Latest / The Daily Writer / 5 Ways to Improve Your Book Design | Kaycee Parker

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5 Ways to Improve Your Book Design | Kaycee Parker · The Daily Writer

0:05
SPEAKER_02: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and your income as a writer.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: So you finished writing that book that's been on your heart and your mind for a long time.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: You've put a lot of time, planning, and energy into crafting the very best book possible.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: You've considered your business goals and how the book is going to help you achieve those.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: You've also thought about your reader's journey and how your book can help them as well.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, now that you've written the book, that's only part of the journey of bringing this amazing book to life.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: And one of the areas that many writers don't think about much is the actual design of the book.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: And what I'm talking about is the cover and interior formatting.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, as writers, we like to focus on the words and the storytelling.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: That's what we do.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: We are writers after all.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: We work in words, that is our currency.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: However, the design of your book, in other words, the way that it looks when people look at the cover and when they look at the interior formatting, the design has a huge impact on your reader's experience, not to mention how you're going to market the book and how it's going to be perceived by your ideal reader.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm really excited to bring you this conversation with my good friend Casey Parker.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: Casey is a graphic designer and writer who's been freelance designing for various clients across the country for over 10 years.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: She published her first devotional book in 2023 titled Devotions on Diabetes A 30 Day Journey to Anchor Your Soul.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, you can grab a copy by going to devotionsondiabetes.com/slash book.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: Casey enjoys cover design and interior formatting, but more than anything, she loves to help bring a book to life for authors.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: In today's conversation, we dive into five ways to improve the design of your book.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: And this is based on her excellent free guide, which walks you through each of these steps in detail.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: And you can grab this guide by going to kpcommunications.net slash bookdesign.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: And there will be a link in the show notes.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: Now, I do want to say that even though we're walking through these five steps here in this conversation, don't let that be where you stop with this topic.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: Make sure and grab this free download.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: The cool thing is that it's not just a lead magnet or a free download that she has kind of just slapped together.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: She's actually put a lot of time and thought into not just writing this great free resource for authors, but also designing it.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: It's one of the best looking resources that I've seen in a long time.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: It's not very long, but it looks really great.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: And it's going to walk you through five essential ways to improve the design of your book.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: And of course, that's something that you want.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: You want your book to look good and to not put off readers by being a poorly designed book.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: So speaking of that, let me just say this as plainly as I can.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: And if you're listening to this and you've heard my heart for you before, you know that I care about you as an author.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: I want the best for you.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: So let me say this with as much love in my heart as I possibly can.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: And it's this I see a lot of self-published authors publish books with mediocre or even terrible covers and formatting that doesn't look good.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Now I love you guys, you know that I just want the best for you, but please do not let your book go out the door.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Having put all of this time and emotional energy and uh thinking behind your book, don't let it go out the door with bad design or a book cover.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: It's going to really kill the success of your book if the ideas and the writing is good, but the design is not.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: So I hope you're not offended by that.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, as the Bible says, I'm just speaking the truth in love.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: So, with that said, please listen to the wisdom that you're going to hear from my good friend and an excellent graphic designer, Casey Parker.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: So, Casey, let's start here.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, viewers just heard your bio.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: You're obviously very accomplished as a designer, uh, and you're really, really good at what you do.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: I've seen a lot of your work and you're you're really gifted.
4:05
SPEAKER_02: So I'd love to start here.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us about your story and how you got into design?
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm always curious, A, about people's journeys as a whole, but in the in your journey as well, I'm super curious.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you become a designer?
4:22
SPEAKER_02: Because it's such a specific thing, and you're so gifted at what you do.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious how you wound up where you are today.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for having me on and for all the encouragement.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: That was very kind of you.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, yes, I have been freelance designing now for 10 years.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: And I started this right after we had our first child.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: And I decided, okay, I had been working uh full time prior to that, and uh just wasn't feeling like I was able to be a great wife, great mom, great employee, great.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Like it was, it just felt like it was too much for me.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: And so at the time I decided I want to scale back and I just want to do some design work on my own.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it took off.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: And it now that the kids are in school, uh, it's not part-time, which is good.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I started 10 years ago doing that.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Prior, I spent several years in a combination of communication roles.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: So I was a marketing director, um, I was a PR director, um, just different uh different things that sort of led to being able to combine all that into what I do today.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: So you've really done it all.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: In many places.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: What do they say?
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, jack of all trades, master of none.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: That's why I feel most days.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: I think all of us do, probably.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Probably.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: But that that that's also part of running your own business is you have to wear a variety of hats.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm curious before we get into really more the specific topic of this conversation, which is book design, I'm curious your thoughts on your life now, working from home full time versus kind of your previous life where you because you weren't working from home all the time in your previous roles, correct?
