Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / TL:DR - Netflix's SENNA, reviewed!

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TL:DR - Netflix's SENNA, reviewed! · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

• 0:00
  Grand Touring Motorsports started as a social group of car enthusiasts,
• 0:04
  but we've expanded into all sorts of motorsports disciplines, and we
• 0:08
  want to share our stories with you.
• 0:10
  Years of racing, wrenching, and motorsports experience brings together
• 0:14
  a top notch collection of knowledge and information through our podcast, BrakeFix.
• 0:22
  Tonight, we delve into the extraordinary life of a man who wasn't just
• 0:26
  a racing legend, but an icon of human spirit and determination.
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  Through the lens of Netflix's highly anticipated miniseries, we'll explore
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  the meteoric rise, relentless drive, and untamed passion of Ayrton Senna,
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  one of Formula One's greatest champions.
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  Born in Brazil, a land of contrasts and dreams, Senna's journey was nothing
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  short of a cinematic masterpiece.
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  From his humble beginnings on the karting tracks of Sao Paulo, to his
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  three world championships, and the unforgettable rivalries that defined an
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  era, Ayrton's story is as exhilarating as the circuits he conquered.
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  But beyond the roar of the engines, the glitz of the podiums, and the
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  iconic yellow helmet, there was a man.
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  A man who carried the weight of a nation, who raced with his heart as much as his
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  skill, and whose life ended too soon, leaving a legacy that transcends sport.
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  There is more than a story about speed and victory here.
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  It's a tale of resilience, faith, and a relentless pursuit of perfection.
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  And joining me tonight to help break down the miniseries, episode by episode,
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  and dissect its most pivotal moments, is our most returningest guest host,
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  William Big Money Ross from the Exotic Car Marketplace, along with Professor
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  John Summers, the motoring historian.
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  So welcome back, gentlemen.
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  Pleasure.
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  Thanks for having us, Eric.
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  This is gonna be fun.
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  I feel like we did the celebration of life earlier this year, and here we are again.
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  Looking at another Senna film of some sort.
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  What I came to realize is, we've been batting around this idea of a new
• 1:50
  Senna show for a while, and I wanted to pinpoint exactly when that all came about.
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  And I had to go back to September of 2020.
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  Drive thru news episode number three on BreakFix.
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  is when they announced that this series was going to go into production.
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  So it's been four years that we've been waiting for this Senna
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  miniseries, call it a mockumentary.
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  That's what I want to label it as.
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  That I went into going, this is like Titanic.
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  I know the ending.
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  What are you going to tell me that I don't already know?
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  But there are only nine stories in history, Eric.
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  When you go to the cinema to see any story, you know the
• 2:26
  ending, what's enjoyable.
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  is how the story's told, how the characters interact, whether or not
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  themes resonate with society and the audience at the moment, whether or not
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  the movie looks good and is stylish, that's what your Hollywood guys lead on.
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  And what I look for is a ripping yarn, good story, great plot.
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  And I look for compelling characters, and the older I get, I find I'm
• 2:49
  much more interested in, have the characters been well drawn?
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  Are they charismatic?
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  Do I like them?
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  Do I give a shit what happens to them?
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  And this is why my consumption of automotive media nowadays exists
• 3:00
  outside of the realm of the fictional.
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  I can't even do Game of Thrones anymore.
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  It all feels like a 15 year old Dungeons and Dragons campaign that I
• 3:08
  wouldn't want to be involved in anymore.
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  You know, I've not watched the miniseries.
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  I have read reviews, so I'm fascinated to understand what you guys think of it.
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  And that informs the sort of little agenda that I wanted to work through.
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  And that agenda is simply the one that my English teachers gave me
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  in high school, which is you talk about the plot, You talk about the
• 3:30
  characters, you talk about the themes.
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  By the end of that, you should have an idea of whether or not this is just
• 3:37
  style over substance, or whether or not there's really anything there.
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  So I am fascinated to get into it with you guys.
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  We're not going to spend time talking about Senna's life story.
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  If you want to learn about that, go back into johnsommers.
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  net and all the articles you've written about Senna.
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  Go back and read Senna's book.
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  Go back and watch Senna the documentary from 2010.
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  Go back to our 30 years after Temporello celebration of life episode.
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  Like we don't need to spend time talking about Senna.
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  What we need to do is spend time understanding if they portrayed those
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  stories correctly in this miniseries.
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  So I don't want to spend the next hour tearing apart
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  Netflix's interpretation of this.
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  So I'll just blanket statement saying it's good and it's good in two ways.
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  It's good for the drive to survive crowd that knows nothing about
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  Senna and is asking, who is Senna?
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  When they hear people make references to Verstappen or to Hamilton,
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  when they say he's driving like Senna, or we haven't seen antics
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  like this since the days of Senna.
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  And people are going, who is this mythical Senna?
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  Which for us is hard to fathom that anybody wouldn't know who he was.
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  So it's important.
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  That this story is told in a way that the younger generation can absorb
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  it versus a documentary that they're not going to want to suffer through,
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  although the 2010 Senate documentary is awesome, and it's all file footage with
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  voiceovers and all that kind of stuff.
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  It's also good for us, the enthusiasts.
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  The folks that were there in period as well as the historians from an accuracy
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  perspective I give it high marks because what they did is a mockumentary like
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  other ones I've seen like the man who would be bond where they used file
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  footage and recreate it using the actors of today With cgi and all the wonderful
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  things that we can do It makes for a great viewing experience for the people
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  that are in the know, but then there's some other threads and I have some
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  specific ones that I want to pull on as we go through this that I think are
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  important were not often showcased in other interpretations of Senna's story.
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  And that's where I want to focus and hone in on.
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  As I tell a lot of people and you see it with all these movies and everything
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  that's come out in the past five, 10 years, what have you, because it's
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  a big influx of these people start nitpicking it and critiquing it.
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  It's like, look, this is entertainment.
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  This is not to be like historically accurate to nail everything down.
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  This is for entertainment and for enjoyment.
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  And that's how I always go into these things.
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  Look, I'm going to have some fun with this and enjoy, you know,
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  everything's not going to be spot on.
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  You know, they're going to take liberties with things.
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  You know, they're going to stretch it too.
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  They're going to leave certain things out.
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  Well, especially this, you're going to see within the first 15, 20 minutes.
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  Okay.
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  How are they going to portray this?
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  They can make it.
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  Look like was a nice guy, the bad guy.
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  Are they going to be really truthful?
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  I really enjoyed it.
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  And I knocked the thing out right off the bat that time.
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  Cause I just got into it.
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  I wanted to watch it and I actually rewatched some of it this morning
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  just to kind of refresh myself.
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  I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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  And it's just interesting.
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  I watch it.
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  Eric, watch it.
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  We watch it.
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  We know Senna's history.
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  We know everything, not everything, but we know the background, his
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  story, where he came from and going up through and all this stuff and
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  his teammates, all that stuff.
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  One question would be is, would you recommend someone watch this first,
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  then go learn about them, or learn about them first, and then watch it?
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  If you're not familiar with the Senate story, because it could skew you a
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  little bit, going, Well, wait a minute, I watched this, and that's not matching up.
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  And that's why I say it sort of works for both audiences.
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  If you don't know, as an enthusiast, let's say you're from NASCAR Nation,
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  or you're a rally guy, or IndyCar, or something like that, and you want to learn
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  about something, You can learn enough to be dangerous from this series, but the
• 7:08
  real meat and potatoes is over on the 2010 SENA documentary, but you got to
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  know what you're getting into with that.
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  It's more detailed, a lot more file footage, evidence, agency,
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  all those things that are important to a historical documentary.
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  But to William's point, this is easily digestible.
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  But also it isn't because every episode is like a movie.
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  It's very cinematic.
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  It's very deep.
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  It's very detailed.
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  There are about an hour a piece, some are more, some are less, but
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  they average out to about an hour.
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  So you're in this for six or seven hours by the time it's done.
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  The Senate documentary is only two.
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  So you got to kind of balance that out and go, well, which one would I watch?
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  If you want the express lane, watch the documentary and you're
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  going to get more historical fact.
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  But something else you hit on, William, is the story moves very quickly.
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  But I made a note in my copious pages of notes.
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  We get through birth to 1979 in the first Eight minutes of the first episode,
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  like boom, Formula Ford at minute nine.
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  And we just rocket forward from there.
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  So they skip over some of the pleasantries of his upbringing,
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  how affluent his family was.
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  Some of the other wives tales that we heard about how Senna had a go
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  kart track in his backyard and he would go out and practice every day.
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  There's some of that woven into the story as flashbacks and this and that, but
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  there's not a lot of context around it.
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  So they fast track us to England in 1979.
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  Eight minutes into the first episode.
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  Yeah, they jump pretty quick.
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  But this is what you need to do with storytelling.
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  One of the professor at Stanford that I teach that class with, she always
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  talks about you can start in the middle.
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  As long as you do the flashback, you need to start at a dramatic point
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  where you draw your audience in.
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  So I was interested to understand where they started.
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  Well, it doesn't get any more dramatic than file footage
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  of the crash at Tamburello.
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  Boom, like immediately.
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  And it's sort of like that Jacob's ladder thing where it's like, well,
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  let me tell you how I got here.
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  And then we work backwards, but going forwards and come full
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  circle, it starts and ends with the crash of Tamburello full stop.
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  You have to start there.
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  You absolutely have to start at that point, but where you choose to pick up
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  and how you cover the childhood piece, I thought they might start with the rivalry.
• 9:17
  No, no.
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  I anticipated.
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  As Eric stated, you gotta start with, to your point, that initial hook.
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  You start with the end, and to get people in and say, Alright, here's the
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  dramatic stuff, the accident, the death.
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  Okay, now all of a sudden, let's get back to, you know, where it starts.
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  And, like he said, you know, they jump to the beginning
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  part pretty quick in his youth.
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  And they kind of gloss over the fact of his wealth.
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  They had a lot of money and it's kind of humorous because once they
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  jump into certain points and this is all in the first episode in regards
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  to cost and paying for things.
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  Oh, I got to sell the family Impala to pay for doing this
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  and everything's like, really?
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  You run the Brazilian equivalent of AC Delco or whatever,
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  like a parts distributorship.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  Yeah.
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  And back then running Formula Ford, what do you have to maybe come up with?
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  7, 500 bucks.
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  I mean, come on.
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  I mean, yeah, back then he had some money, but it's not like
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  they were hurting for cash.
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  It was the wraparound commitment though, wasn't it?
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  It was the commitment to come from warm, familiar Catholic Brazil
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  to cold, unfriendly England.
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  They nailed the contrast between Brazil and the warmth.
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  And then all of a sudden they're showing England where it's just dreary.
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  They got the grayish back.
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  They nailed it in regards to, wow, this is just I don't know how they portrayed
• 10:33
  the Ron Dennis character, but if you think about the real Ron Dennis, he's
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  like an amalgam of all of my sales managers who ever worked together.
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  They had him wrong.
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  From the sweariness, the hardness, to the seeing further and farther.
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  And so it's that feeling that I used to get from my sales managers.
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  Maybe this is part of the reason why I was drawn to Zenith.
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  It's a feeling that I used to get from my sales managers that if they want
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  you on the team, they believe in you.
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  Yeah, don't need to pat you on the back and tell you what a nice guy you are and
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  give you a trophy for finishing second.
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  The fact that you're still hired and they're not railing on you is how you
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  know that you're doing a good job.
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  That is evident throughout the film with his interactions with Ron Dennis.
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  There's also the thing they sort of glaze over.
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  In 1980, I think it was where Dennis was like, I want you to come drive for me now.
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  And he said, nah, I don't think I'm going to do that.
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  Then there's this whole family drama about him going back to Brazil and he's
• 11:26
  there for like a hot minute and then finds himself in formula three right after that.
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  And then, you know, obviously the story kind of fast forwards from there.
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  So there's also the drama with his first wife.
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  Yeah, how she didn't want to be there and he was only supposed to be there for
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  a year because that's the promise that he Made to his mother and I find hard to
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  believe of course she didn't want to be there I mean, it's england's ron dennis.
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  Do you want like beaches and brazil or do you want bloody ron dennis?
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  And this is his childhood sweetheart And when forced to choose between her
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  and the racing, we know what he chose.
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  Now I not delved into his personal life.
