
1:01:50
it's, you know, fight or flight. What do you think you could
1:01:53
take? I think I think the cat would be
1:01:55
the biggest. I can take anything bigger than
1:01:58
that. I think would be difficult Jim.
1:02:01
What about yourself? Large, never fought a cat.
1:02:04
I can tell. Never here's what I think.
1:02:09
Is that humans? The human body is not designed.
1:02:14
For fighting animals, almost every animals is armed with
1:02:19
something sharp teeth, claws. Things like that, we don't have
1:02:23
any of those things. What we have is a huge brain
1:02:27
inside our skulls, that enable us to think and use weapons,
1:02:32
sticks, Stones, whatever, guns, sharp objects, as I was thinking
1:02:38
like, oh I if I climb in a tree and throw a rock down, I could
1:02:42
probably kill a lot of animals that That were way bigger than
1:02:46
me, you know without that I they might climb a tree and come back
1:02:50
to me. It's going to be pretty small.
1:02:53
I saw a video the other day of a lion climbing a tree to go after
1:02:58
a hyena and stealing their kill up in the tree.
1:03:02
Yeah, and you can barely hear that.
1:03:04
I had a bear come up on my deck. It's two floors up.
1:03:08
I don't think Maraca watched a video of like a bear, killing
1:03:11
his prey is not try not to, it's not a, not a normal viewing
1:03:15
habit of mine. Oh, no.
1:03:17
It's not a pretty picture. And so I was thinking maybe a
1:03:22
sloth because they're socially, like, maybe you could punch them
1:03:25
in like stomp on their head or something, but I don't know.
1:03:29
I mean, I'm kind of going where Larry went with like some themes
1:03:35
smaller than that and I was thinking like, chicken.
1:03:38
Chicken would be delicious. At least.
1:03:40
Yeah. Well people are killing chickens
1:03:42
right hand for a long time. So yeah, and I've broken many
1:03:46
chicken bones in because I actually buy this is my second
1:03:50
career. I used to be that's like back in
1:03:51
the back in the day. So I've like I've like broken a
1:03:54
lot of animal bones but they were already, you know, dead
1:03:58
deceased surprises me Jim, I thought you would pick something
1:04:01
bigger because I feel like I could take on A dog.
1:04:06
Maybe like a not maybe the like a super large size dog.
1:04:09
Now what I'm saying is, I think I will win.
1:04:12
The question is at what cost am I going to be scratched up,
1:04:15
buddy? Bit, probably, yes, but I feel
1:04:18
like I could take on something like that.
1:04:20
Not that I wanted you. Yeah.
1:04:25
So so usually I saw, I'm the negative 100.
1:04:28
Like, how could you come over to this topic is terrible?
1:04:30
I thought it was weird. And it was kind of like there
1:04:32
was a, there was a well-thought-out Reddit That was
1:04:35
like, why? I think I can beat a bear and it
1:04:38
was like, I don't know, like three pages.
1:04:41
Long of all the reasons why this guy thought that he could take
1:04:44
out a bear one versus one. He couldn't do.
1:04:47
Yeah. No, definitely not.
1:04:49
And that was what most of the comments were like, you know,
1:04:52
see you in the, ER, if we see you at all ever again, you know,
1:04:54
stuff like that. It would be funny, but I thought
1:04:57
it was interesting was like, all right.
1:04:58
Well, you know, let's, let's analyze this, you know, what do
1:05:00
you think? We could take?
1:05:01
But anyway, it was meant to be silly and I think mission
1:05:04
accomplished Each. So let's go ahead and wrap up
1:05:06
for this week. You know where you're right, a
1:05:10
fount of information. I'm hopeful that we'll be able
1:05:12
to get to fist bump in the future at some conference.
1:05:16
I don't think it'll be that identifies this year but maybe
1:05:18
at some point in the future, that's something I like to do
1:05:20
for all the guests we've had on, is the official fifth fist.
1:05:23
Bump of thanks. So I'll give you one here
1:05:25
virtually and we'll have links in our show notes.
1:05:28
You know, it's for people who want to connect with, Larry
1:05:30
asked him questions on LinkedIn. Learn more about strobe a city.
1:05:33
That's true a sativa. Cam, that's St.
1:05:35
RI V A CIT Y and kind of learn more about what those guys are
1:05:41
working on. And we have links to, you know,
1:05:43
also are identifiers, registration code idb 23-0 icen
1:05:48
20, make it really easy to sign up.
1:05:50
We hope to see a lot of people there and you know, definitely
1:05:53
follow our show on Twitter at idac podcast and visit us on the
1:05:56
web at idac. Podcast.com what else we gotta
1:06:00
run, Mastodon. Speaking of animals that we
1:06:02
definitely couldn't take one versus one.
1:06:04
At idac podcast at infosec that exchange, connect with Jim and I
1:06:08
and Linkedin. Jim is our social party planner
1:06:13
and is trying to figure out what we're going to do while we're
1:06:15
diverse. And when I'm not busy, either
1:06:17
recording and or editing the plethora of episodes that we
1:06:22
have planned for that. So, so reach out to us, if
1:06:27
you've got questions, comments ideas for the show, or just want
1:06:30
to tell us, you know, how pathetic we are about the size
1:06:33
of animal that we We could take male 1 vs. 1, any of those are
1:06:36
welcome. So with that, we're going to go
1:06:38
ahead and leave it for this week.
1:06:40
Thanks Laurie for your time, Jim.
1:06:42
Thanks for your time and we'll talk with everyone in the next
1:06:45
one. You've been listening to
1:06:49
Identity at the center. We hope you've enjoyed the show,
1:06:53
make sure to like rate and review and we'll be back soon,
1:06:57
but in the meantime, hit the website at identity at the
1:07:01
center.com and find us on Twitter at idac podcast, see you
1:07:07
next time on identity at the center idac podcast, see you
1:07:07
next time on identity at the center