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: No, I was on site working five days a week.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: I I love it.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing I feel like people that work from home um and run their own business doing freelance or something similar, like like you do.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: I feel like you have to be driven.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it just doesn't work.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: And so you have to have that inner drive to make it work and wear all those hats.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: You have to be the one bringing in the business and accountant and the everything, you know, that goes along with design.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: That is one of the things, not to get too far off course, because I do have a topic to get to, but that is one of the the interesting things that I have found working from home the last three years or so, you know, before that I worked at a church, worked at college for a really long time.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: And I think when you are a part of structures like a church or a college or an organization or a business, you don't really realize how much of what you do is actually sort of driven by somebody else, by their schedule, by their, you know, agenda, by the responsibilities that they have been asking of you.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: And then when those sort of structures are removed, then you you have to kind of come face to face with your own uh drive or sometimes a lack of it, you know, on kind of on your if when you have off days, it's like, man, I just ain't feeling it today.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: But as a business owner working from home, you have to muster that up somehow.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: And that's that can really be a challenge.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you have felt that before.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, absolutely.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: There's a feeling I think when you work for yourself that it's just you.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: And so if you're not doing it, no one else is.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you've got it, you've got to figure it out.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: And I guess ultimately it's kind of a balance of um how how are you wired as a person and what do you like the best and how do you function the best?
8:13
SPEAKER_02: For me, I would rather face the challenges of having to sort of muster up my own motivation and and construct my own schedule, but then also have the freedom that comes with that rather than have the structure of working for an organization, but then not have freedom.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: I think freedom to me outweighs almost everything else.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Same.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, with little kids, freedom is somebody in the family has to have freedom because you just don't know what's gonna happen.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: But yes, I've I've said before, I don't know that I could go back to working, you know, in corporate America.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't think there are enough commas in that paycheck to I I'll take that on myself to figure it out and to get things done.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I would much rather do that and have the freedom.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like you with that.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we need to, I guess that's why people hire coaches, you know, ultimately is because then you're bringing in kind of that structure back into your life and that accountability and those kinds of things.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: So but I've done coaching before, and you know, we all have have in some regard.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: So all right, let's dive into our topic for today.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I could I could just way off course on things easily.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: No, I can check out the code.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Frequently have heard.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: So let's dive into our topic, which is five ways to improve your book design.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, and of course, I want to point people to your excellent free download that you are making available, and we'll share more about where to find that later in the conversation.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: But in this resource, you talk about essentially five ways to really make sure that your book is designed well.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: And I love this resource.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: I it also looks good.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: So you there's kind of a very meta thing going on on here where you've put this thing together, and the info is not only really helpful, but it legit looks really good.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: So great job on that.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: I feel like when you're a designer and you you provide things to other people, it probably needs to look good.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's true.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: You don't want to put it put a document on a design, it's like you know, Times New Roman 12 point font.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Just based just words.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like the stuff I send to clients, which is that's exactly what it is.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: It's those documents.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I promise it's gonna look good later.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: It's just a boring document right now.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: But let's dive into these because this is really, really helpful stuff, and I know this is gonna be a big help to our listeners as well.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: So the first way to improve your book design, and I'm just gonna we're just gonna sort of talk through these, is research the competition in your niche.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm choosing to pronounce this niche and not niche.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: I've had multiple conversations with my 20-year-old about how this should be properly pronounced.
10:51
SPEAKER_02: He says it is niche.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm st I'm from Missouri, so I'm gonna butcher everything and call it niche.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: I've always said niche.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: I know, I have to.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: My grammar teacher said ch says change mindset too.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: Let's go with that.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: So, what's going on here with this idea of researching competition in your niche?
11:11
SPEAKER_02: I guess first of all, why would we want to do that?
11:14
SPEAKER_02: And then how do you go about doing that?
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, those are great questions.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: So, why would you want to research your competition?
11:21
SPEAKER_00: First of all, I think it's important as an author to know what you're getting yourself into.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Because once your book is out there, it's out there with all the others in your niche.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: And so it's important to know who's out there, right?
11:32
SPEAKER_00: When you play sports, you're watching video of the other team, right?
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Because you want to know what you're getting into.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And so it's the same kind of a concept.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, it also can help drive your decisions.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: And so when you see what's out there already, you can make decisions accordingly to help your book stand out.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I think it's super important to do that.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, as far as how to do it, just search online.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can go onto Amazon and and type in a keyword that is the the overarching idea of the book, and here they come all the all the images, and you can do your research right there.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, and if it's not Amazon, it's Google or it's whatever you want to use, but just use some keywords and search online.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Go to the bookstore, look what's on the shelf.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Um fortunately these days, research seems to be pretty easy because you do have those resources.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: So that's how to do it.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: But the why I think is even more important because you need to know what's out there and you that needs to help drive your decisions of how to make your book stand out and be more marketable.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: So, one thing that you that I've heard you talk about before is this idea of paying attention to the color scheme, to the typography, to the design, to the type of images that are used on the cover.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: What what is the balance between fitting within that niche but also doing something different?