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  I've never really read to understand if it was that contrast, but for me
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  as a teenager, you know, when my first girlfriend dumped me, my first thought
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  was, well, you know, Rather like Senna, when it came to cars or women,
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  you lean into the cars, don't you?
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  Because they don't go wrong and they don't ditch you sometimes, but you can fix them.
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  They also sort of leaned into this weird sexually aggressive nature
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  of Senna throughout the film.
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  And he has a type, by the way.
• 12:26
  Yeah.
• 12:27
  As we go through the series, we start to realize that as well.
• 12:30
  But when you first meet Lillian, they're in the Impala.
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  They're doing sort of like the Makeout Mountain kind of thing.
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  And it was a little cringey and almost like, It's like,
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  I'm going off to war tomorrow.
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  We got to get the deed done.
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  I was like, we don't need this.
• 12:43
  All that stuff could actually have been deleted because I think that took
• 12:46
  away from the imagery I have of Senna.
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  It kind of made him, I don't want to say it made him
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  creepy, but it was just cringy.
• 12:53
  I didn't like that.
• 12:54
  I didn't appreciate that part of his story.
• 12:56
  I think they included that scene for the fact when she said that she'll go with him
• 13:00
  because he's basically presenting it to her that he was going to go with himself.
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  I'll only be gone a year, dah, dah, dah.
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  She's, oh no.
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  I I'm going with you.
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  I think that's the whole reason they put that in there was for that fact.
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  There's all I know.
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  I'm going with you in this whole little adventure.
• 13:11
  That could have been done over breakfast though.
• 13:13
  You know what I mean?
• 13:14
  Exactly.
• 13:15
  They didn't need to do it in the car in the front seat of the Apollo.
• 13:17
  Cause they're only what?
• 13:18
  19.
• 13:18
  Yeah.
• 13:19
  They're about, I mean, it's not like they were in there mid twilight.
• 13:22
  I mean, he was young when he went over there.
• 13:23
  I read just recently that she was his childhood sweet.
• 13:26
  Yes.
• 13:26
  Yeah.
• 13:27
  Yeah.
• 13:27
  They've been good forever.
• 13:28
  Yeah.
• 13:28
  In traditional accounts of Santa that I received in period.
• 13:33
  She almost didn't appear at all.
• 13:35
  Not that they ever really did backstories or girlfriends or anything like that.
• 13:39
  Because one of the interesting things, PK started a rumor that he was gay.
• 13:43
  Yeah.
• 13:43
  I remember that part of the reason why he started that was because Senna
• 13:47
  had this guy that was with him, like carrying his helmet at a couple of races.
• 13:51
  So P.
• 13:51
  K.
• 13:52
  being P.
• 13:52
  K.
• 13:53
  was like, oh, and I wondered if they would delve into that at all.
• 13:56
  Whilst we're talking about the sexual stuff, did they delve into that at all?
• 14:00
  No, they very rarely mentioned P.
• 14:03
  K.
• 14:03
  They got a guy playing his part that looked like him.
• 14:06
  The actor playing Senna I mean, he's a dead ringer for him for sure.
• 14:10
  Now, the Nicky Lauda one, not so much.
• 14:11
  We'll just leave that where it is.
• 14:12
  Lauda's like him though.
• 14:14
  But Lauda looks like a character from Star Wars, doesn't he?
• 14:16
  If you'd have had the real Lauda, people would have been
• 14:19
  like, what the fuck's that?
• 14:20
  Like, I'm not watching Stallion.
• 14:21
  I thought it was Ron Howard for a second playing him.
• 14:24
  Even Emerson Fittipaldi, they sort of did this at a distance thing.
• 14:27
  Like, we have these other Brazilian guys and they're over there.
• 14:30
  We're not going to focus on them.
• 14:32
  Basically, they sort of pushed P.
• 14:33
  K.
• 14:34
  out so that it didn't show any sort of rivalry between his
• 14:38
  fellow countrymen in any way.
• 14:39
  The whole theme of the thing is very pro Senna.
• 14:41
  It was really focused on Senna being the hope for Brazil.
• 14:45
  That's why P.
• 14:46
  K.
• 14:46
  hated him, period.
• 14:47
  And they made sure to know that he was a very, very heterosexual man.
• 14:50
  Oh, God.
• 14:52
  They made a point, to be sure, that, no, he liked women.
• 14:55
  We'll get to another good one later, as, like, episode four, or whatever.
• 14:58
  It's like, oh, my God.
• 14:59
  Yeah, that princess or whatever she is.
• 15:01
  Oh that too?
• 15:03
  I forgot about that.
• 15:04
  Yeah.
• 15:05
  Oh man.
• 15:05
  Then the TV started, yeah.
• 15:07
  This is really interesting that we've talked about this because on my vague
• 15:10
  little structure, one thing I had written down, and I don't often feel the need to
• 15:14
  like mark a score, you know, make a chalk mark, but when some other motherfucker
• 15:19
  plagiarizes your work, you have to draw a line in the sand, don't you?
• 15:23
  And I read an article in AutoWeek by an individual with the second name of
• 15:27
  Vaughn, where he had used the word Vaughn.
• 15:29
  Beatification in the article, and he'd sort of muddied my concept that
• 15:34
  he had basically taken my word that I've been using for about a decade
• 15:39
  now, and put it in context of an article about cen for those listening.
• 15:43
  That's a John Summers trademark phrase there.
• 15:46
  The beatification of Sena.
• 15:48
  Of Sena.
• 15:48
  Yeah.
• 15:48
  This notion that center is moving from being a.
• 15:53
  normal racing driver like Martin Brundle, for example, or Nelson
• 15:58
  Piquet, or even Emerson Fittipaldi.
• 16:00
  He's not an old racing driver now.
• 16:02
  He's something more.
• 16:03
  He's not like an actress from the 1950s.
• 16:05
  He's Marilyn Monroe.
• 16:06
  You know, he's not Joey Lee Lewis.
• 16:08
  He's Elvis.
• 16:09
  And this is a really interesting thing, and the miniseries interests
• 16:13
  me from that kind of perspective.
• 16:14
  So let's talk more about the plot, more about the story here.
• 16:17
  The road to Formula One.
• 16:19
  starts in episode two called belonging and it's all about him basically being
• 16:25
  ostracized like who is this guy he's an outsider does he really belong here
• 16:30
  he has to prove himself and it all centers around the tolman and that
• 16:34
  rain race at monaco and and all that stuff and so you're like Okay, cool.
• 16:38
  That's true.
• 16:39
  All of that stuff happened.
• 16:41
  But there's also this other side of Senna that they paint, which is the
• 16:45
  fastest driver wants the fastest car.
• 16:47
  And they basically show how he screwed over Tolman, and
• 16:51
  how he screwed over McLaren.
• 16:52
  That whole thing perpetuates.
• 16:54
  It becomes part of his persona, but they downplay, as you've
• 16:58
  referred to it, his bully tactics.
• 17:01
  And we'll get into that more as we go along.
• 17:02
  We talk about the rivalry with Prost.
• 17:04
  The plot up to that point, there's six episodes, right?
• 17:07
  So it's the calling, the belonging, the ambition, the passion, the hero,
• 17:12
  and then time is the last episode.
• 17:14
  So belonging, ambition, and passion all sort of like go together, and
• 17:17
  it's all about the greatness of Senna, how he became who he was, and all
• 17:22
  of the people that surrounded him.
• 17:24
  So the major players that come out of the equation at this point, Are his carding
• 17:28
  rival in England is Terry Fullerton.
• 17:32
  Yeah.
• 17:32
  It's a shout out.
• 17:33
  Yeah.
• 17:33
  It's a party, a movie.
• 17:34
  Correct.
• 17:35
  Who went on to be a builder just went on to be a normal bloke.
• 17:38
  Yeah, but he gets carried through the entire film to the very end.
• 17:42
  Like he comes back a bunch of times and whether that's truthful or otherwise,
• 17:45
  whether they maintain their friendship.
• 17:47
  We don't know, but they do spend a lot of time at the same track running
• 17:51
  go karts formula three formula 2000.
• 17:53
  I was like, can we just pick another track for crying out loud?
• 17:56
  Yeah.
• 17:56
  Is it Snetterton?
• 17:57
  Yeah.
• 17:58
  Portions of it.
• 17:59
  I did read that it's Snetterton, but with mountains in the background.
• 18:02
  Correct.
• 18:02
  Yeah.
• 18:03
  And if you've ever been to Snetterton, there's not mountains, there's cloud,
• 18:08
  there's shooting rain, and they're shitting yourself on that absurdly
• 18:11
  long straight that they have there.
• 18:13
  It's also the classic British club circuit.
• 18:16
  You need to understand about club circuits.
• 18:18
  If you've come from other parts of the world, there's
• 18:20
  tons of them all over England.
• 18:21
  They were all airfields in the Second World War, so they were all flat, and
• 18:25
  they all have corners, which are not like the corkscrew, they're not banked,
• 18:31
  you just find the right line and you have big balls, and you're fast, and
• 18:35
  if you get the line wrong and you don't have big balls, you're slow.
• 18:38
  It's a really very exacting environment, and Snetterton, because of the rain
• 18:42
  and the crap surface, is Yeah, I've done one track day there and I didn't
• 18:47
  go back because it's an asshole to get to and because the surface was bad.
• 18:50
  Yeah, they just dress it up in a few different ways.
• 18:53
  But again, it kind of goes back, like I said in the beginning,
• 18:55
  is they're using it for certain scenes, using Formula 4, then F3.
• 18:58
  Then they go back to it for one little scene with Terry Fullerton
• 19:01
  karting school that he does.
• 19:03
  Yeah, it gets a bit annoying, but again, you got to take it to Kansas.
• 19:06
  They're just kind of going this for a reference situation.
• 19:10
  It's not about his skill and showing his craft.
• 19:13
  It's more about between someone else.
• 19:15
  Cause like the one for the formula four was against, uh, was that Quinn
• 19:18
  in Monticelli, the Argentinian guy.
• 19:21
  Yeah.
• 19:21
  So that battle and then going into F3, it was against Martin Brundle, which
• 19:25
  they didn't really get into too much, which I was surprised because him and
• 19:28
  Brundle went at it pretty good in F3.
• 19:31
  went at it pretty good.
• 19:32
  Yeah.
• 19:32
  And Brundle beat it.
• 19:34
  Yeah.
• 19:34
  And that whole ostracized in Formula One, it was because everyone had seen that
• 19:38
  when under pressure, Senna crashed you.
• 19:40
  Yes.
• 19:41
  Now later in his career, maybe he didn't, but in Formula Three, that's how it was.
• 19:45
  And you didn't do things like that in the British idiom, but I've just got to say,
• 19:50
  Martin Brundle, if I met him in person, if I ever get to shake his hand to me, still
• 19:56
  the guy who beat Senna is the only one.
• 19:57
  Only guy who beat Santa on a level playing field in that Formula 3 seat.
• 20:02
  The way they handle all that stuff, those little other stories and
• 20:06
  those notions and whatnot, is to use this character, Laura Harrison.
• 20:11
  She's Portuguese by ethnicity.
• 20:14
  But English by marriage.
• 20:15
  So she's multilingual and all this kind of stuff.
• 20:17
  She's the reporter that follows him around from the very beginning, when
• 20:21
  he goes there for formula Ford and some cart racing all the way through the
• 20:25
  end of his career, he totally made up.
• 20:26
  Yeah, exactly.
• 20:27
  No, no, no.
• 20:28
  She's an amalgam of three or four different British.
• 20:33
  I read an article about it this morning.
• 20:34
  I think Dennis Jenkinson, the motor sport guy who saw him really early
• 20:39
  on the guy who he was close with and then had the falling out with.
• 20:42
  Was a guy called Mike Doodson.
• 20:44
  I also think there's another character in there.
• 20:47
  Maybe Mike Greesley.
• 20:49
  I maybe should have read more.
• 20:50
  I skim read the article about the Laura Harrison character.
• 20:54
  My first thought is, well, that's bogus.
• 20:56
  My next thought is, no, um, Dr.
• 20:58
  Jekyll and Mr.
• 20:59
  Hyde.
• 21:00
  The narrator is this wallflower character.
• 21:03
  The great Gatsby.
• 21:04
  The narrator is a wallflower character.
• 21:06
  Great storytelling demands sometimes that the narrator is
• 21:10
  this wallflower who takes no part.