12:59
SPEAKER_02: Because you don't want to just outright steal a design from another book in the same niche, obviously.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Um but we also don't want to go crazy outside of that because then it's not gonna look like it belongs in that category.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: So, what's as a designer, how do you figure out what the balance between those two things is?
13:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: No, that's huge.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Because you're right, you want it to stand out, but you don't want it to look like the outlier that's the weird book that no one wants to read.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: So the struggle is on one end, you're looking exactly like the book next to it, and that's not good because then it's just the book next to it, and people don't realize it's a different book.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there are things that you can do within the research.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, once you see what's out there, you can take a look at everything, research everything, and decide okay, this is where I'm gonna go color-wise, based on what we know about color, what is out there in color.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm gonna do with imagery, because this is what supports my book, and start to put those pieces together and see where you land and adjust as needed.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: So, so there is this thing of really paying attention to color because uh, like for example, one thing that you that you talk about in your your handout is you give some examples, uh, and this is a specific category of books, and you pointed out that there's a lot of books that have a yellow and a blue background.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: So is that is that something that we should really try to mimic?
14:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, if if a bunch of books in your genre have a specific kind of color background, is that kind of a shortcut to the reader that, hey, this book goes in this category?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: It could be, doesn't have to be.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, so what you're talking about is, you know, when I went on to do some research to create this download, I just picked something.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: And so I picked how to learn speed reading.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: It was just something that was just on there.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: And if you look at all those, it is a bunch of yellow and blue.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: It is so I why I have no idea.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: So honestly, um, I would not create a cover that has a blue background.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: I just wouldn't, because that is gonna mend meld way too closely into the other books that it's gonna just look like the other books.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I would do something that is a combination, but I would be I would be bent toward let's do something different to make it stand out.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that I think that makes a lot of sense.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: Now let me take a little 30-second side word here.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm just curious your opinion on that.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: How do we explain sometimes books that are really, really successful, but they have a really bland cover design or even a bad, what I would characterize as a bad cover design.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: Is there a sense in which sometimes a book becomes so popular that it doesn't matter what the cover is, people are just gonna ignore that because it has such good word of mouth or it's a great story or whatever?
16:05
SPEAKER_00: It can.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: It certainly can.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, think about some classics and think, you know, I mean, there are some great books, um, but I wouldn't put your eggs in that basket.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Because you're kind of counting on your book being like this massive bestseller, uh, even if the cover's not good.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: So that's like a huge risk that you're taking.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you have a split second with your cover for that reader to make a decision.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: And so I would not put my eggs in the basket of, oh, I can have a mediocre cover and it'll still sell.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: And that's a little risky to me.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it surely is.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: That that's really that's really true.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, let's go on to um item number two that you mentioned here in this really cool download, which is make strong choices for your cover.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: And you talk about color typeface imagery and then prioritizing what the prime uh I'm paraphrasing here, prioritizing what the primary element on the cover is.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: Um I think this is it's it's stuff that most of us don't think about as authors, because we're just typing our stories and writing our books, and we don't really think about the psychology of what is going on in this in this on book covers a lot of times.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: Um what can you tell us about this idea of making strong choices for your cover?
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Why is that important and and what does that mean in practical terms?
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: So, like I said, readers decide in a split second.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna pick up the book at the bookstore and turn it over and look at the back or flip it open?
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Or are they gonna put it in their cart online to buy it?
17:40
SPEAKER_00: You've got a split second.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: And so what you decide to put on the cover has to be enticing.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: You have to lay the groundwork for what your book is about in the color, the typeface, the imagery that you're choosing, um, and do it in a way that makes it um enticing to the reader.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: So that is that's the overall why do we want to make strong choices for the cover?
18:07
SPEAKER_00: That's why your reader is gonna decide in a snap.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: And this is also a great reason to hire a professional designer because the vast majority of authors really don't have a clue how to do this.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: And as much as I love Canva, I think it's also um, you know, it's kind of like a power tool.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: So I went over the weekend, uh, we're doing some home remodeling stuff.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: I bought a miter saw.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: It's a great tool to have at home, but you can also abuse really powerful tools and you can really do a lot of damage if you don't know how to use them properly.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: So as a man, you know, I'm sort of like, I don't need this stupid manual.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like middling with how to how do I put the blade on this thing?
18:47
SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, I probably should read the manual, you know.
18:50
unknown: Right.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: Because I was like 15 minutes in to try and figure it out on my own, which was dumb.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: But it can be really hard as an author to know how do you make a cover striking?