• 21:13
  So she's an important part of the plot.
• 21:15
  Yeah.
• 21:15
  Do you buy her as a character?
• 21:16
  Yes.
• 21:17
  He allows Us the viewer to pull those other threads and they come to a head
• 21:21
  in like episode five and we'll talk about that as we go along because your
• 21:24
  point about the bullying and she makes these references and what I always
• 21:28
  say is you can take the boy out of the cart but you can't take the cart racer
• 21:32
  out of the boy and so some of Santa's tactics go back to those early days of
• 21:36
  cart racing if I can't get around you.
• 21:37
  I'll punt you, but it gets more dangerous the bigger the cars are.
• 21:40
  So some of that gets involved, but she's always there.
• 21:42
  She's always lurking in the background.
• 21:44
  And everyone else was afraid of touching in open wheelers.
• 21:47
  Senna wasn't.
• 21:49
  I'd never seen that before.
• 21:50
  That's what reached out of the screen and got me.
• 21:53
  It was how much do you want it?
• 21:55
  Are you afraid to crash?
• 21:57
  Are you afraid to crash?
• 21:59
  He asked every one of his rivals that.
• 22:01
  Every time he went to pass, and often they were, and when he'd beaten them
• 22:05
  once, he'd beaten them forever, and I'd never seen anything like that before.
• 22:10
  And then this individual, out of the car, wasn't an aggressive, mean bully,
• 22:15
  he was cerebral, he was laid back.
• 22:17
  He was cool.
• 22:18
  That was why he became my hero.
• 22:20
  The one thing that also is, you know, I want to say it's prevalent
• 22:24
  throughout it, and it's very, you know, I can say understated.
• 22:27
  There's definite racial undertones in regards to how outsiders are
• 22:32
  treated over there, especially if you're in English, but, you know,
• 22:35
  even, you know, European of the sort.
• 22:37
  But coming from South America, There was definitely that message.
• 22:41
  There was a racial bias.
• 22:42
  So 100 percent yes.
• 22:44
  Our Mr.
• 22:44
  FIA, how do we pronounce his name?
• 22:46
  John Marie Balestra, our favorite villain in the FIA.
• 22:50
  He's just the total prick.
• 22:51
  Anyways, there's a lot of racial undertone in that also that goes on
• 22:55
  too, which is kind of interesting.
• 22:56
  So Balest was in the Nazi party in the second world war.
• 23:00
  Yeah, here we go.
• 23:01
  I, he was a real deal.
• 23:04
  So I was shocked when I learned that.
• 23:05
  And I only learned that recently.
• 23:07
  Because the way the news stories were covered in period, Senna was really
• 23:12
  aggressive and crashy, so I could understand why, like, the authorities
• 23:16
  were like, check yourself before you wreck yourself kind of thing.
• 23:19
  But as we foreshadow another episode that's coming where we talk
• 23:23
  a little bit more about Balestra, he's not in it for the drivers.
• 23:27
  He's in it for himself.
• 23:28
  And it becomes very clear in the series that Senna is good for business.
• 23:33
  Despite his attitudes and the way he handles the other drivers and
• 23:38
  all of his tantrums and everything else Senna's good for business.
• 23:42
  He's such a talent.
• 23:43
  That's what the copadia movie does so well Is that in the first couple of
• 23:47
  minutes there's footage of him driving those 1200 horsepower turbo cars And
• 23:52
  he's got them on the ragged edge when the senna thing first came out came around
• 23:56
  again in, in a shocking way, 20 years after he'd gone in the mid like 2010.
• 24:00
  I went back and I re watched the races being like, I know what I saw
• 24:04
  when I was a kid, do I still feel it?
• 24:06
  Because I was terrified that I would watch and he would
• 24:09
  just be another racing driver.
• 24:11
  He wouldn't stand out.
• 24:12
  But when you go back and you watch those early Formula 1
• 24:15
  races, the difference is apparent.
• 24:16
  The speed, The increased commitment it leaps out of the tv screen.
• 24:22
  It's really astonishing to the plot his family We don't look at them as individual
• 24:27
  characters They're a group his mother his father milton his sister vivian.
• 24:31
  They're a unit they appear a lot.
• 24:34
  They obviously show that he's a big family guy.
• 24:36
  His relationship with his mother is super important.
• 24:39
  His relationship with his dad, even more so in some ways, and they're a
• 24:42
  part of his life and they're supportive.
• 24:43
  And they paint that picture.
• 24:44
  That's part of the plot that runs all the way through to the very
• 24:47
  end is that his relationship with his family is tied back to Brazil.
• 24:51
  When he gets to Europe, after all the England stuff.
• 24:53
  stuff.
• 24:54
  And we get into Formula One by episode two, three, this is where we can go.
• 24:58
  And now we can talk about Jean Marie Balestra in more
• 25:01
  detail, what he was all about.
• 25:02
  But more importantly, where we start to really just ramp up is the picture
• 25:08
  they paint of the relationship between fellow Frenchmen, Alain Prost That.
• 25:15
  Is like Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader.
• 25:18
  That's how they paint that picture.
• 25:20
  And Ayrton Senna is Luke Skywalker and he's coming in here to rectify everything.
• 25:25
  Am I wrong, William?
• 25:25
  Like that's how it comes across.
• 25:27
  Yeah, and the midget Yoda has a very Star Wars feel to it when
• 25:33
  you get to the middle part.
• 25:34
  Well, you know, one thing I find interesting, too, is like, like you
• 25:36
  said, you know, also, we get to that form one day, but he honored his
• 25:40
  commitment or his promise that after the championship, he went back to Brazil.
• 25:44
  And how true it is.
• 25:45
  But Keith Sutton, the photographer, seems like he played a big role
• 25:50
  in getting him to come back as he was pushing him to come back.
• 25:53
  But also he was talking with these teams.
• 25:56
  I don't know how true it is.
• 25:57
  They played him like Jimmy Olsen to Superman is how they played.
• 26:00
  Exactly.
• 26:01
  A hundred percent.
• 26:02
  Do you know Keith Sutton, John?
• 26:04
  Have you ever met him?
• 26:05
  Yes, I had a number of his book and when you mentioned the Keith Sutton
• 26:09
  name, I had forgotten that Santa had the close relationship with him.
• 26:13
  It's interesting that Keith Sutton's a separate character and not amalgamated
• 26:18
  into the journalist character.
• 26:19
  Yeah, I feel like I need to go back and revisit because when I went to
• 26:24
  Imola in 2004, there was nothing there.
• 26:26
  It wasn't closed.
• 26:27
  There was one other guy who recognized my helmet, which was
• 26:30
  a Senna replica crash helmet, because I'd ridden there on a bike.
• 26:32
  So in 2004, no Razzmatazz there.
• 26:34
  In 2014, so 20 years after Senna's passing, there was an event at Imola.
• 26:39
  And that event had used an awful lot of Keith Sutton's photography.
• 26:43
  And I've used it in a lot of the work that I've done.
• 26:45
  So for example, they use Keith Sutton's photography and then created
• 26:49
  a sort of Andy Warhol image of it.
• 26:52
  And for me, seeing that exhibit first made me think about this whole
• 26:57
  transition from being a racing driver to being some kind of immortal legend,
• 27:04
  somebody who deserves having a.
• 27:05
  miniseries made about them.
• 27:07
  For me it began at that exhibition and that photography was Keith Sutton's works.
• 27:12
  The photography is of course a really interesting way to tell the story
• 27:17
  because racing cars particularly, the picture really does speak a thousand
• 27:21
  words when it comes to racing cars.
• 27:23
  He was in the early part and the way they were playing it in the beginning
• 27:26
  you thought he was going to play a little bit more role throughout the whole
• 27:29
  series but it was just in the early part.
• 27:31
  You know, getting him to come back to Brazil and taking some photos
• 27:34
  and whatnot, sharing some pictures.
• 27:36
  And that was about it.
• 27:37
  I thought he'd be in there a little bit more because he was obviously played
• 27:40
  a huge role in that period, taking photographs and everything like that.
• 27:44
  And it seemed to be that they tried to play it off that Senna was very big into
• 27:47
  that, appreciated those types of photos.
• 27:49
  What you have to understand is England's really small.
• 27:53
  So if Ron Dennis doesn't know that person personally, He knows somebody
• 27:58
  who went to the same high school as him, or he knows somebody who was raced
• 28:03
  with him in a lower series or something.
• 28:05
  It's rather like NASCAR, in that it's a small community that you're joining, and
• 28:10
  the media guys, they're traveling on the planes, they're staying in the same hotel.
• 28:14
  The reason that Senna was so hurt by Mike Doodson that time, if it was him, Mike, if
• 28:19
  it wasn't you, I'm sorry, but the reason he was so hurt by that was that, They
• 28:22
  talked on the plane to and from racist.
• 28:25
  And it was those conversations.
• 28:27
  It was that closeness that they felt like they were friends.
• 28:29
  And the journalists at the time separated what they really knew from
• 28:35
  what they were going to write for the particular British newspaper that
• 28:39
  they were writing for at the time.
• 28:41
  And, and a number of the journalists would write for.
• 28:44
  a left wing rag one minute and then would write for a high end right wing newspaper.
• 28:49
  They'd go from one extreme to another in terms of the kind of stories that
• 28:53
  they'd write, but they would have the same relationships with the drivers.
• 28:56
  And Dennis Jenkinson, the motorsport guy, he was a Senna believer.
• 29:00
  After a plane flight where they talked together and it was then that DSJ realized
• 29:05
  that this wasn't brain out speed This was deeply thought about and considered
• 29:10
  and listened to so in other words It is a club that you're a part of and if you
• 29:15
  are an outsider if you're a mediterranean Or from south america, you know There
• 29:20
  is a phrase, right, that an Englishman is worth 10 of Johnny Foreigner.
• 29:24
  And I'm not saying Ron Dennis was a subscriber to that.
• 29:27
  That was something that people used to believe in the days of
• 29:29
  the redcoats and all of that.
• 29:31
  But there's still a notion there that we're doing it our way and you
• 29:35
  Frenchies and Mediterranean's and anybody else can do it their fucking way.
• 29:40
  We're doing it our way with our American buddies with these American Ford V8.
• 29:44
  We're doing it our way.
• 29:45
  The way they portray that is actually a little bit earlier in the story
• 29:48
  where Peter wore from Lotus is like, we need to bring Senna to Lotus.
• 29:53
  We need to do it now.
• 29:54
  And one of his bosses, I forget who it was, is now it's
• 29:57
  gotta be a British driver.
• 29:58
  We're going to bring over Mansell.
• 30:01
  That's the way they show it in the movie to again, do that racial bias
• 30:06
  that William was talking about.
• 30:07
  They use Lotus.
• 30:08
  As the way to explain that, but then later it's like, Oh,
• 30:10
  look how triumphant Santa was.
• 30:12
  He ended up at Lotus.
• 30:13
  dah.
• 30:14
  And he overcome adversity.
• 30:15
  And it's great.
• 30:16
  That's only like a sliver of what goes on.
• 30:19
  Because once you get to the meat of the sandwich, episodes two,
• 30:23
  three, and four, it becomes over.
• 30:25
  All about Senna and Prost.
• 30:26
  No, no, yeah, they really focus on that quite extensively in regards
• 30:31
  to that battle between those two.
• 30:33
  I find it hard to believe that Senna didn't push back more in regards
• 30:38
  to, I would say, mental games.
• 30:39
  The way they portrayed it was Prost was the one pretty much doing all
• 30:43
  the mental head games and Senna was just kind of like, yeah, whatever.
• 30:46
  I have to believe that Senna Gabe just as good as he was getting in those scenarios.
• 30:50
  It seems weird.
• 30:51
  I mean, yeah, I know he was a big thing.
• 30:52
  I'll do it on the track.
• 30:53
  I'll show you on the track.
• 30:54
  We'll race her, but I just can't see him getting bullied by the midget like that.
• 30:57
  I kept saying to myself and John, you and I have had this discussion before
• 31:01
  about the Senate versus pros rivalry and how it supersedes everything hunt versus
• 31:05
  louder and going back to all of them.
• 31:07
  It's just.
• 31:09
  It's like, but in this series, they portray Prost really, really badly.
• 31:16
  I am surprised if he hasn't seen this, that he's not suing Netflix
• 31:20
  because they really make him look like a complete piece of shit.