19:00
SPEAKER_02: This this is why designers exist in the world.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: So us authors don't have to figure that out.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: So if I can be honest, the last book I published, I hired someone to design my cover.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm a graphic designer and I hired someone to design my cover.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know here's why.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: I did, I did.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Here's why, though.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not because I couldn't have designed the cover, but I wanted someone else to do this because as the author, I was going through the process of finishing up editing.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: I was going through the process of the interior layout formatting, all that kind of stuff.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: I felt like I was down in the weeds and I needed someone who could take the 30,000-foot view and create something that would be a striking cover that would just I could wrap around what I was doing on the interior at the time, and it would it would make the a great package.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: You're talking about your devotions on diabetes.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: Cover?
20:01
SPEAKER_02: It was a great cover.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she did a fantastic job.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love it.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I even hired someone.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Should could I have saved money by doing it myself?
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: But that wasn't what my priority was.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: My priority was I need a cover, but I also need to be doing this, and so I can outsource the cover so that I can get through this without it waiting on me.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: That really says a lot about your uh what am I trying to say?
20:33
SPEAKER_02: It says a lot about your integrity as a designer that you really stand behind what you're talking about.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, that that's like an editor not doing their own editing when they're writing.
20:42
SPEAKER_02: We can do it.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: Could you do it?
20:44
SPEAKER_02: Yes, but is it good to have somebody else's perspective?
20:46
SPEAKER_02: Of course.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: Now, was that hard for you as a designer to submit yourself to the process of somebody else designing your cover?
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Or did you find it what was it more stressful for you, or was it um you were like, man, I'm so glad I I can get this off my shoulders that somebody else can do it.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: So I think being a designer, I'm super fortunate that I have colleagues that are designers.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I trusted the designer doing it.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I had no qualms.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: She sent me several, you know, good options.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: And it really was, oh man, I could do this or I could do that, or you know, it it was it was a wonderful experience.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: And good for me to be on the other side of it because I'm not on the other side of it very often.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: And so that was good perspective for me.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: But uh I think it was because I trusted her.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think in order to trust your designer, you have to be able to see their work and communicate as much as you can up front to that designer and just trust the process.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: The other thing I will throw in, and this is just added bonus, because I was having a conversation about this just the other day.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Um Um, you have got when you're thinking about your cover, the best way that you can serve yourself is to stop looking at your book through your own eyes.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: You need to look at it from your potential reader's eyes.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: And so you have to stand in their shoes when you're thinking about your cover.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: And it isn't necessarily the image that you really like personally or the color that is your favorite cut, like that doesn't matter.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I hope that doesn't come across as being blunt, but but your personal preference doesn't necessarily matter in your book design.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: It's what will your reader see and what will grab them.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: That's what's important.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: That's really hard.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: It is, yeah.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Unless you're just writing your book because you want your own book on your shelf, great.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: But if you're gonna sell it, yeah, I would you've got to get out of your own head.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's hard.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of authors never, gosh, I hate to sound pessimistic, but a lot of authors don't don't ever make that leap to seeing their book as anything other than just a personal expression of their own story or whatever.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a totally valid thing if that's what somebody wants.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: But if you want your book to be taken seriously in the marketplace of ideas and products, then that's a whole nother ball of wax.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: That's a hard emotional shift for a lot of creative people to make too.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, I've poured my heart and soul into this thing, but then that thing has to be turned into a sellable product at some point.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: That's when you've got to put your business hat on.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: Let's go on to uh item number three you mentioned uh in your resource, which is being intentional about your back cover.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: And man, I feel like we need a little funeral dirge or something for back covers because they get neglected so often.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: So now is the time to let these back covers shine because they they're almost like an afterthought so much of the time.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: But walk us through a couple things that we should keep in mind regarding the back cover of our book, if you can.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: So I do think you're right.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: I think the back cover seems to be an afterthought because you get your cover, you get your interior together, you know, as the author, and then oh, I need a back cover.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's it, you're right, it's almost like an afterthought.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, but think about as someone who purchases a book.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: If I'm looking for books, that's the second place I look.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: I flip it over if I'm in the bookstore, or I click on the back image if I'm on like that.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: Is selling point number two.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: And so it is absolutely crucial.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I just encourage authors to include what's vital.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Flooding it with words is just a bad choice.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: No one's gonna read that on the back cover as a second selling point.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: They're gonna want to read all the words on the inside, but they want to know why this book needs to be their next purchase in a very digestible way.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: But first, I want to take a second to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, The Word Wizard.
25:07
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25:14
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25:23
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25:37
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25:44
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25:48
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25:52
SPEAKER_02: Now back to the conversation.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you recommend that people do for that?
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Because really we're talking about copywriting here and or writing marketing copy.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: I know the label copywriting gets applied to a lot of different things.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: But but essentially it is copywriting because it's it's copy or text designed to sell something.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: Um what are your thoughts on doing that yourself, or maybe uh having AI help with that, or uh having a professional do that?
26:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, people have different thoughts on that.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, as a designer, what are some different options that you think people should consider?