• 31:25
  I feel for him and I don't, but I do because I think it was bad, but
• 31:29
  I don't know that it was anything.
• 31:30
  As bad as the hollywood turned it around on him.
• 31:34
  They tried to make it up though in the end And a lot was that
• 31:36
  in five six after he's retired.
• 31:38
  It's so hollow Yeah, I mean they try to kiss his ass a little bit, but
• 31:42
  it's like I don't know in real life.
• 31:44
  They did make up Yeah, I believe in real life There was a closeness and and
• 31:47
  the other thing is is that in period the way the british media delivered
• 31:52
  the story to me, or the way I received the story, it was that Prost was part
• 31:58
  of the Formula One establishment.
• 31:59
  He was a fixture at McLaren, he was acknowledged as the most complete
• 32:04
  driver and the winningest driver at the time, and Senna was really fast.
• 32:10
  But Crashy, and that made him great to what, but you could understand
• 32:13
  why the Formula One authorities struggled with that a little bit.
• 32:17
  So for me, this portrayal of Ballest and Prost as villains
• 32:24
  is really, really peculiar.
• 32:27
  Illusion.
• 32:27
  Now, I should say at this point, I got interested in Formula One in 1984, so the
• 32:32
  same time as Senna came to Formula One.
• 32:34
  I didn't follow the PK period and the period of the FISA FOCA war.
• 32:41
  And this FISA FOCA war really, Bernie Ecclestone seizing control of Formula
• 32:47
  One as the FOCA representative from the teams, because at that
• 32:51
  time he was Brabham team principal.
• 32:53
  In other words, If Boles has it in for the British teams, well it's because
• 32:59
  Bernie Ecclestone is a car trader from South London, Frank Williams
• 33:03
  is a car trader from South London, you know, Ron Dennis is a mechanic,
• 33:06
  he was Jack Brabham's mechanic.
• 33:08
  They truly are Ferrari's garage easters, and now one of them's owning the sport
• 33:14
  and making lots of money out of it.
• 33:15
  I mean, you can understand why people in France and people in Italy felt like they
• 33:22
  wanted to do something, you know, in the way that they did in the thirties when
• 33:25
  the Germans were winning all the time, they invented voiturette racing again
• 33:29
  with small engines so that they could have their own races that they could win again.
• 33:33
  So it's funny you bring up Ecclestone because the only time you see See him
• 33:37
  or someone portraying him in the series is actually during the driver signing
• 33:41
  in like 1989 into the 1990 season.
• 33:44
  He's sitting to the left of Balestra as we're facing him and you see the terrible
• 33:49
  comb over and they don't use Eccleston in any way during the conversation.
• 33:53
  But a little fact that people might not know because you brought
• 33:56
  up FISA is really interesting.
• 33:57
  If you look into Balestra's past and you want to talk about
• 34:00
  collusion and conflict of interest, he was at the head of the FIA.
• 34:05
  and the head of FISA at the same time.
• 34:07
  They overlap almost entirely from 1978 through 1993.
• 34:12
  So he's in control of two sanctioning bodies.
• 34:14
  How much power does Balestra really have?
• 34:17
  And again, at the end of the day, the way they paint the picture versus
• 34:20
  as we've come to understand in other ways, where Balestra is about Selling
• 34:24
  cars and what's good for business and all those kinds of things.
• 34:27
  They really create this emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader collusion
• 34:31
  between Prost and Balestra.
• 34:33
  And that's how Prost got his championships.
• 34:35
  I mean, it's like, tell me how Prost became a champion without telling me
• 34:38
  how Prost became a champion because Balestra wanted him to be champion.
• 34:42
  And that's the story that they paint in this and how Senna was robbed.
• 34:47
  And then we come back and we pan to Brazil and all of Brazil is upset.
• 34:51
  And you remember the paintings and the murals that people would have
• 34:55
  of the carpet being ripped out from underneath of Senna while Frost is there
• 34:58
  laughing and Balestra's holding the trophy and all these kinds of imagery.
• 35:01
  It's a saint's life.
• 35:02
  Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 35:04
  This is the life of a saint.
• 35:05
  This is St.
• 35:05
  Patrick walking on water.
• 35:07
  Yeah.
• 35:08
  This casting of Frost as the villain is really fascinating.
• 35:12
  But it's almost a flip side of the movies that I used to watch when I
• 35:15
  was a lad, when the British Empire characters were the goodies, whereas
• 35:18
  now every movie that I watch, it's like we're the colonial baddies.
• 35:22
  Well, they create the whole narrative of that, basically just really drop
• 35:26
  it really hot, so to speak, when they take away the win at Monaco in
• 35:30
  84, when he's driving for Toleman.
• 35:32
  All that rain's going on and all of a sudden, you know, Pross is kind
• 35:35
  of like, oh, stop the race, and then stops before the finish line and
• 35:38
  Senna goes past and all that stuff.
• 35:40
  Yeah, because the rules were that it's always from the lap before.
• 35:43
  Yeah.
• 35:43
  Nowadays, they just stop the race ages before.
• 35:46
  Yeah.
• 35:47
  Everyone would have been like, ooh, crash, ooh.
• 35:49
  Right then they were like, Oh, leave it.
• 35:51
  And only when it got really bad where they like, Oh, we better stop it.
• 35:54
  Right.
• 35:55
  Yes.
• 35:55
  Senna felt that he'd been robbed.
• 35:57
  But the other thing that they show this arguably Stefan Beloff's performance in
• 36:02
  that race was even greater than Senate.
• 36:04
  Oh yeah.
• 36:05
  No, progress through the field was even more meteoric than Senate.
• 36:09
  That would have taken away from the beatification.
• 36:11
  Yeah.
• 36:12
  Then later, obviously in.
• 36:14
  Four, they touched that and when he gets his first win with Lotus
• 36:19
  in the downpour, it's in Portugal.
• 36:21
  Estoril.
• 36:22
  Yeah.
• 36:22
  And they're trying to get him to stop the race and bow straight.
• 36:25
  He's like, no, cause Prost is still kind of in there and whatnot.
• 36:28
  Then all of a sudden, you know, what's his name from Lotus is kind
• 36:30
  of saying, you should call it.
• 36:31
  You did it in Monaco.
• 36:32
  Da, da, da, da, No, it's his entertainment.
• 36:34
  He kind of blows them off and then pros crash.
• 36:36
  And, but they finish it.
• 36:37
  That's where they really kind of laid the groundwork and solidified that,
• 36:41
  look, Bouncers was really pro pros and pro French and manipulating things.
• 36:47
  Just really being the puppet master.
• 36:48
  And so the way they continue this for hours, because this is a large
• 36:52
  chunk of the series, And we get the classic altercations at Suzuka.
• 36:56
  We get Monaco, the lap of the gods, all that kind of stuff.
• 36:59
  And I want to talk about the lap of the gods separately.
• 37:01
  He's almost going to lap pros, but the way they bring it all together at the
• 37:05
  end, before Senna and pros make up and become friends suddenly, I mean, that
• 37:10
  literally happens, it's like a 32nd thing.
• 37:12
  And you're like, wait, like you guys were trying to kill each other five
• 37:15
  minutes ago and now you're friends.
• 37:16
  So, okay, fine.
• 37:17
  The way they do it, it's beautiful.
• 37:19
  Actually.
• 37:19
  They use the Laura Harrison character as she's writing about Senna's story.
• 37:25
  And we're getting closer to the 1993, 1994 season.
• 37:28
  She writes this article in episode five ish, and it's on the headline of the
• 37:33
  motoring journal that she was writing for.
• 37:35
  And it says Senna champion, a bad example.
• 37:38
  Question mark.
• 37:39
  And now he's got a grudge against the fictitious journalist.
• 37:42
  He doesn't want to talk to her anymore.
• 37:43
  All this kind of thing.
• 37:44
  Fine.
• 37:45
  But I thought that was really, really interesting and really
• 37:48
  telling because it makes you question who is the bad guy here?
• 37:52
  Because if you watch the Senate documentary, if you do your own
• 37:55
  research, you read the books and the papers in and out of period, you
• 37:58
  start to realize Senate was a bully.
• 38:00
  To your point, the mind games that he would play.
• 38:03
  Let's be clear about what he would do, which others were just not ballsy enough.
• 38:08
  to do.
• 38:08
  He would put the car in a place where the other driver had to make a decision.
• 38:13
  Do I turn in and we crash or do I let him pass?
• 38:16
  Right.
• 38:16
  And if you let him pass, you've let him pass forever, every time you race him.
• 38:22
  And I thought it was absolutely majestic that nobody else had the cojones to do it.
• 38:27
  I thought it was absolutely majestic.
• 38:28
  Absolutely majestic.
• 38:30
  Nobody else was fast enough to be able to put themselves there.
• 38:33
  Except for Schumacher, who did the same thing.
• 38:35
  Yeah.
• 38:36
  Nowadays, everyone does the same thing.
• 38:38
  And from the days of Schumacher, really, it fundamentally changed the sport.
• 38:42
  And what we need to do is we need to almost roll back to the way
• 38:45
  that it was in the 50s, where if you touched in an open wheeler,
• 38:49
  somebody was eating hospital food.
• 38:51
  If not, you were going to their funeral or was your funeral, literally.
• 38:54
  In the old days, only Farina.
• 38:57
  Was actually gonna put the car somewhere where you let him past or wrecked.
• 39:00
  Nobody else did that.
• 39:01
  Nobody else was that aggressive.
• 39:03
  And even if you read about George Fulmer, you know, that character from American
• 39:08
  motorsport, when he raced in Formula One, he was much more aggressive than
• 39:12
  the Europeans and the Europeans hated him for it because it was like fine.
• 39:16
  Argy bargy on a dirt track in Nebraska, but you can't argy bargy at spa in the
• 39:22
  rain, but Fulmer, Race the dirt track in Nebraska and spar in the rain in a
• 39:26
  Formula One car in exactly the same way.
• 39:28
  That hadn't happened in Formula One, right?
• 39:30
  Formula One got safer throughout the 80s.
• 39:33
  You know, after that period in the early 70s when it was really bad,
• 39:37
  they took the most dangerous circuits away and it became a lot safer.
• 39:40
  When I was first watching Formula One in the 1980s, it
• 39:43
  wasn't death in the afternoon.
• 39:45
  The seat at Lotus was open because de Angelis was killed
• 39:49
  testing over the winter.
• 39:50
  I, I think, believe it or not, I'm glad you went here because there's
• 39:53
  something I think you would agree with.
• 39:55
  The way they did it was very subtle if you were paying attention.
• 39:58
  It all goes back to again, the Laura Harrison journalist character at one
• 40:01
  of the moments before she publishes.
• 40:03
  That is Sena a bad example article.
• 40:05
  She shoves the microphone and senna's face and she asks them,
• 40:09
  what do you think about what?
• 40:10
  Stuart has to say about you, and he's like, well, what do you mean?
• 40:13
  And she says, and I think it's a direct quote from Sir Jackie Stuart in that
• 40:17
  Senna ushered in the end of the era of gentlemen drivers fully a hundred percent.
• 40:22
  And at the time I didn't want to be listening to what my
• 40:25
  parents were listening to.
• 40:26
  I wanted to be listening to Slayer and that's what Senna brought.
• 40:29
  Yeah.
• 40:29
  Well, that's where he came up with one of his.
• 40:31
  Famous quote or said, if there's a gap, I'm going for the gap.
• 40:34
  If you don't go for the gap, you're not a racing driver.
• 40:36
  Right.
• 40:36
  Yeah.
• 40:37
  And that's why not the half Portuguese attractive lady reporter.
• 40:41
  That's why the little beardy dude who sat alongside Sterling Moss when he won the
• 40:45
  melee, Melia looked at that Brazilian and thought, Oh, you're something different.
• 40:49
  You're really special because Dennis Jenkinson, who wrote for motorsport,
• 40:53
  which was the magazine that I read really believed in center right from the outset.
• 40:57
  And when the others were like, he's too crashy, DSJ would
• 41:00
  always be like, no, look deeper.
• 41:01
  Look at the reasons why.
• 41:03
  And that's why in those seasons at Lotus, he ran out of gas in a lot of those races.
• 41:07
  And the British press said, Oh, it was cause he turned the turbo
• 41:10
  up to have the glory of leading.
• 41:12
  But really he never had the speed in the first place.
• 41:15
  Whereas I believed he had the speed.