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I first place that I would go would be my editor.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Because they've read the book, they've been through it, it's all, you know, they know the book.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: And if they understand what they're editing, then they can shift their perspective and say, okay, what does this reader need to know?
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: And and are able to write it in sort of a here's a couple sentences, here's a couple bullet points, author picture bio, right?
26:58
SPEAKER_00: That kind of that kind of an approach.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: So an editor would be the first person that I would look to.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: I know some people do hire professional um there are actually people who do this for a living.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: They, you know, write book descriptions, which is like super niche, but man, I imagine if you write book descriptions for a living, like that person can have a killer, a killer instinct for what's gonna sell and what's not gonna sell.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: I I think that's really interesting.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, there are a lot of options, of course, for um, you know, how are we gonna do that?
27:31
SPEAKER_02: One thing I wanted to ask about is the QR codes on books, which I am seeing more nowadays.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, that feels like something that we all should be including, isn't it?
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I absolutely would include it.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: I've got one on the back of mine.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: And what does that go to?
27:49
SPEAKER_00: So that goes to my website, um, the book, the book page on my website.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: So, and then from there you can get more information about the book.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: You can see interior layouts, um, and then you can purchase the book.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: There's a link to purchase it.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: So it's basically like more information.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think it's like the next point.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: If you are online or if you're in the bookstore and you just want more than what the back cover gives you, okay.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: That's where I would go is a QR code.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's real easy just to link that up to the website, point people in the right direction, and give them that next step.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Because when they're looking at your back cover in the bookstore, the choice at the end of looking the back cover is keep it and buy it or put it on the shelf.
28:37
unknown: Yeah.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: And that gives them an extra step if they want it.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Where do people go to get QR codes?
28:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there are QR code generators online.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can just search QR code generator and there are free ones.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: Does it matter which one that you use?
28:54
SPEAKER_00: No, I've I mean, I've used different ones.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: The one caveat is in the case that you are using a QR code generator that isn't just a here's the URL, click to make the code, download the code.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: If you have an account with them or something like, you know, if that lapses, your QR code may be defective.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: So I've never done that.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: I've always just used a free like put in the website and click to download the code and you're done.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: How does that work?
29:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh I've used Canva for a few of these and it works great.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, how does that work in terms of is there ever I'm sure there's there's a mathematical equation out there that determines like what are the possible numb number of QR code images that are possible in the universe or something, you know?
29:48
SPEAKER_02: Um isn't there a possibility that that the same QR code could point to two different things?
29:55
SPEAKER_02: Like what's the possibility of two QR code generators producing the same image?
30:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that that is and that now that's pointing to two different things.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: Is that even a possibility?
30:05
SPEAKER_00: I had never considered it.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: I love how you think though.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there are QR code generators that you can insert an icon or something into the code.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: Really?
30:18
SPEAKER_00: And so that may so that may make it more unique.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the other thing that I always do too is I always list the website beside the QR code on the background.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's genius.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: So in the case that this takes you to text preparation or something that's totally not the book, um, you've got the website right there.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: So I I just I use that kind of as a fail-safe, but that makes sense.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: Is there any kind of a I feel like I'm getting kind of geeky about this?
30:50
SPEAKER_02: So so is it possible to generate a custom QR code that like it has a certain image in it, or like could I insert the letter K in there and it would show up somehow?
31:01
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's possible.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: I was looking at doing that for the latest book cover that I did.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Um I was putting together like a business card that had a QR code on it.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: The author could use the business card to promote the book.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: It had a picture of the book and just a one phrase, okay, you know, and then a QR code.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: And um I was looking at putting his icon from his business logo in the QR code.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I ended up not doing it because I did it looked wonky the way that the icon worked with it, but anyway, it's possible.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: Because I mean I at the end of the day, it's like a highly pixelated image.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: So it's not like it's gonna look great, you know, if you're trying to like put something really detailed in there.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can also change the colors of the corners and like whatever.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Oh, nice.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: We can geek out for days on QR codes.
31:59
SPEAKER_02: It just seems like there should be a centralized database of QR codes so that you know, like with ISBN numbers, there's one centralized location.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: You can only get ISBN numbers through that one place, which I'm not sure how that's even possible because that is like the definition of a monopoly, and they're ridiculously priced.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, literally, this is a number.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Why is this costing so much?
32:23
SPEAKER_02: That's another bottle wax, but yeah, um Yeah, like those should be way cheaper given what they actually know the fact that doesn't seem like that's hard to generate, you know, in 2024.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, it just seems like there should be something with QR codes that's a similar database.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there is or not, but I I guess the the the number of potential QR codes is so high that probably that's not even a worry.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh right.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: So okay, that makes sense.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Um let's go on to item number four, which is okay, so item number one on here is recharging the competition.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh, number two is making strong cover choices.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh, number three is being intentional about your back cover, and then number four is making your entire book cohesive, which here you're talking about basically taking the design elements and running those throughout the book so that it's not just a random, you know, plain looking book, but those images or that typography or other elements are actually present in the book.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: Um why is this an important thing given especially the tools that we have today, like Attica, Sravella, when people can very easily do their own interior formatting?
33:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, why should why should we carry those elements through that and go through the extra time and trouble to do that?
33:35
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: I think it helps set your book apart.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: I really do, because you can pick up tons of books and the interiors, while they look fine, there's nothing that carries any kind of cohesive anything throughout the book.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: So while we've been talking mostly about, you know, front cover, back cover, all that kind of thing that sells the book.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that carrying some sort of a cohesive design through the book really keeps the reader.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's like the special added touch.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Um it it just helps it feel like one package, one experience from interior to exterior of your book.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: Do you notice that as a reader, whenever you have a book that the they've taken some extra care with design versus when they haven't?
34:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: You bet.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's it comes off as like, oh, you cared enough about not just the front cover, but when I'm in chapter six, halfway through this, you know, you cared enough to like bring me back to the cover or bring me back to the overarching theme of this, using artwork.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Um lots of people use icons.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: I've used icons in my book.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: I use some full page imagery, um, just to help keep that theme flowing throughout the whole thing.
35:00
SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: It almost reminds me of um, you know, I know there's I know there's lots of ways to do this, but it reminds me of the the original Harry Potter editions where at the beginning of every chapter they would have a just a little pencil drawing.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember the artist's name, but it just helps set an emotional tone for the Yes.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I recently worked on the design of a book um within the recruiting space, so like a business type book, and it was the the coolest idea.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: You know how the the chapter starts on the right page, so the left page is generally blank, right?
35:40
SPEAKER_00: And he said, I want custom illustrations that are almost like a Dilbert-like cartoon, like a business-like cartoon, and it was the coolest thing.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: And so we made one for every chapter, and it's just this like light-hearted moment before you start into the meat of it.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it can just kind of, like you said, set the tone.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: And how did you have those illustrations made?
36:06
SPEAKER_02: Did you hire an illustrator or did the author know someone, or how did that work?
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I have a couple illustrators on my design team.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And so I just reached out to them and I said, Hey, do you want to draw some Dilberty cartoons?
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And for an illustrator, that's like, yes, happy birthday to me.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was a super fun one.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it was an interesting process because the author recorded some video explaining this is the cartoon.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: So this is the setting.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: There's the water cooler.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: There's two guys talking.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: So it was something that we could then bring to life, put into you know, lines and art.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: So it was just it was really a cool process.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: So let me ask you something about the the total design uh package of the book.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: So I've been having some conversations with people about little short books.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're called mini books, sometimes they're called micro books.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: Basically, these are books under a hundred pages.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: And there's kind of this debate going on.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to say it's a raging debate because you know, writers don't sit around and like rage about these things.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they do passive aggressively, but I've never seen authors get into a fist fight over design.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: That would be kind of fun.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Like a Yellowstone, you know, type type of, you know, cowboys out there duking it out or something.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: But a big point of discussion with microbooks is whether anybody cares that when a book is is like under, let's say 80 pages, because I think 80 pages is the limit on Amazon where you can have print on the actual spine of the book.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: If a book the the advantage of a micro book is that it's let's say 50 pages or 60 pages.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: The advantage is they can read it fast.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: There's an emotional something that people feel when they pick up a little short book and they're like, man, I can read through this fast.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of benefits to that.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: However, you can't have print on the spine of a book that's, I think, under 80 pages on Amazon if you're self-publishing.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: As a designer, what are your thoughts on that?
38:05
SPEAKER_02: Do you care if a book has uh has print on the spine or not?
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, does that come across to you as unprofessional?
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Or I I guess what I'm asking is for people who are considering microbooks, uh, is that something they should care about?
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Is that there there's not gonna be any print on the spine?
38:23
SPEAKER_02: And is does that detract from the professionalism of the book?
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't necessarily think it detracts from professionalism, but I think it detracts a little bit from marketability on a bookshelf because you're not gonna see anything on the spine of that book as it's on a bookshelf.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think there's an opportunity to continue the brand of the book on the spine.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Um and so I always like to use the right typefaces and the right colors and maybe even the continuation of an image or something that catches the eye on the spine of the book.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: And so I prefer to have a spine um on a book just for those reasons.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Um not necessarily that it detracts professionally, because you're right, to pick up a little book, um, and I've done this before, I just did this recently, on it was kind of a how-to.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: And I just read and read and read, you know, and it was it was nice to be able to be like, okay, I know what I'm doing now.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so if that's what you're doing, that's great.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's something to weigh as the author.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: I guess if somebody is self-publishing, probably the the consideration of being on a bookstore shelf is probably less because it's they're probably not focusing on bookstores.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: So but uh it is interesting.