• 41:17
  He just didn't strike me as the character who would do that.
• 41:19
  And years later, I realized that DSJ knew that.
• 41:22
  Sen himself was deeply hurt by the notion that he would have just wound the turbo
• 41:26
  up to have the glory of leading, right?
• 41:28
  He just was not that kind of character at all.
• 41:30
  I felt that through the TV screen, DSJ knew that for a fact having
• 41:35
  spent that quality time with it.
• 41:36
  Jenks was great.
• 41:37
  Loved him.
• 41:37
  Well, I'm glad you brought up the speed because that allows us to segue into
• 41:41
  another part of the plot, which is the infamous lap of the gods at Monaco in
• 41:46
  1988 behind the wheel of the McLaren.
• 41:49
  What's interesting about this is I feel that there's two laps of the god
• 41:52
  because he gets retribution a couple of years later at Monaco in the 90s.
• 41:56
  Where he executes, without mistake, what he wanted to achieve in 88.
• 42:02
  Now, when you listen to even the documentary, in Senna's own words, he
• 42:06
  talks about the surreal out of body experience, and how the laps just kept
• 42:12
  coming, and he was going faster, and blah blah blah, and it was Ron Dennis
• 42:16
  on the radio that distracted him, and suddenly broke his concentration.
• 42:19
  Well, he wasn't really concentrating, right?
• 42:21
  Because he was having an out of body experience, so he was
• 42:23
  driving by complete intuition.
• 42:25
  All of the sudden, And I listen to it now with much wiser ears, and I'm like,
• 42:30
  this sounds like alien abduction stories.
• 42:32
  And I'm not trying to be any sort of way towards that, but it's like, okay,
• 42:36
  just admit that you were going too fast and you screwed up and you had a
• 42:39
  tantrum and went off to your hotel room.
• 42:41
  No, no, you qualify a second and a half faster than the fastest guy in the sport.
• 42:47
  Apart from you in the same car, you were not just a bad guy.
• 42:51
  bit faster you were on another plane and you went back to your hotel that night
• 42:56
  you lay in bed and you slept and you knew that god had touched you in a special
• 43:01
  way second half is huge that's massive and so when you're in the car and driving
• 43:06
  and you're concentrating you are in the zone as they say for senna that was fully
• 43:12
  god speaking through him that's what i believe he believed his death Talent
• 43:17
  in the car was something that God had given him, and he was simply channeling.
• 43:21
  And I feel that he got high on his own supply, and that's why
• 43:24
  when Ron was like, Slow down!
• 43:26
  He was like, Oh, fuck, and put it in the barriers at Portier, right?
• 43:30
  And that whole thing of, Oh, he went back to his hotel room, he sulked.
• 43:33
  No, I didn't have any problem understanding.
• 43:35
  I can't understand these NASCAR drivers who get out of the car after
• 43:38
  a wreck and are like, My sponsor, love my wife, family, God, Jesus,
• 43:43
  better luck next time, right?
• 43:44
  No, fuck on that.
• 43:46
  I'm pissed.
• 43:47
  I lost.
• 43:48
  It was my fault.
• 43:49
  I'm sulking in my flat and I'm not talking to anyone.
• 43:52
  I understood that.
• 43:52
  That's how I would have reacted.
• 43:54
  That's why I loved him.
• 43:55
  There was really no way to get back to the pits from where he crashed at anyway.
• 43:59
  That was the other thing too.
• 43:59
  It was like, it would have been a night.
• 44:00
  It was like, it was right there.
• 44:02
  And I agree.
• 44:03
  I wouldn't say anything.
• 44:04
  Screw this.
• 44:04
  I'm going in.
• 44:05
  It's right there.
• 44:06
  Back then, you didn't have all the, what you got to do today.
• 44:09
  Like you're saying with NASCAR, any series.
• 44:11
  Oh, thank this.
• 44:12
  God bless that.
• 44:13
  Blah, blah, blah.
• 44:14
  Hey, you know, and yada, yada.
• 44:15
  You know, inside you're so pissed off.
• 44:17
  It's like, come on, you know, it's not reality.
• 44:19
  That's what I loved about Senate.
• 44:20
  It was so real.
• 44:21
  It was so authentic.
• 44:22
  The problem is the film detracts from that because what we saw in period on
• 44:27
  television was Senna's got that look.
• 44:30
  He looks like a kid that just, he just screwed up and he's going to
• 44:33
  go pout in his room kind of thing.
• 44:35
  And he's going to be punished for it or whatever, right?
• 44:37
  The way the film does it is he goes back to his hotel room.
• 44:39
  We see him go up the stairs and the next scene, his sister Vivian, who is a,
• 44:43
  Psychologist is in there appeasing him and talking to him and consoling him.
• 44:48
  And that's how we get the whole discussion about this surreal
• 44:51
  nature of his driving and how God touched his soul and all this stuff.
• 44:55
  And you're like, Oh my God.
• 44:56
  Like, yeah.
• 44:57
  Okay.
• 44:57
  And again, the Senate documentary, you hear it in Senna's voice where he
• 45:01
  explains it himself in his own words.
• 45:03
  And you're like, okay, so there's a little movie magic there.
• 45:06
  There's a lot of footwork and pedal box, which was super annoying and CGI
• 45:10
  and all this blurring of the screen.
• 45:11
  And it's cool.
• 45:12
  for the non racing enthusiast.
• 45:15
  Like, Oh, that's really cool.
• 45:16
  That's dramatic.
• 45:16
  That's a neat way that they did that to kind of exemplify it all.
• 45:20
  But I was like, okay, let's move on.
• 45:22
  Because if I look at Monaco 90, he drives exactly the same way in exactly
• 45:26
  the same car and he doesn't screw up and it's a better lap at the end of the day.
• 45:30
  Willie, what did you make of the action sequences?
• 45:33
  I read they were a bit like Ron Howard's Rush.
• 45:35
  Yes.
• 45:35
  Yeah.
• 45:36
  I found Ron Howard's Rush a little glossy and pornographic for my liking.
• 45:40
  Yeah.
• 45:41
  They used some actual real footage here and there.
• 45:44
  I wish they would have used more.
• 45:45
  The machinery was exquisite though, much like the Ferrari movie.
• 45:48
  Yes, exactly.
• 45:50
  Having access to the actual cars, obviously helped out immensely.
• 45:54
  There's that one scene, especially like they have the Tolman and they have
• 45:58
  the McLaren and P4 and all that stuff.
• 46:00
  It's that one in the dark with the Lotus, the John player special, when they show
• 46:04
  the real car in that warehouse, that was so cool to see that as Eric said is
• 46:09
  we can tell looking at it and watch it.
• 46:11
  Okay.
• 46:11
  That's just not real.
• 46:12
  That's fake.
• 46:13
  That's CGI.
• 46:14
  We don't really need to see that, but to the person that just kind
• 46:16
  of, Hey, this is entertainment value, the drive to survive crowd.
• 46:19
  I mean, is that.
• 46:19
  Which is what they're going after because that's a huge audience.
• 46:22
  Oh, this is so awesome.
• 46:24
  This is cool.
• 46:24
  I mean, how do you think they got all these people subscribe to
• 46:27
  Netflix because of Drive to Survive and got people on board with F1?
• 46:30
  I want to watch with my kid.
• 46:32
  I want to see whether or not it captures his imagination.
• 46:35
  He's 10 now.
• 46:35
  Oh, he'll like it.
• 46:36
  Yeah, I like it a lot.
• 46:37
  We'll see.
• 46:38
  I'm really fascinated to see if his classmates are interested in watching it
• 46:41
  as well and how it resonates for them.
• 46:43
  You just can't be back there going, that's not true.
• 46:45
  No, that didn't happen.
• 46:46
  You can't be critiquing it, but you got to keep your mouth shut.
• 46:48
  No, no.
• 46:49
  I'm, I'm literally gonna button my lip.
• 46:51
  Yeah.
• 46:53
  But the thing I thought was funny is how many times they went back like they
• 46:56
  would do in a Fast and the Furious film.
• 46:58
  All the shifting and the arm movements and all this, it was always the pedal box.
• 47:02
  And he's wrapping the throttle.
• 47:03
  Like he's driving a rally car.
• 47:04
  Right.
• 47:05
  Which I think comes from the famous video of him driving the NSX at
• 47:11
  Suzuka for Honda, where he's wrapping the throttle to try to get the car
• 47:15
  to be more pliable in the corners.
• 47:17
  So they just translated that to, this is how he drives his Ferrari.
• 47:20
  formula car, which I don't think you would be that erratic and that
• 47:23
  not smooth because you don't want a formula car to step around a corner
• 47:27
  like it's drifting or whatever.
• 47:29
  So I saw that as, for me as a detractor in terms of saying,
• 47:32
  well, this is how Senna drove.
• 47:34
  Like he was a rally driver and he's not.
• 47:36
  Sam Posey did a piece that I'm not sure if it's still on YouTube, but he did
• 47:40
  a piece analyzing Senna 20 years ago.
• 47:43
  I mean, Sam's like.
• 47:44
  Alzheimer's now, isn't he?
• 47:45
  Yeah.
• 47:46
  In that piece, he broke down the genius by saying that he felt like
• 47:50
  in certain corners, not all of them, medium speed turns, Senna
• 47:54
  would bend his line around the turn.
• 47:57
  He would enter on a more shallow entry, turn in at the normal point,
• 48:01
  but have a more shallow entry, and then tighten his line around the apex.
• 48:06
  So for Posey, he sort of chopped at the steering wheel.
• 48:09
  On around that.
• 48:10
  So perhaps it was replicated.
• 48:12
  Now I'm not seeing that NSX footage.
• 48:14
  Interesting thought with the pedal box.
• 48:16
  And by the way, the series is sponsored largely in part by Honda.
• 48:20
  They even have a special advertisement that they do at the beginning.
• 48:23
  You've probably seen it starts out.
• 48:25
  You won't remember my name.
• 48:26
  It's all about perseverance or whatever.
• 48:28
  So the series is backed by Honda.
• 48:30
  It's very pro Honda.
• 48:31
  So that's why I was sort of like, I wonder if they got the
• 48:33
  inspiration from that NSX video.
• 48:35
  How do we talk about the relationship with Honda?
• 48:39
  Then in the movie, because all the time he was at McLaren, the talk
• 48:43
  was that Prost was the one that was the outsider because Senna had this
• 48:47
  special relationship with Honda.
• 48:48
  And I felt like, yeah, Senna had this special relationship with Honda was
• 48:52
  because when you worked with Senna, Senna delivers, if most people deliver a
• 48:56
  hundred percent, Senna delivers at 110%.
• 48:59
  And that's what Honda wanted.
• 49:01
  Honda aren't.
• 49:02
  In the French boys club, Honda aren't European, right?
• 49:05
  Honda are looking for somebody who is going to arrive early,
• 49:09
  not get drunk and stay late.
• 49:11
  That's what they want.
• 49:12
  And Senna with the engineering feedback combined with the utter
• 49:16
  brain out commitment on the track.
• 49:18
  He was exactly what they wanted.
• 49:20
  Of course they did enjoy karaoke.
• 49:22
  I was going to say.
• 49:23
  I would have been great if they would have had, uh, cell phones back then
• 49:25
  and see them guys singing karaoke.
• 49:27
  Because that's the one interesting scene when they're kind of
• 49:29
  negotiating that with Honda.
• 49:30
  It's Ron Dennis and Senna.
• 49:32
  And Ochiro Honda, old man Honda.
• 49:35
  Yeah, and they're, and then like the one guy, like tell him, come up here on
• 49:38
  stage and let Ron talk, you know, kind of a whole interesting little scene.
• 49:42
  But yeah, it was kind of funny seeing them.
• 49:45
  I was so bad.
• 49:46
  I don't know if that really happened, but it's really cool to imagine
• 49:49
  that that might have happened.
• 49:50
  Old man Honda, Senna, and Ron Dennis drunk in a karaoke club.
• 49:56
  Pretty much.
• 49:56
  He's drinking whiskey.
• 49:58
  I mean, he takes a, I mean, you can see it.
• 49:59
  It's a great picture because who's really going to tell what actually happened.
• 50:02
  Ron Dennis would be the only one.
• 50:03
  You know, Ron's not going to say anything.
• 50:05
  But hey, let's paint a picture.
• 50:06
  It's entertaining.
• 50:07
  The gentleman he goes up on stage with, and pardon me for forgetting
• 50:10
  his name, from Honda, Becomes a major secondary player from that point forward.
• 50:16
  You always see him with Senna.
• 50:18
  And then there's the arguments with Prost about the favoritism that the
• 50:22
  engineer from Honda is giving to Senna.
• 50:24
  And then even in the very last episode, right before the race at
• 50:28
  Imola, you see a glimpse of the guy from Honda sort of giving him the
• 50:31
  what's up nod and that cast of people, so that's how Honda kind of places
• 50:35
  themselves almost product placement.
• 50:37
  Outside of the car throughout the rest of the series, it's clever of Honda
• 50:41
  to be involved because the legend of Santa would not be what it was.
• 50:45
  Were it not for those Honda motors, they were just the
• 50:48
  class of the field in period.
• 50:49
  Oh yeah, definitely.
• 50:50
  In that scene, Mr.
• 50:52
  Honda proposes the question to Ron Dennis.
• 50:55
  Well, do you think Post is going to like having Santa as his teammate?
• 50:59
  And Ryan kind of does a chuckle if he's got a Honda engine, he
• 51:02
  doesn't care who his teammate is.
• 51:04
  So along those lines, and it's basically making the fact is, you
• 51:07
  know, that's the superior engine.
• 51:08
  That's the engine you want to have.
• 51:10
  All they did was basically have it.
• 51:12
  It was Prost and Senna and the McLaren stuff.
• 51:14
  They really didn't get into it when Prost left McLaren.
• 51:17
  All of a sudden, Prost is retired.
• 51:18
  And it's like, okay.
• 51:19
  They followed the theme of the fastest driver wants the fastest car.
• 51:23
  So he left Holman to go to Lotus.
• 51:25
  Because Lotus was perceived as the fastest team.
• 51:28
  He left Lotus to go to McLaren because McLaren was beating Lotus hand over fist.
• 51:32
  And then he left McLaren to go to Williams because Williams had,
• 51:35
  quote unquote, the magic carpet.
• 51:37
  All the electronic nannies that were helping Damon Hill and Nigel Mansell.
• 51:41
  And all those guys to win.
• 51:43
  So he goes to Williams in the end, and then he gets the rug pulled out
• 51:47
  from under him, pun intended, because Ballester decides, well, we're going to
• 51:50
  take all the nannies away, but it leveled the playing field for all the drivers
• 51:55
  because nobody got the electronic nanny.
• 51:57
  It didn't level the playing field because Williams had not done
• 52:00
  any conventional development.
• 52:02
  for two years.
• 52:03
  Two years Williams had been Active Ride.
• 52:05
  Now the Active Ride was taken away.
• 52:07
  Some teams hadn't ever developed Active Ride.
• 52:09
  Some of them had continued with a crappy form of Active Ride that was
• 52:13
  still like half active but half not.
• 52:16
  The point is that it wasn't a level in the playing field.
• 52:18
  At the beginning of 94, Williams had been the best car and immediately
• 52:22
  went to having no development.
• 52:24
  So Senna had struggled so hard.
• 52:26
  To get into what became an unbelievably twitchy, difficult car to drive.
• 52:30
  I just want to say, I'm not sure if they got into this at all, but
• 52:34
  I wrote a piece years ago and it's since again, cropped up on Wikipedia.
• 52:38
  And I'm like, Oh, you know, it begins with the pit lane fire in 1994, right?
• 52:42
  Josh Verstappen's most memorable moment.
• 52:45
  The Verstappen name's first entry in Formula One history.
• 52:49
  Flavio Briatore cheats the fuel rig.
• 52:52
  So it pumps more gas into the tank.
• 52:54
  That means the fuel spills everywhere and Verstappen's car catches on fire.
• 52:58
  And this is Briatore cheating.
• 53:00
  And Briatore was cheating with traction control.
• 53:03
  He was cheating with the fuel rig.
• 53:05
  And that put Senna on the back foot throughout 1994.
• 53:09
  It was hard to watch because after 92 and 93, where the car just fell further
• 53:15
  and further, Off the pace for 94, finally got the, I mean, I'm not sure if they do
• 53:20
  this in the series, but it was well known during 1993 that he was racing from a
• 53:24
  power and on a race by race contract, he said he would drive for Williams for free.
• 53:29
  One scene that how expensive it was.
• 53:31
  And I think we all know it was a million dollars a race.
• 53:33
  Remember it served me correct.
• 53:34
  It was something obscene number, but yeah, they touched on that,
• 53:38
  that it was a race by race basis.
• 53:39
  And the other thing that we get later.
• 53:42
  That culminates from all this is the pro Senna thing abruptly stops
• 53:46
  and they don't talk much about when pros went to Ferrari and all that.
• 53:49
  They just sort of like, they like, he went over there and that's the end of that.
• 53:52
  And then they mentioned Schumacher like twice, the German at Benetton
• 53:57
  that he's fighting with, but they never show they don't have anybody
• 53:59
  play Schumacher or anything like that.
• 54:01
  And they don't really talk about it anymore because.
• 54:03
  At this point, we're five episodes in out of six and we need to wrap things up.
• 54:08
  But there's a bigger piece that we missed that carries over three
• 54:11
  episodes and take it or leave it.
• 54:14
  It goes back to what we mentioned in the beginning about the sexual aggressive
• 54:17
  nature and Senna has a type, you know, we go from Lillian to the princess
• 54:21
  of Monaco, which that was hilarious.
• 54:23
  And then we usher in Xuxa, famed Brazilian TV host, actress, singer, you know, she
• 54:28
  was popular with children's programming, even some here in the United States.
• 54:31
  They had this weird undertone, if you kind of paid attention, where every time
• 54:35
  he sort of did something with a woman, something went wrong, or he lost a race.
• 54:39
  You could attribute the lap of the gods in 88, to the fact that he hooked up
• 54:44
  with the princess the night before.
• 54:45
  Be a king.
• 54:46
  But did he in real life?
• 54:48
  I have no idea.
• 54:49
  I don't either.
• 54:49
  Nobody knows, but the joke would be, you know, our friends.
• 54:52
  Steve and Izzy from everything I learned from movies, Steve would
• 54:54
  say that he had post nut clarity going into that Monaco race.
• 54:58
  But the point is when we get to Shusha, I remember that Christmas special where,
• 55:03
  you know, he leans in and the innuendos and they showed it in America on PBS
• 55:08
  or something like that or whatever.
• 55:09
  Like you never knew and you thought something was weird and was going on.
• 55:12
  But what I didn't know in period was they were a couple.
• 55:15
  The series made it sound like they were going to get married and they were going
• 55:18
  to have kids and he was going to retire from racing and Shusha was now his world.
• 55:22
  Then comes the breakup when they broke up at the end of 89 in Australia.
• 55:26
  Then he has this shit season the next season.
• 55:29
  But the worst part of it, William, tell me this, this was not a direct ripoff of
• 55:33
  days of thunder, that pillow talk scene where he's like, Oh, it was so cringy.
• 55:39
  You could have deleted it completely from the film.
• 55:41
  It was unnecessary.
• 55:42
  Yeah.
• 55:43
  Did all this stuff with Shusha actually happen again?
• 55:46
  They spent the better part of three episodes.
• 55:48
  Using her as part of the plot.
• 55:51
  That intertwined deeply.
• 55:53
  Is that the message they're trying to put out there?
• 55:56
  That when he gets involved with a woman, all of a sudden shit happens and he
• 55:59
  drives bad because his mind's not clear?
• 56:01
  Because again, you know, unless you're in that room, you don't know what's going on.
• 56:04
  And even if they were talking to his family, they wouldn't know exactly
• 56:08
  what was going on behind closed doors.
• 56:10
  So you don't know.
• 56:11
  So it's all kind of just say, well, he's together, but we can, it was unnecessary.
• 56:15
  Yeah.
• 56:15
  You could touch on the fact that if you wanted to know his personal side,
• 56:18
  a little bit was the fact is, you know, they had the relationship and
• 56:20
  it seemed like they had, they were going to go through him, but then also,
• 56:22
  you know what, our careers are just too busy and we're just too famous.
• 56:25
  We can't make this happen.
• 56:26
  We're done.
• 56:27
  And here's some obligatory boobs because of the HBO crowd that wants to see them.
• 56:30
  Yeah.
• 56:31
  It shows some TNA a little bit on there too.
• 56:33
  You know, I was surprised over there going that route because they really
• 56:36
  didn't touch on the fact his religious aspect of it, because he was a very
• 56:39
  religious guy, you know, they kind of mentioned it, but all his philanthropy
• 56:43
  that he did in Brazil and what he does and still going today, like very, very
• 56:48
  healthy billions and millions of dollars.
• 56:50
  Did Sanina get a mention?
• 56:52
  Sanina was shown on a t shirt.
• 56:54
  That's how they did that.
• 56:55
  And he was wearing it during one of the recreation, I think it was the
• 56:58
  driver's meeting that he got up and left.
• 57:00
  He was wearing the Sanina t shirt.
• 57:02
  Yeah.
• 57:02
  And again, it was six episodes long.
• 57:04
  Then you think, well, maybe they're just trying to squeeze stuff in.
• 57:07
  You know what?
• 57:07
  I think they could have find some, put it in there.
• 57:09
  But again, it's like the story they kind of wanted to tell.
• 57:12
  You know, all of a sudden they just kind of cut off from
• 57:14
  the McLaren stuff with Prost.
• 57:17
  Now all of a sudden he's at Williams, you know, last episode, they're
• 57:19
  delving into that tragic weekend.
• 57:21
  They didn't like get into anything about the buildup to it.
• 57:24
  They didn't get anything like about the season, him going to Williams
• 57:26
  and doing any testing, anything.
• 57:28
  It's just all of a sudden they're there.
• 57:31
  They go into that pretty in depth in regards to all the tragedy that happened
• 57:34
  with, you know, Barrichello's crash.
• 57:36
  Kind of expand on that, talking with Barrichello after the crash and, Oh,
• 57:40
  I'm fine, I'm alright, this and that.
• 57:42
  But then, the thing happened with Ratzenberger, and then you really
• 57:46
  start seeing, set aside of it.
• 57:48
  Because that's the other thing they really touch on is, you know, he was
• 57:50
  very driver safety oriented, even though he kind of was a bully on the track.
• 57:54
  I don't think we should be racing.
• 57:56
  It's now, you know, hey, you know, we've had these tragic accidents.
• 57:58
  I think we should be making more statement.
• 58:00
  And of course now, hey, the show must go on basically.
• 58:03
  He was a completely reasonable man off the track.
• 58:05
  Yes, completely psychotic on the track.
• 58:08
  That was what I remember.
• 58:09
  Could you bring that up because that's another thread that they continue to
• 58:12
  pull from the very first episode and Senna was just like Belligerent about
• 58:17
  I settle my problems on the racetrack.
• 58:20
  You could have turned it into a drinking game.
• 58:22
  How many times that phrase was used throughout the series, which gave me
• 58:25
  pause when we get to Tamburello, should we go here, William uncorked that baby.
• 58:30
  All right, here we go.
• 58:31
  Buckle yourself up, John.
• 58:33
  Here you go.
• 58:34
  With that context in mind, my wife said something as she was watching the last
• 58:38
  episode with me and seeing the crash footage of Tamburello for the first time
• 58:42
  as someone who had never seen it before.
• 58:44
  She goes.
• 58:45
  Did he drive off intentionally?
• 58:47
  And I stopped for a second.
• 58:48
  I said, wait, wait, wait, hold on back that up.
• 58:51
  And I looked at it and I looked, I looked at it again and I went
• 58:53
  back and I've rewatched the Tamburello crash a couple of times.
• 58:55
  And it made me think if I use the lens of the Netflix series and that
• 59:00
  aggressive undertone of, I settle my problems on the track, going into
• 59:06
  that race at Imola, he was angry at the FIA, especially Max Mosley.
• 59:12
  He wanted the race to be stopped.
• 59:13
  Ratzenberger is killed.
• 59:15
  Barrichello is in the hospital.
• 59:16
  There is crash after crash after crash.
• 59:18
  The track surface is terrible.
• 59:20
  It was a very like Jackie Stewart stopped the race.
• 59:22
  We shouldn't be doing this, but he calls his mother from his hotel room,
• 59:26
  which by the way, the hotel room is nothing like what you depicted in
• 59:29
  any of your stories or photographs.