39:47
SPEAKER_02: I've I've got a series uh by a guy who did his name is Tim Grawl.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: He he is um known for helping people launch their books and selling lots of copies.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: There are also some other authors as a part of the series, but it's interesting.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: So they have a series of little short books, they're about 60 pages.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: There's no room on the spine for text, but they've they've continued the the design of the cover to the back cover, and there's like a stripe and a different band of color on the spine.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: And so it is kind of a branding thing, which I think is an interesting way to approach that.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: That can work too.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's go to uh number four or number five here, uh the fifth thing, which is kind of what this is all leading to, is um in your resource, you mentioned considering hiring a professional.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: And walk us through maybe some things that are involved in working with a professional graphic designer like yourself.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you can give us a range of what does it actually cost to have somebody do to have somebody have you do a cover plus the interior design and maybe some ranges as to what they could expect in terms of uh what to budget for something like that, how long the process takes, anything that you can share with us.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: So the the reason that I say this is, you know, like I said before, I hired a professional to do my design for my cover, right?
41:06
SPEAKER_00: The interior I did, and that's what I was doing when the cover was being designed.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like if you can have two things moving forward at a time, you're gonna get this book out, right?
41:16
SPEAKER_00: And at the point that you're looking at interior design, you're ready to have it out.
41:21
unknown: Right?
41:21
SPEAKER_00: You've been through it enough.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, so we've talked a little bit about, you know, the the benefits of that already.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, there's just just like you would hire out an editor, I think it's important to consider hiring out a designer.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's because, like I said before, you've got a split second to sell your book.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: And as much as we're told don't judge a book by its cover, we do.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: And that like that, this is your one chance to look and say, is this my next book?
41:53
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's super important that if you as the author have put this much work into it, it needs and deserves to look good and needs to be the best it can be.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's my stance as a designer who has outsourced her cover.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so here's the other thing that I would say in hiring out a designer, there are lots of things that you're looking at when you're launching a book.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: But there are also within the graphic design of it, there's a lot of things too.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: And so you're looking at print specs, you're looking at margins, you're looking, you know, based on where you're gonna load this to self-publish it.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: But if you're doing your own design, you're responsible for those things.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: And if you're not a designer, that's probably something you've never thought of before.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Because you need to include the right margins and the right bleed so that your cover image wraps around the book.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: You need to go on to Amazon or Ingram or wherever you're publishing it and figure out okay, I've got this many pages.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: And so the spine is going to be these dimensions.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: It's just you, I feel like at that point, you just need someone who gets it already.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: You need a project manager, really.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: So that's my basis for why you need a designer.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: In terms of um costs, like you were asking about.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: So I provide various book design services because I love helping authors.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: It's super amazing to help what is in their head and has been in their head and is now on paper come to reality.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: That's a such a cool thing for me to be able to help people do.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I will offer book cover design, interior layout and formatting, ebook conversion, self publishing service, new author consulting.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: For example, if if you're brand new and just don't know what you are doing and want someone to walk you through it.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Um then, because I'm a graphic designer, I can offer other things like marketing designs.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Like book mock-ups and social graphics, and I'll help you create a lead magnet for your email uh list, things like that.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, book cover design, that cost is determined after a call with the author, but it generally will range from a thousand to fourteen hundred from start to finish, and that includes front, spine, and back cover.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, interior, if we've if you've got like 40,000 words in the book, I would say 1200 to 1600.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: And that includes taking some of that imagery from your cover and including that into the book design.
44:37
SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: So all of that, like I said, is determined really after a call with you because it's important to know really what you're looking for in order to know the scope of the job from a design perspective.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's just a ballpark in case that's helpful.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, what else did you ask about turn times?
44:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how long is the process?
44:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, two things.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: How long is the process generally?
45:02
SPEAKER_02: Kind of from start to finish, but also at what point in the writing process should somebody engage a designer?
45:09
SPEAKER_02: I assume earlier is probably better, even before you have the book finished.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes, before you have the book finished.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: So I always say once your editor has gone through it and you know from an editing perspective, then it's time to do the cover.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: Once you've handed that off to the editor, it's time to do the cover because you're gonna want to start marketing that cover before it's available, right?
45:34
SPEAKER_00: So I would say as soon as as soon as that editing process happens, I would start with the designer right away.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: And that way your editing can happen while the cover design is happening, which is what I did, which was really helpful.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: It seems to speed things up.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: I would say for a cover after the initial call and and we know exactly what we're doing, I would say two to four weeks start to finish.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: And that really is based on the number of edits that are requested.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's kind of why there's a range there.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: For interior page layout, I would say three to maybe five or six weeks start to finish.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: Again, that depends on edits requested and also the length of the manuscript.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, in case that's helpful.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but then we would go through after it's all all laid out, then we would go through, okay, let's send this back to your proofreader because there are things that you catch when it's in the layout that you didn't catch.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: When it was just in a Word document.
46:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: Um so we go through that again because you need to love this book that you're doing.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: You spent way too much time on it not to love it and know that it's as best as it can be.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
46:47
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: And I know for for some for some listeners, you know, they're like, oh, this is that's totally, you know, I'm happy to invest in my book.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: And I I do talk to a lot of authors though who seem surprised that it costs something to put a book out into the world because of all the tools that we have available, you know, we've got AI now, which is a blessing, but also a curse in some ways.
47:11
SPEAKER_02: Um I I guess uh I don't personally look at it as a curse if you use the correct way.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: There are ways to use AI and ways to not use it.
47:19
SPEAKER_02: That's all another podcast episode, I'm sure.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:22
SPEAKER_02: But but I think part of this overall picture is it gets to the heart of what is this whole podcast about?
47:27
SPEAKER_02: The profitable writer.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: So if people are just looking at what they're spending on their book as like, oh, I'm I'm losing all this money, that's not the proper way to think about it.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: We want to make your book profitable.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: We want to have other things around your business.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, you're in our profitable writer community.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: We've just done two or three calls this month on income streams and how to monetize that.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: So this is an investment into a really, really valuable asset.
47:53
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't want to show a dirty, cruddy looking house to the world.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: Why would we want to do that with our books?
48:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: You're with design especially, you're putting a face on the message that you've created.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: And so that's is is just something to be really intentional about.
48:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't ever want to be the the author that other people are whispering about.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: Like, have you ever been someplace and people's people are like, hey, I'm giving out copies of my book, and um, you know, they're handing them out and everybody's ooing and awing over it, but then later they're all kind of whispering, like, oh my gosh, this cover is so bad.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, I wish they would have hired somebody to do that.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's happened.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: I've heard I've seen that happen a million times.
48:35
SPEAKER_02: You probably have too.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: And we don't want to be the person that people are whispering about in the hallways.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: No, no, but you know, we want we want it to sell.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: And books with cruddy covers just don't tend to sell well because if you're put the face that you're putting on your message is cruddy, then that tells the reader that your message is cruddy.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Not that you're saying that, that's just the connection that's being made.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: If if the outside is not good, neither's the inside.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: That's what they're thinking.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just logic, uh, whether it's fair or not, or true or not, is another story.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: But that I think that's what happens.
49:11
SPEAKER_02: And the covers a shorthand.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, people have to make quick decisions.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: So the cover is how we make those decisions most of the time.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
49:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, Casey, this has been really fun and informative.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: I've learned a lot from you today.
49:24
SPEAKER_02: I know that our listeners have as well.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: How can people get in touch with you to find out about your design services?
49:29
SPEAKER_02: And if they're looking for a great designer, I highly recommend you.
49:33
SPEAKER_02: I think you're amazing at what you do, and plus just easy to work with and very chill, which I think is really important.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, in a world around this that's so chaotic and unpredictable.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: I think it's cool to work with people who just they just have a chill vibe.
49:47
unknown: Right.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that's important.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: So um, how can people get in touch with you?
49:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you can get in touch with me through my website.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: It's kpcommunications.net.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: And there is a book design services uh tab on the menu that has tons of information.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: It's got the free download that we were talking about today.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can reach out to me through my website as well.
50:11
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm excited to be working with you as well on my dad's Vietnam memoir.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh that comes out this fall.
50:18
SPEAKER_02: So speaking of authors who need to get busy with things, that includes me as well.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: So I can get you stuff about the book and get rolling on that process as well.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: That'll be really good.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much for making time to be a guest on the show today.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: This has been really, really fun.
50:35
SPEAKER_02: And again, I just so appreciate your way of working with people, your your servant's heart and your giftedness and helping make authors shine.
50:45
SPEAKER_02: I think it's really, really valuable.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: So thanks for the amazing work that you're doing in the world.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: I love what I do.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: And to get to help authors is a joy.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely a joy.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
50:57
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: Thanks again.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I enjoyed talking with Casey about five ways to improve your book design.
51:07
SPEAKER_02: Again, I want to encourage you to go to her website, which is kpcommunications.net slash bookdesign.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: Make sure and visit that link to download this free guide.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: It looks good and it's really, really helpful.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: This is actually one of those guides, if you have a printer at home, I would encourage you to not just download it, but if you can, print it off.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be a resource that you're going to come back to time and time again as you write not only that next book, but ones that are on your heart and that you're going to release in the future as well.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, a huge thanks to Casey for taking her time to share her wisdom and expertise here on this episode.
51:41
SPEAKER_02: And if you're looking for a great designer, I would recommend you hire Casey.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: She's really, really good.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: She's very easy to work with and super talented.
51:48
SPEAKER_02: So make sure and check that out.
51:50
SPEAKER_02: You can find more about her designs and her services at kpcommunications.net.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: As always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.