• 59:30
  It's very nice.
• 59:31
  It's like the Ritz Carlton in comparison.
• 59:33
  He calls his mother, who I believe would have told him to not race that day.
• 59:38
  She goes, you do what you're going to do.
• 59:40
  You're going to race because you always race.
• 59:42
  You're not going to not race tomorrow or whatever.
• 59:45
  And then you can feel the dramatic buildup and all this kind of thing.
• 59:48
  And again.
• 59:48
  Listening to my wife's very innocent words, thinking about what Netflix did,
• 59:53
  I speculate if he didn't want to make the ultimate statement to stop the race
• 59:58
  by purposefully putting the car in the wall, and he miscalculated how fast
• 1:00:03
  and how much he needed to slow down.
• 1:00:05
  Eric, Jesus died for our sins.
• 1:00:07
  Thank you.
• 1:00:08
  Jesus died.
• 1:00:08
  Died so motor racing could live.
• 1:00:11
  I don't believe it for a minute.
• 1:00:13
  You can get that impression.
• 1:00:15
  I don't want to encourage people to sit there watching crash footage, but
• 1:00:18
  PK had a wreck that he thinks ended his career as the fastest guy, right?
• 1:00:24
  He thinks he was never as fast and his eyes certainly weren't
• 1:00:27
  the same after his Imola wreck.
• 1:00:29
  There's footage of that.
• 1:00:30
  I remember in period, Berger's rat there, where Berger hits, spins a
• 1:00:34
  little bit, then the car catches fire.
• 1:00:36
  On each occasion, the car spears off the track.
• 1:00:40
  At its route, I don't subscribe to the broken steering column theory.
• 1:00:44
  I subscribe to a theory that has the car riding low because of reduced tire
• 1:00:49
  pressures, because of the time behind the pace car, and the fact that the inside
• 1:00:53
  of Tamburello was bumpy, and Senna warned Hill, his teammate, not to go there.
• 1:00:58
  But Senna puts the car there and you can see that from the onboard
• 1:01:01
  footage of Michael Schumacher's car.
• 1:01:03
  In fact, from that onboard footage, you can see that Senna's car sparks
• 1:01:07
  more than anybody else's there.
• 1:01:09
  That's right.
• 1:01:09
  I came here to win and I'm a go karter, so I'm going to set the car up real low.
• 1:01:14
  So his car was lower than anybody else's.
• 1:01:17
  So yeah, me, he tobogganed off.
• 1:01:19
  There's unfinished business.
• 1:01:21
  People don't commit suicide if they've got a full diary.
• 1:01:23
  He had a full diary beating the Germans.
• 1:01:26
  And to your point about tire pressure, he was bitching when they
• 1:01:29
  were behind the safety car, the safety car wasn't going fast enough.
• 1:01:31
  It wasn't the safety car.
• 1:01:33
  So for me, when I went to Imola in 2004, one of the single most
• 1:01:37
  awesome things was you could go in the garages, the garages were open.
• 1:01:41
  There was also that Opel Vectra.
• 1:01:43
  Pace car.
• 1:01:44
  I was a sales rep in England.
• 1:01:46
  We had cars like that.
• 1:01:47
  They were called Vauxhalls, but that was the top of the range one.
• 1:01:50
  It was the double overhead cam, 16 valve, two liter.
• 1:01:55
  Hold onto your hats.
• 1:01:57
  It made 190 horse.
• 1:01:58
  Oh, that much?
• 1:01:59
  190.
• 1:02:00
  Yeah.
• 1:02:00
  And it might just crack 140 miles an hour.
• 1:02:04
  Nowadays.
• 1:02:05
  The pace cars are much faster than that, aren't they?
• 1:02:07
  In order to keep the tyre temperatures up.
• 1:02:09
  Let's be clear, that car was the first year of safety cars.
• 1:02:13
  One of the first times.
• 1:02:14
  Yeah.
• 1:02:15
  That's even the first time a safety car had ever been deployed.
• 1:02:18
  And yes, at the time Senna did express.
• 1:02:20
  Concerns about the tire pressures and all that.
• 1:02:22
  Look, there's no way you could have kept the tires up to temperature.
• 1:02:24
  No way.
• 1:02:25
  No.
• 1:02:25
  How?
• 1:02:26
  No, I will say it's an interesting theory or proposition.
• 1:02:29
  If you could look at everything on it and his viewpoint and see, yeah.
• 1:02:33
  But again, I think if I was going to do it, I would have done it at a much slower
• 1:02:37
  corner, not doing 190 miles an hour.
• 1:02:39
  I would have probably picked one when I was doing about 60 miles an hour.
• 1:02:41
  done something on those lines.
• 1:02:43
  I mean, cause what is his goal would have been to try and get the race stopped?
• 1:02:46
  He knew in his body he wouldn't stop the race.
• 1:02:48
  Why crash on a different corner than everybody else that already crashed on?
• 1:02:51
  Cause that's the corner everybody was crashing in.
• 1:02:53
  True, but again, he knew though, they wouldn't stop the race then if he
• 1:02:56
  crashed because they don't stop the race.
• 1:02:57
  What doesn't discount my new theory.
• 1:03:00
  Sabotage theory is out of the question and I never believed the steering theory.
• 1:03:04
  I'm sort of eh on the cold tires.
• 1:03:06
  The electronic nannies regulation thing is another thing you could consider.
• 1:03:09
  You know, these are not the era of ground effects cars.
• 1:03:12
  And to your point, John, if he lowers the car, he can artificially
• 1:03:15
  create ground effects that way.
• 1:03:17
  So maybe that was part of his plan, whatever.
• 1:03:19
  But what we don't have, we don't have substantial data from the
• 1:03:24
  car to disprove whether he was accelerating, constant throttle.
• 1:03:29
  or braking going through that corner and you want to tell me that even at 34
• 1:03:33
  years old senna's reaction time and they made a big point of this in the series
• 1:03:38
  that he needed to feel the car we got to tighten those straps so he can feel
• 1:03:43
  every vibration of the car that he didn't know something wasn't right Approaching
• 1:03:48
  the corner in the corner mid corner The only thing that can disprove that he
• 1:03:52
  didn't go straight off is looking at the data from the car if it actually
• 1:03:56
  exists Because if he was full throttle through the corner, let's just say that.
• 1:04:00
  Yes, you're right.
• 1:04:01
  He planned his attack He set the car up and the car just gave way
• 1:04:05
  and tobogganed off the track.
• 1:04:06
  It's not a corner in that period.
• 1:04:09
  Tamburello is not a corner, it's a straight, right?
• 1:04:11
  The kink.
• 1:04:11
  How does Keith Coe define a straight?
• 1:04:14
  A straight is where you can do what you like with the throttle.
• 1:04:16
  So from the time that you come across the start finish straight at Imola at
• 1:04:21
  that time, the throttle is flat until you are through Tamburello absolutely
• 1:04:26
  flat, then you slow down at the end to go into Tosa, or whatever that corner
• 1:04:30
  is at the bottom of the hill there.
• 1:04:31
  All it was a case of doing was deciding where you put the car on the track.
• 1:04:36
  Go back and watch the crash, which I'm sure you've done.
• 1:04:38
  The trajectory is like laser straight compared to he's mid turn and the
• 1:04:43
  car just under steers off the track and he ends up in the barrier.
• 1:04:46
  He literally goes straight into the wall.
• 1:04:48
  Yeah, it spears off.
• 1:04:49
  It's not like an understeer y.
• 1:04:50
  Correct.
• 1:04:51
  You're right.
• 1:04:51
  It doesn't seem to be.
• 1:04:52
  That's why I always want to use the word toboggan.
• 1:04:55
  To me, it's like toboggan.
• 1:04:56
  Straight off the track.
• 1:04:57
  If there was race data, and even if he was speared off, he would have
• 1:05:01
  reacted by a change in steering angle and slamming on the brakes.
• 1:05:06
  The race data would prove conclusively how he reacted to what was happening,
• 1:05:10
  even At high triple digit speeds.
• 1:05:13
  I thought he had tried to apply the brake.
• 1:05:16
  We can all think different things.
• 1:05:17
  Again, I want race data.
• 1:05:20
  Well, I mean, isn't that one thing about it that the car has been broken up?
• 1:05:23
  Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  We don't know where the car is gone.
• 1:05:25
  And that is one of the things where if it was around.
• 1:05:28
  We could in future do different tests than we were able to do in period
• 1:05:33
  to maybe work out what happened.
• 1:05:34
  Well, they made it disappear because I think they knew in their mind
• 1:05:37
  that the Italian course because they've set precedent about going
• 1:05:40
  after like Caro and stuff like that.
• 1:05:41
  Didn't they try and go after Frank Williams and charge him
• 1:05:44
  with manslaughter or something?
• 1:05:45
  But then they they couldn't look at the car because oh,
• 1:05:48
  we broke it apart or whatever.
• 1:05:49
  And they try and go after him legally.
• 1:05:51
  That's where I get the whole sabotage theory is that somebody sabotaged
• 1:05:54
  the steering and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:05:56
  And all this kind of thing.
• 1:05:56
  That's where that came from because of the accusations against Frank Williams
• 1:06:01
  that they tampered with the car.
• 1:06:02
  But why would you do that to your prized horse?
• 1:06:05
  That doesn't make sense.
• 1:06:06
  And here's where I, and I'm kind of happy they did.
• 1:06:08
  They really didn't get into theories.
• 1:06:10
  No.
• 1:06:10
  What cause they just said, Hey, he crashed and he died.
• 1:06:13
  They really didn't get into touch either that, oh yeah, he was kind
• 1:06:16
  of alive for a bit after it actually was, according to Sid Watkins, you
• 1:06:20
  know, he was still alive for a bit.
• 1:06:22
  I don't know how long after, but not much, but, you know, they really didn't
• 1:06:25
  delve into that, which is good, I thought.
• 1:06:26
  It's like, why start to, you know, oh, maybe this or whatnot.
• 1:06:29
  Oh, hey, he crashed on purpose, you know, creating those candle worms.
• 1:06:33
  But it gets there and gets to that point.
• 1:06:35
  Then obviously they go on after the fact, briefly on the
• 1:06:38
  funeral, everything like that.
• 1:06:39
  I thought they could have gone into more too about his legacy in regards
• 1:06:42
  to what after the fact and what up till now, I mean, even today, he is
• 1:06:47
  such a mythical figure in auto racing.
• 1:06:50
  He is such an inspiration, you know, even to kids that never saw
• 1:06:54
  him race, they just know who he is.
• 1:06:55
  How old was Lewis Hamilton when he raced, right?
• 1:06:58
  Lewis Hamilton was younger than my son when he signed up.
• 1:07:00
  Yeah.
• 1:07:01
  But this was the thing that I jotted down two topics in this sort of thing.
• 1:07:05
  The theme section that we're in is greatness and the center difference,
• 1:07:09
  and that's sort of the same thing.
• 1:07:10
  Does the series convey the center difference properly?
• 1:07:14
  Does it convey what made him so great?
• 1:07:16
  Does it convey why the series is about him rather than about any one of the
• 1:07:20
  other guys in that driver briefing?
• 1:07:21
  No, it's exactly what I summarized in the introduction
• 1:07:25
  in that it's about nationalism.
• 1:07:27
  It's about pride.
• 1:07:29
  It's about being the hope of a people.
• 1:07:30
  That's how it ends.
• 1:07:31
  That whole theme is cemented.
• 1:07:34
  With his win at Interlagos in 91, and that carries through the last episode.
• 1:07:37
  And to William's point, they glaze over the funeral because Brazil is heartbroken.
• 1:07:42
  Jesus is dead.
• 1:07:43
  The hero has fallen with his shielder on it.
• 1:07:46
  And that's where they leave you, and then it pans to the very famous.
• 1:07:50
  Speech of inspiration and hope by Senna himself.
• 1:07:53
  And I'm including it in the articles.
• 1:07:54
  If people have never seen it, they can watch it.
• 1:07:56
  But it ends with Senna talking to the camera, breaking the fourth wall.
• 1:08:00
  In his own words, this message of hope for the world.
• 1:08:03
  The actor or the real Senna?
• 1:08:05
  The real Senna.
• 1:08:06
  And that's where they leave it.
• 1:08:07
  You're still like, what did I just see?
• 1:08:10
  What happened here?
• 1:08:11
  You have a sense and understanding that he is a great driver.
• 1:08:15
  But we've had this argument before about greatness.
• 1:08:18
  If you compare Senna to Fangio, if you compare Senna to Schumacher, if you
• 1:08:22
  compare to Lewis Hamilton, it's like always in period in the machinery and you
• 1:08:26
  can justify why he was great at the time.
• 1:08:28
  He was great.
• 1:08:29
  I'm not saying that Senna wasn't a great person.
• 1:08:32
  And I'm again, not saying that he committed suicide or anything like
• 1:08:34
  that, but there is still a lot of mystique around this story and
• 1:08:37
  there's answers that we don't have.
• 1:08:39
  And I don't think we're ever going to get.
• 1:08:41
  I hate to use the word.
• 1:08:43
  But they mentioned it once in regards to his work ethic, you know, and he was
• 1:08:48
  very well known that this guy's just unbelievable in regards to work ethic.
• 1:08:51
  And they really didn't get into that too.
• 1:08:52
  And the other aspect I think that they should have touched
• 1:08:55
  on more too is, I mean, he was, had an engineering background.
• 1:08:57
  Mine.
• 1:08:58
  So he knew what he was talking about.
• 1:09:00
  He wasn't just some schlep.
• 1:09:01
  The guy was like, well, it's just doing a little of this.
• 1:09:03
  So figure it out.
• 1:09:04
  Then I'll go drive it again.
• 1:09:05
  See if we fixed it.
• 1:09:06
  He had input and worked on the cars and knew what it was doing and how
• 1:09:09
  to fix that and correct it to see if it would help solve the issue.
• 1:09:13
  Yeah.
• 1:09:13
  My understanding is he had good rapport with the mechanics.
• 1:09:16
  Yes.
• 1:09:17
  They respected his work ethic.
• 1:09:19
  Obviously, they didn't like it if he crashed, but they respected the
• 1:09:22
  level of commitment that he brought and that if they'd made a change,
• 1:09:25
  he wouldn't just go out and be like, man, if they made a change, that
• 1:09:28
  would be reflected in his performance.
• 1:09:31
  And of course, it's that element that Michael Schumacher takes to
• 1:09:35
  the nth degree and allowed Michael Schumacher to turn Formula One into
• 1:09:39
  a procession for a number of years.
• 1:09:41
  That would go more to us automotive people, and we'd have loved to have seen
• 1:09:45
  it, but again, they're making a piece to ride this, try to survive a wave.
• 1:09:50
  They're trying to make this appealing to a mass audience, and especially
• 1:09:54
  a mass audience that their knowledge and history of Formula 1 auto
• 1:09:59
  racing itself is very minimal.
• 1:10:01
  So a lot of these people are just getting into it.
• 1:10:03
  They've only been for a few years.
• 1:10:04
  You know, they're on the periphery of it.
• 1:10:05
  You know, now all of a sudden they're kind of delving into it.
• 1:10:07
  It has to be an on ramp for people.
• 1:10:09
  Yeah.
• 1:10:10
  So one thought I had Hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 1:10:11
  Wait, wait, wait.
• 1:10:12
  The one other thing that it does do though is, even though he doesn't
• 1:10:15
  qualify age wise, it enters him into that mysterious 27 club, they call it.
• 1:10:21
  Like a Kurt Cobain or an Amy Winehouse, where we don't know the whole story.
• 1:10:24
  story.
• 1:10:25
  It was a tragic death.
• 1:10:26
  There's a lot of people in that realm.
• 1:10:27
  And so in my opinion, it depicts him in that way where it's like,
• 1:10:31
  you should now understand that this person was larger than life.
• 1:10:35
  You might not have the whole story and you might not need
• 1:10:38
  all the details, but understand.
• 1:10:40
  That he is in a category with these other folks that were taken from us too early.
• 1:10:44
  And what could have been, if he was still alive today, he'd be in his 70s.
• 1:10:48
  Let's be real.
• 1:10:48
  We don't know.
• 1:10:49
  Well, he'd be Martin Brundle now, wouldn't he?
• 1:10:54
  That's a really profound comparison though.
• 1:10:56
  The comparison with Amy Winehouse and Kurt Cobain.
• 1:10:59
  That's better than my Elvis and Monroe.
• 1:11:01
  Eric, you've really hit the nail on the head with those
• 1:11:04
  contemporary 90s characters.
• 1:11:06
  And what I wanted to ask you guys a little bit about was I feel like
• 1:11:11
  the reason why, if you were a movie studio, you would have greenlighted
• 1:11:15
  this, despite the Cappadia film, the sort of retelling of the Cappadia film.
• 1:11:20
  If I'm a movie executive and I've funded this, I want big shoulder dresses.
• 1:11:25
  I want cocaine white Ferrari Testarossas, particularly.
• 1:11:30
  I want this to look as cool as Miami Vice looked in period.
• 1:11:35
  If I'm signing the checks, that's what I want it to look like.
• 1:11:38
  Did this piece look like good?
• 1:11:39
  Yes.
• 1:11:39
  Yeah.
• 1:11:40
  You would have thought Ron Howard did this movie, much like Rush, but it was done by
• 1:11:44
  a crew of South Americans and Portuguese.
• 1:11:46
  I mean, it is not even filmed in English.
• 1:11:49
  I watched it in the native Portuguese with English subtitles.
• 1:11:51
  There are dubbed versions.
• 1:11:53
  The whole cast was mostly non American.
• 1:11:56
  You look at the credits and stuff.
• 1:11:57
  I mean, you're like, this was produced out of the norm.
• 1:12:00
  Even for Netflix, which is fine because I took it like Money Heist
• 1:12:05
  and some of the other foreign shows that Netflix has brought to the
• 1:12:08
  table, which have been exceptional.
• 1:12:10
  So it's slightly a league above like a Money Heist and some of
• 1:12:13
  those other programs because it has that quality to it that you would
• 1:12:16
  expect from a Ron Howard film.
• 1:12:18
  It is that good looking and the machinery is fantastic.
• 1:12:21
  Again, very, very good.
• 1:12:22
  The pink jumpers.
• 1:12:25
  So there's good with bad, but again, like I said at the beginning, I would
• 1:12:29
  recommend this to both the non racing enthusiasts to get an idea of what Senna's
• 1:12:34
  life was like, but also to the die hard Formula One fans that maybe know even more
• 1:12:39
  than we do to say, you will enjoy this.
• 1:12:41
  It's a good retelling of There are other options out there for you.
• 1:12:45
  So I wouldn't just pass it over and say, Eh, I know the Senna story,
• 1:12:49
  because there are other nuggets in there, like the Shusha thing is a prime
• 1:12:52
  example that I was like, Wow, okay.
• 1:12:54
  I always like when I walk away from something like this, mockumentary or
• 1:12:57
  documentary, going, that's interesting.
• 1:13:00
  I'm going to pull that thread and I'm going to dig a little deeper.
• 1:13:02
  Yeah, because they don't tell, I'm going to say, fabricate lies.
• 1:13:05
  Don't know that never happened.
• 1:13:06
  You know, just for the story to try and make it even bigger, whatever
• 1:13:10
  you want to say it would be.
• 1:13:11
  You know, they stay true to the history of it.
• 1:13:14
  They just like omit some things and maybe gloss over some
• 1:13:17
  things and that kind of stuff.
• 1:13:18
  But it's not like they take some story, which we would know in depth or know
• 1:13:22
  what happened and just totally change it.
• 1:13:24
  Just for the storylines, which is good.
• 1:13:25
  Well, it also benefits from the fact that this happened basically through
• 1:13:29
  the eighties and nineties, and there's a ton of file footage to pull from.
• 1:13:34
  Again, I say, when you watch the press conferences, the interviews, when
• 1:13:38
  Senate takes his stand and basically says the FIA is a bunch of idiots, all
• 1:13:42
  that was taken from primary sources and they reenacted, they dramatize those
• 1:13:47
  sources, but they did them exactly.
• 1:13:49
  And they were beautiful and they were brilliant.
• 1:13:51
  Are they convincing?
• 1:13:52
  Oh, hell yeah.
• 1:13:53
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:13:53
  When you watch, it's worth the time.
• 1:13:56
  I guess the one nice thing is you can break it up.
• 1:13:58
  It's not like you got to sit there and watch it, like a two hour movie.
• 1:14:01
  You know, Hey, you got an hour here, hour there.
• 1:14:03
  We had time.
• 1:14:03
  You did, but you don't have to do that.
• 1:14:05
  Yeah.
• 1:14:06
  I had to break it up because I was writing so many notes.
• 1:14:08
  I wanted to digest.
• 1:14:10
  Every episode by itself and then I re review my notes.
• 1:14:12
  I was a little bit more pragmatic about it.
• 1:14:15
  But yes, you could binge it on a Saturday in front of the fireplace if you want to.
• 1:14:19
  But space it out because there's so much there.
• 1:14:21
  Again, every episode feels like a movie because there's a lot
• 1:14:25
  happening very quickly that they're jamming into a 60 minute format.
• 1:14:29
  You'll definitely enjoy it.
• 1:14:30
  There's no doubt about that.
• 1:14:31
  Yeah, you'll definitely enjoy it.
• 1:14:33
  And I recommend people to, you know, definitely watch it.
• 1:14:35
  Not force it on someone, but definitely watch it.
• 1:14:38
  And again, it's entertainment.
• 1:14:40
  This is not historically accurate, telling it so you know exactly what happened.
• 1:14:45
  No, this is entertainment.
• 1:14:46
  Getting this, you know, history and background incentive
• 1:14:48
  for a period of his life.
• 1:14:50
  It's definitely worth the watch.
• 1:14:51
  I will say that.
• 1:14:52
  I guess my last question would be, Is there anything about the series, plot,
• 1:14:56
  character, theme, or style, thought that you have, note that you made,
• 1:15:00
  Eric, that you don't feel like we've covered in the conversation today?
• 1:15:03
  No, because what I don't want to do is spoil it for people, especially
• 1:15:06
  for those that haven't watched yet or planning to, didn't know that it
• 1:15:11
  released on the 29th of November, or have been anxiously awaiting for it,
• 1:15:14
  or want to learn more about Senna.
• 1:15:15
  I want you to enjoy it the way it is, and then Go about and do your own research.
• 1:15:20
  Go back to some primary sources.
• 1:15:22
  Go back to the F1 TV channel.
• 1:15:24
  Watch some of the old races.
• 1:15:25
  Watch Suzuka in the late 80s and 90s and the battles against pros.
• 1:15:29
  How all that stuff played out and how the media covered it.
• 1:15:31
  The journalist character is a real magazine.
• 1:15:33
  Autosport.
• 1:15:34
  Exactly.
• 1:15:35
  Yeah.
• 1:15:35
  Go back and watch the documentary from 2010, which is absolutely excellent.
• 1:15:39
  Just use this as a jumping off point to other things.
• 1:15:43
  If you're an inquisitive person and want to know about a really, really
• 1:15:47
  important era in Formula One racing.
• 1:15:49
  Thank you, Eric.
• 1:15:50
  So I'll leave our listeners with this.
• 1:15:52
  And again, in the spirit of not spoiling it for those that haven't seen it,
• 1:15:56
  we're going to have a collection of additional supporting information in
• 1:16:00
  the Grand Touring Magazine in issue 31.
• 1:16:02
  It'll come out alongside of the episode, but I also encourage you to
• 1:16:05
  go back and check out johnsommers.
• 1:16:07
  net and some of the articles that John has written about his day.
• 1:16:10
  Time following the Senna story, being a Tamburello photographs of the
• 1:16:14
  Andy Warhol picture that he talked about earlier, you know, things like
• 1:16:17
  that, but also understand that it is a fictional mini series based
• 1:16:21
  on Ayrton Senna, De Silva's life.
• 1:16:23
  He's a Brazilian racing legend.
• 1:16:24
  He won the formula one championship three times.
• 1:16:26
  It's available on Netflix for you to binge and enjoy.
• 1:16:29
  It's six hours or so long broken into six episodes.
• 1:16:33
  So I just want to remind people to never stop learning and to really enjoy this.
• 1:16:38
  Almost unmatched era in Formula One racing.
• 1:16:45
  We hope you enjoyed another awesome episode of Brake Fix Podcast brought
• 1:16:49
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• 1:16:52
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• 1:16:54
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